14:27:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
14:27:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-dpub-irc
14:27:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:27:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
14:27:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:27:47 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 33 minutes
14:27:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:27:48 <trackbot> Date: 28 April 2014
14:32:06 <david_stroup> david_stroup has joined #dpub
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14:54:08 <liza> liza has joined #dpub
14:54:42 <liza> Bill's notes for today: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/Metadata#NEAR_TERM_GOALS
14:55:13 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:20 <Zakim> +liza
14:56:33 <ivan> zakim, code?
14:56:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
14:56:51 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:57:21 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
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14:58:03 <Zakim> +benjaminsko
14:58:11 <Zakim> + +1.718.701.aaaa
14:58:28 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
14:58:37 <philm> philm has joined #dpub
14:58:41 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is Laura
14:58:41 <Zakim> +Laura; got it
14:58:50 <ivan> Guest: Laura Dawson, Bowker
14:58:53 <Zakim> + +1.646.336.aabb
14:58:57 <Zakim> +??P9
14:59:07 <Zakim> +Tzviya
14:59:24 <mgylling> zakim, ??P9 is me
14:59:24 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
14:59:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:31 <Zakim> + +1.217.244.aacc
14:59:46 <Julie> Julie has joined #dpub
14:59:52 <Zakim> + +1.212.364.aadd
15:00:02 <AH_Miller> Mike Miller AH_Miller has joined
15:00:04 <ivan> zakim, aabb is Julie_Morris_BISG
15:00:04 <Zakim> +Julie_Morris_BISG; got it
15:00:13 <philm> 212.364 is me
15:00:22 <Luc> Luc has joined #dpub
15:00:27 <Zakim> +??P11
15:00:39 <philm> aadd is me
15:00:41 <ivan> zakim, aacc is Tim_Cole
15:00:41 <Zakim> +Tim_Cole; got it
15:00:42 <Zakim> +duga
15:00:47 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
15:01:11 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:01:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see liza, Ivan, benjaminsko, Laura, Julie_Morris_BISG, mgylling, Tzviya, [IPcaller], Tim_Cole, +1.212.364.aadd, ??P11, duga
15:01:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see brady_duga, Luc, Julie, philm, tzviya, benjaminsko, tmichel, liza, AH_Miller, david_stroup, Zakim, RRSAgent, mgylling, ivan, liam, trackbot, plinss, astearns
15:01:24 <Zakim> +madi
15:01:25 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #dpub
15:01:30 <ivan> zakim, aadd is philm
15:01:30 <Zakim> +philm; got it
15:01:31 <Zakim> +david_stroup
15:01:36 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #dpub
15:01:36 <Zakim> + +1.734.904.aaee
15:01:47 <madi> madi has joined #dpub
15:01:48 <ivan> zakim, IPcaller is AH_Miller
15:01:49 <Zakim> +AH_Miller; got it
15:01:52 <Zakim> +Vlad
15:01:52 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:01:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see liza, Ivan, benjaminsko, Laura, Julie_Morris_BISG, mgylling, Tzviya, AH_Miller, Tim_Cole, philm, ??P11, duga, madi, david_stroup, +1.734.904.aaee, Vlad
15:01:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see madi, TimCole, Vlad, brady_duga, Luc, Julie, philm, tzviya, benjaminsko, tmichel, liza, AH_Miller, david_stroup, Zakim, RRSAgent, mgylling, ivan, liam, trackbot,
15:01:53 <Zakim> ... plinss, astearns
15:01:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
15:02:14 <Zakim> +Laura_Fowler
15:02:16 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
15:02:18 <Zakim> +casey
15:02:19 <ivan> zakim, aaee is Bill_Kasdorf
15:02:20 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf; got it
15:02:31 <karen> karen has joined #dpub
15:03:24 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #dpub
15:03:32 <ivan> scribenick: benjaminsko
15:03:38 <Zakim> +Bert
15:03:39 <ivan> Chair: Liza
15:03:57 <karen> zakim, code?
