12:34:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
12:34:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/19-csvw-irc
12:34:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:34:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
12:34:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
12:34:10 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:34:10 <trackbot> Date: 19 February 2014
12:34:20 <ivan> Chair: DanBri
12:34:51 <danbri> Scribe: Jeni
12:39:58 <ivan> Regrets: Axel Polleres, Adam Retter, Jürgen Umbrich
12:40:32 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-02-19
12:53:37 <TimFinin> TimFinin has joined #csvw
12:54:04 <danbri> any agenda additions?
12:54:07 <konstant> konstant has joined #csvw
12:54:21 <JeniT> JeniT has joined #csvw
12:54:48 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
12:54:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:55:15 <konstant> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
12:55:15 <Zakim> sorry, konstant, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
12:55:37 <Zakim> +TimFinin
12:55:54 <danbri> aren't we 5 mins early?
12:56:05 <konstant> possibly
12:56:41 <fonso> fonso has joined #csvw
12:56:43 <konstant> my 3 three different instances of ntp fail to agree with each other
12:57:11 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
12:58:05 <danbri> I have problem with OSX audio - can't hear anything
12:58:45 <ivan> zakim, code?
12:58:45 <Zakim> the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
12:59:21 <Zakim> +ivan
12:59:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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12:59:52 <JeniT> trackbot, start telcon
12:59:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:59:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
12:59:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM already started
12:59:57 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:59:57 <trackbot> Date: 19 February 2014
13:00:02 <JeniT> Chair: Dan Brickley
13:00:06 <JeniT> Scribe: Jeni Tennison
13:00:09 <JeniT> ScribeNick: JeniT
13:00:13 <danbri> danbri has joined #csvw
13:00:21 <Zakim> +ericstephan
13:00:26 <EricStephan> EricStephan has joined #csvw
13:00:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:00:30 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
13:00:30 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
13:00:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:01:10 <fresco_> zakim, IPCaller is me
13:01:10 <Zakim> +fresco_; got it
13:01:37 <JeniT> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-02-19
13:01:53 <Zakim> +??P11
13:02:05 <DavideCeolin> zakim, P11 is me
13:02:05 <Zakim> sorry, DavideCeolin, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
13:02:12 <DavideCeolin> zakim, ??P11 is me
13:02:12 <Zakim> +DavideCeolin; got it
13:02:16 <Zakim> +??P10
13:02:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:02:22 <danbri> probably
13:02:41 <fonso> zkim, IPcaller is me
13:03:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:03:19 <konstant> zakim, IPcaller is me
13:03:19 <Zakim> +konstant; got it
13:03:22 <jtandy> hi - am just having challenges with an updated version of my softphone ...
13:03:43 <fonso> ok, thanks JeniT
13:04:00 <EricStephan> is it twitter tweets ;-)
13:04:39 <konstant> just muted the birds, sorry
13:04:45 <JeniT> danbri: approve last week's minutes?
13:04:47 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/2014/02/12-csvw-minutes.html
13:05:02 <JeniT> ... no objections, approved
13:05:27 <JeniT> ... same agenda as last week, if anyone else has agenda items please pipe up
13:05:45 <JeniT> AndyS: are we using the Tracker for Issues?
13:06:00 <danbri> jeni?
13:06:13 <danbri> the issue that was raised on tracker was accidental (dan!)
13:06:22 <danbri> [I can barely hear her]
13:06:30 <danbri> goal was to use github issues
13:06:46 <danbri> jtandy, any luck?
