IRC log of html-wg on 2014-04-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:07 [krisk_]
rrsagent, generate minutes
00:00:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate krisk_
00:00:23 [krisk_]
rubys: meeting ar recess until tomorrow morning at 9am PST
00:01:11 [rubys]
s/ar recess/at recess/
00:03:13 [gitbot]
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[13syntax] 15sideshowbarker pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02
00:03:13 [gitbot]
13syntax/06master 14cb21b53 15Michael[tm] Smith: Minor change.
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[13html] 15techtoons pushed 1 new commit to 06html5_canvas_CR: 02
03:20:09 [gitbot]
13html/06html5_canvas_CR 14c209df3 15Jay Munro: Added clearHitRegion() and other edits...
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[13html] 15techtoons pushed 1 new commit to 06html5_canvas_CR: 02
03:23:31 [gitbot]
13html/06html5_canvas_CR 14b17e400 15Jay Munro: added trace a path back...
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16:08:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:08:49 [joesteele]
scribenick: joesteele
16:08:51 [joesteele]
chair: paulc
16:09:15 [joesteele]
Zakim, who is here?
16:09:15 [Zakim]
sorry, joesteele, I don't know what conference this is
16:09:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, IanPouncey, adrianba, joesteele, rubys, ArtB, aizu, cyril, markw, plh, dsinger, paulc, glenn, acolwell, jernoble, tantek, darobin, anssik, Lachy,
16:09:17 [Zakim]
... krit, krijnhoetmer, arronei, jaymunro, denis, jgraham, wilhelm, tH, gavin, slightlyoff_, hober, cwilso__, paul___irish, decadance, tobie__, AAA_awright, gsnedders, heycam|away,
16:09:21 [Zakim]
... cabanier, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, mattur, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie, ed, MikeSmith, trackbot
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16:12:01 [plh]
zakim, room for 10 for 120 minutes?
16:12:04 [Zakim]
ok, plh; conference Team_(html-wg)16:12Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 120 minutes until 1812Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
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16:12:11 [markw]
.me conference bridge is still "restricted"
16:12:26 [plh]
passcode is 26631
16:12:38 [plh]
please use this when connecting on the bridge
16:12:42 [Zakim]
Team_(html-wg)16:12Z has now started
16:12:50 [Zakim]
16:12:53 [Zakim]
16:13:04 [Zakim]
16:13:25 [markw]
Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:13:25 [Zakim]
+markw; got it
16:13:29 [joesteele]
Zakim, who is here?
16:13:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal]
16:13:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see adrianba, edoyle, krisk, Arrrno, eliot, xiaoqian, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanPouncey, joesteele, rubys, ArtB, aizu, cyril, markw, plh, dsinger, paulc, glenn, acolwell,
16:13:30 [Zakim]
... jernoble, tantek, darobin, anssik, Lachy, krit, krijnhoetmer, arronei, jaymunro, denis, jgraham, wilhelm, tH, gavin, slightlyoff_, hober, cwilso__, paul___irish, decadance,
16:13:31 [paulc]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:13:32 [Zakim]
... tobie__, AAA_awright, gsnedders, heycam|away, cabanier, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, mattur, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie, ed, MikeSmith, trackbot
16:13:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal]
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16:14:23 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:14:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:14:29 [adrianba_]
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16:14:45 [cyril]
zakim, who is here ?
16:14:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal], [IPcaller]
16:14:46 [jdsmith]
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16:14:47 [Zakim]
On IRC I see adrianba_, BobLund, adrianba, edoyle, krisk, Arrrno, eliot, xiaoqian, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanPouncey, joesteele, rubys, ArtB, aizu, cyril, markw, plh, dsinger, paulc,
16:14:47 [Zakim]
... glenn, acolwell, jernoble, tantek, darobin, anssik, Lachy, krit, krijnhoetmer, arronei, jaymunro, denis, jgraham, wilhelm, tH, gavin, slightlyoff_, hober, cwilso__,
16:14:51 [Zakim]
... paul___irish, decadance, tobie__, AAA_awright, gsnedders, heycam|away, cabanier, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, mattur, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie,
16:14:51 [Zakim]
... ed, MikeSmith
16:15:01 [joesteele]
paulc: walking through the agenda first
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16:15:24 [cyril]
zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:15:24 [Zakim]
+cyril; got it
16:15:52 [joesteele]
paulc: this is the meila -
16:15:55 [ddorwin]
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16:16:07 [joesteele]
... posted a link to the review of the pull request
16:16:20 [krisk]
A number of issues are in the 'critic' tool - indeed some good tests that expose interop issues in IE and Chrome
16:16:20 [joesteele]
... some comments supplied by folks in the room
16:16:21 [krisk]
16:16:29 [Mick]
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16:16:34 [joesteele]
... maybe Phillipe could give a review
16:16:47 [Mick]
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16:16:54 [joesteele]
phillipe: <discussing the review process>
16:17:12 [joesteele]
... fixed link in one of the test -- Simon saying it needs to be fixed
16:17:24 [joesteele]
... once it is addressed, people says whether is acceptable
16:17:26 [Mick_Hakobyan]
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16:17:37 [joesteele]
paulc: was Aaron notified of each of the comments?
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16:17:49 [joesteele]
acolwell: hadn't been notified of some comments
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16:18:04 [joesteele]
... put saw when Kris posted to the pull request
16:18:48 [joesteele]
paulc: next step is for Aaron to work with the critics and see what changes can be made
16:18:54 [joesteele]
discussion of which email address should be used -- looks like Aaron was setup incorrectly
16:18:59 [joesteele]
acolwell: ok -- did not know about the comments before
16:19:18 [joesteele]
paulc: right -- I coped the folks sending comments and sent to you
16:19:27 [krisk]
Until the critic email notification is fixed we can just make sure to make a comment in github when their is a status change
16:19:33 [joesteele]
... like to assign an action item to you for this
16:19:37 [joesteele]
acolwell: ok
16:20:21 [joesteele]
ACTION: acolwell to Review the comments on proposed MSE test suites in two weeks
16:20:21 [trackbot]
Error finding 'acolwell'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
16:20:59 [joesteele]
acolwell: resolution may take longer to figure out what the right behavior is
16:21:13 [joesteele]
paulc: if you need help with github -- asl
16:21:19 [joesteele]
16:21:37 [joesteele]
Topic: CR bug status of MSE
16:21:41 [joesteele]
pauc: 5 of these bugs are fixed
16:21:54 [joesteele]
s/pauc: /paulc: /
16:22:06 [joesteele]
paulc: aaron sent out "cyril draft"
16:22:24 [joesteele]
... going to second link in the email
16:22:36 [joesteele]
... Aaron summarizes long thread about this problem
16:22:40 [tantek_]
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16:22:48 [joesteele]
... some expressions of support for this direction
16:22:51 [joesteele]
... in email
16:23:37 [joesteele]
acolwell: David Singers resposne talks about one of the requests
16:23:59 [joesteele]
... resolution for this I think is two remove some of the definitions MSE makes of language and tie on the track objects
16:24:10 [joesteele]
s/and tie/and time/
16:24:26 [joesteele]
paulc: MSE proposed to make language and time mutable -- ie change in full flight
16:24:32 [joesteele]
... lots of push back on this
16:24:48 [joesteele]
... general conclusion is that those should be fixed during the track and should not change
16:25:09 [joesteele]
... applies to audio, text, anything
16:25:25 [joesteele]
?1: user can elect to change
16:25:39 [joesteele]
acolwell: proposed changes is to remove the definitions from MSE
16:25:54 [joesteele]
... MSE will conform to what HTML5 spec says does not add text for this
16:26:09 [joesteele]
... if time needs to change within a track follow HTML5 guideline
16:26:19 [joesteele]
... think that means removing the track and adding a new track
16:26:29 [zqzhang]
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16:26:52 [joesteele]
... second part -- one of orig. justifications is that time is not available in ISOBMFF file
16:28:16 [joesteele]
... third thing - MSE spec should be more clear around language and time
16:28:23 [joesteele]
... looking for input from David and others on how to change this MPEG spec
16:28:29 [gavin]
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16:29:39 [joesteele_]
pal: one #2 have a question
16:29:51 [joesteele_]
... are you syaing this cannot be communicated via HTML5?
16:30:02 [cyril]
16:30:11 [joesteele_]
acolwell: no - saying we would defined boxes saying what the time attributes could be -- not communicated today
16:30:18 [markw]
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16:30:48 [joesteele_]
pal: this might exist outside the ISOBMFF package?
16:30:57 [joesteele_]
acolwell: if so then the app has to deal with it
16:31:16 [joesteele_]
pal: then you are proposing to duplicate this rather than using it where is is today?
