IRC log of aria on 2014-05-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:00:54 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:54 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/05-aria-irc
17:00:56 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs member
17:00:56 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #aria
17:00:58 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:00:58 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
17:00:59 [trackbot]: Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:00:59 [trackbot]: Date: 05 May 2014
17:01:06 [janina]: agenda?
17:01:11 [Zakim]: +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:01:12 [janina]: zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:12 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft], ??P14, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:01:20 [Zakim]: +Cooper
17:01:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]: chair: Rich
17:01:45 [Zakim]: +[GVoice]
17:01:57 [clown]: zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:01:57 [Zakim]: +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:02:01 [janina]: zakim, ??P14 is me
17:02:01 [Zakim]: +janina; got it
17:02:08 [clown]: zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:02:08 [Zakim]: ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:02:11 [richardschwerdtfeger]: meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:02:14 [richardschwerdtfeger]: chair: Rich
17:02:42 [Zakim]: +Bryan_Garaventa
17:03:14 [chrisgallello]: It might be me - I'm joining in to discuss annotations within ARIA
17:03:20 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
17:05:29 [LJWatson]: LJWatson has joined #aria
17:06:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014May/0014.html
17:06:43 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:06:50 [MichaelC]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014May/0014.html
17:07:08 [jcraig]: jcraig has joined #aria
17:07:25 [LJWatson]: zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
17:07:25 [Zakim]: +LJWatson; got it
17:07:30 [MichaelC]: zakim, Microsoft Chris_Gallello
17:07:30 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'Microsoft Chris_Gallello', MichaelC
17:07:43 [jcraig]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:07:43 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft], janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson
17:07:46 [Zakim]: +Suzann_Keohane
17:07:51 [jcraig]: Zakim, Apple has jcraig
17:07:51 [Zakim]: +jcraig; got it
17:08:00 [MichaelC]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:08:00 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft], janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane
17:08:03 [Zakim]: [Apple] has jcraig
17:08:08 [MichaelC]: zakim, Microsoft is Chris_Gallello
17:08:08 [Zakim]: +Chris_Gallello; got it
17:08:28 [MichaelC]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:08:28 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Chris_Gallello, janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane
17:08:30 [Zakim]: [Apple] has jcraig
17:09:10 [Susann_Keohane]: Susann_Keohane has joined #aria
17:09:43 [Zakim]: +Joanie_Diggs
17:10:17 [clown]: scribenick: clown
17:10:40 [clown]: Topic: ISSUE-655 Consider annotation roles
17:10:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]: ttps://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
17:11:02 [clown]: CG: I'm on the office online team
17:11:07 [clown]: CG: The problem:
17:11:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
17:11:27 [clown]: CG: There are things like comments, footnotes, spelling errors, etc. that we consider to be annotations.
17:11:42 [clown]: CG: We need to mark them up so that a SR can handle them.
17:12:05 [clown]: CG: If you are familiar with MS Word, comments work much the same way with office online.
17:12:30 [clown]: CG: It renders as ancillary text, and I sighted user can decide whether to read it.
17:12:41 [clown]: CG: Would like similar behaviour in the case of ATs.
17:12:54 [Zakim]: + +1.215.286.aaaa
17:12:58 [clown]: CG: There is a link to a position paper in the issue that describes this a bit more.
17:13:09 [clown]: CG: In particular, extensions to aria.
17:13:18 [clown]: CG: Three new aria tags.
17:13:35 [clown]: CG: Aria-annonationtype — a localized name of the annotation type.