13:07:00 <fresco_> it was rather echoey
13:07:00 <EricStephan> having difficulty hearing
13:07:04 <konstant> zakim, mute me
13:07:04 <Zakim> konstant should now be muted
13:07:06 <jtandy> not yet ... getting "no route to destination"
13:07:15 <jtandy> will try skype
13:07:23 <jtandy> (skype out)
13:07:24 <JeniT> Topic: Syntax for Tabular Data on the Web
13:07:31 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/
13:07:58 <ivan> scribenick: danbri
13:08:03 <danbri> Jeni: what i've tried to do in this doc is to get a v basic idea
13:08:06 <danbri> of tabular data model
13:08:22 <danbri> and what a syntax for basic tabular data, ie. for that model, based on csv would look like
13:08:36 <danbri> with an appendix which looks at existing specs, key implementations of csv, to see what they do
13:08:46 <danbri> we might use existing specs and implementations as constraints on what we do
13:09:01 <danbri> there are various issue in that we could go through
13:09:31 <danbri> jeni: the tabular data model as i say v basic, … table w/ one or more cols, each named, one or more rows, each row has a field for each col in the table
13:09:37 <danbri> that's the basic  model
13:09:57 <danbri> 1st issue there is whether order of cols is significant
13:10:07 <danbri> thoughts?
13:10:08 <jtandy> sound quality on skype appalling ... trying real phone. (2 mins please)
13:10:10 <danbri> q?
13:10:21 <danbri> andys: i'd have thought it was quite significant
13:10:37 <danbri> often they're grouped together, for comprehensibility reasons
13:10:47 <danbri> sometimes column naming used as a hint, … eg. with years
13:11:07 <danbri> i think there's an intention underlying that they proceed from left to right
13:11:13 <danbri> q+
13:11:17 <danbri> q-
13:11:23 <ivan> ack danbri
13:11:57 <danbri> dan: order needed if col names missing
13:12:46 <danbri> danbri: doc order can be administratively useful (as rdf/xml etc)
13:12:47 <Zakim> + +44.777.586.aaaa
13:13:16 <jtandy> thanks
13:13:30 <fresco_> i'd like to see an example of data that would have problems if the columns were re-ordered
13:13:33 <TimFinin> q+
13:13:36 <danbri> jeni: […] if not preserved, conseq would be that it would be possible for an impl to read in a file and write it out in a different order conformantly
13:13:43 <JeniT> q?
13:14:17 <danbri> andys: some json reprs e.g. gregg's could lose order
13:14:24 <JeniT> ack TimFinin
13:14:25 <danbri> jeni: any mappings to other formats could have this issue
13:14:44 <danbri> timfinin: wrt ordering, systems that try to infer semantics of tables, order is a strong heuristic
13:15:07 <danbri> … e.g. 1st column much more likely to be a key for the table, adj of columns helps inferring relationships between columns
13:15:20 <danbri> jeni: another good reason
13:15:27 <danbri> resolved: order of columns should be significant
13:15:32 <danbri> next issue is, issue 2 -
13:15:54 <danbri> jenit: in SQL, every column has a type associated with it, … should we assume same within our tabular data model?
13:16:02 <danbri> or have that as a separate layer
13:16:24 <danbri> dan: how would we answer this?
13:16:53 <danbri> jenit: it's a design choice. for example in xml, … originally most values were not typed, then xmlschema layered on top
13:17:05 <danbri> … compare w/ json, basics built-in
13:17:08 <TimFinin> q+
13:17:13 <konstant> q+
13:17:27 <danbri> … in most data formats, we care about particular types, if you're passing around data you should care about the values
13:17:32 <danbri> q+
13:17:36 <danbri> ack Tim
13:18:04 <danbri> timfinin: two notions of type, … low level datatype; integer, date, … other is a semantic type
13:18:20 <danbri> … it would be v interesting to support adding semantic types as help for someone trying to use that table
13:18:29 <danbri> so instead of being a mere string, is a person; or a musicalartist.
13:18:30 <jtandy> agree with TimFinin
13:18:46 <danbri> if we had something like that, it wouldn't be like a schema for validation, but more info for someone trying ot u/stand what the table is
13:18:53 <danbri> q?
13:18:55 <JeniT> ack konstant
13:18:55 <danbri> ack knostant
13:19:08 <danbri> [poor audio?]
13:19:48 <danbri> konstant: wrt data format, … can have header saying if something has an integer, float etc.