15:03:57 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), karen
15:04:03 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see liza, Ivan, benjaminsko, Laura, Julie_Morris_BISG, mgylling, Tzviya, AH_Miller, Tim_Cole, philm, ??P11, duga, madi, david_stroup, Bill_Kasdorf, Vlad,
15:04:06 <Zakim> ... Laura_Fowler, casey, Bert
15:04:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see gcapiel, karen, Bert, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, TimCole, Vlad, brady_duga, Luc, Julie, philm, tzviya, benjaminsko, tmichel, liza, AH_Miller, david_stroup, Zakim, RRSAgent,
15:04:06 <Zakim> ... mgylling, ivan, liam, trackbot, plinss, astearns
15:04:31 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
15:04:34 <Zakim> + +33.9.53.85.aaff
15:04:40 <ivan> zakim, aaff is Luc
15:04:41 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
15:04:48 <tmichel> zakim, mute me
15:04:48 <Zakim> sorry, tmichel, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:04:50 <tzviya> scribe: tzviya
15:05:18 <ivan> zakim, aaff is tmichel
15:05:18 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'aaff'
15:05:25 <ivan> zakim, Luc is aaff
15:05:25 <Zakim> +aaff; got it
15:05:32 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:05:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see liza, Ivan, benjaminsko, Laura, Julie_Morris_BISG, mgylling, Tzviya, AH_Miller, Tim_Cole, philm, ??P11, duga, madi, david_stroup, Bill_Kasdorf, Vlad,
15:05:35 <Zakim> ... Laura_Fowler, casey, Bert, Karen_Myers, aaff
15:05:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see gcapiel, karen, Bert, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, TimCole, Vlad, brady_duga, Luc, Julie, philm, tzviya, benjaminsko, tmichel, liza, AH_Miller, david_stroup, Zakim, RRSAgent,
15:05:35 <Zakim> ... mgylling, ivan, liam, trackbot, plinss, astearns
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15:06:07 <tzviya> scribenick:tzviya
15:06:23 <tmichel> zakim, mute tmichel
15:06:23 <Zakim> sorry, tmichel, I do not know which phone connection belongs to tmichel
15:06:25 <liza> Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2014/04/14-dpub-minutes.html
15:06:39 <tzviya> minutes approved
15:06:46 <ljnd> ljnd has joined #dpub
15:06:51 <tzviya> liza: guest intros
15:07:35 <tzviya> laura dawson: product manager for identifiers at bowker, involved in digital publishing, spoke to Bill K about metadata
15:07:40 <Zakim> +??P37
15:07:49 <gcapiel> zakim, ??P37 is me
15:07:49 <Zakim> +gcapiel; got it
15:08:19 <tzviya> Tom Cole, of Univ of illinois, working with metadata for about 20 years
15:09:10 <tzviya> liza: Bill provided reading material based on interviews with metadata experts in industry
15:09:45 <tzviya> ...there are some issues that Bill raised that are out of scope of W3C. e.g. identifiers - known problem, but we will not try to solve it
15:10:03 <Zakim> -??P11
15:10:32 <tzviya> ...we will talk about metadata as a method for transporting data, as in ONIX
15:10:53 <tzviya> ...that may not be as relevant to the web
15:11:11 <Zakim> +Luc
15:11:11 <tzviya> ...section-level metadata is extremely relevant to web
15:11:58 <tzviya> ...the network of metadata, that is the relationship of pieces of metadata to each other, is extremely relevant to web
15:12:24 <tzviya> ...rights metadata (not DRM) is also a high-level topic
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15:13:02 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:13:43 <Zakim> -madi
15:14:15 <tzviya> Bill_Kasdorf: more interviews to come. Madi's interviews not yet posted
15:14:41 <Zakim> +madi
15:15:05 <tzviya> ...Bill interviewed people across industry. Madi interviewed experts within Pearson
15:15:20 <liza> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/Metadata#NEAR_TERM_GOALS
15:15:48 <tzviya> ...summary is available on wiki
15:16:20 <tzviya> ...complexity and inconsistency are major issues, driving a desire for simplicity
15:16:40 <Zakim> -casey
15:16:45 <tzviya> ...some have suggested putting ONIX into schema.og
15:16:56 <tzviya> og/s/org
15:17:43 <tzviya> ...leaning toward focusing on embedded metadata that aids in discoverability and sales
15:18:00 <tzviya> ...this led to exploring Thema
15:18:45 <tzviya> ...Different regions have different specs for subject codes: BISAC, BIC, etc. Thema universalizes them
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15:20:31 <tzviya> philm: Thema is very high-level, a classification that travels
15:20:40 <Zakim> +Suzanne_Taylor
15:21:06 <ivan> q+
15:21:10 <tzviya> ...the question is how granular do we want to ger?
15:21:31 <dauwhe> q+
15:21:53 <tzviya> ..example is content about specific battle in World War II. Thema classification does not go beyond WWII
15:22:45 <tzviya> Bill_Kasdorf: When within a domain, require details of that level
15:23:40 <tzviya> ...this gets to a separate point  -  I don't think we should get into vocabularies, other than providing the mechanism for creating them
15:23:52 <tzviya> ...we can provide keywording
15:23:54 <dauwhe> q-
15:24:00 <liza> ack ivan
15:24:14 <tzviya> ...some people wish for OWP to do things it can already do
15:24:46 <tzviya> ...Some people want ONIX-lite, but what parts are of interest?
