IRC log of eo on 2014-03-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:30:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
13:30:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/07-eo-irc
13:30:04 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:30:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eo
13:30:06 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3694
13:30:06 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start now
13:30:07 [trackbot]
Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
13:30:07 [trackbot]
Date: 07 March 2014
13:30:30 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:30:30 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has not yet started, shawn
13:30:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, Bim, yatil, trackbot
13:30:54 [shawn]
zakim, this is 3694
13:30:54 [Zakim]
ok, shawn; that matches WAI_EOWG()8:30AM
13:30:56 [Sylvie]
Sylvie has joined #eo
13:30:59 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:30:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P1, Shawn
13:31:23 [shawn]
zakim, P1 is Bim
13:31:23 [Zakim]
sorry, shawn, I do not recognize a party named 'P1'
13:31:28 [shawn]
zakim, ??P1 is Bim
13:31:28 [Zakim]
+Bim; got it
13:32:11 [Zakim]
+PaulSchantz
13:32:16 [paulschantz]
paulschantz has joined #eo
13:32:24 [yatil]
zakim, call EricE-Skype
13:32:25 [Zakim]
ok, yatil; the call is being made
13:32:25 [Zakim]
+EricE
13:32:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.797.aaaa
13:32:41 [yatil]
zakim, nick yatil is EricE
13:32:41 [Zakim]
ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE
13:32:43 [yatil]
zakim, mute me
13:32:44 [Zakim]
EricE should now be muted
13:33:06 [Zakim]
+Sylvie_Duchateau
13:33:19 [Sylvie]
zakim, mute me
13:33:19 [Zakim]
Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
13:34:25 [Zakim]
+ +44.137.383.aabb
13:34:26 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:34:26 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:34:33 [shawn]
zakim, aaaa is Sharron
13:34:34 [Zakim]
+Sharron; got it
13:35:18 [shawn]
zakim, aabb is Liam
13:35:18 [Zakim]
+Liam; got it
13:35:47 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:35:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bim (muted), Shawn, PaulSchantz, EricE (muted), Sharron, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Liam
13:36:26 [shawn]
scribe: Paul
13:36:37 [shawn]
scribenick:PaulSchantz
13:36:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.731.aacc
13:36:59 [shawn]
zakim, aacc is Jan
13:36:59 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
13:37:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.562.256.aadd
13:37:23 [Zakim]
+Howard
13:37:27 [Bim]
zakim, unmute me
13:37:27 [Zakim]
Bim should no longer be muted
13:37:35 [shawn]
zakim, aadd is Wayne
13:37:35 [Zakim]
+Wayne; got it
13:37:51 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:37:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bim, Shawn, PaulSchantz, EricE (muted), Sharron, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Liam, Jan, Wayne, Howard
13:38:17 [yatil]
ack me
13:38:26 [paulschantz]
Bim: introduction
13:38:36 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:38:36 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:38:43 [paulschantz]
Eric: Introduction
13:39:03 [yatil]
zakim, mute me
13:39:03 [Zakim]
EricE should now be muted
13:39:16 [paulschantz]
Jan: Introduction
13:40:02 [paulschantz]
Paul: Introuction
13:40:09 [paulschantz]
Howard: Introduction
13:40:53 [paulschantz]
Liam: Introduction
13:41:26 [paulschantz]
Topic: Images tutorial
13:41:30 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/
13:41:54 [shawn]
open issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorials#Feedback_on_4_March_version
13:42:08 [LiamM]
LiamM has joined #eo
13:42:08 [yatil]
ack me
13:42:29 [LiamM]
zakim, who is on the call?
13:42:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bim (muted), Shawn, PaulSchantz, EricE, Sharron, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Liam, Jan, Wayne, Howard
13:42:39 [Howard_]
Howard_ has joined #eo
13:42:54 [paulschantz]
Eric: thanks to Bim for great feedback
13:43:10 [Howard_]
zakim, mute me
13:43:10 [Zakim]
sorry, Howard_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:43:45 [Howard_]
zakim, Howard_ is Howard
13:43:45 [Zakim]
sorry, Howard_, I do not recognize a party named 'Howard_'
13:43:46 [paulschantz]
Eric: bottlecap image - are there any copyright issues with using this image?
