13:54:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/20-sparql-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/20-sparql-irc ←
13:55:03 <sandro> zakim, this will be sparql
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this will be sparql ←
13:55:05 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes ←
13:57:29 <kasei> sandro, did you have thoughts on my sd:name followup email?
Gregory Williams: sandro, did you have thoughts on my sd:name followup email? ←
13:58:35 <AndyS> Problems with zakim? I get junk sounds back when I dial in.
Andy Seaborne: Problems with zakim? I get junk sounds back when I dial in. ←
13:58:38 <sandro> yes, kasei but I didn't finish sending them. :-(
Sandro Hawke: yes, kasei but I didn't finish sending them. :-( ←
13:58:45 <kasei> ok
Gregory Williams: ok ←
13:59:17 <sandro> short version: those aren't problems -- I stand by my proposal.
Sandro Hawke: short version: those aren't problems -- I stand by my proposal. ←
13:59:27 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world
Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:59:28 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started ←
13:59:35 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aaaa ←
13:59:40 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
13:59:42 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.603.897.aaaa ←
13:59:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:00:00 <kasei> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Gregory Williams: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
14:00:00 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei; got it ←
14:00:04 <bglimm> I also get all circuitsare busy now when calling
Birte Glimm: I also get all circuitsare busy now when calling ←
14:00:13 <Zakim> +pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon ←
14:00:23 <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.4.92.38.aabb ←
14:00:24 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aacc ←
14:00:25 <sandro> AndyS, bglimm -- are you using the UK number or the US number?
Sandro Hawke: AndyS, bglimm -- are you using the UK number or the US number? ←
14:00:26 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
Zakim IRC Bot: +Lee_Feigenbaum ←
14:00:30 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, what is the code? ←
14:00:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro ←
14:00:31 <MattPerry> zakim, aacc is me
Matthew Perry: zakim, aacc is me ←
14:00:32 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MattPerry; got it ←
14:00:34 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres ←
14:00:35 <kasei> ack [IPcaller]
Gregory Williams: ack [IPcaller] ←
14:00:41 <bglimm> I am trying the new UK number
Birte Glimm: I am trying the new UK number ←
14:00:47 <OlivierCorby> zakim, aabb is me
Olivier Corby: zakim, aabb is me ←
14:00:47 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby; got it ←
14:00:55 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:00:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, kasei, pgearon, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, Lee_Feigenbaum, AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, kasei, pgearon, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, Lee_Feigenbaum, AxelPolleres ←
14:00:55 <sandro> I know the france number was not working yesterday. :-(
Sandro Hawke: I know the france number was not working yesterday. :-( ←
14:01:02 <AndyS> I get invalid UK number
Andy Seaborne: I get invalid UK number ←
14:01:22 <bglimm> I am trying France now
Birte Glimm: I am trying France now ←
14:01:35 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
14:01:35 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
14:01:37 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
14:01:50 <bglimm> Zakim, passcode
Birte Glimm: Zakim, passcode ←
14:01:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode', bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'passcode', bglimm ←
14:02:04 <sandro> Zakim, what is the passcode?
Sandro Hawke: Zakim, what is the passcode? ←
14:02:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro ←
14:02:13 <AxelPolleres> andy, did you use the new number?
Axel Polleres: andy, did you use the new number? ←
14:02:13 <Zakim> + +44.186.528.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.186.528.aadd ←
14:02:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:02:22 <bglimm> Zakim, +44.186.528.aadd is me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, +44.186.528.aadd is me ←
14:02:22 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it ←
14:02:26 <AndyS> Yes - used the new number.
Andy Seaborne: Yes - used the new number. ←
14:02:28 <bglimm> France worked now
Birte Glimm: France worked now ←
14:02:34 <bglimm> UK doesn't
Birte Glimm: UK doesn't ←
14:02:49 <AndyS> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, [IPCaller] is me ←
14:02:49 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
14:02:54 <kasei> Zakim, who is talking?
Gregory Williams: Zakim, who is talking? ←
14:02:57 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aaee ←
14:02:57 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
14:02:58 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
14:03:05 <Zakim> kasei, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (38%), MattPerry (10%), AndyS (42%), Ivan (15%)
Zakim IRC Bot: kasei, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (38%), MattPerry (10%), AndyS (42%), Ivan (15%) ←
14:03:08 <sandro> I hear: <amy> i believe that the new zakim # is limited to a smaller number it can handle at a time. people should keep trying slowly
Sandro Hawke: I hear: <amy> i believe that the new zakim # is limited to a smaller number it can handle at a time. people should keep trying slowly ←
14:03:12 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:03:12 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted ←
14:03:25 <chimezie> Zakim, what is the passcode?
