13:08:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-irc ←
13:08:13 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
Steven Pemberton: zakim, this will be xhtml ←
13:08:13 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 37 minutes ←
13:08:24 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←
13:08:41 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
13:08:44 <Steven> Chair: Steven
13:08:48 <Steven> Regrets: Roland
13:40:42 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0008
13:40:46 <Steven> Hey Roland!
(No events recorded for 32 minutes)
Steven Pemberton: Hey Roland! ←
13:40:55 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0008
Steven Pemberton: Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0008 ←
13:41:39 <Steven> wouldn't mind, or would mind, oedipus?
Steven Pemberton: wouldn't mind, or would mind, oedipus? ←
13:41:51 <oedipus> wouldn't
Gregory Rosmaita: wouldn't ←
13:41:58 <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)
13:42:04 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
13:42:31 <Steven> You're amazing Gregory. When I have a migraine, I mind everything!
Steven Pemberton: You're amazing Gregory. When I have a migraine, I mind everything! ←
13:42:42 <Steven> Exvcept lying under a duvet in a darkened room
Steven Pemberton: Exvcept lying under a duvet in a darkened room ←
13:42:54 <oedipus> survival tactic -- residue of nerve dammage
survival tactic -- residue of nerve dammage ←
13:43:02 <Steven> ha
Steven Pemberton: ha ←
13:43:19 <Steven> Remind me where you were Roland
Steven Pemberton: Remind me where you were Roland ←
13:43:52 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started ←
13:44:00 <Zakim> +Roland_Merrick
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland_Merrick ←
13:44:28 <Roland> Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland
Roland Merrick: Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland ←
13:44:28 <Zakim> +Roland; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland; got it ←
13:44:44 <Zakim> + +04670855aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +04670855aaaa ←
13:44:59 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←
13:45:12 <oedipus> zakim, aaaa is Tina
zakim, aaaa is Tina ←
13:45:12 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina; got it ←
13:45:40 <oedipus> zakim, who is making noise?
zakim, who is making noise? ←
13:45:51 <Zakim> oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Roland (5%), Tina (20%), Gregory_Rosmaita (24%)
Zakim IRC Bot: oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Roland (5%), Tina (20%), Gregory_Rosmaita (24%) ←
13:46:00 <Zakim> +McCarron
Zakim IRC Bot: +McCarron ←
13:46:25 <oedipus> regrets: Alessio
13:46:27 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
13:46:28 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
13:46:30 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
13:46:32 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:46:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:46:58 <oedipus> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
rrsagent, make logs world-visible ←
13:47:11 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is here? ←
13:47:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, McCarron, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, McCarron, Steven ←
13:47:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see oedipus, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Tina, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see oedipus, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Tina, Steven ←
13:47:30 <oedipus> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/03-xhtml-minutes.html
13:47:33 <oedipus> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
rrsagent, make logs world-visible ←
13:47:37 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
13:47:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
13:48:02 <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Shaping and Announcements
13:48:23 <oedipus> SP: search for MarkB - sent 2 posts to emailing list in last 24 hours
Steven Pemberton: search for MarkB - sent 2 posts to emailing list in last 24 hours ←
13:48:28 <oedipus> SP: shall i chair
Steven Pemberton: shall i chair ←
13:48:31 <oedipus> RM: please do
Roland Merrick: please do ←
13:48:58 <oedipus> SP: TPAC registration: 6 weeks to go
Steven Pemberton: TPAC registration: 6 weeks to go ←
13:49:13 <oedipus> SP: still room for presentations on TP day for those who wish to propose a presentation
Steven Pemberton: still room for presentations on TP day for those who wish to propose a presentation ←
13:49:24 <oedipus> SP: RDFa is now a PR - congratulations and thanks to shane
Steven Pemberton: RDFa is now a PR - congratulations and thanks to shane ←