16:31:48 [joesteele_]
pal: is there another way of communicating that information so it can be reflect back to the HTML attributes?
16:32:05 [joesteele_]
acolwell: could probably define special docs? to do this
16:32:16 [joesteele_]
paulc: pierre is looking for an API solution
16:32:24 [joesteele_]
pal: trying to avoid having these boxes be a requirement
16:32:44 [joesteele_]
acolwell: making time immutable seems to be most natural - but that creates a problem
16:33:01 [joesteele_]
pal: would like to explore ways of doing this that do not require a new required box
16:33:17 [joesteele_]
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16:33:30 [BobLund]
16:33:30 [joesteele_]
ack cyril
16:34:06 [joesteele_]
cyril: I proposed with CableLabs some extensions to the DASH manifest for new roles values that would map to HTML time
16:34:19 [jdsmith]
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16:34:26 [joesteele_]
... I think would be a good idea to carry the time in the MP4 format for WebVTT for example
16:34:48 [joesteele_]
... I also agree with Pierre - maybe an API to set the time and language in some sort of constructor
16:34:53 [tantek]
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16:34:59 [joesteele_]
... not at just any time -- would be useful
16:35:05 [joesteele_]
ack markw
16:35:18 [joesteele_]
markw: the time needs to be in the manifest whatever manifest we use
16:35:28 [joesteele_]
... needs to know when it is downloaded
16:35:37 [joesteele_]
... could also be in the MP4 file but must be in the manifest
16:35:52 [joesteele_]
... also agree that there is not need to change it after construction
16:36:04 [joesteele_]
ack BobLund
16:36:15 [markw]
s/time needs to be/kind needs to be/
16:36:23 [joesteele_]
BobLund: agree it should be in the manifest and should not be mutable
16:36:34 [joesteele_]
... but not all media formats include thi sin-band
16:36:44 [markw]
s/needs to know when/application needs to know before/
16:36:49 [joesteele_]
glenn: if we add something to ISOBMFF need to add for other formats
16:36:58 [joesteele_]
... seems to have been added by WebVTT folks
16:37:31 [joesteele_]
cyril: need to make my contribution public and then will send to the list
16:37:44 [joesteele_]
paulc: sounds like this was made to imply it is mutable at any time
16:37:54 [joesteele_]
... but having a constructor to set this would be a good idea
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16:38:16 [joesteele_]
markw: have a chicken and egg problem - no point at which you can intercept construction of the track
16:38:32 [joesteele_]
cyril: but when your source buffer is single track this is possible?
16:38:58 [acolwell]
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16:39:00 [joesteele_]
aaron: not sure what that buys us though
16:39:19 [joesteele_]
s/markw: have a /acolwell: have a /
16:39:29 [joesteele_]
s/aaron: /acolwell: /
16:39:38 [joesteele_]
paulc: sounds like we have concensus for #1
16:39:53 [joesteele_]
pal: #2 is not sufficient
16:40:17 [joesteele_]
paulc: #3 we need to get these changes made to HTML5 - and what she should do about it is the next step there
16:40:28 [joesteele_]
... pal - you need to respond to this and continue the dialogue
16:40:29 [acolwell]
16:40:37 [joesteele_]
... we can get #1 and #3 started
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16:40:51 [joesteele_]
... Aaron think that is enough for today
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16:41:15 [joesteele_]
acolwell: think we have concensus for #1 - is there an alternate proposed or should I just remove language?
16:41:33 [joesteele_]
paulc: I am ok with leaving the bug open with note about waiting for concensus
16:41:49 [joesteele_]
acolwell: since we are removing mutable language -- process issues?
16:41:57 [joesteele_]
paulc: worry about that later
16:42:13 [joesteele_]
.. .may be first of several items
16:42:36 [joesteele_]
ACTION: paulc to make sure HTML5 bugs filed for item #3
16:42:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-243 - Make sure html5 bugs filed for item #3 [on Paul Cotton - due 2014-04-16].
16:42:53 [joesteele_]
Topic: Last two items
16:43:11 [joesteele_]
paulc: Aaron publishers an editors draft that resolve 3 of the bugs - cyril should review
16:43:22 [joesteele_]
16:43:27 [joesteele_]
cyril: will review
16:43:40 [joesteele_]
Topic: Audio bytestream format
16:43:53 [joesteele_]
paulc: Aaron posted this in his email -- seemed to be some support
16:44:06 [joesteele_]
cyril: yes I was about to submit something for that also
16:44:25 [joesteele_]
s/Last two items/Editors draft/
16:44:47 [joesteele_]
cyril: question about byte range format - would work as expecte din sequence mode but not in segment mode - correct?
16:44:59 [joesteele_]
acolwell: would act very similar
16:45:15 [joesteele_]
s/expect din/expected in/
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16:45:24 [joesteele_]
cyril: will look more carefully then
16:45:56 [joesteele_]
paulc: if Aaron posts the link in that email you can contiue to provide comments
16:46:09 [joesteele_]
... Aaron more to talk about?
16:46:30 [joesteele_]
acolwell: are people ok with me putting the spec in the registry?
16:46:39 [joesteele_]
paulc: any objections or more time needed?
16:46:49 [joesteele_]
?2: would like to review
16:47:02 [joesteele_]
paulc: please add this to email
16:47:12 [joesteele_]
16:47:18 [joesteele_]
s/?2: /jdsmith: /
16:47:55 [joesteele_]
pal: question about Aarons concern - is the concern that when you do addsourcebuffer, you don't know how many tracks will be created?
16:48:16 [joesteele_]
acolwell: application has not information to uniquely identify tracks, so would be hard for application to target tracks
16:48:20 [joesteele_]
pal: go it
16:48:45 [joesteele_]
paulc: reviewing email again --
16:49:04 [joesteele_]
... Aaron will hold of on making changes until more dialog about API possibilities
16:49:17 [joesteele_]
... box format will wait for more feedback from David Singer
16:49:31 [joesteele_]
... Cyril will review spec updates
16:49:41 [joesteele_]
... Jerry will take time to review audio formats
16:50:23 [joesteele_]
Topic: EME discussion
16:51:22 [krisk]
scribe: krisk
16:52:18 [plh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:52:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate plh
16:52:46 [plh]
Meeting: HTML Working Group face-to-face
16:53:01 [plh]
Regrets: Travis
16:53:09 [krisk]
We are going to be going through a number of EME Bugs
16:53:23 [MarkVickers]
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16:53:25 [krisk]
See ->
16:53:30 [paulc]
16:53:33 [paulc]
ack ac
16:53:41 [krisk]
First bug is
16:53:55 [krisk]
EME should use promises
16:54:33 [krisk]
TOPIC: EME Should use Promises
16:54:46 [krisk]
16:55:06 [plh]
Present: Mike, Eliot, PAL, adrian, Erika, MarkS, Jay, Bob, Kris, Robin, Jerry, Arnaud, Zhihang, Cindy, Neils, Cynthia, Glenn, plh, Sam, Paul, Tantek, Ted, Jer, David, Aaron, MarkW, Cyril, MarkV
16:55:13 [plh]
Present+ Joe
16:55:25 [krisk]
Which Blocks: 17750 21798 24081 24216 24771.
16:55:28 [Arrrno]
Present+ Arnaud_Braud
16:56:00 [plh]
plh has changed the topic to: HTML Working Group Face-to-face: passcode 26631
16:56:32 [MikeSmith]
16:56:45 [krisk]
All the bugs deal with async and promises are mechanism for async
16:57:10 [krisk]
At the last meeting April 1st people needed more time to think about using promises for this purpose
16:57:16 [plh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:57:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate plh
16:57:32 [krisk]
The main bug has the proposed IDL change
16:57:52 [mjs]
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16:57:54 [krisk]
Any feedback?
16:58:07 [Zakim]
16:58:14 [krisk]
joesteele: This is a good change and in the direction of the W3C tag
16:58:32 [krisk]
...are other changes like this going to be made in HTML5? Or will it wait until 5.1?
16:58:56 [krisk]
darobin: New apis are expected to use promises
16:59:29 [krisk]
paulc: Others have been changed in last call/WD status even before promises moved out of DOM4 and into ECMA script
16:59:41 [adrianba]
16:59:43 [krisk]
paulc: any objections?
16:59:52 [krisk]
ack adrianba
16:59:53 [paulc]
ack adrian
17:00:18 [krisk]
adrianba: This is a good direction and change to make, but I have some detail questions
17:00:36 [krisk]
..for example I'm not sure how the promise works with the release method
17:00:45 [krisk]'s not clear when the promise completes
17:01:08 [krisk]
..The best approach maybe to make this change and then itterate on the details that comeout
17:01:31 [krisk]
ddorwin: Yes I added a comment in the bug about this.
