IRC log of wai-wcag on 2014-04-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:51 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag

14:45:51 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/15-wai-wcag-irc

14:45:53 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:45:53 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #wai-wcag

14:45:55 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG

14:45:55 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes

14:45:56 [trackbot]

Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

14:45:56 [trackbot]

Date: 15 April 2014

14:46:03 [AWK]

Chair: AWK

14:46:09 [AWK]

zakim, agenda?

14:46:09 [Zakim]

I see nothing on the agenda

14:46:56 [AWK]

Agenda+ Publication timeline update - Techniques in by May 15!

14:47:12 [AWK]

Agenda+ Survey on techniques and comments: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/15thApril2014/

14:47:20 [AWK]

Survey on Task Force updates: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/April14TFUpdates/

14:47:35 [AWK]

Agenda+ Survey on Task Force updates: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/April14TFUpdates/

14:47:45 [AWK]

Agenda+ Comment and techniques status

14:48:36 [AWK]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:48:36 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has not yet started, AWK

14:48:38 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, AWK, GreggVan, MichaelC, trackbot, wilhelm

14:56:33 [kathleen]

kathleen has joined #wai-wcag

14:59:15 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started

14:59:21 [Zakim]

+AWK

15:00:11 [Zakim]

+??P20

15:00:25 [Zakim]

+ +1.910.278.aaaa

15:00:32 [Jon_avila]

Jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag

15:00:35 [kathleen]

zakim, aaa is me

15:00:36 [Zakim]

sorry, kathleen, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'

15:00:39 [Ryladog]

Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag

15:00:43 [kathleen]

zakim, aaaa is me

15:00:45 [Zakim]

+kathleen; got it

15:00:50 [MichaelC]

zakim, aaaa is Kathleen_Wahlbin

15:00:51 [Zakim]

sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

15:00:55 [Zakim]

+Katie_Haritos-Shea

15:00:56 [Kathy]

Kathy has joined #wai-wcag

15:01:39 [Zakim]

+David_MacDonald

15:01:43 [Zakim]

+ +1.703.637.aabb

15:01:51 [Jon_avila]

zakim, I am aabb

15:01:51 [Zakim]

+Jon_avila; got it

15:02:09 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:02:19 [MichaelC]

zakim, IPcaller is Loretta_Guarino_Reid

15:02:19 [Zakim]

+Loretta_Guarino_Reid; got it

15:02:24 [Zakim]

+Kathy_Wahlbin

15:02:24 [David]

David has joined #wai-wcag

15:02:46 [Zakim]

+Marc_Johlic

15:02:48 [AWK]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:02:48 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AWK, Michael_Cooper, kathleen, Katie_Haritos-Shea, David_MacDonald, Jon_avila, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic

15:02:58 [marcjohlic]

marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag

15:04:38 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:04:51 [MichaelC]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014AprJun/0024.html

15:04:58 [MichaelC]

regrets: Bruce_Bailey, Sailesh_Panchang

15:05:04 [MichaelC]

zakim, Ipcaller is Joshue_O_Connor

15:05:04 [Zakim]

+Joshue_O_Connor; got it

15:05:13 [Joshue]

Joshue has joined #wai-wcag

15:05:37 [AWK]

Scribe: David

15:05:42 [Joshue]

zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue

15:05:42 [Zakim]

sorry, Joshue, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'

15:05:50 [MichaelC]

zakim, mute marc

15:05:50 [Zakim]

Marc_Johlic should now be muted

15:05:51 [Joshue]

zakim, who is on the phone

15:05:51 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Joshue

15:05:56 [Joshue]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:05:56 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AWK, Michael_Cooper, kathleen, Katie_Haritos-Shea, David_MacDonald, Jon_avila, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic (muted), Joshue_O_Connor

15:06:00 [David]

Tewt

15:06:04 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

15:06:04 [Zakim]

Joshue_O_Connor should now be muted

15:06:04 [David]

test

15:06:06 [AWK]

Zakim, take up item 1

15:06:06 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Publication timeline update - Techniques in by May 15!" taken up [from AWK]

15:07:01 [David]

