15:48:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:48:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/10-dpub-irc
15:48:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:48:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
15:48:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:48:26 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
15:48:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:48:27 <trackbot> Date: 10 February 2014
15:48:50 <lizadaly> lizadaly has joined #dpub
15:50:17 <lizadaly> I pointed to the wrong URL in the agenda, my apologies
15:51:26 <lizadaly> We're discussing Pagination/DOM interaction under http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory
15:53:10 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
15:55:42 <ivan> zakim, code?
15:55:42 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
15:56:18 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
15:56:25 <Zakim> +MIT531
15:56:47 <ivan> zakim, MIT531 holds ivan, liza
15:56:47 <Zakim> +ivan, liza; got it
15:56:51 <philm> philm has joined #dpub
15:56:54 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:56:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT531
15:56:55 <Zakim> MIT531 has ivan, liza
15:56:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see philm, fjh, lizadaly, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, marilyn, cwdoh, ivan, liam, astearns, plinss, trackbot
15:57:29 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:57:38 <dauwhe> Zakim, unmute me
15:57:38 <Zakim> dauwhe was not muted, dauwhe
15:57:45 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
15:58:03 <Zakim> +Marilyn
15:58:23 <Zakim> +Philm
15:58:33 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
15:59:03 <Zakim> -Philm
15:59:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
15:59:25 <Luc> Luc has joined #dpub
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15:59:28 <Zakim> +azaroth
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15:59:37 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #DPUB
15:59:45 <Zakim> +Philm
15:59:45 <azaroth> zakim, am I muted?
15:59:47 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, azaroth.
15:59:52 <azaroth> zakim, who is muted
15:59:52 <Zakim> azaroth, you need to end that query with '?'
15:59:55 <azaroth> zakim, who is muted?
15:59:55 <Zakim> I see no one muted
15:59:57 <Zakim> +Tzviya
16:00:05 <azaroth> zakim, thanks for not muting us all!
16:00:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'thanks for not muting us all!', azaroth
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
16:00:07 <Zakim> +duga
16:00:17 <Zakim> + +33.1.41.23.aaaa
16:00:19 <ivan> zakim, you are not polite...
16:00:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you are not polite', ivan
16:00:44 <ivan> regrets: Markus, Vlad, JeanKaplansky
16:00:53 <lizadaly> SCRIIIIIIIIBE
16:01:03 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:01:09 <Zakim> + +1.917.447.aabb
16:01:21 <karen> karen has joined #dpub
16:01:28 <ivan> zakim, aabb is benjaminsko
16:01:28 <Zakim> +benjaminsko; got it
16:01:45 <lizadaly> zakim, pick a victim
16:01:45 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose azaroth
16:01:51 <azaroth> thanks Zakim
16:02:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:07 <azaroth> scribe: azaroth
16:02:08 <fjh> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:02:08 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
16:02:10 <ivan> scribenick: azaroth
16:02:34 <Zakim> +??P3
16:02:41 <tmichel> zakim, ??P3 is me
16:02:41 <Zakim> +tmichel; got it
16:03:00 <azaroth> Liza:  Can we approve the previous minutes?
16:03:11 <azaroth> ... Assuming no objections? Okay... approved.
16:03:13 <Zakim> +Bert
16:03:17 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
16:03:25 <Zakim> +LFowler
16:03:29 <azaroth> ... There were corrections that Karen missed in the previous set. Don't know if they've been updated or not
16:03:38 <azaroth> ???: They've not been updated, so we should leave
16:03:48 <azaroth> Liza: That's fine. Markus isn't back till next week
16:03:55 <ivan> s/???/tmichel/
16:03:59 <tmichel> s/???/tmichel
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16:04:13 <lizadaly> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory
16:04:23 <azaroth> ... Okay, there are use cases for pagination posted at the bottom of the use case directory. About 6 of them from Brady
16:04:33 <astearns> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory#Pagination.2FDOM_interaction
16:04:39 <azaroth> ... he isn't going to lead the task force so one goal is to find an owner to shepherd them
16:04:54 <azaroth> ... Brady would you mind talking us through the goals for the TF?