17:01:37 [krisk]
paulc: Room agrees
17:01:38 [plh]
Present+ Prabhakar_Goyal
17:01:45 [JohnJansen]
Present+ JohnJansen
17:01:56 [plh]
Present+ Sean_Snider
17:01:58 [krisk]
paulc: I'm concerned about not discussing the other bugs that are blocked
17:02:02 [krisk]
* Hi johnjan!
17:02:47 [krisk]
jdsmith: We have all replied back to these bugs
17:03:18 [krisk]
paulc: What I am asking for when is the next meeting and with enough next steps to know the overall status of the next meeting
17:03:45 [krisk]
paulc: Maybe these 'blocked' bugs can be addressed or have progress on once the main bug is addressed (25199)
17:03:46 [joesteele_]
17:04:00 [krisk]
ddorwin: Some of these may just be fixed or need minor changes
17:04:35 [krisk]
paulc: Once the root bug is fixed can you send something to the TF on what needs to be done with the other bugs (maybe close/duped by the root bug)
17:04:48 [krisk]
Action: ddorwin
17:04:54 [dauwhe]
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17:05:41 [krisk]
Action: ddorwin to fix the main bug and propose a direction for the other 5 blocker bugs
17:05:41 [trackbot]
Error finding 'ddorwin'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
17:05:48 [Zakim]
17:06:05 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
17:06:05 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
17:06:29 [krisk]
joesteele: Some of the bugs may not be fixed...
17:06:54 [krisk]
Bug 17750, Bug 24216
17:07:31 [krisk]
paulc: The right think to do is send an email that even with the async change these bugs won't be addressed
17:08:03 [krisk]
joesteele: OK
17:08:53 [krisk]
adrianba: I wonder if we can have this discussion now about these bugs
17:08:58 [krisk]
joesteele Sure
17:09:26 [krisk]
joesteele: Let discuss and email on the list
17:09:34 [rubys2]
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17:09:55 [joesteele_]
17:10:30 [krisk]
joesteele: The issue I'm trying to raise here - a session is composed of licenses and keys
17:10:46 [krisk]
..Load session and release assume a single content key
17:11:11 [krisk]
joesteele: You can deliver keys at a higher level that a specific content stream
17:11:38 [krisk]
..if you impl release/session on a lower level it can impact a higher level
17:11:55 [joesteele_]
17:12:09 [joesteele_]
this is the diagram I was talking about
17:12:45 [krisk]
joesteele: This is from a number of DRMs
17:13:08 [krisk]
joesteele: It more complex - device, player, content and wrapper keys
17:13:26 [krisk]
...The spec needs to allow the CDN manage these keys
17:13:40 [krisk]
The app need to just know about two keys
17:14:14 [pal]
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17:14:16 [krisk]
...Mark has talked about an app releasing a specific key - so that a movie can then be played on another device
17:14:40 [krisk]
paulc: These are really about the API and not about the async
17:15:05 [krisk]
joesteele: Yes this orthogonal to the async bug
17:15:20 [krisk]
paulc: do we have a specific bug that covers supported a differenet model
17:15:39 [krisk]
ddorwin: I'm not aware of such a bug
17:15:57 [joesteele_]
This is the bug --
17:15:58 [krisk]
joesteele: Bug 25218 is close but nor complete
17:16:09 [krisk]
17:16:34 [krisk]
paulc: Is this email linked to bug #25218
17:17:03 [krisk]
ddorwin: The goal is to make various systems interoperable
17:17:07 [paulc]
17:17:16 [krisk]
...alot of other ways exist
17:17:28 [krisk]
..but EME is generic and simple
17:17:37 [krisk]
..the model is session based
17:18:08 [krisk]
..What happens if you load a key from another sessions, you should not do this...
17:18:22 [krisk]
..I understand the domain thing, but I don't think it's interoperable
17:18:49 [krisk]
..Likewise if it's built to support a specific device it won't work on other devices
17:19:01 [niels_t]
17:19:05 [krisk]
..I'm worried that do this change will cause more interop issues
17:19:11 [glenn]
17:19:23 [krisk]
..We should fix the common case and then move to some other complex cases
17:19:36 [krisk]
..For example web crypto..
17:19:46 [paulc]
ack joe
17:19:54 [pal]
17:19:56 [krisk]
niels_t: We do see limits in EME
17:20:08 [joesteele_]
17:20:13 [krisk]
..allowing the CDM to contact the license server directly
17:20:19 [krisk]
..intitlal for legacy
17:20:30 [krisk]
..but now we see additional use cases (init)
17:20:39 [krisk]
..could be allowed by this change
17:20:54 [ddorwin]
17:20:54 [krisk] could be more of a conceptual change in the abstract
17:21:01 [markw]
17:21:03 [paulc]
ack niels
17:21:15 [paulc]
ack glenn
17:21:29 [krisk]
glenn: To the comments about supporting exist solutions
17:21:42 [BobLund]
17:21:47 [krisk]
..EME came about to support existing systems is an implicit goals
17:22:24 [krisk]
..from cox's perspect we do have intrest in various legacy systems (adobe, microsoft, etc.) would be a major issue for adopting EME
17:22:27 [paulc]
ack pal
17:22:54 [krisk]
pal: At a very high level, encrypted media comes in, but I have a CDM
17:23:04 [krisk]
..I get a key and decrypt
17:23:20 [krisk]
..or a few others, so I create a connection to the CDM
17:23:27 [astearns]
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17:23:43 [krisk]
..CDM can make a call to get the right keys to the client
17:24:07 [krisk]
..This part doesn't really matter - how the keys get created by the CDM
17:24:20 [krisk]
..I don't understand how this impacts apps
17:25:26 [krisk]
ddorwin: It comes down to wanting to release a single key driven by the app and impact the whole session
17:25:43 [krisk]
pal: doesn't the api support this?
17:25:56 [krisk]
joesteele: But this starts all over
17:26:02 [niels_t]
17:26:28 [krisk]
..I'm done releaseing the license for a movie the only way is to release them all
17:26:31 [rniwa]
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17:27:28 [krisk]
ddorwin: joe wants to release some but not all keys
17:27:47 [krisk]
joesteel: The CDM can tell the app to release specific keys
17:28:06 [krisk]
..The spec says to release all keys
17:28:15 [krisk]
pal: I'm just trying to understand
17:28:28 [krisk]
ddorwin: I don't think the spec states this..
17:28:34 [krisk]
others agree in the room
17:28:53 [krisk]
glenn: But the app has no 'hints'
17:29:04 [krisk]
pal: The current spec doesn't block this..
17:29:43 [krisk]
pal: are we missing arguments in the release call itself?
17:30:13 [krisk]
boblund: If the you want to persist some information then the CDM needs some information
17:30:44 [krisk]
ddorwin: Their is ambiguity in this and they exploit this ambigutiy we have interop issues
17:31:08 [krisk]
..We are seeing this in real places that breaks interop
17:31:34 [krisk]
..This is even using the simple model that makes a Chrome, Microsoft and Adobe app not work when they should
17:31:36 [glenn]
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17:31:47 [pal]
17:31:50 [joesteele_]
ack joesteele_
17:31:59 [paulc]
ack dd
17:32:16 [krisk]
ddorwin: I want to point out that it's not just about API compliance, it's about the behaviour you get
17:32:38 [krisk]
..So we need to not have this ambiguity
17:33:03 [joesteele_]
17:33:11 [krisk]
..I have seen in production this breaks interop and solve behaviour compliance and not just the API compliance
17:33:17 [paulc]
ack markw
17:33:43 [krisk]
markw: I think that ddorwin if correct that adding complexity is the way to go
17:33:56 [krisk]
17:34:04 [joesteele_]
my goal is to *hide* the complexity not to expose it
17:34:51 [krisk]
markw: The whole point about EME was to make this easy and simple which will address interop on various devices
17:35:08 [ddorwin]
I agree with what Mark said above.
17:35:30 [paulc]
ack bob
17:35:47 [krisk]
boblund: I agree with markw that EME should make things as simple as possible
17:36:09 [krisk]
boblund: But if we don't suport uses cases that are used today we are not going to get broad adoption
17:36:13 [paulc]
ack niel
17:36:46 [krisk]
niels_t: from my analysis side channel communication will help interop and enable broad adoption
17:37:37 [krisk]
..I don't know the limits where a specific interop issue will arise with side channel
17:38:07 [krisk]
ddorwin: This won't work with current EME and impacts privacy and security (CORS)
17:39:16 [krisk]
ddorwin: part of the spec process is to respect normal web security and privacy
17:39:18 [paulc]
ack glenn
17:39:40 [krisk]
glenn: On a release issue - release is only advisory issue, correct?
