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12:39:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-irc ←
12:39:55 <Steven> zakim, help
Steven Pemberton: zakim, help ←
12:39:55 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
Zakim IRC Bot: Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help. ←
12:39:57 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
Zakim IRC Bot: Some of the commands I know are: ←
12:39:58 <Zakim> xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
Zakim IRC Bot: xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx ←
12:40:00 <Zakim> if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
Zakim IRC Bot: if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted ←
12:40:02 <Zakim> xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
Zakim IRC Bot: xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx ←
12:40:05 <Zakim> I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
Zakim IRC Bot: I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx ←
12:40:07 <Zakim> xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
Zakim IRC Bot: xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group ←
12:40:10 <Zakim> xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
Zakim IRC Bot: xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx ←
12:40:13 <Zakim> who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
Zakim IRC Bot: who's here? - lists the participants on the phone ←
12:40:16 <Zakim> who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
Zakim IRC Bot: who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted ←
12:40:19 <Zakim> mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
Zakim IRC Bot: mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#) ←
12:40:21 <Zakim> unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
Zakim IRC Bot: unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61# ←
12:40:23 <Zakim> is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
Zakim IRC Bot: is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present ←
12:40:26 <Zakim> list conferences - reports the active conferences
Zakim IRC Bot: list conferences - reports the active conferences ←
12:40:27 <Zakim> this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
Zakim IRC Bot: this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx ←
12:40:28 <Zakim> excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
Zakim IRC Bot: excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel ←
12:40:29 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2016/03/10 19:29:51 $
Zakim IRC Bot: I last learned something new on $Date: 2016/03/10 19:29:51 $ ←
12:42:32 <Steven> can do
Steven Pemberton: can do ←
12:42:55 <Steven> :-)
Steven Pemberton: :-) ←
12:43:45 <ShaneM> User Interface Rule #1: never anthropomorphize your software
Shane McCarron: User Interface Rule #1: never anthropomorphize your software ←
12:44:13 <Steven> hwo many do we think are attending?
Steven Pemberton: hwo many do we think are attending? ←
12:44:32 <oedipus> markus, shane, steven, gregory, roland
Gregory Rosmaita: markus, shane, steven, gregory, roland ←
12:44:43 <oedipus> those that are here - will be here
Gregory Rosmaita: those that are here - will be here ←
12:44:52 <oedipus> didn't catch any regrets
Gregory Rosmaita: didn't catch any regrets ←
12:45:00 <Steven> tina, mark
Steven Pemberton: tina, mark ←
12:45:22 <oedipus> ah, i had hoped mark could be here, especially on the topic of forms in XHTML2
Gregory Rosmaita: ah, i had hoped mark could be here, especially on the topic of forms in XHTML2 ←
12:45:41 <Steven> alessio
Steven Pemberton: alessio ←
12:45:43 <oedipus> markus is grabbing a bite to eat and a cup of coffee
Gregory Rosmaita: markus is grabbing a bite to eat and a cup of coffee ←
12:45:54 <Steven> So that's 8 possibles
Steven Pemberton: So that's 8 possibles ←
12:46:10 <oedipus> how many is the zakim reservation for?
Gregory Rosmaita: how many is the zakim reservation for? ←
12:46:23 <Steven> Gregory, watch this
Steven Pemberton: Gregory, watch this ←
12:46:59 <Steven> zakim, room for 8 people at 13:00Z for 240 minutes?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, room for 8 people at 13:00Z for 240 minutes? ←
12:47:00 <oedipus> User Interface Rule #2: if you do antrhomorphize your software, don't be surprised when it de-humanizes you
Gregory Rosmaita: User Interface Rule #2: if you do antrhomorphize your software, don't be surprised when it de-humanizes you ←
12:47:02 <Zakim> sorry, Steven; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Steven; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again ←
12:47:18 <Steven> woh
Steven Pemberton: woh ←
12:47:26 <Steven> 04 01zakim, room for 8 people at 13:00Z for 240 minutes?
Steven Pemberton: 04 01zakim, room for 8 people at 13:00Z for 240 minutes? ←
12:47:40 <oedipus> zakim was REALLY flakey yesterday
Gregory Rosmaita: zakim was REALLY flakey yesterday ←
12:47:46 <oedipus> even for Zakim
Gregory Rosmaita: even for Zakim ←
12:47:47 <Steven> zakim, room for 8 people at 13:00Z for 240 minutes?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, room for 8 people at 13:00Z for 240 minutes? ←
12:47:50 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)13:00Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) at 13:00Z for 240 minutes until 1700Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)13:00Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) at 13:00Z for 240 minutes until 1700Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked ←
12:48:18 <Steven> Note code is CONF2
Steven Pemberton: Note code is CONF2 ←
12:48:34 <oedipus> i can't tell the difference between the last rejected command, and the one zakim acknowledged ;-)
Gregory Rosmaita: i can't tell the difference between the last rejected command, and the one zakim acknowledged ;-) ←
12:49:27 <Steven> nor can I, nor can I
Steven Pemberton: nor can I, nor can I ←
12:49:34 <oedipus> ROTFL
Gregory Rosmaita: ROTFL ←
12:49:41 <oedipus> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda
12:52:49 <Steven> zakim, how many ports are reserved at 13:00?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, how many ports are reserved at 13:00? ←
12:52:49 <Zakim> on Tue Mar 10 13:00:00 2009 I see 58 reserved [34 available], 58 ports 30 minutes later [34 available], and 21 ports 60 minutes later [71 available]
Zakim IRC Bot: on Tue Mar 10 13:00:00 2009 I see 58 reserved [34 available], 58 ports 30 minutes later [34 available], and 21 ports 60 minutes later [71 available] ←
12:53:28 <Steven> zakim, how many ports are reserved at 15:00?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, how many ports are reserved at 15:00? ←
12:53:28 <Zakim> on Tue Mar 10 15:00:00 2009 I see 36 reserved [56 available], 31 ports 30 minutes later [61 available], and 6 ports 60 minutes later [86 available]
Zakim IRC Bot: on Tue Mar 10 15:00:00 2009 I see 36 reserved [56 available], 31 ports 30 minutes later [61 available], and 6 ports 60 minutes later [86 available] ←
12:53:45 <Steven> zakim, how many ports are reserved at 17:00?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, how many ports are reserved at 17:00? ←
12:53:45 <Zakim> on Tue Mar 10 17:00:00 2009 I see 0 reserved [92 available], 0 ports 30 minutes later [92 available], and 0 ports 60 minutes later [92 available]
Zakim IRC Bot: on Tue Mar 10 17:00:00 2009 I see 0 reserved [92 available], 0 ports 30 minutes later [92 available], and 0 ports 60 minutes later [92 available] ←
12:53:59 <Steven> Doesn't look overbooked to me....
Steven Pemberton: Doesn't look overbooked to me.... ←
12:54:05 <ShaneM> low tech crap
Shane McCarron: low tech crap ←
12:54:08 <Steven> LOL
Steven Pemberton: LOL ←
12:54:22 <Steven> I *really* must get that button made for you Shane
Steven Pemberton: I *really* must get that button made for you Shane ←
12:55:39 <oedipus> zakim may be showing the first glimmerings of AI - my older brother is an AI researcher whom i've always told "you'll know when you have a thinking machine when you command it to do something and it replies with a string of 4 letter words telling to programmer to "do it himself"
Gregory Rosmaita: zakim may be showing the first glimmerings of AI - my older brother is an AI researcher whom i've always told "you'll know when you have a thinking machine when you command it to do something and it replies with a string of 4 letter words telling to programmer to "do it himself" ←
12:58:47 <Steven> another 2 mins
Steven Pemberton: another 2 mins ←
12:58:57 <ShaneM> again - low tech crap
Shane McCarron: again - low tech crap ←
12:59:03 <Steven> booked at the hour
Steven Pemberton: booked at the hour ←
12:59:40 <Steven> shane jetlagged???
Steven Pemberton: shane jetlagged??? ←
12:59:50 <Steven> This can't be the real Shane
Steven Pemberton: This can't be the real Shane ←
12:59:53 <Steven> An imposter!
Steven Pemberton: An imposter! ←
13:00:04 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
13:00:05 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
13:00:06 <Zakim> Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has now started ←
13:00:06 <ShaneM> this is what happens when i dont travel for ages.
Shane McCarron: this is what happens when i dont travel for ages. ←
13:00:08 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
13:00:59 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←
13:01:10 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
13:01:13 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF
13:01:22 <Steven> Chair: Roland
13:01:32 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:01:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←
13:02:03 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←
13:03:39 <Steven> code CONF2 Roalnd
Steven Pemberton: code CONF2 Roalnd ←
13:03:44 <Steven> Roland
Steven Pemberton: Roland ←
13:04:32 <Zakim> +Roland_Merrick
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland_Merrick ←
13:04:46 <Zakim> + +04670602aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +04670602aaaa ←
13:04:57 <Roland> Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland
Roland Merrick: Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland ←
13:04:57 <Zakim> +Roland; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland; got it ←
13:05:12 <Markus> Zakim, +04670602aaaa is Markus
Markus Gylling: Zakim, +04670602aaaa is Markus ←
13:05:12 <Zakim> +Markus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Markus; got it ←
13:05:20 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0072.html
Gregory Rosmaita: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0072.html ←
13:05:30 <oedipus> http://xml.gov
Gregory Rosmaita: http://xml.gov ←
13:05:54 <oedipus> http://xml.house.gov
Gregory Rosmaita: http://xml.house.gov ←
13:06:58 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
Gregory Rosmaita: zakim, who is here? ←
13:06:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, ??P12, Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Steven, ??P12, Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Markus ←
13:06:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see Roland, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, oedipus, Markus, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Roland, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, oedipus, Markus, trackbot ←
13:07:17 <oedipus> http://xml.gov/cop.asp
Gregory Rosmaita: http://xml.gov/cop.asp ←
13:07:25 <oedipus> http://xml.gov/standards.asp
Gregory Rosmaita: http://xml.gov/standards.asp ←
13:07:45 <oedipus> http://xml.gov/efforts.asp
Gregory Rosmaita: http://xml.gov/efforts.asp ←
13:08:19 <Steven> http://xml.house.gov.
Steven Pemberton: http://xml.house.gov. ←
13:10:00 <oedipus> http://www.section508.gov
Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.section508.gov ←
13:10:31 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)
13:10:37 <Steven> Topic: Start
13:10:53 <Steven> Steven: Great news about Vivek as CIO
Steven Pemberton: Great news about Vivek as CIO ←
13:11:01 <oedipus> GJR: amen
Gregory Rosmaita: amen [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←
13:11:07 <Steven> [discussion of Gov websites, XML, and use of]
[discussion of Gov websites, XML, and use of] ←
13:11:48 <oedipus> second: Modules, Modularization, and the XHTML Family
Scribe problem: the name 'second' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown second: Modules, Modularization, and the XHTML Family [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Rosmaita ] ←
13:12:23 <Steven> Topic: which version of XForms, 1.1? What about XML Events mismatch?
13:12:23 <Steven> XHTML2+XForms attribute clashes
XHTML2+XForms attribute clashes ←
13:12:25 <oedipus> zakim, allow speakers 30|00
Gregory Rosmaita: zakim, allow speakers 30|00 ←
13:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'allow speakers 30|00', oedipus
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'allow speakers 30|00', oedipus ←
13:12:32 <oedipus> zakim, allow queue 30|00
Gregory Rosmaita: zakim, allow queue 30|00 ←
13:12:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'allow queue 30|00', oedipus
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'allow queue 30|00', oedipus ←
13:12:50 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
Gregory Rosmaita: http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html ←
13:13:12 <Steven> zakim, allow 30 minutes
zakim, allow 30 minutes ←
13:13:12 <Zakim> ok, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven ←
created using i/SP: have to say/ScribeNick: oedipus
(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)
13:14:01 <oedipus> SP: have to say 1.1 because fixes so many things in XForms 1.0
Steven Pemberton: have to say 1.1 because fixes so many things in XForms 1.0 ←
13:14:07 <oedipus> SP: 1.1 in CR at moment
Steven Pemberton: 1.1 in CR at moment ←
13:14:57 <oedipus> SP: we need to get the test suite through to implementations; EMC turned up with a test report on use of XForms; Chiva and Orbion are fighting to be number 2; ubiquity is coming on strong
Steven Pemberton: we need to get the test suite through to implementations; EMC turned up with a test report on use of XForms; Chiva and Orbeon are fighting to be number 2; ubiquity is coming on strong ←
13:15:11 <oedipus> SP: looking good for 2 test suites for XForms 1.1 completion
Steven Pemberton: looking good for 2 test suites for XForms 1.1 completion ←
13:15:15 <Steven> Roland: s/Chiva/Chiba/
Roland Merrick: s/Chiva/Chiba/ [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←
13:15:26 <Steven> s/Orbion/Orbeon/
13:15:30 <oedipus> SP: confident 1.1 will be out of last call by time XHTML2 goes to LC
Steven Pemberton: confident 1.1 will be out of last call by time XHTML2 goes to LC ←
13:15:37 <oedipus> RM: what about XML Events 2?
