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08:31:11 <dsr> meeting: Web and TV Convergence workshop
08:31:23 <dsr> Topic: Introduction by Philipp Hoschka
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08:31:49 <dsr> The Web is 25 years old, let's make history today!
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08:32:47 <dsr> Let's put the Web and TV together!
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08:34:23 <dsr> Philipp introduces the goals of this workshop.
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08:35:20 <dsr> W3C is also celebrating its 20th year.
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08:36:04 <dsr> W3C is expanding our reach into new areas, e.g.  TV and automotive,
08:36:33 <dsr> Today we will focus on Hybrid TV and multi-screen.
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08:37:09 <dsr> Tomorrow, we will continue on multiscreeen then focus on ongoing work and upcoming topics.
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08:37:27 <dsr> Finally, we will try to prioritize next steps.
08:38:45 <dsr> The major players are here at the workshop,  and come from all over the World.
08:39:36 <dsr> This is a great opportunity to exchange ideas,.  I would like to thank our host IRT and our sponsor NBCUniversal, and lastly our reviewers.
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08:40:00 <dsr> Topic: Welcome from IRT
08:40:46 <dsr> Ralf Neudel welcomes everyone to IRT.  We are a research institute working for public broadcasters.
08:41:23 <dsr> The convergence of the TV world and the Web world is very exciting for us!
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08:42:11 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:42:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
08:42:29 <dsr> We see a lot of excitement about the prospects for the convergence, after an early phase of trepidation.
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08:43:23 <dsr> It took radio 30 years to reach the same audience that the Web reached in 3 years.
08:43:48 <dsr> Have a great workshop and let me pass you back to Philipp.
08:44:11 <dsr> Topic: Introduction to W3C Process and Terminology
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08:45:26 <dsr> Work at W3C typically starts with a workshop which often leads to a Community Group or a Working Group.
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08:45:55 <dsr> Working Group's drive specifications to standards (W3C Recommendations).
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08:46:40 <dsr> Our working groups  are open and welcome feedback from the public.
08:47:18 <dsr> Community Groups are free and you don't need to belong to a W3C Member.
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08:48:27 <dsr> We have Interest Groups e.g. the Web and TV Interest Group -- http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/
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08:49:22 <dsr> The Working Group process progresses specifications  from Working Draft to Last Call Working Draft (when a spec is mature and stable).
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08:50:43 <dsr> This is followed by a Candidate Recommendation where we look for implementation feedback.  This is followed by a Proposed Recommendation where we seek review from the W3C Advisory Committee, and the spec then becomes a W3C Recommendation.
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08:51:06 <dsr> Question: how does the implementation feedback work?
08:51:26 <dsr> Answer: we provide a set of tests against which implementations can be assessed.
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08:52:19 <dsr> Topic: Web & TV IG Overview
08:52:27 <dsr> See http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/
08:53:30 <dsr> Guiseppe Pascale introduces the goals of the interest group as set out in the charter:
08:53:32 <dsr> http://www.w3.org/2012/11/webTVIGcharter.html
08:54:21 <dsr> Interest Groups are not the same as Working Groups.  The former focuses on requirements and input for working groups.
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08:55:10 <dsr> We work through email with an archived list.
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08:55:57 <dsr> We start with use cases, and extract requirements. We then perform a gap analysis on what's missing from existing standards.
08:56:41 <dsr> This work is usually done on task forces that address a specific topic.
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08:57:27 <dsr> We may issue bug reports, e.g. against the HTML specification, or we may propose work on a new API.
08:57:53 <dsr> This may in turn lead to a new working group being set up.
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08:58:48 <dsr> The home network task force (now closed) addressed local discovry and control of devices in local area IP networks.
08:59:14 <dsr> Opera and Cable Labs then proposed an API to the W3C Device APIs WG.
08:59:43 <dsr> We got some review by implementers and the Privacy Interest Group and adjusted the API accordingly.
09:00:28 <dsr> The Media Pipeline task force (now closed) focused on improving the HTML5 media pipeline, e.g. for support for multitrack.
09:01:11 <dsr> The media source extensions and encrypted media extensions appeared as a result of this task force.
09:01:41 <dsr> These are being driven along the standards track in the HTML WG.
09:02:40 <dsr> The testing task force (now closed) focused on testing, use cases and requirements.
09:03:58 <dsr> The timed text task force (now closed) focused on facilitating use of TTML and WebVTT for subtitles.
09:04:30 <dsr> Close collaboration is recommended for these two approaches.
09:05:07 <dsr> The charter for the Timed Text WG is currently under review.
09:06:01 <dsr> Finally, the media APIs task force (ongoing), which focuses on recording and downloading of media, discovery and control of device capabilities.
09:06:25 <dsr> We are discussing what it means to integrate with the tuner.
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09:06:57 <dsr> We have also looked at what changes are needed for other related specs.
09:07:57 <dsr> All of this depends on people actively engaging with the work! We need your help.
09:08:05 <dsr> Questions?
09:09:15 <dsr> Question: to what extent the feedback from the testing task force have been adopted?
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09:09:57 <yosuke_> q?
09:10:40 <dsr> Philipp:  there is two levels of testing at W3C. The first is a test for each feature of a spec. We are planning on component testing -- this looks like it would be quite expensive and looked for funders without success.
09:11:18 <dsr> We will keep this plan on the shelf but are not actively looking for funders anymore.
09:12:05 <dsr> So whilst we remain focused on spec feature testing, we are not actively working on component testing right now.
09:12:45 <dsr> Guiseppe: W3C is working on the test framework.
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09:13:20 <yosuke> q?
09:13:36 <dsr> Bryan: contribution based approach and encouragement through test the web forward events.
09:13:42 <ddavis> http://www.testthewebforward.org
09:15:47 <dsr> Question: any idea on the roadmap for the tuner work?
09:16:51 <dsr> Guiseppe: we're looking for greater involvement to help move this forward. May be one year to produce a stable spec?
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09:17:56 <dsr> Depending upon how broad the requirements, we may proceed in two phases,  based upon the priorities for individual features.
09:18:29 <dsr> ???: the speed depends on the people involved -- if this matters to you please join us!
09:18:59 <dsr> s/???/Clarke/
09:19:12 <dsr> ... we break for coffee and demos
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10:01:24 <ddavis> Scribe: Daniel
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10:01:32 <ddavis> scribenick: ddavis
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10:01:57 <ddavis> Topic: Session 2 - Hybrid TV
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10:07:39 <ddavis> kirk: I'm going to talk about HbbTV - reinventing the broadcast TV UX
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10:08:19 <ddavis> ... I'll give you an overview of what HbbTV is about.
10:08:30 <ddavis> ... 5 or 6 minutes.
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10:08:54 <ddavis> ... HbbTV started in 2009 to provide a more interactive experience for consumers.
10:09:14 <ddavis> ... Meant to be a platform across regions around the globe.
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10:10:00 <ddavis> ... Business drivers are the analog switch off, consumer demand, broadcaster innovation, government initiatives and pay-TV operators.
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10:10:47 <ddavis> ... Adoption in Europe is shown on the screen.
10:11:20 <ddavis> ... We're starting to see international adoption as well, still building in recent weeks.
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10:11:51 <ddavis> ... ASBU (equivalent of EBU for Arabic countries) is also adding HbbTV to its DTT recommendations.
10:12:07 <ddavis> ... As well as interest in French-speaking African countries and Australia.
10:12:37 <ddavis> ... We have a 2.0 version which Jon will talk about shortly.
10:12:57 <ddavis> ... Millions of units are being shipped in many countries with wide STB support.
10:13:21 <ddavis> ... HbbTV 1.0 introduced various features - playback, download, channel lists, etc.
10:13:45 <ddavis> ... HbbTV 1.5 adds MPEG DASH, DRM APIs, etc.
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10:14:29 <ddavis> ... HbbTV 2.0 has features under consideration including improved HTML5 support, companion apps support, improved support for ad insertion, improved synchronization between media and applications, etc.
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10:15:01 <ddavis> ... Services available include VOD, information, shopping, education, games, advertising, tv portal, companion screen
10:15:04 <ddavis> s/tv/TV
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10:15:58 <ddavis> kirk: So to summarize, we have good momentum and growth, different stakeholders coming together, and an active LinkedIn group.
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10:16:23 <ddavis> ... No over to Jon Piesing
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10:16:40 <ddavis> jon: HbbTV 2.0 started with a list of 19 requirements.