13:43:50 [yatil]
-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/informative/#image-conveying-succinct-information
13:43:54 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:43:54 [Zakim]
Bim was already muted, Bim
13:44:15 [Howard_]
zakim, mute Howard
13:44:15 [Zakim]
Howard should now be muted
13:44:37 [Howard_]
zakim, Howard is Howard_
13:44:37 [Zakim]
+Howard_; got it
13:45:02 [paulschantz]
Eric: we need an image that matches the alt text
13:46:38 [paulschantz]
Shawn: we'll check on the copyright off-line
13:46:49 [LiamM]
Google says re photos of trademarked or copyrighted works: http://www.danheller.com/model-release-copyrights.html
13:48:10 [Jan]
Jan has joined #eo
13:48:33 [paulschantz]
Liam: the Google article indicates that we're probably fine
13:48:57 [yatil]
-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/textual/#alternative-approach
13:49:03 [LiamM]
q+ to ask about autogenerated complex images when appropriate
13:49:28 [paulschantz]
Eric: I added CSS equivalent to an image (your access to the city)
13:50:32 [paulschantz]
Eric: we don't display vendor prefixes, should we describe those?
13:51:17 [paulschantz]
Shawn: can you say more about this, Eric?
13:53:07 [paulschantz]
Eric: vendor prefixes in CSS transforms are code that indicate which vendor's browser that code works in. Do we need to have more details about that?
13:54:20 [paulschantz]
Shawn: can we change the example so that the vendor prefix descriptions are not necessary? We might be able to avoid the whole question...
13:54:51 [paulschantz]
Eric: I think it's important to show that you can use the new tools to make your site more attractive AND accessible
13:55:05 [paulschantz]
Shawn: can we provide a link to additional resources?
13:55:12 [paulschantz]
Eric: yes, we can do that
13:55:39 [paulschantz]
Eric: CSS spec is good for that
13:55:40 [Sharron]
Sharron has joined #eo
13:55:45 [paulschantz]
Shawn: let's link to that then
13:55:52 [yatil]
-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/textual/#code-snippet-for-math-ml
13:56:25 [paulschantz]
Eric: MathML does not seem to work in any browsers at the moment
13:56:40 [paulschantz]
Shawn: we should talk to the MathML experts for their perspective on this
13:57:05 [paulschantz]
Wayne: actually we do
13:57:35 [paulschantz]
Shawn: Eric and Wayne please follow up on this regarding practical examples we can use
13:58:07 [LiamM]
Browser support chart: http://caniuse.com/mathml
13:58:15 [paulschantz]
Wayne: I'll know a lot more about this in a month
13:59:23 [LiamM]
Also see http://www.mathjax.org/demos/mathml-samples/
13:59:25 [paulschantz]
Wayne: I'll be up-to-speed in about a month, especially after CSUN conference
14:00:36 [Zakim]
-Sharron
14:00:45 [Sharron]
scribe: Sharron
14:00:45 [shawn]
scribe:Jan
14:01:20 [shawn]
ack l
14:01:20 [Zakim]
LiamM, you wanted to ask about autogenerated complex images when appropriate
14:01:32 [Zakim]
+Sharron
14:02:00 [LiamM]
http://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/7607999
14:02:04 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/tutorials/images/complex/
14:02:26 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #eo
14:02:31 [Jan]
Liam: Interactive chart that shows how various dependency fit together
14:03:18 [Jan]
...how do we address these kinds of complicated data?
14:03:28 [Jan]
Wayne: What about the ARIA grid option?
14:03:42 [Jan]
Liam: Can you do multiple arrays & even if you do, is it useful?
14:03:59 [Jan]
Eric: That is going to need a lot of testing - such examples are really complicated
14:04:13 [Jan]
... with ARIA, you still have to break them down so that they are not too complicated
14:04:50 [Jan]
Liam: this is probably out of scope of this tutorial, but we should still probably speak to someone about this.
14:05:01 [Jan]
Wayne: A table is actually a three-dimensional graph
14:05:26 [Jan]
... four dimensions is pretty hard
14:05:38 [Jan]
Liam: unless you reduce them down to three
14:07:02 [paulschantz]
scribe: Paul
14:07:08 [paulschantz]
scribenick: Paul
14:07:22 [shawn]
scribenick:paulschantz
14:07:23 [Jan]
Shawn: We don't really have an answer for this right now, but we might want to put it in later after we have explored this further. Liam - you may want to present this to the WAI interest group and then once there's a solution, we can discuss implementing it in the tutorial.
14:08:55 [paulschantz]
Eric: I'd really like to collect advanced ARIA examples with respect to complex images
14:09:34 [paulschantz]
Shawn: I think it's best to go directly to the ARIA folks or the recent WCAG threads
14:10:00 [paulschantz]
Eric: will do
14:11:03 [paulschantz]
Shawn: I don't think people saw my final comments...I think adding the text adds visual complexity and we probably should not include this info.