Roland Merrick: what about XML Events 2? ←
13:16:01 <oedipus> SP: xml events 2 taken things over from XForms 1.1 - borrowed good ideas - should be in events really
Steven Pemberton: xml events 2 taken things over from XForms 1.1 - borrowed good ideas - should be in events really ←
13:16:19 <oedipus> SP: not sure too much of a clash between 1.1 and 1.2
Steven Pemberton: not sure too much of a clash between 1.1 and 1.2 ←
13:16:30 <oedipus> SP: xml events overlap is small
Steven Pemberton: xml events overlap is small ←
13:16:36 <oedipus> RM: something we should understand
Roland Merrick: something we should understand ←
13:17:07 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - investigate overlap between XML Events 2 and XForms 1.1
ACTION: Steven - investigate overlap between XML Events 2 and XForms 1.1 ←
13:17:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-53 - - investigate overlap between XML Events 2 and XForms 1.1 [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-03-17].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-53 - - investigate overlap between XML Events 2 and XForms 1.1 [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-03-17]. ←
13:17:47 <oedipus> SM: Events 2 now modularized; handler module can flip directly with the builtin handlers in XForms 1.1
Shane McCarron: Events 2 now modularized; handler module can flip directly with the builtin handlers in XForms 1.1 ←
13:17:57 <oedipus> SP: doesn't handler module add action
Steven Pemberton: doesn't handler module add action ←
13:18:16 <oedipus> SM: improved it (in air quotes) - don't think consistent or backwards compatible
Shane McCarron: improved it (in air quotes) - don't think consistent or backwards compatible ←
13:18:22 <oedipus> SP: improvements
Steven Pemberton: improvements ←
13:18:35 <oedipus> SM: MarkB's wish list; actions can use script
Shane McCarron: MarkB's wish list; actions can use script ←
13:18:46 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xml-events2
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xml-events2 ←
13:19:03 <oedipus> SM: third module - SCRIPT (XML Scripting Module)
Shane McCarron: third module - SCRIPT (XML Scripting Module) ←
13:19:15 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20081223
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20081223 ←
13:19:21 <oedipus> SP: will investigate
Steven Pemberton: will investigate ←
13:19:36 <oedipus> SP: changes in Events 2 - conditional actions taken straight from XForms 1.1
Steven Pemberton: changes in Events 2 - conditional actions taken straight from XForms 1.1 ←
13:19:50 <oedipus> SP: some changes in XML Events 2 that are part of XForms 1.0
Steven Pemberton: some changes in XML Events 2 that are part of XForms 1.0 ←
13:20:00 <oedipus> SM: targetid in 1.1
Shane McCarron: targetid in 1.1 ←
13:20:18 <Steven> ack shane
Steven Pemberton: ack shane ←
13:20:20 <oedipus> GJR: only reason for 1.2 was attempt to harmonize forms between XHTML2 and HTML5
Gregory Rosmaita: only reason for 1.2 was attempt to harmonize forms between XHTML2 and HTML5 ←
13:20:38 <oedipus> SM: conflicts between XForms 1.1
Shane McCarron: conflicts between XForms 1.1 ←
13:20:41 <oedipus> MG: submission
Markus Gylling: submission ←
13:20:50 <oedipus> SM: submission element
Shane McCarron: submission element ←
13:20:56 <oedipus> SP: received email on that
Steven Pemberton: received email on that ←
13:21:06 <oedipus> MC: paste list into chat (or URI)
Shane McCarron: paste list into chat (or URI) ←
13:21:11 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:21:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:21:19 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0050.html
Roland Merrick: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0050.html ←
13:21:28 <oedipus> i/SP: have to say/ScribeNick: oedipus
13:21:33 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:21:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:21:43 <oedipus> SP: coding less of problem; target is a pain
Steven Pemberton: encoding less of problem; target is a pain ←
13:22:00 <oedipus> SM: not convinced target is a pain - take them one at a time
Shane McCarron: not convinced target is a pain - take them one at a time ←
13:22:11 <Steven> s/coding/encoding/
13:22:18 <oedipus> GJR: target ok if strictly defined - otherwise people will use javascript hacks
Gregory Rosmaita: target ok if strictly defined - otherwise people will use javascript hacks ←
13:23:24 <oedipus> MG: fear that have universal problem -- XForms is the first external grammar trying to incorporate; Common Attribute Collection growing exponentially; i would like to think about our Common Attribute Collection
Markus Gylling: fear that have universal problem -- XForms is the first external grammar trying to incorporate; Common Attribute Collection growing exponentially; i would like to think about our Common Attribute Collection ←
13:23:44 <oedipus> MG: MathML and SVG invoked externally - today garuntee collisions; investigate generic solution
Markus Gylling: MathML and SVG invoked externally - today garuntee collisions; investigate generic solution ←
13:23:58 <oedipus> SM: in those cases, those grammars not in XHTML2 namespace, so doesn't matter
Shane McCarron: in those cases, those grammars not in XHTML2 namespace, so doesn't matter ←
13:24:15 <oedipus> SM: if role in global attributes, do it using namespace modifiers/prefixes
Shane McCarron: if role in global attributes, do it using namespace modifiers/prefixes ←
13:24:41 <oedipus> SP: agreed at some point to make special exceptions with XForms; XHTML2 began with understanding that XForms an integral part of XHTML2
Steven Pemberton: agreed at some point to make special exceptions with XForms; XHTML2 began with understanding that XForms an integral part of XHTML2 ←
13:24:51 <oedipus> SP: offered to import into XHTML2 namespace
Steven Pemberton: offered to import into XHTML2 namespace ←
13:25:07 <oedipus> SP: rules for porting XHTML2 onto other elements is that MUST be prefixed
Steven Pemberton: rules for porting XHTML2 onto other elements is that MUST be prefixed ←
13:25:21 <oedipus> MG: that should be a SHOULD, not a MUSTG
Markus Gylling: that should be a SHOULD, not a MUST ←
13:25:26 <oedipus> s/MUSTG/MUST
13:25:53 <oedipus> SP: if import XHTML2 href should namespace qualify with xh2:
Steven Pemberton: if import XHTML2 href should namespace qualify with xh2: ←
13:26:22 <oedipus> MG: RelaxNG point of view - if define attributes, doesn't inherit namespace of parent element -- only belongs to namespace if prefixed
Markus Gylling: RelaxNG point of view - if define attributes, doesn't inherit namespace of parent element -- only belongs to namespace if prefixed ←
13:27:11 <oedipus> SP: attributes are not in a namespace unless namespace qualified; don't have to look into namespace to find attribute, but can also add namespace attributes to elements
Steven Pemberton: attributes are not in a namespace unless namespace qualified; don't have to look into namespace to find attribute, but can also add namespace attributes to elements ←
13:27:23 <oedipus> SM: not sure understand MG's question
Shane McCarron: not sure understand MG's question ←
13:27:56 <oedipus> MG: 2 things: first, if there is quirkiness in way make schemas so can be qualified and unqualified depending on context
Markus Gylling: 2 things: first, if there is quirkiness in way make schemas so can be qualified and unqualified depending on context ←
13:29:06 <oedipus> MG: second: how XForms editing will appear for users; if swallow all of XForms element set with our common attributes, may be recipie for confusion by authors; strikes me as strange to have @target on every XForms element in XML namespace
Markus Gylling: second: how XForms editing will appear for users; if swallow all of XForms element set with our common attributes, may be recipie for confusion by authors; strikes me as strange to have @target on every XForms element in XML namespace ←
13:29:29 <oedipus> RM: take Common and break into smaller chunks so people can take what is most appropriate for their attribute collection needs
Roland Merrick: take Common and break into smaller chunks so people can take what is most appropriate for their attribute collection needs ←
13:29:48 <oedipus> MG: looking forward at incorporation of future modules; common collection very large
Markus Gylling: looking forward at incorporation of future modules; common collection very large ←
13:30:02 <oedipus> SM: done what RM suggested - attribute collections and common
Shane McCarron: done what RM suggested - attribute collections and common ←
13:30:17 <oedipus> SP: common doesn't start big, but grows in accordance with elements used
Steven Pemberton: common doesn't start big, but grows in accordance with elements used ←
13:30:32 <oedipus> SP: thought every element had "common" on it
Steven Pemberton: thought every element had "common" on it ←
13:30:39 <oedipus> SM: not all have common and not all need it
Shane McCarron: not all have common and not all need it ←
13:31:03 <oedipus> MG: from XHTML2 PoV that is right, XHTML M12n different?
Markus Gylling: from XHTML2 PoV that is right, XHTML M12n different? ←
13:31:04 <oedipus> SM: no
Shane McCarron: no ←
13:31:22 <oedipus> RM: need to make this point crystal clear so as to avoid misunderstanding
Roland Merrick: need to make this point crystal clear so as to avoid misunderstanding ←
13:31:47 <oedipus> SM: open to defining which of XHTML2 attribute collections are added to the common collection
Shane McCarron: open to defining which of XHTML2 attribute collections are added to the common collection ←
13:32:14 <oedipus> MG: [reads from spec] -- no requirement on common; you are correct shane
Markus Gylling: [reads from spec] -- no requirement on common; you are correct shane ←
13:32:22 <oedipus> SM: same thing M12n 1.0 says
Shane McCarron: same thing M12n 1.0 says ←
13:32:58 <oedipus> MG: either change XHTML2 to export reduced number of attribute collections; or try to disambiguate all collections one-by-one
Markus Gylling: either change XHTML2 to export reduced number of attribute collections; or try to disambiguate all collections one-by-one ←
13:33:09 <oedipus> MG: user point of view, would counsel first suggestion
Markus Gylling: user point of view, would counsel first suggestion ←
13:33:19 <oedipus> SM: what does "introduce a reduced set" mean?
Steven Pemberton: what does "introduce a reduced set" mean? ←
13:33:28 <oedipus> s/SM: what/SP: what
13:33:50 <oedipus> SP: RDFa - by importing RDFa adds to common because every element can have @property or @about
Steven Pemberton: RDFa - by importing RDFa adds to common because every element can have @property or @about ←
13:34:10 <oedipus> SP: not using common as a catch-all -- predicated on what other tech one is integrating
Steven Pemberton: not using common as a catch-all -- predicated on what other tech one is integrating ←
13:34:25 <oedipus> SP: many modules add attributes that have general effect
Steven Pemberton: many modules add attributes that have general effect ←
13:34:54 <oedipus> SP: regretable that if introduce @href, it bring @target with it -- problem @target used in XML Events and XForms
Steven Pemberton: regretable that if introduce @href, it bring @target with it -- problem @target used in XML Events and XForms ←
13:35:12 <oedipus> SP: solution not to reduce attribute sets -- doesn't solve problem - just makes certain things impossible
Steven Pemberton: solution not to reduce attribute sets -- doesn't solve problem - just makes certain things impossible ←
13:35:15 <ShaneM> q+
Shane McCarron: q+ ←
13:35:26 <oedipus> RM: need alternatives, then
Roland Merrick: need alternatives, then ←
13:35:27 <oedipus> q?
q? ←
13:35:33 <oedipus> ack sh
ack sh ←
13:36:21 <oedipus> SM: 2 points: 1) @target comes along with @href (could split them); 2) disagree with premise that by including whatever modules one is using, one is including every other module in attributes
Shane McCarron: 2 points: 1) @target comes along with @href (could split them); 2) disagree with premise that by including whatever modules one is using, one is including every other module in attributes ←
13:36:38 <oedipus> SP: bit of risk: 1 place have @target and another @target that does something different
Steven Pemberton: bit of risk: 1 place have @target and another @target that does something different ←
13:36:43 <oedipus> SM: not disagreeing with that
Shane McCarron: not disagreeing with that ←
13:37:08 <oedipus> SP: one @target for XML Events and @target on submission from XForms
Steven Pemberton: one @target for XML Events and @target on submission from XForms ←
13:37:19 <oedipus> SM: removed @target from XML Events 2
Shane McCarron: removed @target from XML Events 2 ←
13:37:45 <oedipus> SM: @target a very minor issue; would have same name, but in VERY different contexts; don't see as source of confusion
Shane McCarron: @target a very minor issue; would have same name, but in VERY different contexts; don't see as source of confusion ←
13:37:50 <oedipus> GJR: let commentors decide
Gregory Rosmaita: let commentors decide ←
13:38:17 <oedipus> SM: @resource is bigger problem; RDFa attributes need to be available for XForms elements; how do we deal with that? no proposal
Shane McCarron: @resource is bigger problem; RDFa attributes need to be available for XForms elements; how do we deal with that? no proposal ←
13:38:58 <oedipus> SP: @resource in XForms i opposed; just a renaming of the @src attribute, which is still there; created child of sumbission, resource, and wanted both to have same name;
Steven Pemberton: @resource in XForms i opposed; just a renaming of the @src attribute, which is still there; created child of sumbission, resource, and wanted both to have same name; ←
13:39:05 <oedipus> SM: proposal?
Shane McCarron: proposal? ←
13:39:27 <oedipus> SP: is possible to drop @resource in XForms and still retain functionality;
Steven Pemberton: is possible to drop @resource in XForms and still retain functionality; ←
13:39:33 <oedipus> SM: can XForms handle that?
