Meeting Record

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13:34:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-irc ←

13:35:11 <RolandMerrick> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

13:35:36 <Roland> Chair: Roland

13:36:07 <Roland> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0043.html

13:36:37 <Roland> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:36:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html Roland ←

13:36:50 <Roland> rrsagent, make log public

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make log public ←

13:37:40 <Roland> Regrets: Shane

13:39:08 <Roland> Zakim, this will be XHTML2

Roland Merrick: Zakim, this will be XHTML2 ←

13:39:08 <Zakim> ok, Roland; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Roland; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes ←

13:40:34 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started ←

13:40:41 <Zakim> +Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←

13:42:44 <Roland> Regrets: Shane, Yam

13:42:55 <Roland> rrsagent, make minutes

Roland Merrick: rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:42:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html Roland ←

13:46:54 <Steven-eee> zakim, dial steven-617

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven-eee' does not match any of the 22 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Steven-eee: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

13:46:54 <Zakim> ok, Steven-eee; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven-eee; the call is being made ←

13:46:55 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

13:49:19 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←

13:49:49 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is here? ←

13:49:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, ??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Roland, Steven, ??P3 ←

13:49:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, markbirbeck, oedipus, Steven-eee, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, Tina, myakura, Lachy, krijnh

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Steven, markbirbeck, oedipus, Steven-eee, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, Tina, myakura, Lachy, krijnh ←

13:49:57 <Steven> zakim, ??P3 is Alessio

Steven Pemberton: zakim, ??P3 is Alessio ←

13:49:57 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

13:51:09 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

13:52:48 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)

13:52:52 <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus

13:53:26 <oedipus> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0043.html

13:53:41 <oedipus> chair: Roland_Merrick

13:53:52 <oedipus> regrets: Shane_McCarron, Yam

13:54:28 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?

Mark Birbeck: zakim, code? ←

13:54:28 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck ←

13:54:58 <Zakim> +markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck ←

13:55:23 <oedipus> meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Weekly Telecon

13:55:24 <Steven> Previous minutes: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-minutes

Steven Pemberton: Previous minutes: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/09-xhtml-minutes ←

13:55:43 <oedipus> RM: progress on CSS Namespaces in CSS coordination group -- lin k to wording in post

Roland Merrick: progress on CSS Namespaces in CSS coordination group -- lin k to wording in post ←

13:55:48 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Apr/0037.html

Roland Merrick: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Apr/0037.html ←

13:56:43 <oedipus> RM: asked to put words in, have been proposed within group, explaination of what happening in CSS; had problem with wording, i said words looked ok to me, but need to get WG ok

Roland Merrick: asked to put words in, have been proposed within group, explaination of what happening in CSS; had problem with wording, i said words looked ok to me, but need to get WG ok ←

13:56:58 <oedipus> Steven: +1

Steven Pemberton: +1 ←

13:57:07 <oedipus> GJR: no problem with adding note - +1

Gregory Rosmaita: no problem with adding note - +1 ←

13:58:05 <oedipus> SP: if want standard selectors to work same, but still want to use CSS Namespaces, should  use CSS selectors -- could add or stand pat

Steven Pemberton: if want standard selectors to work same, but still want to use CSS Namespaces, should use CSS selectors -- could add or stand pat ←

13:58:25 <oedipus> RM: good usage documents outside of spec  - think we got what we asked for

Roland Merrick: good usage documents outside of spec - think we got what we asked for ←

13:58:32 <oedipus> ACTION - Steven: inform CSS CG that XHTML2 WG happy with note

ACTION - Steven: inform CSS CG that XHTML2 WG happy with note ←

13:59:39 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - inform CSS CG that XHTML2 WG happy with proposed paragraph

ACTION: Steven - inform CSS CG that XHTML2 WG happy with proposed paragraph ←

14:00:09 <oedipus> XML Base (Second Edition)

XML Base (Second Edition) ←

14:00:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xmlbase-20080320/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xmlbase-20080320/ ←

14:00:14 <oedipus> SP: not finished

Steven Pemberton: not finished ←

14:00:23 <oedipus> TOPIC: Minneapolis Face2Face

1. Minneapolis Face2Face

14:00:34 <oedipus> XML Base (Second Edition)