10:16:54 <ddavis> ... Most relevant here are related to W3C specs or companion screen.
10:17:10 <ddavis> ... Starting with web specs...
10:17:45 <ddavis> ... First version was heavily influenced by Open IPTV Forum, based around a TV profile of W3C specs.
10:18:25 <ddavis> ... In HbbTV we have HTML5, some CSS 2.1 and 3, DOM 3, and some other HTML5-related specs such as canvas 2D, XHR, etc.
10:19:01 <ddavis> ... For some of the specs only a profile is required. For specs that are not Recommendations it's OK to use newer versions.
10:19:35 <ddavis> ... For integration, e.g. video element, you have to specify how it fits with other areas such as hardware decoders, so integration is important.
10:20:17 <ddavis> ... An example of this is the "controls" attribute of the video element. This specifies how much of the controls are available to the web page or an app.
10:20:43 <ddavis> ... There are a number of bugs that we've submitted to W3C.
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10:21:23 <ddavis> ... For companion screen, we have discovery and launching a companion app from the TV.
10:21:48 <ddavis> ... The TV browser can discover apps that can be connected.
10:22:10 <ddavis> ... There's a web socket server on the TV so the app gets the IP address of the server.
10:22:37 <ddavis> ... We've gone for something similar to DIAL for app-launching companion apps.
10:23:00 <ddavis> ... For strategic issues, we find some gaps in HTML5 for IP-delivered video.
10:23:34 <ddavis> ... Some parties would like to get away from using our A/V object.
10:24:07 <ddavis> ... There's one web but there isn't one TV. There's regional, country or operator differences.
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10:25:17 <ddavis> jon: There needs to be understanding of the differences between one web and regional TV
10:25:56 <ddavis> question: How does companion screen discovery work, when does it happen?
10:26:30 <ddavis> jon: It's complicated. We assume the launcher app is already there. It could be remote control app by the TV manufacturer.
10:26:55 <ddavis> ... If you have e.g. a Samsung TV, the user would run the launcher app on the TV.
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10:27:12 <yosuke> s/regional TV/regional TV if you look into the details/
10:27:13 <ddavis> s/TV/tablet/
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10:27:56 <ddavis> klaus: Next is HbbTV certification and testing
10:28:31 <ddavis> simon: Welcome. I'm Simon Waller
10:28:49 <ddavis> ... A typical TV viewer looks like Homer Simpson.
10:29:06 <ddavis> ... It's a laid-back experience and the TV remote is not necessarily readily available.
10:29:20 <ddavis> ... But these days we have alternative methods - voice and gesture.
10:30:12 <ddavis> ... What's the broadcaster expectation? We currently have over 100 apps which for us is a lot.
10:30:28 <ddavis> ... Broadcasters expect their apps to look identical on every TV and STB.
10:30:41 <ddavis> ... TV manufacturers want this as well.
10:30:55 <ddavis> ... In the TV space, there are roughly 10 new browsers launched.
10:31:12 <ddavis> ... That means a new snapshot of e.g. WebKit
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10:31:36 <ddavis> ... and no software updates - we tend not to do this in the TV space, except for bug fixing.
10:31:48 <ddavis> ... So app developers have to deal with a lot of different browsers and quirks.
10:32:00 <ddavis> ... How can the viewer know apps will work?
10:32:26 <ddavis> ... What should users look for? We have an HbbTV logo available for license.
10:32:59 <ddavis> ... It's based on a test suite and the manufacturer sings an agreement to use it.
10:33:18 <ddavis> ... In this agreement it says "TV has to pass HbbTV Test Suite" - all of them, no exceptions.
10:33:32 <ddavis> ... The manufacturer commits to try to resolve interoperability problems.
10:34:04 <ddavis> ... If the TV is proven to be non-compliant, the manufacturer must update the TV software
10:35:03 <ddavis> ddavis: Next speaker: Andy Hickman
10:35:18 <ddavis> andy: HbbTV just has to work - that's what testing is for.
10:35:29 <ddavis> ... The test harness is basically a PC doing three things:
10:35:36 <ddavis> ... 1 web server for TV apps
10:35:58 <ddavis> ... 2. Playing a DVB transport stream
10:36:17 <ddavis> ... 3. It's also a video server, playing MP4, DASH with and without DRM over IP.
10:36:42 <ddavis> ... Each test case in the test suite has an XML file describing the test and the test itself - images, javascript, CSS, etc.
10:37:16 <ddavis> ... The test case description XML files are very important.
10:37:45 <ddavis> ... They have metadata - title, test ID, formal assertion saying what expected behaviour is, description, steps of the test.
10:38:10 <ddavis> ... Within the test suite, metadata is used for management - which chapters and references specs are used.
10:38:19 <Mohammed> whois Mohammed
10:38:29 <ddavis> andy: Also says which spec version the test applies to.
10:38:52 <ddavis> ... Finally metadata for licensing, history, etc.
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10:39:26 <ddavis> ... In comparing HbbTV with W3C testing, I'm not a W3C expert so may have some things wrong - please let me know.
10:39:50 <ddavis> ... W3C has more reduced test metadata.
10:40:24 <ddavis> ... HbbTV has a precisely defined test case list. In extreme cases, a failed test can cause a manufacturer to stop production.
10:41:00 <ddavis> ... You either pass or fail test test suite, whereas in the web world it's rare for a browser to say "I pass 100%"
10:41:15 <ddavis> ... Both HbbTV and W3C are looking for automation.
10:41:34 <ddavis> ... For W3C you can install the test suites locally.
10:41:48 <ddavis> ... For HbbTV you must have a test harness implementation.
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10:42:06 <ddavis> ... The output of the test harness must be a machine-readable and verifiable report.
10:42:28 <ddavis> ... The test must be run on an unmodified, off-the-shelf device.
10:42:36 <ddavis> ... HbbTV does not address DRM testing.
10:43:10 <ddavis> ... It's an area that the HbbTV community is interested in. I think there's interest in EME testing for W3C.
10:43:21 <ddavis> ... Video testing is critical for HbbTV.
10:43:37 <ddavis> ... I'm not sure how well that's tested in W3C.
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10:43:55 <ddavis> simon: HbbTV is used in many countries around the world. The number of apps is growing.
10:44:12 <ddavis> ... The number of devices is growing.
10:44:24 <ddavis> ... Broadcasters want compatibility.
10:45:00 <ddavis> ... HbbTV builds upon W3C Recommendations. It's important to enable HbbTV to be more closely aligned with W3C.
10:45:23 <ddavis> ... There are issues if browsers don't support parts of a test suite.
10:46:03 <ddavis> andy: There's a lot of interest in cooperation between HbbTV and W3C, recognizing that there are differences between the approaches.
10:46:31 <ddavis> ... Better specs -> better tests -> better compatibility -> better user experience
10:47:30 <ddavis> David Singer: You said the experience should be the same on every device, whereas W3C wants correct experience on every browser. Do you need "the same"?
10:47:53 <ddavis> simon: You don't for there to be errors in the implementation so that the page is displayed wrong.
10:48:30 <ddavis> Bryan Sullivan: Most of the goals are shared with W3C (which is contribution-driven) doesn't give W3C as much room to be exact.
10:49:10 <ddavis> ... People pay HbbTV to provide tests which W3C doesn't have. But W3C should take good practices from HbbTV and discuss/follow-up on that.
10:50:21 <ddavis> Next is Kinji Matsumura (NHK)
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10:50:59 <ddavis> "Overview of IPTV Forum Japan's Hybridcast Technical Specification"
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10:57:20 <ddavis> kinji: Hybridcast uses HTML5. NHK started the Hybridcast service in September 2013
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10:57:41 <ddavis> ... Commercial broadcasters are carrying out trial services.
10:58:01 <ddavis> .. Major TV manufacturers are adopting Hybridcast.
10:58:23 <ddavis> ... Version 1.0 was published in March 2013 - the English translation has just been made available
10:58:34 <ddavis> http://www.iptvforum.jp/en/download
10:58:54 <ddavis> kinji: Technical specs consist of two documents:
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10:59:29 <ddavis> ... "Intergrated broadcast-broadband system specification" and "HTML5 browser specification."
10:59:42 <ddavis> ... Diagram of overall architecture is on the screen.
11:00:35 <ddavis> ... Hybridcast spec covers enhanced APIs for applications, and app control and management, and companion device connection and message.
11:00:57 <ddavis> ... 1. Application Control and Management. This is outside the browser so no direct overlap with W3C specs.