Shane McCarron: can XForms handle that? ←
13:40:10 <oedipus> SP: no content in world except for test suites that uses @resource -- everyone uses @src -- @resource added because "looked better" -- wanted to retain @src
Steven Pemberton: no content in world except for test suites that uses @resource -- everyone uses @src -- @resource added because "looked better" -- wanted to retain @src ←
13:40:32 <Markus> q+
Markus Gylling: q+ ←
13:40:35 <oedipus> SP: can ask XForms to drop @resource and reinstate @src
Steven Pemberton: can ask XForms to drop @resource and reinstate @src ←
13:40:54 <ShaneM> ack Markus
Shane McCarron: ack Markus ←
13:41:22 <oedipus> MG: other way is go route of namespace-qualified attributes; would be good if have solution that will work universally; using namespace qualified in XHTML would garuntee that would work forever
Markus Gylling: other way is go route of namespace-qualified attributes; would be good if have solution that will work universally; using namespace qualified in XHTML would garuntee that would work forever ←
13:41:56 <oedipus> SM: that's what we tell language designers to do -- use MathML or SVG with our attributes, and when do so MUST do so with namespace qualifiers
Shane McCarron: that's what we tell language designers to do -- use MathML or SVG with our attributes, and when do so MUST do so with namespace qualifiers ←
13:42:04 <oedipus> SM: the SHOULD should be a MUST
Shane McCarron: the SHOULD should be a MUST ←
13:42:22 <oedipus> MG: from use perspective won't be great for authors, but satisfies engineering reqs
Markus Gylling: from use perspective won't be great for authors, but satisfies engineering reqs ←
13:42:41 <oedipus> RM: for those creating dialects, avoid clashes so not to have to create new namespace
Roland Merrick: for those creating dialects, avoid clashes so not to have to create new namespace ←
13:42:56 <oedipus> RM: namespaces not popular; WGs going out of the way to avoid them
Roland Merrick: namespaces not popular; WGs going out of the way to avoid them ←
13:43:06 <oedipus> SM: appreciate MG's proposal
Shane McCarron: appreciate MG's proposal ←
13:43:33 <oedipus> SM: not sure we can achieve this politically; don't like rolling stuff into namespace
Shane McCarron: not sure we can achieve this politically; don't like rolling stuff into namespace ←
13:43:44 <oedipus> SM: XForms will be part of XHTML5 namespace
Shane McCarron: XForms will be part of XHTML5 namespace ←
13:44:15 <oedipus> SM: wrap up - @target discussed - my position is don't include @target in common or @href in Submission
Shane McCarron: wrap up - @target discussed - my position is don't include @target in common or @href in Submission ←
13:44:29 <oedipus> SM: hypertext attribute collection is not relevant and should not include @target
Shane McCarron: hypertext attribute collection is not relevant and should not include @target ←
13:44:56 <oedipus> SM: as SP pointed out, coding not an issue; in XForms call "string" in our document make data-type more explicit
Shane McCarron: as SP pointed out, coding not an issue; in XForms call "string" in our document make data-type more explicit ←
13:45:28 <oedipus> MG: i agree, but a schema processor wouldn't
Markus Gylling: i agree, but a schema processor wouldn't ←
13:46:00 <oedipus> MG: ask XForms group to specify data-type in the case of encoding more specifically
Markus Gylling: ask XForms group to specify data-type in the case of encoding more specifically ←
13:46:04 <oedipus> SM: like that idea
Shane McCarron: like that idea ←
13:46:06 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 ←
13:46:14 <oedipus> SP: sounds good - checking XForms 1.1
Steven Pemberton: sounds good - checking XForms 1.1 ←
13:46:31 <oedipus> MG: on SUBMISSION element
Markus Gylling: on SUBMISSION element ←
13:47:04 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/#structure-model-submission
http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/#structure-model-submission ←
13:47:20 <oedipus> "This element represents declarative instructions on what to submit, and how. Details of submit processing are described at 11 Submit."
"This element represents declarative instructions on what to submit, and how. Details of submit processing are described at 11 Submit." ←
13:47:37 <oedipus> "Common Attributes: Common"
"Common Attributes: Common" ←
13:47:45 <Steven> encoding
Steven Pemberton: encoding ←
13:47:45 <Steven> Optional attribute specifying an encoding for serialization. The default is "UTF-8".
Steven Pemberton: Optional attribute specifying an encoding for serialization. The default is "UTF-8". ←
13:48:25 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to write up concrete proposal for dealing with XHTML 2 vs. XForms 1.1 attributes on SUBMISSION element etc.
ACTION: Shane to write up concrete proposal for dealing with XHTML 2 vs. XForms 1.1 attributes on SUBMISSION element etc. ←
13:48:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Write up concrete proposal for dealing with XHTML 2 vs. XForms 1.1 attributes on SUBMISSION element etc. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-54 - Write up concrete proposal for dealing with XHTML 2 vs. XForms 1.1 attributes on SUBMISSION element etc. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17]. ←
13:48:52 <Steven> XHTML2 - encoding = Encodings
Steven Pemberton: XHTML2 - encoding = Encodings ←
13:48:52 <Steven> This attribute specifies the allowable encoding of the external resource referenced by the @src attribute. At its most general, it is a comma-separated list of encodings, such as "utf-8", "utf8, utf-16", or "utf-8, utf-16, *".
Steven Pemberton: This attribute specifies the allowable encoding of the external resource referenced by the @src attribute. At its most general, it is a comma-separated list of encodings, such as "utf-8", "utf8, utf-16", or "utf-8, utf-16, *". ←
13:49:29 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 30 to stop
Steven Pemberton: zakim, remind me in 30 to stop ←
13:49:29 <Zakim> ok, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven ←
13:49:45 <oedipus> Special Attributes for XForms 1.0 SUBMISSION bind, ref, action, method, version, indent. mediatype, encoding. omit-xml-declaration, standalone, cdata-section-elements, replace, instance, separator, includenamespaceprefixes
Special Attributes for XForms 1.0 SUBMISSION bind, ref, action, method, version, indent. mediatype, encoding. omit-xml-declaration, standalone, cdata-section-elements, replace, instance, separator, includenamespaceprefixes ←
13:50:09 <oedipus> TOPIC: section, h, and architectural purity
13:50:18 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Dec/0000.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Dec/0000.html ←
13:50:37 <oedipus> MG: i asked to have on agenda, but referring to different post
Markus Gylling: i asked to have on agenda, but referring to different post ←
13:50:46 <oedipus> SP: strongly support this
Steven Pemberton: strongly support this ←
13:51:14 <oedipus> SP: long had support for this PoV bar one member - can now get rid of h1 to h6
Steven Pemberton: long had support for this PoV bar one member - can now get rid of h1 to h6 ←
13:51:31 <oedipus> SP: like approach of putting them in legacy as long as make clear are legacy
Steven Pemberton: like approach of putting them in legacy as long as make clear are legacy ←
13:51:45 <oedipus> RM: single module/collection called "legacy"?
Roland Merrick: single module/collection called "legacy"? ←
13:51:49 <oedipus> RM: need a definition
Roland Merrick: need a definition ←
13:52:11 <oedipus> SM: don't have legacy module yet - anything legacy and groups should be in own modules
Shane McCarron: don't have legacy module yet - anything legacy and groups should be in own modules ←
13:52:13 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to create a new h1-h6 module marked as legacy.
ACTION: Shane to create a new h1-h6 module marked as legacy. ←
13:52:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-55 - Create a new h1-h6 module marked as legacy. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-55 - Create a new h1-h6 module marked as legacy. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17]. ←
13:52:33 <oedipus> MG: what goes in there in place of h1 to h6
Markus Gylling: what goes in there in place of h1 to h6 ←
13:53:00 <oedipus> SM: @target is good example
Shane McCarron: @target is good example ←
13:53:16 <oedipus> GJR: as long as author suggests, user accepts or rejects
Gregory Rosmaita: as long as author suggests, user accepts or rejects ←
13:53:31 <oedipus> TOPIC: @title, caption and label etc
13:53:35 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2009/01/21-xhtml-minutes.html#item03
http://www.w3.org/2009/01/21-xhtml-minutes.html#item03 ←
13:53:47 <oedipus> SM: don't remember this discussion
Shane McCarron: don't remember this discussion ←
13:54:37 <oedipus> MG: recap - have caption module now - available in TABLE, OBJECT and LISTS (label element for lists gone) - question is, in terms of CAPTIONs are we really done there -- should it be made part of common element collection so anything can be CAPTIONed
Markus Gylling: recap - have caption module now - available in TABLE, OBJECT and LISTS (label element for lists gone) - question is, in terms of CAPTIONs are we really done there -- should it be made part of common element collection so anything can be CAPTIONed ←
13:54:55 <oedipus> MG: second question: what happens with @title - perhaps candidate for legacy module
Markus Gylling: second question: what happens with @title - perhaps candidate for legacy module ←
13:55:42 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-core.html#adef_core_title
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-core.html#adef_core_title ←
13:55:51 <oedipus> SM: understand @title causes internationalization problem
Shane McCarron: understand @title causes internationalization problem ←
13:56:07 <oedipus> MG: can we make CAPTION full replacement for @title and kill @title
Markus Gylling: can we make CAPTION full replacement for @title and kill @title ←
13:56:24 <oedipus> SM: CAPTION part of text content module?
Shane McCarron: CAPTION part of text content module? ←
13:56:37 <oedipus> GJR: CAPTION used as header in TABLE in HTML
Gregory Rosmaita: CAPTION used as header in TABLE in HTML ←
13:56:52 <oedipus> MG: have on TABLE and LISTS, which is good
Markus Gylling: have on TABLE and LISTS, which is good ←
13:57:12 <oedipus> MG: if in text module, could have captions on ABBR etc.
Markus Gylling: if in text module, could have captions on ABBR etc. ←
13:57:27 <oedipus> SM: if replacing @title, needs to be allowed everywhere @title is currently allowed
Shane McCarron: if replacing @title, needs to be allowed everywhere @title is currently allowed ←
13:57:40 <oedipus> SM: or, this could tie back into discussion of the for attribute
Shane McCarron: or, this could tie back into discussion of the for attribute ←
13:57:56 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute ←
13:58:26 <oedipus> SP: will take up when discuss @for
Steven Pemberton: will take up when discuss @for ←
13:58:52 <oedipus> MG: if replace @title needs to be everywhere - assuming that title useful everywhere - is that true
Markus Gylling: if replace @title needs to be everywhere - assuming that title useful everywhere - is that true ←
13:59:05 <oedipus> GJR: needed for abbreviated form markup
Gregory Rosmaita: needed for abbreviated form markup ←
13:59:32 <oedipus> SM: allowing CAPTION everywhere to replace @title
Shane McCarron: allowing CAPTION everywhere to replace @title ←
14:00:06 <oedipus> RM: rule for CAPTION?
Roland Merrick: rule for CAPTION? ←
14:00:13 <oedipus> GJR: nested header in TABLE context
Gregory Rosmaita: nested header in TABLE context ←
14:00:22 <oedipus> SP: CSS selectors for CAPTION
Steven Pemberton: CSS selectors for CAPTION ←
14:01:11 <oedipus> SP: @title used for hover in HTML4x
Steven Pemberton: @title used for hover in HTML4x ←
14:01:29 <oedipus> q+ to ask what is content model for CAPTION for ABBR?
q+ to ask what is content model for CAPTION for ABBR? ←
14:01:38 <Steven> Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in a variety of ways. For instance, visual browsers frequently display the title as a "tool tip" (a short message that appears when the pointing device pauses over an object). Audio user agents may speak the title information in a similar context. For example, setting the attribute on a link allows user agents (visual and non-visual) to tell users about the nature of the linked resource:
Steven Pemberton: Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in a variety of ways. For instance, visual browsers frequently display the title as a "tool tip" (a short message that appears when the pointing device pauses over an object). Audio user agents may speak the title information in a similar context. For example, setting the attribute on a link allows user agents (visual and non-visual) to tell users about the nature of the linked resource: ←
14:02:07 <oedipus> GJR: in audio context state-of-art is either speak @title or speak link text
Gregory Rosmaita: in audio context state-of-art is either speak @title or speak link text ←
14:02:45 <oedipus> SP: XForms has HINT element for hover events; title widely used for abbr
Steven Pemberton: XForms has HINT element for hover events; title widely used for abbr ←
14:02:47 <oedipus> ack oe
ack oe ←
14:03:25 <oedipus> SM: CAPTION part of text module, can be child of ABBR
Shane McCarron: CAPTION part of text module, can be child of ABBR ←
14:03:29 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask what is content model for CAPTION for ABBR?
Zakim IRC Bot: oedipus, you wanted to ask what is content model for CAPTION for ABBR? ←
14:03:43 <oedipus> SP: i18n waanted CAPTION as well as @title so can markup @title values
Steven Pemberton: i18n wanted CAPTION as well as @title so can markup @title values ←
14:05:16 <Steven> s/aa/a/
14:05:19 <oedipus> GJR: intention of CAPTION in table is to provide terse descriptor
Gregory Rosmaita: intention of CAPTION in table is to provide terse descriptor ←
14:05:30 <oedipus> GJR: what is a caption and what is a description
Gregory Rosmaita: what is a caption and what is a description ←
14:05:36 <Steven> They wanted a TITLE element as child of all elements to allow marked up versions of @title
Steven Pemberton: They wanted a TITLE element as child of all elements to allow marked up versions of @title ←
14:06:34 <oedipus> ABBR title="foo"><TITLE><STYLE>rich text here</STYLE></TITLE>
ABBR title="foo"><TITLE><STYLE>rich text here</STYLE></TITLE> ←
14:07:01 <oedipus> ABBR TITLE STYLE to apply speech/audio CSS
ABBR TITLE STYLE to apply speech/audio CSS ←
14:08:40 <oedipus> RM: alt and labelledby from ARIA
Gregory Rosmaita: alt and labelledby from ARIA ←
14:08:49 <oedipus> s/RM: alt/GJR: alt
14:09:18 <oedipus> GJR: question for ARIA 2.0 is can labelledby and describedby take an IDREF
Gregory Rosmaita: question for ARIA 2.0 is can labelledby and describedby take an IDREF ←
14:10:45 <oedipus> RM: XForms: has LABEL (rendered user has to do nothing to understand), HINT (implied gesture by user), HELP (available on user demand)
Roland Merrick: XForms: has LABEL (rendered user has to do nothing to understand), HINT (implied gesture by user), HELP (available on user demand) ←
14:11:02 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/MediaSpecificElements
http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/MediaSpecificElements ←
14:11:33 <oedipus> suggested model for HTML5:
suggested model for HTML5: ←
14:11:33 <oedipus> <ELEMENT>
<ELEMENT> ←
14:11:33 <oedipus> <LEGEND></LEGEND> - required (maps to HTML4's @alt)
<LEGEND></LEGEND> - required (maps to HTML4's @alt) ←
14:11:33 <oedipus> <CAPTION></CAPTION> - required
<CAPTION></CAPTION> - required ←
14:11:33 <oedipus> <DESC></DESC> - required (maps to HTML4's @longdesc)
<DESC></DESC> - required (maps to HTML4's @longdesc) ←
14:11:33 <oedipus> <HELP></HELP>
<HELP></HELP> ←
14:11:35 <oedipus> </ELEMENT>
</ELEMENT> ←
14:11:58 <oedipus> RM: not clear on how to say CAPTION is alternative to @title -- behavior different
Roland Merrick: not clear on how to say CAPTION is alternative to @title -- behavior different ←
14:12:07 <oedipus> SM: correct
Shane McCarron: correct ←
14:12:21 <oedipus> RM: content model for LABEL and HINT the same - rendering instructions different
Roland Merrick: content model for LABEL and HINT the same - rendering instructions different ←
14:12:44 <oedipus> MG: need to look both at CAPTION and TITLE element, not either or
Markus Gylling: need to look both at CAPTION and TITLE element, not either or ←
14:12:46 <oedipus> GJR: yes
Gregory Rosmaita: yes ←
14:13:12 <oedipus> MG: for abbreviations, not @title or @caption, but expansion
Markus Gylling: for abbreviations, not @title or @caption, but expansion ←
14:13:33 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Initialisms
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Initialisms ←
14:13:45 <oedipus> MG: @title needs to get bug fixed
Markus Gylling: @title needs to get bug fixed ←
14:14:13 <oedipus> GJR: also exposition methods are many - show expansion on status line
Gregory Rosmaita: also exposition methods are many - show expansion on status line ←
14:15:25 <oedipus> SM: proposal somewhere for "full" so don't have to repeat expansions
Shane McCarron: proposal somewhere for "full" so don't have to repeat expansions ←
14:16:09 <Steven> <abbr id="bbc" full="British Broadcasting Corporation">BBC</a>
Steven Pemberton: <abbr id="bbc" full="British Broadcasting Corporation">BBC</a> ←
14:16:20 <oedipus> MG: RelaxNG shows full attribute available on ABBR
Markus Gylling: RelaxNG shows full attribute available on ABBR ←
14:16:24 <oedipus> GJR: thanks!!!!
