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14:55:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/26-webmob-irc
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14:58:39 <dka> yo
14:59:18 <dom> trackbot, prepare meeting
14:59:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 306
14:59:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WEBMOB
14:59:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see UW_WEBMOB()11:00AM already started
14:59:24 <trackbot> Meeting: Web and Mobile Interest Group Teleconference
14:59:24 <trackbot> Date: 26 March 2014
14:59:41 <Zakim> +??P9
15:00:00 <Zakim> +McCarron
15:00:07 <ernesto> Zakim: ??P9 is me
15:00:32 <frodek> frodek has joined #webmob
15:00:51 <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
15:01:08 <Zakim> + +1.416.848.aabb
15:01:17 <ernesto> zakim mute me
15:01:28 <Zakim> + +44.207.356.aacc
15:01:36 <dom> Zakim, code?
15:01:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 932662 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dom
15:01:49 <Zakim> + +1.405.364.aadd
15:01:52 <Zakim> +??P17
15:01:58 <dom> Zakim, ??P17 is me
15:01:58 <Zakim> +dom; got it
15:02:17 <ernesto> Zakim, ??P9 is me
15:02:17 <Zakim> +ernesto; got it
15:02:24 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see dka, schuki, +1.650.946.aaaa, ernesto, McCarron, Art_Barstow, +1.416.848.aabb, +44.207.356.aacc, +1.405.364.aadd, dom
15:02:30 <ernesto> zakim, mute me
15:02:30 <Zakim> ernesto should now be muted
15:02:40 <Bin_Hu> zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:40 <Zakim> +Bin_Hu; got it
15:03:15 <marcosc> Scribe: Marcos
15:03:16 <Zakim> + +47.66.71.aaee
15:03:22 <marcosc> Scribenick: marcosc
15:03:30 <Istvan> Istvan has joined #webmob
15:03:49 <schuki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Mar/0019.html
15:03:50 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #webmob
15:04:08 <marcosc> schuki: lots of things have been happening over the last month
15:04:26 <marcosc> schuki: we have a lot to cover - including new agenda items sent to the list
15:04:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:47 <tobie__> Zakim, [ is me
15:04:47 <Zakim> +tobie__; got it
15:04:50 <marcosc> Zakim, mute me
15:04:50 <Zakim> sorry, marcosc, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:04:58 <marcosc> TOPIC: Payments
15:05:08 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases
15:05:16 <marcosc> schuki: just going to share our repo ^^^
15:05:43 <Zakim> -tobie__
15:06:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:10 <marcosc> schuki: there was a payments workshop this week in Paris. It tried to tackle the various issues around payment on the Web. It had large participation from Operators, browser vendors, and banking sector folks
15:06:13 <tobie__> Zakim, [ is me
15:06:13 <Zakim> +tobie__; got it
15:06:29 <Zakim> + +1.908.559.aaff
15:06:47 <marcosc> schuki: I ran through some of the things that were relevant to our group while there
15:07:00 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/2013/10/payments/agenda.html
15:07:04 <marcosc> schuki: payment workshop agenda ^^^
15:07:37 <dan_sun> dan_sun has joined #webmob
15:07:52 <marcosc> schuki: lots of different topics were covered. We talked mostly about the issues with payments online - on the session I moderated, we talked about the user experience and the challenges there with privacy, security, experience, etc.
15:08:05 <marcosc> schuki: identity and security were things that kept coming up
15:09:19 <marcosc> schuki: identity has been a big focus at various orgs outside the w3c... I see it becoming a big thing at the w3c
15:09:56 <marcosc> schuki: mobile user experience with regards to payments came up a lot
15:10:11 <marcosc> schuki: it was not as discussed as much as I expected
15:10:27 <ernesto> zakim, unmute me
15:10:27 <Zakim> ernesto should no longer be muted
15:10:54 <ernesto> q+ to comment on "Trusted UI"
15:11:30 <marcosc> dka: there are issues, for instance, like when you are making a payment there is no UA chrome to indicate to the user that they are making a secure payment. There was also issues around typing in passwords and long credit card numbers... no consensus that we should be addressing this at the w3c
15:11:31 <tobie__> q+ to mention about creating UX docs similar to what Marcos has been doing for app case studies
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15:12:08 <schuki> q?