15:25:29 <tzviya> ivan: we have terminology problems among communities
15:25:45 <tzviya> ...schema.org contains main classes and properties
15:26:04 <tzviya> ...others contain classifications
15:26:37 <ivan> http://blog.schema.org/2012/05/schemaorg-markup-for-external-lists.html
15:26:38 <tzviya> ...the approach of schema.org is to accept agreed upon but external terms. They do not want to standardize that
15:27:46 <tzviya> ...this link points to a description of what schema.org will accept in a specific circumstance, in this case, wikipedia URIs
15:28:53 <tzviya> ...what we need to agree upon is what schema.org will accept - what classes and properties, allowing for volatility within the specification to which they point
15:29:25 <TimCole> q+
15:29:31 <liza> ack TimCole
15:30:15 <tzviya> Bill_Kasdorf: there are so many different sides to publishing, and not all needs are aligned
15:31:18 <tzviya> Tim: another issue with things like ONIX, in addition to volatility, is the way that they are used
15:31:42 <tzviya> ...every publisher uses it differently - not a standardization success
15:32:05 <tzviya> ...the library world has attempted to add missing tags, such as imprint
15:32:05 <philm> ?+
15:32:41 <philm> q+
15:33:17 <tzviya> Bill_Kasdorf: Recipients of metadata would like to see consistency, and publishers would like to see recipients standardize implementation
15:33:31 <ljnd> q+
15:34:25 <tzviya> liza: is standardizing thema? is a recommendation for schema within scope of this group?
15:35:35 <liza> ack philm
15:37:05 <tzviya> philm: agree that using vocabularies from different areas might be a good idea. ONIX sends a message with a lot of useful data, but some of it is not useful to web
15:37:44 <tzviya> ...GS1 has useful info, but it doesn't have contributor element, so they used BISG best practices for ONIX
15:38:17 <tzviya> ...We also need to look at different audiences. STM audience and general audience are going to be very different.
15:38:37 <liza> ack ljnd
15:38:41 <tzviya> ...Trade content is not often online, but STM content is often online.
15:39:08 <tzviya> ljdn: Flexibility of allowing different vocabularies, but I would argue that trade books are not online YET
15:39:23 <ivan> +1 Laura
15:39:29 <liza> +1000 Laura
15:39:32 <tzviya> ...there may be a case for search engines to index the structure vocab of book for search
15:39:38 <TimCole> from the EPub blog a comment on about sufficiency of ONIX contributor codes and Library of Congress MARC relator codes for comic books: https://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/issues/detail?id=23
15:40:03 <liza> Well, it's a real thing we do at Safari
15:40:04 <tzviya> ...probably want to web-enable books, even if do not sell them as online books
15:40:33 <tzviya> ...amazon has categories, B&N has categories, we should make categories
15:41:03 <tzviya> liza: i get nervous when i hear ONIX-lite, because it sounds like we are creating a new standard and stepping on ONIX toes
15:41:22 <ljnd> Tzviya, not make caegories, just be aware that the publisher is not solely in control of describing their own books
15:41:28 <ljnd> Vendors can as well
15:41:35 <ivan> s/caegories/categories/
15:41:36 <brady_duga> q+
15:41:40 <tzviya> ...but it makes sense to take a subset of currently available specs
15:42:52 <tzviya> Bill_Kasdorf: There is a medical vocab called UMFLS (?) with 1 mil concepts, maintained by NIH - one slice of STM
15:43:02 <Julie> q+
15:43:23 <ivan> s/UMFLS/UMLS/
15:43:51 <tzviya> ...issues arising, like subject, contributor, rights. Being able to base this on existing standards - point to an existing code list
15:44:13 <liza> ack brady_duga
15:44:38 <tzviya> ...keywords is also important - author may not know what BISAC is, but can list keywords
15:45:23 <tzviya> brady-duga: a little nervous about putting just metadata and no data on internet, people want to find information, not just metadata when they search
15:45:42 <liza> ack Julie
15:46:00 <tzviya> liza: agree, but I think it's reasonable for a search to lead to where can find information, not the actual info
15:46:06 <brady_duga> Sorry - I am in the portion of my trip when the call drops, so I can't really respond more.