Gregory Rosmaita: thanks!!!! ←
14:16:33 <oedipus> f u l l
f u l l ←
14:16:49 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-text.html#sec_9.1.
Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-text.html#sec_9.1. ←
14:16:58 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Initialisms#POINT_3._Building_More_Robust_for.2Fid_Associations_for_Abbreviation_Elements
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Initialisms#POINT_3._Building_More_Robust_for.2Fid_Associations_for_Abbreviation_Elements ←
14:17:08 <Steven> <p>The <span id="w3c">World Wide Web Consortium</span> (<abbr full="#w3c">W3C</abbr>)
Steven Pemberton: <p>The <span id="w3c">World Wide Web Consortium</span> (<abbr full="#w3c">W3C</abbr>) ←
14:17:08 <Steven> develops interoperable technologies (specifications, guidelines, software, and tools)
Steven Pemberton: develops interoperable technologies (specifications, guidelines, software, and tools) ←
14:17:08 <Steven> to lead the Web to its full potential. <abbr full="#w3c">W3C</abbr> is a forum for
Steven Pemberton: to lead the Web to its full potential. <abbr full="#w3c">W3C</abbr> is a forum for ←
14:17:08 <Steven> information, commerce, communication, and collective understanding.</p>
Steven Pemberton: information, commerce, communication, and collective understanding.</p> ←
14:17:32 <oedipus> GJR: doesn't like use of SPAN and id
Gregory Rosmaita: doesn't like use of SPAN and id ←
14:17:59 <oedipus> q?
q? ←
14:18:29 <oedipus> GJR: in your example rather SPAN to provide the ID, what DFN
Gregory Rosmaita: in your example rather SPAN to provide the ID, whata about DFN ←
14:19:12 <oedipus> <dfn id="w3c">World Wide Web Consortium</dfn> (<abbr full="#w3c">W3C</abbr>)
<dfn id="w3c">World Wide Web Consortium</dfn> (<abbr full="#w3c">W3C</abbr>) ←
14:19:25 <oedipus> s/what DFN/whata about DFN
14:19:30 <Zakim> Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time to stop
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time to stop ←
14:19:32 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
14:19:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
14:19:57 <oedipus> SM: CAPTION part of text content set?
Shane McCarron: CAPTION part of text content set? ←
14:20:09 <oedipus> RM: what is its role and how do we define how it is rendered?
Roland Merrick: what is its role and how do we define how it is rendered? ←
14:20:36 <oedipus> SP: CAPTION a child of TABLE -- what else? IMG?
Steven Pemberton: CAPTION a child of TABLE -- what else? IMG? ←
14:21:01 <oedipus> MG: because anything can be image, leads logically to inclusion in common set
Markus Gylling: because anything can be image, leads logically to inclusion in common set ←
14:21:09 <oedipus> SP: yep
Steven Pemberton: yep ←
14:23:10 <oedipus> MG: no or yes on moving @title to legacy and introducing TITLE element
Markus Gylling: no or yes on moving @title to legacy and introducing TITLE element ←
14:23:30 <oedipus> SP: not make legacy, but stating have option to use on or the other
Steven Pemberton: not make legacy, but stating have option to use on or the other ←
14:23:40 <oedipus> SP: @title and TITLE have same meaning
Steven Pemberton: @title and TITLE have same meaning ←
14:23:59 <oedipus> SP: HenryT suggested should be format for attributes that allow them to be children
Steven Pemberton: HenryT suggested should be format for attributes that allow them to be children ←
14:24:18 <oedipus> SP: for simple use, @title attribute ok, if want something richer, use TITLE
Steven Pemberton: for simple use, @title attribute ok, if want something richer, use TITLE ←
14:24:30 <oedipus> RM: deprecate @title in favor of TITLE?
Gregory Rosmaita: deprecate @title in favor of TITLE? ←
14:24:40 <oedipus> s/RM: deprecate/GJR: deprecate
14:24:48 <oedipus> SP: if conflict, child wins
Steven Pemberton: if conflict, child wins ←
14:24:53 <Steven> Not deprecate, just allow both
Steven Pemberton: Not deprecate, just allow both ←
14:25:07 <oedipus> SM: content of title element the tooltip for the entire enclosed element
Shane McCarron: content of title element the tooltip for the entire enclosed element ←
14:25:10 <oedipus> RM: yes
Roland Merrick: yes ←
14:25:34 <oedipus> SM: RDFa - @title has a property of "DC.title" - only for @title in HEAD or all elements?
Shane McCarron: RDFa - @title has a property of "DC.title" - only for @title in HEAD or all elements? ←
14:25:52 <oedipus> SP: attribute and elements; actual reason for title is to provide a DC.title
Steven Pemberton: attribute and elements; actual reason for title is to provide a DC.title ←
14:26:04 <oedipus> SM: never captured that in spec - will add to section currently revising
Shane McCarron: never captured that in spec - will add to section currently revising ←
14:26:37 <oedipus> steven, what about @title and @style deprecated in favor of TITLE and STYLE
steven, what about @title and @style deprecated in favor of TITLE and STYLE ←
14:27:06 <oedipus> SM: takes interpretation; need to explictly state what we mean
Shane McCarron: takes interpretation; need to explictly state what we mean ←
14:27:10 <oedipus> SP: agreed
Steven Pemberton: agreed ←
14:27:35 <oedipus> SM: different TITLE element than one in draft
Shane McCarron: different TITLE element than one in draft ←
14:27:41 <oedipus> SP: not different in meaning
Steven Pemberton: not different in meaning ←
14:28:02 <oedipus> SM: sounds ok
Shane McCarron: sounds ok ←
14:28:28 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to update the title element so it is clear that it can also be used in the text content set and that its contents become the "tooltip" for the enclosing element.
ACTION: Shane to update the title element so it is clear that it can also be used in the text content set and that its contents become the "tooltip" for the enclosing element. ←
14:28:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-56 - Update the title element so it is clear that it can also be used in the text content set and that its contents become the \"tooltip\" for the enclosing element. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-56 - Update the title element so it is clear that it can also be used in the text content set and that its contents become the \"tooltip\" for the enclosing element. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17]. ←
14:28:49 <oedipus> GJR: "tooltip" makes me squirm uncomfortable
Gregory Rosmaita: "tooltip" makes me squirm uncomfortable ←
14:29:08 <oedipus> SM: have to carefully craft text; content of TITLE element becomes tool-tip for HEAD element
Shane McCarron: have to carefully craft text; content of TITLE element becomes tool-tip for HEAD element ←
14:29:21 <oedipus> SP: if made visible, should have tool-tip
Steven Pemberton: if made visible, should have tool-tip ←
14:29:59 <oedipus> SM: when TITLE defined in head, applies to document as whole, when used inline, refers to what it encases
Shane McCarron: when TITLE defined in head, applies to document as whole, when used inline, refers to what it encases ←
14:31:01 <oedipus> SP: since TITLE element says is shorthand for property="title", RDFa already has special rules for children of HEAD which apply to document as whole; shorthand for meta
Steven Pemberton: since TITLE element says is shorthand for property="title", RDFa already has special rules for children of HEAD which apply to document as whole; shorthand for meta ←
14:31:14 <oedipus> RM: would be good to restate that explicitly
Roland Merrick: would be good to restate that explicitly ←
14:31:32 <oedipus> GJR: replace "tooltip" with "user notification"?
Gregory Rosmaita: replace "tooltip" with "user notification"? ←
14:32:00 <oedipus> SM: text module defines text content stuff including TITLE element
Shane McCarron: text module defines text content stuff including TITLE element ←
14:32:20 <oedipus> MG: some elements have structure - lists and tables
Markus Gylling: some elements have structure - lists and tables ←
14:32:42 <oedipus> MG: applies to TABLE, lists, OBJECT, what else?
Markus Gylling: applies to TABLE, lists, OBJECT, what else? ←
14:33:14 <Steven> [take 10]
Steven Pemberton: [take 10] ←
14:33:22 <oedipus> TEN MINUTE BREAK - RECONVENE AT QUARTER TO HOUR
TEN MINUTE BREAK - RECONVENE AT QUARTER TO HOUR ←
14:33:25 <Zakim> -??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P12 ←
14:33:27 <Zakim> -Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Markus ←
14:33:28 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
14:33:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
14:33:33 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←
14:33:39 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
rrsagent, stop ←
14:46:32 <oedipus> Scribe+ Gregory_Rosmaita
(No events recorded for 12 minutes)
Scribe+ Gregory_Rosmaita ←
14:46:49 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←
14:46:58 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
14:46:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
14:47:20 <Zakim> +Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Markus ←
14:47:20 <Zakim> +??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7 ←
14:47:29 <ShaneM> zakim, ??p7 is ShaneM
Shane McCarron: zakim, ??p7 is ShaneM ←
14:47:29 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←
14:47:35 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
zakim, who is here? ←
14:47:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, ShaneM ←
14:47:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see Roland, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, oedipus, Markus, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Roland, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, oedipus, Markus, trackbot ←
14:49:03 <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Shaping
14:49:17 <oedipus> RM: suggest moving on to "TOPIC: Title Element and meta properties"
Roland Merrick: suggest moving on to "TOPIC: Title Element and meta properties" ←
14:49:49 <oedipus> RM: can determine if earlier decision impacts title
Roland Merrick: can determine if earlier decision impacts title ←
14:49:59 <oedipus> TOPIC: Title Element and meta properties
14:50:24 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0045.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0045.html ←
14:50:36 <oedipus> RM: related to earlier discussion on title
Roland Merrick: related to earlier discussion on title ←
14:51:35 <oedipus> SM: reading the definition of TITLE element right now - wanted on agenda because didn't understand how tied together meta property of title ties to the TITLE element
Shane McCarron: reading the definition of TITLE element right now - wanted on agenda because didn't understand how tied together meta property of title ties to the TITLE element ←
14:51:42 <oedipus> SM: have very casual statement in spec
Shane McCarron: have very casual statement in spec ←
14:51:51 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-document.html#edef_document_title
Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-document.html#edef_document_title ←
14:52:37 <oedipus> SM: only place addressed in spec, currently
Shane McCarron: only place addressed in spec, currently ←
14:52:44 <oedipus> SM: thought said that about other things
Shane McCarron: thought said that about other things ←
14:53:06 <oedipus> SM: removed most of meta-data stuff from XHTML2 because it is available via RDFa
Shane McCarron: removed most of meta-data stuff from XHTML2 because it is available via RDFa ←
14:53:48 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-metaAttributes.html#s_metaAttributesmodule
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-metaAttributes.html#s_metaAttributesmodule ←
14:54:11 <oedipus> "This section is normative for purposes of defining the integration of the XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module into XHTML 2. The semantics of the XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module itself are normatively defined in [RDFASYNTAX]. The rules for extracting RDF from XHTML family markup languages are defined in [RDFASYNTAX]. For information on important differences between XHTML 2 and other XHTML family markup languages and how those may relate to RDFa, see
"This section is normative for purposes of defining the integration of the XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module into XHTML 2. The semantics of the XHTML Metainformation Attributes Module itself are normatively defined in [RDFASYNTAX]. The rules for extracting RDF from XHTML family markup languages are defined in [RDFASYNTAX]. For information on important differences between XHTML 2 and other XHTML family markup languages and how those may relate to RDFa, see ←
14:54:32 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/CITE_and_cite
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/CITE_and_cite ←
14:54:47 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 25
Steven Pemberton: zakim, remind me in 25 ←
14:54:48 <Zakim> ok, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven ←
14:55:28 <oedipus> SP: if TITLE equivalent to meta-title, anything meta-title can do TITLE should be able to do
Steven Pemberton: if TITLE equivalent to meta-title, anything meta-title can do TITLE should be able to do ←
14:55:55 <oedipus> SM: disagree - UA not going to look for TITLE in head, name document, but then change title in window frame when encounters new TITLE
Shane McCarron: disagree - UA not going to look for TITLE in head, name document, but then change title in window frame when encounters new TITLE ←
14:56:23 <oedipus> SP: if say TITLE is metadata about document and state that UA has to deal with metadata in uniform way, then we can treat them identically
Steven Pemberton: if say TITLE is metadata about document and state that UA has to deal with metadata in uniform way, then we can treat them identically ←
14:56:43 <oedipus> RM: TITLE is required in HEAD
Roland Merrick: TITLE is required in HEAD ←
14:57:10 <oedipus> RM: RDF processor would have to disambiguate
Roland Merrick: RDF processor would have to disambiguate ←
14:57:48 <oedipus> SP: if metadata, should have 1 story about metadata -- up to now, saying TITLE in HEAD is shorthand for property="DC.title" -- all metadata, should treat all metadata in same way
Steven Pemberton: if metadata, should have 1 story about metadata -- up to now, saying TITLE in HEAD is shorthand for property="DC.title" -- all metadata, should treat all metadata in same way ←
14:58:10 <oedipus> RM: as the TITLE element is currently defined is a moot point; don't need processor to look anywhere but HEAD
Roland Merrick: as the TITLE element is currently defined is a moot point; don't need processor to look anywhere but HEAD ←
14:58:29 <oedipus> SM: Steven trying to divorce those issues, which may be a good thing
Shane McCarron: Steven trying to divorce those issues, which may be a good thing ←
14:58:48 <Steven> I think they are orthogonal
Steven Pemberton: I think they are orthogonal ←
14:59:01 <oedipus> SM: don't believe that we have anything in XHTML2 to date othere than following sentence that implies that UA has to understand anything about RDFa
Shane McCarron: don't believe that we have anything in XHTML2 to date othere than following sentence that implies that UA has to understand anything about RDFa ←
14:59:55 <oedipus> SM: lots of properties that have interesting correspondences with existing elements
Shane McCarron: lots of properties that have interesting correspondences with existing elements ←
15:00:30 <oedipus> SM: more appropriate for us to put requirements on RDFa processors - that they extract semantics from markup; put reqs on UA that interpret properties as markup
Shane McCarron: more appropriate for us to put requirements on RDFa processors - that they extract semantics from markup; put reqs on UA that interpret properties as markup ←
15:00:44 <oedipus> SP: what do you mean by "interpret properties as markup"?