17:13:52 [Zakim]: + +49.171.205.aabb
17:13:59 [clown]: CG: For example, for a comment, there is the comment text, and then around it is <?>
17:14:15 [Zakim]: +James_Nurthen
17:14:33 [andrewlarkin]: andrewlarkin has joined #aria
17:14:36 [jamesn]: jamesn has joined #aria
17:14:55 [richardschwerdtfeger]: zakim, +1.215 is Andrew Larkin
17:14:55 [Zakim]: I don't understand '+1.215 is Andrew Larkin', richardschwerdtfeger
17:15:08 [jamesn]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:15:08 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Chris_Gallello, janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane, Joanie_Diggs, +1.215.286.aaaa,
17:15:09 [MichaelC]: zakim, aaaa is Andrew_Larkin
17:15:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]: zakim, aaaa is Andrew Larkin
17:15:12 [Zakim]: ... +49.171.205.aabb, James_Nurthen
17:15:12 [Zakim]: [Apple] has jcraig
17:15:12 [Zakim]: +Andrew_Larkin; got it
17:15:12 [Zakim]: +Stefan_Schnabel
17:15:12 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'aaaa is Andrew Larkin', richardschwerdtfeger
17:15:15 [jcraig]: Zakim, drop aabb
17:15:15 [Zakim]: +49.171.205.aabb is being disconnected
17:15:16 [Zakim]: - +49.171.205.aabb
17:15:47 [jcraig]: Zakim, who is on the call?
17:15:47 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Chris_Gallello, janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane, Joanie_Diggs, Andrew_Larkin,
17:15:50 [Zakim]: ... James_Nurthen, Stefan_Schnabel
17:15:50 [Zakim]: [Apple] has jcraig
17:16:05 [Stefan]: Stefan has joined #aria
17:16:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/states_and_properties#aria-invalid
17:17:41 [jamesn]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:41 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/05-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:17:44 [clown]: JC: The localized annotation name, is something like the localized role name we are currently discussing.
17:17:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
17:18:07 [clown]: CG: where can I catch up on the work being done on that?
17:18:28 [clown]: CG: That sounds like a way to implement this.
17:18:28 [Zakim]: + +49.171.205.aacc
17:18:50 [clown]: RS: We actually use the "grammar" and "spelling" for each of the text elements.
17:19:01 [jamesn]: q?
17:19:02 [clown]: RS: It was working fine, but you are seeing limitations?
17:19:03 [jamesn]: q+
17:19:13 [clown]: CG: Yes, but we should check it again.
17:19:32 [clown]: RS: A problem is that some AT vendors have not modified their code given the recent updates.
17:20:02 [clown]: CG: The other two proposed tags also mark up the connection the text and its annotation.
17:20:20 [clown]: CG: You can think of these tags like aria-desribedby.
17:20:37 [clown]: CG: aria-annotatedby would identify the comment div on the page.
17:20:53 [richardschwerdtfeger]: s/aria-desribedby/aria-describedby/
17:20:54 [jcraig]: q+
17:21:08 [clown]: CG: And, in order to go backwards, there is aria-annotatedfor to list the IDs.
17:21:17 [clown]: BG: Is this like aria-flowto?
17:21:32 [clown]: CG: Flowto is more for "go read this next".
17:21:48 [clown]: CG: This is more as a way of calling out that there is an annotaion here.
17:21:59 [clown]: JN: We use describedby for lists, but it's not perfect.
17:22:30 [jcraig]: ack jamesn
17:22:45 [clown]: JN: To cover excel to cover the extra info that can be stored on the cell.
17:23:01 [jcraig]: Zakim, aacc is Marco
17:23:01 [Zakim]: +Marco; got it
17:23:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
17:23:24 [clown]: MZ: I wanted to comment on the annotedby and annotedfor.
17:23:26 [Zakim]: +James_Nurthen.a
17:23:35 [clown]: MZ: Does it need to be both ways?
17:23:37 [Zakim]: -James_Nurthen
17:23:42 [jcraig]: q- (I was going to say the same thing)
17:23:49 [jcraig]: q-
17:23:53 [clown]: MZ: FF creates the reverse relation for things like describedby.
17:24:02 [jcraig]: ack +49
17:24:10 [clown]: MZ: Can't we make the job on authors easiers.
17:24:17 [clown]: RS: I think we should do just one.
17:24:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
17:24:28 [clown]: JC: I prefere the "by" and not the "for".