May 15 is the date to get techniques for November publication

15:07:16 [AWK]

Zakim, close item 1

15:07:16 [Zakim]

agendum 1, Publication timeline update - Techniques in by May 15!, closed

15:07:18 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:07:18 [Zakim]

2. Survey on techniques and comments: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/15thApril2014/ [from AWK]

15:07:23 [David]

Six months apart is what we are going for

15:07:35 [Loretta]

Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG

15:07:57 [AWK]

Zakim, take up next item

15:07:57 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Survey on techniques and comments: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/15thApril2014/" taken up [from AWK]

15:08:13 [David]

AWK: Survey

15:08:39 [Joshue]

zakim, queue?

15:08:39 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

15:08:59 [David]

AWK: Draft proposal for techniques for dynamic content

15:09:13 [Joshue]

+q

15:09:26 [Joshue]

ack me

15:09:28 [AWK]

ack j

15:10:59 [David]

Joshue: This goes beyond SCR 21

15:11:19 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

15:11:19 [Zakim]

Joshue_O_Connor should now be muted

15:11:32 [Joshue]

zakim, queue?

15:11:32 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

15:11:54 [David]

AWK: goes through comments in survey with users

15:12:15 [AWK]

Regrets+ Bruce, Sailesh

15:12:45 [Joshue]

ack me

15:13:58 [David]

Joshue: People are using libraies these days... don't now how to address that in our techniques

15:14:30 [David]

AWK: JQUERY is used but we can't rely on it...

15:14:54 [Loretta]

q+

15:15:46 [AWK]

Ack l

15:15:48 [Joshue]

ack Lorea

15:15:57 [AWK]

Original comment that kicked this off: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20140107/2891

15:16:02 [David_]

David_ has joined #wai-wcag

15:16:45 [Zakim]

-David_MacDonald

15:17:08 [Zakim]

+David_MacDonald

15:17:42 [David_]

Loretta: We shouldn't stand behind a library.. don't endorse anything

15:17:53 [David_]

q+

15:18:16 [AWK]

ack d

15:18:23 [David_]

test

15:18:52 [Joshue]

DMcD: It's a difficult question, I hear what Josh is saying about real world development.

15:19:08 [Joshue]

DMcD: We do want to make sure what we put in works.

15:19:40 [Joshue]

DMcD: If we did identify widgets that worked well in JQuery for example, what would be the harm? We link to other resources like Juicy Studio etc.

15:19:55 [Joshue]

DMcD: We do need to acknowledge if people are doing things right.

15:22:09 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

15:22:09 [Zakim]

Joshue_O_Connor should now be muted

15:22:29 [David]

Loretta: I have nightmare of GOV of Canada or otherw saying, you must you foo library

15:22:40 [Zakim]

+Gregg_Vanderheiden

15:22:47 [David]

David: Yes it is a real concern

15:23:00 [Joshue]

ack me

15:24:07 [David]

AWK: Original comment was form Wilco... we should address applicability of SCR 21, limit it to that now...

15:24:31 [David]

Josh: Yes let's limit to SCR 21

15:24:56 [Joshue]

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/SCR21

15:25:06 [David]

Josh: Should we retire it

15:26:06 [David]

AWK: Wilco doen't think it aplies to 1.3.1 but it might apply to others such as meaningful sequence

15:26:41 [Joshue]

zakim, queue?

15:26:41 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

15:27:13 [David]

AWK: it is so braod of a way of using technology, that is cannot be made consise?

15:27:40 [David]

Josh:

15:28:03 [David]

it could be a simpler techniue to cut down, and perhaps expand out to other applicability

15:28:09 [David]

q+

15:28:14 [Joshue]

ack Dav

15:28:18 [AWK]

ack d

15:30:10 [David]

David: GOV of Canada called me up and said document.write should not be discouraged

15:31:48 [David]

AWK: seems to discourage some practises rather than encouraging good practises

15:32:07 [David]

AWK: example hard to map to 1.3.1

15:32:46 [David]

AWK:if it was titled how to insert a heading into a oage maybe that work

15:32:57 [Jon_avila]

q?

