IRC log of dap on 2014-03-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:32:01 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-dap-irc
13:32:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:32:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
13:32:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
13:32:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
13:32:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
13:32:06 [trackbot]
Date: 27 March 2014
13:32:29 [fjh]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/0021.html
13:32:43 [fjh]
fjh has changed the topic to: dap 3279 ; agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/0021.html
13:33:05 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
13:33:17 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
13:33:29 [fjh]
Topic: Welcome, agenda review, announcements
13:58:40 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:58:41 [fjh]
zakim, ipcaller is me
13:58:41 [Zakim]
sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcaller'
13:58:47 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:58:52 [fjh]
zakim, ipcaller is me
13:58:52 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
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14:01:07 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:01:08 [Zakim]
+??P10
14:01:12 [dom]
Zakim, ??P10 is me
14:01:12 [Zakim]
+dom; got it
14:01:49 [Zakim]
+??P11
14:02:01 [mats]
Zakim, ??P11 is mats
14:02:01 [Zakim]
+mats; got it
14:02:06 [mats]
Present+ Mats_Wichmann
14:02:37 [gmandyam]
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+[IPcaller]
14:02:56 [richt]
Present+ Rich_Tibbett
14:03:05 [anssik]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:03:21 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:03:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, dom, mats, richt
14:03:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see gmandyam, richt, anssik, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, slightlyoff_, Josh_Soref, tobie__, mounir, trackbot
14:03:43 [Zakim]
+Cathy
14:03:48 [cathy]
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14:03:52 [dom]
ScribeNick: dom
14:04:09 [dom]
Zakim, who's on the call?
14:04:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, dom, mats, richt, Cathy
14:04:16 [fjh]
Topic: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection, announcements
14:04:30 [fjh]
Vibration API related to WebApps gamepad API, discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/0016.html
14:04:33 [Zakim]
+gmandyam
14:04:58 [dom]
Frederick: we might want to think about that at some point, but it's probably OK to leave the current API as is
14:05:11 [dom]
... I'll just notify them when we go to CR
14:05:25 [anssik]
that sounds good to me
14:05:28 [dom]
Topic: Minutes approval
14:05:37 [fjh]
Approve minutes from 20 March 2014
14:05:37 [fjh]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/att-0014/minutes-2014-03-20.html
14:05:46 [dom]
RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/att-0014/minutes-2014-03-20.html are approved as minutes of March 20 call
14:05:59 [dom]
Topic: Netinfo API
14:06:12 [dom]
Frederick: we've agreed to shelve it; I'm having trouble reaching Mounir
14:06:19 [dom]
... I'm thinking to just go ahead and do it myself
14:07:48 [dom]
Dom: sounds good to me
14:07:57 [cathy]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
14:07:59 [dom]
Topic: Testing update
14:08:13 [dom]
Topic: Cordova priorities
14:08:15 [fjh]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Mar/0022.html
14:08:31 [dom]
Frederick: we discuss the usefulness of priotirizing work from a Cordova perspective
14:08:36 [fjh]
In CR, two implementations (Blink/webkit), testing progressing (despite pull request not accepted yet), relatively straightforward spec
14:08:38 [dom]
... we have tests, implementations
14:08:49 [dom]
... for HTML MEdia Capture
14:09:00 [dom]
... next put Battery, then Light
14:09:15 [dom]
q+ on light vs vibration
14:09:23 [fjh]
ack dom
14:09:23 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to comment on light vs vibration
14:09:49 [fjh]
dom: clarify, prioritization of alignment and contributing to tests
14:10:15 [fjh]
dom: ambient light has less traction than vibration which is implemented in firefox and chrome
14:10:54 [anssik]
ambient light implementation is happening in Chromium/Blink
14:10:55 [dom]
Frederick: I'm conflating alignment and testing
14:12:41 [fjh]
dom: do we know if cordova will contribute to testing
14:12:54 [anssik]
our QA ppl are working on completing Vibration, Battery, HTML Media Capture test suites
14:14:32 [fjh]
dom: cordova is not using webIDL
14:15:28 [dom]
Frederick: [summarizing] there is quite a bit of work for them to align with our specs
14:17:30 [dom]