11:01:18 <ddavis> ... AIT is "Application Information Table"
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11:01:56 <ddavis> ... AIT can be used in two ways - multiplexed in the broadcast signal or acquired over HTTP.
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11:02:44 <ddavis> ... This is similar to HbbTV but there are some differences in getting data from the server.
11:02:58 <ddavis> ... 2. "Enhancements to HTML5"
11:03:30 <ddavis> ... Some key API enhancements include displaying video/audio using an object element with type attribute "video/iptvf-broadcast"
11:03:48 <ddavis> ... Like the video tag, this can use CSS to specify coordination and z-order.
11:04:12 <ddavis> ... There is also a Broadcast Resource Access API - the most frequently used API.
11:04:33 <ddavis> ... It has a ReceiverDevice object and a StreamEventTarget object.
11:05:07 <ddavis> ... The GeneralEventMessageListener is almost the same as the StreamEvent.
11:05:22 <ddavis> ... Some Hybridcast second-screen screenshots are on the screen.
11:05:37 <ddavis> ... We use a native app for companion devices.
11:05:58 <ddavis> ... The user launches it and connects to the TV, to control the TV contents.
11:06:12 <ddavis> ... The user can answer quiz show questions, for example.
11:06:24 <yosuke> s/second-screen/second-screen, or companion-application, /
11:06:45 <ddavis> kinji: It works as a browser for HTML5 applications on second-screen device.
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11:07:03 <ddavis> ... The companion apps are mostly developed and distributed by each TV manufacturer.
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11:07:29 <ddavis> ... The companion app launch sequence is a bit complicated.
11:08:05 <ddavis> ... When the user launches the companion app, it discovers the receiver and receives data.
11:08:42 <ddavis> ... The TV connects to the broadcaster's server. Then the app on TV calls setURLForCompanionDevice to instruct the companion device to load an app.
11:09:12 <ddavis> ... Then the native companion app loads an HTML app from the instructed URL.
11:09:41 <ddavis> ... and maker.js in the HTML app implements the APIs to communicate with the TV App.
11:09:56 <ddavis> ... Apps on both ends communicate with each other.
11:10:37 <ddavis> ... In conclusion, we have 6 months of experience since launching Hybridcast.
11:10:57 <ddavis> ... We hope to identify further requirements towards establishing better standards.
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11:11:48 <ddavis> @@@: Is Hybridcast also suitable for rolling out in the education sector for schools?
11:12:03 <ddavis> kinji: Yes, I think so.
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11:12:40 <ddavis> kinji: HTML5 content can interact with broadcast content. NHK has an educational channel and we're looking into this.
11:13:06 <ddavis> Clarke Stevens: HbbTV and Hybridcast seem to have overlapping goals. Is there any effort to work together or are they in competition?
11:13:54 <ddavis> kinji: That's one reason why we're here. Ideally we could migrate to one standard, but there are many local requirements to consider, e.g. what remains a regional standard.
11:14:38 <ddavis> yosuke: HbbTV and IPTV Forum Japan are talking together about how to exchange information. Also, talking within W3C is another effort towards cooperation.
11:14:43 <ddavis> s/@@@/Turgay Yoo/
11:15:22 <ddavis> Jon Piesing: There are opportunities for learning from each other, but TV is inherently regional. Japanese TV has its own requirements.
11:15:37 <ddavis> ... HbbTV came from something fundamentally different to the Japanese system.
11:16:15 <ddavis> ... There are opportunities but TV isn't global. If you try to make a global spec for a market that isn't global you're going to end up using a lot of time and energy that won't meet expectations.
11:17:10 <ddavis> Philipp Hoschka: I understand TV is different in Japan but how does that impact web APIs that you want to use? What part of web technology has to be regional because TV isn't global?
11:17:54 <ddavis> Jon Piesing: We can talk in more detail in the panel later, but we have a list APIs from Hybridcast - HbbTV has a similar list.
11:18:26 <ddavis> ... You could push them into a single set of APIs with the same syntax but the actual semantics would end up relating to the broadcast system you're running on.
11:18:42 <ddavis> ... E.g. return values could be different depending on region.
11:18:53 <ddavis> ... The API could be global but only in appearances.
11:19:18 <ddavis> ... Concrete examples I know of are parental access controls, metadata, failure reasons.
11:19:45 <ddavis> ... Once you start exposing channels, their description is usually TV-specific.
11:20:05 <ddavis> ... The more you try and coordinate, the longer it takes.
11:20:33 <ddavis> ... Let's do the best we can and not try to boil the ocean.
11:21:33 <ddavis> Next presentation is "The 1st Implementation Report on TV Programs on Hybrid Broadcasting System using HTML5 Browser-Hybridcast 2014 Project" by Kunio Numabe and Kazuhiro Hoya (Fuji TV)
11:22:10 <ddavis> kunio: We are all from Japanese commercial broadcasters.
11:22:20 <ddavis> ... We've been discussing convergence with W3C specs.
11:22:51 <ddavis> ... We're getting fedback from the first implementation of HTML5 browsers.
11:23:10 <ddavis> ... We're working with the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communication in Japan.
11:23:28 <ddavis> ... We're producing experimental programmes using HTML5 and companion devices.
11:23:47 <ddavis> ... We tried various kinds of programmes - sports, animation, etc.
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11:24:45 <ddavis> Keiji Yaniguchi: I'm from TBS.
11:25:20 <ddavis> keiji: We made a football (soccer) programme with Hybridcast technology using a large amount of data in realtime.
11:25:33 <ddavis> ... The viewer can put widgets on the screen and see rich play data.
11:25:49 <ddavis> ... The viewing rate was 2.6%
11:26:16 <ddavis> ... One widget is pass conversion rate. Another one is player running distances.
11:26:31 <ddavis> ... The widgets were written in canvas, SVG and CSS
11:26:47 <ddavis> ... The last widget is a heatmap.
11:27:07 <ddavis> ... We tried to make it with SVG but the specs were lacking so we used an image instead.
11:27:35 <ddavis> ... We also have second screen applications using HTML5. You can use the smartphone to see a replay.
11:28:04 <ddavis> ... Data arrives from the stadium, goes through the server, and gets shown on TV and smartphones.
11:28:40 <ddavis> Kohei Kawakami: I'm from Nippon TV
11:28:47 <yosuke> s/the specs were lacking/the performance of Hybridcast TV sets so far were not yet sufficient/
11:28:49 <ddavis> ... We aired two programmes this winter.
11:29:04 <yosuke> s/an image instead/images instead/
11:29:11 <ddavis> ... Users can enjoy not only Hybridcast TV but also legacy TV via smartphones.
11:29:33 <ddavis> ... Viewing figures are small but this is one small step for Hybridcast, one giant leap for broadcasting.
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11:30:17 <ddavis> kohei: Hybridcast Service System Chart is shown on the screen, using CSS, jQuery and object tag for broadcast video.
11:30:35 <ddavis> kohei: Our service is able to connect with social network services and TV programmes.
11:31:10 <ddavis> ... So your friends who are watching the same programme as you can see your photo. You can enjoy programmes together.
11:31:21 <yosuke> s/jQuery/jQuery, Hybridcast lib, which is a lib for Hyrbridcast APIs NHK introduced in the previous presentation,/
11:31:25 <ddavis> ... We use web specs for animation.
11:32:10 <ddavis> Yusuke Fujii: I'm from TV Asahi
11:32:46 <ddavis> ... Our service has useful information available on the TV screen as a Hybridcast application.
11:33:26 <ddavis> ... By connecting to the internet, Hybridcast TV can receive information which can be viewed at any time regardless of the broadcast type.
11:33:51 <ddavis> ... Now, we can see a famous cartoon character in Japan. This service links a smartphone while watching the programme on air.
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11:34:10 <ddavis> ... Viewers are able to use their own phone as a remote and enjoy games during the TV programme.
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11:34:50 <ddavis> ... The Hybridcast API is used for this, to control the character. The character's abilities change over time.
11:35:01 <ddavis> ... So the longer you view, the more skills he gets.
11:35:22 <ddavis> ... We used canvas to implement this.
11:35:36 <ddavis> ... Please see our demos upstairs.
11:36:05 <ddavis> Kenji Sugihara: I'm from TV Tokyo.
11:36:42 <ddavis> ... Mission 001 is a shotter game TV program. It supports multiple devices.
11:37:02 <ddavis> ... 140,000 people have played this game. 1% of them had a Hybridcast TV.
