15:57:01 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:57:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-html-a11y-irc
15:57:03 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:57:05 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:57:05 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 57 minutes ago
15:57:06 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:57:06 Date: 09 January 2014
15:57:12 zakim, agenda?
15:57:12 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:57:13 5. Confirm next meeting [from MarkS]
15:57:19 zakim, clear agenda
15:57:19 agenda cleared
15:58:26 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
15:58:27 Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:58:27 agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:58:27 agenda+ Longdesc Update
15:58:27 agenda+ Canvas 2D Followup
15:58:28 agenda+ ARIA Related Bugs
15:58:29 agenda+ MSE Response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Dec/0051.html
15:58:31 agenda+ Alt Guidance & Next Steps
15:58:37 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media;
15:58:39 agenda+ Bug Triage: Review of Resolved Bugs tracked by TF
15:58:41 agenda+ HTML 5.1 Objectives http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist
15:58:43 agenda+ Other Business
15:58:45 agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:58:50 agenda+ be done
16:00:34 aardrian has joined #html-a11y
16:00:53 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:53 apparently WAI_HTML AT()6:00PM has ended, MarkS
16:00:54 On IRC I see aardrian, RRSAgent, davidb, SteveF, IanPouncey, janina, MarkS, jaymunro, hober, cabanier_, Zakim, trackbot
16:01:15 zakim, agenda?
16:01:16 I see 12 items remaining on the agenda:
16:01:17 1. Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from MarkS]
16:01:17 2. Longdesc Update [from MarkS]
16:01:17 3. Canvas 2D Followup [from MarkS]
16:01:17 4. ARIA Related Bugs [from MarkS]
16:01:17 5. MSE Response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Dec/0051.html [from MarkS]
16:01:18 6. Alt Guidance & Next Steps [from MarkS]
16:01:18 7. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media; [from MarkS]
16:01:19 8. Bug Triage: Review of Resolved Bugs tracked by TF [from MarkS]
16:01:19 9. HTML 5.1 Objectives http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist [from MarkS]
16:01:19 10. Other Business [from MarkS]
16:01:19 11. Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from MarkS]
16:01:20 12. be done [from MarkS]
16:01:52 LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
16:02:05 paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:02:06 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
16:02:06 Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:02:29 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:30 apparently WAI_HTML AT()6:00PM has ended, MarkS
16:02:30 On IRC I see paulc, LJWatson, aardrian, RRSAgent, davidb, SteveF, IanPouncey, janina, MarkS, jaymunro, hober, cabanier_, Zakim, trackbot
16:02:35 zakim, what is the code?
16:02:35 the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
16:03:06 zakim, who's here?
16:03:06 apparently WAI_HTML AT()6:00PM has ended, janina
16:03:07 On IRC I see paulc, LJWatson, aardrian, RRSAgent, davidb, SteveF, IanPouncey, janina, MarkS, jaymunro, hober, cabanier_, Zakim, trackbot
16:03:54 Judy has joined #html-a11y
16:03:54 zakim, this will be 2119
16:03:54 ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 63 minutes ago
16:04:06 agenda?
16:04:31 zakim, who's on the phone?
16:04:31 apparently WAI_HTML AT()6:00PM has ended, janina
16:04:32 On IRC I see Judy, paulc, LJWatson, aardrian, RRSAgent, davidb, SteveF, IanPouncey, janina, MarkS, jaymunro, hober, cabanier_, Zakim, trackbot
16:05:16 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Jan/0007.html agenda
16:05:31 JF has joined #html-a11y
16:05:33 JatinderMann has joined #html-a11y
16:06:33 PaulC is here
16:06:36 present+ Mark Sadecki
16:06:41 present+ paulc
16:06:48 present+ JatinderMann
16:06:57 present+ IanPouncey
16:07:01 present + JF
16:07:35 Roll: Adrian Roselli, Janina, Mark Sadecki, Judy Brewer, John Foliot, Jay Tinder, Paul Cotton, Leonie Watson, Ian Pouncey
16:08:00 Jay Tinder = Jatinder :)
16:08:13 Roll: Jatinder
16:08:21 zakim, next item
16:08:21 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from MarkS]
16:08:45 scribe: adrian
16:08:59 scribe: aardrian
16:09:08 zakim, close this item
16:09:08 agendum 1 closed
16:09:09 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:09:09 2. Longdesc Update [from MarkS]
16:09:12 zakim, next item
16:09:12 agendum 2. "Longdesc Update" taken up [from MarkS]
16:09:43 JS: Expecting Chaals to post results of last survey soon, expired on Dec-31-2013.
