12:24:32 RRSAgent has joined #csvw 12:24:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/26-csvw-irc 12:24:34 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:24:34 Zakim has joined #csvw 12:24:36 Zakim, this will be CSVW 12:24:36 ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 36 minutes 12:24:37 Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference 12:24:37 Date: 26 February 2014 12:25:46 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/etPan.530cc144.625558ec.139d@jenit.local 12:30:48 jumbrich has joined #csvw 12:51:48 jtandy has joined #csvw 12:54:08 DavideC has joined #csvw 12:54:29 Mathew_Thomas has joined #csvw 12:54:39 DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started 12:54:46 +??P0 12:55:01 -??P0 12:55:03 DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended 12:55:03 Attendees were 12:56:02 DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started 12:56:09 + +1.937.207.aaaa 12:56:32 JeniT has joined #csvw 12:56:47 jtandy has joined #csvw 12:57:21 +??P2 12:57:23 timfinin has joined #csvw 12:57:39 zakim, ??P2 may be jumbrich 12:57:39 +jumbrich?; got it 12:57:41 +ericstephan 12:57:47 stasinos has joined #csvw 12:57:49 EricStephan has joined #csvw 12:58:19 +??P5 12:58:32 zakim, ??P5 is me 12:58:32 +DavideC; got it 12:59:29 zakim, code? 12:59:29 the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan 12:59:32 + +1.410.461.aabb 12:59:48 +[IPcaller] 12:59:53 +[IPcaller] 12:59:58 zakim, IPcaller is me 12:59:58 +stasinos; got it 13:00:06 +ivan 13:00:15 zakim, mute me 13:00:15 stasinos should now be muted 13:00:18 zakim, who is here? 13:00:18 On the phone I see +1.937.207.aaaa, jumbrich? (muted), ericstephan, DavideC, +1.410.461.aabb, JeniT, stasinos (muted), ivan 13:00:21 On IRC I see EricStephan, stasinos, timfinin, jtandy, JeniT, Mathew_Thomas, DavideC, jumbrich, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, gkellogg, fresco_, trackbot 13:00:24 hi ... i'm getting passcode not valid for the call - it's 2789 yes 13:00:58 +[Ugent] 13:01:04 zakim, scribe is me 13:01:04 sorry, stasinos, I do not recognize a party named 'scribe' 13:01:10 +??P14 13:01:15 zakim, scribenik is me 13:01:15 sorry, stasinos, I do not recognize a party named 'scribenik' 13:01:25 + +1.734.276.aacc 13:01:29 +[IPcaller] 13:01:42 AndyS1 has joined #csvw 13:01:51 +[IPcaller.a] 13:01:53 mielvds has joined #csvw 13:01:54 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:01:54 On the phone I see Mathew_Thomas, jumbrich? (muted), ericstephan, DavideC, +1.410.461.aabb, JeniT, stasinos (muted), ivan, [Ugent], ??P14, +1.734.276.aacc, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a] 13:02:03 zakim, help me tell zakim i am sxribing 13:02:03 Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help. 13:02:04 zakim, ipcaller is me 13:02:06 Some of the commands I know are: 13:02:06 xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx 13:02:06 if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted 13:02:06 xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx 13:02:07 I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx 13:02:07 xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group 13:02:07 xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx 13:02:07 who's here? - lists the participants on the phone 13:02:08 who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted 13:02:08 mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#) 13:02:08 unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61# 13:02:08 is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present 13:02:08 list conferences - reports the active conferences 13:02:10 