14:11:16 [paulschantz]
Wayne: would this tutorial make more sense with a different style sheet?
14:11:21 [paulschantz]
Shawn: try it :-)
14:11:41 [shawn]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorials#Drafts_in_place_and_announcements_March_2014
14:11:50 [paulschantz]
Shawn: next point is putting draft in place and making announcement in March
14:12:37 [paulschantz]
Shawn: we'd like to have tutorials draft ready in time for CSUN (keeping "draft" on it),
14:12:43 [Howard_]
+1
14:12:52 [paulschantz]
Shawn: can I get plus ones on that from the group?
14:12:54 [paulschantz]
+1
14:13:13 [yatil]
zakim, mute me
14:13:13 [Zakim]
EricE should now be muted
14:13:16 [paulschantz]
Shawn: do we announce these as early drafts before CSUN?
14:13:57 [paulschantz]
Sharron: no, but fine to talk about it. Maybe we should think about it as a "soft launch"
14:15:18 [paulschantz]
Shawn: what if we mention this is something that we're working on? It could generate excitement around the work and help crowdsource some help.
14:15:59 [LiamM]
LiamM has joined #eo
14:17:19 [yatil]
q+ to note that I’ve added the other tutorials, also that it is a more living document
14:17:22 [paulschantz]
Sharron: that's a good point. The items we have are solid, but there are still a number of unresolved details we really ought to finish.
14:18:09 [paulschantz]
Wayne: I understand what you're all getting at now. What about a compromise? This isn't vaporware...getting opinions would be good
14:18:44 [shawn]
ack yatil
14:18:51 [shawn]
ack e
14:18:51 [LiamM]
+1
14:18:52 [Zakim]
EricE, you wanted to note that I’ve added the other tutorials, also that it is a more living document
14:18:56 [paulschantz]
Wayne: this is not an empty announcement; even our draft document is really solid
14:19:18 [shawn]
in-progress
14:20:14 [paulschantz]
Eric: I think this is more of a "living document" and we should leverage github for developer comments
14:20:23 [yatil]
zakim, mute me
14:20:23 [Zakim]
EricE should now be muted
14:21:19 [paulschantz]
Paul: having it in github is likely to garner more developer interest
14:21:25 [Sharron]
OK with announcing as work in progress
14:21:35 [paulschantz]
Shawn: are we comfortable announcing this as work in progress?
14:21:38 [Bim]
+1
14:21:44 [yatil]
+1
14:21:45 [Wayne]
+1
14:21:47 [paulschantz]
+1
14:21:50 [Howard_]
+1
14:21:51 [paulschantz]
Jan: +1
14:21:53 [Sylvie]
+1
14:22:16 [paulschantz]
Shawn: thanks for that!
14:22:22 [paulschantz]
Topic: Easy Checks
14:22:22 [LiamM]
+1
14:22:37 [shawn]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks#Move_updates_to_main_public_page_March_2014
14:22:42 [yatil]
ack me
14:23:02 [Howard_]
I'm there
14:23:09 [yatil]
zakim, mute me
14:23:09 [Zakim]
EricE should now be muted
14:23:28 [Howard_]
zakim, ack me
14:23:28 [Zakim]
unmuting Howard_
14:23:29 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:24:48 [paulschantz]
Shawn: are people ok with moving illustrations to main public Easy Checks page?
14:25:52 [paulschantz]
Wayne: is the expand all sections/collapse all sections a part of this? Contrast isn't great
14:26:01 [paulschantz]
Shawn: no, that's part of the general UI questions
14:26:23 [Howard_]
zakim, mute me
14:26:23 [Zakim]
Howard_ should now be muted
14:26:30 [yatil]
+1
14:26:34 [Howard_]
+1
14:26:42 [Sharron]
+1
14:26:46 [paulschantz]
+1
14:26:47 [Bim]
+1 to illustrations to main
14:26:48 [Wayne]
+1
14:26:50 [paulschantz]
Jan: +1
14:27:36 [Bim]
+1 to announcement
14:27:37 [paulschantz]
Shawn: should we make an announcement that we have an updated draft of Easy Checks?