Steven Pemberton: what do you mean by "interpret properties as markup"? ←
15:01:02 <oedipus> SP: RDFa generalized method to add meta-data -- want to integrate the 2
Steven Pemberton: RDFa generalized method to add meta-data -- want to integrate the 2 ←
15:01:14 <oedipus> SM: should be integrated in regards metadata
Shane McCarron: should be integrated in regards metadata ←
15:01:37 <oedipus> SM: UA looks at elements for attributes and does things with them; what it does with them is metadata
Shane McCarron: UA looks at elements for attributes and does things with them; what it does with them is metadata ←
15:02:44 <oedipus> SP: triples are simply a way of storing metadata; unified how metadata works in XHTML, underlying info the same no matter what format stored in; HTML browser takes part of metadata and puts in window title doesn't change fact that TITLE in HEAD is metadata
Steven Pemberton: triples are simply a way of storing metadata; unified how metadata works in XHTML, underlying info the same no matter what format stored in; HTML browser takes part of metadata and puts in window title doesn't change fact that TITLE in HEAD is metadata ←
15:02:51 <oedipus> RM: UA has to hunt for RDFa
Roland Merrick: UA has to hunt for RDFa ←
15:03:22 <oedipus> SP: why "hunting"? TITLE element or META property="DC.title" -- both should be stored in same way
Steven Pemberton: why "hunting"? TITLE element or META property="DC.title" -- both should be stored in same way ←
15:03:38 <oedipus> SM: UAs don't look at metainfo; for servers, archiving, etc.
Shane McCarron: UAs don't look at metainfo; for servers, archiving, etc. ←
15:03:57 <oedipus> SP: my UA supplies bar across the top that tells me all about the metadata and enables me to use them
Steven Pemberton: my UA supplies bar across the top that tells me all about the metadata and enables me to use them ←
15:04:23 <oedipus> SP: at top of XHTML2 draft, button to take me home, button to take to previous, etc. -- plucking out metadata from head and doing something with it
Steven Pemberton: at top of XHTML2 draft, button to take me home, button to take to previous, etc. -- plucking out metadata from head and doing something with it ←
15:04:40 <oedipus> RM: not expected to understand arbitrary RDFa properties
Roland Merrick: not expected to understand arbitrary RDFa properties ←
15:04:54 <oedipus> SP: no, just doesn't matter origin of metadata, UA should respond in uniform way
Steven Pemberton: no, just doesn't matter origin of metadata, UA should respond in uniform way ←
15:05:00 <oedipus> SM: have a vocabulary for that
Shane McCarron: have a vocabulary for that ←
15:05:14 <oedipus> SP: in doc say TITLE element equivalent to title property for document
Steven Pemberton: in doc say TITLE element equivalent to title property for document ←
15:05:37 <oedipus> SM: challanging fact that say that in 1 sentence; think unreasonable requirement on UA
Shane McCarron: challanging fact that say that in 1 sentence; think unreasonable requirement on UA ←
15:06:00 <oedipus> SP: not unreasonable - metadata is metadata; would be mistake to separate them -- how to differentiate?
Steven Pemberton: not unreasonable - metadata is metadata; would be mistake to separate them -- how to differentiate? ←
15:06:06 <oedipus> SP: should be unified
Steven Pemberton: should be unified ←
15:06:49 <oedipus> SM: if going to say UAs interpret "well-known metadata in XML vocabulary" as document properties, RDFa processors must extract other metadata?
Shane McCarron: if going to say UAs interpret "well-known metadata in XML vocabulary" as document properties, RDFa processors must extract other metadata? ←
15:07:01 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/
Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/ ←
15:07:14 <oedipus> RM: clarification question: we have metadata defined in vocab document, but not included in vocab
Roland Merrick: clarification question: we have metadata defined in vocab document, but title not included in vocab ←
15:07:28 <oedipus> GJR: vocab needs to be updated with LC aria roles
Gregory Rosmaita: vocab needs to be updated with LC aria roles ←
15:07:38 <oedipus> SM: took out of vocab because RDFa handles that now
Shane McCarron: took out of vocab because RDFa handles that now ←
15:07:50 <oedipus> SM: forgot we had removed from the vocab document
Shane McCarron: forgot we had removed from the vocab document ←
15:08:13 <oedipus> s/but not included/but title not included/
15:08:46 <oedipus> SM: example in section 7.3 needs to change - no property "title"
Shane McCarron: example in section 7.3 needs to change - no property "title" ←
15:09:26 <oedipus> SM: do have defined vocabulary collection; doesn't have to be a title term in it, but there are other terms; do these have corresponding attributes in XML
Shane McCarron: do have defined vocabulary collection; doesn't have to be a title term in it, but there are other terms; do these have corresponding attributes in XML ←
15:09:32 <oedipus> RM: have to define it;
Roland Merrick: have to define it; ←
15:09:34 <oedipus> q_
q_ ←
15:09:37 <oedipus> q+
q+ ←
15:10:03 <oedipus> SM: if turn whole thing around - there is this mapping, want unified method of metadata, RDFa processors need to extract as well
Shane McCarron: if turn whole thing around - there is this mapping, want unified method of metadata, RDFa processors need to extract as well ←
15:10:12 <Steven> ack o
Steven Pemberton: ack o ←
15:10:12 <oedipus> ack oe
ack oe ←
15:11:33 <oedipus> SM: unified view needs both sides of problem described?
Shane McCarron: unified view needs both sides of problem described? ←
15:11:36 <oedipus> SP: definitely
Steven Pemberton: definitely ←
15:11:49 <oedipus> SP: RDFa is described for XHTML 1.1 + RDFa
Steven Pemberton: RDFa is described for XHTML 1.1 + RDFa ←
15:12:13 <oedipus> q+ to say want to discuss bringing CITE and @cite into harmony
q+ to say want to discuss bringing CITE and @cite into harmony ←
15:12:45 <oedipus> ack oe
ack oe ←
15:12:45 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say want to discuss bringing CITE and @cite into harmony
Zakim IRC Bot: oedipus, you wanted to say want to discuss bringing CITE and @cite into harmony ←
15:13:03 <oedipus> GJR: discussion of bringing CITE element in line with the @cite
Gregory Rosmaita: discussion of bringing CITE element in line with the @cite ←
15:13:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/CITE_and_cite
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/CITE_and_cite ←
15:14:03 <oedipus> SP: CITE and @cite do need to be unified
Steven Pemberton: CITE and @cite do need to be unified ←
15:14:14 <oedipus> SP: don't know why need @cite element
Steven Pemberton: don't know why need cite element ←
15:14:25 <Steven> s/@//
15:14:35 <oedipus> GJR: 2 scenarios - one is as a pointer to CITE element for that resource
Gregory Rosmaita: 2 scenarios - one is as a pointer to CITE element for that resource ←
15:14:53 <oedipus> GJR: the other is text string that contains human-parseable information
Gregory Rosmaita: the other is text string that contains human-parseable information ←
15:15:50 <oedipus> "Precis: In XHTML2, any element may have a href attribute. Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain hu
"Precis: In XHTML2, any element may have a href attribute. Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain hu ←
15:16:09 <oedipus> SP: CITE element gives human readable text - provides attribute that says where citing from
Steven Pemberton: CITE element gives human readable text - provides attribute that says where citing from ←
15:16:25 <oedipus> SP: Q and BLOCKQUOTE use @cite as @src
Steven Pemberton: Q and BLOCKQUOTE use @cite as @src ←
15:16:38 <oedipus> SP: why need @cite attribute if CITE does same work
Steven Pemberton: why need @cite attribute if CITE does same work ←
15:17:04 <oedipus> <section role="main">
<section role="main"> ←
15:17:04 <oedipus> <q for="fdr3i"
<q for="fdr3i" ←
15:17:04 <oedipus> href="http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/exegesis/fdr-third-inaugural.html#fdr3ip36s1"
href="http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/exegesis/fdr-third-inaugural.html#fdr3ip36s1" ←
15:17:04 <oedipus> cite="Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Third Innaugural Address; January 20, 1941"
cite="Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Third Innaugural Address; January 20, 1941" ←
15:17:04 <oedipus> >In the face of great perils never before encountered, our strong
>In the face of great perils never before encountered, our strong ←
15:17:05 <oedipus> purpose is to protect and to perpetuate the integrity of democracy.
purpose is to protect and to perpetuate the integrity of democracy. ←
15:17:07 <oedipus> </q>
</q> ←
15:17:09 <oedipus> <!-- ... -->
<!-- ... --> ←
15:17:11 <oedipus> </section>
</section> ←
15:17:13 <oedipus> <section role="secondary">
<section role="secondary"> ←
15:17:15 <oedipus> <h id="biblio">Bibliography</h>
<h id="biblio">Bibliography</h> ←
15:17:17 <oedipus> <ol>
<ol> ←
15:17:19 <oedipus> <li role="contentinfo"><cite id="fdr3i"
<li role="contentinfo"><cite id="fdr3i" ←
15:17:21 <oedipus> src="http://www.fdrpapers.gov/fdr3i.html"
src="http://www.fdrpapers.gov/fdr3i.html" ←
15:17:23 <oedipus> >Roosevelt, Franklin Delano. Third Inaugural Address. Delivered
>Roosevelt, Franklin Delano. Third Inaugural Address. Delivered ←
15:17:25 <oedipus> before a joint session of congress, January 20, 1941. (official
before a joint session of congress, January 20, 1941. (official ←
15:17:27 <oedipus> White House transcript)</li>
White House transcript)</li> ←
15:17:29 <oedipus> </ol>
</ol> ←
15:17:31 <oedipus> <!-- ... -->
<!-- ... --> ←
15:17:33 <oedipus> </section>
</section> ←
15:18:17 <oedipus> "Since href and src are available globally, why retain the cite attribute in its current form? Why not seize the opportunity presented by XHTML2's charter to make cite the attribute equivalent of the CITE element -- a means of identifying human-parseable citations of a work by title, author and date, as illustrated in the following example, which contains a quote from FDR's Third Inaugural Address: "
"Since href and src are available globally, why retain the cite attribute in its current form? Why not seize the opportunity presented by XHTML2's charter to make cite the attribute equivalent of the CITE element -- a means of identifying human-parseable citations of a work by title, author and date, as illustrated in the following example, which contains a quote from FDR's Third Inaugural Address: " ←
15:18:36 <Steven> By the way, I said the opposite - we don't need CITE element, since @cite adds the necessary magic to any element
Steven Pemberton: By the way, I said the opposite - we don't need CITE element, since @cite adds the necessary magic to any element ←
15:18:48 <oedipus> oops, sorry steven
oops, sorry steven ←
15:19:46 <oedipus> GJR: i suggested tying CITE element to Q and BLOCKQUOTE, etc. by a for/id mechanism
Gregory Rosmaita: i suggested tying CITE element to Q and BLOCKQUOTE, etc. by a for/id mechanism ←
15:19:48 <Zakim> Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time ←
15:20:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute ←
15:20:22 <ShaneM> What does this mean in terms of document meta data? In terms of the Role module? In terms of assistive technologies? <img src="some.jpg" property="role" about="#this" id="this" content="xv:banner" />
Shane McCarron: What does this mean in terms of document meta data? In terms of the Role module? In terms of assistive technologies? <img src="some.jpg" property="xv:role" about="#this" id="this" content="xv:banner" /> ←
15:20:46 <Steven> s/role/xv:role/
15:21:44 <oedipus> SM: point is "if RDFa style annotation affects way UAs treat metadata globally, UA and AT have to know what RDFa applies to
Shane McCarron: point is "if RDFa style annotation affects way UAs treat metadata globally, UA and AT have to know what RDFa applies to ←
15:22:06 <oedipus> TOPIC: proposal: reintroduce @for into the Core attribute collection
15:22:11 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0066.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0066.html ←
15:22:11 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute ←
15:22:57 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0076.html
Roland Merrick: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0076.html ←
15:23:00 <oedipus> TOPIC: metadata (slight return)
15:23:25 <oedipus> RM: don't think we finished discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0076.html
Roland Merrick: don't think we finished discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0076.html ←
15:24:31 <oedipus> "In XHTML 2 we have meta only taking "Common" as its attributes. That
"In XHTML 2 we have meta only taking "Common" as its attributes. That ←
15:24:32 <oedipus> means we are dropping name, scheme, and http-equiv. I am pretty sure we
means we are dropping name, scheme, and http-equiv. I am pretty sure we ←
15:24:32 <oedipus> dropped http-equiv on purpose, but I feel like name and scheme should
dropped http-equiv on purpose, but I feel like name and scheme should ←
15:24:32 <oedipus> still be there?"
still be there?" ←
15:25:12 <oedipus> SP: for http-equiv, said ought to be done differently --- http-equiv mixes a lot of things in one bucket (media type and encoding, just 2)
Steven Pemberton: for http-equiv, said ought to be done differently --- http-equiv mixes a lot of things in one bucket (media type and encoding, just 2) ←
15:25:56 <oedipus> SP: @name i'm not sure upon; if attempting to be compatible with old XHTML, leave @name on META in same way left on A (anchor) for legacy content so works in both old and new UAs
Steven Pemberton: @name i'm not sure upon; if attempting to be compatible with old XHTML, leave @name on META in same way left on A (anchor) for legacy content so works in both old and new UAs ←
15:26:22 <oedipus> SP: if don't care about legacy, would suggest drop @name and use meta properties
Steven Pemberton: if don't care about legacy, would suggest drop @name and use meta properties ←
15:27:10 <oedipus> SP: can do META in body -- that's what RDFa is all about -- don't have scheme there, so why in HEAD because of BODY?