this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx 13:02:10 excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel 13:02:10 I last learned something new on $Date: 2013-03-03 19:18:47 $ 13:02:10 +AndyS1; got it 13:02:12 I'm on the phone 13:02:20 that's me! 13:02:24 yes 13:02:27 Scribe: Stasinos 13:02:32 phew! thanks Jeni! 13:02:32 ScribeNick: stasinos 13:02:36 zakim, aabb is timfinin 13:02:36 +timfinin; got it 13:02:42 zakim, who is here? 13:02:42 On the phone I see Mathew_Thomas, jumbrich? (muted), ericstephan, DavideC, timfinin, JeniT, stasinos (muted), ivan, [Ugent], ??P14, +1.734.276.aacc, AndyS1, fresco_ 13:02:45 On IRC I see mielvds, AndyS1, EricStephan, stasinos, timfinin, jtandy, JeniT, Mathew_Thomas, DavideC, jumbrich, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, gkellogg, fresco_, trackbot 13:02:45 chrismetcalf has joined #csvw 13:03:21 zakim, aacc is chrismetcalf 13:03:21 +chrismetcalf; got it 13:03:53 + +44.777.586.aadd 13:03:57 zakim, ugent is me 13:03:57 +andimou; got it 13:04:04 zakim, aadd is me 13:04:04 +jtandy; got it 13:04:05 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:04:07 Zakim, this will be CSVW 13:04:07 ok, trackbot, I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM already started 13:04:08 Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference 13:04:08 Date: 26 February 2014 13:04:18 Chair: Jeni 13:04:25 Scribe: Stasinos 13:04:29 ScribeNick: stasinos 13:04:36 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-02-26 13:05:09 http://www.w3.org/2014/02/19-csvw-minutes.html 13:05:19 Jeni: approve previous meeting recond 13:05:31 + +1.443.650.aaee 13:05:41 +1 13:06:22 yakovsh has joined #csvw 13:06:25 No objects were voiced 13:06:43 +??P22 13:07:07 lots of echo 13:07:18 zakim, who is making noise? 13:07:19 zakim, who is noisy? 13:07:30 AxelPolleres has joined #csvw 13:07:31 AndyS1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: JeniT (71%), ivan (34%), ??P22 (19%) 13:07:36 zakim, mute me 13:07:36 ivan should now be muted 13:07:40 ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: JeniT (52%), ivan (4%) 13:07:49 sorry, that was me, I guess. hope it's gone now 13:08:01 jeni: starting with scoping and general approach 13:08:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Feb/0134.html 13:08:31 jeni: do we need to talk about all CSV and textual tabular data 13:08:46 Jeni: or do we say "this how to publish CSV" 13:09:07 Jeni: map all CSV and textual tabular data to a data model 13:09:30 +1 13:09:34 Good summary! +1 13:09:34 +1 to the approach 13:09:37 + +1.781.620.aaff 13:09:39 q+ 13:09:46 +1 13:09:46 q- 13:09:48 ack jtandy 13:10:06 jtandy: focus on text tables 13:10:16 rsingh2 has joined #csvw 13:10:26 jtandy: not excel, rdb, netCDF or anything else in their native formats 13:10:50 jeni: maybe dumps 13:11:26 You should be able to up-convert from dumps into those native formats though 13:11:41 jeni: need a specification for parsing tabular data into the data model 13:11:56 q+ 13:11:59 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:11:59 On the phone I see Mathew_Thomas, jumbrich? (muted), ericstephan, DavideC, timfinin (muted), JeniT, stasinos (muted), ivan (muted), andimou (muted), ??P14, chrismetcalf, AndyS1, 13:12:02 ... fresco_, jtandy, +1.443.650.aaee, ??P22, +1.781.620.aaff 13:12:04 ack stasinos 13:12:44 -jumbrich? 