13:49:45 <Zakim> -McCarron
Zakim IRC Bot: -McCarron ←
13:50:27 <oedipus> SP: Tina, from M12n acknowledgements as "Greytower Technologies"
Steven Pemberton: Tina, from M12n acknowledgements as "Greytower Technologies" ←
13:50:30 <oedipus> TH: correct
Tina Holmboe: correct ←
13:50:37 <oedipus> SP: GJR as "invited expert"
Steven Pemberton: GJR as "invited expert" ←
13:50:40 <oedipus> GJR: correct
Gregory Rosmaita: correct ←
13:51:25 <oedipus> SP: timeline - 1) Schema Review - would like at least shane to be around
Steven Pemberton: timeline - 1) Schema Review - would like at least shane to be around ←
13:51:42 <oedipus> SP: markB sent review to list - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0006.html
Steven Pemberton: markB sent review to list - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0006.html ←
13:51:51 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0007.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0007.html ←
13:52:14 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
13:52:30 <oedipus> TOPIC: Schema Review
13:52:41 <oedipus> SP: MarkB seems to only have positive review
Steven Pemberton: MarkB seems to only have positive review ←
13:52:56 <oedipus> RM: no feedback, just acknowledgement that read and reviewed
Roland Merrick: no feedback, just acknowledgement that read and reviewed ←
13:53:14 <oedipus> TH: want to re-read next iteration
Tina Holmboe: want to re-read next iteration ←
13:53:20 <oedipus> SP: deadline for comments is this friday
Steven Pemberton: deadline for comments is this friday ←
13:53:27 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0044.html
Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0044.html ←
13:53:43 <oedipus> SP: asked to discuss specific items mark thinks we need not worry about
Steven Pemberton: asked to discuss specific items mark thinks we need not worry about ←
13:53:59 <oedipus> SP: decided not to get too worked up about assertions
Steven Pemberton: decided not to get too worked up about assertions ←
13:54:12 <oedipus> SP: think we can just send confirmation and thanks for asking us to review
Steven Pemberton: think we can just send confirmation and thanks for asking us to review ←
13:54:16 <oedipus> RM: sounds good
Roland Merrick: sounds good ←
13:54:18 <oedipus> TH: plus 1
Tina Holmboe: plus 1 ←
13:54:21 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 ←
13:54:49 <oedipus> RESOLVED: send Schema confirmation that XHTML2 WG reviewed, thanks for opportunity, no comments
RESOLVED: send Schema confirmation that XHTML2 WG reviewed, thanks for opportunity, no comments ←
13:54:57 <oedipus> TOPIC: M12n Status
13:55:08 <oedipus> SP: shane -- only thing left acknowledgements?
Steven Pemberton: shane -- only thing left acknowledgements? ←
13:55:19 <oedipus> SM: not ready to publish yet
Shane McCarron: not ready to publish yet ←
13:55:21 <oedipus> SP: when?
Steven Pemberton: when? ←
13:55:32 <oedipus> SM: thought yesterday, so probably today
Shane McCarron: thought yesterday, so probably today ←
13:55:46 <oedipus> SP: ping me when ready and will send off necessary email
Steven Pemberton: ping me when ready and will send off necessary email ←
13:56:11 <oedipus> SP: ready to get stamp of approval after making sure draft is in final shape
Steven Pemberton: ready to get stamp of approval after making sure draft is in final shape ←
13:56:21 <oedipus> TOPIC: XML Base Comments
13:56:48 <oedipus> SP: comments should have gone to both XForms and XHTML - reply only to XForms
Steven Pemberton: comments should have gone to both XForms and XHTML - reply only to XForms ←
13:56:59 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0005
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0005 ←
13:57:19 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0015
Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0015 ←
13:57:22 <oedipus> SP: comment 1: clarification of URI - XML Base relationship to CURIEs
Steven Pemberton: comment 1: clarification of URI - XML Base relationship to CURIEs ←
13:58:01 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0018.html
Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0018.html ←
13:58:01 <oedipus> SP: reply suggests that it is up to XML Vocabulary to decide what is URL - good answer, but need to say so in spec; emailed asking if could just state declaratively -- seem to have said "yes"
Steven Pemberton: reply suggests that it is up to XML Vocabulary to decide what is URL - good answer, but need to say so in spec; emailed asking if could just state declaratively -- seem to have said "yes" ←
13:58:18 <oedipus> SP: added comment which answers our comment perfectly well; accept?
Steven Pemberton: added comment which answers our comment perfectly well; accept? ←
13:58:33 <oedipus> SM: what does this mean for RDFa?