Steven Pemberton: can do META in body -- that's what RDFa is all about -- don't have scheme there, so why in HEAD because of BODY? ←
15:27:26 <oedipus> SM: raised issue because wanted to determine if wanted to be backwards compatible
Shane McCarron: raised issue because wanted to determine if wanted to be backwards compatible ←
15:27:37 <oedipus> SM: don't think @name or @scheme should be retained
Shane McCarron: don't think @name or @scheme should be retained ←
15:27:41 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to SM
Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 to SM ←
15:28:05 <oedipus> SM: larger issue:
Shane McCarron: larger issue: ←
15:28:34 <oedipus> SM: what it means for document metadata - META element anywhere in document, related issue
Shane McCarron: what it means for document metadata - META element anywhere in document, related issue ←
15:28:39 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-meta.html#s_metamodule
Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-meta.html#s_metamodule ←
15:29:22 <oedipus> SM: currently if look at content model for meta and link, link permits active links, meta permits PCDATA (to support RDFa in early stages) -- overcome by events, could put in historical module
Shane McCarron: currently if look at content model for meta and link, link permits active links, meta permits PCDATA (to support RDFa in early stages) -- overcome by events, could put in historical module ←
15:29:36 <oedipus> SP: functionality of supplying META in body is provided by other means
Steven Pemberton: functionality of supplying META in body is provided by other means ←
15:30:07 <oedipus> SM: rich content in META may break support for XHTML2 in current user agents; should not have rich content model for meta or link
Shane McCarron: rich content in META may break support for XHTML2 in current user agents; should not have rich content model for meta or link ←
15:30:11 <oedipus> SP: can live with that
Steven Pemberton: can live with that ←
15:30:35 <oedipus> RM: if have alternative, let's stick with that -- keep as easy as possible
Roland Merrick: if have alternative, let's stick with that -- keep as easy as possible ←
15:31:16 <oedipus> RESOLVED: remove @name or @scheme from XHTML2; investigate feasibility of historical module
RESOLVED: remove @name or @scheme from XHTML2; investigate feasibility of historical module ←
15:32:22 <oedipus> SP: in terms of what META does now, defined using RDFa techniques, easy to assert -- span in xhtml; nothing extra needs to be done in body -- can have nested spans with properties; not functional but purely syntatic
Steven Pemberton: in terms of what META does now, defined using RDFa techniques, easy to assert -- span in xhtml; nothing extra needs to be done in body -- can have nested spans with properties; not functional but purely syntatic ←
15:32:59 <oedipus> SP: doesn't add extra functionality, but does add consistency; removing fences is best; but don't feel strongly either way
Steven Pemberton: doesn't add extra functionality, but does add consistency; removing fences is best; but don't feel strongly either way ←
15:33:03 <oedipus> q?
q? ←
15:34:15 <oedipus> SP: channelling MarkBirbeck -- having a HEAD is an historical artifact; could just have TITLE in BODY; only reason HEAD there was to mark "stuff not presented to user" before CSS; nowadays, distinction between HEAD and BODY less relevant
Steven Pemberton: channelling MarkBirbeck -- having a HEAD is an historical artifact; could just have TITLE in BODY; only reason HEAD there was to mark "stuff not presented to user" before CSS; nowadays, distinction between HEAD and BODY less relevant ←
15:35:01 <oedipus> SM: should we permit nested META elements
Shane McCarron: should we permit nested META elements ←
15:35:09 <oedipus> SM: i say "no" because not supported
Shane McCarron: i say "no" because not supported ←
15:35:17 <oedipus> SM: but do understand other side
Shane McCarron: but do understand other side ←
15:35:34 <oedipus> RM: is nested META only way to achieve what looking for?
Roland Merrick: is nested META only way to achieve what looking for? ←
15:35:41 <oedipus> SM: in HEAD it is; in BODY can use RDFa
Shane McCarron: in HEAD it is; in BODY can use RDFa ←
15:36:48 <oedipus> MG: in DAISY have group working on RDFa expression of library cataloging standards; want to express standards using RDFa; triples not enough to capture contents of RDF -- need to associate triples with a scheme; developers happy that META elements can be nested in XHTML2
Markus Gylling: in DAISY have group working on RDFa expression of library cataloging standards; want to express standards using RDFa; triples not enough to capture contents of RDF -- need to associate triples with a scheme; developers happy that META elements can be nested in XHTML2 ←
15:37:09 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to revert the link and meta content models to their XHTML M12N 1.1 content model but permit nested meta elements in the head. Do not permit @name and @scheme on meta though - they are not needed.
ACTION: Shane to revert the link and meta content models to their XHTML M12N 1.1 content model but permit nested meta elements in the head. Do not permit @name and @scheme on meta though - they are not needed. ←
15:37:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-57 - Revert the link and meta content models to their XHTML M12N 1.1 content model but permit nested meta elements in the head. Do not permit @name and @scheme on meta though - they are not needed. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-57 - Revert the link and meta content models to their XHTML M12N 1.1 content model but permit nested meta elements in the head. Do not permit @name and @scheme on meta though - they are not needed. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17]. ←
15:37:11 <oedipus> SP: if a use case and request, then should do it; those who don't want to use it can ignore it, those who do want to use nested META can
Steven Pemberton: if a use case and request, then should do it; those who don't want to use it can ignore it, those who do want to use nested META can ←
15:37:18 <oedipus> SM: In XHTML 2 we have meta only taking "Common" as its attributes. That
Shane McCarron: In XHTML 2 we have meta only taking "Common" as its attributes. That ←
15:37:18 <oedipus> means we are dropping name, scheme, and http-equiv. I am pretty sure we
means we are dropping name, scheme, and http-equiv. I am pretty sure we ←
15:37:18 <oedipus> dropped http-equiv on purpose, but I feel like name and scheme should
dropped http-equiv on purpose, but I feel like name and scheme should ←
15:37:18 <oedipus> still be there?
still be there? ←
15:37:39 <oedipus> RM: can be satisfied by other approach?
Roland Merrick: can be satisfied by other approach? ←
15:37:55 <oedipus> SM: Markus, can you provide me with details on nested META use cases?
Shane McCarron: Markus, can you provide me with details on nested META use cases? ←
15:38:05 <oedipus> MG: will do
Markus Gylling: will do ←
15:38:12 <oedipus> timer, stop
timer, stop ←
15:38:13 <Steven> ack me
Steven Pemberton: ack me ←
15:38:22 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 30
Steven Pemberton: zakim, remind me in 30 ←
15:38:22 <Zakim> ok, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven ←
15:38:57 <oedipus> TOPIC: proposal: reintroduce @for into the Core attribute collection
15:38:59 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0066.html
Roland Merrick: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0066.html ←
15:39:03 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0066.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0066.html ←
15:39:03 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute ←
15:39:54 <oedipus> SP: one thing about @for that has been raised in past -- existing @for on LABEL i am a big opponent of, as is TV Raman, because it is a presentation kludge; don't know which label is attached to which control and have to link them explicitly using for/id
Steven Pemberton: one thing about @for that has been raised in past -- existing @for on LABEL i am a big opponent of, as is TV Raman, because it is a presentation kludge; don't know which label is attached to which control and have to link them explicitly using for/id ←
15:40:27 <oedipus> SP: in XHTML2, not possible for LABEL to be separated from control; presentation methodology where appears on screen, so don't need @for for that purpose
Steven Pemberton: in XHTML2, not possible for LABEL to be separated from control; presentation methodology where appears on screen, so don't need @for for that purpose ←
15:40:48 <oedipus> SP: however, i do like the use of for/id to link Q and CITE and other links
Steven Pemberton: however, i do like the use of for/id to link Q and CITE and other links ←
15:41:31 <oedipus> GJR: one of the request i fielded about INS and DEL is that there is no way of binding what is being deleted to what has been inserted and i suggested that for/id relationship could fill that need
Gregory Rosmaita: one of the request i fielded about INS and DEL is that there is no way of binding what is being deleted to what has been inserted and i suggested that for/id relationship could fill that need ←
15:41:51 <oedipus> <INS id="insert13">This is the new text</INS>
<INS id="insert13">This is the new text</INS> ←
15:41:51 <oedipus> <DEL for="insert11">This is the text to be deleted.</DEL>
<DEL for="insert13">This is the text to be deleted.</DEL> ←
15:42:15 <oedipus> s/for=insert11"
s/for=insert11" ←
15:42:27 <oedipus> s/for="insert11"/for="insert13"
15:42:32 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
15:42:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
15:43:03 <oedipus> proposed:
PROPOSED: ←
15:43:04 <oedipus> 1. That the for/id mechanism, which is already broadly supported in user agents and assistive technologies, be reused and extended in XHTML2 to provide explicit bindings between labelling text and the object or objects that text labels;
1. That the for/id mechanism, which is already broadly supported in user agents and assistive technologies, be reused and extended in XHTML2 to provide explicit bindings between labelling text and the object or objects that text labels; ←
15:43:08 <oedipus> 2. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of re-using values for ABBR, D, DFN, Q and CITE;
2. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of re-using values for ABBR, D, DFN, Q and CITE; ←
15:43:14 <oedipus> 3. A for/id relationship should also be used to mark the text which has been inserted, contained in an INS, and that which it is intended to replace, contained in a DEL tag, as in the following example:
3. A for/id relationship should also be used to mark the text which has been inserted, contained in an INS, and that which it is intended to replace, contained in a DEL tag, as in the following example: ←
15:44:18 <oedipus> GJR: value would be IDREF
Gregory Rosmaita: value would be IDREF ←
15:44:51 <oedipus> GJR: comments?
Gregory Rosmaita: comments? ←
15:44:59 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute ←
15:45:34 <oedipus> SP: instead of "full" on ABBR use "for" on ABBR
Steven Pemberton: instead of "full" on ABBR use "for" on ABBR ←
15:45:47 <oedipus> <dfn full="expansion">
<dfn full="expansion"> ←
15:46:29 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Initialisms
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Initialisms ←
15:48:27 <oedipus> SP: appreciate idea, but if going to generalize @for, have to ensure there is a general meaning - what does a SPAN for="" -- should only be added to common if used in single way
Steven Pemberton: appreciate idea, but if going to generalize @for, have to ensure there is a general meaning - what does a SPAN for="" -- should only be added to common if used in single way ←
15:48:51 <oedipus> RM: difficulties of common -- already very large
Roland Merrick: difficulties of common -- already very large ←
15:49:21 <oedipus> SP: if has general meaning should be in common - principle if attributes are generalizable, then more useful
Steven Pemberton: if has general meaning should be in common - principle if attributes are generalizable, then more useful ←
15:49:40 <oedipus> GJR: @id globally for free,
Gregory Rosmaita: @id globally for free, ←
15:50:18 <oedipus> GJR: @for - purpose to establish explicit bindings and a re-use mechanism
Gregory Rosmaita: @for - purpose to establish explicit bindings and a re-use mechanism ←
15:50:47 <oedipus> RM: limited set of elements?
Roland Merrick: limited set of elements? ←
15:51:10 <oedipus> RM: start with expansion and then consider if should be common element
Roland Merrick: start with expansion and then consider if should be common element ←
15:51:17 <oedipus> RM: references to common definition
Roland Merrick: references to common definition ←
15:52:19 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - investigate use cases for genericizing @for to ascertain if should be added to common/core attributes
ACTION: Gregory - investigate use cases for genericizing @for to ascertain if should be added to common/core attributes ←
15:52:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-58 - - investigate use cases for genericizing @for to ascertain if should be added to common/core attributes [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-03-17].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-58 - - investigate use cases for genericizing @for to ascertain if should be added to common/core attributes [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-03-17]. ←
15:52:59 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - is @for useful in specific cases (enumerate) or can it be used generally
ACTION: Gregory - is @for useful in specific cases (enumerate) or can it be used generally ←
15:52:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-59 - - is @for useful in specific cases (enumerate) or can it be used generally [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-03-17].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-59 - - is @for useful in specific cases (enumerate) or can it be used generally [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-03-17]. ←
15:53:17 <oedipus> GJR: will provide concrete examples as per RM's suggestin
Gregory Rosmaita: will provide concrete examples as per RM's suggestion ←
15:53:24 <oedipus> s/suggestin/suggestion
15:53:55 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute ←
15:54:36 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←
15:55:51 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←
15:56:20 <Steven> TOPIC: INS and DEL
15:56:21 <oedipus> TOPIC: INS and DEL
15:56:42 <ShaneM> Trying to remember what we agreed...