13:13:07 stasinos: are we trying to specify what a parser should be able to parse, and what the output is? 13:13:20 ... or the metadata that a more generic engine needs in order to parse a given piece of data 13:13:31 ... eg what's the delimiter 13:13:48 q+ 13:13:54 ack fresco_ 13:13:57 +??P2 13:14:11 zakim, ??P2 is jumbrich 13:14:11 +jumbrich; got it 13:14:13 fresco_: are you talking about the stuff that is specified in the SDF? 13:14:24 what I am saying is: are we going to specify one particular data format 13:14:27 stasinos: if the first row is a header row or not, that kind of thing 13:15:14 jeni: how much configuration is needed and how much should be std-ized 13:15:47 jeni: explicitly specifying or having algorithms to guess 13:16:10 sorry, I didn't catch was was just said 13:16:23 can the speaker please ty pe a few words? 13:16:25 q+ to ask if SDF is our initial starting point (yes?) 13:16:27 https://github.com/theodi/csv-validation-research 13:16:45 i will try to summarise the parameters that existing parsers (in various languages) use 13:16:46 ack AndyS1 13:17:12 andy: is this doc the starting point? 13:17:26 e.g. delimiters, which rows/columns are fixed/headers, enclosure character, etc 13:17:36 jeni: suggests not a format, but what is there 13:17:41 zakim, +1.443.650.aaee is really me 13:17:41 +yakovsh; got it 13:17:52 jeni: use as starting point for what can be parameterized 13:18:01 q? 13:18:06 ack AndyS 13:18:06 AndyS, you wanted to ask if SDF is our initial starting point (yes?) 13:18:22 zakim, mute me 13:18:22 stasinos should now be muted 13:18:48 andy: about what features exactly are needed 13:19:16 JeniT: yes, that would be the next step - to list the features required by the use cases that existing parsers don't handle 13:19:17 jeni: base on requirements from use cases documents 13:19:35 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Feb/0159.html 13:19:48 jeni: moving on to definition of tabular data 13:20:07 q+ 13:20:10 q+ 13:20:17 jeni: exact meaning of "tabular" 13:20:27 ack fresco_ 13:20:47 -fresco_ 13:20:51 fresco asks how free a definition we are after 13:21:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Feb/0161.html 13:21:09 +q 13:21:13 ack jtandy 13:21:14 jeni: should have columns of items with consistent meaning 13:21:17 +1 for JeniT’s definition 13:21:31 jtandy: each row is about 1 thing 13:21:44 jtandy: columns with uniform meaning 13:21:48 -??P22 13:21:50 +[IPcaller] 13:21:56 jtandy: and a regular number of columns 13:22:57 jtandy: "regular" is explained in reference to the example in Jeni's email. Some items have sub-sructure 13:22:59 ok, so tabular implies data with columns, to differentiate it from a line-oriented format 13:23:31 jeni: prefers fixed 13:23:38 q? 13:23:38 jeni: prefers fixed number of columns 13:23:42 ack EricStephan 13:23:45 +??P22 13:23:50 Zakim, P22 is me 13:23:50 sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not recognize a party named 'P22' 13:23:58 EricStephan: each column has a heading 13:24:23 EricStephan: column header is metadata 13:24:35 Zakim, ??P22 is me 13:24:35 +AxelPolleres; got it 13:24:42 EricStephan: it would be good to have more than header names 13:24:43 zaikem, mute me 13:24:44 [request for example? (ptr?)] 13:25:36 jeni: header, column names, and everything under it is data 13:26:15 http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/pub/data/weather/uk/climate/stationdata/chivenordata.txt 13:27:02 +1 to tabular data can be part of a file 13:27:11 Thank you for the example 13:27:21 This would be a good example a fixed-width tabular file 13:27:26 q+ 13:27:32 ack jtandy 13:27:45 jtandy: sub-structure inside fields 13:27:59 +q 13:28:04 ack yakovsh 13:28:05 q+ 13:28:08 jtandy: do we recommend it? deal with it? 13:28:47 yakovsh: column names are an assumption 13:29:03 -jumbrich 13:29:12 q+ 13:29:12 q+ 13:29:17 zakim, unmute me 13:29:17 timfinin should no longer be muted 13:29:34 q- 13:29:52 ack timfinin 13:29:57 +??P26 13:30:01 q- 13:30:10 for "headerless" csvs we could always define default properties, :column1 ,... , :columnn , right? 