Shane McCarron: what does this mean for RDFa? ←
13:58:42 <oedipus> SP: if we say it applies, then it applies
Steven Pemberton: if we say it applies, then it applies ←
13:58:47 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to that
Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 to that ←
13:59:02 <oedipus> SP: a CURIE should end up being relative URI once pre-processing done
Steven Pemberton: a CURIE should end up being relative URI once pre-processing done ←
13:59:11 <oedipus> SM: in grammars that accept XML Base
Shane McCarron: in grammars that accept XML Base ←
13:59:14 <oedipus> SP: yes, of course
Steven Pemberton: yes, of course ←
13:59:23 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is noisy? ←
13:59:35 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Tina (57%)
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Tina (57%) ←
13:59:47 <Steven> zakim, mute tina
Steven Pemberton: zakim, mute tina ←
13:59:47 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Tina should now be muted ←
13:59:59 <oedipus> SP: good answer - just say thank you for doing this
Steven Pemberton: good answer - just say thank you for doing this ←
14:00:23 <oedipus> SP: just received reply - why not accept w3c position on what constitutes a URI - conflict between syntax space and value space
Steven Pemberton: just received reply - why not accept w3c position on what constitutes a URI - conflict between syntax space and value space ←
14:01:01 <oedipus> SP: don't mention value space, but that is answer we want -- answer is just "yes" if CURIE allowed as URI, then Base applies
Steven Pemberton: don't mention value space, but that is answer we want -- answer is just "yes" if CURIE allowed as URI, then Base applies ←
14:01:06 <oedipus> RM: plus 1
Roland Merrick: plus 1 ←
14:01:07 <Tina> +1
Tina Holmboe: +1 ←
14:01:08 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 ←
14:01:25 <oedipus> SP: comment 2: accepted (add example)
Steven Pemberton: comment 2: accepted (add example) ←
14:01:29 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0013.html
Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0013.html ←
14:01:40 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0014.html
Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0014.html ←
14:02:04 <oedipus> SP: comment 3: missing definition - comment about change list - URI reference change in RFC number, but not referenced in text
Steven Pemberton: comment 3: missing definition - comment about change list - URI reference change in RFC number, but not referenced in text ←
14:02:16 <oedipus> SP: replied that it is only in the references
Steven Pemberton: replied that it is only in the references ←
14:02:32 <oedipus> SP: not sure value of reference only in references, but on other hand is harmless
Steven Pemberton: not sure value of reference only in references, but on other hand is harmless ←
14:02:48 <oedipus> RM: can waste some time figuring it out - put it in, so what is reason it is there?
Roland Merrick: can waste some time figuring it out - put it in, so what is reason it is there? ←
14:02:55 <oedipus> SP: look at spec again
Steven Pemberton: look at spec again ←
14:03:36 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/
http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/ ←
14:03:43 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xmlbase-20080320/
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xmlbase-20080320/ ←
14:04:26 <oedipus> SM: clear reference
Shane McCarron: clear reference ←
14:04:29 <oedipus> SP: ok
Steven Pemberton: ok ←
14:04:41 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0015.html
Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0015.html ←
14:04:43 <oedipus> SP: commment 4: existing applications may break
Steven Pemberton: commment 4: existing applications may break ←
14:05:31 <oedipus> SP: may have been misunderstanding on our part - thought changing def of URI in Base (what is allowed in XML Base attribute) - was this change allowed to make to make PER rather than cycling through LC
Steven Pemberton: may have been misunderstanding on our part - thought changing def of URI in Base (what is allowed in XML Base attribute) - was this change allowed to make to make PER rather than cycling through LC ←
14:06:09 <oedipus> SP: response: never case XML Base values are URIs - change is not a normative change - change in reference
Steven Pemberton: response: never case XML Base values are URIs - change is not a normative change - change in reference ←
14:06:44 <oedipus> RM: seems ok response to me
Roland Merrick: seems ok response to me ←
14:06:56 <oedipus> SP: no other issues to reply to
Steven Pemberton: no other issues to reply to ←