15:33:05 [Jon_avila]

q+

15:33:08 [David]

Josh: yes agree, title of technique not accurate

15:33:32 [AWK]

ack j

15:33:35 [Loretta]

Someone might check with Cynthia Shelly on the history of this technique.

15:33:49 [David]

Josh: turning down volume on the don't in the technique could make it a lot more useful

15:34:02 [Loretta]

q+

15:34:09 [David]

Josh: can't we map to a conformance requirement

15:34:28 [David]

s/josh/john

15:35:18 [Joshue]

DMacD: I don't think we have ever mapped to a conformance requirement

15:35:20 [AWK]

ack lo

15:35:33 [GreggVan]

q+ we usually mention best practice (recommended) but don’t usually talk about a bad practice unless it is an exception where it technically would meet but is really a bad idea. A way to finesse this is to say this is better than than

15:35:47 [David]

LORETTA: We could map to a conformance criteria

15:36:01 [GreggVan]

Q+

15:36:25 [David]

Loretta: with this mapping to 4.1.1 is that you run risk of things like duplicate ids

15:36:42 [Joshue]

ACTION: Josh to ping Cynthia for some background on SCR21

15:36:42 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-253 - Ping cynthia for some background on scr21 [on Joshue O Connor - due 2014-04-22].

15:36:48 [AWK]

ack g

15:37:36 [Joshue]

+Q

15:37:53 [David]

Gregg: We try to talk about positives, but you can talk in a positive way about things to avoid... so you could say, "this is done in this way to avoid that.... but we usually try to say why

15:38:25 [AWK]

Techniques that refer to conformance requirements only currently for CR#1: http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/20140408/#conformance-reqs

15:39:03 [Zakim]

+James_Nurthen

15:39:32 [Joshue]

ack me

15:39:51 [David]

Gregg: wrt to wuestion about mapping to conformance criteria... usually it is in conjunction with a SC, but the things that are required are using SC within the conformance criteria, i think we can refer to them but we try tl map to a SC because the Conformance criteria are on the SCs

15:40:58 [David]

JOSH: +1 on AWK ... rewrite description, new title, relating to example with Form validation would be better

15:41:12 [Joshue]

zakim, queue?

15:41:12 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

15:41:17 [Loretta]

THe Understanding doc for a conformance criterion with techniques: http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html#uc-conforming-alt-versions-head

15:41:30 [jamesn]

jamesn has joined #wai-wcag

15:41:36 [David]

AWK: wary to map to 4.1.1 but could write failure techniques on messing up dom

15:41:40 [jamesn]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:41:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn

15:42:34 [David]

JOSH: scr21 doesn't say why it is wrong to do the things it discourages

15:42:38 [jamesn]

q+ to ask what is the problem with innerHTML?

15:43:00 [Joshue]

ack james

15:43:00 [Zakim]

jamesn, you wanted to ask what is the problem with innerHTML?

15:43:02 [AWK]

ack j

15:43:18 [Jon_avila]

q+

15:43:24 [Jon_avila]

q?

15:43:24 [David]

ACTION: David to connect with GOV of Canada regarding their objections to the discouraged parts of SCR21

15:43:25 [trackbot]

'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dmacdona, dtodd2).

15:44:00 [David]

ACTION: dmacdonato connect with GOV of Canada regarding their objections to the discouraged parts of SCR21

15:44:00 [trackbot]

Error finding 'dmacdonato'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.

15:44:30 [David]

ACTION:dmacdona : David to connect with GOV of Canada regarding their objections to the discouraged parts of SCR21

15:45:04 [David]

James: nothing wrong with document.write... it is just old and clunky

15:45:34 [David]

JAMES: it seems to be a tuotial on scripting... no our role

15:46:05 [David]

JAMES: some people might look to us

15:46:33 [David]

JAMES: i don't know where we can assign this

15:47:16 [David]

RESOLUTION: leave open David will get back to us re GOV of Canada

15:47:35 [Joshue]

zakim, agenda?