16:05:13 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aacc
16:05:21 <azaroth> brady: This game up in China. We talked a lot about how you style a page, Dave is doing latineq and lots of work being done in CSS
16:05:36 <azaroth> ... but for reading system we need to know more than just how to break it into pages, but also how to reference a page
16:05:40 <dshkolnik> Zakim, aacc is dshkolnik
16:05:40 <Zakim> +dshkolnik; got it
16:05:42 <astearns> s/game/came/
16:05:54 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #dpub
16:05:58 <dshkolnik> Zakim, mute me
16:05:58 <Zakim> dshkolnik should now be muted
16:06:09 <azaroth> ... so have to trick things into thinking that they're pages.  RS needs to know how many pages are in the document, how to change the page size, display multiple pages at the same time
16:06:18 <azaroth> ... some sort of object model for what a page is and how to refer to it
16:06:30 <dauwhe> q+
16:06:33 <azaroth> ... that's the use cases.  In China I was asked to write up a few, which are now on the wiki
16:06:41 <azaroth> ... goes beyond style, into a model.
16:06:46 <Zakim> +??P28
16:07:00 <azaroth> Liza:  Assumption is it's about how a RS would behave, not necessarily how it would be supplied?
16:07:16 <azaroth> Brady: Wrote as a RS implementer, but could be use cases from the publisher side
16:07:17 <ivan> q+
16:07:25 <gcapiel> Zakim, ??P28 is Me
16:07:26 <Zakim> +gcapiel; got it
16:07:48 <azaroth> ... Publisher has lots of style issues, but also may need to know about where pages are and how they work. Esp if there's javascript
16:07:59 <lizadaly> ack dauwhe
16:08:02 <azaroth> ... a JS widget that needs to know how many pages there are, the publisher would be interested
16:08:33 <azaroth> dauwhe: A couple of things from CSS point of view, some discussion about this sort of thing in CSS, important to be able to know what a page is and how to address it
16:09:00 <azaroth> ... work on fragmentation might help here.  Publishers interested in styling things based on which page they're on and the position within the page
16:09:25 <azaroth> ... so far css isn't really addressing that issue. working on selecting the master page in the InDesign sense, but that doesn't select the content of the page
16:09:30 <tzviya> q+
16:09:32 <lizadaly> ack ivan
16:09:33 <azaroth> ... lots of pieces to this
16:09:38 <dauwhe> q-
16:10:18 <azaroth> Ivan:  Ran into a problem that relates -- a book that also had illustrations and caption of illustration was quote from the text.  Quote said this is on page 622.  And then it wasn't, depending on reflowing.
16:10:36 <azaroth> ... so publishers have to have some special way to encode it, so the RS can get it right.  Can't completely forget about it
16:11:12 <azaroth> dauwhe: generated content for paged media module has that kind of page referencing property.  Can retrieve the page number from the link and display it to have the right number
16:11:19 <azaroth> Ivan: Publishers have to know how to do that.
16:11:31 <azaroth> dauwhe: And it has to be implemented.  Not sure of implementation outside of Random House
16:11:42 <azaroth> ???: It needs to be embedded in teh content? or working interactively?
16:11:50 <lizadaly> s/Random House/Antenna House/
16:12:00 <lizadaly> ??? was Bill_Kasdorf
16:12:07 <azaroth> dauwhe: You can say link to a heading somewhere ... there's an illustration far away.  THen you write CSS to say get the ID value and find the page value, display that here
16:12:08 <lizadaly> ack tzviya
16:12:17 <azaroth> s/???/Bill_Kasdorf/
16:12:18 <ivan> s/???/Bill_kasdorf
16:12:49 <azaroth> tzviya: If we're working on implementing JS, we can call it a viewport or page, we don't know where things are going to land on the page.  Eg a touch event, we want to contain it to a particular screen
16:13:11 <azaroth> lizadaly: I wasn't really considering publishers writing interactive components inside a book, not common now but should be
16:13:18 <dauwhe> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-gcpm/#target-counter
16:13:21 <azaroth> ... they'll want a common way to reference pages
16:13:45 <azaroth> tzviya: page references in a cook book, you might say see recipe on page 72, but in academic work citations are more complicated
16:13:51 <azaroth> ... working with references across works
16:13:58 <azaroth> ... probably not in scope, but want to consider it
16:14:22 <azaroth> lizadaly: linking is important, but should probably confine it to pagination rather than the whole world of references
16:14:54 <ivan> q+
16:14:56 <azaroth> ... sounds like someone other than a RS vendor should come up with publisher centric use cases before we can say it's complete
16:14:57 <dshkolnik> In digital magazine world we see a lot of custom JavaScript from publishers. The contract between Adobe Content Viewer and the publishers content is that we call onAppear()/onDisappear() when page is displayed.