11:37:22 <ddavis> ... The second screen serves as a game controller and the TV shows information.
11:37:52 <ddavis> ... The player taps the phone to easily control the game.
11:38:01 <ddavis> ... The synchronization uses WebSockets.
11:38:16 <ddavis> ... The information on the screen is shown using HTML5.
11:38:36 <ddavis> ... The TV can show hints, score and other animation.
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11:39:10 <ddavis> ... We used CSS sprites and jQuery Effects API for animation.
11:39:45 <ddavis> ... We aired this and enhanced the viewer's sense of participation.
11:40:13 <ddavis> Kazuhiro Hoya:  I'm from Fuji TV
11:40:31 <ddavis> ... We have some case studies.
11:40:54 <ddavis> ... We want to make the TV screen to show popups such as tweets or competitions/amusements
11:41:07 <ddavis> ... It could be a banner with sponsored content.
11:41:32 <ddavis> ... Advantages include rich expression and communication, as well as interaction.
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11:41:58 <ddavis> ... Some challenges are that it's very hard and uses human resources - we need a framework.
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11:42:18 <ddavis> ... Also compatibility. There are a lot of TVs on the market. We need a better testing method.
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11:42:36 <ddavis> ... Also, UX is an issue. Pushing a button the remote is easy.
11:42:57 <ddavis> ... But for second screen and pairing there are a lot of steps.
11:43:10 <ddavis> ... Using QR code is still hard for coach potatoes.
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11:43:46 <ddavis> ... We got some negative feedback - too much information on the screen, both on the screen overlay and on the second screen.
11:44:39 <ddavis> kazuhiro: We have 1.2 million viewers but just 1,064 using Hybridcast. And 76 users of second screen.
11:44:55 <ddavis> ... We had 1,890 tweets, 3,790 using our hashtag.
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13:04:54 <ddavis> Topic: Multi-screen 1
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13:07:52 <ddavis> Louis Bassbouss: I'm representing the second screen presentation community group. This paper is written by Intel.
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13:08:30 <ddavis> ... The group was founded at the end of 2013 and has 36 participants from a variety of areas.
13:08:36 <kaz> louay: Introducing the Second Screen Presentation CG
13:08:50 <kaz> (slide2)
13:09:08 <kaz> louay: Current Status
13:09:14 <kaz> (slide3)
13:09:28 <kaz> louay: Second Display for the Web?
13:09:45 <kaz> (slide4)
13:09:54 <kaz> louay: "Second Display" Clarification
13:10:47 <kaz> ... a large screen as TV/projector?
13:10:56 <kaz> (slide5)
13:10:56 <kaz> louay: Use Case: Presentation
13:10:56 <kaz> (slide6)
13:10:56 <kaz> louay: Use Case: Gaming
13:10:59 <kaz> (slide7)
13:11:07 <kaz> louay: Remote Display Technologies
13:11:23 <kaz> ... e.g., Miracast, Airplay, DLNA-based solution and Chromecast
13:11:47 <kaz> ... there are differences between Miracast and Chromecast
13:12:05 <kaz> ... but we want to have one unified API
13:12:10 <kaz> (slide8)
13:12:24 <kaz> (slide9)
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13:12:38 <kaz> (slide11)
13:12:53 <kaz> (slide 12)
13:13:05 <kaz> (slide 13)
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13:13:11 <kaz> louay: API Preview
13:13:51 <kaz> ... (shows example IDL)
13:13:51 <kaz> (slide 14)
13:13:51 <kaz> louay: Presentation API Example
13:13:52 <kaz> ... Phone/Laptop vs. TV/Second Screen
13:13:58 <correii> correii has joined #webtv
13:14:08 <kaz> ... (explains example script)
13:14:37 <kaz> ... communicating commands like "play/pause video"
13:14:54 <kaz> ... similar to Web messaging APIs
13:15:13 <kaz> ... missing close event
13:15:24 <kaz> (slide 15)
13:15:40 <kaz> louay: Presentation API Key Features
13:15:45 <kaz> ... Presentation API
13:15:45 <kaz> (slide 16)
13:15:47 <kaz> louay: Presentation API Demo
13:15:55 <kaz> ... (shows URL)
13:15:56 <kaz> (slide 17)
13:16:28 <kaz> louay: Participate
13:16:28 <kaz> topic: Q&A
13:16:57 <kaz> samsung: examples included two user agents
13:17:01 <kaz> louay: just one agent is possible
13:17:13 <kaz> ... open the Web page with a hidden tab
13:17:25 <kaz> ... like Miracast and Apple TV
13:17:46 <kaz> ... Chromecast is a user agent itself
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13:18:23 <kaz> s/samsung:/simon:/
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13:18:59 <kaz> louay: if googlechrome hosts miracast, it would be automatically detected
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13:19:38 <kaz> ... but the complexity will be move into the browser
13:19:43 <kaz> ... on the browser level
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13:20:34 <kaz> topic: A Flexible Multi-Screen Solution Based on UPnP - Clarke Stevens
13:20:46 <kaz> clarke: from CableLabs
13:20:59 <kaz> ... member consortium of cable companies
13:21:06 <kaz> ... also representing UPnP
13:21:27 <kaz> ... nearing the end of the spec named multi-screen
13:21:35 <kaz> (slide 1: Content)
13:21:43 <kaz> clarke: schedule, etc.
13:21:51 <kaz> (slide 2: Multi-Screen Trends)
13:22:13 <kaz> clarke: several of them are proprietary
13:22:49 <kaz> ... looking for W3C solution
13:23:24 <kaz> ... UPnP Forum members working on an open interface
13:23:24 <kaz> ... CableLabs, Cisco, Intel, LGE, PacketVideo, TP Vision, ZTE
13:23:31 <kaz> ... Samsung as well
13:23:31 <kaz> (slide 3: Goal)
13:23:44 <kaz> clarke: device /service discovery
13:24:12 <kaz> ... description eventing and notification with the UPnP device architecture
13:24:13 <kaz> ... HbbTV uses UPnP
13:24:44 <kaz> ... communication initiated by either end
13:25:11 <kaz> (slide 4: Terms used for Informative Usage)
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13:25:21 <kaz> clarke: clarify terms
13:25:37 <kaz> ... Multi-Screen Service, Main screen device and Companion screen device
13:26:07 <kaz> (slide 5: UPnP Components designed by Multi-Screen ...)
13:26:23 <kaz> (slide 6: Basic Interaction Model)
13:26:39 <kaz> clarke: "screen control point" and "screen device"
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13:27:10 <kaz> (slide 7: Extended Interaction Model)
13:27:22 <kaz> clarke: very flexible model
13:27:57 <kaz> ... TV as a main screen device and tablet as a companion screen device
13:28:51 <kaz> ... but could have individual views on the main screen
13:29:45 <kaz> (slide 8: Services of Multi-Screen DCP)
13:30:24 <kaz> clarke: phase 1: app management, app-to-app communication management, key-press protocol and synchronization
13:30:43 <kaz> ... three protocols certified by UPnP
13:31:01 <kaz> ... synchronization is phase 2
13:31:12 <kaz> (slide 9: UPnP Cloud: Overview)
13:31:31 <kaz> clarke: allows you set up virtual rooms
13:31:41 <kaz> ... e.g., for chat programs
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13:32:23 <kaz> ... anybody from your family can access that room and share communication
13:32:28 <kaz> s/share/share realtime/
13:32:46 <kaz> ... wrapper to a UPnP device
13:33:14 <kaz> (slide 10: UPnP Cloud Interaction (MUC))
13:33:23 <kaz> clarke: (shows a diagram)
13:33:36 <kaz> ... user a creates room (MUC)
13:33:48 <kaz> ... user a invites UCCDs and UCC-CPs
13:33:57 <kaz> ... usr a&B meet and share
13:34:03 <kaz> s/a&B/a&b/
13:34:23 <kaz> (slide 11: Web and Virtual Realizations)
13:34:34 <kaz> clarke: that's it
13:34:55 <kaz> topic: Q&A
13:35:08 <kaz> @@@: how does a video streaming work with the architecture?
13:35:21 <kaz> clarke: just provide your URL
13:35:43 <kaz> ... looking at a possible way for remote access protocol
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13:36:23 <kaz> @@@2: eventing?
