15:42:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:42:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/20-dpub-irc
15:42:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:42:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
15:42:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:42:26 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
15:42:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:42:27 <trackbot> Date: 20 January 2014
15:47:59 <xiaoqian_> xiaoqian_ has joined #dpub
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15:58:26 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
15:58:34 <Zakim> + +1.201.387.aaaa
15:58:47 <tzviya> zakim, aaaa is tzviya
15:58:47 <Zakim> +tzviya; got it
15:58:48 <Zakim> + +1.617.301.aabb
15:58:59 <Vincent_Gros> Vincent_Gros has joined #dpub
15:59:01 <liza> zakim, aabb is liza
15:59:01 <Zakim> +liza; got it
15:59:03 <xiaoqian> zakim, call xiaoqian-mobile
15:59:03 <Zakim> ok, xiaoqian; the call is being made
15:59:04 <ivan> Regrets: Luc, dauwe, vlad, TomDN, Laura_Flower
15:59:05 <Zakim> +Xiaoqian
15:59:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
15:59:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:42 <Zakim> + +1.734.904.aacc
15:59:49 <ivan> zakim, code?
15:59:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
15:59:52 <Zakim> + +1.505.603.aadd
16:00:06 <Zakim> +ivan
16:00:12 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:00:18 <Zakim> +??P31
16:00:26 <mgylling> zakim, ??P31 is me
16:00:26 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
16:00:28 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #DPUB
16:00:36 <ivan> Guest: Xiaoqian Wu (W3C)
16:00:55 <azaroth> zakim, who is here?
16:00:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see tzviya, liza, Xiaoqian, [IPcaller], +1.734.904.aacc, +1.505.603.aadd, ivan, Stearns, mgylling
16:00:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see azaroth, Bill_Kasdorf, Vincent_Gros, liza, tzviya, dauwhe, mgylling, xiaoqian, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, astearns, plinss, Liam|Snow, trackbot
16:01:02 <azaroth> zakim aadd is me
16:01:10 <azaroth> zakim, aadd is me
16:01:10 <ivan> zakim, aadd is azaroth
16:01:11 <Zakim> +azaroth; got it
16:01:11 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
16:02:40 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
16:02:43 <mgylling> zakim, who is here?
16:02:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see tzviya, liza, Xiaoqian, [IPcaller], +1.734.904.aacc, azaroth, ivan, Stearns, mgylling
16:02:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see tmichel, azaroth, Bill_Kasdorf, Vincent_Gros, liza, tzviya, dauwhe, mgylling, xiaoqian, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, astearns, plinss, Liam|Snow, trackbot
16:03:18 <liza> NO PRESSURE
16:03:41 <Zakim> +??P13
16:03:47 <tmichel> zakim, ??P13 is me
16:03:47 <Zakim> +tmichel; got it
16:03:51 <ivan> zakim, aacc is Bill_Kasdorf
16:03:51 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf; got it
16:04:51 <Zakim> +Bert
16:04:52 <liza> AHEM
16:04:59 <ivan> zakim, pick a victim
16:05:00 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose liza
16:05:04 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
16:05:17 <liza> HEY WAIT WHAT
16:05:18 <Zakim> +JeanKaplansky
16:05:41 <mgylling> scribe: liza
16:05:52 <liza> OKAY FINE
16:05:58 <JeanK> JeanK has joined #dpub
16:06:25 <liza> Markus: One additional agenda item: guest introduction and collaboration between Chinese Digital Publishing Community Group
16:06:35 <liza> DON'T TEMPT ME
16:06:46 <mgylling> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jan/0019.html<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jan/0013.html
16:06:49 <liza> Markus: Last week's minutes need approval
16:07:02 <Zakim> +madi
16:07:03 <liza> Markus: Approved
16:07:06 <ivan> Topic: Chinese DPUB Community Group
16:07:20 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
16:07:28 <liza> Markus: Xiaoqian is introduced
16:07:30 <Zakim> +duga
16:07:37 <liza> Xiaoquin: You can call me Cindy
16:07:46 <Madi> Madi has joined #dpub
16:08:12 <Madi> Welcome Cindy!
16:08:35 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
16:08:45 <liza> Xiaoqian: Digital Publishing Interest Group formed in China to address copyright issues
16:08:47 <madi> madi has joined #dpub
16:09:39 <liza> Xiaoqian: There is eagerness to enter this industry, but not enough standardization. Group formed to share concerns about content protection
16:10:11 <liza> Xiaogian: We want to see cooperation between the Chinese industry and other countries despite differences in language and culture
16:10:39 <ivan> q+
16:10:49 <liza> Xiaoqian: We want to translate documents into Chinese and get Chinese industry to publish their concerns to the rest of the world
16:10:58 <liza> Markus: This group was started just last week
16:11:13 <liza> Markus: How do we expect your community group and this industry group to collaborate?