Shane McCarron: Trying to remember what we agreed... ←
15:56:52 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup ←
15:57:13 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/MOD
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/MOD ←
15:58:18 <Steven> ack me
Steven Pemberton: ack me ←
15:58:24 <oedipus> SP: why elements over attributes
Steven Pemberton: why elements over attributes ←
15:58:31 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 28
Steven Pemberton: zakim, remind me in 28 ←
15:58:31 <Zakim> ok, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven ←
15:58:35 <oedipus> GJR: to keep the attributes from being attached to SPAN
Gregory Rosmaita: to keep the attributes from being attached to SPAN ←
16:00:02 <oedipus> SM: should have to insert elements for elements sake -- shouldn't need INS or DEL to carry this information; one option is use of semanticless element by adding attributes to annotate a change, the other is to do it declaratively with elements
Shane McCarron: should have to insert elements for elements sake -- shouldn't need INS or DEL to carry this information; one option is use of semanticless element by adding attributes to annotate a change, the other is to do it declaratively with elements ←
16:01:17 <ShaneM> Content models of historical INS and DEL are not supportable.
Shane McCarron: Content models of historical INS and DEL are not supportable. ←
16:01:42 <oedipus> * Roland's straw-man example: @diff, with values of add, chg, del
* Roland's straw-man example: @diff, with values of add, chg, del ←
16:02:10 <ShaneM> So it is possible to have them within the text module as a way of having elements with explicit semantics as opposed to inserting a "span"...
Shane McCarron: So it is possible to have them within the text module as a way of having elements with explicit semantics as opposed to inserting a "span"... ←
16:02:28 <oedipus> is d<DEL>i</DEL><INS>o</INS> legal?
is d<DEL>i</DEL><INS>o</INS> legal? ←
16:02:45 <oedipus> is d<DEL>i</DEL><INS>o</INS>g legal?
is d<DEL>i</DEL><INS>o</INS>g legal? ←
16:02:58 <oedipus> 1. a means of marking editorial changes;
1. a means of marking editorial changes; ←
16:02:58 <oedipus> 2. a means of classifying an editorial change;
2. a means of classifying an editorial change; ←
16:02:58 <oedipus> 3. a means of conveying when and by whom the change was affected;
3. a means of conveying when and by whom the change was affected; ←
16:02:58 <oedipus> 4. a means of binding an insertion with a deletion
4. a means of binding an insertion with a deletion ←
16:03:17 <oedipus> Question 1: should the above-listed attributes be handled using RDFa, rather than element-specific attributes?
Question 1: should the above-listed attributes be handled using RDFa, rather than element-specific attributes? ←
16:03:39 <oedipus> Question 2: "what should be the mechanism used to add context and history to an INS or DEL element by using @src to link directly to the text that has been modified? "
Question 2: "what should be the mechanism used to add context and history to an INS or DEL element by using @src to link directly to the text that has been modified? " ←
16:03:57 <ShaneM> WOW - wonder if these modification elements/attributes define document properties that need tied in meta data via RDFa?
Shane McCarron: WOW - wonder if these modification elements/attributes define document properties that need tied in meta data via RDFa? ←
16:04:17 <oedipus> ould MOD with @src be handled differently than @src on other elements? should @href be used instead?
ould MOD with @src be handled differently than @src on other elements? should @href be used instead? ←
16:05:16 <oedipus> SM: don't understand how RDFa ties into this
Shane McCarron: don't understand how RDFa ties into this ←
16:05:29 <oedipus> GJR: just tasked to see if RDFa could satisfy use cases
Gregory Rosmaita: just tasked to see if RDFa could satisfy use cases ←
16:05:40 <oedipus> RM: fact of insertion and deletion more than RDFa
Roland Merrick: fact of insertion and deletion more than RDFa ←
16:06:23 <oedipus> GJR: RDFa is useful for marking who made the change - when was made
Gregory Rosmaita: RDFa is useful for marking who made the change - when was made ←
16:07:21 <oedipus> SM: can make a triple out of anything, but just because one can doesn't mean one should
Shane McCarron: can make a triple out of anything, but just because one can doesn't mean one should ←
16:07:49 <oedipus> SM: information interesting to those data-mining; implicit relationship between who, the when and the what of the change should be sloughed off on RDFa
Shane McCarron: information interesting to those data-mining; implicit relationship between who, the when and the what of the change should be sloughed off on RDFa ←
16:08:07 <oedipus> SP: details of who made change is metadata, and if is metadata, then should be treated as metadata
Steven Pemberton: details of who made change is metadata, and if is metadata, then should be treated as metadata ←
16:08:17 <oedipus> SP: all metadata should be treated the same
Steven Pemberton: all metadata should be treated the same ←
16:08:22 <Zakim> Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time ←
16:08:51 <oedipus> SM: follow that to the logical end - every paragraph is metadata -- everything can be tagged metadata
Shane McCarron: follow that to the logical end - every paragraph is metadata -- everything can be tagged metadata ←
16:09:19 <oedipus> SP: don't consider P metadata, but person who changed contents of P (data about data) is metadata
Steven Pemberton: don't consider P metadata, but person who changed contents of P (data about data) is metadata ←
16:09:37 <oedipus> SM: can argue pretty cogently that everything is metadata
Shane McCarron: can argue pretty cogently that everything is metadata ←
16:10:13 <oedipus> RM: this is data that has been inserted; this has been inserted; don't care who wrote or when or why?
Roland Merrick: this is data that has been inserted; this has been inserted; don't care who wrote or when or why? ←
16:10:30 <oedipus> GJR: right but that underlying should be able to provided to a user who wants to know it
Gregory Rosmaita: right but that underlying should be able to provided to a user who wants to know it ←
16:11:21 <oedipus> 1. a means of marking editorial changes;
1. a means of marking editorial changes; ←
16:11:29 <oedipus> 2. a means of classifying an editorial change;
2. a means of classifying an editorial change; ←
16:11:37 <oedipus> 3. a means of conveying when and by whom the change was affected;
3. a means of conveying when and by whom the change was affected; ←
16:11:50 <oedipus> 4. a means of binding an insertion with a deletion through for/id
4. a means of binding an insertion with a deletion through for/id ←
16:13:19 <oedipus> RM: 1 and 2 tied together
Roland Merrick: 1 and 2 tied together ←
16:13:21 <oedipus> GJR: yes
Gregory Rosmaita: yes ←
16:13:47 <oedipus> GJR: important new consideration is 4 - binding waht has been deleted to what has been instered when both are in the same document
Gregory Rosmaita: important new consideration is 4 - binding waht has been deleted to what has been instered when both are in the same document ←
16:14:57 <oedipus> RM: that is metadata -- have to INS something in several places in document -- all created by same purpose and on same page -- bunch of changes for particular purpose
Roland Merrick: that is metadata -- have to INS something in several places in document -- all created by same purpose and on same page -- bunch of changes for particular purpose ←
16:15:19 <oedipus> GJR: one thing we discuss was INS and DEL as inline and MOD as the block element for marking change
Gregory Rosmaita: one thing we discussed was INS and DEL as inline and MOD as the block element for marking change ←
16:15:36 <oedipus> s/we discuss/we discussed
16:17:07 <oedipus> SP: attributist - not big fan of reintroducing these elements; use of generic SPAN is frowned upon by some
Steven Pemberton: attributist - not big fan of reintroducing these elements; use of generic SPAN is frowned upon by some ←
16:17:56 <oedipus> SM: should i conclude you are in favor of including INS and DEL
Shane McCarron: should i conclude you are in favor of including INS and DEL ←
16:17:58 <oedipus> GJR: yes
Gregory Rosmaita: yes ←
16:18:22 <oedipus> RM: can't get excited over issue - can live with attributes or elements, as long as elements are local in scope
Roland Merrick: can't get excited over issue - can live with attributes or elements, as long as elements are local in scope ←
16:18:49 <oedipus> RM: insert a section with an INS shouldn't be allowed
Roland Merrick: insert a section with an INS shouldn't be allowed ←
16:18:53 <oedipus> SM: agree
Shane McCarron: agree ←
16:19:00 <oedipus> SM: how opposed are you, steven?
Shane McCarron: how opposed are you, steven? ←
16:19:48 <oedipus> SP: not sure -- very much prefer attribute solution, but understand long history of element version;
Steven Pemberton: not sure -- very much prefer attribute solution, but understand long history of element version; ←
16:20:15 <oedipus> SP: on the other hand, point of moving to XHTML2 is removing elements that mark up structures, but semantics
Steven Pemberton: on the other hand, point of moving to XHTML2 is removing elements that mark up structures, but semantics ←
16:20:31 <oedipus> SP: part of semantics, not structure which is why i prefer attribute solution
Steven Pemberton: part of semantics, not structure which is why i prefer attribute solution ←
16:20:48 <ShaneM> PROPOSAL: introduce the INS and DEL elements as "legacy" in their own module and only in the text content set.
PROPOSED: introduce the INS and DEL elements as "legacy" in their own module and only in the text content set. ←
16:20:59 <oedipus> MG: could we put it in legacy module?
Markus Gylling: could we put it in legacy module? ←
16:21:03 <oedipus> SP: could live with that
Steven Pemberton: could live with that ←
16:21:06 <oedipus> GJR: so could i
Gregory Rosmaita: so could i ←
16:21:15 <oedipus> RM: sounds ok to me
Roland Merrick: sounds ok to me ←
16:21:28 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to develop a legacy INS and DEL module that adds those elements to the text content set.
ACTION: Shane to develop a legacy INS and DEL module that adds those elements to the text content set. ←
16:21:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-60 - Develop a legacy INS and DEL module that adds those elements to the text content set. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-60 - Develop a legacy INS and DEL module that adds those elements to the text content set. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-03-17]. ←
16:21:53 <oedipus> RESOLVED: introduce the INS and DEL elements as "legacy" in their own module and only in the text content set
RESOLVED: introduce the INS and DEL elements as "legacy" in their own module and only in the text content set ←
16:22:30 <Steven> ack me
Steven Pemberton: ack me ←
16:22:38 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 30
Steven Pemberton: zakim, remind me in 30 ←
16:22:38 <Zakim> ok, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven ←
16:23:24 <oedipus> TOPIC: Action 14 - features document
16:23:39 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0044.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0044.html ←
16:24:16 <oedipus> SM: identify granular features and feature collections that can map to the @implement for Script Module
Shane McCarron: identify granular features and feature collections that can map to the @implement for Script Module ←
16:24:18 <oedipus> RM: yes
Roland Merrick: yes ←
16:25:14 <oedipus> SM: architecture for document: use RDFa and the annotation conventions from the vocab document to identify these collections and their granular parts; parts and selections map essentially to modules in M12n 2.0
Shane McCarron: architecture for document: use RDFa and the annotation conventions from the vocab document to identify these collections and their granular parts; parts and selections map essentially to modules in M12n 2.0 ←
16:25:30 <oedipus> SM: question: do we intend to support @implements in M12n 1.0
Shane McCarron: question: do we intend to support @implements in M12n 1.0 ←
16:25:35 <oedipus> SM: my answer is yes
Shane McCarron: my answer is yes ←
16:25:39 <oedipus> SP: sooner the better
Steven Pemberton: sooner the better ←
16:26:09 <oedipus> SM: features should map to M12n 2.0 - M12n 1 and M12n 2 don't overlap - do we need 2 features modules, one for each?
Shane McCarron: features should map to M12n 2.0 - M12n 1 and M12n 2 don't overlap - do we need 2 features modules, one for each? ←
16:26:31 <oedipus> SM: don't think can have 2 versions of features, because need to move language forward
Shane McCarron: don't think can have 2 versions of features, because need to move language forward ←
16:26:32 <Zakim> Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time ←
16:26:59 <oedipus> SM: if don't have 2 versions of features document, needs a well known URI (as with the vocab document) -- will need version names
Shane McCarron: if don't have 2 versions of features document, needs a well known URI (as with the vocab document) -- will need version names ←
16:27:50 <oedipus> SM: summary: features doc needs to represent current state-of-the art and a conversion/adaptation guidance; need to organize a heirarchy in RDF
Shane McCarron: summary: features doc needs to represent current state-of-the art and a conversion/adaptation guidance; need to organize a heirarchy in RDF ←
16:28:08 <oedipus> SP: that's a lot to think about
Steven Pemberton: that's a lot to think about ←
16:28:16 <oedipus> SM: that's why the action is still outstanding!
Shane McCarron: that's why the action is still outstanding! ←
16:28:52 <oedipus> SM: suggestion: can get movement on this by picking core features we care about having in attributes today and call it the features document and say will be added to
Shane McCarron: suggestion: can get movement on this by picking core features we care about having in attributes today and call it the features document and say will be added to ←
16:29:03 <oedipus> SP: couldn't it just be a CURIE?