13:36:50 <ddavis> s/@@@2/Simon Waller/
13:36:59 <kaz> clarke: you guarantee to leverage UPnP eventing
13:37:30 <kaz> ... depends what you want to do
13:37:40 <kaz> simon: screen devices
13:37:56 <kaz> clarke: if you only communicate with new devices you're building, that's fine
13:38:23 <kaz> ... the network service protocol is also being discussed within W3C
13:38:46 <kaz> ... if you just think about communication between screen and screen, websocket might be enough
13:39:13 <kaz> ... but if you use TV, we might need authentication
13:40:09 <kaz> jc: new screen device type?
13:40:23 <kaz> clarke: new screen device type
13:40:34 <kaz> yosuke: tx
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13:40:56 <kaz> topic: Multiple Screen in China - Mingmin Wang
13:41:29 <kaz> s/Multiple Screen in China/Multuscreen Service in Shanghai/
13:41:46 <kaz> mingmin: from Oriental Cable Network
13:41:58 <kaz> ... second time to attend W3C events
13:42:23 <kaz> (slide1, 2, 3)
13:42:26 <kaz> mingmin: cable network in Shanghai
13:43:09 <kaz> ... over 1M HDTV subscribers and 1.3M digital Pay TV users
13:43:29 <kaz> ... started NGB since 2008
13:43:40 <kaz> (slide 4: NGB - network architecture)
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13:44:04 <kaz> (slide 5: NGB - home access network)
13:44:14 <kaz> (slide 6: Interactve TV service)
13:44:24 <kaz> mingmin: 10M digital stbs
13:44:42 <kaz> s/stbs/STBs/
13:44:58 <kaz> (slide 7: Multiscreen Service Deployment)
13:45:04 <kaz> mingmin: started last year
13:45:21 <kaz> (slide 8: Multiscreen Service Deployment)
13:45:29 <kaz> (slide 9: Multiscreen Service Deployment)
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13:45:43 <kaz> mingmin: 60 SD libe streaming channels
13:45:52 <kaz> ... 1 HD live streaming channels
13:46:05 <kaz> (slide 10: Multiple screen service or application)
13:46:14 <kaz> mingmin: DVB, VOD, SDV, OTT
13:46:27 <kaz> ... are the infrastructure
13:47:01 <kaz> ... Unique content management
13:47:21 <kaz> ... converting metadata
13:47:28 <kaz> ... Unique customer management
13:47:33 <kaz> ... managing IDs
13:47:39 <kaz> ... Unique session management
13:47:46 <kaz> ... session control
13:47:54 <kaz> ... which session comes from which device
13:48:10 <kaz> ... Unique resource management
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13:48:23 <kaz> ... QoS control
13:48:31 <kaz> ... identiry video stream
13:48:36 <kaz> s/identiry/identify/
13:48:57 <kaz> ... Device management system
13:49:05 <kaz> ... Smart search engine plugins
13:49:31 <kaz> (slide 11: Multiscreen Service Deployment)
13:49:39 <kaz> mingmin: typical use case
13:49:53 <kaz> ... video-cloud deployed at cable head-end
13:50:02 <kaz> (slide 12: Multiscreen Service Deployment)
13:50:10 <kaz> mingmin: video cloud
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13:50:28 <kaz> ... XMPP
13:50:39 <kaz> (slide 13: Multiscreen Service Deployment)
13:51:05 <kaz> mingmin: typical application/smart home gateway
13:51:24 <kaz> ... local channels, OTT, internet streaming
13:51:50 <kaz> (slide 14: Multiscreen Service Deployment - Typical application (1) - DVB_OTT+APP)
13:52:23 <kaz> mingmin: VOD and TV shopping
13:52:41 <kaz> ... deployed on many STBs
13:52:51 <kaz> ... online chatting as well
13:53:22 <kaz> (slide 15: Multiscreen Service Deployment - Typical application (2) - OTT+DVB+APP)
13:53:27 <kaz> s/DVB_OTT/DVB+OTT/
13:53:37 <kaz> mingmin: application for cloud TV
13:53:51 <kaz> (slide 16: Multiscreen Service Deployment)
13:54:06 <kaz> mingmin: multi platform
13:54:23 <kaz> ... including iOS and Android
13:54:47 <kaz> ... video streaming, network-based sharing
13:55:21 <kaz> (slide 17: Multiscreen Service Deployment - smart home gateway)
13:55:32 <kaz> (slide 18: Multiscreen Service Deployment)
13:55:45 <kaz> (slide 19: Suggestions)
13:56:04 <kaz> mingmin: which solution would be suitable for OCN
13:56:11 <kaz> s/OCN/OCN?/
13:56:29 <kaz> ... would like a uniq platform
13:56:35 <kaz> s/uniq/unique/
13:56:59 <kaz> ... XMPP, HTML5 or metadata
13:57:27 <kaz> s/or/and
13:57:48 <kaz> ... trying to find the best solution
13:58:23 <kaz> s/OCN/OCN (Oriental Cable Network)/
13:58:23 <kaz> topic: Q&A
13:58:45 <kaz> ph: already deployed but how popular?
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13:59:09 <kaz> mingmin: deployed our services last year
13:59:41 <kaz> ... OTT, mobile operators start with Shanghai
13:59:57 <kaz> s/operators/cable operators/
14:00:08 <kaz> s/mobile/mobile operators/
14:00:23 <kaz> ... STB for free
14:00:35 <kaz> not charging for the content either
14:01:34 <kaz> ... our subscribers are 300 thousand
14:01:59 <kaz> ddavis: video messaging, second screen, OTT
14:02:13 <kaz> mingmin: they use those services lot
14:02:31 <kaz> ... young people don't watch TV
14:02:36 <kaz> ... prefer tablets
14:02:59 <kaz> ... tablet and mobile phone for streaming
14:03:21 <kaz> ... TV broadcasters are keen to keep their own subscribers
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14:03:40 <kaz> ddavis: Fuji TV said using second screen might be troublesome
14:03:51 <kaz> mingmin: not troublesome, very popular
14:04:27 <kaz> topic: ### - Dave Raggett
14:04:27 <kaz> s/###/Second Screen User.../
14:04:41 <kaz> (slide 1: MediaScape)
14:04:43 <kaz> dsr: new EU project
14:05:00 <kaz> ... mixture of technology of W3C and broadcasters
14:05:16 <kaz> (slide 2: MediaScape)
14:05:28 <kaz> dsr: (shows diagram)
14:05:51 <kaz> ... devices- social network-broadcasters
14:05:56 <kaz> (slide 3: Use Case)
14:06:23 <kaz> dsr: John is watching a live sports event on TV
14:06:35 <kaz> ... his phone notifies him to start a complementary news service
14:06:48 <kaz> ... he invites Ann...
14:06:55 <kaz> (slide 4: Requirements)
14:07:36 <kaz> dsr: social connection, associating TV and phone, allowing phone to know what is being shown on TV, ...
14:08:08 <kaz> (slide 5: How does it work?)
14:08:49 <kaz> dsr: conected with WebSocket
14:08:49 <kaz> ... social network server tracks context
14:08:58 <kaz> (slide 6: What's needed?)
14:08:58 <kaz> dsr: service workers
14:08:58 <kaz> ... as an agent to be part of the social network
14:09:09 <kaz> ... websocket
14:09:24 <kaz> ... for asynchronous mesaging
14:09:35 <kaz> s/mesaging/messaging
14:09:37 <kaz> (slide 7: Synchronization)
14:09:58 <kaz> dsr: synchronize user experience across devices
14:10:34 <kaz> ... (demo in the break)
14:10:56 <kaz> ... mobile devices don't preload videos
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14:11:12 <kaz> (slide 8: Local vs Remote Messaging)
14:11:27 <kaz> dsr: local p2p discovery and messaging
14:11:38 <kaz> ... DAP, SysApps, NFC, WebRTC
14:11:46 <kaz> s/p2p/P2P/
14:11:54 <kaz> ... lot of choices
14:12:02 <kaz> ... problem with using local discovery
14:12:27 <kaz> ... server-based approach would be better
14:12:42 <kaz> topic: Q&A
14:12:53 <kaz> dsr: third services
14:12:58 <kaz> s/third/third-party/
14:13:21 <kaz> ... search broadcasters' metadata, screen, etc.
14:13:39 <kaz> @@3: would like to have demo
14:13:59 <kaz> bryan: comparison with other standards?
14:14:04 <kaz> ... any kind of gap analysis?