... their implementations is not matching our specs at this time, but getting that alignment is separate from our Rec-track goals
14:18:16 [dom]
dom: yeah, reducing fragmentation in the HTML5-apps ecosystem (incl hybrid) is a good goal, but separate from proving implementation at the CR level
14:18:20 [fjh]
fjh: attempting to summarize what dom said - one goal is to achieve adoption and uniform APIs which hasn't happened yet and can be quite a bit of work with code, docs etc. Another goal is to move to REC which requires W3C Process but different activity, possibly differen players
14:18:52 [fjh]
fjh: achieving Cordova compatibilty is a useful direction but may not contribute directly to getting to rec in the short term
14:19:58 [dom]
Topic: HTML Media Capture testing
14:20:19 [dom]
Frederick: I've been looking at the pull requests
14:20:43 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/mid/F5C5CDD5-6255-4027-8B9A-B222F1A5C7DC@nokia.com Frederick on HTML Media Capture testing
14:21:13 [dom]
... still waiting for review
14:21:32 [dom]
... a comment thread in github about testability for privacy and security considerations which has normative statements
14:21:38 [dom]
... questioning whether that's appropriate
14:21:47 [dom]
... Cathy mentioned geolocation as an example
14:21:51 [dom]
q+ to comment on geo as example
14:22:03 [dom]
... which has normative requirements in privacy / security
14:22:18 [dom]
... and they have related tests as well
14:22:44 [dom]
... e.g. checking for permission denied
14:23:18 [dom]
... my conclusion is that we don't have to gut the security and privacy considerations
14:23:23 [dom]
... and that we should go ahead with what we have
14:23:42 [dom]
q+ to comment on normative considerations, testing of shoulds
14:24:21 [fjh]
ack dom
14:24:21 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to comment on geo as example and to comment on normative considerations, testing of shoulds
14:25:07 [fjh]
dom: not sure geolocation is the best model, despite my involvement
14:25:31 [anssik]
our QA person who wrote the test suite is waiting for +1s from reviewers or feedback on how to improve the suite if there are issues -- please let him know if there's something he can help with still
14:25:45 [fjh]
dom: need to consider two items: security,privacy be normative and whether to create test cases for should cases
14:25:56 [fjh]
q+
14:26:16 [fjh]
dom: want to avoid security privacy considerations related to UI implementation
14:27:24 [fjh]
dom: would personally prefer non-normative, if we keep them normative then should ask about testing, prefer not to test them due to UI considerations, requiring manual testing
14:27:58 [fjh]
dom: processing should requirements is an issue
14:28:06 [fjh]
ack fjh
14:28:27 [dom]
q+ re meaningful privacy
14:28:48 [dom]
Frederick: I'm concerned about taking privacy seriously without having normative text on it
14:29:18 [dom]
... if privacy matters, we need to make sure it is actually taken into account in implementations
14:29:36 [dom]
... agree that testing privacy doesn't fit as cleanly
14:33:29 [fjh]
dom: normative requirements are for interoperability hence not approriate for privacy/security, and implementers will do what they want in this space
14:33:47 [fjh]
dom: important to document but not as normative requirements, can be informative
14:34:37 [fjh]
dom: key is to be clear on risks and way to mitigate them, cannot force implementation, misguided
14:35:04 [fjh]
dom: geolocation requires URL to be displayed in prompts and that requirement is not followed by any implementations, for good reasons
14:35:39 [fjh]
dom: be careful not to say it is not meaningful if not normative, e.g. if browser ignores threats and then exploited
14:35:48 [fjh]
fjh: you are making competitive implementation argument
14:36:44 [Zakim]
+??P20
14:36:48 [anssik]
zakim, ??P20 is me
14:36:48 [Zakim]
+anssik; got it
14:38:24 [dom]
ACTION: dom to react on testing html media capture privacy & security considerations
14:38:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-686 - React on testing html media capture privacy & security considerations [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2014-04-03].
14:39:00 [dom]
Topic: Network Service Discovery
14:39:15 [dom]
Frederick: would like to do 3 things:
14:39:26 [dom]
... * go through the issues and see whether and how to resolve them
14:39:53 [dom]
... * process around editing
14:39:59 [dom]
... * how to move forward in general
14:40:17 [dom]
... Rich, could you maybe start by describing where you think we are?
14:40:25 [dom]
... and then I could get into our editing process
14:41:03 [dom]
Rich: sounds good; let's tackle high priority items first
14:41:17 [dom]
Frederick: in general, does this time work for you on regular basis, rich?
14:41:19 [dom]
Rich: yes:
14:41:30 [dom]
Frederick: so, summary of current status and news?
