IRC log of html-a11y on 2014-01-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

23:00:46 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
23:00:46 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/13-html-a11y-irc
23:00:48 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
23:00:48 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #html-a11y
23:00:50 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2119
23:00:50 [JatinderMann]: JatinderMann has joined #html-a11y
23:00:50 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_HTML AT()6:00PM scheduled to start now
23:00:51 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
23:00:51 [trackbot]: Date: 13 January 2014
23:00:51 [MarkS]: agenda?
23:00:54 [MarkS]: agenda+ Review Action items taken up at last meeting
23:00:54 [MarkS]: agenda+ Revisit Bug 23980 RE: Naming of focusRing methods http://j.mp/L3I6tf
23:00:54 [MarkS]: agenda+ Continue Bug Walkthrough (next up: 23984-23987)
23:00:54 [MarkS]: agenda+ Publication path/timeline for Canvas (from PaulC) http://j.mp/KfCUkH
23:00:55 [MarkS]: agenda+ Next Meeting
23:01:03 [MarkS]: zakim, who is on the phone
23:01:03 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', MarkS
23:01:08 [MarkS]: zakim, who is on the phone?
23:01:08 [Zakim]: WAI_HTML AT()6:00PM has not yet started, MarkS
23:01:09 [Zakim]: On IRC I see JatinderMann, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, IanPouncey, davidb, MarkS, janina, cabanier_, hober, trackbot
23:01:51 [MarkS]: zakim, this is WAI_HTML
23:01:51 [Zakim]: ok, MarkS; that matches WAI_HTML AT()6:00PM
23:01:59 [MarkS]: zakim, who is on the phone?
23:01:59 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, marks, [Microsoft]
23:02:10 [MarkS]: zakim, [Microsoft] is Jatinder
23:02:10 [Zakim]: +Jatinder; got it
23:02:17 [MarkS]: scribe: MarkS
23:03:08 [MarkS]: zakim, agenda?
23:03:08 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
23:03:09 [Zakim]: 1. Review Action items taken up at last meeting [from MarkS]
23:03:09 [Zakim]: 2. Revisit Bug 23980 RE: Naming of focusRing methods http://j.mp/L3I6tf [from MarkS]
23:03:09 [Zakim]: 3. Continue Bug Walkthrough (next up: 23984-23987) [from MarkS]
23:03:09 [Zakim]: 4. Publication path/timeline for Canvas (from PaulC) http://j.mp/KfCUkH [from MarkS]
23:03:10 [Zakim]: 5. Next Meeting [from MarkS]
23:03:37 [MarkS]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_of_focusRing_method_naming#Summary
23:04:06 [Zakim]: +cabanier
23:04:09 [plh]: plh has joined #html-a11y
23:04:25 [Zakim]: +Plh
23:04:56 [MarkS]: zakim, take up item 1
23:04:56 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Review Action items taken up at last meeting" taken up [from MarkS]
23:06:01 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
23:06:24 [MarkS]: zakim, who is making noise?
23:06:35 [Zakim]: MarkS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Rich_Schwerdtfeger (25%), marks (5%), Jatinder (14%), cabanier (20%), [Microsoft] (49%)
23:06:36 [MarkS]: zakim, [Microsoft] is PaulC
23:06:38 [Zakim]: +PaulC; got it
23:06:51 [paulc]: paulc has joined #html-a11y
23:07:36 [MarkS]: MS: I will follow up with Jay Munro regarding the two action items on him for last week.
23:07:41 [MarkS]: zakim, next item
23:07:41 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Revisit Bug 23980 RE: Naming of focusRing methods http://j.mp/L3I6tf" taken up [from MarkS]
23:07:52 [MarkS]: -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_of_focusRing_method_naming#Summary Summary
23:08:21 [MarkS]: MS: drawFocusIfNeeded seems to be a favorite at this point.
23:08:41 [MarkS]: JM: I am OK with that
23:08:53 [MarkS]: RS: : I am OK with that
23:09:08 [MarkS]: s/JM/JMann
23:09:24 [MarkS]: JMann: drawFocusIfNeeded seems to solve all the issues I originally raised.
23:09:56 [MarkS]: ...talked about splitting the methods?
23:10:13 [MarkS]: RS: Ian originally wanted to have both together to make it easier on developers. I still think that is a good idea.