15:47:35 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:

15:47:36 [Zakim]

2. Survey on techniques and comments: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/15thApril2014/ [from AWK]

15:47:36 [Zakim]

3. Survey on Task Force updates: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/April14TFUpdates/ [from AWK]

15:47:36 [Zakim]

4. Comment and techniques status [from AWK]

15:48:08 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

15:48:08 [Zakim]

Joshue_O_Connor should now be muted

15:48:11 [Jon_avila]

q?

15:48:48 [David]

TOPIC: move h87 to a general technique

15:49:02 [David]

q+

15:49:13 [AWK]

ack j

15:49:14 [Jon_avila]

http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_support/BulletinView.asp?QC=1165

15:50:38 [David]

John: put a tech support... 3rd paragraph explains why it was an issue prior to JAWS 8

15:51:18 [David]

the last few sentence about previous issue... requiring refresh

15:51:28 [Jon_avila]

q-

15:51:28 [AWK]

ack d

15:51:56 [Joshue]

DMacD: General Techs tend to get ignored.

15:52:15 [Joshue]

DMacD: They don't have the same profile. What do we do?

15:52:27 [Joshue]

zakim, queue?

15:52:27 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

15:53:13 [David]

AWK: Yes we should work with EO on that

15:53:34 [David]

RESOLUTION:Accepted as proposed LC 2887

15:54:02 [David]

TOPIC: Comment LC-2892: Draft response

15:56:15 [Joshue]

ack me

15:56:30 [David]

AWK: second option is generally accepted.... We could remove the technique

15:57:00 [Joshue]

DMacD: But isn't it important to notify people of changes to the DOM?

15:57:07 [Joshue]

<gives example>

15:57:33 [AWK]

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F76.html

15:57:46 [Joshue]

AWK: This is about changing the userd context.

15:57:50 [Joshue]

s/userd/sers

15:57:59 [Joshue]

s/sers/users

15:58:33 [Joshue]

DMacD: But shouldn't it be required? Shouldn't we have a failure where they don't provide instructions for DOM changes?

15:59:04 [Joshue]

AWK: The only thing thats different here is the notion of where the user location is.

15:59:22 [Joshue]

AWK: Where can you put this, where it's not at a location that may be bypassed?

15:59:39 [Joshue]

DMacD: What about ARIA?

16:00:04 [Joshue]

AWK: Sure, but that's a different technique.

16:00:40 [Joshue]

DMacD: I'd like to think this over.

16:01:03 [Joshue]

AWK: This isn't about DOM changes, but changes in context.

16:02:08 [David]

JOHN: would like to have a failure for this DOM... rather have it more general than not at all

16:02:36 [David]

AWK: if success criteria says it do we need a failure

16:02:56 [Jon_avila]

q?

16:02:56 [Joshue]

+q

16:03:29 [David]

AWK: my gut is we could leave it ope, or remove it for now, and come back faiure techniques

16:03:33 [Jon_avila]

q+

16:03:40 [Joshue]

ack me

16:03:46 [David]

q+

16:03:46 [AWK]

ack jo

16:04:28 [David]

JOSH: should remove it

16:04:36 [AWK]

ack jon

16:04:37 [Joshue]

ack jon

16:05:11 [David]

Jon: agree part of the title is not great... but if we remove failure we loose the test steps

16:05:16 [Zakim]

-Gregg_Vanderheiden

16:05:38 [David]

JON: if we remove this are there any failures with test steps

16:05:58 [David]

JOSH: i don't find test steps useful

16:06:30 [David]

JON: my preference would be to improve test steps

16:07:19 [Joshue]

DMacD: Sounds like we need a larger strategy.

16:07:38 [Joshue]

DMacD: We need to review the way people are doing things now.

16:07:45 [AWK]

ack da

16:08:28 [Joshue]

+q

16:08:37 [Joshue]

-q

16:08:59 [David]

JON: might be able with describedby to modify... maybe reinstate...

16:09:00 [Joshue]

+q

16:09:36 [David]

JON: would it be the same name or number

16:09:44 [David]

AWK: depends

16:10:43 [David]

JON: must weigh danger of leaving it with the what we lose if removed

16:10:56 [David]

AWK: Concerned it has a lot of problems

16:11:21 [Joshue]

ack me

16:12:19 [Joshue]

zakim, queue?

