IRC log of eval on 2014-01-23
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:36:37 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #eval
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-eval-irc
- 14:36:39 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 14:36:39 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #eval
- 14:36:41 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 3825
- 14:36:41 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
- 14:36:42 [trackbot]
- Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
- 14:36:42 [trackbot]
- Date: 23 January 2014
- 14:52:07 [Vivienne]
- Vivienne has joined #eval
- 14:53:15 [Zakim]
- WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
- 14:53:22 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:53:28 [Vivienne]
- zakim, IPcaller is me
- 14:53:28 [Zakim]
- +Vivienne; got it
- 14:57:49 [Zakim]
- +Shadi
- 14:58:32 [ericvelleman]
- ericvelleman has joined #eval
- 14:59:26 [agarrison]
- agarrison has joined #eval
- 14:59:44 [agarrison]
- I'm going to be a couple of minutes late...
- 15:00:12 [Liz]
- Liz has joined #eval
- 15:00:58 [Zakim]
- +Mary_Jo_Mueller
- 15:01:12 [Zakim]
- +Liz
- 15:01:27 [Detlev]
- Detlev has joined #eval
- 15:02:08 [Mike_Elledge]
- Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
- 15:02:34 [Zakim]
- +Detlev
- 15:02:36 [Zakim]
- +EricVelleman
- 15:02:37 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Elledge
- 15:02:46 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:02:47 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 15:03:36 [Detlev]
- hi
- 15:04:05 [shadi]
- scribe: shadi
- 15:04:18 [richard]
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- 15:04:23 [shadi]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2014Jan/0016.html
- 15:04:35 [shadi]
- agenda+ Follow up discussion about latest Editor Draft and DoC
- 15:04:46 [shadi]
- agenda+ Open issues and last discussions for this version
- 15:04:53 [shadi]
- agenda+ Test-run thoughts
- 15:05:03 [shadi]
- agenda+ Face-to-Face Meeting at CSUN
- 15:05:11 [shadi]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:05:11 [Zakim]
- Shadi should now be muted
- 15:05:14 [MaryJo]
- MaryJo has joined #eval
- 15:05:16 [shadi]
- zakim, take up next
- 15:05:16 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Follow up discussion about latest Editor Draft and DoC" taken up [from shadi]
- 15:05:22 [ericvelleman]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140121
- 15:05:50 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 15:05:51 [agarrison]
- zakim, ipcaller is Alistair
- 15:05:51 [Zakim]
- +Alistair; got it
- 15:06:10 [gavinevans]
- gavinevans has joined #eval
- 15:06:17 [shadi]
- EV: updated Editor Draft of 21 January
- 15:06:24 [shadi]
- ...treid to integrate some comments
- 15:07:01 [shadi]
- q+
- 15:07:33 [shadi]
- ack me
- 15:08:26 [shadi]
- s/some/most
- 15:08:30 [Zakim]
- + +44.179.281.aaaa
- 15:08:55 [ericvelleman]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20131129
- 15:09:18 [shadi]
- ...there are two disposition of comments
- 15:09:54 [shadi]
- ...one from 26 February Working Draft
- 15:09:59 [shadi]
- ...the second from 29 November Editor Draft
- 15:10:51 [shadi]
- ...missing just a few comments to integrate
- 15:11:05 [shadi]
- ...particularly on adding a section on "responsive design"
- 15:11:38 [shadi]
- SAZ: action on Kathy, need to check with her if she can get it in time
- 15:12:03 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 15:12:12 [shadi]
- EV: otherwise need to add an editor note for review
- 15:12:18 [Mike_Elledge]
- q+
- 15:12:46 [shadi]
- EV: comment #72 to add arrows from each step to step 5
- 15:12:46 [Detlev]
- I don''t understand the issue - can you explain, Eric?
- 15:12:57 [shadi]
- ...graphic was from Kathy?
- 15:14:34 [shadi]
- ME: need a section for responsive design?
- 15:14:51 [shadi]
- SAZ: actually a paragraph in the list under "Particular Evaluation Contexts"
- 15:17:20 [shadi]
- ME: could then shorten the note in section "website in multiple versions" if we have a specific section on responsive design
- 15:17:33 [Vivienne]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:17:33 [Zakim]
- Vivienne should now be muted
- 15:17:39 [shadi]
- EV: need text from Kathy first
- 15:17:54 [shadi]
- q?