23:10:36 [MarkS]: RC: If we change the name and clarify purpose in spec, there should be no reason to split them up
23:11:14 [MarkS]: JMann: seems like if you are using the 2D context, this is the way to do it. Spoke with Graphic designers that understand this concept
23:11:31 [MarkS]: RESOLUTION to change drawSystemFocusRing to drawFocusIfNeeded
23:12:04 [MarkS]: zakim, next item
23:12:04 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Continue Bug Walkthrough (next up: 23984-23987)" taken up [from MarkS]
23:12:07 [plh]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&component=CR%20HTML%20Canvas%202D%20Context&list_id=30985&order=Importance&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced
23:12:25 [MarkS]: -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23984 23984 Is it possible to implement drawCustomFocusRing? (JM. Moved to Level 2)
23:12:25 [MarkS]: -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23985 23985 drawCustomFocusRing and color scheme (JM. Moved to Level 2)
23:12:25 [MarkS]: -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23986 23986 Current default path
23:12:25 [MarkS]: -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23987 23987 Empty path and drawSystemFocusRing
23:12:53 [MarkS]: PLH: some of these are still assigned to CR component
23:13:34 [MarkS]: RS: 23984 should not be in the list because it is being moved to L2
23:14:01 [MarkS]: ... 23985 same thing
23:14:24 [MarkS]: JMann: 23986, which path actually gets drawn?
23:14:38 [MarkS]: PLH: I think you are talking about 23987
23:15:06 [MarkS]: JMann: if you call it immediately, what happens?
23:15:08 [MarkS]: RC: depends on what you have done previously
23:15:15 [MarkS]: PLH: Assuming you have not done anything
23:15:41 [MarkS]: RC: whatever path is in the canvas at that point, will be the focus area
23:15:53 [MarkS]: PLH: The spec states that there is always a current default path, what is it?
23:16:18 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/2dcontext/html5_canvas_CR/#current-default-path
23:17:02 [MarkS]: JMann: scenario 1, just created canvas, call drawFocusIfNeeded, what happens, and just drew a path and called drawFocusIfNeeded what happens
23:17:27 [MarkS]: PLH: I will amend the bug
23:17:47 [MarkS]: JMann: what do we think should happen?
23:18:04 [MarkS]: PLH: I don't think anything should happen, there is no default path when the canvas element has been created
23:18:29 [MarkS]: JMann: if you call drawFocusIfNeeded before than you have a region associated with that path
23:18:41 [MarkS]: RS: can always have the path be outside the canvas area, nothing gets drawn
23:19:04 [MarkS]: ...it should have a default path of some sort
23:19:23 [MarkS]: RC: by default a fallback element has not region associated with it.
23:19:52 [MarkS]: JMann: I think it should get the bounds of the entire canvas element
23:19:56 [MarkS]: RS: Makes sense
23:20:04 [MarkS]: RC: that is not in the spec right now right?
23:20:12 [MarkS]: RS: no, should be
23:20:37 [MarkS]: RC: should that be in the HTML spec? That is where we talk about fallback content
23:21:25 [MarkS]: RS: What does context.fill do ?
23:21:31 [MarkS]: nothing
23:22:22 [MarkS]: RC: if you bring focus to fallback content, but the associated path has not even been drawn, nothing should happen
23:22:26 [MarkS]: JMann: agree
23:23:02 [MarkS]: JMann: so if I do the beginPath forces UA to cache the last path always.
23:23:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]: For CanvasRenderingContext2D objects, the points and lines added to current default path by these methods must be transformed according to the current transformation matrix before they are added to the path.
23:24:04 [MarkS]: zakim, who is on the phone?
23:24:04 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, marks, Jatinder, cabanier, Plh, PaulC
23:24:27 [MarkS]: RS: 0,0 is path, doesn't go anywhere?
23:24:44 [MarkS]: JMann: i think we should just change algorithm to abort
23:24:59 [MarkS]: RC: you need to update the region
23:25:13 [MarkS]: RS: If you are adding to the path, then yes
23:25:36 [MarkS]: RC: updated a11y api with the bounding box of the element
23:25:55 [MarkS]: RS: we could put a note that says to make sure that you have created a path
23:26:03 [MarkS]: RC: there is always a path
23:26:29 [JatinderMann]: The beginPath() method must empty the list of subpaths in the context's current path so that the it once again has zero subpaths.