13:30:12 zakim, ?P26 is jumbrich 13:30:12 sorry, jumbrich, I do not recognize a party named '?P26' 13:30:24 That sounds good 13:30:34 jeni: columns only have numbers, and row 1 titles are simple annotations 13:30:46 zakim, ??P26 is jumbrich 13:30:46 +jumbrich; got it 13:30:48 timfinin: mentions medical clinical trial data 13:31:10 timfinin: had a hard time putting that data into what we are discussing 13:31:17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Feb/0207.html 13:31:22 timfinin: some columns descrive properties, not values 13:31:37 timfinin: often have row headers and column headers 13:31:51 @tim, rowheaders = keys? 13:32:17 timfinin: big chunk of data, many peoiple interested 13:32:46 q? 13:32:48 ... or you mean transposed tables? 13:32:54 q+ 13:32:59 Jeni and timfinin agree example would be good 13:33:06 ack jtandy 13:33:57 Very interesting Medical clinical use case! 13:34:02 q+ 13:34:04 q+ 13:34:06 zakim mute me 13:34:13 ack AxelPolleres 13:34:16 zakim, mure me 13:34:16 I don't understand 'mure me', timfinin 13:34:28 zakim, mute me 13:34:28 timfinin should now be muted 13:34:36 +1 for names as annotations - it means that you can specify the names outside the CSV file if they are not present 13:34:42 AxelPolleres: columns are names or properties 13:35:03 AxelPolleres: not sure this is a binary decision 13:35:05 q? 13:35:18 zakim, mute AxelPolleres 13:35:18 AxelPolleres should now be muted 13:35:23 ack stasinos 13:35:29 q? 13:35:35 say you have a CSV with column headers "foo,bar" 13:35:52 and row 1,2 13:36:27 zakim, mute me 13:36:27 stasinos should now be muted 13:36:52 stasinos: can never be sure what these are, so betrer make them annotations 13:37:04 Jeni: also leans towards annotations 13:37:15 q? 13:37:20 we can indicate that heraders are preferred in bcp 13:37:35 need to distinguish between a header row that is "title,date_published" (property) and a header row that is "Article Title,Date Published" (label)? 13:37:40 then you could translate that to [ :column1 1; ns:foo 1; :column1 2; ns:bar 2 ] . or [ :column1 1 ; column1 2 ] . :column1 rdfs:label "foo" . :column2 rdfs:label "bar" . 13:37:40 Topic: UCR 13:37:41 jtandy: update on use cases and requirements 13:38:35 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/use-cases-and-requirements/ 13:38:47 -AxelPolleres 13:39:21 Zakim, mute me 13:39:21 sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 13:39:24 +??P13 13:40:22 davideC continues . 13:40:26 can't here 13:40:29 can't hear 13:40:44 Too much noise, but I think DavideCpromised something for next week 13:41:14 DavideC: will work towards coompleteing his action by next week 13:41:54 I'll try to have it done by next week, at least half will be ready 13:42:43 zakim, who is noisy? 13:42:51 rsingh2 has joined #csvw 13:42:55 ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ericstephan (15%), jtandy (74%), jumbrich (49%) 13:43:00 More arranging of how to proceed with the use cases document 13:43:08 zakim, mute jumbrich 13:43:08 jumbrich should now be muted 13:43:11 zakim, mute me 13:43:11 jumbrich was already muted, jumbrich 13:43:58 Scope of CVS validation 13:44:03 Jeni: is in scope 13:44:22 q+ 13:44:27 ack AndyS1 13:44:32 ack AndyS 13:44:37 q+ 13:44:38 - +1.781.620.aaff 13:44:48 zakim, unmute me 13:44:48 ivan should no longer be muted 13:44:58 AndyS: what does it mean to be in scope? 