16:11:21 <liza> s/industry/interest/
16:11:35 <liza> Markus: Do you expect to gather requirements that are specific to China?
16:11:48 <liza> Xiaoqian: Next few months we will focus on information-sharing
16:12:06 <liza> Xiaoqian: We have most of the major producers in China now, but need more
16:12:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:12:52 <mgylling> ack ivan
16:12:59 <liza> Xiaoqian: I would like to help using the community group to add to any specifications
16:13:24 <liza> Ivan: Discussions in that community group are in Chinese
16:13:48 <liza> Ivan: A few weeks ago a team member named Kenny has joined that group
16:13:59 <liza> Ivan: So we have a person who will be on both groups
16:14:14 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:14:39 <liza> Bill_Kasdorf: Is your focus on books or other publications?
16:15:03 <liza> Xiaoqian: Focus is on EPUB, most of our members are from the IT industry
16:16:13 <liza> Xiaoqian: Don't see much interest in journals/magazines yet
16:16:56 <liza> Markus: Next, this week's focus theme
16:17:06 <ivan> Topic: content adaption task force
16:17:34 <liza> Markus: This task force's name is a little confusing, so let's go back to the original intent of the task force
16:18:06 <liza> Markus: In digital publishing, where the open web platform is used in one way or another, the ecosystem has applied "extensions" to the platform in order to achieve some interaction or behavioral goal
16:18:31 <liza> Markus: One of the primary tasks of this IG is identify "problems" in the OWP, and this task force is therefore important to our mission
16:18:51 <liza> Markus: There are things that digital publishing needs to do but cannot without extensions, which may be declarative or scripted
16:19:09 <liza> Markus: One of the goals then is to identify what extensions are in use today
16:19:31 <liza> Tzviya: Agree that's how it started out, got a little fuzzy but we're bringing it back to that intent
16:19:54 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC6#Behavioral_6
16:19:55 <liza> Tzviya: Let's start with one of the existing use cases that's a little less familiar to the group
16:20:49 <liza> Tzviya: Scroll direction, which can be done with CSS but is difficult (if at all). The goal is to allow the publisher to override the scroll direction that is the default for the language/script
16:21:30 <liza> Tzviya: I've seen this documented by one particular retailer. Has anyone seen this elsewhere?
16:21:46 <liza> Markus: I'm confused by whether this is the controlled by the publisher or the user/reader
16:21:55 <liza> Tzviya: Probably both?
16:22:17 <liza> brady_duga: Maybe the intent was for the publisher to do one thing and the reader to override that?
16:22:31 <liza> Tzviya: Need to go back to the source to clarify
16:22:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:23:05 <liza> brady_duga: I'm confused by why you'd change the scroll direction independent of the layout
16:23:34 <Bert> q+ to ask if this is about flipping pages to the right vs down, rather than the scroll bar?
16:23:43 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:24:22 <liza> Bill_Kasdorf: Seems like 2 potential layers of override: publisher overrides reading system, user needs to override publisher?
16:24:30 <liza> Tzviya: Let's focus on the publisher use case
16:24:36 <mgylling> ack Bert
16:24:36 <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to ask if this is about flipping pages to the right vs down, rather than the scroll bar?
16:25:22 <liza> Bert: Depending on how the scrolling is laid out, it affects how the text is divided into columns
16:25:35 <liza> Bert: Is this related to the direction in which the pages scroll?
16:25:57 <liza> Bert: RL/LR, or up-down (like a flip chart)
16:26:23 <liza> Tzviya: Maybe should've taken a different use case :)
16:26:44 <liza> Tzviya: The goal here was to provide an example of a _type_ of UC we are working on (rather than the specifics of this one)
16:26:52 <mgylling> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC7#Behavioral_7
16:27:17 <liza> Markus: UC7 is also from a retailer
16:27:37 <liza> Tzviya: I have seen this in more than one retailer's documentation
16:27:52 <liza> Tzviya: A single soundtrack loops without interruption throughout the publication
16:28:26 <liza> Tzviya: This illustrates the kind of 'behavior' we're trying to capture. Some kind of markup or attribute within the file causes a _behavior_
16:29:03 <liza> Tzviya: We want to see that a given behavior is common across platform, and not otherwise expressible in existing standards
16:29:15 <liza> Ivan: Probably no way to express the soundtrack UC in CSS
16:29:42 <liza> Tzviya: Next steps: more categories of use cases where we see behaviors like this illustrated
16:30:01 <liza> Tzviya: I would like to hear from the group what other categories of behaviors exist
16:30:19 <liza> Tzviya: I'm not at all familiar with how these cases are being used outside my own work
16:30:29 <JeanK> q+
16:30:50 <liza> Markus: We know that multiple vendors support this, but we don't know how widely used the feature is by publishers
16:31:42 <liza> ???: There is only vendor that currently supports this with fixed layout (in children's books mostly)
16:32:06 <astearns> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#audio  has a loop attribute
16:32:31 <liza> Markus: How do we get a group who can help you progress in collecting new categories
16:32:52 <liza> Tzviya: I encourage people to post UCs to the wiki/list as I'll be absent for a few weeks
16:32:56 <JeanK> Liza - the ??? was Jean K. Sorry...