23:26:50 [MarkS]: JMann: the moment you call beginPath, you have no path until you build on that path . it's empty
23:27:33 [MarkS]: ... so we draw the bounding of the canvas, or draw the last path, or we draw 0,0 or we ??
23:28:34 [MarkS]: RC: If the current default path is empty, then don't draw anything but set the accessible region back to the original value
23:28:45 [MarkS]: JMann: do we all agree that it is an error case?
23:28:52 [MarkS]: RC: I think it something an author might do
23:29:05 [MarkS]: ...a way to remove the association with the fallback content
23:29:24 [MarkS]: JMann: ah to reset a11y dom
23:29:31 [MarkS]: ...that is a use case
23:29:38 [MarkS]: ...means we shouldn't do nothing
23:30:04 [MarkS]: ...so 0,0 or the entire canvas. I like entire canvas, which is still true, but it may not be a real reset.
23:30:13 [MarkS]: RC: can we say initial value?
23:30:49 [MarkS]: RS: if its the entire canvas the magnifier focuses on entire canvas
23:31:16 [MarkS]: JMann: is there a default location?
23:31:24 [MarkS]: RS: not that I am aware of
23:31:28 [MarkS]: RC: can you make it invisible?
23:31:37 [MarkS]: RS: yes
23:32:11 [MarkS]: JMann: If we can tie it to the initial value (invisible) then that should cover the use case.
23:33:08 [MarkS]: RESOLUTION that initial value should be invisible if author would like to disassociate fallback content with path
23:33:42 [MarkS]: s/invisible/invisible in aapi
23:34:23 [MarkS]: JMann: does this feel buggy or will developers get this concept
23:35:16 [MarkS]: JMann: this should also resolve 23987
23:35:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/AT-APIs/MSAA/States
23:35:42 [MarkS]: RS: states are different on each platform. MSAA has the concept of unavailable
23:35:56 [JatinderMann]: STATE_SYSTEM_INVISIBLE
23:36:29 [MarkS]: ...offscreen means not visible, but not necessarily gone.
23:36:46 [MarkS]: ...that means disabled, so that wouldn't work
23:37:11 [MarkS]: ...if the author really wants to remove it from the AT they should just remove it from the AAPI
23:37:56 [MarkS]: JMann: are we expected developers to delete the element and add it back later on?
23:41:40 [MarkS]: JMann: the recommend approach for removing your controls would be to change the ARIA state or delete the node. Maybe we should just a no op if the path is empty
23:41:48 [MarkS]: RS: so do nothing?
23:41:51 [MarkS]: yes
23:42:12 [MarkS]: JMann: should be as easy as updating the processing model
23:43:09 [MarkS]: RESOLUTION: Update the process to include "if there are zero sub paths in the current path, abort these steps"
23:43:39 [MarkS]: RS: we can close 23986 and 23987 when this is done.
23:44:00 [plh]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23982
23:44:20 [MarkS]: PLH: 23982 focus ring out of canvas is that one closed?
23:45:16 [MarkS]: JMann: I don't think the bug reflects that, but we need to get the spec updated and then update the bug
23:46:15 [richardschwerdtfeger]: It was agreed that the focus ring would be clipped to the bounds of the canvas area but that the location of the corresponding fallback element would not be clipped and would match the current default path passed.
23:46:31 [MarkS]: zakim, agenda?
23:46:31 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
23:46:32 [Zakim]: 3. Continue Bug Walkthrough (next up: 23984-23987) [from MarkS]
23:46:32 [Zakim]: 4. Publication path/timeline for Canvas (from PaulC) http://j.mp/KfCUkH [from MarkS]
23:46:32 [Zakim]: 5. Next Meeting [from MarkS]
23:46:42 [MarkS]: zakim, take up next item
23:46:42 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Publication path/timeline for Canvas (from PaulC) http://j.mp/KfCUkH" taken up [from MarkS]
23:47:28 [plh]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23981
23:48:22 [paulc]: Canvas CR bugs: http://tinyurl.com/kxmqysj
23:49:37 [MarkS]: JMann: I'll have Jay close the bugs as soon as the spec is updated
23:50:03 [richardschwerdtfeger]: "Informs the user of the canvas location for the fallback element, based on the current path. If the given element has focus, draws a focus ring around the current path following the platform or user agent conventions for focus rings as defined by the user agent."
23:50:30 [MarkS]: PC: When will all the changes to the spec be made, and when will the bugs will be closed.
