IRC log of ua on 2014-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:01:32 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
18:01:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-ua-irc
18:01:34 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:01:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
18:01:36 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
18:01:36 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started
18:01:37 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
18:01:38 [trackbot]
Date: 09 January 2014
18:01:40 [allanj]
rrsagent, set logs public
18:01:41 [KimPatch]
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18:01:46 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:02:01 [allanj]
regrets: Jan
18:02:11 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
18:02:20 [allanj]
agenda+ W3 Resource Priorities paper review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0000.html
18:02:22 [allanj]
agenda+ review comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2013Dec/
18:02:35 [allanj]
chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
18:04:16 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:05:31 [Zakim]
+jeanne
18:08:36 [allanj]
scribe: allanj
18:11:14 [jeanne]
[discussion on report on browser penetration statistics]
18:11:30 [allanj]
http://www.sitepoint.com/browser-trends-january-2014-yearly-review/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=SitePoint+Design+Newsletter++23+September+2013&utm_content=SitePoint+Design+Newsletter++23+September+2013+CID_11aba24aeffcd2d18dd51c6981e70aa4&utm_source=CampaignMonitor%20SitePoint&utm_term=Read%20more
18:11:47 [allanj]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
18:12:00 [allanj]
http://gs.statcounter.com/#all-browser-ww-monthly-201312-201312-map
18:21:24 [allanj]
zakim, open item 1
18:21:24 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "W3 Resource Priorities paper review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0000.html" taken up [from allanj]
18:27:43 [allanj]
gl: for @alt it is in the html already, so is downloaded before the resource.
18:28:35 [allanj]
... for other items @longdesc (separate document) would not be load until user request
18:29:14 [allanj]
gl: sample code does not include @alt, which is bad practice.
18:29:32 [allanj]
... should write them
18:30:40 [allanj]
ja: for all the html5 image elements, etc. they are in html and not affected.
18:32:36 [allanj]
ja: does this apply to child elements of the large buckets (embed, object, etc). can lazyload be applied to <param>
18:32:57 [allanj]
gl: concerned about @postpone
18:32:58 [Greg]
The POSTPONE attribute is entirely based on when things are in visible viewport. It says "If the postpone boolean attribute has been specified on an element, the User Agent MUST not start downloading the resource associated with the element until either the bounding box of the element is inside the User Agent's interpretation of the Document's viewport or the element has been styled such...
18:32:59 [Greg]
...that its display property is no longer set to none."
18:33:47 [Greg]
If you're using AT that reads from the DOM, and aren't visual and so don't need to scroll things into view, this will prevent you from reading them.
18:33:59 [allanj]
gl: screen readers don't scroll the viewport, so DOM not updated, and resource not downloaded
18:35:07 [Greg]
How does "postpone" work with searching the page for a string, etc.? If content you haven't scrolled to isn't loaded into the DOM, search returns "no hits"?
18:35:34 [allanj]
ja: perhaps screen reader should scroll the screen as they move, and provide a focus ring
18:36:18 [jeanne]
ja: does search trickle through an iframe?
18:36:28 [Greg]
If search includes content of iFrame, or includes alternative text which (for things like longdesc) aren't loaded automatically with the page, then presumably they would not be searched.
18:38:49 [Greg]
audio and video would also have their text alternatives (captions, transcripts) be external to the page, so postpone could prevent them from being read or searched until scrolled to.
18:40:07 [allanj]
gl: UAAG has SC for the ability to search alternative content. very important for audio and video content
18:43:18 [allanj]
gl: should UAAG have an SC to allow user to override the 'resources' attributes, to make the document download in source code order
18:44:56 [jeanne]
JS: I think we should comment to Web Perf group that the document needs to specify that alternative text [alt, longdesc and ARIA describedby and labeledby attributes] needs to be loaded with the text and not be lazyloaded or postponed.
18:46:07 [jeanne]
Maybe we could say that all the text attributes associated with an image, audio or video should not be lazyloaded.
18:47:06 [allanj]
need clarification that html is downloaded with all attributes, and the dom built. then the resources (images, audio, video, etc) are downloaded.
18:47:40 [allanj]
js: text elements are necessary for a11y
18:48:04 [jeanne]
JS: Postpone elements may not be available to the accessibility APIs.
18:49:35 [allanj]
js: concern about @postpone
18:50:13 [allanj]
ja: the @postpone uses "User Agent's interpretation of the Document's viewport",
18:51:16 [allanj]
... if user loads a page and hits PRINT, then the viewport changes to the entire document, and all resources need to be downloaded, for the printing viewport
18:51:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.381.aaaa
18:51:25 [jeanne]
JS: I am concerned that an @postpone element may never meet the criteria that would allow it to be displayed to a screenreader.