17:24:28 [jcraig]: ack me
17:24:31 [jcraig]: q+
17:24:57 [clown]: MZ: I spoke to some people in the Windows team about flowsto and they wanted to create a flowsfrom
17:25:16 [clown]: MZ: And they found it easier if there was only one direction.
17:25:36 [clown]: JC: Did they say what the problem is if the reverse does not match up?
17:25:42 [clown]: MZ: No.
17:26:02 [clown]: JC: That is part of the discussion. To get references in sync.
17:26:11 [clown]: JC: It's easier if it's just one direction.
17:26:31 [jamesn]: +1 to that
17:26:42 [clown]: RS: Let's summarize where we have agreement. Is "by" preferred to "from"?
17:26:49 [clown]: <someone>: agreed.
17:26:59 [clown]: JC: I had some questions on the examples.
17:27:07 [clown]: CG: Which example?
17:27:16 [clown]: JC: The one called basic example.
17:27:30 [clown]: JC: There are no roles in either scenario.
17:27:44 [clown]: JC: The first one makes sesnse since it is just text.
17:28:02 [clown]: JC: But the the other one might need a role, with a description of it being a deletion.
17:28:24 [clown]: JC: The screen reader could detect the annotation type by a refereence to the annotation.
17:28:45 [jcraig]: ack me
17:28:56 [clown]: CG: There are times with annotation where the text is not in the DOM.
17:29:06 [clown]: JC: Do you have an example.
17:29:19 [clown]: CG: If the comments pane is not shown, we remove it from the DOM.
17:29:29 [clown]: CG: Perhaps we should have it in the DOM, but marked hidden.
17:29:35 [clown]: RS: That makes sense.
17:30:12 [jamesn]: q+ to say we have that
17:30:17 [clown]: JC: Do we need an IndieUI action to ?
17:30:28 [clown]: JC: To indicate that the user wants to see this now.
17:30:59 [clown]: CG: That fits with my thoughts do we need to create something else for hidden annotations.
17:32:06 [jcraig]: q+
17:32:15 [jamesn]: ack me
17:32:15 [Zakim]: jamesn, you wanted to say we have that
17:32:26 [Zakim]: +[GVoice]
17:32:39 [clown]: zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:32:39 [Zakim]: +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:32:44 [jcraig]: q+ to say we should be careful not to conflate the API with UI
17:32:51 [clown]: zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:32:51 [Zakim]: ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:33:16 [clown]: CG: Is there something similar to an invoke action?
17:33:33 [clown]: JC: There is something similar going on in the IndieUI WG.
17:34:03 [clown]: JC: Does a click on a link activate the link? Or the annotation associated with it?
17:34:15 [clown]: CG: Clicking the link opens up the new page.
17:34:34 [clown]: JC: Is it like a contextual menu?
17:34:48 [jcraig]: ack me
17:34:48 [Zakim]: jcraig, you wanted to say we should be careful not to conflate the API with UI
17:34:50 [clown]: JC: That might be sufficiently covered.
17:35:18 [clown]: JC: We need to not confuse the UI with the API we are developing.
17:35:53 [clown]: JC: We may be situations where the user wants to hear the entirety of an addition, but only just that things have been deletions.
17:36:08 [clown]: JC: But we want the API supports all of these scenerios.
17:36:28 [clown]: MZ: I agree with that, and it could be controlled by the screen reader's verbosity settings.
17:36:43 [clown]: MZ: It's the user's choice or the ATs how to present it.
17:36:58 [clown]: MZ: But we want the information on hand to decide that.
17:37:02 [clown]: RS: right.
17:37:06 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
17:37:32 [clown]: MZ: I think the filtering should be done by the screen reader, not the web app.
17:38:07 [clown]: JC: But, in the case that Chris is describing, there may be reasons why the comments are not in the DOM — performance reasons.
17:38:32 [clown]: CG: what you bring up about lazy loading — that affects the web app in general.
17:38:42 [clown]: CG: And we need to account for lazy loading in general.