16:10:01 JS: Group mostly in favor of publishing stand-alone specification.
16:10:48 +Q
16:10:51 JS: Need to put together report to show testing results, etc.
16:11:04 JS: Still targeting to have it done for CSUN.
16:11:19 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
16:11:21 q+
16:11:32 MS: Updates from Last Call comment period are added to draft. Working on putting together exit criteria.
16:11:48 q?
16:11:50 MS: Hoping to put together calendar for dates for moving longdesc forward.
16:11:51 ack JF
16:11:55 ack jf
16:12:16 JF: Offering help with any of test reporting, etc.
16:12:34 1. When will the LC bugs actually be closed: http://tinyurl.com/kaqkj4h ?
16:12:38 Roll: Rich Schwerdtfeger
16:12:40 ack p
16:12:58 PC: There appears to be ~5 LC bugs still open, when can they be cloed?
16:13:09 2. What role will the HTML WG have in moving forward?
16:13:10 MS: Probably can be closed now, will verify.
16:13:35 PC: What role does HTMLWG have in working spec forward?
16:13:55 JS: The answer may be that HTMLWG is group that publishes it, since TF cannot publish.
16:14:04 PC: Any schedule should take that into consideration.
16:14:43 zakim, next item
16:14:43 agendum 3. "Canvas 2D Followup" taken up [from MarkS]
16:15:06 -> http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-html-a11y-minutes.html Minutes from last canvas sub group meeting
16:15:26 MS: Had second meeting on Monday, verified completion of actions, came to better understanding of features.
16:16:15 MS: [Reference to notes coming from Mark, minutes already linked]
16:16:57 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_of_2014-01-06_Meeting Summary of
16:17:05 q+
16:17:12 Roll: Steve Faulkner
16:17:37 Roll: Cynthia Shelly
16:18:19 Do we have tests that can be added to the Canvas CR test suite? Note that at the F2F we discussed Canvas testing and concluded we largely had enough results to exit CR EXCEPT for the focusring work.
16:18:22 ack p
16:19:05 PC: Are there tests for the Canvas CR test suite?
16:19:38 \me Who responded to Paul?
16:20:01 RS: We have not looked at them, we should.
16:20:15 s/\me Who responded to Paul?/
16:20:32 JS: On procedural question, should we ask for help from Testing TF on writing tests?
16:20:44 q+
16:21:16 MS: I can take a shot, but not efficient. Will check with Canvas sub-group to see if anyone can help.
16:21:28 RS: If we do this, no need to go back through CR?
16:22:00 PC: Reason we'd go back to LC is to remove/add features from/to CR.
16:22:23 PC: Working group in Shenzhen felt we had enough proof of interoperability to exit now.
16:22:27 zakim, who's making noise?
16:22:27 sorry, Judy, I don't know what conference this is
16:23:08 PC: Two choices: Go back to LC as soon as sub-group has flattened bugs; delay going back to LC if we have evidence to avoid CR.
16:23:26 RS: Don't know how we avoid CR -- building implementations in parallel.
16:23:45 PC: Without tests/implementations, then right path might be to go back to LC with notes...
16:24:04 PC: on establishing proof of interoperability and then can come out of LC.
16:24:31 PC: Would ask sub-group for its thoughts on timeframe.