14:14:23 <kaz> dsr: will do
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14:18:40 <kaz> ... catch me for demo
14:18:40 <kaz> ddavis: note that no food/drink is allowed here in the meeting room
14:18:47 <kaz> ... this evening
14:18:47 <kaz> ... IRT will hosts a Babarian (?) dinner
14:18:47 <kaz> ... before that we'll take a group photo
14:18:51 <kaz> ... if you need a taxi, please talk with the lady at the reception
14:18:51 <kaz> ... next session will start at 4pm
14:18:51 <kaz> (break)
14:18:51 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:18:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
14:20:05 <kaz> s/Babarian (?)/Bavarian/
14:20:08 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:20:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
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14:59:54 <jcverdie> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:59:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-webtv-minutes.html jcverdie
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15:00:27 <kaz> i/Introducing the Second/scribenick: kaz/
15:00:39 <jcverdie> Giuseppe: it's not only a panel, we'd like the audience to interact
15:00:51 <jcverdie> ... the topics are worth discussing with an audience as wide as possible
15:00:59 <jcverdie> (Introduce panelists)
15:01:08 <jcverdie> Jean-Pierre Evain for EBU
15:01:15 <jcverdie> Jon Piesing for HbbTV/OIPF
15:01:17 <Takahiro> Takahiro has joined #webtv
15:01:24 <jcverdie> Kinj Matsumura for IPTV Forum Japan
15:01:32 <jcverdie> UPnP / DLNA : Clarke Stevens
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15:01:38 <jcverdie> W3C : Philip Hoschka
15:01:54 <jcverdie> Short presentation from EBU
15:03:04 <jcverdie> Jean-Pierre Evain: largest association of broadcasters worldwide
15:03:55 <jcverdie> ... production for sports, news
15:04:08 <jcverdie> ... training for people in the field
15:04:25 <jcverdie> ... technical innovation, frequency planning
15:04:46 <jcverdie> ... follow lots of SDO
15:04:51 <kaz> i/Introducing the/yosuke: got many papers on multi-screen, so split into two sessions/
15:05:09 <kaz> i/Introducing the/... not only W3C but also involving other SDOs is important
15:05:28 <kaz>  ... 15 mins for each presentation
15:05:47 <jcverdie> ... Interest in W3C: HTML5 including WAI, annotation, EME, metadata
15:05:57 <kaz> i/Introducing the/... 15 mins for each presentation/
15:06:25 <kaz> i/Introducing the/topic: Enabling Second Display Use Cases on the Web - Louay Bassbouss/
15:06:40 <kaz> i/Introducing the/louay: from Fraunhofer FOKUS/
15:06:44 <jcverdie> ... Some overlaps indentified: Timed text, EBU-TT-D adopted by MPEG-DASH and HbbTV
15:06:52 <jcverdie> ... audio modelling
15:07:03 <jcverdie> ... metadata, bringing semantic web to production
15:07:05 <kaz> i/Introducing the/... present the second screen CG as well/
15:07:22 <kaz> i/Introducing the/(slide 1)/
15:07:26 <jcverdie> ... summary: where's the expertise and who does what?
15:07:27 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:07:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
15:07:39 <jcverdie> HbbTV Presentation
15:08:01 <jcverdie> (battle plans displayed)
15:08:19 <jcverdie> Jon Piesing: this is an illustration of the specification dependencies in HbbTV v2
15:09:05 <jcverdie> (Jon describes most important dependencies listed on the slide)
15:09:31 <jcverdie> slide is visible here: @@put_url_here
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15:10:50 <jcverdie> Jon Piesing: many information come from DVB world which is not global.
15:11:04 <jcverdie> ... ISDB has similar standards but the semantics may vary
15:11:30 <Giles> Giles has joined #webtv
15:12:41 <jcverdie> ... HbbTV is about integration of a pile of stuff done by others, not inventing things
15:13:05 <jcverdie> IPTV Forum Japan presentation from Kinji  Matsumura-san
15:13:30 <jcverdie> (slide show technology overview of HybridCast)
15:13:50 <jcverdie> Kinji: Hybridcast uses HTML5 Specs for App developemnt
15:13:55 <jcverdie> s/opemnt/opment
15:14:08 <jcverdie> ... Extensions for hybrid use
15:15:20 <jcverdie> ... @@@
15:15:30 <jcverdie> UPnP / DLNA introduction by Clarke Stevens
15:15:44 <jcverdie> Clarke: I'm going to assume you have memories of what's been told earlier :)
15:16:20 <jcverdie> ... UPnP and DLNA are not competitors. UPnP is about technology, DLNA is about usage narrowing down technologies options from UPnP
15:16:27 <jcverdie> ... Future of TV is about:
15:16:56 <jcverdie> ... HTML UI: UPnP HTML5 RUI
15:18:16 <jcverdie> ... Discovery using NSD, XHR or WebSockets
15:18:20 <jcverdie> ... includes internet Of Things
15:18:30 <jcverdie> s/inte/Inte
15:19:14 <jcverdie> ... MSE came out of an effort from CableLabs and the Media Pipeline TF
15:19:34 <jcverdie> ... not directly to UPnP stuff but still cable companies in the US
15:19:40 <jcverdie> ... Now DLNA
15:19:55 <jcverdie> ... Recently announces CVP-2 Guidelines
15:21:42 <jcverdie> ... We don't want to add new APIs to HTML5
15:21:48 <AlanB> AlanB has joined #webtv
15:22:06 <jcverdie> ... Broke compatibility with CEA-2014 in order to align with HTML5
15:22:22 <jcverdie> (slide about cloud scenario in CVP-2)
15:22:46 <jcverdie> slide from cable labs are available here: @@cablelabsslides
15:23:20 <jcverdie> Clarke: CVP-2 also handles Live Linear Streaming
15:23:46 <jcverdie> q?
15:24:25 <jcverdie> Giuseppe: @@
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15:24:46 <jcverdie> Clarke: our goal is to have new platform on HTML5
15:25:02 <jcverdie> Kinji : HTML5 is attractive
15:25:09 <jcverdie> q?
15:26:12 <jcverdie> s/attractive/attractive and the only option for us to extend to broadcast
15:26:36 <jcverdie> Jon: strategic reason was to sync w/ Standards to enable web developer to reuse their knowledge including libraries
15:26:55 <jcverdie> ... second reason is people wouldn't develop a specific non HTML5 browser for TV so it was a fait accompli
15:27:20 <jcverdie> Giuseppe: what is the challenge of referencing specs from W3C including HTML5?
15:27:57 <jcverdie> Clarke: very productive to co-work with W3C (NSD, MSE, EME, TTML...)
15:28:30 <jcverdie> Kinji: TV has specific requirements (no windowing, remote controllers)
15:28:39 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #webtv
15:28:41 <jcverdie> ... We add some guidelines about using HTML5 on TV
15:29:04 <jcverdie> Jon Piesing: two set of issues
15:29:30 <jcverdie> ... Organisational, what version do we refer to if it's not a rec?
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15:30:08 <jcverdie> ... how does that impact test & certification if that can change
15:30:40 <jcverdie> ... second set of issues is about functionnalities. when they're not completely there, do you define your own properties ?
15:31:01 <jcverdie> ... you end up with a transition phase with two sets of APIs, one nicely shaped and the other temporary
15:31:15 <jcverdie> JP Evain: Trolling about MHEG5
15:31:58 <jcverdie> Giuseppe: why is the web economy able to handle the fragmentation, and not the tv industry?
15:32:19 <jcverdie> JP Evain: we don't have tv displays only anymore, but dozens of devices with various apps
15:32:34 <jcverdie> ... HTML5 should be finalized soon so we have a version to reference to
15:32:55 <jcverdie> ... But there are still ongoing discussions
15:33:04 <jcverdie> ... But things like timed text are still not sorted
15:33:28 <jcverdie> ... So some platforms have to create their own extensions
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15:33:41 <jcverdie> q?
15:34:14 <jcverdie> Clarke: Before you put something in a TV you used to test it for a long time and have a stable standard
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15:34:24 <jcverdie> ... The web has brought a new world where you update everyday
15:34:27 <jcverdie> ... the TV is not quite there
15:34:43 <jcverdie> JP Evain: feedback from broadcasters is even more important
15:35:35 <jcverdie> Clarke: cable industry now has versioning plans for upgrade and testing
15:36:10 <jcverdie> Steven Waller: there are no commercial model for SW Update
15:36:52 <jcverdie> ... except from giving breath to our call centers by fixing bugs
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15:37:06 <jcverdie> Giuseppe: is this the same problem in the mobile area?