17:39:47 [krisk]
ddorwin: correct
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17:39:51 [gitbot]
[13html] 15darobin pushed 1 new commit to 06CR: 02
17:39:51 [gitbot]
13html/06CR 14043fcbf 15Robin Berjon: trailing comma in enum SelectionMode...
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17:40:11 [krisk]
glenn: So adding a hint doesn't seem to increase ambiguity
17:40:14 [gitbot]
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17:40:14 [gitbot]
[13html] 15darobin pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02
17:40:14 [gitbot]
13html/06master 146af16db 15Robin Berjon: trailing comma in enum SelectionMode
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17:40:38 [krisk]
glenn: since we have not speced the UA to CDM nothing is preventing the UA to create issues
17:40:42 [MarkVickers]
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17:40:47 [krisk]
..maybe it's not a problem between CDM and UAs
17:40:54 [paulc]
17:40:56 [krisk]
..I think their are options here
17:41:14 [krisk]
pal: I'm trying get to the actual spec, let's talk about release
17:41:24 [krisk] their a problem with release as spec'd
17:41:49 [krisk]
joesteele: Yes it needs to be more specific
17:41:56 [krisk]
pal: It's spec'd as a hint...
17:42:22 [krisk]
joesteele: I have seem that this has become more than a hit and impacts a CDM
17:42:30 [paulc]
ack joe
17:42:31 [krisk]
17:42:43 [paulc]
ack pal
17:43:01 [krisk]
joesteele: The last thing I wanted to point out was that adding support for domains increase complexity
17:43:40 [krisk]
joesteele: We just need text in the spec that either says this is OK or gets specific
17:43:51 [krisk]
..leaving this in the domain in the CDM
17:44:26 [krisk]
paulc: are their any specific bugs to change the release method?
17:44:35 [krisk]
..Because I don't see them..
17:44:48 [krisk]
joesteele: Not in the bug just in the email
17:45:45 [krisk]
paulc: Let's try to continue on the agenda and assume when we get to the related bug later to skip over since we had a good discussion about this issue
17:45:55 [krisk]
rrsagent, generate minutes
17:45:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate krisk
18:00:12 [Mick_Hakobyan]
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18:01:02 [joesteele_]
18:01:05 [joesteele_]
18:04:03 [krisk]
TOPIC: Bug 25267 - Remove ability for in-memory sessions to be re-used
18:04:10 [krisk]
18:04:34 [krisk]
paulc: are the dependancies correct?
18:05:09 [krisk]
ddorwin: It's to deal with interop issues
18:05:23 [krisk]
dorwin: I think we need to have more consistent behaviour
18:05:46 [krisk]
..when doing adaptive streaming you can get the same keys, over and over
18:05:53 [krisk]
..which will create new media sessions
18:06:12 [krisk]
..So this text was added to just re-use an existing session
18:06:32 [krisk]
Paulc: is related to 25268?
18:07:05 [krisk]
ddorwin: I'd like to find a new way other than this bug..basically if we fix bug 25268 it should resolve this issue
18:07:40 [krisk]
pal: can we bring up the text?
18:08:13 [ddorwin]
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18:08:34 [ddorwin]
25267 is referring to the Otherwise branch of step 10 of
18:09:20 [krisk]
ddrobin: basically remove all of the checks...
18:09:35 [krisk]
..or maybe refered to in the normative note
18:10:19 [krisk]
adrianba: I think it's section 6.2
18:10:45 [MarkVickers]
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18:11:25 [joesteele_]
18:11:50 [paulc]
ack joe
18:11:55 [krisk]
ddorwin: I agree with adrianba (other than what we discussed earlier)
18:12:11 [krisk]
joesteele: I need more clarity
18:12:23 [krisk]
ddorwin: You would always expect a message to be fired
18:12:35 [krisk]
pal: TO understand the specific
18:12:45 [krisk]
..step 10 would be changed?
18:13:11 [krisk]
paulc: no in step 6 is where it will get done
18:13:28 [joesteele_]
18:13:47 [krisk]
adrianba: yes, at the end in step 10 you can move to ready
18:13:51 [BobLund]
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18:13:58 [krisk]
..basically you don't need to fire a message
18:14:19 [krisk] step 6 part 2 make this required
18:14:37 [krisk]
pal: request variable, what is the variable type?
18:14:51 [krisk]
adrianba: the message attribute has this information
18:15:09 [krisk]
pal: the proposal is to always fire the message, but could be null
18:15:39 [krisk]
adrianba: could be an empty array
18:16:55 [krisk]
adrianba: I think having empty messages could cause more interop issues
18:17:09 [krisk]
ddorwin: I agree with adrianba
18:17:20 [krisk]
joesteele: I don't here is whay..
18:17:24 [krisk]
18:17:40 [krisk]
one case is that the device has the key and not need to make a request
18:18:20 [krisk]
ddorwin: This is not interoperable
18:18:40 [krisk]
joesteele: I like the way the spec is today..
18:18:51 [krisk]
paulc: what should we do with these bugs?
18:19:43 [krisk]
ddorwin: I know what I'd like to do with these bugs...
18:19:58 [krisk]
...not take this change and accept 25268
18:20:25 [krisk]
adrianba: I don't understand why making firing the event optional makes writitng apps harder
18:20:34 [krisk]
ddorwin: This came from app devs...
18:20:55 [krisk]
ddorwin: I'd like to solve the overall problem and then this goes away
18:21:24 [krisk]
pal: Do we have specifics from an app dev why making this change makes it easier
18:21:59 [krisk]
ddorwin: putting the app in control - maybe they want a new session is lost with this change
18:22:20 [krisk]
paulc: so their is no symetry
18:22:40 [krisk]
adrianba: why would you want this??
18:23:44 [krisk]
pal: is it that the app started a new session and didn't get a new key from the cdm
18:23:51 [krisk]
..on the new session?
18:24:03 [krisk]
ddorwin: yes that is what was presented to me
18:24:05 [adrianba]
18:24:33 [krisk]
ddorwin: it's really up to the CDM
18:24:52 [krisk]
joesteele: It really is that the CDM may or maynot provide a key
18:25:16 [krisk]
..maybe add another flag?
18:25:30 [krisk]
ddorwin: I'd rather move to the next bug which will fix this issue
18:25:59 [krisk]
paulc: will the editors take on these bugs?
18:26:12 [krisk]
adrianba: we have not reached concensus on 25267
18:26:26 [krisk]
..and have not discussed 25268 to set the scene
18:26:49 [krisk]
with 25268 ddorwin is describing a problem we have discussed a few times
18:27:05 [paulc]
18:27:06 [krisk]
..basically you end up with multiple net requests...
18:27:32 [krisk] doesn't sound like this woudl be a complete fix
18:27:56 [krisk]
ddorwin: 25268 is the biggest issue for EME app devs..
18:28:13 [krisk]
Bug 25268 - Reduce the burden on applications to dedupe initData from
18:28:37 [krisk]
ddorwin: what is an app to do? simplest is to ignore but is key system specific
18:28:49 [krisk]
..the goal is to allow the app to know what to do...
18:29:04 [krisk]
..The previous misses some cases
18:29:15 [krisk]
...It pretty complex for an app to deal with..
18:29:24 [krisk]
..and might break down with key rotation
18:29:52 [krisk]
..even in the previous bug you'll end up with hundreds of sessions which is not good
18:30:14 [paulc]
Review previous bugs related to this: (bug 16553, bug 19208, bug 21855)
18:30:20 [krisk]
paulc: Please review the old bugs listed in 25268
18:30:44 [krisk]
TOPIC: Bug 25269 - Add a container-independent initialization data type for
18:30:54 [krisk]
18:31:22 [krisk]
ddorwin: nothing fundemental says that the keys must come from the media
18:31:54 [krisk]
..basically it's container independent structure for keys or psh systems
18:32:18 [krisk]
..the license request should not be restricted by a container format
18:32:20 [joesteele_]
18:32:36 [krisk]
..simple just need to make it accessible via javascript
18:33:01 [krisk]
..herry was asking why psh's are even needed?