13:20:03 <ivan> q+
13:20:05 <danbri> … wrt semantic typing per tim's comment, 1st of all […] what cell is supposed to mean
13:20:15 <danbri> q?
13:20:16 <JeniT> ack danbri
13:20:23 <konstant> zakim, mute me
13:20:23 <Zakim> konstant should now be muted
13:21:18 <TimFinin> maybe we cld have any number of header rows.  One might give simple datatypes.  another might give column names.  another might gibe URIs to semantic types
13:21:35 <danbri> dan: q is whether we consider all csvs to have [homogenously] typed columns (we can always add that via external files)
13:21:55 <danbri> q?
13:21:58 <TimFinin> if we alow a *any* type it might help
13:22:10 <JeniT> ack ivan
13:22:11 <danbri> ack ivan
13:22:35 <danbri> ivan: two diff things. for me, mainly as we have all these semantic types, for me this part of the metadata we'll define. whether we assign a type, ...
13:22:55 <konstant> ivan, it is 25C and sunny today.
13:22:56 <danbri> for a column, it's metadata. that simplifies the treatment, management of the whole thing
13:23:09 <TimFinin> are column header names considered metadata?
13:23:10 <danbri> … also a q: reality of what's out there. What do Excel, OpenOffice, etc do?
13:23:24 <danbri> do they recognise basic data like json, or they turn everything into strings
13:23:27 <danbri> andys: they spot numbers
13:23:31 <danbri> jenit: and dates
13:23:43 <danbri> ivan: so there's a number of data that theyspot automatically
13:24:00 <EricStephan> q+
13:24:15 <AndyS> Locale sensitive as well.  1/4 confuses : "1 April" vs 0.25.
13:24:17 <danbri> q+ to suggest some but not all columns MAY share a fixed type for whole column; but some cols are chaotic.
13:24:22 <JeniT> ack EricStephan
13:24:24 <ivan> ack EricStephan
13:24:35 <danbri> Eric: a huge problem in scientific arena. If you're importing into a s/sheet
13:24:49 <danbri> and if it detectts in a cell something that [happens to] look like a date
13:25:07 <danbri> so you sometimes have to engineer around this, to protect against the spreadsheet tool guessing badly
13:25:16 <danbri> sometimes too smart
13:25:37 <danbri> jenit: good point
13:25:39 <fresco_> http://nsaunders.wordpress.com/2012/10/22/gene-name-errors-and-excel-lessons-not-learned/
13:25:39 <JeniT> ack danbri
13:25:39 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest some but not all columns MAY share a fixed type for whole column; but some cols are chaotic.
13:26:10 <danbri> q?
13:26:16 <fresco_> http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2105/5/80
13:26:43 <ivan> q+
13:27:14 <danbri> jenit: some more issues, but i'll make a redraft based on this, … probably with a 2 layer model
13:27:16 <AndyS> For semantic types,  avoid "DanBri"^^foaf:Person
13:27:42 <AndyS> or "DanBri" rdf:type foaf:Person
13:27:59 <danbri> ivan: one comment on list (maybe jtandy); often in one csv file you often have several tables; is this something we're even considering
13:28:08 <jtandy> q+
13:28:10 <AndyS> q+ to talk about multiple tables.
13:28:17 <danbri> jenit: good point, a lot of our examples have required multiple tables in some ways associated with each other
13:28:20 <ivan> ack ivan
13:28:37 <danbri> it is useful for this doc to somehow recognise that; then we can move on to discuss how those sep tables can be expressed
13:28:44 <danbri> e.g. in one table, zipped etc
13:28:50 <fresco_> tables within tables: http://dx.doi.org/10.7717/peerj.259/table-3
13:28:53 <danbri> q?
13:28:58 <danbri> ack jtandy
13:29:13 <fresco_> jenit: :)
13:29:25 <danbri> jtandy: the comment I made, .. often multiple CSVs are packaged as a dataset in a zipfile, each text file represents a facet of the dataset
13:29:50 <konstant> q+
13:29:50 <danbri> ivan: that's friendlier than several tables in one file
13:30:12 <JeniT> ack andys
13:30:12 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to talk about multiple tables.