14:07:20 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - reply to XML Base comment replies
ACTION: Steven - reply to XML Base comment replies ←
14:07:26 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
14:07:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
14:07:42 <oedipus> TOPIC: Tina's Primer
14:07:48 <Tina> Zakim: unmute Tina
14:07:53 <Steven> ack tina
Steven Pemberton: ack tina ←
14:07:57 <oedipus> zakim, unmute Tina
zakim, unmute Tina ←
14:07:57 <Zakim> Tina was not muted, oedipus
Zakim IRC Bot: Tina was not muted, oedipus ←
14:09:16 <oedipus> TH: background: freenodes web channel - started writing XHTML primer that is value neutral vis a vis values and principles; been writing up, took time but last draft done yesterday
Tina Holmboe: background: freenodes web channel - started writing XHTML primer that is value neutral vis a vis values and principles; been writing up, took time but last draft done yesterday ←
14:10:08 <oedipus> TH: meant to be introduction to XHTML - explain where fits into web of today without taking political stance either way - suggests way of doing content negotiation, a bit of history and bit of detail; will end up in topic of #web channel at freenodes
Tina Holmboe: meant to be introduction to XHTML - explain where fits into web of today without taking political stance either way - suggests way of doing content negotiation, a bit of history and bit of detail; will end up in topic of #web channel at freenodes ←
14:10:18 <oedipus> TH: happy with it - more comments appreciated
Tina Holmboe: happy with it - more comments appreciated ←
14:10:22 <oedipus> SP: all should review it
Steven Pemberton: all should review it ←
14:10:30 <Tina> http://www.dev-archive.net/articles/xhtml.html
Tina Holmboe: http://www.dev-archive.net/articles/xhtml.html ←
14:10:42 <oedipus> ACTION: Working Group - review Tina's XHTML primer
ACTION: Working Group - review Tina's XHTML primer ←
14:10:58 <oedipus> TH: already passed by shane
Tina Holmboe: already passed by shane ←
14:11:41 <oedipus> TH: need to revise with a bit about schema -- how to use to define if element can be child
Tina Holmboe: need to revise with a bit about schema -- how to use to define if element can be child ←
14:11:48 <oedipus> TH: all comments good or bad, direct to me
Tina Holmboe: all comments good or bad, direct to me ←
14:11:49 <Tina> tina@greytower.net
Tina Holmboe: tina@greytower.net ←
14:12:07 <oedipus> TH: hold back on publication for a week so can make changes
Tina Holmboe: hold back on publication for a week so can make changes ←
14:12:11 <oedipus> RM: where published?
Roland Merrick: where published? ←
14:12:53 <oedipus> TH: dev-archive -- took over css.nu (CSS info site) -- publishing documents there that aren't related to any specific company - neutral place to publish articles and documents
Tina Holmboe: dev-archive -- took over css.nu (CSS info site) -- publishing documents there that aren't related to any specific company - neutral place to publish articles and documents ←
14:13:16 <oedipus> TH: will stay at URL but not yet in index or atom feeds (http://www.dev-archive.net/articles/xhtml.html)
Tina Holmboe: will stay at URL but not yet in index or atom feeds (http://www.dev-archive.net/articles/xhtml.html) ←
14:13:34 <oedipus> TH: genesis: flame wars over XHTML - a lot of misunderstanding;
Tina Holmboe: genesis: flame wars over XHTML - a lot of misunderstanding; ←
14:13:36 <oedipus> SP: good work
Steven Pemberton: good work ←
14:14:00 <oedipus> SP: part of spearhead action to undo some of the dammage done to XHTML through misinformation and misunderstanding
Steven Pemberton: part of spearhead action to undo some of the dammage done to XHTML through misinformation and misunderstanding ←
14:15:33 <oedipus> SP: W3C at TPAC last year, presenter said 0.0% pages on web using XHTML -- spun the data - applications not served as appllication/xml but text/html when comes down pipe; analysis of pages on web found approximately half announcing themselves as XHTML; would be good if can make some announcement of that - 15% of top 20 web servers serve XHTML to undo some of the dammage
Steven Pemberton: W3C at TPAC last year, presenter said 0.0% pages on web using XHTML -- spun the data - applications not served as appllication/xml but text/html when comes down pipe; analysis of pages on web found approximately half announcing themselves as XHTML; would be good if can make some announcement of that - 15% of top 20 web servers serve XHTML to undo some of the dammage ←
14:15:54 <oedipus> SP: even had to disabuse TBL of XHTML as failure canard
Steven Pemberton: even had to disabuse TBL of XHTML as failure canard ←
14:16:13 <oedipus> RM: what is it and why? a lot of pages not valid - why claim XHTML - what looking for in XHTML?