15:46:54 <ivan> +1 to Julie, this is the start
15:46:56 <tzviya> julie: re: onix-lite concerns: BISG committee looking at schema.org and first identifying where connections already exist
15:47:11 <tzviya> ...there are probably more holes than there are connections
15:47:23 <ivan> q+
15:48:51 <tzviya> ...we may be able to identify where current schema.org elements mimic ONIX. i.e. we may not have to create ONIX-lite.
15:49:18 <tzviya> Bill_Kasdorf: it may be a recommendation of how to include ONIX info in schema.org.
15:49:37 <tzviya> liza: this group could then write rec of HOW to include the info and how to process
15:50:16 <gcapiel> +q
15:50:18 <liza> ack ivan
15:50:18 <tzviya> Bill_Kasdorf: we have been focusing on schema.org. Is there anything else from OWP that we should look at?
15:51:00 <tzviya> ivan: reinforce what Julie said: the first thing to do is look at existing vocabularies in schema.org to see if the exist, then add deltas
15:51:27 <Zakim> -aaff
15:52:11 <tzviya> ...to answer Bill's question, in core OWP specs, there are no major tech change or improvement to implement
15:52:22 <tzviya> ...we can act as go-between
15:52:48 <liza> ack gcapiel
15:53:35 <tzviya> gcapiel: process of getting new properties into schema.org is tricky and not completely transparent. Still a good idea, but there are other ways to do it
15:54:00 <tzviya> ...there are other vocabularies like microdata and RDFa
15:54:05 <Zakim> -duga
15:54:23 <tzviya> ...the challenge is what search engines will pick it up
15:55:14 <tzviya> Ivan: the first thing to do is talk to the people involved and sit down with people who represent this industry (BISG or others)
15:55:24 <tzviya> ...and make our intentions clear
15:55:37 <tzviya> liza: is this an action item for ivan?
15:55:58 <tzviya> Ivan: it might not be for this group, might be appropriate for BISG
15:56:42 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
15:57:21 <tzviya> Ivan: would need closer rep from Editeur if we invite schema.org reps to a meeting
15:58:08 <tzviya> Bill_Kasdorf: this group has a strong book bias, but this is far-reaching
15:58:11 <tzviya> q+
15:58:16 <liza> ack tzviya
15:59:11 <tzviya> tzviya: I thought we had agreed to narrow scope to books because that is who the representation is and we had to narrow it down
15:59:43 <tzviya> Ivan: if we take an exercise like ONIX, it helps to start with a smaller unit like books
16:00:20 <tzviya> ...I am happy to invite reps from schema.org, but I don't want to step on BISG's toes
16:00:28 <TimCole> +q
16:00:56 <tzviya> Julie: BISG would be interested in making sure that our work is checked over by schema.org and we have a stamp of approval
16:01:03 <liza> ack TimCole
16:01:45 <tzviya> TimCole: there is also a CG looking at bibliographic extensions (BibEx). Is that represented in this group?
16:01:48 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
16:01:50 <TimCole> http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/
16:02:16 <tzviya> ljdn: that group is not very active now and is focused on library work
16:02:32 <tzviya> Liza: out of time. continue on list
16:02:35 <Zakim> -gcapiel
16:02:36 <Zakim> -madi
16:02:37 <Zakim> -Tzviya
16:02:37 <Zakim> -Laura_Fowler
16:02:39 <Zakim> -mgylling
16:02:39 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:39 <Zakim> -Julie_Morris_BISG
16:02:39 <Zakim> -Vlad
16:02:39 <Zakim> -Laura
16:02:41 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:02:41 <Zakim> -liza
16:02:41 <Zakim> -philm
16:02:42 <Zakim> -Tim_Cole
16:02:42 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:02:42 <Zakim> -Luc
16:02:43 <Zakim> -benjaminsko
16:02:44 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:02:45 <Zakim> -Suzanne_Taylor
16:02:46 <Zakim> -Bert
16:02:47 <Zakim> -david_stroup
16:02:50 <Zakim> -AH_Miller
16:02:50 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
16:02:50 <Zakim> Attendees were liza, Ivan, benjaminsko, +1.718.701.aaaa, Laura, +1.646.336.aabb, Tzviya, mgylling, +1.217.244.aacc, +1.212.364.aadd, Julie_Morris_BISG, Tim_Cole, duga, madi, philm,
16:02:50 <Zakim> ... david_stroup, +1.734.904.aaee, AH_Miller, Vlad, Laura_Fowler, casey, Bill_Kasdorf, Bert, Karen_Myers, +33.9.53.85.aaff, aaff, gcapiel, Luc, dauwhe, Suzanne_Taylor
16:03:04 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:03:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
16:12:47 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
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