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, what is the passcode? ←
14:03:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), chimezie
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), chimezie ←
14:03:34 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:03:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, kasei, pgearon, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, Lee_Feigenbaum, AxelPolleres, Ivan, bglimm, AndyS, +1.603.897.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, kasei, pgearon, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, Lee_Feigenbaum, AxelPolleres, Ivan, bglimm, AndyS, +1.603.897.aaee ←
14:03:58 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
Zakim IRC Bot: +Chimezie_Ogbuji ←
14:04:40 <AxelPolleres> nick, do you plan to dial in, can you scribe?
Axel Polleres: nick, do you plan to dial in, can you scribe? ←
14:04:56 <NicholasH> yeah, tryiing to dial in, but the UK number isn't working for me
Nicholas Humfrey: yeah, tryiing to dial in, but the UK number isn't working for me ←
14:05:06 <AxelPolleres> scribe: ChimezieOgbuji
(Scribe set to Chimezie Ogbuji)
14:05:13 <AxelPolleres> chair: AxelPolleres
14:05:17 <NicholasH> and had to kick someone out of the room I booked :(
Nicholas Humfrey: and had to kick someone out of the room I booked :( ←
14:05:21 <AxelPolleres> regrets: AlexandrePassant
14:12:04 <AxelPolleres> topic: admin
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
14:05:35 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-07-20
14:05:56 <chimezie> Axel: back from vacation, still catching up
Axel Polleres: back from vacation, still catching up ←
14:06:16 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-07-13
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-07-13 ←
14:06:34 <LeeF> look good to me
Lee Feigenbaum: look good to me ←
14:06:35 <AndyS> seconded
Andy Seaborne: seconded ←
14:06:36 <NicholasH> UK number: "all circuits are busy now"
Nicholas Humfrey: UK number: "all circuits are busy now" ←
14:06:40 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-07-13
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-07-13 ←
14:07:03 <AxelPolleres> nick, can you scribe next week?
Axel Polleres: nick, can you scribe next week? ←
14:07:05 <Souri> zakim, aaee is me
Souripriya Das: zakim, aaee is me ←
14:07:05 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it ←
14:07:38 <chimezie> Axel: have new numbers, both should work but there are issues with UK numbers
Axel Polleres: have new numbers, both should work but there are issues with UK numbers ←
14:07:46 <chimezie> Sandro: may just be slow
Sandro Hawke: may just be slow ←
14:07:49 <bglimm> I can try dialing in again now
Birte Glimm: I can try dialing in again now ←
14:08:12 <chimezie> AndyS: got an invalid number response
Andy Seaborne: got an invalid number response ←
14:08:13 <bglimm> I just had busy circuit
Birte Glimm: I just had busy circuit ←
14:08:25 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
14:08:40 <kasei> regrets for next week, will be traveling
Gregory Williams: regrets for next week, will be traveling ←
14:12:04 <AxelPolleres> topic: update model TC
14:09:04 <chimezie> Axel: need dedicated telecon for update model
Axel Polleres: need dedicated telecon for update model ←
14:09:14 <chimezie> ... Lee sent around link to doodle poll
... Lee sent around link to doodle poll ←
14:09:17 <AxelPolleres> doodle poll for update TC http://doodle.com/f83f6fe3e8g4gm5u
Axel Polleres: doodle poll for update TC http://doodle.com/f83f6fe3e8g4gm5u ←
14:09:20 <Zakim> +bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm ←
14:09:30 <bglimm> UK still does not work: busy circuits
Birte Glimm: UK still does not work: busy circuits ←
14:09:56 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
14:09:56 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
14:10:25 <kasei> I'm interested in the TC, but if it's an issue of getting everyone together, I don't need to be there (as I listed quite a few days of unavailability)
Gregory Williams: I'm interested in the TC, but if it's an issue of getting everyone together, I don't need to be there (as I listed quite a few days of unavailability) ←
14:11:34 <AxelPolleres> let's fix Fri 30th July 4pm UK time, 11am Eastern time
Axel Polleres: let's fix Fri 30th July 4pm UK time, 11am Eastern time ←
14:11:47 <sandro> (midnight in Japan. :-)
Sandro Hawke: (midnight in Japan. :-) ←
14:12:04 <AxelPolleres> topic: approval of test cases
14:12:51 <LeeF> Andy ran them successfully, I've looked at them and am happy with them.