17:39:23 [clown]: RS: we also have to think about validation tools.
17:39:34 [clown]: RS: If you have an annotation reference, you have to deal with that issues.
17:40:10 [clown]: JC: If there's an idref but it's not yet loaded, you can't say that's an error.
17:40:18 [clown]: RS: Is busy involved here somehow?
17:40:38 [clown]: RS: We can have something in the annotation that says it's not loaded, and that might handle it.
17:41:05 [clown]: RS: And, also, let the user load the comment on demand.
17:41:28 [clown]: JC: Marco's proposal to have all the notes in the DOM makes things easier for the UA and that AT.
17:41:54 [clown]: JC: But, Chris, you should take these thoughts back and see where performance in a real issue.
17:42:23 [clown]: CG: If we load the comment pane, but mark it with aria-hidden, would that be a solution?
17:42:31 [clown]: JC: That would do.
17:43:03 [clown]: JN: We need to couple the situation where the info is not there, until it is requested and then see how the load affects things.
17:43:30 [clown]: RS: Worry: why have the SR user have access to the comments but the sighted user not?
17:43:45 [clown]: CG: We can have a gesture where the sighted user opens the comment pane to view it.
17:44:10 [clown]: MZ: The reason we did this in JAWS because the sighted user could use mouse hove to get the comment.
17:44:51 [clown]: CG: Let's leave this open, and I'll take this back to the team, and can we discuss on list.
17:45:01 [clown]: JC: Keep the discussion on the list, please.
17:45:12 [jcraig]: q?
17:45:41 [clown]: JC: In the discussion topic section, there is noted annotation types: comment, spelling error, etc.
17:46:23 [clown]: JC: These seem something like we should tokenize and include as roles or annotationtype as an enumerated type rather than a localized string.
17:46:35 [Zakim]: -Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:46:36 [cyns]: cyns has joined #aria
17:46:52 [clown]: JC: Because of the scenario where the annoation is not in the DOM, then it's harder
17:47:09 [cyns]: been trying to get though on the phone, and conf is full. anything we can do abt that?
17:47:14 [clown]: JC: The localization can be done by the user agent or the AT.
17:47:36 [clown]: q+ to note that cyns cannot get on the call.
17:47:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
17:47:53 [clown]: CG: we don't know what the other types are going to be.
17:48:07 [clown]: CG: My concern that a tokenized list is too constrictive.
17:48:34 [clown]: JC: But, the problem is there are different scenarios such as where the user wants to hear all the comments.
17:48:49 [clown]: CG: Are you suggesting different types of annotation?
17:49:12 [clown]: JC: Partly, but a screen reader can't tell from the localized string what the type is.
17:49:25 [clown]: JC: But a token would solve that.
17:49:45 [jcraig]: q+ to suggest vendor-prefixed token values
17:49:55 [jcraig]: ack jos
17:50:00 [jcraig]: ack clown
17:50:00 [Zakim]: clown, you wanted to note that cyns cannot get on the call.
17:50:20 [Zakim]: -Cooper
17:50:34 [clown]: LJW: That's very important from a user's perspective to be able to turn different types of comments on and off.
17:50:39 [Stefan]: Stefan has joined #aria
17:51:16 [Zakim]: +Cynthia_Shelly
17:51:18 [clown]: RS: Chris, are you going to take this back to the team, and revisit next week?
17:51:19 [Zakim]: -Cynthia_Shelly
17:51:25 [Zakim]: +Cooper
17:51:27 [clown]: CG: Sure.
17:51:36 [clown]: CG: One more issue.
17:51:39 [Zakim]: +Cynthia_Shelly
17:51:51 [clown]: CG: If you have overlapping annotations like a comment and an enclosed footnote.
17:52:05 [clown]: CG: Or just two comments. How is that marked up?
17:52:38 [clown]: CG: So there is a programmatic way to note that the overlap and how they both are associated with the same span.
17:52:54 [clown]: CG: We could discuss this on the list.