14:41:43 [dom]
Rich: in terms of the spec, the last major change was adding CORS a while ago
14:42:02 [dom]
... I've made some comments on the technical discussions; they can be picked up again
14:42:12 [dom]
... The main update is around intents to implement
14:42:32 [dom]
... there was one intent in Chromium/Blink which started some of the changes we brought to the spec
14:42:43 [dom]
... not clear where we stand in terms of getting implementors buy in
14:43:05 [dom]
... Getting feedback from implementors is key in making progress, more than finetuning what we already have
14:43:47 [dom]
Frederick: my viewpoint on how the WG works: the way I see it is that WG makes decisions, and the editor brings them in in the spec
14:44:10 [dom]
... getting WG agreement before getting stuff in the spec is important
14:44:24 [Zakim]
-richt
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+[IPcaller]
14:45:15 [richt]
zakim, IPcaller is me
14:45:15 [Zakim]
+richt; got it
14:45:28 [dom]
... the decision lies within the WG consensus
14:45:48 [dom]
... contributions can be made as issues, or specific text proposal, which in some cases can find their way directly in the spec
14:46:00 [dom]
... of course, we need some implementors buy-in
14:46:22 [dom]
... but I don't think there is a harm to think things through even if we don't have implementors buy-in yet
14:46:55 [dom]
... I don't think implementors should decide everything; not sure how that would work with our own timelines and goals
14:47:21 [dom]
... I'm not sure how to move forward if we don't have implementors buy-in
14:47:25 [dom]
q+
14:47:49 [fjh]
ack dom
14:47:49 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to discuss meaningful privacy and to
14:48:26 [Zakim]
-richt
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14:49:02 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:50:09 [dom]
Frederick: we have people interested in this spec from the TV space
14:50:25 [dom]
... but they got pushed back from Adam?, and went into using something else
14:50:50 [dom]
Rich: Yeah, I've seen this
14:50:59 [dom]
... I would have preferred these discussions to happen in W3C
14:51:25 [dom]
... there are alternatives that are emerging which may be put NSD into a difficult position
14:51:34 [dom]
... e.g. Chrome is now looking at the Presentation API
14:51:46 [dom]
... In terms of next steps, we need to get feedback / buy-in from implementors
14:51:47 [dom]
q+
14:52:03 [dom]
Frederick: I looked at the Presentation API — it seemed complementary rather than in competition
14:52:25 [dom]
Rich: it's not a replacement API, but it does solve some use cases that NSD also solve
14:52:31 [dom]
... e.g. what chromecast enables
14:52:41 [jcdufourd]
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14:52:46 [anssik]
the group where the Presentation API is being worked on: http://www.w3.org/community/webscreens/
14:52:48 [dom]
... display sharing is only a subset, but maybe that's the most useful subset
14:52:57 [anssik]
we have Google, Mozilla, and Apple in the group
14:53:13 [dom]
Frederick: another worm will be how testable the spec would be given how complex it is
14:53:40 [dom]
q+ to propose that next steps is to get people that want NSD to work with us on trying to get implementors' attention
14:53:54 [dom]
Rich: at the network level, I have some ideas
14:54:02 [dom]
... the UI stuff is more complicated for automated testing
14:54:20 [dom]
... when it comes to service messaging, that's beyond what we would need to check
14:54:28 [dom]
... but no testing plan since no implementation plan
14:54:47 [dom]
Frederick: so you would do this by sniffing the network
14:55:00 [dom]
Rich: possibly; but that only becomes a problem once we have implementation plans
14:55:14 [dom]
... You also mentioned that the spec has lots of moving parts, and that's true
14:55:28 [dom]
... the API started from a very ambitious approach
14:55:46 [dom]
... maybe we can simply it, e.g. getting inspiration from the sockets idea
14:56:49 [dom]
... the current stage is a bit frustrating, but I don't think we can move forward without implementations
14:57:13 [dom]
ack dom
14:57:14 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to propose that next steps is to get people that want NSD to work with us on trying to get implementors' attention
14:57:39 [fjh]
dom: seems right to wait for implementers feedback and interest
14:57:50 [fjh]
dom: need to get right level of abstraction
14:58:26 [fjh]
dom: next step should be to get more feedback from implementers, could ask Web & TV interest group for help
14:58:56 [fjh]
dom: could specifically contact implementers we know to get feedback, if fundamental concerns with overall approach
14:59:21 [jcdufourd]
I already asked multiple times for web&tv ig help, to no avail
14:59:51 [fjh]
dom: yes
15:01:02 [fjh]
action: fjh to make request to Web and TV interest group re network service discovery
15:01:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-687 - Make request to web and tv interest group re network service discovery [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2014-04-03].
15:01:16 [fjh]
action: fjh to contact implementers re network service discovery directly
15:01:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-688 - Contact implementers re network service discovery directly [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2014-04-03].
15:02:21 [dom]
Frederick: so, should we look at issues in the meantime of getting implementors feedback?
15:02:35 [dom]
Rich: I think it is difficult to focus on issues without implementors interest
15:02:44 [jcdufourd]
we are looking into implementing NSD as a Chrome extension
15:02:53 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, dom, mats, Cathy, gmandyam, anssik, [IPcaller]
15:02:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jcdufourd, richt_, cathy, gmandyam, anssik, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, slightlyoff_, Josh_Soref, tobie__, mounir, trackbot
15:02:59 [dom]
... I agree with dom we should be proactive on contacting implementors
15:03:29 [dom]
... I've also been thinking about Web pages as advertising themselves on the network, which was supposed to be the 2nd stage after discovery
15:03:37 [dom]
... but it could be a good thing to explore
15:03:47 [dom]
... might also raise interest on discovery
15:03:59 [dom]
Frederick: could you share more about that?
