IRC log of html-media on 2014-01-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:56:56 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-media
15:56:56 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/21-html-media-irc
15:56:58 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:57:00 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 63342
15:57:00 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:57:01 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:57:01 [trackbot]: Date: 21 January 2014
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16:00:45 [Zakim]: HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:54 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:01:00 [paulc]: zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:01:00 [Zakim]: +paulc; got it
16:01:15 [Zakim]: + +1.650.458.aaaa
16:01:20 [Zakim]: +MarkW
16:01:30 [Zakim]: +pladd
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16:01:45 [Zakim]: +ReimundoGarcia
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16:01:58 [markw]: Zakim, who is on the phone ?
16:01:59 [Zakim]: On the phone I see paulc, +1.650.458.aaaa, MarkW, pladd, ReimundoGarcia
16:02:07 [markw]: Zakim, MarkW is me
16:02:07 [Zakim]: +markw; got it
16:02:27 [pal]: zakim, i am aaaa
16:02:27 [Zakim]: +pal; got it
16:02:30 [Zakim]: + +1.425.936.aabb
16:02:31 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:02:41 [johnsim]: zakim, i am [microsoft]
16:02:41 [Zakim]: ok, johnsim, I now associate you with [Microsoft]
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16:02:52 [ddorwin]: zakim I am aabb
16:02:53 [Zakim]: +glenn
16:03:08 [ddorwin]: zakim, I am aabb
16:03:08 [Zakim]: +ddorwin; got it
16:03:12 [JamilEllis]: list attendees
16:03:27 [JamilEllis]: Zakim, who is on the phone ?
16:03:27 [Zakim]: On the phone I see paulc, pal, markw, pladd, ReimundoGarcia, ddorwin, [Microsoft], glenn
16:03:28 [glenn]: zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:30 [Zakim]: On the phone I see paulc, pal, markw, pladd, ReimundoGarcia, ddorwin, [Microsoft], glenn
16:03:31 [Zakim]: +davide
16:03:31 [Zakim]: +vinay
16:03:41 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
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16:04:00 [Zakim]: -ReimundoGarcia
16:04:06 [Zakim]: +Plh
16:04:45 [Zakim]: +ReimundoGarcia
16:05:02 [paulc]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Jan/0048.html
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16:05:44 [paulc]: scribenick: johnsim
16:05:49 [paulc]: Chair: paulc
16:05:54 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.aa]
16:05:57 [adrianba]: zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
16:05:57 [Zakim]: +adrianba; got it
16:06:03 [adrianba]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:03 [Zakim]: On the phone I see paulc, pal, markw, pladd, ddorwin, [Microsoft], glenn, davide, vinay, [Microsoft.a], Plh, ReimundoGarcia, adrianba
16:06:26 [johnsim]: Topic: Action items and Issues
16:06:28 [JamilEllis]: zakim, ReimundoGarcia is JamilEllis
16:06:28 [Zakim]: +JamilEllis; got it
16:06:39 [Zakim]: +BobLund
16:06:42 [paulc]: ACTION-48?
16:06:42 [trackbot]: ACTION-48 -- Adrian Bateman to Draft a proposal for bug 17673 -- due 2014-01-21 -- OPEN
16:06:42 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/48
16:07:47 [johnsim]: adrianba: in light of David's comments we still need to have more discussion at Microsoft about what we think we want to do, specifically around the point that it is not feasible to tell if a particular encoding of ISOBMFF is supported
16:08:18 [johnsim]: adrianba: also consequences for "istypesupported" - additional argument - but haven't had time to discuss in detail
16:09:05 [johnsim]: paulc: this item is on top of the list and blocks 24207 - need to decide if we are blocking on heartbeat until we get this item done.
16:09:30 [johnsim]: adrianba: direction the discussion is going may invalidate the discussion at TPAC
16:09:31 [markw]: markw has joined #html-media
16:09:38 [paulc]: ACTION-48 is due next week
16:09:56 [adrianba]: ACTION-48 due next week
16:09:56 [trackbot]: Set ACTION-48 Draft a proposal for bug 17673 due date to 2014-01-27.
16:10:32 [adrianba]: ACTION-51?
16:10:32 [trackbot]: ACTION-51 -- Jerry Smith to Write a proposal for bug 18515 -- due 2014-01-20 -- CLOSED
16:10:32 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/51
16:11:14 [johnsim]: Topic: EME heatbeat priority items
16:11:47 [johnsim]: paulc: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673
16:12:05 [paulc]: ACTION-48?