16:12:19 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

16:12:21 [David]

ACTION: David and JON to look at rewriting technique in communication with AWK

16:12:21 [trackbot]

'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dmacdona, dtodd2).

16:13:03 [David]

JAMES: may need mandatory training... should be allowed to replace it

16:13:47 [David]

AWK: leqve open until May 15, pending action by David and JON, but if we don't we will yank...

16:14:04 [Zakim]

-Joshue_O_Connor

16:14:09 [Zakim]

+ +1.212.924.aacc

16:15:04 [MichaelC]

zakim, aacc is John_Kirkwood

16:15:04 [Zakim]

+John_Kirkwood; got it

16:15:21 [David]

RESOLUTION: dmacdona and JON to work on rewriting technique.... if done before May 15 it will be considered... if not drop it.

16:16:06 [MichaelC]

zakim, mute John_

16:16:06 [Zakim]

John_Kirkwood should now be muted

16:16:19 [David]

ACTION: dmacdona and jon to look at rewriting technique f76 in communication with AWK

16:16:20 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-254 - And jon to look at rewriting technique f76 in communication with awk [on David MacDonald - due 2014-04-22].

16:16:52 [kathleen]

q+

16:17:06 [AWK]

ack kath

16:17:17 [David]

Topic: The following is a proposed update to technique H30. The proposal is to add an example 7 to the technique: Example 7REOLUTION:

16:20:20 [Jon_avila]

q+

16:20:31 [Jon_avila]

q?

16:20:34 [AWK]

Ack j

16:20:57 [AWK]

JA: this aligns with the HTML spec

16:21:06 [Jon_avila]

q-

16:21:33 [Kathy]

+1

16:23:19 [AWK]

KW: Works in JAWS

16:24:55 [AWK]

DMD: reading ok with NVDA

16:26:57 [Jon_avila]

I have to drop off the call.

16:27:02 [Zakim]

-Jon_avila

16:28:34 [David]

RESOLUTION: Accepted as ammended H30 new example pending editorial changes

16:30:40 [AWK]

TOPIC: G141 edit

16:32:17 [Zakim]

-James_Nurthen

16:33:46 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

16:33:47 [Zakim]

-kathleen

16:33:47 [Zakim]

-Loretta_Guarino_Reid

16:33:49 [Zakim]

-AWK

16:33:49 [Zakim]

-David_MacDonald

16:33:50 [Zakim]

-Kathy_Wahlbin

16:33:57 [Zakim]

-Katie_Haritos-Shea

16:33:59 [Zakim]

-John_Kirkwood

16:34:05 [AWK]

RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed

16:34:09 [David]

RESOLUTION: accepted as proposed G141 change "would to could" in second paragraph of

16:34:20 [David]

the description

16:34:27 [David]

will do minutes

16:35:04 [AWK]

Anyone with Techniques questions can attend the techniques meeting Thursday at 4pm Eastern.

16:35:13 [AWK]

IRC channel #wcag-techs

16:35:43 [David]

Zakim, list attendees if everyone has not left

16:35:43 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'list attendees if everyone has not left', David

16:36:00 [David]

Zakim, list attendees

16:36:00 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Michael_Cooper, +1.910.278.aaaa, kathleen, Katie_Haritos-Shea, David_MacDonald, +1.703.637.aabb, Jon_avila, Loretta_Guarino_Reid,

16:36:03 [Zakim]

... Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic, Joshue_O_Connor, Gregg_Vanderheiden, James_Nurthen, +1.212.924.aacc, John_Kirkwood

16:36:10 [David]

zakim, bye

16:36:10 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were AWK, Michael_Cooper, +1.910.278.aaaa, kathleen, Katie_Haritos-Shea, David_MacDonald, +1.703.637.aabb, Jon_avila, Loretta_Guarino_Reid,

16:36:10 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag

16:36:13 [Zakim]

... Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic, Joshue_O_Connor, Gregg_Vanderheiden, James_Nurthen, +1.212.924.aacc, John_Kirkwood

16:36:22 [David]

rrsagent, make log public

16:36:32 [David]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:36:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html David

18:05:23 [GreggVan]

GreggVan has joined #WAI-WCAG