16:14:58 <lizadaly> ack ivan
16:15:31 <azaroth> ivan: what's the next steps?  in China we wondered whether it means we need changes or extensions to the current DOM model, or not?
16:15:42 <azaroth> ... that would be a very specific, heavy technical requirement
16:15:50 <azaroth> ... need to be careful before issuing such a requirement
16:15:59 <azaroth> ... is that where we're going, or can we get around it?
16:16:29 <azaroth> lizadaly: no way to reference a particular page in DOM other than with lots of JS hacks
16:16:40 <dauwhe> q+
16:16:41 <azaroth> ... can't even say what page you're currently on.
16:16:52 <azaroth> ... need a solution
16:17:13 <Zakim> +madi
16:17:21 <azaroth> brady_duga: Agree there isnt' a solution today.  Two options -- modify the way DOM works or layer a solution on top of it
16:17:35 <azaroth> ... that might be possible without changing the dom, but some other way to map between elements in the DOM and pages
16:17:39 <madi> madi has joined #dpub
16:17:50 <azaroth> ... only want to show this portion of the DOM because that's the page we're on.  DOn't know which is the way to go
16:17:55 <lizadaly> ack dauwhe
16:18:35 <azaroth> dauwhe: Actually changing the DOM seems like an incredibly high hurdle.  not an expert but lots of work on extensions to the DOM to talk about things not really in the dom like pseudo elements
16:18:59 <azaroth> ... wonder if there's possibility in that space to be able to manipulate the objects we want to talk about
16:19:02 <astearns> q+
16:19:09 <lizadaly> ack astearns
16:19:28 <azaroth> astearns: one possibility for building on top of the dom is to use css regions.
16:19:51 <azaroth> ... when you fragment content with regions you have some scripting access to the region chain, you can find out which position the region is in the chain
16:20:09 <azaroth> ... so you can find out what page content is on, so long as you map regions to pages
16:20:22 <azaroth> ... so can build on top of that as it lets you do some of the things raised
16:20:41 <azaroth> lizadaly: Remember an early draft of the spec, excited that it gives that level of access.
16:20:53 <ivan> q+
16:20:55 <azaroth> astearns: the spec is moving along. Mozilla is not terribly interested
16:21:05 <azaroth> ... Chrome decided to take it out for now as mozilla aren't doing it
16:21:16 <lizadaly> ack ivan
16:21:19 <azaroth> ... implementation in safari, and older version in IE. Need to wait for other browsers
16:22:02 <azaroth> ivan: good example.  Don't know why mozilla isn't interested, but tells me that if it's a solution or main component for the publishing industry, then the IG should make it clear to the parties
16:22:10 <azaroth> ... that as far as we're concerned, this should have a high priority
16:22:25 <dauwhe> q+
16:22:37 <azaroth> ... as it solves a big problem.  Alan you're on the CSS WG, what can this IG do to try to increase the priority of implementation?
16:22:46 <lizadaly> ack dauwhe
16:22:51 <azaroth> lizadaly: Helpful to say that it's very important
16:22:53 <karen> zakim, code?
16:22:53 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), karen
16:23:05 <azaroth> astearns: I think it would be good to talk about use cases rather than specific technology
16:23:26 <azaroth> ... knowing the page number, what content is on the page, etc. need to get that information from the reading system to act on
16:23:43 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
16:23:44 <azaroth> ... noting regions has the capability built in.  A better way to put pressure.
16:24:17 <azaroth> dauwhe: wondering if regions can address these kinds of issues? Can it do it behind the scenes without publishers writing in all the region machinery in CSS?