Steven Pemberton: couldn't it just be a CURIE? ←
16:29:21 <oedipus> RM: if feature is a URI, should define URI for each feature
Roland Merrick: if feature is a URI, should define URI for each feature ←
16:29:39 <oedipus> SP: implements=xh1:foo
Steven Pemberton: implements=xh1:foo ←
16:29:56 <oedipus> SP: implements=xh2:xforms
Steven Pemberton: implements=xh2:xforms ←
16:30:03 <oedipus> SM: URI or space CURIE
Shane McCarron: URI or safe CURIE ←
16:30:15 <ShaneM> s/space/safe/
16:30:17 <oedipus> SM: reserved words in single repository
Shane McCarron: reserved words in single repository ←
16:30:43 <oedipus> SM: implement XForms 1.1 would then have meaning -- reserved word mapping available
Shane McCarron: implement XForms 1.1 would then have meaning -- reserved word mapping available ←
16:31:17 <oedipus> SP: if do that, CURIEs allows one to say if prefixed use certain namespace
Steven Pemberton: if do that, CURIEs allows one to say if prefixed use certain namespace ←
16:31:32 <oedipus> SM: "reserved words" can mean whatever we want - take out of context of CURIEs
Shane McCarron: "reserved words" can mean whatever we want - take out of context of CURIEs ←
16:31:48 <oedipus> SM: pre-fix-less CURIEs are problematic; can only have 1 default for each
Shane McCarron: pre-fix-less CURIEs are problematic; can only have 1 default for each ←
16:32:11 <oedipus> SP: not going into vocab document, but if can't have key words as appropriate value of a URI
Steven Pemberton: not going into vocab document, but if can't have key words as appropriate value of a URI ←
16:32:19 <oedipus> SM: #$@!%
Shane McCarron: #$@!% ←
16:32:40 <oedipus> SP: accept what RM suggested - not going to write very often; will be copied-and-pasted
Steven Pemberton: accept what RM suggested - not going to write very often; will be copied-and-pasted ←
16:32:56 <oedipus> SM: done all the time by developers -- bringing in scripts
Shane McCarron: done all the time by developers -- bringing in scripts ←
16:33:01 <oedipus> RM: cut-and-paste
Roland Merrick: cut-and-paste ←
16:33:17 <oedipus> SP: like namespace or doctype - part of standard template
Steven Pemberton: like namespace or doctype - part of standard template ←
16:33:39 <oedipus> 30 MINUTE WARNING
30 MINUTE WARNING ←
16:33:55 <oedipus> SM: probably just use URIs for most part in examples to keep simple and clear
Shane McCarron: probably just use URIs for most part in examples to keep simple and clear ←
16:33:57 <oedipus> +
+ ←
16:34:25 <oedipus> SM: features we need implements values for today: Access, Role, XHTML 1.2, client-side RDFa
Shane McCarron: features we need implements values for today: Access, Role, XHTML 1.2, client-side RDFa ←
16:34:56 <oedipus> SM: will put up skeletal document for review and hope someone is inspired to help me
Shane McCarron: will put up skeletal document for review and hope someone is inspired to help me ←
16:35:02 <ShaneM> Note - NO RESERVED WORDS FOR @implements
Shane McCarron: Note - NO RESERVED WORDS FOR @implements ←
16:35:16 <Steven> ack me
Steven Pemberton: ack me ←
16:35:23 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 30
Steven Pemberton: zakim, remind me in 30 ←
16:35:23 <Zakim> ok, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven ←
16:35:36 <oedipus> TOPIC: Modules, Modularization, and the XHTML Family
16:35:43 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Feb/0019.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Feb/0019.html ←
16:36:38 <oedipus> MG: about M12n 1.0, right?
Markus Gylling: about M12n 1.0, right? ←
16:36:40 <oedipus> SM: true
Shane McCarron: true ←
16:36:54 <oedipus> MG: those are intertwined heavily - hard to seperate them
Markus Gylling: those are intertwined heavily - hard to seperate them ←
16:37:01 <oedipus> GJR: agrees with Markus
Gregory Rosmaita: agrees with Markus ←
16:37:21 <oedipus> SM: tangental issue on how to do fragment announcements - would like to address seperately
Shane McCarron: tangental issue on how to do fragment announcements - would like to address seperately ←
16:37:48 <oedipus> SP: difference between language sub-setting and UA sub-setting
Steven Pemberton: difference between language sub-setting and UA sub-setting ←
16:37:50 <oedipus> SM: yes
Shane McCarron: yes ←
16:38:03 <oedipus> SP: should be allowable to sub-set languages, but not user agents
Steven Pemberton: should be allowable to sub-set languages, but not user agents ←
16:38:05 <oedipus> SM: yes
Shane McCarron: yes ←
16:38:30 <oedipus> SM: UAs need to support everything through modules
Shane McCarron: UAs need to support everything through modules ←
16:39:15 <oedipus> SP: one reason introduced M12n was to try and pull the world into a decent standard set of languages; needed differences to be consistent and predictable
Steven Pemberton: one reason introduced M12n was to try and pull the world into a decent standard set of languages; needed differences to be consistent and predictable ←
16:39:33 <oedipus> SP: m12n allows sub-setting and extension in defineable and controllable ways
Steven Pemberton: m12n allows sub-setting and extension in defineable and controllable ways ←
16:39:57 <oedipus> SP: can sub-set language as much as you want provided UA accepts that sub-set as well as super-set
Steven Pemberton: can sub-set language as much as you want provided UA accepts that sub-set as well as super-set ←
16:40:16 <oedipus> MG: provider of module can mark / designate module by pointing to it
Markus Gylling: provider of module can mark / designate module by pointing to it ←
16:40:19 <oedipus> SM: optional
Shane McCarron: optional ←
16:40:21 <oedipus> MG: yes
Markus Gylling: yes ←
16:40:41 <oedipus> SP: UA still accepts full language, but some versions of language are checkable in reduced version
Steven Pemberton: UA still accepts full language, but some versions of language are checkable in reduced version ←
16:40:56 <oedipus> SP: what is the "win"? if all UAs have to accept whole module, who wins?
Steven Pemberton: what is the "win"? if all UAs have to accept whole module, who wins? ←
16:41:20 <oedipus> SM: language designers - XHTML family markup languages with restriction on content authors can create
Shane McCarron: language designers - XHTML family markup languages with restriction on content authors can create ←
16:41:29 <oedipus> SP: think i can live with that
Steven Pemberton: think i can live with that ←
16:41:53 <oedipus> SP: didn't distinguish between content sub-setting and UA sub-setting
Steven Pemberton: didn't distinguish between content sub-setting and UA sub-setting ←
16:42:00 <oedipus> SM: exactly; mea culpa
Shane McCarron: exactly; mea culpa ←
16:42:44 <oedipus> SP: while on the topic, reraise RM's complaint about not being able to declare taht content is XHTML Print and XHTML Base compliant
Steven Pemberton: while on the topic, reraise RM's complaint about not being able to declare taht content is XHTML Print and XHTML Base compliant ←
16:42:56 <oedipus> RM: would like to address at some point
Roland Merrick: would like to address at some point ←
16:43:15 <oedipus> RM: if written content specifically so will validate by XHTML 1.1 processor and XHTML Basic processor
Roland Merrick: if written content specifically so will validate by XHTML 1.1 processor and XHTML Basic processor ←
16:43:28 <oedipus> RM: when put in declaration i want, mobile processor won't accept
Roland Merrick: when put in declaration i want, mobile processor won't accept ←
16:43:44 <oedipus> RM: current limitation is have to declare 1
Roland Merrick: current limitation is have to declare 1 ←
16:43:50 <oedipus> SM: real problem, agree
Shane McCarron: real problem, agree ←
16:44:19 <oedipus> RM: recognize this happens and people want to do these things - out of one, many; how to write content for the entire web?
Roland Merrick: recognize this happens and people want to do these things - out of one, many; how to write content for the entire web? ←
16:44:59 <oedipus> SM: doctype -- TBL doesn't like use of doctype anymore; but if using doctype, can't use more than one
Shane McCarron: doctype -- TBL doesn't like use of doctype anymore; but if using doctype, can't use more than one ←
16:45:34 <oedipus> SM: in theory, could define a set of rules for doctype public identifiers that would mean "this document is blah, blah, and blah" but not sure if that scales
Shane McCarron: in theory, could define a set of rules for doctype public identifiers that would mean "this document is blah, blah, and blah" but not sure if that scales ←
16:45:51 <oedipus> SM: there is the @version attribute - currently only takes single value
Shane McCarron: there is the @version attribute - currently only takes single value ←
16:46:00 <oedipus> MG: what about link rel="profile"
Markus Gylling: what about link rel="profile" ←
16:46:12 <oedipus> GJR: also thinking along @profile lines
Gregory Rosmaita: also thinking along @profile lines ←
16:46:29 <oedipus> SP: rel="version"
Steven Pemberton: rel="version" ←
16:46:32 <oedipus> SM: interesting idea
Shane McCarron: interesting idea ←
16:46:42 <oedipus> MG: what meaning does @profile have then?
Markus Gylling: what meaning does @profile have then? ←
16:47:02 <oedipus> SP: rel="profile" used for profiles that define value of attributes rather than implying content model
Steven Pemberton: rel="profile" used for profiles that define value of attributes rather than implying content model ←
16:47:16 <oedipus> SM: how UA should interpret values of rel, href and class in HTML
Shane McCarron: how UA should interpret values of rel, href and class in HTML ←
16:47:38 <oedipus> SM: could just add another reserved value for this case
Shane McCarron: could just add another reserved value for this case ←
16:48:23 <oedipus> MG: how planning/hoping to do in DAISY with grammars on top of XHTML2 with link rel="version" -- only thinking of having one, but possibility of multiples is tantalizing
Markus Gylling: how planning/hoping to do in DAISY with grammars on top of XHTML2 with link rel="version" -- only thinking of having one, but possibility of multiples is tantalizing ←
16:48:41 <oedipus> SM: XML Schema's location attribute to declare multiple schemas
Shane McCarron: XML Schema's location attribute to declare multiple schemas ←
16:48:48 <oedipus> RM: is a hint -- we need to give locatoin
Roland Merrick: is a hint -- we need to give locatoin ←
16:49:03 <oedipus> SM: @location can point to 5 different schemas
Shane McCarron: @location can point to 5 different schemas ←
16:49:17 <oedipus> MG: solution should be general enough for use in processors
Markus Gylling: solution should be general enough for use in processors ←
16:49:29 <oedipus> SM: don't want to rely on a hint
Shane McCarron: don't want to rely on a hint ←
16:49:39 <oedipus> SM: like idea of using LINK
Shane McCarron: like idea of using LINK ←
16:49:39 <Steven> +1
Steven Pemberton: +1 ←
16:49:43 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 ←
16:50:00 <oedipus> SM: don't think any existing rel values map to case; need new one
Shane McCarron: don't think any existing rel values map to case; need new one ←
16:50:18 <oedipus> MG: "version"
Markus Gylling: "version" ←
16:50:49 <oedipus> MG: href cannonical URI - processor can auto-discover resources associated with language
Markus Gylling: href cannonical URI - processor can auto-discover resources associated with language ←
16:51:16 <oedipus> MG: capable of using RDFa vocabulary - what is at end of namespace URI for DAISY use would be grammar
Markus Gylling: capable of using RDFa vocabulary - what is at end of namespace URI for DAISY use would be grammar ←
16:51:32 <ShaneM> rel="version" href="canonical URI for version" - need to create good examples for these.
Shane McCarron: rel="version" href="canonical URI for version" - need to create good examples for these. ←
16:51:50 <oedipus> SM: not sure what canonical URIs for languages
Shane McCarron: not sure what canonical URIs for languages ←
16:51:54 <oedipus> SP: for us to decide
Steven Pemberton: for us to decide ←
16:51:59 <Steven> the TR URI
Steven Pemberton: the TR URI ←
16:52:24 <oedipus> SM: should be a fixed string a language processor can rely on
Shane McCarron: should be a fixed string a language processor can rely on ←
16:52:30 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 9 that it is 6 o'clock
Steven Pemberton: zakim, remind me in 9 that it is 6 o'clock ←
16:52:30 <Zakim> ok, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven ←
16:52:39 <Zakim> Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time ←
16:52:51 <oedipus> SM: what makes for a good identifier -- i.e. one not date-stamped
Shane McCarron: what makes for a good identifier -- i.e. one not date-stamped ←
16:53:00 <oedipus> TEN MINUTE WARNING
TEN MINUTE WARNING ←
16:53:06 <oedipus> SP: been a really good meeting
Steven Pemberton: been a really good meeting ←
16:53:14 <oedipus> RM: got through several items
Roland Merrick: got through several items ←
16:53:25 <oedipus> SM: like this format better than the 1 hour meetings -- get more done
Shane McCarron: like this format better than the 1 hour meetings -- get more done ←
16:53:34 <oedipus> TOPIC: Next Meetings
16:53:48 <oedipus> RM: will have regular call tomorrow (11 March 2009)
Roland Merrick: will have regular call tomorrow (11 March 2009) ←
16:54:00 <oedipus> RM: schedule another virtual F2F before end of march
Roland Merrick: schedule another virtual F2F before end of march ←
16:54:05 <oedipus> SP: dates?
Steven Pemberton: dates? ←
16:54:52 <oedipus> ADJOURNED
ADJOURNED ←
16:55:18 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
16:55:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
16:55:29 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
16:55:31 <Zakim> -Markus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Markus ←
16:55:31 <Zakim> -Roland
Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←
16:55:33 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
16:55:40 <oedipus> RM: XHTML2 call on 11 March 2009 -- will discuss scheduling of next virtual face2face
Roland Merrick: XHTML2 call on 11 March 2009 -- will discuss scheduling of next virtual face2face ←
16:55:44 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←
16:55:45 <Zakim> Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has ended ←
16:55:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Markus, ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Markus, ShaneM ←
16:55:47 <oedipus> zakim, please part
zakim, please part ←
16:55:54 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
16:55:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
16:56:36 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
16:56:41 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
16:56:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
16:57:31 <oedipus> regrets: Tina, Mark, Alessio
Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Markus Gylling Mark Birbeck . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.
16:57:32 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
16:57:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
16:57:36 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
rrsagent, stop ←
Formatted by CommonScribe