<kasei> Present: kasei, Sandro, AndyS, pgearon, AxelPolleres, chimezie, Carlos, bglimm
13:57:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/11-sparql-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/11-sparql-irc ←
13:57:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:57:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 77277 ←
13:57:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes ←
13:57:16 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:57:16 <trackbot> Date: 11 September 2012
13:59:20 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started ←
13:59:52 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JulSep/0177.html
14:01:03 <AxelPolleres> chair: sandro
14:02:46 <kasei> scribenick: kasei
(Scribe set to Gregory Williams)
14:03:31 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: SPARQL WG : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JulSep/0177.html
Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: SPARQL WG : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JulSep/0177.html ←
14:05:32 <kasei> topic: open comments
<kasei> subtopic: JL-4
14:06:04 <kasei> sandro: don't really understand James' comment that well.
Sandro Hawke: don't really understand James' comment that well. ←
14:06:28 <kasei> ... feel some obligation to understand what he's saying more thoroughly
... feel some obligation to understand what he's saying more thoroughly ←
14:06:38 <kasei> ... if others understand it well enough, that's ok, too
... if others understand it well enough, that's ok, too ←
14:06:59 <chimezie> Zakim unmute me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim unmute me ←
14:07:32 <kasei> AxelPolleres: his system has another way to do indirect graph identification
Axel Polleres: his system has another way to do indirect graph identification ←
14:07:38 <kasei> ... apart from that he'll implement GSP
... apart from that he'll implement GSP ←
14:07:51 <kasei> ... he can't support the indirect identification as written.
... he can't support the indirect identification as written. ←
14:08:17 <kasei> ... see no reason why we couldn't say what he wants isn't being done this time around, but refinement could be done by future WG or linked data WG
... see no reason why we couldn't say what he wants isn't being done this time around, but refinement could be done by future WG or linked data WG ←
14:08:47 <kasei> sandro: we would say that our approach is *one way* to do it that doesn't preclude future ways?
Sandro Hawke: we would say that our approach is *one way* to do it that doesn't preclude future ways? ←
14:08:50 <kasei> AxelPolleres: I think so
Axel Polleres: I think so ←
14:09:05 <kasei> sandro: as I read the spec I think I would say other ways are precluded.
Sandro Hawke: as I read the spec I think I would say other ways are precluded. ←
14:09:22 <kasei> ... if we aren't precluding other ways, then I think that is a reasonable response.
... if we aren't precluding other ways, then I think that is a reasonable response. ←
14:09:41 <kasei> chimezie: so we could say we're not preventing an extension to GSP?
Chimezie Ogbuji: so we could say we're not preventing an extension to GSP? ←
14:09:55 <kasei> ... what he's asking for requires a service description vocabulary
... what he's asking for requires a service description vocabulary ←
14:10:08 <kasei> sandro: he wants to be able to use indirect URIs of a different form (without ?graph=)
Sandro Hawke: he wants to be able to use indirect URIs of a different form (without ?graph=) ←
14:10:17 <kasei> ... and also to use service descriptions to find out what that URI pattern is.
... and also to use service descriptions to find out what that URI pattern is. ←
14:10:29 <kasei> ... I think that would be OK if we're not precluding that in the future in GSP
... I think that would be OK if we're not precluding that in the future in GSP ←
14:11:01 <kasei> ... I'm fine with us clarifying the wording to indicate that our approach is *a* way to do the identification.
... I'm fine with us clarifying the wording to indicate that our approach is *a* way to do the identification. ←
14:11:18 <sandro> sandro: I'm okay with clarifying that ?graph= is *a* way to do indirection, and leaves the door open for others.
Sandro Hawke: I'm okay with clarifying that ?graph= is *a* way to do indirection, and leaves the door open for others. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:11:29 <kasei> chimezie: in James' thread, he describes two alternatives. one where you discover the prefix and another with the purl mechanism which you replace up to a prefix.