15:12:09 <marcosc> schuki: yes, so there was questions about how comprehensible these interfaces are, etc.
15:12:53 <ernesto> typing, sorry, wrong place
15:13:03 <schuki> ack ernesto
15:13:06 <Zakim> ernesto, you wanted to comment on "Trusted UI"
15:13:13 <ernesto> I was going to comment that Trusted UI was raised about knowing where you are
15:13:15 <schuki> ack tobie__
15:13:15 <Zakim> tobie__, you wanted to mention about creating UX docs similar to what Marcos has been doing for app case studies
15:13:18 <schuki> q?
15:13:40 <ernesto> but it's also going to be about having shared session across different apps with different cookie jars
15:13:43 <ernesto> whihc
15:13:48 <bshambaugh> q+
15:13:50 <ernesto> which mozPay sholved too
15:14:10 <marcosc> tobie__: talking about UX, the type of work that Marcos did with netinfo might also be good to do with Web payments. Some non-normative guidelines would be very helpful there.
15:14:12 <ernesto> +1 tobie__'s comment that we need a doc about current status and landscape
15:14:14 <ernesto> and requirements
15:14:27 <ernesto> s/sholved/solved/
15:14:46 <Zakim> -ernesto
15:15:04 <schuki> marcosc: i agree
15:15:10 <schuki> .. we need to deal with this as well
15:15:13 <Zakim> +??P9
15:15:26 <ernesto> zakim, ??P9 is me
15:15:26 <Zakim> +ernesto; got it
15:15:29 <schuki> ... but it does get quite complicated, and i would like to tackle this whole thing,
15:15:43 <schuki> ... we're trying to deal with this in the manifest spec
15:17:02 <ernesto> in my opinion, we should try to look how to enable seamless UX in platforms with shared cookie jars and per-app cookie jars
15:17:03 <schuki> marcosc: to tobies point, we did send an email tp payments list
15:17:08 <schuki> ... currently we have a doc
15:17:18 <schuki> ... but they're all missing the user exp
15:17:19 <ernesto> also, this is not only payments related. OAuth flows needs this too
15:17:33 <schuki> ... doc is good, does reveal the interesting things, but doesn't get to core of the matter
15:18:03 <schuki> ... cryptocurrencies is a good point too
15:18:28 <marcosc> schuki: I agree with tobie__'s suggestion
15:20:23 <schuki> marcosc: it's good to keep the use cases broad
15:20:26 <marcosc> schuki: at the top of the use cases document you can now see an amalgamation of the use cases. I've also marked the relevant to mobile.
15:20:28 <schuki> ... desktop etc
15:21:15 <schuki> q?
15:21:20 <marcosc> schuki: we have a good relationship with that web payments group. We should continue working with them on this
15:21:34 <schuki> ack bshambaugh
15:21:49 <marcosc> bshambaugh: had a question about what a primitive is when talking about user interfaces?
15:23:34 <tobie__> q+ for main takeaways
15:23:44 <schuki> q?
15:23:53 <schuki> ack tobie__
15:23:53 <Zakim> tobie__, you wanted to discuss main takeaways
15:23:56 <marcosc> schuki: we should keep the standardization aspects very simple. Robin suggested that keeping things simple through using web intents - like just a "pay" intent. Moving further from that, when talking about "wallet" - it got complicated about what defines a wallet... it was the feeling that this should be an implementation detail rather than something to be standardized
15:25:14 <marcosc> tobie__: these were my takeaways. On the one side, there are a bunch of items that came up over the two days - some primitives: intent to pay and a data model to describe receipts. Work on these primitives could start now amongst different working groups.
15:25:49 <dka> Some stuff from my wrap-up notes relevant to webmob: Intents-to-pay, NFC APis, use of push API in auth scenarios, web crypto, webapps work on request auto-complete, geofencing use cases, secure element API in sysapps…
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15:26:01 <schuki> q?
15:26:02 <marcosc> tobie__: second point, there needs to be a longer term plan ... it would be great if we had a group dedicated payments
15:27:33 <tobie__> +1 on Wallet being the wrong abstraction.
15:27:35 <marcosc> dka: it's a wrong assumption that we need a "wallet" abstraction to do payments - as we can already do payments on the web.