- 15:18:02 [MoeKraft]
- MoeKraft has joined #eval
- 15:18:03 [Zakim]
- + +1.978.899.aabb
- 15:18:13 [shadi]
- ack mike
- 15:18:21 [shadi]
- ack viv
- 15:18:22 [Vivienne]
- zakim, ack me
- 15:18:22 [Zakim]
- I see no one on the speaker queue
- 15:18:28 [MoeKraft]
- Zakim , aabb is MoeKraft
- 15:18:38 [Vivienne]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:18:38 [Zakim]
- Vivienne should now be muted
- 15:18:57 [Detlev]
- q+
- 15:19:36 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 15:19:53 [shadi]
- EV: back to comment #72, everyone OK with an arrow from each step to step 5?
- 15:20:05 [shadi]
- DF: diagram already quite complex
- 15:20:18 [shadi]
- ...will that really make it better?
- 15:20:46 [shadi]
- EV: agree but more precise
- 15:20:53 [shadi]
- DF: quite self-explanatory
- 15:21:02 [shadi]
- ...but the important message is the feedback loop
- 15:21:14 [shadi]
- ...not the fact that you need reporting all the time
- 15:21:25 [Vivienne]
- I'm not too worried about it
- 15:21:31 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:21:31 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 15:21:57 [Detlev]
- leave as is
- 15:22:02 [ericvelleman]
- -1
- 15:22:07 [agarrison]
- -1
- 15:22:12 [Mike_Elledge]
- -1 (keep the same)
- 15:22:14 [MaryJo]
- -1
- 15:22:19 [Liz]
- Leave as is
- 15:22:51 [shadi]
- [poll on making the change of adding arrows above]
- 15:23:09 [shadi]
- RESOLUTION: keep it as-is in the upcoming draft for more discussion
- 15:25:10 [Mike_Elledge]
- q+
- 15:25:43 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Elledge
- 15:26:24 [MaryJo]
- keep as is, lists of one are not optimal.
- 15:26:27 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Elledge
- 15:27:15 [ericvelleman]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140121#step5d
- 15:28:06 [Detlev]
- Should be "Aggregated Score" not "Aggregation Score"
- 15:28:21 [shadi]
- EV: had agreed to drop "Per Instance" score approach
- 15:28:36 [shadi]
- ...also dropped "Web Web Page" scoring
- 15:28:53 [shadi]
- ...and renamed to "Aggregated Score" to make clearer
- 15:28:54 [shadi]
- q+
- 15:28:55 [Detlev]
- q+
- 15:29:00 [shadi]
- q- later
- 15:29:05 [shadi]
- q- mike
- 15:29:07 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 15:29:33 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Elledge
- 15:29:46 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:30:31 [shadi]
- DF: do we remove "Per Web Page" score as well?
- 15:30:52 [shadi]
- ...if one SC is missed on one page gets reflected highly
- 15:31:09 [shadi]
- ack me
- 15:31:54 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:31:54 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 15:32:13 [MaryJo]
- q+
- 15:32:42 [Detlev]
- per page would work fine for me
- 15:33:03 [shadi]
- SAZ: agreed on "Per Web Page" than "Per Website"
- 15:33:36 [shadi]
- ...also need to discuss opening up to other scoring approaches
- 15:34:20 [shadi]
- MJ: think "Per Website" makes more sense
- 15:36:32 [Detlev]
- q+
- 15:36:44 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 15:37:05 [shadi]
- [SAZ explains "Per Web Page" vs "Per Website"]
- 15:37:34 [shadi]
- DF: approach of calculating over all pages is what we do
- 15:37:37 [gavinevans]
- q+
- 15:37:54 [shadi]
- ...but some may argue that this could raise discussion
- 15:38:02 [shadi]
- ack mary
- 15:39:18 [shadi]
- ..."Per Website" loses quantitative aspects
- 15:40:01 [shadi]
- EV: in The Netherlands it is done the other way around
- 15:40:27 [shadi]
- DF: "Per Web Page" can mask issues, like CAPTCHA that is critical
- 15:41:12 [shadi]
- ..."Per Website" is more sensitive and forces people to look at the issues more closely
- 15:41:31 [shadi]
- ...people can also add their own scores approach on top
- 15:41:54 [shadi]
- q?