16:24:47 <azaroth> ... can it interpret pagination or something a RS could use to implement pagination and then expose hooks without publishers having to assign everything individualy
16:25:00 <azaroth> astearns: Good question. Goes to promoting use cases not technology
16:25:02 <ivan> regrets+ Julie
16:25:16 <azaroth> ... believe it will be that there'll be JS libraries built on top of regions that gives the functionality
16:25:31 <azaroth> ... or we look at how regions and js interact, and find a lower level way in CSS to do the same thing
16:25:48 <azaroth> ... so regions+ js to me is the right way to address a lot of the use cases, but I could be wrong
16:26:17 <azaroth> lizadaly: when i first saw some region support in chrome, pagination and seeking to a page, can't say it would solve all the use cases here, but was very promising
16:26:21 <azaroth> ... better than previous solutions
16:26:31 <azaroth> astearns: Some limitations, when you get to very long documents
16:26:48 <azaroth> ... regions + script may not be performant enough.  might inform where we need to work.
16:27:07 <azaroth> ... Brady and Rosen from MS were talking about the next steps and how to get a long pagination scenario working okay
16:27:24 <azaroth> lizadaly: agree that's been a problem with all the solutions I've seen so far -- they fall apart in long streams
16:27:30 <ivan> q+
16:27:34 <lizadaly> ack ivan
16:27:59 <azaroth> ivan: not like trying to push anyone but this tells me it would be relatively urgent to get these use cases documented and published
16:28:06 <azaroth> ... could be the time when the pressure could work
16:28:21 <azaroth> ... if we are too late with the UCs then could be too late and will be pushed back to CSS4
16:28:29 <azaroth> +1
16:29:03 <azaroth> brady: Curious what the next steps are? Not sure I even proof read them.  Need more people to add use cases?
16:29:08 <dauwhe> q+
16:29:27 <lizadaly> ack dauwhe
16:29:30 <azaroth> ivan: At some point we need to publish working draft -- a more formal doc from the IG -- that we can put on the desks of appropriate people
16:29:49 <azaroth> dauwhe: another use case is the desire to style things on page position, eg recto/verso
16:29:57 <azaroth> ... do those use cases help?
16:30:09 <azaroth> +1 to r/v from medieval manuscript scholar
16:30:25 <azaroth> lizadaly: changing properties of the text based on pagination
16:30:34 <azaroth> dauwhe: a better foundation for pagination than currently
16:30:48 <azaroth> lizadaly: would like to see some publisher focused use cases listed
16:31:08 <azaroth> ... styling or js apis that publishers could make use of that understand pagination seems relevant
16:31:30 <azaroth> ... might want to be explicit that performance is important
16:31:40 <tzviya> I was thinking of Random and Simon
16:32:06 <azaroth> tzviya: Simon & Schuster, also Random House
16:32:17 <azaroth> dauwhe: wanting to do things particularly with a spread
16:32:29 <azaroth> ivan: who should reach out to Lisa ?Cachin?
16:32:35 <lizadaly> Liisa
16:32:44 <azaroth> dauwhe: I will
16:33:02 <azaroth> dauwhe: action on Ivan to get them to join :)
16:33:07 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:33:28 <azaroth> ivan: reaching out a good idea.
16:33:47 <azaroth> tzviya: S&S work on children's books a lot. but if Liisa has good examples that's probably sufficient
16:33:53 <azaroth> ... RH is a great start
16:34:17 <azaroth> ivan: what about STEM? mathematical text books with cross refs in pages, formulae etc was incredibly important
16:34:27 <azaroth> ... can also ask Jean
16:34:40 <azaroth> tzviya: can talk about over lunch at EduPub
16:34:49 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
16:35:10 <azaroth> lizadaly: Another pass through the use cases would be good
16:35:20 <azaroth> brady_duga: I'll take another pass through them
16:35:35 <azaroth> lizadaly: publisher focused ones will take a little longer
16:35:47 <azaroth> ivan: brady are you in a position to lead the TF?