XML Base (Second Edition) ←

14:00:34 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xmlbase-20080320/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xmlbase-20080320/ ←

14:00:49 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - create questionnaire for June 2008 F2F

ACTION: Steven - create questionnaire for June 2008 F2F ←

14:01:14 <oedipus> SP: media-type discussion agenda item request

Steven Pemberton: media-type discussion agenda item request ←

14:01:18 <oedipus> RM: ok

Roland Merrick: ok ←

14:01:41 <oedipus> TOPIC: CURRIEs

2. CURIEs

14:01:55 <oedipus> RM: TAG review, Steven preparing reply

Roland Merrick: TAG review, Steven preparing reply ←

14:02:01 <oedipus> RM: pointer to note:

Roland Merrick: pointer to note: ←

14:02:11 <markbirbeck> s/CURRIEs/CURIEs/

14:02:30 <markbirbeck> CURRIEs is a much hotter topic. ;)

Mark Birbeck: CURRIEs is a much hotter topic. ;) ←

14:02:37 <oedipus> SP: only after general points will use Shane's extended verbiage -- that will be separate email

Steven Pemberton: only after general points will use Shane's extended verbiage -- that will be separate email ←

14:02:38 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0050.html

Roland Merrick: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0050.html ←

14:02:54 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0050.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0050.html ←

14:03:36 <oedipus> SP: 1) TAG said "what precisely is requirement" -- surprised -- Introduction explains that; QNames can't address all URIs, so that's where the need for CURIEs enters

Steven Pemberton: 1) TAG said "what precisely is requirement" -- surprised -- Introduction explains that; QNames can't address all URIs, so that's where the need for CURIEs enters ←

14:03:48 <oedipus> RM: if that is the case, can make more prominent in Introduction

Roland Merrick: if that is the case, can make more prominent in Introduction ←

14:03:57 <oedipus> SP: make intro more crisp?

Steven Pemberton: make intro more crisp? ←

14:04:08 <oedipus> RM: make clearer and more obvious in Intro

Roland Merrick: make clearer and more obvious in Intro ←

14:04:23 <oedipus> MB: been talking with Shane about rewrites of several sections to enhance clarity

Mark Birbeck: been talking with Shane about rewrites of several sections to enhance clarity ←

14:04:48 <oedipus> SP: will reply to that effect -- crispen intro to make primary req CURIEs intended to address

Steven Pemberton: will reply to that effect -- crispen intro to make primary req CURIEs intended to address ←

14:06:15 <oedipus> SP: 2nd point: overlap between CURIEs and QNames - could argue (as i am) that that is a good point, and not a bad point; good for 3 reasonss: 1) specs that use QNames where should be using CURIEs will be able to change datatype, while old content still valued and new content extended; 2) syntax used and easily understood; 3) syntax used in other places as well, so strange to invent a new syntax

Steven Pemberton: 2nd point: overlap between CURIEs and QNames - could argue (as i am) that that is a good point, and not a bad point; good for 3 reasonss: 1) specs that use QNames where should be using CURIEs will be able to change datatype, while old content still valued and new content extended; 2) syntax used and easily understood; 3) syntax used in other places as well, so strange to invent a new syntax ←

14:06:42 <oedipus> SP: not sure whether asking us to add to specification -- would not be open to that (explaining background in spec)

Steven Pemberton: not sure whether asking us to add to specification -- would not be open to that (explaining background in spec) ←

14:07:23 <oedipus> RM: could look at some discussion/observation mentioning comparissons between QNames and CURIEs so not left to reader to interpret

Roland Merrick: could look at some discussion/observation mentioning comparissons between QNames and CURIEs so not left to reader to interpret ←

14:07:44 <oedipus> MB: consequence of CURIEs will be that documents will still be valid and extensible

Mark Birbeck: consequence of CURIEs will be that documents will still be valid and extensible ←

14:09:47 <oedipus> SP: regrettable that there is a clash between QName and CURIEs -- people used to using QName in host of languages; CURIEs only in syntaxic space -- not intended to be sent over wire; that is one of their worries -- CURIEs sent over the wire for processing, as opposed to a URI

Steven Pemberton: regrettable that there is a clash between QName and CURIEs -- people used to using QName in host of languages; CURIEs only in syntaxic space -- not intended to be sent over wire; that is one of their worries -- CURIEs sent over the wire for processing, as opposed to a URI ←