16:24:51 PC: Maybe comes out of LC early Feb, could come out of CR end of March. Speculating.
16:25:29 PC: It might help if I attend next week's meeting to answer questions in person.
16:26:01 RS: With ARIA CR, were done with implementations, had to wait on IP period. May not be an issue here. That's why I asked.
16:26:20 PC: Might be referring to disclosure requirement, will need to check.
16:26:43 PC: Since spec has been in LC once, does this apply? Will check.
16:27:05 q?
16:27:13 ack j
16:27:31 J: Could ask implementers if they want to help, work out test cases.
16:27:39 http://greweb.me/glsl-transition/example/
16:27:54 J: Have found 2 sites of real-world examples of controls in Canvas.
16:27:56 https://personal.teamlab.com/
16:28:13 J: One uses focus ring, another is a text editor.
16:28:17 q?
16:28:32 zakim, next item
16:28:32 agendum 4. "ARIA Related Bugs" taken up [from MarkS]
16:29:23 JS: Bug squashing happened last week. Three bugs remaining.
16:29:38 * Typo on the above comment, One example uses Canvas as a control for the bezier easing function, the other is an example of real world control.
16:29:48 JS: Hoping to do something on remaining 3 in call on Monday.
16:29:50 There are only 11 HTML5 CR bugs remaining: http://tinyurl.com/mzf5l5u
16:30:09 \me Jatinder, I don't know to edit, will leave that to JS.
16:30:44 s/One uses focus ring, another is a text editor./One example uses Canvas as a control for the bezier easing function, the other is an example of real world control.
16:31:16 SF: One member does not agree with one of the bugs. Would be good to have his buy-in.
16:31:25 zakim, this is WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)
16:31:25 ok, Judy; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
16:31:38 zakim, who's on the phone?
16:31:38 On the phone I see Mark_Sadecki, [IPcaller], ??P4, Adrian_Roselli, John_Foliot, [Microsoft], Judy, [Microsoft.a], [IPcaller.a], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [IPcaller.aa], Cynthia_Shelly
16:31:41 MS: Don't need unaninimity.
16:31:46 s/real world control./real world text editor in Canvas.
16:32:03 * Sorry, I keep fixing my comment :)
16:32:21 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277 is marked RESOLVES WONTFIX. If someone disagrees they should re-open the bug.
16:32:24 PC: All other browser makes support decision, don't agree with Alexander.
16:33:14 q?
16:33:18 q+
16:33:43 SF: Wants him to understand risks, particularly around hidden/unhidden elements in tree.
16:33:45 q+
16:34:05 MS: Do we need to hold up standardization process for one person who doesn't get it?
16:34:35 MS: Wants Firefox (Alexander) to get it, but it's difficult enough to get everyone in the room to discuss.
16:34:37 ack j
16:34:49 @hidden https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23371
16:35:23 SF: Argument from Alex: "We don't override disable, why should we override hidden?"
16:35:24 q+
16:35:58 PC: Wrong link to bug in minutes, different from link provided by SF.
16:36:15 PC: Argument about the bug is erroneous because it's the wrong bug.
16:36:29 q-
16:36:53 There are only 11 HTML5 CR bugs remaining: http://tinyurl.com/mzf5l5u
16:37:04 PC: Earlier in call, dropped in link to remaining bugs. Providing again.
16:37:31 PC: Vast majority of them will be accessibility related.
16:38:04 PC: When chairs met on Monday was look at HTML5 CR bugs, need to give selves deadline just as done for Canvas bugs.
16:38:42 PC: Expecting at least 3-4 of non-a11y bugs to be related later this week, earlier next week, leaving a11y outstanding.
16:39:28 JS: May need to take a call for consensus on 23371.
16:39:36 q+
16:39:57 PC: 19277, there has been a lot of discussion since marked as resolved.
16:40:27 PC: If anyone disagrees, then they should re-open 19277.