18:33:24 [paulc]
See historical email about PSSHs:
18:33:29 [plh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
18:33:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate plh
18:33:44 [krisk]
...but this is ortho to this issue
18:33:50 [paulc]
ack joe
18:34:01 [krisk]
joesteele: The reason I brought this up - not that this is a bad idea
18:34:24 [krisk]
joesteele: How would one support this for content that exists
18:34:43 [adrianba]
18:35:05 [krisk]
..the only mechansim for how I would support tihs would be to make a new request and I would get the actual psh
18:35:21 [krisk]
..which leads to what is in the session, since thie psh is now part of the session
18:35:46 [krisk]
..It's not a bad idea but I don't see how this would work for DRM's that use pshs
18:36:02 [krisk]
ddorwin: This is part of accepting using EME
18:36:16 [krisk]
joesteele: This is fundemental to how DRM exists today
18:36:43 [krisk]
ddorwin: If an app wants to do this then their key systems needs to support this but it's not required.
18:36:56 [krisk]
..We are not replacing PSHs
18:36:57 [mjs]
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18:37:22 [krisk]
..adrianba has a nice change in the spe
18:37:24 [ddorwin]
initDataType registry:
18:37:26 [krisk]
18:38:08 [krisk]
We would add a new item but all of these are optional, just like webm or cenc
18:38:22 [krisk]
paulc: any more need to discuss
18:38:28 [adrianba]
18:38:41 [krisk]
joesteele: doesn't seem to do damage but doesn't seem to support my DRM system
18:38:48 [krisk]
joesteele: what is missing?
18:39:12 [krisk]
..we would need to have more information in the session
18:39:23 [krisk]
ddorwin: you can do this today
18:39:49 [paulc]
18:39:51 [paulc]
ack ad
18:40:06 [krisk]
adrianba: The one question I had was the for the other intitData types, we talk about how they get called
18:40:22 [krisk] this just for call createsession with?
18:40:51 [niels_t]
18:40:53 [krisk]
adrianba: it sounds like a good solution when you get keys from a manifest
18:40:59 [krisk] it seems reasonable
18:41:10 [krisk]
ddorwin: only need to figureout the best format
18:41:15 [paulc]
ack niels
18:41:18 [krisk]
18:41:50 [krisk]
neils: To support joe's view we have simalar need to persist the pshs
18:42:14 [jaymunro]
18:42:14 [krisk]
TOPIC: Bug 25092 - Need a way to inform script that resolution restrictions
18:42:26 [krisk]
18:42:33 [krisk]
Looks like Mark responded
18:42:43 [krisk]
paulc: what is the next step here
18:42:53 [krisk]
ddorwin: We don't have a good use case for this issue
18:43:07 [paulc]
18:43:11 [paulc]
18:43:17 [pal]
18:43:51 [krisk]
markw: I'm looking right now..
18:44:11 [krisk]
pal: we discussed this in the past that was simalar
18:44:30 [krisk]
..for example some css transformation may not be available
18:44:52 [krisk]
..seems like we don't have a way to inform the app what is available, permitted or not permitted
18:45:36 [krisk]
glenn: no real way to do this in general - some terrible poor hueristics
18:46:05 [krisk]
markw: the multiple key thinks looks like a hack
18:46:26 [ddorwin]
s/We don't have a good use case for this issue/We don't have an agreed upon solution for this issue/
18:47:39 [krisk]
paulc: we'll just continue the dialog in the bug, please add your comments to the bug
18:47:54 [krisk]
TOPIC: Bug 25200 - Add optional "licenseType" parameter to createSession()
18:48:07 [krisk]
18:48:12 [paulc]
See clarification in
18:48:36 [krisk]
ddorwin: I was going for the normal streaming case as well as persisted (offline on a plane)
18:49:01 [joesteele_]
18:49:13 [krisk]
ddorwin: app needs to tell drm what it wants - save to play later (offline) for example
18:49:31 [krisk]
ddorwin: The others are TBD or other session types...
18:49:59 [krisk]
paulc: we have a long email thread, is the related?
18:50:26 [markw]
18:50:29 [krisk]
ddorwin: I tried to clarify that I am trying to solve the offline case, though other cases are being discussed
18:50:56 [krisk]
..I'm trying to get back to the main use case and then from their we could potentially build on the enum
18:51:05 [krisk] support other use cases
18:51:12 [adrianba]
18:51:18 [paulc]
ack pal
18:51:20 [paulc]
ack joe
18:51:30 [paulc]
ack markw
18:51:44 [paulc]
ack ad
18:51:53 [joesteele_]
18:52:04 [markw]
18:52:41 [krisk]
adrianba: The message signature - I'd like a dictionary, since I'm worried we need to add another para later
18:52:54 [krisk]
18:53:22 [krisk]
ddorwin: the point of this is to make it obvious so as long as the dictionary is specific
18:53:25 [paulc]
ack joe
18:53:54 [pal]
18:54:00 [krisk]
joesteele: I wanted to add one more, I'm more conserned about persistance to not keep request access
18:54:20 [krisk]
..but I do support the dictionary proposal from adrianba
18:54:48 [paulc]
ack mark
18:55:16 [krisk]
ddorwin: The type may have more information if it's persisted or no (flags)
18:55:37 [krisk]
markw: will the server need do anything differenent?
18:55:46 [krisk]
ddorwin: I'm aware of two cases...
18:56:12 [krisk]
joesteele: if it's an open device (kiosk) the app may want to NOT persist stuff
18:56:27 [rubys]
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18:56:37 [krisk]
joesteele: it's really about providing a hint
18:57:03 [krisk]
ddorwin: the goal is to allow an app to make a specific request
18:57:17 [krisk]
ddorwin: multiple systems have this in the request today
18:57:26 [adrianba]
18:58:18 [krisk]
Markw: asking question...
18:59:11 [krisk]
markw: I don't disgree with the proposal, but I don't think in your case we want to use the persistance
18:59:36 [krisk]
markw: it might be temporary so you can actually persist this information
18:59:39 [krisk]
ddorwin: yes
19:00:22 [jernoble]
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19:00:45 [markw]
s/so you can actually persist this information/but you my still have a persistent session even though the license and keys were temporary/
19:01:23 [krisk]
paulc: Lets' see if we can talk about content editable during the IAB talk from 14:00 -> 15:00
19:05:09 [krisk]
paulc: We need to discuss when EME TF wants to meet - maybe next tuesday
19:05:26 [krisk]
dorwin: we need people to respond first to make session
19:05:46 [krisk]
paulc: maybe the EME folks can meet today and work on these issues working F2F
19:06:50 [krisk]
room agrees to take advantage of F2F to discuss more about these EME issues and make more progress
19:07:09 [krisk]
paulc: It would be great to take simple notes and send to the group
19:07:36 [krisk]
We are now breaking for lunch and will meet back at 13:00 (DOM4 stuff)
19:08:52 [gitbot]
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19:08:52 [gitbot]
[13validator] 15sideshowbarker pushed 2 new commits to 06master: 02
19:08:52 [gitbot]
13validator/06master 144bf9182 15Michael[tm] Smith: Simplify the default version string for the CLI.
19:08:52 [gitbot]
13validator/06master 14ce09a2b 15Michael[tm] Smith: For warnings, "Bad value"⇒ "Potentially bad value"
19:08:52 [gitbot]
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scribe: cyns
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20:02:25 [darobin]
20:03:11 [cyns]
TOPIC: DOM 4 test results and features at risk
20:03:44 [darobin]
Elements interface (whole section), query/queryAll
20:03:44 [darobin]
ArrayClass extended attribute
20:03:44 [darobin]
20:03:46 [darobin]
20:03:48 [darobin]
20:04:07 [cyns]
robin: we have a small set of features at risk.
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20:05:12 [cyns]
robin: I"m not sure that these aren't supported, but I'm sure that we don't have enough tests to prove it
20:05:21 [cyns]
robin: the first 2 are known failures
20:05:30 [cyns]
robin: the last 3 are new things where we don't have enough tests
20:05:38 [paulc]
Based on analysis of:
20:05:48 [paulc]
Test files with failures: 43; Subtests with fewer than 2 passes: 1719; Failure level: 1719/47132 (3.65%)
20:06:33 [cyns]
robin: I tried to err on teh side of including things in the at-risk list, so we are as safe as possible.
20:06:41 [darobin]
20:06:47 [cyns]
robin: if we test and they pass, we just keep them
20:07:02 [cyns]
robin: less than 2 list has not changed since yesterday.
20:07:16 [cyns]
robin: most are idl, many others are corner cases.
20:07:29 [paulc]
Majority of failures are IDL failures whch we need to filter out to explain.
20:07:58 [cyns]
robin: overall test results are pretty good
20:08:26 [cyns]
pc: keeping track of our 10 different documents that express status
20:08:37 [krisk]
MutationObservers is implemented in all browsers
20:08:38 [krisk]
20:09:03 [krisk]
Unlike the prepend and append
20:09:04 [cyns]
pc: robin was to prepare a candidate cr, with changes to red text. we didn't set a date for that
20:09:19 [krisk]
20:09:24 [cyns]
pc: we proposed a min length of 30 days for cr. we also identified 5 items at risk
20:10:03 [cyns]
pc: we also need to have a meeting with the director. when do we want to do that, and do we want to do them together?