14:10:33 <oedipus> MB: at top of comments state some comments based on earlier draft -- some of issues raised had been fixed by the time the draft they ostensively were reviewing

Mark Birbeck: at top of comments state some comments based on earlier draft -- some of issues raised had been fixed by the time the draft they ostensively were reviewing ←

14:12:21 <oedipus> SP: should add "please note that the example to which you refer has already been excised"; don't think we should pussyfoot about this; ok to use CURIEs where URI allowed - represent same document space -- having to expand a pain and author burden; if but safe CURIE in a HREF user going to get a 404; think XHTML WG did right thing -- forward looking

Steven Pemberton: should add "please note that the example to which you refer has already been excised"; don't think we should pussyfoot about this; ok to use CURIEs where URI allowed - represent same document space -- having to expand a pain and author burden; if but safe CURIE in a HREF user going to get a 404; think XHTML WG did right thing -- forward looking ←

14:13:07 <oedipus> MB: should be clear about CURIEs in RDFa -- syntax that removes ambiguity; haven't demanded that CURIEs be used everywhere URIs used; in RDFa don't allow CURIEs in HREF;

Mark Birbeck: TAG should be clear when referring to CURIEs and when to CURIEs in RDFa -- syntax that removes ambiguity; haven't demanded that CURIEs be used everywhere URIs used; in RDFa don't allow CURIEs in HREF; ←

14:13:21 <oedipus> SP: make that a prominent point up front

Steven Pemberton: make that a prominent point up front ←

14:14:21 <markbirbeck> s/should be clear about CURIEs in RDFa/TAG should be clear when referring to CURIEs and when to CURIEs in RDFa/

14:14:36 <oedipus> SP: TAG argue against safe CURIEs -- "consider carefully the use cases" are they really compelling? response: that's why they are in there - had compelling use casses

Steven Pemberton: TAG argue against safe CURIEs -- "consider carefully the use cases" are they really compelling? response: that's why they are in there - had compelling use cases ←

14:14:41 <oedipus> s/casses/cases

14:15:23 <oedipus> SP: example in comment wrong; all you can use is a valid URI

Steven Pemberton: example in comment wrong; all you can use is a valid URI ←

14:15:39 <oedipus> SP: don't follow last point's reasoning - people can write the wrong thing; already endemic

Steven Pemberton: don't follow last point's reasoning - people can write the wrong thing; already endemic ←

14:16:01 <markbirbeck> If xxx mapped to:

Mark Birbeck: If xxx mapped to: ←

14:16:03 <markbirbeck> http://www.example.com/feeds/thursday/

Mark Birbeck: http://www.example.com/feeds/thursday/ ←

14:16:12 <markbirbeck> there would be no problem.

Mark Birbeck: there would be no problem. ←

14:16:51 <oedipus> MB: our area of concern is not the URI;

Mark Birbeck: our area of concern is not the URI; ←

14:17:03 <oedipus> SP: only invalid if try to deference and points to xml document

Steven Pemberton: only invalid if try to deference and points to xml document ←

14:17:17 <oedipus> MB: not invalid URI, just doesn't have effect you want;

Mark Birbeck: not invalid URI, just doesn't have effect you want; ←

14:17:28 <oedipus> SP: entirely up to author to use URIs legally

Steven Pemberton: entirely up to author to use URIs legally ←

14:17:42 <oedipus> MB: about=#37b - wouldn't use id=

Mark Birbeck: about=#37b - wouldn't use id= ←

14:17:45 <markbirbeck> @about="#37b"

Mark Birbeck: @@about="#37b" ←

14:18:05 <oedipus> s/about="#37b"/@about="#37b"

14:18:30 <oedipus> RM: compelling use cases -- are they documented in RDFa Use Cases?  perhaps should be

Roland Merrick: compelling use cases -- are they documented in RDFa Use Cases? perhaps should be ←

14:19:09 <oedipus> RM: went through trouble of RDFa Use Cases might as well use it and use language from it

Roland Merrick: went through trouble of RDFa Use Cases might as well use it and use language from it ←