Chimezie Ogbuji: in James' thread, he describes two alternatives. one where you discover the prefix and another with the purl mechanism which you replace up to a prefix. ←
14:11:40 <AxelPolleres> If we're not preventing future extensions to GSP that allow a way that JL could support, we should be ok to answer that we postpone other ways toaddress graphs as future work, we could point to his proposal on the future work items page.
Axel Polleres: If we're not preventing future extensions to GSP that allow a way that JL could support, we should be ok to answer that we postpone other ways toaddress graphs as future work, we could point to his proposal on the future work items page. ←
14:11:43 <kasei> ... if you leave it open to other approaches, those other ways are underspecified.
... if you leave it open to other approaches, those other ways are underspecified. ←
14:12:03 <kasei> sandro: yes. they're not specified yet. 3 round stones (James' company) could make a member submission for how to do that.
Sandro Hawke: yes. they're not specified yet. 3 round stones (James' company) could make a member submission for how to do that. ←
14:12:20 <kasei> ... that would be for a future work item. want to make sure the door is open for that.
... that would be for a future work item. want to make sure the door is open for that. ←
14:12:40 <kasei> chimezie: I think that would be the right way to go.
Chimezie Ogbuji: I think that would be the right way to go. ←
14:12:59 <sandro> PROPOSAL: We respond to JL-4 saying the door is open for what he wants in the future -- but we're not going to spec that kind of thing in this round.
PROPOSED: We respond to JL-4 saying the door is open for what he wants in the future -- but we're not going to spec that kind of thing in this round. ←
14:13:31 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
14:13:41 <AxelPolleres> +1 (we should/could propose to add a future work item to our wiki explicitly in the wiki)
Axel Polleres: +1 (we should/could propose to add a future work item to our wiki explicitly in the wiki) ←
14:13:55 <chimezie> +1
Chimezie Ogbuji: +1 ←
14:14:15 <kasei> sandro: not sure if we need to do a slight editorial wording change to make this clear in the spec.
Sandro Hawke: not sure if we need to do a slight editorial wording change to make this clear in the spec. ←
14:14:24 <kasei> ... chimezie, would you be OK to look at the wording?
... chimezie, would you be OK to look at the wording? ←
14:14:33 <AndyS> Seems more LDP than SPARQL. That is billed as working with RDF RESTfully (in some quarters)
Andy Seaborne: Seems more LDP than SPARQL. That is billed as working with RDF RESTfully (in some quarters) ←
14:14:35 <sandro> RESOLVED: We respond to JL-4 saying the door is open for what he wants in the future -- but we're not going to spec that kind of thing in this round.
RESOLVED: We respond to JL-4 saying the door is open for what he wants in the future -- but we're not going to spec that kind of thing in this round. ←
14:14:36 <kasei> chimezie: I can take a look.
Chimezie Ogbuji: I can take a look. ←
14:14:53 <sandro> action: chimezie to draft editial change to GSP to make clear the door is open
ACTION: chimezie to draft editial change to GSP to make clear the door is open ←
14:14:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-677 - Draft editial change to GSP to make clear the door is open [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2012-09-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-677 - Draft editial change to GSP to make clear the door is open [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2012-09-18]. ←
14:15:11 <sandro> subtopic: RC-2
14:15:51 <sandro> kasei: This is a long running thread on Richard wanting to stdize what error responses look like in the protocol
Gregory Williams: This is a long running thread on Richard wanting to stdize what error responses look like in the protocol [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:16:01 <sandro> ... he wrote this when we were using WSDL
Sandro Hawke: ... he wrote this when we were using WSDL ←
14:16:23 <sandro> ... Lee and I talk about me working out details with Richard
Sandro Hawke: ... Lee and I talk about me working out details with Richard ←
14:16:42 <sandro> ... adding some text, in a non-normative way, suggesting people use HTTP status line, is appropriate.
Sandro Hawke: ... adding some text, in a non-normative way, suggesting people use HTTP status line, is appropriate. ←
14:16:56 <sandro> ... Richard wanted it as response body should be that message.
Sandro Hawke: ... Richard wanted it as response body should be that message. ←
14:17:46 <AndyS> Does anyone have experience of intermediaries changed supplied text?
