15:45:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
15:45:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-audio-irc
15:45:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:45:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #audio
15:45:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 28346
15:45:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see RWC_Audio()12:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
15:45:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
15:45:06 <trackbot> Date: 17 April 2014
15:45:15 <olivier> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2014AprJun/0021.html
15:45:29 <olivier> Regrets: Giri
15:47:00 <cwilso> I'd like to add FTF meetings to agenda.
15:48:32 <olivier> Agenda+ Review of TAG issues (continued)
15:48:36 <olivier> Agenda+ f2f meetings
15:54:22 <rtoyg_> rtoyg_ has joined #audio
15:57:58 <kawai> kawai has joined #audio
15:58:20 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has now started
15:58:27 <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aaaa
15:59:43 <Zakim> + +1.408.355.aabb
15:59:55 <Domenic_> Zakim, aabb is me
15:59:55 <Zakim> +Domenic_; got it
16:00:08 <cwilso> zakim, aaaa has rtoyg and cwilso
16:00:08 <Zakim> +rtoyg, cwilso; got it
16:01:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:53 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:02:44 <Zakim> + +44.303.040.aacc
16:02:51 <olivier> zakim, aacc is me
16:02:51 <Zakim> +olivier; got it
16:02:59 <olivier> zakim, who is here?
16:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.650.214.aaaa, Domenic_, olivier
16:03:01 <Zakim> +1.650.214.aaaa has rtoyg, cwilso
16:03:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see kawai, rtoyg_, Zakim, RRSAgent, heath, shepazu, trackbot, olivier, mdjp, toyoshiAw, slightlyoff, Domenic_, cwilso, paul___irish, rtoyg
16:04:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:05:12 <kawai> IPcaller may be me.. but I can not hear any sound....
16:05:37 <olivier> ACTION: Olivier to migrate demo-list to HTML, split learn/showcase
16:05:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-99 - Migrate demo-list to html, split learn/showcase [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2014-04-24].
16:05:53 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:07:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:07:26 <olivier> zakim, IPcaller is kawai
16:07:26 <Zakim> +kawai; got it
16:08:53 <kawai_> kawai_ has joined #audio
16:10:03 <olivier> Take up agendum 1
16:10:10 <olivier> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2014AprJun/0021.html
16:10:31 <Domenic_> constructability should be before subclassing
16:10:42 <olivier> olivier: start with layering
16:11:25 <olivier> Domenic_: want to convey idea
16:11:38 <kawai_> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:11:38 <Zakim> sorry, kawai_, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
16:11:47 <olivier> ... if we were to implement audio tag, how would it be built
16:11:58 <olivier> ... raises questions about what the audiocontext is
16:12:07 <olivier> ... also practical, help web authors have clarity
16:12:20 <olivier> ... there are a lot of edge cases in the interaction between 2 apis
16:13:00 <olivier> olivier: understand that by doing it we would unearth issues
16:13:22 <olivier> Domenic: https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/257
16:13:51 <olivier> cwilso: Alex and I (and Ray) have had discussion about this
16:13:57 <olivier> ... good exercise to go through
16:14:10 <olivier> lots of detailed questions that need to be answered
16:15:02 <olivier> cwilso: question of whether we could use Jer's demo
16:15:10 <olivier> ... serves to demonstrate the complexity of it
16:15:21 <olivier> ... not sure we will build the library
16:15:30 <olivier> Domenic_: not necessarily your responsibility
16:15:50 <olivier> ... questions raised - playback rate, codecs
16:16:23 <olivier> cwilso: questions we absolutely have to answer is how the 2 work together
16:16:32 <olivier> ... with the default media element context
16:16:52 <olivier> Domenic_: some of it may be answered intuitively, but need to be clarified
16:17:57 <olivier> cwilso: complex to explain everything in terms of javascript with raw access to input and output
16:18:09 <olivier> ... would need to look deeper at implementation
16:18:46 <olivier> Domenic_: we need better stories for the platform as a whole - related to such discussion and pitfalls
16:18:58 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
16:19:04 <olivier> Domenic_: gap analysis is probably the ultimate goal for this layering discussion
16:20:05 <olivier> olivier: worth diving deeper now given key people missing (Alex, Paul)
16:20:13 <olivier> [agreement not to]
16:22:27 <olivier> ** Promises - https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/252
16:22:35 <olivier> cwilso: about the ability to use promises
16:22:55 <olivier> ... talking about promise-compatibility
16:23:18 <olivier> ... doesn't seem extremely hard, no large risk
16:23:45 <olivier> cwilso: if we make the change implied by snippet, you won't know whether implementation has changed to support promise
16:24:15 <olivier> Domenic_: given release cycles of major implementations
16:24:51 <olivier> cwilso: note Safari has longer release cycle
16:25:00 <olivier> ... but think it's right thing to do
16:25:49 <olivier> olivier: no way to test/know? (short of versioning)
16:26:06 <olivier> Domenic_: you could detect this pretty easily
16:26:12 <olivier> ... and shim the promise version
16:26:50 <olivier> olivier: sounds better. More of a case of "just do it"
16:28:14 <olivier> olivier: want to know whether this is really v1... worried of scope-creeping ourselves to death
16:28:26 <olivier> cwilso: we need to fix decodeaudiodata anyway
16:28:43 <olivier> ... might as well make this change
16:29:03 <olivier> Domenic_: would be happy to sunbmit patch to the spec