Roland Merrick: what is it and why? a lot of pages not valid - why claim XHTML - what looking for in XHTML? ←
14:16:52 <oedipus> SP: part of problem is UAs don't validate, so no message it is wrong; like a compiler - same attitude to web pages - chuck at browser and if works as intended, everyone is ok
Steven Pemberton: part of problem is UAs don't validate, so no message it is wrong; like a compiler - same attitude to web pages - chuck at browser and if works as intended, everyone is ok ←
14:17:17 <oedipus> RM: BBC site comes out of often malformed server side
Roland Merrick: BBC site comes out of often malformed server side ←
14:17:50 <oedipus> TH: if send as XHTML this will happen, if send as text/html this will happen; a lot of use of XHTML as HTML which results in poor pages
Tina Holmboe: if send as XHTML this will happen, if send as text/html this will happen; a lot of use of XHTML as HTML which results in poor pages ←
14:17:56 <oedipus> SP: hard to get feedback that it is wrong
Steven Pemberton: hard to get feedback that it is wrong ←
14:18:30 <oedipus> TH: need to explain that need to know what is doing with XHTML; XHTML Transitional doctype is being treated as HTML4; all authors know is use XHTML
Tina Holmboe: need to explain that need to know what is doing with XHTML; XHTML Transitional doctype is being treated as HTML4; all authors know is use XHTML ←
14:18:53 <oedipus> SP: similar to unicode - if character set is utf-8, many think have done their work, which isn't the case
Steven Pemberton: similar to unicode - if character set is utf-8, many think have done their work, which isn't the case ←
14:19:20 <oedipus> TH: point of article - need to know what you are doing when using XHTML - here is what you need to know
Tina Holmboe: point of article - need to know what you are doing when using XHTML - here is what you need to know ←
14:19:46 <oedipus> TH: any comments, please send to me -- be as critical as necessary -- going to keep neutral
Tina Holmboe: any comments, please send to me -- be as critical as necessary -- going to keep neutral ←
14:20:16 <oedipus> SP: if not valid, it is not XHTML - no, is incorrect XHTML, but still XHTML;
Steven Pemberton: if not valid, it is not XHTML - no, is incorrect XHTML, but still XHTML; ←
14:20:38 <oedipus> TH: problem with sending XHTML as HTML, XML parser doesn't get near it -- in that context it is HTML
Tina Holmboe: problem with sending XHTML as HTML, XML parser doesn't get near it -- in that context it is HTML ←
14:21:11 <oedipus> SP: as long as intention of page is adhered to, don't serve things as XHTML for browsers, but for XML pipeline that allows XML output at end
Steven Pemberton: as long as intention of page is adhered to, don't serve things as XHTML for browsers, but for XML pipeline that allows XML output at end ←
14:21:34 <oedipus> RM: what are people's primary motivation? source serving PoV or delivery PoV
Roland Merrick: what are people's primary motivation? source serving PoV or delivery PoV ←
14:21:42 <oedipus> TH: dev-access uses XHTML
Tina Holmboe: dev-access uses XHTML ←
14:22:27 <oedipus> TH: transform XHTML using XSLT on dev-access
Tina Holmboe: transform XHTML using XSLT on dev-access ←
14:22:47 <oedipus> TH: most people don't need XHTML to start with - large educational problem involved
Tina Holmboe: most people don't need XHTML to start with - large educational problem involved ←
14:23:11 <oedipus> TH: have to get people to stop saying XHTML is evil - when used for purpose for which it was designed
Tina Holmboe: have to get people to stop saying XHTML is evil - when used for purpose for which it was designed ←
14:23:43 <oedipus> [fyi] Open Accessibility uses XHTML as normative format (so can support ARIA and RDFa)
[fyi] Open Accessibility uses XHTML as normative format (so can support ARIA and RDFa) ←
14:23:56 <oedipus> TH: a lot of people want absolutes
Tina Holmboe: a lot of people want absolutes ←
14:24:15 <oedipus> SM: XHTML mime discussion?
Shane McCarron: XHTML mime discussion? ←
14:24:18 <oedipus> SP: yes
Steven Pemberton: yes ←
14:24:32 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML Mime Type
14:25:19 <oedipus> SM: have comment from simon peiters...
Shane McCarron: have comment from simon peiters... ←
14:25:24 <oedipus> TH: link to comment?
Tina Holmboe: link to comment? ←
14:25:29 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0000.html
Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0000.html ←
14:25:51 <oedipus> SM: very long comment
Shane McCarron: very long comment ←
14:25:59 <oedipus> SP: summarize how we should deal with comment
Steven Pemberton: summarize how we should deal with comment ←
14:27:57 <oedipus> SM: what is obligation - have to respond, but not address or satisfy all comments if cannot be satisfied?