14:27:39 [Howard_]
zakim, ack me
14:27:39 [Zakim]
unmuting Howard_
14:27:40 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:28:33 [paulschantz]
Howard: reads comments from EO member in wiki
14:28:46 [Howard_]
zakim, mute me
14:28:46 [Zakim]
Howard_ should now be muted
14:29:02 [paulschantz]
Shawn: any other thoughts on making an announcement?
14:29:35 [paulschantz]
Topic: ATAG Promotion
14:29:56 [paulschantz]
Shawn: Sharron, Paul and others have been working on this.
14:30:35 [paulschantz]
Sharron: ATAG promotion page has all the information about promotional ideas we've been working on
14:31:02 [paulschantz]
Sharron: Paul said Wayne's idea of haikus was actually pretty good
14:31:07 [Sharron]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Outreach_for_ATAG_2.0#CSUN_2014
14:31:11 [paulschantz]
Sharron: I've ordered buttons to hand out on the floor
14:31:35 [paulschantz]
Sharron: we have cards too with information about how people can get involved either via testing or implementation
14:32:13 [Jan]
Jan has joined #eo
14:33:10 [paulschantz]
Sharron: Judy said we needed something about the date on the cards. In the future, the cards may have less relevance
14:33:37 [paulschantz]
Sharron: Eric suggested something about shortening the links, are there any official ones that W3C uses?
14:33:56 [paulschantz]
Shawn: I can direct you to the right person...
14:34:07 [Sharron]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Outreach_for_ATAG_2.0#Help_ATAG2.0_Progress_to_Final_Recommendation
14:34:32 [paulschantz]
Sharron: we want to add a paragraph summarizing our progress
14:36:04 [paulschantz]
Sharron: maybe we should move progress notes to the top of the page to spur interest / involvement?
14:37:50 [paulschantz]
Shawn: does EO have any reactions to this material? Suggestions?
14:38:18 [paulschantz]
Jan: my division in Pearson is interested in helping with this effort at CSUN
14:38:25 [paulschantz]
Sharron: great!
14:38:30 [shawn]
q+ to ask non-at vendors
14:39:27 [Bim]
I like the Business Card text
14:39:36 [paulschantz]
Shawn: what would you think if you received this card at the conference?
14:39:36 [shawn]
ack me
14:39:36 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to ask non-at vendors
14:41:22 [paulschantz]
Shawn: would addition of non-at vendor text in these materials be helpful or not?
14:41:38 [paulschantz]
Paul: I think implementation and testing messages are enough
14:41:45 [Sharron]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Outreach_for_ATAG_2.0#Consider_creation_of_new_support_material
14:42:05 [Howard_]
zakim, ack me
14:42:05 [Zakim]
unmuting Howard_
14:42:06 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:42:20 [paulschantz]
Wayne: we'll be handing these out, so we can talk about these other details in-person when we hand them out
14:42:37 [paulschantz]
Shawn: Sharron, Paul, and Wayne can you work on the elevator pitch?
14:43:43 [paulschantz]
Sharron: we can do this during our Wednesday call
14:43:45 [Howard_]
zakim, mute me
14:43:45 [Zakim]
Howard_ should now be muted
14:43:47 [Sharron]
Sharron: Action to send invite for Wednesday afternoon call
14:44:40 [paulschantz]
Sharron: a braille version will be available at the Knowbility table
14:45:26 [paulschantz]
Shawn: when do you need card text finalized?
14:45:54 [paulschantz]
Sharron: we can get the cards done quickly...maybe a week before we leave? The braille is the harder part.
14:46:57 [paulschantz]
Shawn: it would be helpful if Jean could look at this before going to print...
14:47:42 [paulschantz]
Shawn: thanks for your help Sharron, Paul and Wayne!
14:47:48 [paulschantz]
Topic: CSUN Brunch Location
14:48:50 [paulschantz]
Shawn: we're meeting at the Solimar Hotel. It's a walk, but a long walk. Jan may be getting a van and I'll have a car.
14:49:08 [paulschantz]
Jan: I'm getting a van
14:49:44 [paulschantz]
Wayne: I have a friend who knows great places to eat in downtown SD. Will check on that.
14:50:28 [paulschantz]
Shawn: we will have about 8 people
14:50:33 [paulschantz]
Topic: Action Reminders
14:50:48 [shawn]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Action_Items
14:51:05 [paulschantz]
Shawn: review of how EO is managing / tracking projects and who is doing what
14:51:50 [shawn]
Everyone - You need to record done (or abstain) for all "Everyone" actions. You do *not* need to be picky and comment on every point -- you can put something like, "OK either way" or "no opinion" or such.