- 15:41:54 [shadi]
- q+
- 15:42:39 [Detlev]
- hello, can of worms,,
- 15:42:51 [shadi]
- GE: maybe could come up with an approach to measure the aggregate score
- 15:42:55 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 15:43:12 [shadi]
- ...like multiply certain types of issues with a factor
- 15:43:17 [shadi]
- ack gavin
- 15:43:20 [shadi]
- q- later
- 15:44:23 [shadi]
- ...often get asked to provide a score for organizations
- 15:45:32 [Vivienne]
- zakim, ack me
- 15:45:32 [Zakim]
- unmuting Vivienne
- 15:45:33 [Zakim]
- I see shadi on the speaker queue
- 15:46:06 [shadi]
- VC: difference between WCAG 1.0 and WCAG 2.0 in the level assignment
- 15:46:23 [shadi]
- ...that has impact on scoring
- 15:46:52 [shadi]
- ...gets into controversy
- 15:47:37 [shadi]
- GE: more for research on analyzing different websites that an individual website
- 15:48:52 [MoeKraft]
- q+
- 15:50:07 [shadi]
- ack me
- 15:50:29 [shadi]
- SAZ: sophisticated scoring gets very complex and controversial
- 15:51:16 [shadi]
- ...but intent is to communicate improvement over time
- 15:51:50 [shadi]
- ..."Per Website" better communicates progress but can also cascade serious issues
- 15:51:55 [Detlev]
- q+
- 15:52:18 [shadi]
- MK: should add disclaimer that there is no widely recognized scoring mechanism
- 15:52:23 [shadi]
- ack moe
- 15:52:36 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 15:52:39 [shadi]
- EV: have very tentative text
- 15:53:41 [shadi]
- DF: often have incidental issues that could have significant effect
- 15:54:38 [shadi]
- ...could be a systemic pattern but still has little impact on website after all
- 15:55:49 [Vivienne]
- I'd vote to add the other back in and have 2 choices
- 15:55:54 [Detlev]
- Vote?
- 15:56:10 [Detlev]
- agree with Vivienne to have both in
- 15:56:20 [Liz]
- both in
- 15:57:00 [gavinevans]
- both in
- 15:57:03 [MoeKraft]
- keep both
- 15:57:06 [Detlev]
- Rationale: having both in will gneerate more helpful comments
- 15:57:12 [shadi]
- SAZ: add "Per Website" back in and move discussion to next publication
- 15:57:37 [shadi]
- RESOLUTION: add "Per Website" back in and move discussion to next publication
- 15:57:54 [shadi]
- agenda?
- 15:58:07 [shadi]
- zakim, take up agendum 4
- 15:58:07 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "Face-to-Face Meeting at CSUN" taken up [from shadi]
- 16:00:56 [Detlev]
- no
- 16:01:00 [Detlev]
- I mena yes
- 16:01:13 [Detlev]
- Bye
- 16:01:15 [Vivienne]
- goodnight all.
- 16:01:20 [Liz]
- bye
- 16:01:20 [agarrison]
- bye
- 16:01:24 [Zakim]
- -Detlev
- 16:01:25 [Zakim]
- -Vivienne
- 16:01:26 [Zakim]
- -Alistair
- 16:01:27 [ericvelleman]
- ericvelleman has left #eval
- 16:01:29 [Zakim]
- -Mary_Jo_Mueller
- 16:01:30 [Zakim]
- - +44.179.281.aaaa
- 16:01:30 [gavinevans]
- bye
- 16:01:33 [Zakim]
- -Shadi
- 16:01:34 [Zakim]
- -EricVelleman
- 16:01:36 [gavinevans]
- gavinevans has left #eval
- 16:01:45 [Zakim]
- -Liz
- 16:02:03 [Zakim]
- - +1.978.899.aabb
- 16:02:04 [Zakim]
- WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
- 16:02:04 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Vivienne, Shadi, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Liz, Detlev, EricVelleman, Mike_Elledge, Alistair, +44.179.281.aaaa, +1.978.899.aabb
- 16:07:21 [shadi]
- trackbot, end meeting
- 16:07:21 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 16:07:21 [Zakim]
- sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
- 16:07:29 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 16:07:29 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-eval-minutes.html trackbot
- 16:07:30 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:07:30 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items