16:41:16 RS: Looking at list, which should be taken up in ARIA call on Monday?
16:41:25 PC: Why not at least 3 in the agenda for this meeting?
16:41:34 RS: Because there are lots of bugs in here.
16:42:09 PC: Went through CR bugs one at a time in Shenzhen. Other bugs nominally have someone on point.
16:42:34 PC: Suggestion is to concentrate on the three noted, then we can look at what's left.
16:42:56 RS: Sees Janinna is not on point for any of them.
16:43:16 PC: The three in the agenda are correct. Some details were hammered out in Shenzhen.
16:43:33 RS: Will put those three on Monday's call, will join Monday's call.
16:43:41 JS: Let's see if we can get Alexander on call as well.
16:44:18 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23371#c5
16:44:30 SF: Would be useful for Rich to look at Alex's last comment on 23371 and respond.
16:46:04 SF: Just closed a bug that wasn't necessary to block CR. Not one of the three on Janina's list.
16:46:36 closed this bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20730
16:47:02 SF: Bug #20730
16:47:24 zakim, close this item
16:47:24 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
16:47:28 zakim, take up item 6
16:47:28 agendum 6. "Alt Guidance & Next Steps" taken up [from MarkS]
16:47:41 Q?
16:47:59 JS: Are we done with image map discussion?
16:48:03 SF: Yes.
16:48:17 ack steveF
16:48:25 ack paulc
16:48:29 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Dec/0023.html Discussion thread start
16:48:41 SF: Boils down to some saying no alt text needed for image in the map.
16:48:41 -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#image-maps-0 spec reference
16:49:11 SF: Updated example in spec in response to review, mainly Jukka and Leif.
16:49:14 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#image-maps-0
16:49:21 q?
16:49:24 Per previous discussion, Steve's "closed a bug" is documented in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2014Jan/0091.html and is bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20730
16:49:52 SF: From list: Shouldn't be identifying image as image with an alt since image map role is to provide navigation.
16:49:53 -[Microsoft.a]
16:50:03 SF: Would like to get other opinions.
16:50:16 q?
16:50:20 CS: Some image maps are navigational, some presentation.
16:50:24 Q+
16:50:48 SF: In the example, two links on a geographical map.
16:51:05 Q+
16:51:29 ack lw
16:51:35 ack jw
16:51:44 ack ljw
16:51:44 LW: Agree with Cynthia. Sometimes image is important, sometimes not. Hard to qualify that subtlety.
16:51:53 ack jf
16:51:54 LW: Would rather know that image is there so, as user, she can decide.
16:52:25 JF: Thinks image always requires some kind of alt.
16:52:42 JF: Feels example is correct because map is more than two areas in links.
16:52:49 SF: Can you please respond on list?
16:52:58 q?
16:53:02 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Dec/0023.html Discussion thread start
16:53:50 JS: Also the question of have we sufficiently tweaked the alt guidance so we can sign off?
16:54:25 SF: Couple bugs around relatively minor issues outstanding.
16:54:51 SF: Feedback should be coming from WAI.
16:54:59 JS: Duly reminded I need to respond, and will do that.
16:55:10 JS: Do we need to have a consensus call?
16:55:55 SF: Nothing controversial in additions, just examples and text.
16:56:00 last 2 examples : http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#images-of-text
16:56:04 q?
16:56:11 Q+
16:56:18 ack l
16:56:22 SF: Need to get people to look it over, get consensus.
16:56:42 http://tinyurl.com/ckoq2cd
16:56:42 LW: Still a handful of bugs assigned to text alternative team, marked resolved, need to be reviewed by sub-teams.
16:57:41 JS: Goal for closing by CSUN. Will probably run a call for consensus using snapshot.
16:58:46 JS: Mark, let's make discussion point for our call. Review and make sure it's closed.
16:59:46 SF: Started to add to the head section of elements, info/pointers to appropriate ARIA references.
17:00:12