Andy Seaborne: Does anyone have experience of intermediaries changed supplied text? ←
14:17:53 <sandro> sandro: like in "404 not found" you would be changing the "not found"
Sandro Hawke: like in "404 not found" you would be changing the "not found" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:18:30 <sandro> sandro: does the spec let you change it?
Sandro Hawke: does the spec let you change it? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:18:47 <sandro> kasei: Yes, the spec says this text is meant for humans.
Gregory Williams: Yes, the spec says this text is meant for humans. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:19:42 <sandro> sandro: you're planning on putting more specific information in that text?
Sandro Hawke: you're planning on putting more specific information in that text? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:19:52 <sandro> kasei: Yes. We've got this in the examples.
Gregory Williams: Yes. We've got this in the examples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:20:01 <kasei> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/Overview.xml
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/Overview.xml ←
14:20:12 <kasei> HTTP/1.1 500 Query Request Refused
HTTP/1.1 500 Query Request Refused ←
14:20:23 <kasei> HTTP/1.1 400 Syntax Error
HTTP/1.1 400 Syntax Error ←
14:21:27 <sandro> sandro: So you want people to be able to put HTML in the body
Sandro Hawke: So you want people to be able to put HTML in the body [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:21:37 <sandro> kasei: We don't want to standardize that.
Gregory Williams: We don't want to standardize that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:22:40 <sandro> sandro: So, how hard is it to get at this in software
Sandro Hawke: So, how hard is it to get at this in software [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:23:49 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
14:24:42 <sandro> ack AndyS
Sandro Hawke: ack AndyS ←
14:25:10 <sandro> AndyS: I do occassionally see HTTP status messages in different languages.
Andy Seaborne: I do occassionally see HTTP status messages in different languages. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:25:47 <AxelPolleres> Is this comething we need resolved to progress? (after all, it's a non-normative section, right?)
Axel Polleres: Is this comething we need resolved to progress? (after all, it's a non-normative section, right?) ←
14:26:08 <sandro> scribe: pgearon
(Scribe set to Paula Gearon)
14:26:23 <pgearon> kasei: my computer seems to have locked up
Gregory Williams: my computer seems to have locked up ←
14:26:31 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JulSep/0177.html
Sandro Hawke: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JulSep/0177.html ←
14:26:43 <pgearon> sandro: what other issues can we progress, and how far?
Sandro Hawke: what other issues can we progress, and how far? ←
14:27:05 <sandro> topic: Query
14:27:18 <pgearon> sandro: are we ready to go to PR for Query?
Sandro Hawke: are we ready to go to PR for Query? ←
14:27:48 <pgearon> sandro: 2 implementations for every test case. Is there a document that shows that?
Sandro Hawke: 2 implementations for every test case. Is there a document that shows that? ←
14:28:19 <sandro> kasei: bind, datasets
Gregory Williams: bind, datasets [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:28:27 <pgearon> AndyS: where are we on the final errors that came up? Greg?
Andy Seaborne: where are we on the final errors that came up? Greg? ←
14:28:54 <AxelPolleres> my question would be: shall we rather wait a week(?) until tests are re-run or progress to CR now? (probably the former?)
Axel Polleres: my question would be: shall we rather wait a week(?) until tests are re-run or progress to CR now? (probably the former?) ←
14:29:08 <pgearon> AndyS: didn't feel we can change the test suite with tests that are not approved
Andy Seaborne: didn't feel we can change the test suite with tests that are not approved ←
14:29:17 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JulSep/0169.html
Andy Seaborne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JulSep/0169.html ←
14:29:24 <pgearon> kasei: I may have removed test from manifest, but not removed the actual test
Gregory Williams: I may have removed test from manifest, but not removed the actual test ←
14:29:59 <pgearon> AndyS: who's putting in results for tests?