17:53:15 [clown]: CG: <description of how it is done now>
17:53:21 [jcraig]: q+
17:53:53 [clown]: CG: It's all written up in the document.
17:53:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]: ack jcraig
17:53:58 [Zakim]: jcraig, you wanted to suggest vendor-prefixed token values and to
17:54:22 [clown]: JC: <describes how it might be done programmatically>
17:54:56 [clown]: CG: You might need two annotatedbys and which goes with which.
17:55:26 [clown]: CG: Is the suggestion that annotatedby has a list of IDREFs?
17:56:02 [clown]: CG: What is described in the doc is not for overlapping annotations.
17:56:10 [clown]: CG: But that is something to consider.
17:56:49 [clown]: CG/JC: <more discussion of how overlapping comments might be handled>
17:58:20 [clown]: CG: a concern is if there are say 3 different annotations on a span, there should be a way to jump to the different types, say the spelling error.
17:58:36 [clown]: JC: And that keyboard shortcut would depend on?
17:59:03 [clown]: CG: If the screen reader can recognize error and comment differently, then you can have different ways to get at them.
17:59:30 [clown]: JC: The only problem if there are two comments about the same bit of text, or the same annotation type.
17:59:30 [jcraig]: q?
17:59:45 [clown]: CG: The sighted user could tell by visual cues.
17:59:51 [jcraig]: q+ you wanted to suggest vendor-prefixed token values and to
17:59:59 [jcraig]: q+ to suggest vendor-prefixed token values and to
18:00:09 [clown]: CG: I like these thoughts, and we can contiue on list.
18:00:37 [clown]: RS: When we have a design we can meet with the AT vendors.
18:01:27 [jgunder_]: jgunder_ has joined #aria
18:02:26 [Zakim]: -Suzann_Keohane
18:02:26 [clown]: CG: maybe we should revisit this in two weeks time?
18:02:32 [jcraig]: ack me
18:02:32 [Zakim]: jcraig, you wanted to suggest vendor-prefixed token values and to
18:02:55 [jgunder_]: Telephone bridge is full, won't let me on
18:03:28 [clown]: JC: Regarding extensibility of tokens, some enumerations are set up to be extensible.
18:03:56 [clown]: JC: See aria-invalid. Besides the specified tokens, any other string is regarded as "true".
18:04:16 [clown]: JC: And we could include vendor prefixed tokens.
18:04:39 [clown]: JC: Something aria-invalid="MS:notelink".
18:05:02 [clown]: JC: We could do something similar for the annotation types.
18:05:10 [clown]: MZ: I like the conccpt.
18:05:27 [clown]: JN: I don't. Vendors means anyone? Or ATs in the field?
18:05:35 [clown]: JC: It's a slippery slope.
18:05:45 [clown]: JC: It's technically valid now.
18:06:03 [clown]: JC: The worry is AT vendors will lock into these extra tokens.
18:06:20 [clown]: JN: Why not put the tokens in ARIA 1.1. Why not solve the problem?
18:06:39 [clown]: JN: Say that this is most like the other ones, rather than just "true".
18:07:01 [clown]: JN: Just like we have with roles: use the first recognized one.
18:07:43 [clown]: JN: aria-invalid is weird since you can state that something is invalid without saying what the error is.
18:08:34 [clown]: JN: Let's not make the same mistake with annotations.
18:09:15 [clown]: RS: Let's wrap, and plan on having Chris back in a week or two.
18:09:16 [Zakim]: -Chris_Gallello
18:09:43 [clown]: Topic:: Meeting time.
18:10:11 [clown]: RS: Marco, we got a number of west coasters to attend given this meeting time.
18:10:20 [clown]: RS: So, it's difficult to move the meeting time.
18:10:45 [clown]: MZ: My conflict is the Mozilla product wide meeting, starting at 1:30 pm EDT.
18:11:16 [clown]: MZ: And it lasts as long as there are topics.
18:11:30 [clown]: JC: We can arrange that your topics are at the beginning of this call.
18:11:35 [clown]: MZ: That will help.