15:27:41 <ernesto> +100
15:28:13 <marcosc> schuki: let's follow on with tobie__'s idea
15:28:28 <dka> “Buying Starbucks™ coffee with my Starbucks™ App…”
15:28:28 <schuki> q?
15:28:33 <marcosc> schuki: does anyone have anything to add?
15:28:38 <dka> (in Paris)
15:28:42 <marcosc> dom: do we have a clear set of next steps
15:29:17 <dka> +1 to documenting some user experiences
15:29:29 <marcosc> schuki: the next step is to coordinate with Manu
15:29:38 <schuki> q?
15:29:58 <tobie__> q+ about scenarios
15:30:07 <ArtB> Q+ Is the payments CG poised/positioned to start a WG soon(ish)? [Sorry but I need to remain `muted`]
15:30:35 <Zakim> -ernesto
15:30:54 <Zakim> +??P1
15:31:05 <ernesto> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:31:05 <Zakim> +ernesto; got it
15:31:09 <ernesto> zakim, mute me
15:31:09 <Zakim> ernesto should now be muted
15:31:23 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases/issues/13
15:31:41 <tobie__> q?
15:31:41 <dka> For the minutes: my point about wallets is that - whilst (ahem) a wallet may indeed be a useful abstraction for some payment scenarios, it’s not necessary for all scenarios. An example of a scenario in which is not not useful would be use of a payment mechanism within a specific application environment, e.g. a loyalty-card-based-app like the Starbucks™ app example or e.g. within the Apple store app (using an app to buy goods in-store).
15:31:45 <schuki> q?
15:31:47 <marcosc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Mar/0004.html
15:31:48 <tobie__> ack about
15:31:55 <tobie__> ack scenarios
15:31:56 <marcosc> The email above has the questions
15:32:10 <marcosc> TOPIC: Installable webapps
15:32:33 <schuki> marcosc: i put together the document
15:32:39 <schuki> ... looks at usage from apple
15:32:43 <schuki> ... apple web app capable apps
15:32:49 <dka> Natasha you can give me an action to contribute to that document on payment scenarios as well.
15:32:55 <schuki> ... and whether these things are useful
15:33:01 <schuki> ... and they weren't
15:33:13 <schuki> marcosc: next steps is to publish as a note
15:33:25 <schuki> q?
15:33:36 <schuki> topic: Manifest
15:33:49 <schuki> marcosc: still trying to get implementers interested
15:33:55 <schuki> ... next week meeting in san jose
15:34:00 <schuki> ... i'll present this there
15:34:01 <Zakim> -dom
15:34:08 <schuki> ... see if more interest there
15:34:14 <schuki> ... moz pushing
15:34:15 <Zakim> +??P2
15:34:17 <dom> Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:34:17 <Zakim> +dom; got it
15:34:34 <schuki> dka: i would like to talk about it in extensible web summit
15:34:44 <schuki> http://lanyrd.com/2014/extensible-web-summit/
15:34:59 <schuki> marcosc: its allowing apps to be installed
15:35:04 <schuki> ... radical shift from befor
15:35:08 <schuki> s/befor/before
15:35:14 <dka> (registration for that is open and we still have space available by the way - 4/4 in San Francisco, hosted by Adobe)
15:35:34 <schuki> ... it's an evolutionary approach
15:36:10 <schuki> dka: when does it become real?
15:36:12 <tobie__> +1 to bridging the gap between web apps and installable web apps
15:36:23 <schuki> marcosc: we're limiting to the basic stuff, not pushing it too much
15:36:28 <schuki> ... hopefully it will become a reality soon
15:37:34 <schuki> dka: discussion with samsung guys, sounded like they may put into  their android browser
15:38:43 <schuki> dka: samsung said they will be interested if it's W3C
15:38:49 <schuki> ... good to discuss with them
15:39:06 <dka> q+ to ask about ios installable webapps
15:39:09 <dom> +1 to publish research as IG NOTE
15:39:33 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/tree/gh-pages/ios_standalone
15:39:48 <schuki> dka: is iOS really that dire?
15:39:53 <schuki> marcosc: yes!