Lee Feigenbaum: Andy ran them successfully, I've looked at them and am happy with them. ←
14:13:02 <LeeF> We accepted 1-4
Lee Feigenbaum: We accepted 1-4 ←
14:13:05 <LeeF> so 5-10
Lee Feigenbaum: so 5-10 ←
14:13:10 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
14:13:23 <chimezie> AndyS: I execute them and get the right answers
Andy Seaborne: I execute them and get the right answers ←
14:13:29 <NicholasH> Zakim, ??P5 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P5 is me ←
14:13:29 <Zakim> +NicholasH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NicholasH; got it ←
14:13:40 <chimezie> ... tests have separate meanings now we moved things around
... tests have separate meanings now we moved things around ←
14:13:45 <chimezie> Axel: Okay to approve?
Axel Polleres: Okay to approve? ←
14:13:47 <kasei> +1
Gregory Williams: +1 ←
14:13:52 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: approve subquery test cases 5-10
PROPOSED: approve subquery test cases 5-10 ←
14:14:05 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
Zakim, mute me ←
14:14:05 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted ←
14:14:06 <LeeF> SteveH abstains
Lee Feigenbaum: SteveH abstains ←
14:14:12 <LeeF> (based on last week)
Lee Feigenbaum: (based on last week) ←
14:14:28 <AndyS> who else has executed them?
Andy Seaborne: who else has executed them? ←
14:14:38 <LeeF> No one, as far as I know.
Lee Feigenbaum: No one, as far as I know. ←
14:14:43 <LeeF> No
Lee Feigenbaum: No ←
14:14:54 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
14:15:36 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: approve subquery test cases 5-10
RESOLVED: approve subquery test cases 5-10 ←
14:16:08 <AndyS> Thanks go to Olivier for creating the tests
Andy Seaborne: Thanks go to Olivier for creating the tests ←
14:12:04 <AxelPolleres> topic: issues on graph names in service description
14:16:19 <AxelPolleres> issues on graph names in service description http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0024.html
Axel Polleres: issues on graph names in service description http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0024.html ←
14:16:46 <chimezie> Axel: there is some confusion WRT graph names when there are same as statements
Axel Polleres: there is some confusion WRT graph names when there are same as statements ←
14:17:00 <chimezie> kasei: there is agreement that it is a non issue
Gregory Williams: there is agreement that it is a non issue ←
14:17:09 <chimezie> Sandro: issues are not about same as
Sandro Hawke: issues are not about same as ←
14:17:16 <LeeF> modelling issue
Lee Feigenbaum: modelling issue ←
14:17:21 <chimezie> kasei: disagreement on modeling WRT naming
Gregory Williams: disagreement on modeling WRT naming ←
14:17:35 <LeeF> I think I agree with Greg - because of cases of things like having statistics about the graph in the context of a particular endpoint
Lee Feigenbaum: I think I agree with Greg - because of cases of things like having statistics about the graph in the context of a particular endpoint ←
14:17:48 <chimezie> Sandro: my issue is that current model says there is a named graph, with a name, and the name of the graph is the graph itself
Sandro Hawke: my issue is that current model says there is a named graph, with a name, and the name of the graph is the graph itself ←
14:18:04 <chimezie> kasei: wording in current query document, has that sentence
Gregory Williams: wording in current query document, has that sentence ←
14:18:47 <chimezie> Sandro: A URI has to be in quotes to be a name for a graph, pointy brackets are what they denote (<..> v.s. "..")
Sandro Hawke: A URI has to be in quotes to be a name for a graph, pointy brackets are what they denote (<..> v.s. "..") ←
14:19:48 <chimezie> ... URI of graph and what it denotes is not the issue here. names are strings not things in domain of discourse
... URI of graph and what it denotes is not the issue here. names are strings not things in domain of discourse ←
14:20:06 <AxelPolleres> what'd be the issue with using xsd:anyURI literals as range?
Axel Polleres: what'd be the issue with using xsd:anyURI literals as range? ←
14:20:39 <AndyS> The named graph paper says the named graph is the pair (name, graph) not the graph.