14:19:24 <oedipus> RM: would be in primer -- people need to make use of it

Roland Merrick: would be in primer -- people need to make use of it ←

14:20:06 <oedipus> SP: think can deduce from RDFa Use Cases that we need them; doesn't explicitly state it

Steven Pemberton: think can deduce from RDFa Use Cases that we need them; doesn't explicitly state it ←

14:20:24 <oedipus> MB: deduced from use cases documented in RDFa Use Cases -- if want to read, then they can

Mark Birbeck: deduced from use cases documented in RDFa Use Cases -- if want to read, then they can ←

14:20:29 <oedipus> SP: ok

Steven Pemberton: ok ←

14:20:53 <oedipus> RM: apart from refinements just dicussed anyone against steven sending this as response?

Roland Merrick: apart from refinements just dicussed anyone against steven sending this as response? ←

14:21:10 <oedipus> SP: more thought about response, more i convinced myself what we are doing is absolutely right

Steven Pemberton: more thought about response, more i convinced myself what we are doing is absolutely right ←

14:21:26 <oedipus> [no objections logged]

[no objections logged] ←

14:21:37 <oedipus> SP: make changes and recirculate before list before sending to TAG

Steven Pemberton: make changes and recirculate before list before sending to TAG ←

14:21:57 <oedipus> TOPIC: Mime-Type

3. Mime-Type

14:22:19 <oedipus> SP: since last we spoke, had 2 one and a half hour meetings internally in w3c about this topic

Steven Pemberton: since last we spoke, had 2 one and a half hour meetings internally in w3c about this topic ←

14:24:08 <oedipus> SP: summarize: our position seems to be getting stronger; TBL seemed to lean our way; think we are winning; some problems about shane's new mediatypes doc -- had to repeatedly point out that an in-process draft; complaint that XHTML2 should not define what HTML can do -- only drawing info from specific specs and documentation of what is being done and what one can do

Steven Pemberton: summarize: our position seems to be getting stronger; TBL seemed to lean our way; think we are winning; some problems about shane's new mediatypes doc -- had to repeatedly point out that an in-process draft; complaint that XHTML2 should not define what HTML can do -- only drawing info from specific specs and documentation of what is being done and what one can do ←

14:24:14 <oedipus> RM: was intended as a note anyway

Roland Merrick: was intended as a note anyway ←

14:24:35 <oedipus> SP: right; have to make sure that understood that this isn't a spec or new reqs, but that a documentation of what exists

Steven Pemberton: right; have to make sure that understood that this isn't a spec or new reqs, but that a documentation of what exists ←

14:26:12 <oedipus> SP: had to defend Appendix C -- at least 1 person upset that XHTML 1.0 can be sent as text/html as long as follow appendix C - section that refers to Appendix C is normative, but Appendix C is informative -- could cause confusion was the complaint -- suggested that that suggestion be submitted to list; like idea of issuing new edition of XHTML 1.0 -- good way to clarify misconceptions and firmly stake our ground

Steven Pemberton: had to defend Appendix C -- at least 1 person upset that XHTML 1.0 can be sent as text/html as long as follow appendix C - section that refers to Appendix C is normative, but Appendix C is informative -- could cause confusion was the complaint -- suggested that that suggestion be submitted to list; like idea of issuing new edition of XHTML 1.0 -- good way to clarify misconceptions and firmly stake our ground ←

14:26:42 <oedipus> SP: believe that TBL going to address this at either the AC meeting or the conference in Beijing next week

Steven Pemberton: believe that TBL going to address this at either the AC meeting or the conference in Beijing next week ←

14:27:48 <oedipus> RM: reason started this work was to help people writing XHTML and want to make sure will be rendered appropriately that don't know anything about application/xml -- just attempting to make clear what one should do if sending as text/html rather than application/xml

Roland Merrick: reason started this work was to help people writing XHTML and want to make sure will be rendered appropriately that don't know anything about application/xml -- just attempting to make clear what one should do if sending as text/html rather than application/xml ←

14:28:12 <oedipus> SP: been stated that "no one uses XHTML" because being sent by text/html

Steven Pemberton: been stated that "no one uses XHTML" because being sent by text/html ←

14:29:09 <oedipus> SP: TBL surprised to hear no one used XHTML; more than 50% of top 20 web sites using XHTML