15:40:19 <marcosc> "Despite these 1097 sites claiming they can be used as standalone, what we found was that the majority of web apps (90%, or 324 out of 360) can not be used as standalone. Only a tiny fraction (10%, or 36 out of 360) are able to run as standalone - and 28% of those had significant limitations (described below). There is, in fact, a greater percentage (12%) of desktop sites masquerading as installable web apps than there are actual standalone app
15:40:19 <marcosc> lications. "
15:42:28 <schuki> dka: might want to be careful on negativity in a note
15:43:23 <schuki> marcosc: apple and firefox know these things are broken, so we need to know how to fix things on the browser side
15:43:40 <schuki> ... devs want to do this but browser vendors isn't catering to them
15:43:48 <schuki> ... manifest should do this
15:43:53 <tobie__> q+
15:43:54 <schuki> ... so we need to push on this
15:44:03 <schuki> ack dka
15:44:03 <Zakim> dka, you wanted to ask about ios installable webapps
15:44:11 <dka> +1 to publishing it as an IG note
15:44:13 <schuki> ack tobie__
15:44:31 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/tree/gh-pages/ios_standalone#recommendations-to-implementersw3c
15:45:09 <schuki> marcosc: we have a recommendations section
15:45:45 <schuki> tobie__: how about focusing on the most successful apps
15:45:53 <schuki> ... and whether this gave different results
15:45:55 <schuki> marcosc: this is what we did
15:46:00 <schuki> ... the top 20k
15:46:07 <marcosc> top 78000K
15:46:58 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/tree/gh-pages/ios_standalone#methods-and-limitations
15:47:08 <schuki> marcosc: methodology outlined ^
15:47:13 <schuki> tobie__: this is sound
15:47:21 <schuki> ... if what we want to look at top 100k apps
15:47:29 <schuki> ... but not a good sample of what users use
15:48:05 <schuki> marcosc: maybe could add to limitations
15:48:13 <schuki> tobie__: +1 to work, it's awesome
15:48:33 <marcosc> TOPIC: Identity
15:48:34 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/identity
15:48:39 <marcosc> schuki: repo ^^^
15:48:57 <marcosc> schuki: it was raised on the list as something we should look at
15:49:21 <marcosc> schuki: in the payments identity came up a lot, so I'm keen to get this going again
15:49:45 <marcosc> schuki: however, I'm already working on two items so I can't lead it.
15:50:14 <marcosc> schuki: I know there are people from AT&T and Telenor interested in this area.
15:50:28 <schuki> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebID
15:50:39 <marcosc> schuki: some of you might already be aware of the WebID work.
15:51:18 <marcosc> schuki: the feedback that I'm hearing is that it's great as an academic piece, but needs more work to be applicable to a wider web context
15:51:30 <schuki> q?
15:51:56 <marcosc> schuki: I'm interested to hear if people have any comments about identity and how we should progress
15:52:01 <dom> Manu blogged recently on this FWIW http://manu.sporny.org/2014/credential-based-login/
15:52:48 <marcosc> shane: I've been talking to people about this topic. I know there is a long history covering this space. I think we should start the work on this group.
15:54:02 <marcosc> schuki: I would like to be involved or someone from the GSMA should be involved. We are very interested in this area at the GSMA - lots of folks looking at identity there. We could have some good inputs.
15:54:31 <marcosc> schuki: but I'll let Shane coordinate with Manu about how we can proceed.
15:55:03 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/identity/wiki/Use-Case-List
15:55:11 <marcosc> schuki: is people can think about identity or have something to add to the discussion, please use the wiki ^^^
15:55:24 <schuki> q?
15:55:38 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/offline
15:55:40 <marcosc> TOPIC: Offline
15:55:53 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker
15:56:09 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/tree/master/examples
15:56:19 <Zakim> -McCarron
15:56:21 <marcosc> schuki: this is the correct repo - we've forked it from the official one
15:56:41 <marcosc> schuki: we are interested in doing the examples
15:57:13 <marcosc> schuki: they are being standardized as part of the WebApps WG.
15:57:33 <marcosc> MC: they haven't actually put done that yet :)
15:57:59 <marcosc> schuki: by doing the examples, we can help verify the spec
15:58:19 <marcosc> s/put//
15:59:04 <marcosc> schuki: we are waiting from browser vendors to put something out
15:59:13 <marcosc> MC: Mozilla is also trying to get something out
16:00:01 <marcosc> MC: we should have something out at the same time as Chrome
16:00:08 <schuki> q?