16:29:05 <olivier> ... to get started
16:29:24 <olivier> cwilso: would like to talk with you more about how to incorporate progress update etc
16:29:58 <olivier> Domenic_: there was also offlineContext.startRendering()
16:31:50 <olivier> cwilso: would suggest splitting those issues
16:32:46 <Domenic_> https://github.com/w3ctag/promises-guide#one-time-events
16:33:46 <olivier> Domenic_: happy to create 2 PRs and have discussion in there
16:35:36 <olivier> cwilso: does that render the event superfluous
16:35:47 <olivier> Domenic_: wouldn't that be backward-incompatible
16:35:58 <olivier> cwilso: bigger question
16:37:57 <olivier> olivier: doesn't sound like it would be necessary - we can reassess if anyone objects to keeping it
16:38:31 <olivier> ** Constructibility
16:38:55 <olivier> Domenic_: from a JS point of view it is strange that objects come to view without having been constructed
16:39:25 <olivier> ... we have a concrete proposal in https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/250
16:39:41 <olivier> ... also allows subclassing
16:39:56 <olivier> ... most browsers don't have support for it in webidl yet, however
16:40:01 <olivier> ... should be kept in mind
16:40:10 <olivier> ... constructors should be first
16:41:10 <olivier> olivier: purely adding constructors - so backward compatible
16:41:23 <olivier> Domenic_: yes, and behaviour would be exactly the same
16:41:35 <olivier> cwilso: subclassing - agree, next big topic that needs to be solved
16:41:47 <olivier> ... given that the idea is to allow creation of complex nodes
16:41:55 <olivier> ... still on the bench about constructors though
16:42:10 <olivier> ... a number of the nodes can not be constructed usefully without a context
16:42:16 <olivier> Domenic_: context would be required
16:42:52 <olivier> cwilso: don't care that deeply, would probably just use create methods
16:43:10 <olivier> Domenic_: we know there is C++ magic
16:43:34 <olivier> ... but javascript programmers would expect this to be logical
16:44:54 <olivier> olivier: slight worry at confusion caused by having the two ways of doing something
16:45:32 <olivier> Domenic_: developers would be happier to pass attributes to constructor
16:46:27 <olivier> olivier: this sounds like a CfC
16:46:37 <olivier> ACTION: olivier to organise CfC for constructors
16:46:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-100 - Organise cfc for constructors [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2014-04-24].
16:47:06 <olivier> Domenic_: there is also an event that is not constructible
16:47:12 <Domenic_> OfflineAudioCompletionEvent
16:48:24 <olivier> Domenic_: note that it is absolutely necessary for subclassing
16:49:41 <olivier> ** Subclassing
16:49:58 <olivier> Domenic_: in general designing for subclassing means being very explicit
16:50:06 <olivier> ... about implementation-specific details
16:50:47 <olivier> ... right now if you try and apply a node method on arbitrary object it will fail
16:51:26 <olivier> ... no subclassable object in web platform right now
16:51:35 <olivier> ... but clearly a big use case for web audio
16:52:05 <Domenic_> clarification: "implementation-specific" isn't quite right; "internal" is more what i meant
16:52:33 <olivier> cwilso: related to our issues with scriptprocessornode
16:52:45 <olivier> ... we would have to make it a first class citizen first
16:53:00 <olivier> ... everything would have to be describable
16:53:10 <olivier> ... in javascript with input/output stream
16:53:20 <olivier> ... e.g convolution
16:53:30 <olivier> ... can be very difficult to describe thus
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16:54:47 <olivier> olivier: unsure whether we need to release a well-tested v1 before tackling this, sounds like a next big thing
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16:55:51 <cwilso> cwilso: I think we need to tackle this up front.
16:56:09 <olivier> zakim, close agendum 1
16:56:09 <Zakim> agendum 1, Review of TAG issues (continued), closed
16:56:10 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:56:10 <Zakim> 2. f2f meetings [from olivier]
16:56:22 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 2
16:56:22 <Zakim> agendum 2. "f2f meetings" taken up [from olivier]
16:57:35 <olivier> olivier: have responded to survey, we will be at TPAC
16:57:44 <olivier> ... have asked to be early in week
16:58:08 <olivier> ACTION: olivier to check our preferences for TPAC are for nor overlap with AB
16:58:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - Check our preferences for tpac are for nor overlap with ab [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2014-04-24].
16:59:08 <Domenic_> what's the date?
16:59:10 <olivier> olivier: cwilso, go ahead and re-offer to host one meeting before that
16:59:22 <olivier> cwilso: could simply be an editor get-together
17:00:32 <Zakim> - +1.650.214.aaaa
17:00:34 <Zakim> -olivier
17:00:36 <Zakim> -kawai
17:00:55 <olivier> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-audio-minutes.html olivier
17:01:03 <olivier> ScribeNick: olivier
17:01:06 <olivier> Chair: olivier
17:01:09 <olivier> ScribeNick: olivier
17:01:11 <olivier> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:01:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-audio-minutes.html olivier
17:01:29 <Domenic_> https://github.com/w3ctag/promises-guide
17:05:03 <Zakim> -Domenic_
17:05:04 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
17:05:06 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has ended
17:05:06 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.355.aabb, Domenic_, rtoyg, cwilso, +44.303.040.aacc, olivier, kawai, Doug_Schepers
17:11:51 <olivier> olivier has changed the topic to: Audio WG - Last meeting 2014-04-17: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2014AprJun/0027.html - Next - 1st May??
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