20:10:27 [cyns]
robin: don't think we need to coordinate publications, but a single meeting would be ok.
20:10:38 [cyns]
pc: a phone call with Ralph may be enough
20:11:11 [cyns]
pc: I will also send an announcement to the chairs list
20:12:20 [cyns]
pc: will you do a page, like we have for canvas, that explains the bad results?
20:12:41 [cyns]
robin: yes
20:12:48 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to draft a page explaining the failures in the DOM test suite
20:12:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-244 - Draft a page explaining the failures in the dom test suite [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-16].
20:13:19 [cyns]
kris: the features at risk, mutation observers are in a different class than append and prepend
20:13:26 [cyns]
plh: class?
20:14:01 [cyns]
kris: I don't think any browsers support append/prepend. we have some tests for mutation observers, and mozilla has an implementation
20:14:26 [cyns]
kris: if you write a test for mutation observers, you may find it exists. not so for append/prepend
20:15:11 [cyns]
ACTION: krisk to submit mutation observer tests to webplatform
20:15:11 [trackbot]
Error finding 'krisk'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
20:15:58 [plh]
trackbot, list users
20:15:58 [trackbot]
Sorry, plh, I don't understand 'trackbot, list users'. Please refer to <> for help.
20:16:31 [cyns]
pc: when can you give us the draft document
20:16:35 [cyns]
robin: in a couple weeks
20:16:46 [plh]
ACTION: kris to submit mutation observer tests to webplatform
20:16:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-245 - Submit mutation observer tests to webplatform [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-16].
20:17:42 [jaymunro]
TOPIC: content editable
20:17:50 [adrianba]
20:18:20 [adrianba]
20:18:55 [jaymunro]
adrianb at the extnesible web summit break out session
20:18:59 [jaymunro]
editing in general
20:19:14 [jaymunro]
what'll improve operablity. high level point of view
20:19:36 [jaymunro]
content edited should be done in detail, so all browser could do it the same
20:19:56 [jaymunro]
other - not necessary to do the same results in all browsers
20:20:25 [jaymunro]
Doesn't think that kind of precision is necessary
20:21:04 [jaymunro]
because of bugs in browsers, differences, there isn't good interop here. Most editing libs try to override all the browser does for you.
20:21:14 [jaymunro]
editors do it themselves.
20:21:22 [JohnJansen]
20:21:24 [paulc]
rrsagent, generate minutes
20:21:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate paulc
20:21:30 [cyns]
20:21:37 [jaymunro]
some wanted rich html, some wanted different styles, etc...
20:21:49 [jaymunro]
discussed creating a new content editable.
20:21:55 [jaymunro]
very basic
20:22:32 [jaymunro]
last thing, had a good discussion about improving selection api. Robin mentioned overlap with webaps
20:22:43 [jaymunro]
Microsoft thinks it's key to the browser.
20:22:53 [jaymunro]
bi directional, consistent selection
20:23:02 [jaymunro]
like to focus on the selection API.
20:23:18 [jaymunro]
robin: the selection API is in web apps
20:23:25 [jaymunro]
the content editable cojuld go in HTML
20:23:45 [jaymunro]
ade: the editing command would work better on a range.
20:23:52 [krisk]
20:24:05 [jaymunro]
robin; contentent edita ble = basic, would this work better.
20:24:07 [jaymunro]
20:24:15 [jaymunro]
we didn't spend time drilling down
20:24:34 [jaymunro]
from my perseptive the more basic ediable, it disables the intgeraction peices.
20:25:00 [jaymunro]
20:25:27 [jaymunro]
discussion of whether pressing enter, what does it do.
20:25:49 [rubys]
s/contentent edita ble/content editable
20:25:55 [jaymunro]
what should hitting enter i- n a time element.
20:26:38 [jaymunro]
robin: web frameworks, feedback went 90%. composing characters can be wrong, customers just says give us events.
20:27:17 [jaymunro]
cyn: some people want full rich editor to do everything. people just want a tag for a rich editor
20:27:41 [jaymunro]
confusion on what basic means
20:28:07 [cyns]
ack me
20:28:26 [krisk]
ack krisk
20:28:37 [jaymunro]
pc: are we talking about having work split between working groups
20:28:56 [jaymunro]
robin: how much work is needed, how much work is needed for content editable
20:29:23 [jaymunro]
ade: feels to me that we should serialize the work. solving for selection api, will give us the frame work for how to change editing
20:29:37 [cyns]
my point was more about a simple rich text editor that covers the simple cases, like blog posts and comments, that web authors could just drop in with an element, and not have to code.
20:30:06 [cyns]
and that such and element would be wired up to accessibility api, and also create clean markup
20:30:12 [jaymunro]
pc: do we need a report back for webaps?
20:30:22 [jaymunro]
robin: no, we don't need extra coordination.
20:30:30 [jaymunro]
doing them one after the other is good
20:30:44 [jaymunro]
we don't need to do anything on the HTML front yet
20:30:56 [jaymunro]
cyn: is there any support in 5.1 and later ?
20:31:31 [jaymunro]
ted: a lot of the content editable, they want the controls fit in with the adds. there's a challenge to design the controls.
20:31:36 [jaymunro]
we did ok for video controls.
20:32:17 [jaymunro]
ade: almost everybody has diff requirements, like blog comments, what styles, use css, etc?
20:32:28 [jaymunro]
even for similar cases they have diff req..
20:32:59 [jaymunro]
ted: it worth considering that platform feature set, where content editing gets used heavily,
20:33:25 [jaymunro]
cyn: what Im thinkinmg about is not fancy, for the people who don't need to go searching for controls.
20:33:53 [jaymunro]
robin: it would be good to have a rich text area, like text area,
20:34:53 [jaymunro]
robin: even for trivial cases, like linking - a lot of small subtlities. need someone comes to ta ble with a good description
20:35:21 [jaymunro]
ade: we need a web component for this, if it satisfied it requirements, then we'll see if it goes into the platform.
20:35:56 [jaymunro]
ted: I'd extend my worry to the basic set, we don't want to make authors redo stuff.
20:36:55 [jaymunro]
mark: i could see dev doinig a markdown for a user.
20:37:12 [paulc]
rrsagent, generate minutes
20:37:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate paulc
20:38:02 [jaymunro]
robin: the advangtage over the min model over current model,-
20:38:20 [jaymunro]
some users using the json model to create markup
20:39:28 [plh]
Topic: HTML5 Features at risk
20:39:32 [plh]
scribe: plh
20:39:34 [darobin]
robin: the people use a nicer MVC approach that doesn't mix editing the view with editing the model
20:39:41 [plh]
Paul: appcache, we keep
20:40:00 [plh]
... dialog, details, sumary, not decided
20:40:13 [plh]
... color, keep
20:40:22 [plh]
... we're on datetime ow
20:40:27 [plh]
20:40:35 [darobin]
20:41:37 [plh]
Robin: I have a proposal
20:41:54 [plh]
... things to remove, things to keep at risk
20:42:43 [plh]
... DataCue, we don't have tests
20:42:55 [plh]
Glenn: it's not in webkit or blink
20:43:05 [plh]
... I'd prefer it to be at risk
20:43:47 [plh]
Mike: it's likely that DataCue will change
20:44:11 [plh]
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20:44:37 [plh]
Glenn: some features from texttrackcue attribute
20:45:49 [plh]
... were removed and, in response, datacue was added
20:46:14 [plh]
Robin: the feature can be removed easily
20:46:41 [plh]
Ted: i'll write a proposal to modify datacue
20:47:07 [plh]
Robin: details and summary should be killed
20:47:19 [plh]
Sam: Steve Faulkner that implementation don't match the spec anyway
20:47:28 [plh]
Robin: dialog?
20:47:41 [plh]
... it's in a semi disrepaired state
20:47:59 [plh]
Mike: they're still working on it
20:48:14 [plh]
Ted: lots of questions around it, like focus management
20:48:39 [plh]
Robin: we don't have implementation at all for it
20:49:19 [plh]
... ok dialog will be removed
20:49:34 [tantek]
also: dialog should go into an extension spec rather than 5.1
20:49:40 [plh]
Robin: :die, :invalid, :valid
20:49:48 [plh]
20:50:30 [plh]
Robin: firefox does valid and invalid
20:50:39 [plh]
... no one does :dir
20:50:57 [darobin]
20:51:56 [plh]
Robin: let's drop :dir, and keep :valid, :invalid for the moment
20:52:02 [plh]
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20:52:15 [krisk]
MDN has a nice example that seems to work fine in a few browsers
20:52:15 [krisk]
20:52:16 [hober]
e.g. the WebKit bug is marked RESO FIXED
20:52:20 [plh]
Tantek: I thought we had interop on valid and invalid btw
20:52:45 [plh]
Robin: iframe/seamless
20:52:48 [krisk]
I agree with tantek...