Andy Seaborne: The named graph paper says the named graph is the pair (name, graph) not the graph. ←
14:20:47 <chimezie> Sandro: no builtin in SPARQL to help with this
Sandro Hawke: no builtin in SPARQL to help with this ←
14:21:01 <kasei> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0046.html
Gregory Williams: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0046.html ←
14:21:48 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0036.html
Axel Polleres: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JulSep/0036.html ←
14:22:12 <sandro> [] a sd:Dataset ;
Sandro Hawke: [] a sd:Dataset ; ←
14:22:12 <sandro> sd:namedGraph <http://www.example/named-graph>.
Sandro Hawke: sd:namedGraph <http://www.example/named-graph>. ←
14:23:38 <chimezie> i'm not sure why using xsd:AnyUri isn't appropriate, seems to address the problem directly
i'm not sure why using xsd:AnyUri isn't appropriate, seems to address the problem directly ←
14:24:24 <chimezie> kasei: what about entailment? Sandro suggested that whenever a service had entailment on a named graph it should have a different name with the same underlying graph
Gregory Williams: what about entailment? Sandro suggested that whenever a service had entailment on a named graph it should have a different name with the same underlying graph ←
14:24:43 <chimezie> Sandro: entailment is a relationship between graphs that should have different URIs
Sandro Hawke: entailment is a relationship between graphs that should have different URIs ←
14:24:58 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:24:58 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted ←
14:25:05 <bglimm> q+
Birte Glimm: q+ ←
14:25:06 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
14:25:08 <kasei> SELECT * FROM NAMED <a> WHERE { GRAPH <b> { ... } }
Gregory Williams: SELECT * FROM NAMED <a> WHERE { GRAPH <b> { ... } } ←
14:26:15 <AndyS> Entailment is not a property of the graph deferred by <http://www.example/named-graph>
Andy Seaborne: Entailment is not a property of the graph deferred by <http://www.example/named-graph> ←
14:26:30 <chimezie> bglimm: can't follow discussion, not sure what the problem is. Why need new name for <a>?
Birte Glimm: can't follow discussion, not sure what the problem is. Why need new name for <a>? ←
14:26:36 <LeeF> I still don't think that entailment is the only case where the same graph might have different properties in the context of different endpoints
Lee Feigenbaum: I still don't think that entailment is the only case where the same graph might have different properties in the context of different endpoints ←
14:26:52 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
Zakim, unmute me ←
14:26:53 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted ←
14:27:03 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
14:27:05 <LeeF> access statistics, access control, ...
Lee Feigenbaum: access statistics, access control, ... ←
14:27:10 <ivan> ack bglimm
Ivan Herman: ack bglimm ←
14:27:13 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
14:27:35 <AxelPolleres> in which graph is <a> sameAs <b> ?
Axel Polleres: in which graph is <a> sameAs <b> ? ←
14:27:39 <chimezie> I don't see the problem either
I don't see the problem either ←
14:28:49 <chimezie> ... lots of conversation about clarifying entailment and graph identity ...
... lots of conversation about clarifying entailment and graph identity ... ←
14:29:42 <AxelPolleres> any's on the q ...
Axel Polleres: any's on the q ... ←
14:29:48 <bglimm> ack me
Birte Glimm: ack me ←
14:30:17 <chimezie> AndyS: 2 things. on SW when you deref URI you get data back involving sameAs assertions, how you treat them is a decision on the person pulling data in
Andy Seaborne: 2 things. on SW when you deref URI you get data back involving sameAs assertions, how you treat them is a decision on the person pulling data in ←
14:30:25 <chimezie> ... not a property of the graph (a declarative structure)
... not a property of the graph (a declarative structure) ←
14:30:48 <chimezie> ... there is no 'graph' with entailment
... there is no 'graph' with entailment ←
14:31:22 <bglimm> for OWL there is not one graph with entailment, you just cannot build one graph that captures all entailments
Birte Glimm: for OWL there is not one graph with entailment, you just cannot build one graph that captures all entailments ←
14:31:29 <AxelPolleres> SELECT * FROM NAMED <a> WHERE { GRAPH <b> { ... } }
Axel Polleres: SELECT * FROM NAMED <a> WHERE { GRAPH <b> { ... } } ←
14:31:37 <chimezie> SELECT * FROM NAMED <a> WHERE { GRAPH <b> { ... } } -> [] , right?