Shane McCarron: what is obligation - have to respond, but not address or satisfy all comments if cannot be satisfied? ←
14:28:07 <oedipus> SP: have to check process on notes
Steven Pemberton: have to check process on notes ←
14:28:12 <oedipus> TH: can we simply thank him?
Tina Holmboe: can we simply thank him? ←
14:28:21 <oedipus> RM: ought to take them on board
Roland Merrick: ought to take them on board ←
14:28:42 <oedipus> TH: take points aboard
Tina Holmboe: take points aboard ←
14:28:56 <oedipus> SP: wrong about RFC 2119 terms -
Steven Pemberton: wrong about RFC 2119 terms - ←
14:29:03 <oedipus> SM: talking about document, not abstract
Shane McCarron: talking about document, not abstract ←
14:29:14 <oedipus> SP: says "this abstract sucks. it shouldn't use RFC 2119 terms"
Steven Pemberton: says "this abstract sucks. it shouldn't use RFC 2119 terms" ←
14:29:32 <oedipus> SM: document not normative, so nothing should be normative is basis of comments, i believe
Shane McCarron: document not normative, so nothing should be normative is basis of comments, i believe ←
14:29:54 <ShaneM> zakim, mute Tina
Shane McCarron: zakim, mute Tina ←
14:29:54 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Tina should now be muted ←
14:30:17 <oedipus> SP: dusting off to reflect experience with UAs knowing what to do with XML; summary should say "should" because is quote from specificiations
Steven Pemberton: dusting off to reflect experience with UAs knowing what to do with XML; summary should say "should" because is quote from specificiations ←
14:30:24 <oedipus> SP: first comment i disagree with
Steven Pemberton: first comment i disagree with ←
14:30:42 <oedipus> SM: next comment: "not normative" don't reference RFC 2119 -- remove and use non-RFC 2119 terms
Shane McCarron: next comment: "not normative" don't reference RFC 2119 -- remove and use non-RFC 2119 terms ←
14:30:56 <oedipus> RM: if have no reference to RFC 2119, than "should" is just plain english
Roland Merrick: if have no reference to RFC 2119, than "should" is just plain english ←
14:31:13 <Tina> The question is: does the use of RFC 2119 references *do any harm*? Does it in any way CHANGE the content?
Tina Holmboe: The question is: does the use of RFC 2119 references *do any harm*? Does it in any way CHANGE the content? ←
14:31:14 <oedipus> SP: note's strength is that abstract contains capsule of note
Steven Pemberton: note's strength is that abstract contains capsule of note ←
14:31:43 <oedipus> SP: since SPieters took trouble to comment, should reply in good faith and positively
Steven Pemberton: since SPieters took trouble to comment, should reply in good faith and positively ←
14:32:12 <oedipus> SM: from process persepective, for me to go through point-by-point, suggest resolutions and bring back to WG for discussion
Shane McCarron: from process persepective, for me to go through point-by-point, suggest resolutions and bring back to WG for discussion ←
14:32:21 <oedipus> SM: M12n Rec is priority
Shane McCarron: M12n Rec is priority ←
14:32:51 <oedipus> ACTION: Shane - review SimonP's comments point-by-point, suggest resolutions and bring back to WG for discussion
ACTION: Shane - review SimonP's comments point-by-point, suggest resolutions and bring back to WG for discussion ←
14:33:36 <oedipus> SP: need to wait for reply to comments until move forward
Steven Pemberton: need to wait for reply to comments until move forward ←
14:33:39 <oedipus> SM: receive any others?
Shane McCarron: receive any others? ←
14:33:46 <oedipus> SP: no, but did point HTC to it
Steven Pemberton: no, but did point HTC to it ←
14:33:58 <oedipus> RM: HTC call on friday
Roland Merrick: HTC call on friday ←
14:34:21 <oedipus> TOPIC: Role Module & Comments
14:34:22 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080625/
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080625/ ←
14:34:30 <oedipus> SP: have we dealt with all the comments on Role?