16:12:05 [trackbot]: ACTION-48 -- Adrian Bateman to Draft a proposal for bug 17673 -- due 2014-01-27 -- OPEN
16:12:05 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/48
16:12:33 [johnsim]: paulc: assume that action 48 is pertinent here. Comments 36 and 37 were made since the last meeting
16:12:58 [johnsim]: b) Bug 24027 - Define a generic Initialization Data solution for ISO Base Media File Format and/or Common Encryption (will be used by Clear Key) https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24027
16:13:13 [ddorwin]: q+
16:13:16 [johnsim]: paulc: assume nothing to discuss about this until we do the dependent bug
16:13:23 [paulc]: ack dd
16:13:29 [johnsim]: paulc: should we stick with David's proposal that they block a heartbeat
16:14:09 [paulc]: See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24027#c1
16:14:11 [johnsim]: ddorwin: we can start working on what we would like to be in it. for cenc it should be a pssh. the format of pssh can be discussed if not decided
16:14:36 [johnsim]: paulc: anyone willing to put a proposal on the table as reflected in comment 1 - shape of pssh boxes for clear key
16:14:39 [paulc]: "this bug boils down to defining the shape of PSSH boxes for ClearKey and defining the ClearKey identifier for CENC."
16:15:15 [adrianba]: q+ to talk about heartbeat
16:15:20 [johnsim]: ddorwin: good for people to at least think about - what do they want in this besides the ability to have some number of KIDs - other things we should allow for in the format
16:15:20 [paulc]: ack ad
16:15:20 [Zakim]: adrianba, you wanted to talk about heartbeat
16:16:09 [johnsim]: adrianba: heartbeat draft - i think that David's list is good aspiration - and identify the changes in backlog which are likely to be the most impactful
16:16:50 [joesteele]: q+
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16:17:00 [paulc]: ack joe
16:17:09 [johnsim]: paulc: chairs busy with other docs - give task force this week and next week - but would like to see us moving forward with a consensus in the task force.
16:17:27 [johnsim]: joesteele: good to know how long until the following heartbeat
16:18:27 [johnsim]: paulc: no maximum time between heartbeats but working group is trying to get things out every 2-3 months, reasonable to execute on David's list today and next week, a little concerned about amount of editing
16:18:54 [johnsim]: paulc: reasonable to wait until next week and see where we stand. but if we don't have proposals on the table we are simply blocked.
16:19:08 [johnsim]: paulc: willing to action on 24027?
16:19:18 [joesteele]: nothing to add to what David has suggested
16:20:02 [paulc]: ACTION: johnsim to provide a proposal for bug 24207 to define the shape of CleanKey PSSH boxes
16:20:02 [trackbot]: Error finding 'johnsim'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/users>.
16:20:20 [adrianba]: ACTION: john to provide a proposal for bug 24207 to define the shape of CleanKey PSSH boxes
16:20:20 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-63 - Provide a proposal for bug 24207 to define the shape of cleankey pssh boxes [on John Simmons - due 2014-01-28].
16:21:13 [johnsim]: c) Bug 24227 - Rename "closed" event to "close" https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24227 Status: Discussed at Jan 14 meeting with no objections: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24227#c1
16:21:33 [johnsim]: paulc: fixed since yesterday - this morning
16:21:53 [johnsim]: d) Bug 23619 - Change MediaKeyError to extend DOMError and use strings for error names https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23619 Status: Current proposal summarized in: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23619#c7
16:22:44 [johnsim]: paulc: there is a proposal in comment 7, we discussed very briefly last week
16:22:53 [paulc]: Depends on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21798
16:23:05 [johnsim]: ddorwin: waiting to define the errors - but can be implemented without the actual errors
16:23:12 [johnsim]: paulc: this is on the editor's list?
16:23:16 [johnsim]: ddorwin: i believe so
16:23:46 [paulc]: Error code discussion is at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0011.html
16:24:23 [johnsim]: paulc: minimum required for heartbeat is what David described above
16:24:58 [paulc]: Topic: Simplifying how InitData is identified
16:24:59 [paulc]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Jan/0037.html
16:25:37 [adrianba]: q+
16:25:38 [johnsim]: paulc: any comments on this thread? Sitting dormant since Jan 14
16:25:51 [paulc]: ack ad
16:26:23 [johnsim]: paulc: this is dependent on what we do on action 48?