18:11:49 [clown]: RS: Difficult to reschedule.
18:12:06 [clown]: RS: Send me a note at what you want discussed, and we will do it first.
18:12:23 [jcraig]: Zakim, who is on the call?
18:12:23 [Zakim]: On the phone I see janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Joanie_Diggs, Andrew_Larkin, Stefan_Schnabel, Marco, James_Nurthen.a,
18:12:23 [clown]: Topic: ISSUE-606
18:12:26 [Zakim]: ... Joseph_Scheuhammer.a, Cynthia_Shelly
18:12:26 [Zakim]: [Apple] has jcraig
18:12:28 [clown]: issue-606?
18:12:28 [trackbot]: issue-606 -- grid role does not allow aria-setsize or aria-posinset -- open
18:12:28 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/606
18:12:49 [clown]: RS: what is the use case, James?
18:13:03 [clown]: JC: This might have been brought up by Dominic.
18:13:28 [clown]: RS: You could have multiple grids in a row.
18:13:36 [clown]: JC: That doesn't not sound right.
18:13:48 [clown]: JC: I think this was on the descendant nodes.
18:14:13 [clown]: JN: rows and columns would be handy, but I thought that was ARIA 2.0
18:14:18 [clown]: RS: we have rows now.
18:14:23 [jcraig]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/tip/ARIA/1.0/tests/test-files/roles-properties-supported/roles-properties-supported-grid-aria-level-1.html
18:14:26 [clown]: JN: we could put it on cells.
18:15:10 [clown]: RS: This is the inherited.
18:15:19 [Zakim]: -Marco
18:15:23 [clown]: JC: I think this is an invalid issues, and a bad example.
18:15:30 [clown]: JC: Remove it from the test suite.
18:16:17 [clown]: RS: This was specifically for a grid. We should be correct the example.
18:16:33 [clown]: RS: I can see the value of putting it on rows and cells.
18:17:06 [clown]: JC: We should make an action for someone to remove or fix the test file.
18:17:22 [clown]: RS: Michael, could you correct this one in the test suite?
18:17:30 [jcraig]: From the validator:
18:17:30 [jcraig]: "https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/tip/ARIA/1.0/tests/test-files/roles-properties-supported/roles-properties-supported-grid-aria-level-1.html":8:83: error: Attribute “aria-setsize” not allowed on element “div” in this context.
18:17:31 [jcraig]: "https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/tip/ARIA/1.0/tests/test-files/roles-properties-supported/roles-properties-supported-grid-aria-level-1.html":8:83: error: Attribute “aria-posinset” not allowed on element “div” in this context.
18:17:34 [clown]: JC: Here is the validator error.
18:17:39 [jcraig]: action to fix examples
18:17:39 [trackbot]: Error finding 'to'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
18:18:20 [clown]: RS/JC: We want someone to look at the test cases and see if the tests are valid, and fix as necessary.
18:18:30 [clown]: MC: That I can do with a query.
18:19:02 [clown]: RS: I'm looking at the row role, and there is no posinset on it.
18:19:58 [clown]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/states_and_properties#aria-setsize
18:20:09 [MichaelC]: Testcase 178
18:20:38 [clown]: MC: I see only one test file, James. Are there more?
18:20:45 [clown]: JC: Possibly...
18:20:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#row
18:21:11 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#gridcell
18:21:23 [clown]: JC: Check test cases on either side, perhaps.
18:21:56 [clown]: JC: I think this is the real issue, but referencing the test case was not correct.
18:22:30 [clown]: JC: If it's on row, it's vertical, and on column it's horizontal. It's like rowindex and colindex.
18:22:52 [clown]: JC: I'm not sure we want to add this to row and columns.
18:23:10 [jcraig]: s/on column/on gridcell/
18:24:08 [clown]: JN: it's a problem when it's both horizontal and vertical.
18:24:32 [clown]: RS: So, can you take an action to fix the test cases, Michael?
18:24:48 [clown]: MC: I don't know what the fix is.