13:30:44 <danbri> andys: what i'd like to see … data syntax format pointing to a region of a csv file, …
13:30:52 <konstant> konstant is "stasinos" and promises to change his nick
13:30:55 <danbri> …orig to be able to id the data parts from the presentational surround
13:31:11 <konstant> no prob
13:31:27 <JeniT> q+ to question scope about handling existing CSVs
13:31:35 <danbri> andys: on mult tables, … sometimes it is written, there really are two tables there, but flattened in a dump
13:31:36 <jtandy> q-
13:32:01 <danbri> andys: eg. regions + sales items packaged together
13:32:14 <danbri> … gregg talked about this 'denormalization dumping effect'
13:32:16 <danbri> q?
13:32:27 <konstant> zakim, unmute me
13:32:27 <Zakim> konstant should no longer be muted
13:32:29 <danbri> ack konstant
13:32:46 <danbri> konstant: I'm not really sure why ivan so worried about multiple tables in the same file
13:33:04 <danbri> … we also have cols w/ diff types, diff rows, complex interdependencies, all kinds of [other] ugliness
13:33:21 <danbri> … if someone dumps multiple tables in one file they'll have some kind of delimiter
13:33:30 <danbri> … there should be something that is machine describable
13:33:56 <danbri> ivan: surely true, a minor thing, but let's say the CSV handling toolkit w/ python would break on these things, for eg.
13:34:08 <danbri> jtandy, ready to talk about Use Cases doc?
13:34:12 <danbri> q?
13:34:18 <JeniT> q-
13:34:23 <jtandy> yes - quick update today
13:34:51 <danbri> ivan: there are more complications out there than i expected, that's all!
13:34:54 <JeniT> ScribeNick: JeniT
13:34:56 <konstant> zakim, mute me
13:34:56 <Zakim> konstant should now be muted
13:35:03 <JeniT> Topic: Use Cases & Requirements
13:35:32 <JeniT> jtandy: I've created the boilerplate document
13:35:54 <danbri> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Feb/0072.html
13:35:59 <danbri> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/use-cases-and-requirements/
13:36:04 <JeniT> ... abstract, intro etc are there
13:36:07 <JeniT> ... yet to add use cases
13:36:25 <JeniT> ... Alf has been working with Davide on providing more detailed examples with supporting datasets, so thanks to them
13:36:29 <JeniT> ... I will work through those shortly
13:36:45 <JeniT> ... email from Juan about CSV2RDF based on getting data out of relational databases
13:36:57 <JeniT> ... but there's no use case for CSV publication from relational databases
13:37:01 <JeniT> ... as yet
13:37:09 <danbri> juan: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Feb/0058.html
13:37:18 <JeniT> ... re Gregg's CSV-LD proposal, it implies a bunch of use cases, but I'm not sure how many of those we're picking up
13:37:23 <danbri> gregg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Feb/0000.html
13:37:53 <JeniT> ... I'm looking for people to provide specific examples of data that we can stitch together with a narrative
13:38:07 <JeniT> ... I'm putting one together myself around the Met Office data which we can use as an example
13:38:18 <EricStephan> +q
13:38:21 <JeniT> ... so if you have got a use case, please provide a narrative & datasets for them
13:38:42 <JeniT> ... there are details on the wiki under use case analysis
13:38:44 <danbri> https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Use_Cases
13:38:52 <JeniT> ... I will ping people explicitly on the mailing list as I work on the use case
13:39:14 <JeniT> ... I'm concerned that the use cases don't yet cover the full scope of what we want to achieve
13:39:25 <JeniT> ... we need use cases to hang requirements on
13:39:33 <JeniT> danbri: are there any use cases promised but not delivered?
13:40:04 <JeniT> jtandy: I don't think so, but what we have doesn't much the scope of the requirements people are bringing up
13:40:09 <TimFinin> i volunteered to give a use case for using CSV to exchange data in text information systems
13:40:11 <JeniT> q?