Steven Pemberton: have we dealt with all the comments on Role? ←
14:34:50 <oedipus> SM: requested transition meeting on Role a while ago
Shane McCarron: requested transition meeting on Role a while ago ←
14:34:57 <oedipus> SP: will chase that down
Steven Pemberton: will chase that down ←
14:35:14 <oedipus> SM: resolved to request CR on 9 july 2008 - cited in today's agenda
Shane McCarron: resolved to request CR on 9 july 2008 - cited in today's agenda ←
14:35:20 <oedipus> SP: follow up on that
Steven Pemberton: follow up on that ←
14:35:30 <oedipus> SM: dependency on CURIEs was one lingering issue
Shane McCarron: dependency on CURIEs was one lingering issue ←
14:35:55 <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIEs
14:36:39 <oedipus> SM: did anyone follow discussion on CURIEs in RDFa task force -- jonathan rhys sent in comments on 30 August 2008 to RDFa task force (not copied to public-xhtml2)
Shane McCarron: did anyone follow discussion on CURIEs in RDFa task force -- jonathan rhys sent in comments on 30 August 2008 to RDFa task force (not copied to public-xhtml2) ←
14:37:00 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0137.html
Steven Pemberton: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0137.html ←
14:37:02 <oedipus> SP: quick ping issue?
Steven Pemberton: quick ping issue? ←
14:37:03 <oedipus> SM: yes
Shane McCarron: yes ←
14:37:22 <Steven> Thread starts here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0133.html
Steven Pemberton: Thread starts here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0133.html ←
14:38:01 <oedipus> SM: issue is JRhys believes need to define in CURIE spec the transformation fucntion to get from curie lexical space to curie value space - requirement of XML Schema Datatypes, so must be done; concrete comment against CURIEs need to resolve before request CR transition
Shane McCarron: issue is JRhys believes need to define in CURIE spec the transformation fucntion to get from curie lexical space to curie value space - requirement of XML Schema Datatypes, so must be done; concrete comment against CURIEs need to resolve before request CR transition ←
14:38:14 <oedipus> RM: only for base types, not derived types
Roland Merrick: only for base types, not derived types ←
14:38:22 <oedipus> SP: quotes from post
Steven Pemberton: quotes from post ←
14:38:33 <oedipus> SM: required telecon to get this resolved in RDFa TF
Shane McCarron: required telecon to get this resolved in RDFa TF ←
14:38:43 <oedipus> RM: built-in types?
Roland Merrick: built-in types? ←
14:38:52 <oedipus> SM: comments about CURIE draft not RDFa
Shane McCarron: comments about CURIE draft not RDFa ←
14:39:31 <oedipus> SP: lexical space of CURIE is well defined syntaxically
Steven Pemberton: lexical space of CURIE is well defined syntaxically ←
14:40:04 <oedipus> SP: transformed to URI by either sticking the prefix and postfix bits together (concatinating to form URI) - result must be in any URI
Steven Pemberton: transformed to URI by either sticking the prefix and postfix bits together (concatinating to form URI) - result must be in any URI ←
14:40:06 <oedipus> SM: don't say that
Shane McCarron: don't say that ←
14:40:10 <oedipus> SP: we don't?
Steven Pemberton: we don't? ←
14:40:20 <oedipus> SM: one place say has to be URI in another an IRI
Shane McCarron: one place say has to be URI in another an IRI ←
14:40:25 <oedipus> SM: also say value space is IRI
Shane McCarron: also say value space is IRI ←
14:40:39 <oedipus> SM: isn't XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 IRI is same as URI
Shane McCarron: isn't XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 IRI is same as URI ←
14:40:53 <oedipus> SP: thought IRI was syntaxical/lexical space and URI is value space
Steven Pemberton: thought IRI was syntaxical/lexical space and URI is value space ←
14:41:00 <oedipus> SP: IRI cannot go over wire
Steven Pemberton: IRI cannot go over wire ←
14:41:07 <oedipus> RM: described in URI/IRI spec
Roland Merrick: described in URI/IRI spec ←
14:41:26 <oedipus> SP: CURIEs transformed to IRI - when IRI gets sent over wire has to be transformed into URI
Steven Pemberton: CURIEs transformed to IRI - when IRI gets sent over wire has to be transformed into URI ←
14:41:30 <oedipus> SM: out of our hands
Shane McCarron: out of our hands ←
14:41:44 <oedipus> SP: lexical comes from second transformation
Steven Pemberton: lexical comes from second transformation ←
14:42:08 <oedipus> RM: transformation occurs in circumstances other than over-the-wire -- other cases where should be transformed from IRI to URI
Roland Merrick: transformation occurs in circumstances other than over-the-wire -- other cases where should be transformed from IRI to URI ←
14:42:22 <oedipus> SP: IRI defines relationship
Steven Pemberton: IRI defines relationship ←
14:42:33 <oedipus> SP: what does RDF expect? URIs or IRIs?