Andy Seaborne: who's putting in results for tests? ←
14:30:26 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/
Chimezie Ogbuji: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/ ←
14:30:27 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/ ←
14:31:00 <pgearon> kasei: between AndyS and I (except these tests) I think we have full implementations
Gregory Williams: between AndyS and I (except these tests) I think we have full implementations ←
14:31:15 <bglimm> I plan to submit a test report later this week for ent. tests
Birte Glimm: I plan to submit a test report later this week for ent. tests ←
14:31:24 <pgearon> AndyS: Rob Vesse wants to get dotNetRdf onto the list
Andy Seaborne: Rob Vesse wants to get dotNetRdf onto the list ←
14:32:01 <pgearon> kasei: think Jeen is interested, but stopped running regularly while the tests were in flux. He may be interested in running again now that the tests are stable
Gregory Williams: think Jeen is interested, but stopped running regularly while the tests were in flux. He may be interested in running again now that the tests are stable ←
14:32:09 <pgearon> AndyS: how long is CR?
Andy Seaborne: how long is CR? ←
14:32:19 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: -AxelPolleres ←
14:32:22 <pgearon> sandro: ~3-4 weeks
Sandro Hawke: ~3-4 weeks ←
14:33:09 <pgearon> kasei: getting results from people to update the page is indeterminant. I can do my own results quickly
Gregory Williams: getting results from people to update the page is indeterminant. I can do my own results quickly ←
14:33:34 <Zakim> -pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon ←
14:33:57 <kasei> scribenick: kasei
(Scribe set to Gregory Williams)
14:34:13 <Zakim> +pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon ←
14:34:34 <kasei> sandro: seems to me that we should try to go straight to PR as soon as we can get fixed test results
Sandro Hawke: seems to me that we should try to go straight to PR as soon as we can get fixed test results ←
14:35:19 <kasei> sandro: the implementations report looks good for many specs. is that accurate?
Sandro Hawke: the implementations report looks good for many specs. is that accurate? ←
14:37:05 <kasei> kasei: everything but Query, Update, and Federation should be good.
Gregory Williams: everything but Query, Update, and Federation should be good. ←
14:37:26 <kasei> ... those three were affected by recent test changes, so need to be look at again.
... those three were affected by recent test changes, so need to be look at again. ←
14:37:33 <sandro> sandro: Any GSP tests?
Sandro Hawke: Any GSP tests? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:37:38 <kasei> chimezie: I'm working on GSP tests.
Chimezie Ogbuji: I'm working on GSP tests. ←
14:37:48 <sandro> chimezie: Still underway. Do we need a harness?
Chimezie Ogbuji: Still underway. Do we need a harness? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:37:54 <kasei> ... still a question on the test harness, but I've got an action to create the actual tests.
... still a question on the test harness, but I've got an action to create the actual tests. ←
14:37:55 <cbuil> +q
Carlos Buil Aranda: +q ←
14:38:10 <kasei> cbuil: what's missing from federation?
Carlos Buil Aranda: what's missing from federation? ←
14:38:57 <kasei> kasei: nothing is missing, but one of the federation tests got affected by recent BIND changes.
Gregory Williams: nothing is missing, but one of the federation tests got affected by recent BIND changes. ←
14:39:06 <kasei> ... so the results need to be re-done.
... so the results need to be re-done. ←
14:39:26 <kasei> sandro: if people are able to move forward quickly, in 1-3 weeks we should have updated test results
Sandro Hawke: if people are able to move forward quickly, in 1-3 weeks we should have updated test results ←
14:39:45 <AndyS> kasei - please check http://people.apache.org/~andy/ARQ-earl-2012-09-11.ttl
Andy Seaborne: kasei - please check http://people.apache.org/~andy/ARQ-earl-2012-09-11.ttl ←
14:39:48 <kasei> ... so things looking good in the implementations results should go to PR. CR with others (GSP, Entailment)
... so things looking good in the implementations results should go to PR. CR with others (GSP, Entailment) ←
14:40:06 <kasei> AndyS - will do
AndyS - will do ←
14:40:15 <cbuil> I will work on the test results
Carlos Buil Aranda: I will work on the test results ←
14:41:16 <kasei> sandro: are there other implementors that know we're asking for test results?