15:37:14 <jcverdie> Steven: I can't say
15:37:32 <jcverdie> Jon: the frequency of android updates on the mobile industry is hectic
15:38:08 <jcverdie> David Singer: my samsung tv regularly wants me to update
15:38:20 <jcverdie> ... But I never pressed yes so who knows
15:38:31 <jcverdie> s/Steven W/Simon W
15:38:59 <jcverdie> @@: @@ ?
15:39:39 <jcverdie> Simon: there are updates for the smart tv side. Broadcasters want us to update to be able to run their up to date apps
15:40:16 <jcverdie> Jon: whichever update you give even for free that's time & money someone oughts to pay for
15:40:25 <jcverdie> ... is this broadcasters, manufacturers, ...
15:41:33 <jcverdie> Giuseppe: some of you mentioned gaps in your presentations, for instance in Video element. When you run into these gaps in your SDO what's the resolution process?
15:42:33 <jcverdie> Clarke: we take some instances back to W3C
15:42:42 <jcverdie> ... W3C kept up with our pace of innovation
15:43:18 <jcverdie> ... Related to Web&TV but also Internet of Things
15:43:35 <jcverdie> Kinji: in IPTV-J we just use existing standards
15:43:55 <jcverdie> ... only extension for local broadcasting requirements
15:44:11 <jcverdie> ... so it wasn't worth bringing back to W3C as it was regional
15:44:27 <jcverdie> ... there might be some common ground however
15:45:15 <jcverdie> Jon: the 1st HbbTV built on top of specs with fine-grained clarifications. We don't want to repeat this
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15:45:49 <jcverdie> ... in v2 we consider W3C specs as they are not trying to clarify anyhow
15:46:12 <jcverdie> ... What you call gap, I call it a feature I need a solution from somewhere even if not w3C
15:46:33 <jcverdie> ... little gaps such as Video Element lacking some properties such as different audio stream
15:46:42 <jcverdie> ... DRM "failure from" description
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15:47:29 <jcverdie> ... look at "hbbtv" in w3C bugzilla for details about what I call "little gaps"
15:48:03 <jcverdie> Giuseppe: if it's a little gap you hand it to W3C, if the feature is simply lacking you look for it elsewhere
15:48:30 <jcverdie> ... At a time you used CEA 2014 now HTML5 would you consider W3C has covered what you call a "big gap"
15:48:46 <jcverdie> Jon: but CEA 2014 made the same mistake we made about clarifying W3C specs
15:49:01 <jcverdie> ... one shouldn't fine-grain clarify other's specs since you don't have publication control
15:49:29 <jcverdie> JP Evain: There are different level, second-screen stuff is close to W3C core business
15:49:44 <jcverdie> ... when you deal with video you are at the fringe
15:49:56 <jcverdie> ... what a broadcaster sees as a video might not be what the W3C calls a video
15:50:16 <jcverdie> ... re: schema.org we worked with BBC for a while
15:50:39 <jcverdie> ... Initial metadata was californian-based geek vision of TV Episode/Series/Season
15:50:49 <jcverdie> ... Took us ages to sort this out
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15:51:49 <jcverdie> Giuseppe: there are success and failure stories, is it related to the method aka becoming member and working from the inside rather than bringing input as outsiders
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15:52:49 <jcverdie> Philipp: the TV Community explained quite well their video element requirements
15:52:55 <jcverdie> ... it was difficult of course
15:53:13 <jcverdie> ... but we are obviously interested in getting TV Requirements in our specs
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15:53:53 <jcverdie> Clarke: disappointed by the testing effort
15:53:57 <jcverdie> ... we supplied some reqs
15:54:35 <jcverdie> ... we created some tests on our own
15:55:10 <jcverdie> Jon: Investment in time and/or money is important
15:55:24 <jcverdie> ... Does what you want will benefit from being global ?
15:56:01 <jcverdie> ... Where are the resources ?
15:56:36 <jcverdie> ... If you can't afford the investment it takes to do this in the W3C process, then what about elsewhere?
15:56:45 <jcverdie> ... This is obviously an investment
15:57:25 <jcverdie> ... Fixing a couple of properties in audio elements vs lobby for a new functionality is a different investment
15:57:41 <jcverdie> ... Unfortunately TV Industry seems not to have that kind of money anymore
15:58:05 <jcverdie> ... Some functionalities would be generic but how many devices have a Tuner?
15:58:51 <jcverdie> .... And if you can't afford to do it in W3C then it doesn't really matter whether W3C is the right place or not
15:59:21 <jcverdie> (giuseppe and jon teasing each other about tuner api)
15:59:30 <jcverdie> (no harm done, everybody's safe so far)
16:00:13 <jcverdie> JP Evain: Jon makes a point.
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16:01:04 <jcverdie> ... I'd like to do things such as Sport ontology in W3C
16:01:36 <jcverdie> ... my dilemma is: I can do my own stuff and I know I'm good enough because I'm facing actual data
16:02:01 <jcverdie> ... But there'll always be someone who will say "I don't care, I'll use something from W3C because it's W3C"
16:02:16 <jcverdie> ... So it's risk mitigation and investment
16:02:25 <ddavis> Scribe: Daniel
16:02:32 <jcverdie> someone-in-the-room: A lot can be done through CG
16:02:47 <ddavis> s/someone-in-the-room/Bryan Sullivan/
16:03:02 <ddavis> Bryan: What of these gaps are the most difficult ones?
16:03:13 <ddavis> ... Delivery of real-time linear content to devices.
16:03:25 <ddavis> ... The access to EPG or metadata.
16:03:48 <ddavis> ... Harmonising access today to third-party integration
16:04:38 <ddavis> Clarke: There's an abstraction layer that would be well-address by W3C. If we can indicate a URL it wouldn't depend on the hardware. That's a good area for integration.
16:04:50 <ddavis> ... Dealing with linear content in general is one of the most critical.
16:05:17 <ddavis> Jon: There's a huge amount to deal with regarding linear content - I don't think W3C can deal with this.
16:05:39 <ddavis> ... So you end up with something not fit for purpose.
16:06:19 <ddavis> ... An abstraction layer that doesn't enable a legacy version to be phased out you just end up with duplication.
16:06:42 <ddavis> ... There is a lot of work on MPEG-DASH to do live TV over the internet.
16:06:51 <ddavis> ... What do you need at W3C to fit with that?
16:07:15 <ddavis> ... You need failure modes that have enough information.
16:08:19 <ddavis> ... But I look at the people participating in MPEG-DASH and they are people who's lives depend on getting live TV to work. It's advanced, lots of work has gone into it.
16:08:58 <ddavis> Mingmin Wang: The topic is aligning standards and what's next.
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16:09:46 <ddavis> ... We are interested in W3C standards because we use HTML. In China, standards are very hybrid so there is competition between video services and cable operators.
16:10:23 <ddavis> .. Do you think it's possible to have a basic profile quickly that focuses on basic things like a video player to create a unique standard that can have mass deployment?
16:10:48 <ddavis> ... It's better to have a good solution as quickly as possible because of fast competition.
16:11:06 <ddavis> ... We attended this workshop to find a solution.
16:11:10 <Alan> i/Scribe: Daniel/scribenick: ddavis/
16:12:00 <ddavis> Jean-Pierre: For more than 30 years we have been living with fantasy standards.
16:12:16 <ddavis> ... If it's a good compromise, it takes time.
16:12:35 <ddavis> s/fantasy/the fantasy of faster/
16:12:50 <ddavis> Jon: The more people you have in the room, the longer it takes.
16:13:12 <ddavis> ... To do it quickly, you need a small group of people and ruthless focus.
16:13:36 <ddavis> ... Then you add more people, more ambition and it takes longer.
16:14:28 <ddavis> @@@: I think EME breaks everyone of Jon's laws.
16:14:56 <ddavis> Jon: I think EME is actually a good example of a fast standard.
16:15:30 <ddavis> Clarke: The Chinese approach seems practical. It's going to be about whether a standards organisation survives if it moves fast enough.
16:16:10 <ddavis> Giuseppe: The last question I have is about testing.
16:16:54 <ddavis> Clarke: If the testing regimen for HTML5 is not ready then we prefer not to use it. The effort to raise money has not really worked. At the end of the day, companies will only use tech they can rely on.
16:17:27 <ddavis> Kinji: Testing is very important. We're happy to use existing test suites. IPTV Forum Japan has a test suite but just for our extensions.
16:18:15 <ddavis> ... Our efforts are still under discussion.
16:18:31 <ddavis> Jon: HbbTV is not interested in duplicating anybody else's work.