16:26:35 [paulc]: Related to the outcome of 17673 and ACTION-48
16:26:40 [johnsim]: adrianba: i think they are tied together
16:27:11 [glenn]: q+
16:27:50 [johnsim]: adrianba: i want to figure out what our roll-up position is, and have more discussion with people like david singer
16:28:03 [paulc]: ack glenn
16:28:20 [johnsim]: glenn: is this related to representation of initdata or identification of parameters in the initdata?
16:28:55 [johnsim]: adrianba: not sure i understand question - bug action 48 relates to is to update the text to provide any of the boxes associated with encyrption in the initdata, not just the pssh boxes
16:29:36 [johnsim]: adrianba: this bug - when need key fires - rather than saying this is video mp4, which says ISOBFF, but not anything about the form of the encryption, it says it is common encyrption, but then only needs to include pssh boxes
16:29:56 [johnsim]: adrianba: and if a different type, alternate encyrption, then the identifier would be different -
16:29:59 [joesteele]: q+
16:30:03 [paulc]: ack joe
16:30:09 [johnsim]: s/encyrption/encryption/
16:30:28 [johnsim]: joesteele: only two types, common encryption and other?
16:31:08 [johnsim]: adrianba: i think we are saying there would be one format for BMFF (cenc) and something for webm format but don't have another, but if in future for alternative string for that type, what the initdata would look for that
16:32:03 [johnsim]: adrianba: we touched on this last week - we will end up following what we did with MSE and remove the description of formats into separate document with informal registry like we have for MSE and then you would create a new entry there
16:32:25 [johnsim]: joesteele: sounds like this change would be from the browser to the application, would there be a parallel parameter in the createsession?
16:32:54 [johnsim]: adrianba: need key event fires and content type is video mp4, and provides initdata - originally pssh boxes - but discussed at TPAC adding senc information -
16:33:20 [johnsim]: adrianba: then you call createsession, you specify the format there and that indicates the form of the initdata - so matching between those two
16:33:57 [johnsim]: adrianba: ddorwin has raised the issue - even if we made the change for senc - more schemes than common encryption - probably insufficient interface to determine if a browser supports a particular decryption scheme
16:34:23 [johnsim]: adrianba: no way for the browser to say "yes for common encryption but no for something else" so we might have to revisit istypesupported()
16:35:22 [johnsim]: Topic: new bugs
16:35:32 [johnsim]: a) Bug 24322 Reorganize spec by object https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24322
16:35:51 [johnsim]: ddorwin: just a tracking bug, to get spec organized more like mse
16:36:01 [adrianba]: i think this is a good idea - i find it difficult to find things in the spec - but it is editorial only so holding is fine
16:36:03 [johnsim]: paulc: this item is just on hold for now?
16:36:06 [johnsim]: ddorwin: yes
16:36:14 [johnsim]: paulc: any questions on this item. No.
16:36:27 [johnsim]: b) Bug 24323 - Rename "First Time a Key Reference is Encountered" algorithm and remove key ID checks from Container Guidelines subsections https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24323
16:37:13 [johnsim]: ddorwin: noticed we still reference - whether key id is encountered in webm - and then found algorithm was named different from what we intended
16:37:48 [johnsim]: ddorwin: question is what the first algorithm should be - needkey is always fired now - but the real question - indications of encryption which are not initdata -
16:38:28 [johnsim]: ddorwin: so the alternative would be - when initdata is encountered - the real question do we want real flexibility or ease to implement
16:38:38 [johnsim]: paulc: two sub-proposals
16:38:57 [johnsim]: ddorwin: #1 is the only one which is a question about the algorithm.
16:39:02 [paulc]: Should we require Initialization Data and that encountering it be the first indication that the stream may be encrypted?
16:39:06 [joesteele]: q+
16:39:11 [paulc]: ack joe
16:39:23 [johnsim]: joesteele: if i am understanding correctly, i would argue for more flexibility here
16:39:38 [johnsim]: q+
16:39:51 [johnsim]: zakim, [microsoft] is me
16:39:51 [Zakim]: +johnsim; got it
16:40:09 [johnsim]: ack johnsim
16:40:48 [johnsim]: ddorwin: question is what do you do if you fire needkey event without initdata
16:41:04 [johnsim]: joesteele: fire needkey with initdata i had in my back pocket
16:41:26 [johnsim]: ddorwin: algorithm is for when to fire needkey
16:41:32 [ddorwin]: algorithm we're discussing: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#algorithms-encrypted-stream
16:41:42 [adrianba]: ack next
16:41:43 [paulc]: ack [Microsoft]
16:42:15 [johnsim]: paulc: don't have anything further to do on this bug - it would really help if people looked at 24323 and supplied answers
16:42:25 [johnsim]: topic: EME bugs with proposals
16:42:36 [johnsim]: a) Bug 24081 - The READY state is too limiting and should be more like the PENDING state https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24081#c2 Status: See Jan 18 proposal in: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24081#c4
16:43:11 [johnsim]: paulc: is this a "well formed proposal" or lurking questions?