Sandro Hawke: are there other implementors that know we're asking for test results? ←
14:42:00 <bglimm> I asked Kendall Clark, Jeff Pan and Michael Schneider
Birte Glimm: I asked Kendall Clark, Jeff Pan and Michael Schneider ←
14:42:20 <bglimm> Chime is talking to the SILK implementors
Birte Glimm: Chime is talking to the SILK implementors ←
14:42:30 <kasei> kasei: virtuoso is nominally on the WG
Gregory Williams: virtuoso is nominally on the WG ←
14:42:45 <kasei> AndyS: didn't we send out an email to the sparql list(s)?
Andy Seaborne: didn't we send out an email to the sparql list(s)? ←
14:43:45 <kasei> sandro: looking on public-sparql-dev...
Sandro Hawke: looking on public-sparql-dev... ←
14:43:50 <kasei> AndyS: I can't see anything.
Andy Seaborne: I can't see anything. ←
14:44:04 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sparql-dev/2010AprJun/0008.html
Sandro Hawke: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sparql-dev/2010AprJun/0008.html ←
14:44:09 <sandro> Public implementations of SPARQL 1.1 draft features?
Sandro Hawke: Public implementations of SPARQL 1.1 draft features? ←
14:45:26 <kasei> sandro: worst case is we try to do PR in 2 weeks and we can't make the case we've done wide enough outreach.
Sandro Hawke: worst case is we try to do PR in 2 weeks and we can't make the case we've done wide enough outreach. ←
14:45:49 <kasei> ... then we do CR for a month and come back. hopefully we would get the reamining documents on board at that point.
... then we do CR for a month and come back. hopefully we would get the reamining documents on board at that point. ←
14:45:59 <kasei> ... or we don't have to try for PR right now.
... or we don't have to try for PR right now. ←
14:46:16 <kasei> AndyS: I think we need LeeF or Axel's opinions on this.
Andy Seaborne: I think we need LeeF or Axel's opinions on this. ←
14:46:45 <kasei> sandro: our deadline is the end of the year (?)
Sandro Hawke: our deadline is the end of the year (?) ←
14:47:40 <kasei> sandro: working backwards, PR needs to go out first week of november.
Sandro Hawke: working backwards, PR needs to go out first week of november. ←
14:47:53 <kasei> ... november is busy with TPAC and ISWC and publishing moritorium.
... november is busy with TPAC and ISWC and publishing moritorium. ←
14:48:02 <kasei> ... not a lot of time to kill.
... not a lot of time to kill. ←
14:48:12 <kasei> ... have time for a quick CR for the things that need it.
... have time for a quick CR for the things that need it. ←
14:48:37 <kasei> ... what implementations do we have that do GSP? two that might pass the coming tests?
... what implementations do we have that do GSP? two that might pass the coming tests? ←
14:48:49 <kasei> chimezie: Andy has mentioned Fuseki before, and I have one.
Chimezie Ogbuji: Andy has mentioned Fuseki before, and I have one. ←
14:49:02 <kasei> sandro: so that could concievable by ready in a few weeks?
Sandro Hawke: so that could concievable by ready in a few weeks? ←
14:49:04 <kasei> chimezie: yes.
Chimezie Ogbuji: yes. ←
14:49:28 <kasei> sandro: aob?
Sandro Hawke: aob? ←
14:49:48 <kasei> chimezie: is there a precedent for putting text in the spec that referrs to future work?
Chimezie Ogbuji: is there a precedent for putting text in the spec that referrs to future work? ←
14:50:10 <kasei> ... we have places for saying "at risk," but don't see anything that says "this could change in the future".
... we have places for saying "at risk," but don't see anything that says "this could change in the future". ←
14:50:16 <kasei> sandro: for things that might change after REC?
Sandro Hawke: for things that might change after REC? ←
14:50:40 <kasei> ... no so much that it would change, but that it's left open for future standardization work.
... no so much that it would change, but that it's left open for future standardization work. ←
14:50:46 <kasei> ... can't think of a specific case.
... can't think of a specific case. ←
14:52:05 <kasei> sandro: adjourned
Sandro Hawke: adjourned ←
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