Steven Pemberton: what does RDF expect? URIs or IRIs? ←
14:42:36 <oedipus> SM: expects URIs
Shane McCarron: expects URIs ←
14:42:44 <oedipus> SM: doesn't anticipate existence of IRIs
Shane McCarron: doesn't anticipate existence of IRIs ←
14:43:42 <oedipus> SM: they are tokens, so almost doesn't matter; IRIs are lexical space in real world, and there is not a 1 to 1 mapping from IRI to URI - not isomorphic - many to one mapping -- more than one IRI representation
Shane McCarron: they are tokens, so almost doesn't matter; IRIs are lexical space in real world, and there is not a 1 to 1 mapping from IRI to URI - not isomorphic - many to one mapping -- more than one IRI representation ←
14:43:51 <oedipus> SM: URIs are subset of IRIs
Shane McCarron: URIs are subset of IRIs ←
14:44:12 <oedipus> SM: subtle angles-on-head-of-pin stuff -- wont' get this from discussion
Shane McCarron: subtle angles-on-head-of-pin stuff -- wont' get this from discussion ←
14:45:02 <oedipus> SM: if way to make clearer to get from lexical to value space and requirement of XML Schema than should take comment on
Shane McCarron: if way to make clearer to get from lexical to value space and requirement of XML Schema than should take comment on ←
14:45:31 <oedipus> SP: think i understand comment -- assumed good enough to say concatonate together and form an IRI, but surprised CURIE spec doesn't say that
Steven Pemberton: think i understand comment -- assumed good enough to say concatonate together and form an IRI, but surprised CURIE spec doesn't say that ←
14:45:34 <oedipus> SM: it does
Shane McCarron: it does ←
14:45:38 <oedipus> SP: so what is problem?
Steven Pemberton: so what is problem? ←
14:46:11 <oedipus> SM: not expressed in terms of XML Datatypes - no machine way to express concatonation
Shane McCarron: not expressed in terms of XML Datatypes - no machine way to express concatonation ←
14:46:31 <oedipus> SM: may be why in TAG some have argued for new datatype schema for this
Shane McCarron: may be why in TAG some have argued for new datatype schema for this ←
14:46:41 <oedipus> SM: is a tuple - doesn't concatonate
Shane McCarron: is a tuple - doesn't concatonate ←
14:46:55 <oedipus> SP: minute over -- need to go to another call
Steven Pemberton: minute over -- need to go to another call ←
14:47:10 <oedipus> RM: promised TAG by end of september
Roland Merrick: promised TAG by end of september ←
14:47:23 <oedipus> SM: won't rush but please cogitate upon this
Shane McCarron: won't rush but please cogitate upon this ←
14:47:26 <oedipus> ADJOURNED
ADJOURNED ←
14:47:30 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
14:47:31 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
14:47:35 <Zakim> -Tina
Zakim IRC Bot: -Tina ←
14:47:36 <Zakim> -Roland
Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←
14:47:38 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←
14:47:38 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended ←
14:47:39 <oedipus> zakim, please part
zakim, please part ←
14:47:39 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, +04670855aaaa, Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina, McCarron, Steven, ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, +04670855aaaa, Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina, McCarron, Steven, ShaneM ←
14:48:07 <oedipus> present- +04670855aaaa
present- +04670855aaaa ←
14:48:12 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
14:48:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
14:49:11 <oedipus> present- McCarron
present- McCarron ←
14:49:13 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
14:49:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←
15:03:12 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
(No events recorded for 13 minutes)
rrsagent, please part ←
15:03:12 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-actions.rdf : ←
15:03:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven - reply to XML Base comment replies [1]
ACTION: Steven - reply to XML Base comment replies [1] ←
15:03:12 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-irc#T14-07-20
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-irc#T14-07-20 ←
15:03:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Working Group - review Tina's XHTML primer [2]
ACTION: Working Group - review Tina's XHTML primer [2] ←
15:03:12 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-irc#T14-10-42
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-irc#T14-10-42 ←
15:03:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane - review SimonP's comments point-by-point, suggest resolutions and bring back to WG for discussion [3]
ACTION: Shane - review SimonP's comments point-by-point, suggest resolutions and bring back to WG for discussion [3] ←
15:03:12 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-irc#T14-32-51
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-irc#T14-32-51 ←
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