Steven Pemberton: TBL surprised to hear no one used XHTML; more than 50% of top 20 web sites using XHTML ←

14:29:56 <oedipus> MB: whole argument that datatype being delivered determines a language is a load; SHOULD pretty strong

Mark Birbeck: whole argument that datatype being delivered determines a language is a load; SHOULD pretty strong ←

14:30:21 <oedipus> SP: if create, run through validator but deliver to IE as text/html, not author's intent

Steven Pemberton: if create, run through validator but deliver to IE as text/html, not author's intent ←

14:30:37 <oedipus> SP: assumed that UAs would switch on to new mediatype

Steven Pemberton: assumed that UAs would switch on to new mediatype ←

14:30:44 <oedipus> MB: hope we learned our lesson

Mark Birbeck: hope we learned our lesson ←

14:31:45 <oedipus> SP: why not use text/html -- upcry from XML community -- worried that that would "dirty" XML; HTML functionality turning up in XML; IE uses class solely to drive stylesheets, reason why didn't want us to use text/html; long discussions in IETF on this

Steven Pemberton: why not use text/html -- upcry from XML community -- worried that that would "dirty" XML; HTML functionality turning up in XML; IE uses class solely to drive stylesheets, reason why didn't want us to use text/html; long discussions in IETF on this ←

14:33:03 <oedipus> MB: more general point - 2 worlds of XML; 1 where can have any document interpreted by schema; but in realworld actually very little ambiguities; pure XML world has a lot of baggage as does HTML world;

Mark Birbeck: more general point - 2 worlds of XML; 1 where can have any document interpreted by schema; but in realworld actually very little ambiguities; pure XML world has a lot of baggage as does HTML world; ←

14:33:28 <oedipus> SP: difficult to spot in advance these types of issues; had no clue would be so difficult to get new media type into a browser

Steven Pemberton: difficult to spot in advance these types of issues; had no clue would be so difficult to get new media type into a browser ←

14:33:29 <markbirbeck> Tina...XML parsers are used to generate the XHTML, don't necessarily need to be used to consume it.

Mark Birbeck: Tina...XML parsers are used to generate the XHTML, don't necessarily need to be used to consume it. ←

14:34:11 <oedipus> RM: 1) want to create XML with knowledge that may be served as XHTML or HTML; 2) what do we need to do - don't need to change our specs - already say SHOULD

Roland Merrick: 1) want to create XML with knowledge that may be served as XHTML or HTML; 2) what do we need to do - don't need to change our specs - already say SHOULD ←

14:34:25 <oedipus> SP: current plan to republish media note best can do for time being

Steven Pemberton: current plan to republish media note best can do for time being ←

14:34:27 <oedipus> RM: ok

Roland Merrick: ok ←

14:34:38 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to SP

Gregory Rosmaita: plus 1 to SP ←

14:35:33 <oedipus> SP: think this is a battle that we are winning; TBL talking about how to get people to move towards well-formed content; in harmony with our underlying principles

Steven Pemberton: think this is a battle that we are winning; TBL talking about how to get people to move towards well-formed content; in harmony with our underlying principles ←

14:35:35 <Tina> markbirbeck: then it might be best to transform the XML content to HTML before sending it to the client, to keep things simple.

Mark Birbeck: then it might be best to transform the XML content to HTML before sending it to the client, to keep things simple. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

14:35:49 <oedipus> TOPIC: Status of Documents

4. Status of Documents

14:35:55 <oedipus> RM: M12n request

Roland Merrick: M12n request ←

14:36:13 <oedipus> SP: steveB travelling to beijing -- haven't had a reply yet

Steven Pemberton: steveB travelling to beijing -- haven't had a reply yet ←

14:36:21 <markbirbeck> Tina: How is adding an extra step simpler than not adding an extra step? :)

Tina Holmboe: How is adding an extra step simpler than not adding an extra step? :) [ Scribe Assist by Mark Birbeck ] ←

14:36:59 <oedipus> SP: just re-checked email - no sent transition request 1 april 2008

Steven Pemberton: just re-checked email - no sent transition request 1 april 2008 ←

14:37:08 <oedipus> RM: same with XHTML Basic?