14:52:17 [paulschantz]
Shawn: if there's something you committed to do, your name is attached to it. For some things, everyone needs to comment
14:52:45 [shawn]
Anyone - You are encouraged to do these, but not required.
14:53:04 [paulschantz]
Shawn: any suggestions on making this work better?
14:53:45 [paulschantz]
Shawn: each week, be sure to search for your name and those items marked "anyone" and "everyone"
14:54:14 [paulschantz]
Sharron: sometimes it's a little confusing with all the links and sections. It's a bit of a labyrinth at times
14:54:48 [paulschantz]
Wayne: I agree it's a little difficult to wade through at times
14:56:13 [paulschantz]
Shawn: don't let the wiki be a hindrance to commenting! Send comments by e-mail if that's your preferred mode of communicating.
14:56:35 [shawn]
Sharron: we agreed it's OK to send by e-mail
14:57:03 [paulschantz]
Topic: Easy Checks Usability Testing
14:57:52 [shawn]
"piblished draft" http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/preliminary
14:58:10 [shawn]
EOWG draft with in-progress updates http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/checks
14:59:10 [shawn]
UT https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks#Usability_Testing
14:59:13 [paulschantz]
Shawn: Liam, would be great to have your input on usability. We plan to do some usability testing at CSUN conference
15:00:10 [paulschantz]
Shawn: need everyone to go back and look through Easy Checks...we're really close to calling this project "done"
15:02:14 [shawn]
s/ your input on usability. / your input. /
15:02:26 [paulschantz]
Sharron: we'll be doing some usability testing at the Knowbility table at the CSUN conference and taking notes. Bring a laptop and go through it with attendees.
15:03:47 [Zakim]
-Sharron
15:03:49 [paulschantz]
Shawn: we have some things we want to test: illustrations, definitions of markup, page titles (less important). I'll prioritize a list.
15:04:18 [paulschantz]
Shawn: please spend some time with testing Easy Checks prior to CSUN!
15:04:20 [Zakim]
+Sharron
15:05:17 [Howard_]
zakim, ack me
15:05:17 [Zakim]
unmuting Howard_
15:05:18 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
15:06:42 [Sharron]
Sharron has joined #eo
15:07:14 [paulschantz]
Wayne: it may be helpful to have a pared-down version of Easy Checks that just shows "how you do it," without all the additional explanations
15:07:58 [paulschantz]
Shawn: please send an e-mail to the EO list. Making the explanations collapsible is a possible option that's easy to implement
15:09:28 [paulschantz]
Howard: our disabilities department might be able to provide useful feedback
15:09:32 [Howard_]
zakim, mute me
15:09:32 [Zakim]
Howard_ should now be muted
15:09:59 [paulschantz]
Topic: EOWG meeting times next three weeks
15:10:26 [paulschantz]
Shawn: meeting times will be one hour different starting next week due to US daylight savings time change
15:10:51 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Friday%207%20March%20teleconference
15:10:53 [paulschantz]
Shawn: any other topics for now?
15:11:00 [Bim]
Regrets from me for next week
15:11:19 [Howard_]
zakim, unmute me
15:11:19 [Zakim]
Howard_ should no longer be muted
15:11:20 [yatil]
ack me
15:11:25 [Zakim]
-Howard_
15:11:27 [Zakim]
-Liam
15:11:30 [Zakim]
-Bim
15:11:32 [Zakim]
-Sylvie_Duchateau
15:11:32 [yatil]
zakim, drop me
15:11:32 [Zakim]
EricE is being disconnected
15:11:33 [Zakim]
-EricE
15:11:40 [Zakim]
-Wayne
15:12:07 [Zakim]
-Sharron
15:12:14 [Sharron]
Sharron has left #eo
15:12:55 [paulschantz]
Regrets: Anthony, Andrew, Shadi, Vicki
15:13:02 [shawn]
Regrets+ Anna Belle
15:13:14 [shawn]
Regrets+ Anna Belle
15:14:08 [shawn]
Chair: Shawn
15:14:32 [paulschantz]
trackbot, end meeting
15:14:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:14:32 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Shawn, Bim, PaulSchantz, EricE, +1.512.797.aaaa, Sylvie_Duchateau, +44.137.383.aabb, Sharron, Liam, +1.512.731.aacc, Jan, +1.562.256.aadd,
15:14:35 [Zakim]
... Wayne, Howard_
15:14:40 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:14:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/07-eo-minutes.html trackbot
15:14:41 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:14:41 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items