16:33:11 <liza> Thanks Jean, thought it was probably you
16:33:23 <liza> Ivan: Nagging on the mailing list ++
16:33:26 <ivan> q+
16:33:40 <liza> Markus: I'm thinking about dictionaries and glossaries as well
16:34:10 <liza> Tzviya: Other examples that aren't yet documented: being able to purchase a dictionary and incorporate it into a book
16:34:16 <mgylling> astearns: loop yes, but not over multiple documents, and also the dedicated identification of "background track" means that the reading system can provide dedicated UI (in the menu, not in content view) to turn the darn thing off
16:34:23 <liza> Tzviya: Section in EPUB spec about incorporating indexes
16:34:33 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC#Behavioral_1
16:35:13 <mgylling> q?
16:35:28 <mgylling> ack JeanK
16:35:45 <mgylling> ack ivan
16:36:11 <liza> Ivan: Do want to talk about how these examples would be expressed as attributes?
16:36:19 <liza> Tzviya: Indeed, next item on the agenda
16:37:30 <liza> Tzviya: New name: 'Behavior Refinements'?
16:37:39 <liza> Ivan: What about 'Behavioral Extensions'?
16:37:49 <liza> Tzviya: Too overloaded?
16:38:06 <liza> brady_duga: They're equally confusing to me
16:38:37 <liza> brady_duga: 3 parties involved: author/publisher, reading system, and user: behavior all may be different
16:38:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> How about "additional behaviors"?
16:39:09 <liza> brady_duga: What is the interaction among all these parties that might want to change e.g. scroll direction of the publication. This is the group that's dealing with the intersection of all those parties
16:39:13 <JeanK> not really additional... More like conflicting behaviors.
16:39:16 <liza> Markus: Yes, but this isn't about _styling_ behaviors
16:39:51 <liza> brady_duga: Problem for reading systems where we want to be able to provide the user with alternate fonts: body font (which may be meaningful or not), RS font default, user font preference
16:40:16 <liza> brady_duga: It's very difficult to provide styling overrides in a sensible way with current technologies
16:40:20 <JeanK> OH!!! "UI specific behavioral layers"
16:40:36 <liza> brady_duga: Does this belong in this taskforce, or a styling one?
16:40:47 <azaroth> q+
16:40:49 <liza> Tzviya: More styling, doesn't affect the behavior of the publication
16:41:09 <liza> brady_duga: Argument for behavioral taskforce: it's a negotiation between the user and content about how the content will be displayed
16:41:27 <JeanK> q+
16:41:35 <liza> brady_duga: Styling & Layout is about what's missing from styling support
16:41:46 <liza> brady_duga: This UC feels more about behavioral negotiation
16:42:05 <liza> Tzviya: This borders on the Pearson EDUPUB distinctions about classes
16:42:46 <liza> Tzviya: EDUPUB profile for EPUB has 3 layers of classes; we've talked about applying @epub-type to some of these layers
16:43:19 <liza> Tzviya: 'Literal' classes are author intent. If a 'letter' in a publication has the address right-aligned, this cannot be overriden
16:43:32 <mgylling> ack azaroth
16:43:32 <liza> Markus: So where do we want to put negotiation-related issues
16:43:54 <liza> azaroth: I don't see how the background sound isn't just also styling?
16:44:09 <liza> azaroth: The user doesn't interact with the audio
16:44:12 <liza> (except to turn it off)
16:44:19 <liza> (because omg)
16:44:27 <azaroth> (+1!)
16:44:44 <liza> Markus: The reading system would have a behavior to allow the user to interact with this background audio
16:45:00 <liza> Markus: "Do you want to turn this crap off? [Yes / Hell Yes]"
16:45:30 <liza> Markus: I agree that the distinction is murky
16:45:46 <liza> Tzviya: What is the definition of "behavior" vs. "style"?
16:46:30 <liza> brady_duga: My view: "style" is about allowing an author to make the content look good. Doesn't involve the user. Behavioral adaptive content is what happens when the _user_ wants to change the styling
16:47:31 <liza> Markus: Looking at existing UCs, indexes etc. are semantic enrichments from the POV of the publisher; different from your definition?
16:48:04 <liza> brady_duga: There might be some user interactions between glossaries/dictionaries that would be covered here
16:48:19 <azaroth> q+ to suggest Perhaps instead of having use cases that we can't fulfill currently, start at zero with assigning *existing* functionality into the topic or not, so we get a better idea of it without being distracted by the complex UCs
16:48:26 <liza> Tzviya: e.g. tapping on an index term and displaying that term would go here?