16:00:23 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
16:00:29 <ArtB> ArtB has left #webmob
16:00:30 <marcosc> TOPIC: permissions
16:00:31 <Zakim> - +44.207.356.aacc
16:00:42 <marcosc> schuki: anything happening in that space?
16:01:00 <marcosc> dom: not particularly. The TAG was supposed to look at this too.
16:01:14 <marcosc> dka: we have not done much of yet at the TAG yet
16:01:17 <Zakim> -ernesto
16:01:33 <marcosc> dka: I'm going to add it to the agenda to the TAG F2F
16:01:48 <marcosc> schuki: it came up also at EdgeConf
16:02:03 <Zakim> - +47.66.71.aaee
16:02:07 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
16:02:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see dka, schuki, Bin_Hu, +1.416.848.aabb, +1.405.364.aadd, tobie__, +1.908.559.aaff, dom
16:02:20 <marcosc> schuki: if a member organization wants to help lead it, it would be great
16:02:28 <schuki> q?
16:02:35 <dka> thanks though!
16:02:38 <Zakim> -dka
16:02:43 <marcosc> TOPIC: network info
16:02:58 <schuki> marcosc: ready to publish, sent request to chairs list
16:03:03 <schuki> ... hopefully get out on 27th
16:03:23 <schuki> dom: please send email to phillip
16:04:24 <marcosc> TOPIC: AOB
16:04:25 <Zakim> -Bin_Hu
16:04:26 <Zakim> -schuki
16:04:31 <Zakim> -tobie__
16:04:32 <Zakim> - +1.405.364.aadd
16:04:32 <Zakim> - +1.908.559.aaff
16:04:36 <marcosc> schuki: no other comments
16:04:43 <schuki> great call this month :D
16:04:48 <marcosc> meeting adjourned
16:04:51 <Zakim> -dom
16:05:08 <schuki> coffee & lunch!!!!
16:05:14 <schuki> um.....
16:06:13 <Zakim> - +1.416.848.aabb
16:06:14 <Zakim> UW_WEBMOB()11:00AM has ended
16:06:14 <Zakim> Attendees were dka, schuki, +1.650.946.aaaa, McCarron, Art_Barstow, +1.416.848.aabb, +44.207.356.aacc, +1.405.364.aadd, dom, ernesto, Bin_Hu, +47.66.71.aaee, [IPcaller], tobie__,
16:06:14 <Zakim> ... +1.908.559.aaff
16:07:34 <dka> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:07:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/26-webmob-minutes.html dka
16:07:44 <dka> rrsagent, make logs public
16:08:54 <schuki> oh thanks dka!
16:09:04 <schuki> thank-you everyone for joining today
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16:09:48 <marcosc> trackbot make minutes
16:09:48 <trackbot> Sorry, marcosc, I don't understand 'trackbot make minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:10:30 <marcosc> ah, dka already did it :)
16:10:56 <marcosc> heh, thanks!!!
16:12:47 <ernesto> "dka, the minute maker"
16:12:55 <ernesto> soon in the best cinemas near you
16:14:40 <marcosc> dom: I'm sending minuntes now
16:14:44 <marcosc> or minutes
16:28:30 <marcosc> dom: so, how do we move forward with the netinfo use cases doc?
16:29:01 <dom> marcosc, as I suggested, you should ping PH to make sure he approves teh publication
16:29:22 <marcosc> dom, ok
16:29:22 <dom> then it's "just" a matter of sending the publication request (which either your or I can take care of as you prefer)
16:30:07 <marcosc> be great to get your help with the pub request
16:30:14 <marcosc> I'll ping PH now
16:40:22 <dom> marcosc, ph has just approved it; how do you want to proceed from there? should I take care of the publication request? should I retarget tomorrow or next week (as the doc now states)?
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16:46:52 <marcosc> dom: up to you, if we can hit tomorrow that would be great
16:47:01 <marcosc> I can just change the date back
16:47:20 <dom> hmm... let's stick to next week, I guess there is no specific hurry
16:47:33 <marcosc> np
16:47:37 <dom> I'll take care of the publication request then
16:47:43 <marcosc> excellent! thank you!
16:47:54 <marcosc> I'll prepare the other doc for publication
16:48:08 <marcosc> need to respec-eee-fy it
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