15:04:07 [dom]
Rich: I've been doing some brainstorming around that
15:04:32 [dom]
... you can create channels among some-origin pages
15:04:46 [dom]
... but there isn't a generic cross-origin channel
15:05:03 [dom]
... enabling this would open very interesting use cases
15:05:26 [dom]
... we could look at this either from an NSD perspective (relying on UPNP etc)
15:05:36 [dom]
... or using a different sockets approach
15:05:44 [dom]
... I have some early design thoughts
15:06:19 [dom]
Frederick: we would want to be careful in light of NSD
15:06:28 [dom]
... I would certainly support the simple approach
15:06:39 [dom]
Rich: as a reminder, Opera originally implemented NSD
15:06:51 [dom]
... but we switched browser engine in the meantime
15:07:22 [dom]
Frederick: can we coordinate on contacts with implementors?
15:07:31 [dom]
Rich: probably best if it comes from you as chair
15:07:58 [dom]
Frederick: OK, based on this, I think we'll stay off issues for now; Rich, might want to look at some of the minor editorial ones
15:08:25 [Zakim]
-gmandyam
15:08:37 [dom]
Topic: Action items review
15:08:49 [fjh]
ACTION-684?
15:08:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-684 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to Help close pull request #376 on batter, duplicate so does not need to be incorporate -- due 2014-03-27 -- OPEN
15:08:49 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/684
15:10:00 [fjh]
ACTION-682?
15:10:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-682 -- Frederick Hirsch to Follow up on how to approve pull requests and to identify correct reviewers, remove inappropriate critics etc -- due 2014-03-06 -- OPEN
15:10:00 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/682
15:12:07 [Zakim]
-Cathy
15:12:09 [Zakim]
-dom
15:12:09 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:12:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, mats, anssik, richt_
15:12:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jcdufourd, richt_, cathy, gmandyam, anssik, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, slightlyoff_, Josh_Soref, tobie__, mounir, trackbot
15:12:12 [Zakim]
-anssik
15:12:12 [Zakim]
-richt_
15:12:13 [Zakim]
-mats
15:12:16 [dom]
ACTION-684: see https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/376#issuecomment-38816061
15:12:16 [trackbot]
Notes added to ACTION-684 Help close pull request #376 on batter, duplicate so does not need to be incorporate.
15:12:21 [dom]
trackbot, close ACTION-684
15:12:21 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-684.
15:12:28 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:12:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:12:53 [fjh]
action-684?
15:12:53 [trackbot]
action-684 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to Help close pull request #376 on batter, duplicate so does not need to be incorporate -- due 2014-03-27 -- CLOSED
15:12:53 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/684
15:13:13 [fjh]
ACTION-684?
15:13:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-684 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to Help close pull request #376 on battery, duplicate so does not need to be incorporate -- due 2014-03-27 -- CLOSED
15:13:13 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/684
15:13:36 [fjh]
Present- Anssi_Kostiainen
15:13:46 [fjh]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen(IRC)
15:14:36 [fjh]
Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
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richt has joined #dap
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s/myself/myself (update, Mounir replied on chat with update)/
15:15:51 [fjh]
s/Topic: Testing Update//
15:16:03 [fjh]
s/MEdia/Media/
15:16:56 [fjh]
s/this time/this teleconference time/
15:17:37 [fjh]
Topic: Other Business
15:18:27 [fjh]
fjh: next meeting 10 april, see schedule for upcoming dates, http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/minutes.html#upcoming-teleconferences
15:18:31 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
15:18:35 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:18:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:19:26 [Zakim]
-fjh
15:19:26 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:19:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were fjh, dom, mats, richt, Cathy, gmandyam, anssik, richt_
15:21:11 [fjh]
Present+ Giri_Mandyam(IRC)
15:21:32 [fjh]
Present+ JeanClaude_Dufourd(IRC)
15:21:37 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:21:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-dap-minutes.html fjh
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anssik: isn't battery supported in FxOS?
16:31:01 [marcosc_]
yeah, we support it
16:31:27 [marcosc_]
and in Gecko too, it seems
16:31:32 [marcosc_]
At least it's in nightly
17:04:15 [anssik]
marcosc_: Battery has been in Firefox since v16 unprefixed https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator.battery
17:05:45 [marcosc_]
anssik: I got confused by fjh email
17:05:52 [marcosc_]
that mentioned it
17:31:23 [fjh]
maybe we need to update the implementation wiki, I got confused by that
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