20:53:21 [plh]
Sean: it's tough to implement. I would move it out of 5.0
20:53:29 [plh]
... it needs more work and use cases
20:53:36 [adrianba]
here is our valid/invalid test drive; - click on New PseudoClasses tab
20:53:42 [plh]
... I don't see how we can use this effectively
20:53:54 [plh]
Robin: Chrome removed it
20:53:58 [tantek]
Gecko bug for iframe seamless:
20:54:31 [plh]
Ted: safari supports it
20:54:38 [JohnJansen]
no one minuted paul?
20:55:01 [plh]
Mike: the other feedback is that it doesn't match the needs fro the devs
20:55:13 [plh]
Tantek: candidate for extension spec
20:55:16 [plh]
Sean: agree
20:55:43 [plh]
Robin: I'm ok for extension spec, but someone needs to pick it up
20:56:22 [plh]
iframe/seamless is out
20:56:43 [hober]
re: :invalid and :valid pseudoclasses, they seem to work fine for me in Safari 7:
20:56:48 [plh]
Robin: isContentHandlerRegistered/isProtocolHandlerRegistered aren't implemented
20:57:16 [plh]
... ok removed
20:57:27 [plh]
Robin: input times+
20:57:38 [plh]
Tantek: date ok?
20:57:42 [plh]
Robin: yes
20:58:12 [adrianba]
hober, that works in IE11 too
20:58:28 [plh]
Tantek: don't understand why datetime doesn't have interop
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20:59:13 [plh]
Robin: we could put it at risk and keep time only
21:00:08 [tantek]
plh no I said don't understand why *time* doesn't have interop
21:00:20 [plh]
21:01:22 [plh]
[short interrupt]
21:01:31 [tantek]
tantek: it's also useful to keep input type=time as that then provides developers with a building block, along with input type=date, to build their own composite datetime UIs
21:02:46 [jaymunro]
21:03:08 [jaymunro]
21:03:30 [wuwei]
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21:03:47 [jaymunro]
presenting: chris mejia IAB, sean snider yahoo, prabhakar goyal, microsoft.
21:03:57 [paulc]
21:04:13 [jaymunro]
chrisM: here with sean and prabhaker.
21:04:29 [jaymunro]
brief intro what IAB isd
21:04:34 [jaymunro]
21:05:01 [jaymunro]
agenda: intro, use case, safeframe over view, html5 sandbox/csp, next steps
21:05:33 [jaymunro]
Interactive Advertising bureau
21:05:47 [jaymunro]
membership of online media companies
21:06:02 [jaymunro]
only ad group just digital
21:06:07 [jaymunro]
over 600 members
21:06:24 [jaymunro]
86% of ads in us are on IAB membersites
21:06:59 [jaymunro]
our interests - we develop digital ad standards
21:07:22 [jaymunro]
IAB recently part of W3C
21:07:39 [jaymunro]
ad content served from 3rd parties in real time
21:07:48 [jaymunro]
concerned with site and user security
21:07:51 [dsinger]
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most web content is paid ads, they belive in the free web (ad paid)
21:08:40 [jaymunro]
Prab: use case real time content serving
21:08:45 [jaymunro]
showing a diagram,
21:09:09 [jaymunro]
common case : goes to ad serverf
21:09:22 [jaymunro]
21:10:09 [jaymunro]
browser calls exchange, calls ad server, if no ad, returns. if ad served, advertiser are sent to be bid on, highest bidder wins
21:10:31 [jaymunro]
the publisher doesn't know what ad content is
21:10:54 [jaymunro]
you can't use a black or white list to control content.
21:11:02 [jaymunro]
publisher areas of concern:
21:11:20 [jaymunro]
isolation, separation between publsher and 3rd party
21:11:49 [jaymunro]
ad tag is usually a script. always done that way, sometimes an iframe
21:12:07 [jaymunro]
(intro into SafeFrame)
21:12:16 [jaymunro]
no way to monitor scripts in real time.
21:12:41 [jaymunro]
looking to control data leakage, content, cookies, data
21:12:48 [jaymunro]
prevent js and css collision
21:13:09 [jaymunro]
but allow rich interactions with out providing full access (covered by safeframe + iframe
21:13:25 [jaymunro]
controls auto play, restricts certain media types
21:13:38 [jaymunro]
allows rich interaction without full access.
21:13:59 [jaymunro]
Ability to control other attack surface areas - prefent downloads
21:14:39 [jaymunro]
sean: use case - Safe frame - a cross domain iframe
21:15:12 [jaymunro]
where we stick the content, but wrap it with a javascript library, each frame defines a lib the content can talk to
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21:15:37 [jaymunro]
host decides whether actions are takein when iframe request info.
21:15:55 [jaymunro]
agnostic domain - hosts a base level doc.
21:16:37 [jaymunro]
some data sharing - events from browser , we send msgs to iframe -
21:17:17 [jaymunro]
SafeFrame APIs - agnostic origin, every safe fram e is in the same origin, talk to each other, but not top level
21:17:38 [jaymunro]
display ads are snippets of html, freeform js and html.
21:17:47 [jaymunro]
alwyas delivered with script or iframe.
21:18:00 [jaymunro]
21:18:32 [jaymunro]
safeframe will let them show a display ad, it just works, doesn't need changes.
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21:19:14 [jaymunro]
host creates an safeframe iframe, handles interaction between host and server.
21:19:36 [jaymunro]
HTML5 sandbox - similar to safeframe.
21:20:07 [jaymunro]
sanbox attributes are too coarse grain, additional areas of control that publishers want
21:20:38 [jaymunro]
IAB wants enhancements to allow finer controls, ie ability to restrict
21:21:38 [jaymunro]
safe frame sets up xdomain plus csp- can't whitelist individual content, but can restict certain plug ins, or downloads (eg)
21:22:40 [jaymunro]
showed a list comparing safeframe, sandbox, and csp
21:24:00 [jaymunro]
things like allow/block plugins, plugin types, media types, require user interactions.
21:24:13 [jaymunro]
one thing to controls that's desiared is autoplay.
21:24:26 [jaymunro]
21:24:52 [jaymunro]
problem with nested scripts/iframes
21:25:05 [jaymunro]
very challenging
21:25:22 [jaymunro]
chris; trying to protect user and advertiser.
21:26:03 [jaymunro]
as publisher, they're always under attack by nefarious
21:26:12 [jaymunro]
21:26:30 [jaymunro]
sean: we're trying to give more control
21:26:44 [jaymunro]
showing more features
21:27:17 [jaymunro]
that's our presentation in a nutshell - questions
21:27:34 [jaymunro]
greg: to what extent does tech rely on extensions addons.
21:28:14 [jaymunro]
sean: pure HTML, no plugins. one hack. undlying doc is cachable so you don't have a separate request for every piece of content
21:28:35 [jaymunro]
greg: the original site/webpage right,
21:29:15 [jaymunro]
sean: Yes. they way we set up the spec, there are rules where you can't embed this in other iframe or host in ""
21:30:14 [jaymunro]
chris: google is releasing safeframe in one area end of summer (DFP)
21:30:29 [jaymunro]
sean: because now you have a clear box, you have more options.
21:30:59 [jaymunro]
you couldn't do that before.
21:31:05 [jaymunro]
you have much more control.
21:31:46 [jaymunro]
chris: thank you for your time. we've talked with philip and others. Trying to find positive things to work on, and bridge the groups.
21:31:59 [jaymunro]
we should be not doing everything on our own.
21:32:35 [jaymunro]
we'd like to get your input.
21:32:37 [adrianba]
21:32:43 [jaymunro]
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21:33:05 [jaymunro]
robin: uses cases make sense. most of what you want are extension to sandbox?
21:33:35 [jaymunro]
sean: sandbox is too course, we need more fine grain.
21:34:17 [jaymunro]
csp - content security policy
21:34:29 [jaymunro]
csp is in w3 on rec track
21:35:05 [jaymunro]
white listing at a feature level might work.
21:35:17 [jaymunro]
but not at content level
21:36:14 [jaymunro]
robin: no rule of thumb of where this concept will live, sandbox or csp.