16:48:35 <liza> brady_duga: Yes, because the user is interacting with the content
16:48:45 <liza> Markus: Works with the notes UC very well
16:49:29 <liza> Markus: To date, reading systems do only system-wide dictionaries if any
16:49:50 <liza> Markus: With additional markup the user can decide which dictionaries to add
16:49:50 <mgylling> q?
16:49:56 <ivan> ack JeanK
16:49:57 <mgylling> ack JeanK
16:50:23 <liza> JeanK: Behavioral or UI "layers": some things we can include in the markup or CSS as a trigger to hang behavior on
16:50:44 <liza> JeanK: I don't see turning on or off content or modifying display as 'styling'
16:51:05 <liza> JeanK: These are features that can be continually overridden all the way back to the content level
16:51:28 <liza> JeanK: Analogous to the CSS cascade; overrides change the state of the publication
16:51:34 <mgylling> ack azaroth
16:51:34 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to suggest Perhaps instead of having use cases that we can't fulfill currently, start at zero with assigning *existing* functionality into the topic or not, so
16:51:37 <liza> Tzviya: Like progressive enhancement?
16:51:38 <Zakim> ... we get a better idea of it without being distracted by the complex UCs
16:51:56 <liza> brady_duga: Do you mean this should exclude things that should involve styling, or is bigger than styling?
16:52:22 <liza> JeanK: user-modified font sizes, etc. become a UI feature; the publisher doesn't have control over that behavior
16:52:56 <liza> azaroth: Be nice to pick existing functionality (rather than new complicated use cases) to get a better idea of what's in or out
16:53:19 <liza> azaroth: Without worrying about difficult things like scroll direction or audio/video, which have other considerations like UI elements to control those
16:54:04 <liza> JeanK: +1, also add: accessibility features that are also a part of UIs, like which voice to use
16:54:28 <Zakim> -Xiaoqian
16:54:35 <liza> Markus: If we go with Brady's definition of the task force about user negotiation, then accessibility plays a role
16:54:49 <liza> Markus: Accessibility group is actually 'Accessibility & Personalization', so there's overlap
16:55:57 <liza> Tzviya: 'User input' is critical to this behavior category, even though that's not where we started
16:56:12 <liza> Markus: Yes, we tried to start with extensions in the wild today, regardless of whether they were user-modifiable
16:56:23 <Zakim> -ivan
16:56:28 <liza> Ivan: Indexes do not seem to fall into this
16:56:34 <liza> Markus: Agreed
16:56:49 <liza> Tzviya: We need to gather examples of user input, but we don't need to be limited to that
16:57:05 <ivan> zakim, code?
16:57:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
16:57:09 <liza> brady_duga: It's cases where the user input & the original authorship might be in conflict and need to be negotiated
16:57:26 <Zakim> +ivan
16:57:46 <liza> Tzviya: I'm comfortable with that as long as everyone else is
16:58:25 <liza> Markus: We've recognized that the difference between styling and behavior is fuzzy, it's OK if it's not a clear distinction
16:58:39 <liza> Ivan: We should postpone @epub-type discussion for more time later
16:58:53 <liza> Markus: We could do that on the list this week
16:59:03 <liza> Tzviya: NAME???
16:59:14 <liza> Markus: 'Behavioral Extensions'
16:59:44 <liza> Tzviya: brady_duga is on the hook to add more use cases
16:59:56 <liza> JeanK: "Behavioral UI Extensions?"
17:00:17 <liza> Ivan: Cool URLs don't change
17:00:40 <liza> Markus: Next Monday's agenda?
17:01:25 <liza> Markus: Bill_Kasdorf ready for next week?
17:01:59 <liza> Bill_Kasdorf: Postpone because Ivan not available
17:02:15 <liza> Markus: Liza and I will decide by fiat
17:02:15 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:02:25 <Zakim> -madi
17:02:26 <Zakim> -azaroth
17:02:28 <Zakim> -liza
17:02:29 <Zakim> -duga
17:02:30 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:02:30 <Zakim> -ivan
17:02:30 <Zakim> -JeanKaplansky
17:02:30 <Zakim> -tzviya
17:02:32 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
17:02:35 <Zakim> -mgylling
17:02:37 <Zakim> -Bert
17:02:40 <Zakim> -tmichel
17:02:41 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
17:02:41 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.201.387.aaaa, tzviya, +1.617.301.aabb, liza, Xiaoqian, [IPcaller], +1.734.904.aacc, +1.505.603.aadd, ivan, Stearns, mgylling, azaroth, tmichel, Bill_Kasdorf,
17:02:41 <Zakim> ... Bert, JeanKaplansky, madi, duga
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