16:18:51 <ddavis> ... If there's something usable from W3C, even if it's not perfect, we'd be interested in it.
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16:19:05 <ddavis> ... DLNA seems to have the closest mindset for us.
16:19:29 <ddavis> Giuseppe: The need is still there. Is there anything SDOs can do?
16:19:53 <ddavis> Clarke: Jon probably means that DLNA is similar because tests have to be created at an early stage.
16:21:04 <ddavis> Jean-Pierre: We are developing services using existing web technology such as SOAP and REST. It's just for broadcasting. People don't want to pay for the technology or to be a member.
16:21:52 <ddavis> ... All that we can do is to have some members that participate, doing remote testing. The best we can do is facilitate such self-testing.
16:22:04 <ddavis> Jon: What about TTML testing?
16:22:31 <ddavis> ... Is there somebody who can talk about that?
16:22:47 <ddavis> @@@: I think there is a W3C test suite available since the TTML spec was published.
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16:23:06 <ddavis> ... I'm not sure how up-to-date it is.
16:24:00 <ddavis> Bryan: Coming back to the question of cost. With Test The Web Forward, anybody can participate. Similarly, community groups are free for anyone to create or join - you just need people who know what they're doing.
16:24:15 <ddavis> ... Is there are a possibility that we could drive this through domain-specific efforts?
16:24:41 <ddavis> ... All the SDOs have their HTML5-specific profiles. There could be virtual events that don't cost money - just time.
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16:25:16 <ddavis> Giuseppe: About testing, we see each SDO is spending money on tests. Wouldn't it be better to put that money together?
16:25:57 <ddavis> Clarke: Viable companies will want to test their products before shipping. For CableLabs we contributed tests to DLNA and W3C. Everyone benefits and it's shortsighted if you keep them to yourself.
16:26:15 <ddavis> Jon: I agree, but the tests have to be suitable.
16:26:32 <ddavis> ... Tests that just test the validity of the spec are less useful.
16:27:29 <ddavis> ... Off the top of my head, unofficially, the extra formality to make W3C tests useful for certification is not sufficient. The absence of it is a deal breaker.
16:27:58 <ddavis> Clarke: We contributed tests to WebKit.
16:28:26 <ddavis> ... If we have a more formalised test development infrastructure we could encourage more contributions.
16:29:13 <ddavis> Bryan: Are there people in the SDOs who are able to share that diligence with W3C? They're experts - if W3C could adopt some of those practices we could build something more usable.
16:29:28 <ddavis> Andy Hickman: I think yes.
16:29:37 <ddavis> ... There's clearly an opportunity for mutual benefit.
16:30:03 <ddavis> ... It sounds trivial but I reckon if you look at the voluntary HbbTV effort, less than a quarter of it is writing the tests themselves.
16:30:16 <ddavis> ... The remainder is the stuff that takes the most time.
16:30:33 <ddavis> ... If we're not organised, we get a load of tests but we can't see the woods for the trees.
16:30:54 <ddavis> ... There are 10,000s of good tests out there but working out which are good is non-trivial.
16:31:22 <ddavis> Jon: With MHP we spent millions on creating tests.
16:31:46 <ddavis> ... The time spent in peer-reviewing tests is easily double what we spent on creating the tests in the beginning.
16:31:59 <ddavis> ... But a test suite that hasn't been peer-reviewed is worthless.
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16:32:29 <ddavis> ... You can't have confidence in the results. So any test cost has to be doubled to account for peer-review.
16:32:56 <bryan> Some W3C members are also very well aware of the need for diligence in device certification - for example many Mobile Network Operators certify up to 40 different devices each year through multiple software revisions. Exact tests that are efficiently regression tested are essential, and business as usual.
16:33:36 <ddavis> ... The strangest of example is that we had a test case had to pass three implementations. But you end up building test suites biased towards testing just the easy stuff.
16:33:54 <ddavis> ... I have the upmost respect for people who deal with this daily.
16:34:06 <ddavis> ... We should try to cooperate better on this as an industry.
16:34:28 <ddavis> Clarke: With W3C, we took on a big testing effort that didn't get any funding.
16:34:42 <ddavis> ... Maybe we could build a minimal set of that and at least have something.
16:34:54 <ddavis> Philipp Hoschka: There is an infrastructure in place.
16:35:14 <ddavis> ... Test The Web Forward explains how tests work and is a repository for tests.
16:36:00 <ddavis> ... There needs to be more study. We are working on this and Opera have contributed a lot of tests, as have others.
16:36:32 <bryan> Focusing/phasing the TTWF infrastructure and assets (e.g. tests and assertions) is one of the "plan B" approaches we have proposed to W3C in the absence of sponsorships. All we need to do is form a Web&TV community that applies resources to defining and developing just those priorities/phased resources, rather than just defining what they want.
16:36:41 <ddavis> @@@: We noticed that some people were leaving after getting funding for a spec, if it's not done on time.
16:36:52 <ddavis> ... So funding for the spec includes funding for testing.
16:37:29 <ddavis> Jon: Not going to Recommendation is not a good deterrent when people reluctantly refer to Working Drafts.
16:38:02 <ddavis> Jean-Pierre: Going back to MHP, you have manufacturers who are shipping million TV sets which is different to those making web services.
16:38:54 <ddavis> ddavis: What are some quick wins?
16:39:10 <ddavis> Jean-Pierre: I see more people from the broadcast world coming to W3C than vice versa.
16:39:31 <ddavis> ... I'd like to make it easier for people to join W3C from broadcasting world.
16:39:39 <ddavis> ... Sometimes it's difficult for people to speak up.
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16:40:15 <ddavis> Jon: Being cynical, please look at the Bugzilla entries in my presentation this morning.
16:41:13 <ddavis> ... Low-hanging fruit - one of Giuseppe's points is... it's a lot easier in a W3C spec to say the return value of a method is something.
16:41:47 <ddavis> ... I've seen huge debates where people end up getting shouted down for proposing extensibility methods.
16:42:25 <ddavis> ... When you're trying to make a connection between something that's global with things that are not global, if you can work out how they connect then that would enable more commonality.
16:43:00 <ddavis> ... Not necessarily abstraction layers but where return values are not defined by W3C but left to other implementers.
16:43:38 <ddavis> Giuseppe: Maybe there are places where a return value can be generic, but there could be the opposite too.
16:43:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-webtv-minutes.html Alan
16:44:10 <ddavis> ... Also, it's possible to propose extensions to the spec. We have bugzilla but maybe not enough TV people have submitted bugs.
16:44:43 <ddavis> ... So if you want an additional return value you can submit a bug.
16:45:29 <ddavis> Jon: If I wanted to submit a bug for failure codes, doing that would take a lot of my time. But such small extensions are low-hanging fruit.
16:46:10 <ddavis> Clarke: I think the easiest problem to solve is where you've several dedicated people in a room to fix a problem.
16:46:37 <ddavis> ... With EME, there weren't necessary aligned opinions, but with MSE there were a lot of people who wanted to solve the same problem.
16:47:10 <ddavis> David Singer: At least one of the slides showed a bewildering number of standards, which reference testing.
16:47:45 <ddavis> ... The bodies are slightly different in how they implement specifications. Is that a problem? Should W3C look at that?
16:48:06 <ddavis> Jean-Pierre: Going back to the services using SOAP and REST I mentioned earlier.
16:48:24 <ddavis> ... Somebody suggesting calling them examples rather than reference implementations.
16:48:51 <ddavis> Jon: The two words "reference implementation" cause concern. They could give a particular vendor an advantage.
16:49:05 <ddavis> ... You could have a big discussion about what reference implementation means.
16:49:27 <ddavis> ... It's such a touchy subject about what benefits they give.
16:49:47 <ddavis> Clarke: I think you have to look at each organization. There's also operability testing.
16:50:29 <ddavis> @@@: To give an idea about the level of thinking MPEG had, yes, a reference implementation is a very powerful tool.
16:50:50 <ddavis> ... But if we find an ambiguity we have to export it as soon as possible.
16:50:58 <jcverdie> s/@@@: To give/JC Dufour: To give
16:51:20 <ddavis> ... Yes, the company selected gets an advantage but it  has to give the software away for free for conforming.
16:53:19 <jcverdie> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:53:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-webtv-minutes.html jcverdie
16:54:28 <jcverdie> anyone has an idea why the minutes did not take the last session? (the IRC logs did however)
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17:33:52 <irt_hall> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:33:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-webtv-minutes.html irt_hall
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