21:36:26 [jaymunro]
sandbox easier to implement for users.
21:36:31 [jaymunro]
maybe merge both
21:36:42 [jaymunro]
you don't need to block on where to solve thse things.
21:37:03 [jaymunro]
it's not a big deal to move features between the two (csp/sandbox)
21:37:21 [jaymunro]
at some point we'll figure the best way.
21:37:39 [plh]
ack adrianba
21:38:23 [jaymunro]
ade: there definitly needs to be coordination with web app security. the best way to get it goiong is to write a spec
21:38:53 [jaymunro]
pc: do you guys understand what an extension spec. just need to write it and post it to get discussion on the html-wg
21:39:11 [jaymunro]
robin: if it needs to move, we can do it later.
21:39:28 [jaymunro]
pc: the chairs and the team are very willing to work with you.
21:39:43 [jaymunro]
the web consortium encourages modularity
21:40:03 [jaymunro]
if it grows, we can give it a bugzilla component.
21:40:30 [jaymunro]
sean: if you have an origin in a sandbox, how does iframe know it's been sandboxed.
21:40:38 [jaymunro]
robin: don't believe it does.
21:41:01 [jaymunro]
ade: expectation is that these things are coordinated.
21:41:45 [jaymunro]
sean: a simpler case is a service provider spawns an iframe, - I don't know if they coordinate for a sandbox.
21:43:49 [jaymunro]
chris: you may have read about this recently, its estimated that ad insustry is being defrauded in 1-6 billion dollars. follow the money back to sophisticated crime blocks.
21:44:08 [jaymunro]
mostly eastern block with engineers that can't get legit work.
21:45:00 [jaymunro]
told story about callcenter of malicious ad center
21:45:38 [jaymunro]
bad guys using ads to launder money. biggest thing is using bots. best way to deliver a bot is thorugh ads.
21:45:50 [jaymunro]
21:46:54 [jaymunro]
talked about bogus ads
21:47:17 [jaymunro]
sean: is it possible to know if it's in a browser and not a programmable user agent.
21:47:46 [jaymunro]
someone loads pages and fake clicks through.
21:48:03 [jaymunro]
robin: the only way is to put DRM on the browser engines.
21:48:18 [jaymunro]
Michel: is that a bad thing robin?
21:48:28 [plh]
21:48:56 [jaymunro]
robin: the browser needs to be on a secure elementl.
21:49:03 [jaymunro]
21:50:05 [jaymunro]
sean: there are a lot of good uses for scripting access, but it also is used for bad things.
21:50:15 [wwu]
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21:50:20 [jaymunro]
prak: it's a problem that is getting bigger.
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21:50:37 [jaymunro]
robin: first thing is to ask webapps if it's in their scope.
21:50:46 [jaymunro]
then I'd go to the websecrity IG,
21:51:02 [jaymunro]
no promise for solution.
21:51:32 [jaymunro]
chris: is this a security issue or a fraud issue. usually to do the fraud, there's a securty issue.
21:51:47 [jaymunro]
21:52:41 [jaymunro]
problem is that there's a symbiotic relationships in the industry, there's consequences .
21:52:51 [jaymunro]
greed rules, companies looking the other way.
21:53:49 [jaymunro]
sean: loading javascript into webpages can be really evil. but some are making money.
21:54:35 [jaymunro]
chris: these issues are being discussed at all levels, law inforcement, etc... if there are technical ways to work on this it would be good.
21:55:27 [jaymunro]
pc: interviews with michael lewis, about trapdoor in trading markets where the margin costs went down.
21:55:58 [jaymunro]
the fact that the stockmarkets sell their trading stream, they can take advantage.
21:57:21 [jaymunro]
chris: when we first talked about this, one of the sec firms told us where they follwed money to banks. they're all connected to ad networks
21:57:50 [jaymunro]
pc: although michael lewis makes money on the book, the iax exchange has passed on 800 tips to the FBI
21:58:02 [jaymunro]
the general point, the more public it is, the better it could be.
21:59:39 [jaymunro]
rrsagent,generate minutes
21:59:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jaymunro
22:07:15 [rubys]
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22:14:26 [plh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
22:14:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate plh
22:17:36 [plh]
Topici: back to HTML5 features at risk
22:18:22 [plh]
Topic: back to HTML5 features at risk
22:18:26 [plh]
scribe: plh
22:18:49 [plh]
Robin: reportValidaty fails everywhere
22:18:58 [plh]
... ok removed
22:19:06 [krisk]
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22:19:11 [plh]
... <style scoped
22:19:15 [plh]
... anyone supports it?
22:19:40 [plh]
Ted: depends on work in the css wg. not ready.
22:19:46 [plh]
Robin: ok removed
22:19:54 [plh]
... XMLDocument.load
22:19:57 [plh]
... firefox removed it
22:20:53 [plh]
.... ok removed
22:21:09 [plh]
plh: editors might want to remove from HTML 5.1
22:21:19 [plh]
... (for XMLDocument.load)
22:21:26 [plh]
Robin: other bucket
22:21:40 [plh]
... New Ruby Model
22:21:49 [plh]
.... webkit started work on it
22:22:03 [plh]
... lots of failures on HTMLMediaElement.addTextTrack
22:22:07 [plh]
... mostly failing at the moment
22:22:50 [plh]
Paul: time should be input/time in the wiki
22:23:06 [plh]
... also we have a couple of items missing:
22:23:21 [plh]
... output and outline algorithm
22:23:53 [plh]
Robin: I thought we discussed. sorry. output element seems to interop
22:23:58 [plh]
... so no reason to remove
22:24:25 [plh]
.., outline algo is supported by outside tools, so no good reason to drop it
22:24:46 [plh]
[Paul goes through the full list to double check]
22:25:29 [rubys]
22:25:30 [rubys]
22:25:57 [plh]
ack rubys
22:26:16 [plh]
Sam: Steve Faulkner thinks outline should be removed...
22:26:22 [plh]
... can we close the loop with him?
22:26:27 [plh]
Ted & Mike: sure
22:27:06 [plh]
Paul: we should update the bug with the list btw, to make sure people see this
22:28:20 [plh]
[side discussion to make sure the wiki gets updated]
22:29:21 [plh]
Paul: how much to remove before the next heartbeat and how much for the LC?
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22:30:24 [plh]
Robin: I'll start removing thigs sooner rather than later. we can bring this back easily if needed
22:30:39 [plh]
... so the heartbeat will have the stuff removed
22:32:02 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to produce a heartbeat with feature removals and at risk items taken into account
22:32:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-246 - Produce a heartbeat with feature removals and at risk items taken into account [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-16].
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22:32:27 [plh]
Paul: where do we stand on the test results?
22:32:55 [plh]
Robin: still the same
22:33:05 [darobin]
22:33:10 [plh]
... testing coverage ...
22:34:07 [plh]
Robin: we might need to revisit the cr page
22:34:50 [plh]
Paul: if we don't test them, only two ways to move forward: passive permissive, drop the feature, or tell the director to hold his nose
22:35:01 [plh]
Robin: section 5 is important
22:36:02 [MarkS]
22:36:44 [plh]
Robin: I'm worried about section 5
22:37:14 [plh]
... it's quite possible that some of those subsections are not testable.
22:37:38 [plh]
ACTION: Robin to go through section 5 to check which section is testable or not
22:37:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-247 - Go through section 5 to check which section is testable or not [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-16].
22:38:26 [plh]
Kris: it will be difficult to test section 5
22:39:06 [plh]
ACTION: Kris to triage section 5 into hard and easy tests
22:39:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-248 - Triage section 5 into hard and easy tests [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-16].
22:39:09 [dsinger_]
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22:39:12 [plh]
close action-247
22:39:12 [trackbot]
Closed action-247.
22:40:01 [plh]
Kris: I'll come back with the list in 2 weeks
22:41:53 [krisk]
* thanks johnjan
22:42:37 [JohnJansen]
plh, did you just ask me something on the phone? my reception is not great...
22:43:10 [plh]
Plh: are we missing anything in our list of features at risk?
22:44:07 [plh]
[none heard]
22:45:05 [plh]
Paul: would be useful to have a plan for a plan in 10 days
22:46:48 [plh]
22:47:10 [plh]
Paul: are we done for today?
22:47:16 [plh]
... looks like it
22:48:02 [plh]
... we'll be back in Santa Clara in November again
22:48:19 [plh]
... we'll put the new work mode in actio right away
22:48:27 [plh]
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23:19:21 [plh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
23:19:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate plh
23:19:29 [darobin]
MarkS: the test is in html/semantics/embedded-content/media-elements/interfaces/TextTrack/oncuechange.html
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