Roland Merrick: same with XHTML Basic? ←

14:37:16 <oedipus> SP: yes

Steven Pemberton: yes ←

14:38:06 <Tina> markbirbeck: quite easy. Today developers are sending entirely broken XHTML to clients, as text/html, thinking they use "well-formed XML". If we want 'well-formed content' on the clients, we either need to state clearly that XHTML *MUST* be sent with the proper media type, or accept that the work has to be done on the server.

Mark Birbeck: quite easy. Today developers are sending entirely broken XHTML to clients, as text/html, thinking they use "well-formed XML". If we want 'well-formed content' on the clients, we either need to state clearly that XHTML *MUST* be sent with the proper media type, or accept that the work has to be done on the server. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

14:38:06 <oedipus> SP: SteveB convinced there is connection btw M12n and Basic; i and chris lilley have been trying to disabuse him of that

Steven Pemberton: SteveB convinced there is connection btw M12n and Basic; i and chris lilley have been trying to disabuse him of that ←

14:38:31 <oedipus> SP: will also ping chris lilley to see if he has heard anything more?

Steven Pemberton: will also ping chris lilley to see if he has heard anything more? ←

14:38:39 <oedipus> TOPIC: Access Module

5. Access Module

14:38:59 <oedipus> RM: sitting around for a while; said would go to last call -- issues?

Roland Merrick: sitting around for a while; said would go to last call -- issues? ←

14:39:11 <oedipus> GJR: posted 2 issues on Access

Gregory Rosmaita: posted 2 issues on Access ←

14:39:44 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0044.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0044.html ←

14:39:47 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0045.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Apr/0045.html ←

14:39:48 <markbirbeck> Tina: Really? Are you seeing lots of broken mark-up?

Tina Holmboe: Really? Are you seeing lots of broken mark-up? [ Scribe Assist by Mark Birbeck ] ←

14:40:06 <markbirbeck> (Broken XML, I mean.)

Mark Birbeck: (Broken XML, I mean.) ←

14:41:16 <Tina> markbirbeck: I see a huge amount of xhtml-doctype-sent-as-html which wouldn't pass muster as HTML 3.2, much less XHTML.

Mark Birbeck: I see a huge amount of xhtml-doctype-sent-as-html which wouldn't pass muster as HTML 3.2, much less XHTML. [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

14:43:08 <markbirbeck> Tina: But you still have to ask...so what? We don't gain anything by insisting that they send the data as application/xhtml+xml, and then have browser reject it. What's the point of that?

Tina Holmboe: But you still have to ask...so what? We don't gain anything by insisting that they send the data as application/xhtml+xml, and then have browser reject it. What's the point of that? [ Scribe Assist by Mark Birbeck ] ←

14:44:20 <Zakim> -markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←

14:44:22 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

14:44:23 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

14:44:25 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

14:44:29 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←

14:44:30 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended ←

14:44:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, Steven, Alessio, Gregory_Rosmaita, markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, Steven, Alessio, Gregory_Rosmaita, markbirbeck ←

14:44:33 <Tina> markbirbeck: do we gain any terrain for well-formed XML - on the client - by allowing XHTML to be sent with a content-type which does nothing to enforce those well-formedness rules?

Mark Birbeck: do we gain any terrain for well-formed XML - on the client - by allowing XHTML to be sent with a content-type which does nothing to enforce those well-formedness rules? [ Scribe Assist by Tina Holmboe ] ←

14:44:52 <oedipus> GJR: only must activate be boolean? issue needs vetting, will address at both PF today and UA meeting thursday; don't forsee a major hold up

Gregory Rosmaita: only must activate be boolean? issue needs vetting, will address at both PF today and UA meeting thursday; don't forsee a major hold up ←

14:45:00 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:45:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:45:16 <oedipus> zakim, please part

zakim, please part ←

14:45:16 <Steven> I see no reason why text/html shouldn't be able to require wellformedness if the content is clearly XHTML

Steven Pemberton: I see no reason why text/html shouldn't be able to require wellformedness if the content is clearly XHTML ←

14:45:24 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:45:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:45:55 <oedipus> present: Tina_via_IRC

Scribe problem: the name 'Tina_via_IRC' does not match any of the 19 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami

14:45:57 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

Scribe problem: the name 'oedipus' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Tina_via_IRC Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown oedipus: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:45:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:46:56 <oedipus> present+ Roland_Merrick, Steven_Pemberton, Alessio_Cartocci, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mark_Birbeck

Unknown oedipus: present+ Roland_Merrick, Steven_Pemberton, Alessio_Cartocci, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mark_Birbeck ←

14:46:58 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown oedipus: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:46:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:47:30 <markbirbeck> Tina: I don't really understand that point. Browsers have traditionally been pieces of software that allow people to read interesting things, buy music, book holidays, etc...why should they also be tasked with promoting and popularising XML by acting like a policeman or censor? (I.e., preventing people from interacting with any document that doesn't pass some test.) That's not the way the web has worked 'till now.

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Tina_via_IRC Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Tina_via_IRC: I don't really understand that point. Browsers have traditionally been pieces of software that allow people to read interesting things, buy music, book holidays, etc...why should they also be tasked with promoting and popularising XML by acting like a policeman or censor? (I.e., preventing people from interacting with any document that doesn't pass some test.) That's not the way the web has worked 'till now. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown markbirbeck ] ←

14:47:37 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown oedipus: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:47:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:48:14 <markbirbeck> Tina: There are other tools to aid validation, the browser is really not a good one, especially when it's being used by an end-user; what does 'this is invalid XML' mean to them?

Unknown Tina_via_IRC: There are other tools to aid validation, the browser is really not a good one, especially when it's being used by an end-user; what does 'this is invalid XML' mean to them? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown markbirbeck ] ←

14:49:17 <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes

Unknown oedipus: rrsagent, publish minutes ←

14:49:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:49:52 <Tina> markbirbeck: nothing much. But if the point is to "move towards well-formed content", then allowing a *stricter* - theoretically - language to be sent as, to put it bluntly, crap doesn't really help much.

Unknown markbirbeck: nothing much. But if the point is to "move towards well-formed content", then allowing a *stricter* - theoretically - language to be sent as, to put it bluntly, crap doesn't really help much. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Tina_via_IRC ] ←

14:50:13 <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes

Unknown oedipus: rrsagent, publish minutes ←

14:50:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:50:58 <markbirbeck> Tina: I don't see "move towards well-formed content" as a goal in and of itself, though. It seems like a bad goal if it achieves "can't view this web-site".

Unknown Tina_via_IRC: I don't see "move towards well-formed content" as a goal in and of itself, though. It seems like a bad goal if it achieves "can't view this web-site". [ Scribe Assist by Unknown markbirbeck ] ←

14:51:05 <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes

Unknown oedipus: rrsagent, publish minutes ←

14:51:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:51:20 <Tina> markbirbeck: nor do I, but it would appear that /is/ considered an important goal.

Unknown markbirbeck: nor do I, but it would appear that /is/ considered an important goal. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Tina_via_IRC ] ←

14:51:26 <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes

Unknown oedipus: rrsagent, publish minutes ←

14:51:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:51:31 <markbirbeck> Tina: By whom?

Unknown Tina_via_IRC: By whom? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown markbirbeck ] ←

14:51:51 <Tina> markbirbeck: TBL, it would appear.

Unknown markbirbeck: TBL, it would appear. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Tina_via_IRC ] ←

14:52:07 <markbirbeck> Tina: I'm not sure you are right, there. :)

Unknown Tina_via_IRC: I'm not sure you are right, there. :) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown markbirbeck ] ←

14:52:13 <Tina> markbirbeck: just quoting.

Unknown markbirbeck: just quoting. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Tina_via_IRC ] ←

14:52:18 <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes

Unknown oedipus: rrsagent, publish minutes ←

14:52:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:52:42 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part

Unknown oedipus: rrsagent, please part ←

14:52:42 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-actions.rdf : ←

14:52:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven - inform CSS CG that XHTML2 WG happy with proposed paragraph [1]

ACTION: Steven - inform CSS CG that XHTML2 WG happy with proposed paragraph [1] ←

14:52:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-irc#T13-59-39

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-irc#T13-59-39 ←

14:52:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven - create questionnaire for June 2008 F2F [2]

ACTION: Steven - create questionnaire for June 2008 F2F [2] ←

14:52:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-irc#T14-00-49

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/16-xhtml-irc#T14-00-49 ←

Formatted by CommonScribe