18:51:45 [jeanne]
zakim, aaaa is KFord
18:51:45 [Zakim]
+KFord; got it
18:54:54 [allanj]
... does a browser know where the screen reader point of regard is located, so the resource is loaded.
18:56:15 [allanj]
ja: we are talking about milliseconds, will the user notice
18:56:34 [allanj]
js: need another option so information is available to AT
18:56:36 [jeanne]
JS: We certainly need another option for postpone that will make it available to a screenreader.
18:58:17 [jeanne]
... what would be the screenreader equivalent of scrolling into view.
18:58:59 [jeanne]
JA: That would be a screenreader problem, because the screenreader doesn't communicate its shadow DOM to the browser.
18:59:14 [jeanne]
KF: JAWS has that now, but it doesn't work consistently
18:59:27 [jeanne]
JA: We still need screenreader Focus Ring\
18:59:51 [allanj]
http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/
18:59:59 [allanj]
http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/#attr-postpone
19:01:19 [allanj]
ja: see http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/#resource-priorities-property
19:01:57 [allanj]
user could override all of this through the use of user CSS and !important
19:03:25 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/#the-postpone-attribute
19:04:42 [allanj]
js: overriding by user style sheet needs to be in comment
19:04:54 [jeanne]
JS: It would be important to state clearly in this spec that user stylesheets can override this spec.
19:05:21 [allanj]
gl: why is there 2 ways (html and css) to turn on these resources priorities
19:05:32 [jeanne]
GL: They don't say which takes precedence -- CSS solution or the HTML solution
19:05:55 [allanj]
js: mobile - which doesn't support css well
19:07:34 [jeanne]
GL: they are designed to act the same, but behave differently.
19:07:48 [jeanne]
... they don't even spell lazyload / lazy-load the same.
19:08:01 [allanj]
gl: lazyload (html) vs lazy-load (css)
19:08:13 [jeanne]
... turning off one, would not override the other.
19:08:38 [jeanne]
... the HTML attibutes are not part of the CSS and would not be overridden
19:08:52 [allanj]
gl: which has precedent (the css or the html attribute)
19:08:52 [jeanne]
... by a user stylesheet
19:09:07 [allanj]
ja: and would !important override the html.
19:09:27 [allanj]
js: what about mobile and no user CSS
19:10:07 [allanj]
gl: inpage search, the UA does not give user any feed back that the page has not finished downloading.
19:10:29 [allanj]
... elements not yet downloaded can't be searched.
19:11:18 [allanj]
ja: see Facebook and other infinite scroll implementations
19:11:42 [allanj]
... can't search, bookmark, etc.
19:12:45 [allanj]
gl: if UA is aware that the entire page has not yet been downloaded, it could/should tell the user of this fact.
19:14:28 [jeanne]
JA: Screen magnifiers are using the browser proper.
19:15:06 [jeanne]
JA: for speech users, the mouseless browsing links are part of the HTML and will load.
19:15:40 [jeanne]
JA: I think the lazyload is a matter of milliseconds and we don't have to worry about it, but the @postpone could be a problem
19:17:26 [jeanne]
GL: @postpone has no effect unless something is something is being toggled on and off with display properties.
19:19:09 [allanj]
gl: @postpone does not make anything worse for AT for elements set to display: none
19:19:58 [allanj]
If the postpone boolean attribute has been specified on an element, the User Agent MUST not start downloading the resource associated with the element until either the bounding box of the element is inside the User Agent's interpretation of the Document's viewport or the element has been styled such that its display property is no longer set to none.
19:22:53 [jeanne]
KF: There were more problems caused when the AT didn't honor display none, then the @postpone won't cause a problem blocking display of items set to display none.
19:24:35 [jeanne]
JA: How do we want to handle it?
19:24:39 [allanj]
js: set another conference call to finalize this.
19:24:49 [jeanne]
... schedule a call and turn this into helpful comments.
19:28:22 [Zakim]
-KFord
19:28:40 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:28:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:29:10 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:29:23 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
19:29:25 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:29:28 [Zakim]
-jeanne
19:29:29 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:29:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Kim_Patch, jeanne, +1.425.381.aaaa, KFord
19:29:39 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:29:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:29:54 [allanj]
zakim, please part
19:29:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:38:29 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:38:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:38:37 [allanj]
rrsagent, please part
19:38:37 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items