16:43:33 [johnsim]: ddorwin: i guess well formed but not a definitive proposal
16:43:39 [johnsim]: paulc: strawman?
16:43:41 [adrianba]: we're still discussing this at Microsoft
16:43:52 [johnsim]: ddorwin: we could do this but need feedback
16:44:10 [johnsim]: paulc: put this on next week's agenda.
16:45:05 [johnsim]: jdsmith: previous discussion - at the time you wanted to fire an update on ready when you already had keys but proactively renewing for a future date. not sure if the current model was broken.
16:45:20 [johnsim]: jdsmith: could you clarify if there is a hard blocker here?
16:45:46 [Zakim]: -BobLund
16:46:01 [johnsim]: ddorwin: mainly, do the states make sense. we probably could work around the current model and make the proactive model work, but what is the value of pending versus ready
16:46:08 [paulc]: q+
16:46:18 [johnsim]: ddorwin: why am I on pending and when should the ready event get fired.
16:46:58 [johnsim]: jdsmith: need to sync with johnsim on this proposal.
16:47:31 [paulc]: State diagram is near: http://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media/#media-element-restictions
16:47:48 [paulc]: ack paulc
16:47:49 [ddorwin]: Direct link: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#session-state-transitions
16:48:18 [johnsim]: b) ACTION-51: Write a proposal for bug 18515 [Jerry] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/51 Status: DONE. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18515#c16
16:48:33 [johnsim]: paulc: from what i can see there are not any responses
16:49:20 [johnsim]: jdsmith: the issue of that proposal is you have a situation where you need to renew keys and haven't received updated keys but played all the data,
16:49:40 [johnsim]: jdsmith: waiting even from media element, but we have discussed is using the waiting event to be waiting on a media key
16:49:57 [johnsim]: jdsmith: proposal is to declare what you are waiting for - media or media keys
16:50:14 [johnsim]: paulc: david or mark, have you reviewed this proposal?
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16:50:35 [johnsim]: ddorwin: what we discussed, need to read through details and get feedback internally
16:50:37 [joesteele]: q+
16:51:10 [johnsim]: paulc: carry this forward to next week's meeting (Action 51 - bug 18515)
16:51:18 [johnsim]: Topic: Other EME bugs
16:51:27 [johnsim]: a) Bug 24216 - setMediaKeys() needs more specification https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24216 Status: Adrian indicated that Jerry was looking at this bug in the Jan 14 meeting.
16:51:33 [joesteele]: q-
16:52:01 [johnsim]: b) Bug 24270 - MediaKeySession State Definitions should be normative https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24270 Status: Adrian agreed to update the bug from discussion on Jan 14.
16:52:05 [paulc]: See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24270#c2
16:52:45 [johnsim]: paulc: others can look at that entry - i don't have anything else on the agenda. Any other issues/bugs to discuss? About 19 outstanding bugs, we have touched on 11 today - maybe 12
16:53:16 [paulc]: rrsagent, generate minutes
16:53:16 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/21-html-media-minutes.html paulc
16:53:29 [johnsim]: paulc: propose we adjourn and meet again next week with EME bugs as our major agenda
16:53:59 [Zakim]: -pladd
16:54:00 [Zakim]: -davide
16:54:00 [Zakim]: -adrianba
16:54:01 [Zakim]: -paulc
16:54:01 [Zakim]: -Plh
16:54:01 [Zakim]: -glenn
16:54:02 [Zakim]: -vinay
16:54:02 [Zakim]: -johnsim
16:54:04 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
16:54:04 [Zakim]: -JamilEllis
16:54:06 [Zakim]: -markw
16:54:08 [Zakim]: -ddorwin
16:54:26 [Zakim]: -pal
16:54:26 [Zakim]: HTML_WG()11:00AM has ended
16:54:26 [Zakim]: Attendees were paulc, +1.650.458.aaaa, pladd, markw, pal, +1.425.936.aabb, glenn, ddorwin, davide, vinay, Plh, adrianba, JamilEllis, BobLund, johnsim
16:56:08 [adrianba]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:56:08 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/21-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
16:56:11 [adrianba]: rrsagent, make logs public
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