18:25:08 [clown]: JC: And the fix depends on the disposition of these other issues.
18:25:16 [clown]: RS: Do we need this now?
18:25:19 [jcraig]: related to issue-398
18:25:27 [jcraig]: issue-398?
18:25:27 [trackbot]: issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to more than just listitem and option -- open
18:25:27 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/398
18:25:45 [clown]: JN: We end up not using gridcell since it doesn't work, and we end up using labels to make things work.
18:26:04 [jcraig]: action-1293?
18:26:04 [trackbot]: action-1293 -- James Craig to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2013-11-11 -- OPEN
18:26:04 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
18:26:07 [clown]: JC: I do have an action to add colindex and row index.
18:26:26 [clown]: JC: We could bump that to 1.1
18:27:04 [clown]: RS: We could be rowindex on the row, and the cell inherit it.
18:27:23 [clown]: JN: How would these indices work?
18:27:41 [clown]: JC: It disambiguates the meaning of setsize and poinset
18:27:59 [clown]: JN: I guess it helps, but I'm not sure it's necessary.
18:28:10 [clown]: JN: It only disambiguates one.
18:28:22 [clown]: JC: It diambiguates both since it's rowindex and colindex.
18:28:27 [jcraig]: Dominic Mazzoni, "I'd prefer if we added aria-colindex and aria-rowindex attributes, rather than reuse aria-posinset to mean row index when there's no equivalent for col index."
18:28:45 [clown]: JN: Okay, I'm good.
18:28:56 [clown]: RS: Would it help if moved to 1.1?
18:29:02 [clown]: JN: It would help.
18:29:18 [jcraig]: action-1309?
18:29:18 [trackbot]: action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for msaa+uiexpress and uia. -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN
18:29:18 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309
18:29:25 [clown]: JC: Cynthia, you also have an action.
18:29:40 [clown]: CS: I can take a look at it.
18:29:41 [Zakim]: -LJWatson
18:29:47 [clown]: CS: What is the due date?
18:30:07 [clown]: RS: Colindex was a due date of November 2013.
18:30:18 [clown]: RS: Do you want to change it, James?
18:30:27 [clown]: RS: For a heartbeat draft?
18:30:39 [clown]: JC: I want as much in the hearbeat draft as possible.
18:31:00 [clown]: RS: Can we make this a 1.1.?
18:31:02 [clown]: JC: Done.
18:31:08 [jamesn]: thanks
18:31:14 [clown]: RS: Can you look for other holes, James N?
18:31:19 [clown]: JN: Yes.
18:31:31 [clown]: JC: Can we close the issue?
18:31:58 [clown]: JC: We can close 398 and 606
18:32:38 [clown]: JC: I can update the example as I make the spec changes.
18:32:58 [clown]: RS: Anything else?
18:33:03 [Zakim]: -Cynthia_Shelly
18:33:04 [Zakim]: -Bryan_Garaventa
18:33:04 [Zakim]: -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:33:05 [Zakim]: -Andrew_Larkin
18:33:06 [Zakim]: -James_Nurthen.a
18:33:07 [Zakim]: -Joanie_Diggs
18:33:07 [Zakim]: -janina
18:33:08 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
18:33:10 [Zakim]: -Cooper
18:33:30 [Zakim]: -Stefan_Schnabel
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'pause', clown. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:38:11 [clown]: s/row index/rowindex/
18:38:14 [clown]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:14 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/05-aria-minutes.html clown
18:38:41 [clown]: zakim, please part
18:38:41 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, janina, Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane, jcraig, Chris_Gallello,
18:38:41 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #aria
18:38:44 [Zakim]: ... Joanie_Diggs, +1.215.286.aaaa, +49.171.205.aabb, James_Nurthen, Andrew_Larkin, Stefan_Schnabel, +49.171.205.aacc, Marco, Cynthia_Shelly
18:38:50 [clown]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/05-aria-minutes.html clown
18:42:43 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'pause', clown. Try /msg RRSAgent help