16:36:05 <azaroth> brady_duga: I think we should find someone else, if I take the leadership it won't get done
16:36:17 <azaroth> ... can't really take on anything much at this point and expect anything to happen with it
16:36:29 <azaroth> ... can help out
16:36:44 <azaroth> ivan: so next question is who?
16:36:58 <azaroth> lizadaly: I vote for Liisa :)
16:37:10 <lizadaly> s/lizadaly/tzviya/
16:37:15 <azaroth> ivan: There was a meeting last week but I don't think it would be appropriate at this moment
16:37:18 <lizadaly> but +1 :)
16:37:31 <azaroth> karen: Don't want to discourage reaching out, but they don't see a compelling reason to participate at the moment
16:38:04 <azaroth> ivan: We'll reach out anyway for use cases regardless
16:38:12 <azaroth> karen: I think she'd be happy for use cases
16:38:22 <azaroth> ivan: Getting her as an IE probably not doable at the moment
16:38:27 <azaroth> ... so need someone else
16:38:44 <azaroth> brady_duga: would love to but am wildly overly committed
16:39:03 <azaroth> tzviya: have you heard from elsevier?
16:39:07 <lizadaly> s/brady_duga/dauwhe/
16:39:24 <azaroth> ivan: contact goes back 5 or 6 years.
16:40:07 <azaroth> ivan: oxford university press ... some contact but not the right person.  OUP is a member as part of Oxford.
16:40:22 <azaroth> ... matter of finding the right person
16:40:34 <azaroth> lizadaly: we build their impelemntations so can talk to team and find the right person
16:40:49 <azaroth> ivan: I can reach out but several attempts would be good
16:40:59 <azaroth> lizadaly: we normally work with humanities and reference group
16:41:15 <azaroth> ivan: a problem we have to solve, but not necessarily right now
16:41:30 <azaroth> lizadaly: This was only thing on the agenda
16:41:32 <azaroth> q+
16:41:39 <lizadaly> ack azaroth
16:42:09 <Luc> Sorry, I have to leave
16:42:12 <tzviya> azaroth: we discussed approving annotation use cases and added accessibility to use cases
16:42:19 <Zakim> - +33.1.41.23.aaaa
16:42:23 <tzviya> ...should i begin work on note?
16:42:33 <azaroth> ivan: starting to work on note will help to clean up use cases
16:42:37 <lizadaly> (Thanks tzviya)
16:42:54 <azaroth> ... so I would start turning them into a real document. While doing that some issues will come up to discuss
16:43:06 <azaroth> ... you have the infrastructure?
16:43:09 <azaroth> azaroth: Yup
16:43:20 <azaroth> ivan: If you need help you know where to find it :)
16:43:24 <azaroth> lizadaly: AOB?
16:43:31 <Zakim> -LFowler
16:43:31 <azaroth> ... Okay, thanks every one
16:43:32 <Zakim> -madi
16:43:33 <Zakim> -fjh
16:43:33 <Zakim> -benjaminsko
16:43:34 <Zakim> -Philm
16:43:34 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
16:43:35 <Zakim> -MIT531
16:43:35 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:43:35 <Zakim> -Tzviya
16:43:36 <Zakim> -duga
16:43:36 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:43:38 <Zakim> -Stearns
16:43:39 <Zakim> -azaroth
16:43:41 <Zakim> -Bert
16:43:42 <Zakim> -dshkolnik
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16:43:55 <Zakim> -gcapiel
16:44:46 <Zakim> -tmichel
16:45:00 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:45:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/10-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
17:05:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Marilyn, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM
17:05:02 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
17:05:02 <Zakim> Attendees were ivan, liza, dauwhe, Marilyn, Philm, azaroth, Tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, duga, +33.1.41.23.aaaa, Stearns, +1.917.447.aabb, benjaminsko, fjh, tmichel, Bert, LFowler,
17:05:03 <Zakim> ... +1.415.832.aacc, dshkolnik, gcapiel, madi, Karen_Myers
17:05:13 <Bert> Bert has left #dpub
18:01:13 <cwdoh> cwdoh has joined #dpub
18:41:52 <marilyn> marilyn has joined #dpub
18:55:54 <ivan> ivan has joined #dpub
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