23:50:47 [MarkS]: ...next week we should have an agenda item to confirm these bugs are closed
23:51:21 [MarkS]: RS: I can confirm that 23978 has been completed
23:51:53 [MarkS]: JMann: scrollPathIntoView has been moved to L2 because it requires Path
23:52:35 [plh3]: plh3 has joined #html-a11y
23:53:13 [plh3]: q+ to ask about a potential new issue
23:54:37 [plh3]: " the bounding box of the area to which the user agent is scrolling as the bounding box of the current selection."
23:54:46 [JatinderMann]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23983
23:55:05 [MarkS]: ack plh
23:55:05 [Zakim]: plh, you wanted to ask about a potential new issue
23:55:54 [plh3]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/2dcontext/html5_canvas_CR/#dom-context-2d-drawsystemfocusring
23:56:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/2dcontext/html5_canvas_CR/#dom-context-2d-drawsystemfocusring
23:58:14 [MarkS]: PLH: If i have two checkbox in my canvas and two canvas elements to match, and I call drawFocusIfNeeded. Now, I move focus to the second element, second checkbox and I all drawFocusIfNeeded. I am assuming it does not remove the focus once focus is removed it is up to the author to remove the focus ring
23:58:22 [MarkS]: yes
23:58:46 [MarkS]: RS: also when author calls .focus
23:59:44 [MarkS]: JMann: is dominic in agreement with all of our changes?
23:59:55 [MarkS]: RS: I think we should send him an updated draft
00:00:13 [MarkS]: JMann: I will follow up with Jay to get all changes implemented so we have a new draft.
00:01:35 [MarkS]: PC: I talked to W3C Team and as long as we are removing material to canvas and not adding substantive new material, we can waive the disclosure period, so that is no longer a factor.
00:02:35 [MarkS]: PLH: we have two problems. We have added some text to this spec. Also, with changing the name of the method...
00:03:09 [MarkS]: PC: PLH can you add this to the discussion with Ian Jacobs?
00:03:11 [MarkS]: PLH: OK
00:03:55 [MarkS]: PC: doesn't look like we will have much of a delay going into LC. If we go back into CR what the min time will be. If another disclosure is required, the min length would match the 6 week period anyway, so we should be OK.
00:04:38 [MarkS]: ...main thing is that we need to get this into LC ASAP
00:04:56 [MarkS]: RS: when we get this draft, there is an apple guy that needs to look at it as well.
00:05:20 [MarkS]: RC: I think we have addressed his concerns as well. He may need to be convinced.
00:05:32 [MarkS]: JMann: will be worth it to share our changes and reasoning with him.
00:05:37 [MarkS]: RC: I'll email him.
00:05:48 [MarkS]: JMann: how long to get changes in?
00:06:07 [MarkS]: RC: Should be a small patch, the AAPI stuff might take a few weeks.
00:06:39 [MarkS]: PLH: Need dominic to update implementation in Blink
00:06:46 [MarkS]: JMann: we also need test suites as well
00:07:02 [MarkS]: PLH: I have some tests, but nothing that looks at the AAPI
00:07:27 [plh3]: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/457
00:09:25 [MarkS]: PC: During this week, if the canvas editors are closing out bugs, they should be prepping LC document as well
00:09:25 [plh3]: ACTION: plh to update his tests in https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/457
00:09:25 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-225 - Update his tests in https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/457 [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2014-01-21].
00:09:41 [MarkS]: ...we have to do a CfC, earlier the better
00:09:55 [MarkS]: ...probably what we would do is have a heartbeat for L2 as well
00:10:21 [MarkS]: ...we will be doing heartbeats in early Feb
00:10:47 [MarkS]: zakim, next item
00:10:47 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Next Meeting" taken up [from MarkS]
00:10:55 [Zakim]: -cabanier
00:10:56 [Zakim]: -Jatinder
00:10:56 [MarkS]: MS: same time, same place next week
00:10:56 [Zakim]: -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
00:10:58 [Zakim]: -Plh
00:10:58 [Zakim]: -PaulC
00:11:02 [Zakim]: -marks
00:11:03 [Zakim]: WAI_HTML AT()6:00PM has ended
00:11:03 [Zakim]: Attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, marks, Jatinder, cabanier, Plh, PaulC
00:11:16 [MarkS]: rrsagent, make minutes
00:11:16 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html MarkS
00:12:12 [MarkS]: zakim, bye
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