13:40:20 <danbri> q?
13:40:22 <JeniT> ack EricStephan
13:40:22 <danbri> ack eric
13:40:34 <JeniT> EricStephan: I've tried contributing use cases
13:40:34 <DavideCeolin> I haven't shared a new version of the police data analysis use case yet but I'm close to have it done
13:40:47 <TimFinin> text information systems -> text information extraction systems
13:40:54 <danbri> davide, think you'll do that before next week's call?
13:40:56 <JeniT> ... I'm seeing in scientific formats, a basic format of header, then delimited data
13:41:02 <JeniT> ... I don't know how you want to organise those
13:41:10 <JeniT> ... I contributed two more this morning along those lines
13:41:13 <ivan> s/text information systems/text information extraction systems/
13:41:29 <DavideCeolin> danbri, yes hopefully in a couple of days max
13:41:31 <JeniT> jtandy: I haven't seen those, but I'll look at them and follow up on the list
13:41:51 <JeniT> EricStephan: also, there were some contributions around the NetCDF format
13:41:57 <JeniT> ... also uncertainty qualification
13:42:10 <JeniT> ... eg simulations that change one parameter
13:42:18 <JeniT> ... which gives multiple CSVs
13:42:31 <JeniT> ... I can elaborate around these and more complex examples if that would be helpful
13:42:32 <danbri> q?
13:42:34 <JeniT> jtandy: yes please
13:42:53 <JeniT> ... One interesting thing is how we deal with missing values
13:43:03 <JeniT> ... eg people using -999
13:43:10 <EricStephan> good point
13:43:19 <JeniT> ... that's an example where we can make sure the syntax deals with that
13:43:31 <JeniT> danbri: I met last week with colleagues working on Fusion Tables
13:43:47 <JeniT> ... it's possible we can ask questions about the CSVs in use on the web
13:43:52 <JeniT> ... eg about what line endings are used
13:44:01 <JeniT> ... or whether -999 happens often
13:44:12 <JeniT> ... so if you have questions like that send them my way and I'll try to answer them
13:44:51 <JeniT> danbri: any other business?
13:45:00 <JeniT> Topic: AOB
13:45:15 <EricStephan> sounds good
13:45:18 <ivan> q+
13:45:24 <danbri> scribe next week?
13:45:35 <JeniT> ivan: I saw Jeremy tested in Excel
13:45:37 <danbri> i might not be here next week (middle of california trip)
13:46:11 <JeniT> ... are tests in other tools useful?
13:46:31 <JeniT> JeniT: yes please
13:46:33 <JeniT> danbri: good to have these test files
13:46:39 <JeniT> ... Scribe volunteer?
13:46:43 <danbri> zakim, pick a scribe
13:46:43 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose konstant (muted)
13:46:56 <konstant> a-ha
13:47:10 <konstant> ok, ok
13:47:28 <konstant> "volunteer"
13:47:34 <danbri> thanks, 'volunteer'
13:47:36 <danbri> :)
13:47:41 <JeniT> konstant will scribe next week
13:47:49 <EricStephan> bye
13:47:50 <Zakim> -jtandy
13:47:51 <Zakim> -JeniT
13:47:52 <Zakim> -fonso
13:47:54 <Zakim> -ivan
13:47:57 <Zakim> -DavideCeolin
13:47:59 <Zakim> -ericstephan
13:47:59 <Zakim> -TimFinin
13:48:03 <Zakim> -AndyS
13:48:04 <Zakim> -danbri
13:48:11 <fonso> bye
13:48:13 <Zakim> -fresco_
13:48:22 <ivan> trackbot, stop telcon
13:48:22 <trackbot> Sorry, ivan, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop telcon'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
13:48:28 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
13:48:28 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:48:28 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TimFinin, ivan, JeniT, ericstephan, AndyS, fresco_, DavideCeolin, danbri, konstant, fonso, jtandy
13:48:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:48:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/19-csvw-minutes.html trackbot
13:48:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:48:37 <RRSAgent> I see no action items