13:45:09 -jumbrich 13:45:36 ivan: the definition and validation of CSV is not on the charter; CSV is a given 13:45:52 +??P17 13:46:01 zakim, ??P17 is me 13:46:01 +jumbrich; got it 13:46:37 AndyS discusses algorithms for error recovery 13:46:44 q+ 13:46:50 ack ivan 13:47:09 ivan: main focus: metadata around CSV and conversion 13:47:41 ivan: writing a defition, validation opens many problems to do right 13:48:22 Jeni: validating that given fiole is consistent with the metadata 13:49:14 Similar to XML document being "valid" versus "well formed"? 13:49:44 AndyS (I think): :validation" might mean diff things. It's about people exchanging data knowing that they mean the same thing 13:49:52 +q 13:50:08 ack chrismetcalf 13:50:35 chrismetcalf: validation: checking it is CSV, datatypes are observed 13:50:46 chrismetcalf: datatypes are in scope 13:51:13 chrismetcalf: point to appropriate std 13:51:24 ack yakovsh 13:51:29 q? 13:52:01 yakovsh: RFC defines the mime-type 13:52:17 IETF RFC for CSV: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180 13:52:24 yakovsh: it is not considered a std, it is just for information purposes 13:53:07 yakovsh: no issues with updating, but moving to a proposed standard is a diff styory 13:53:17 In my experience, many “CSV” generators, tools, and files are not compliant with that standard 13:53:29 q+ 13:53:39 yakovsh: will talk to the right people to check if making a std is considered 13:54:22 ack jtandy 13:54:33 -AxelPolleres 13:54:46 +1 to split 13:54:51 jtandy: two kinds of validations soon to come 13:55:01 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/ 13:55:06 +??P13 13:55:14 Zakim, ??P13 is me 13:55:14 +AxelPolleres; got it 13:55:15 Jeni: proposed to end the call, ScribeNick is happy 13:55:21 Zakim, mute me 13:55:21 AxelPolleres should now be muted 13:55:28 no prob 13:55:45 jenit, Is there one priority issue you'd like people to respond to? 13:55:57 Lots of echo 13:56:04 zakim, mute me 13:56:04 ivan should now be muted 13:56:05 -??P14 13:56:36 zakim, unmute me 13:56:36 ivan should no longer be muted 13:56:58 Ivan: time differences 13:58:06 ivan: for three weeks, one hour earlier if we keep US time constant 13:58:09 and the US west coast get to sleep in for an hour :-) 13:58:27 I have no problem with that 13:58:28 ivan: will check if it is possible to base time on GMT 13:58:42 more sleep :) 13:58:43 JenIT :-) 13:58:45 ivan: but be sure: many people on the wrong time no matter what we do 13:59:02 -[IPcaller] 13:59:10 q+ 13:59:17 I vote that standardizing DST is out of scope :) 13:59:19 ack jtandy 13:59:36 jtandy: time left to FPWD 14:00:13 Jeni, ivan: publish ASAP, even rough. Comments help 14:00:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:00:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/26-csvw-minutes.html ivan 14:00:49 -AxelPolleres 14:00:50 -ericstephan 14:00:50 -timfinin 14:00:51 -DavideC 14:00:52 -JeniT 14:00:52 -jtandy 14:00:54 -jumbrich 14:00:54 -AndyS1 14:00:55 AxelPolleres has left #csvw 14:00:56 -Mathew_Thomas 14:00:56 -andimou 14:00:57 -chrismetcalf 14:01:00 -stasinos 14:01:02 -ivan 14:01:03 -yakovsh 14:01:05 DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended 14:01:05 Attendees were +1.937.207.aaaa, jumbrich?, ericstephan, DavideC, +1.410.461.aabb, JeniT, stasinos, ivan, +1.734.276.aacc, Mathew_Thomas, AndyS1, timfinin, fresco_, chrismetcalf, 14:01:05 ... +44.777.586.aadd, andimou, jtandy, +1.781.620.aaff, jumbrich, yakovsh, [IPcaller], AxelPolleres 14:01:05 mielvds has left #csvw 14:01:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:01:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/26-csvw-minutes.html ivan 14:04:11 ivan: are you joining the DACG call? 14:04:26 ivan: conference code is 26631 14:05:16 trying... 15:41:29