SELECT * FROM NAMED <a> WHERE { GRAPH <b> { ... } } -> [] , right? ←
14:33:02 <chimezie> Sandro: RDF graph a contains RDFS statements (subClassOf statements)
Sandro Hawke: RDF graph a contains RDFS statements (subClassOf statements) ←
14:33:06 <sandro> <a> subclassof <b>. <b> subclass <c>.
Sandro Hawke: <a> subclassof <b>. <b> subclass <c>. ←
14:33:18 <AxelPolleres> <g1>
Axel Polleres: <g1> ←
14:33:26 <sandro> g1 is { <a> subclassof <b>. <b> subclass <c>. }
Sandro Hawke: g1 is { <a> subclassof <b>. <b> subclass <c>. } ←
14:35:01 <chimezie> Sandro: N3 has a different notion of graph. SPARQL notion of named graph is what i mean here
Sandro Hawke: N3 has a different notion of graph. SPARQL notion of named graph is what i mean here ←
14:35:31 <AxelPolleres> SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> { ... } } -> [] ?
Axel Polleres: SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> { ... } } -> [] ? ←
14:35:38 <sandro> g2 is { <a> subclassof <b>. <b> subclassof <c>. <a> subclassof <c> }
Sandro Hawke: g2 is { <a> subclassof <b>. <b> subclassof <c>. <a> subclassof <c> } ←
14:36:01 <sandro> g2 is { <a> subclassof <b>. <b> subclassof <c>. <a> subclassof <c>. ... }
Sandro Hawke: g2 is { <a> subclassof <b>. <b> subclassof <c>. <a> subclassof <c>. ... } ←
14:36:02 <kasei> infinite triples...
Gregory Williams: infinite triples... ←
14:36:30 <ivan> question, what is SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g1> { ?x subclass ?y }} with RDFS semantics turned on?
Ivan Herman: question, what is SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g1> { ?x subclass ?y }} with RDFS semantics turned on? ←
14:36:40 <LeeF> g2 is definitely not in the dataset there
Lee Feigenbaum: g2 is definitely not in the dataset there ←
14:36:59 <AxelPolleres> the dataset is explicitly specified by FRPOM/FROM NAMED
Axel Polleres: the dataset is explicitly specified by FRPOM/FROM NAMED ←
14:37:01 <LeeF> dataset definition in SPARQL is closed world :)
Lee Feigenbaum: dataset definition in SPARQL is closed world :) ←
14:37:12 <Souri> We do distinguish between a graph vs the entailed versions of that graph because a graph can be entailed with different entailment regimes. The way we do that is to allow an extra argument that specifies the entailment regime(s) being used.
Souripriya Das: We do distinguish between a graph vs the entailed versions of that graph because a graph can be entailed with different entailment regimes. The way we do that is to allow an extra argument that specifies the entailment regime(s) being used. ←
14:37:23 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
14:37:26 <LeeF> Souri, do you give it a different URI?
Lee Feigenbaum: Souri, do you give it a different URI? ←
14:37:26 <AndyS> query is closed world ... it has to stop sometime :-)
Andy Seaborne: query is closed world ... it has to stop sometime :-) ←
14:37:31 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
14:37:33 <AndyS> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
14:38:54 <LeeF> ack ivan
Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivan ←
14:39:37 <Souri> No, we do not give it a different name, but we associate an "attachment" that includes entailment regime(s) and the combination of the query plus the attachment is sent over to Oracle DB.
Souripriya Das: No, we do not give it a different name, but we associate an "attachment" that includes entailment regime(s) and the combination of the query plus the attachment is sent over to Oracle DB. ←
14:39:42 <AndyS> """the relationship between an IRI and a graph in an RDF dataset is indirect."""
Andy Seaborne: """the relationship between an IRI and a graph in an RDF dataset is indirect.""" ←
14:40:14 <chimezie> There is conflation about what is in the graph (syntactically) and what is entailed (which is about what follows from the axioms, etc..)
There is conflation about what is in the graph (syntactically) and what is entailed (which is about what follows from the axioms, etc..) ←
14:40:49 <AndyS> q+ to note there isn't always one entailed graph
Andy Seaborne: q+ to note there isn't always one entailed graph ←
14:40:52 <bglimm> RDF Semantics also defines entailment between graphs and not entailment between a premise and a conclusion
Birte Glimm: RDF Semantics also defines entailment between graphs and not entailment between a premise and a conclusion ←
14:41:00 <chimezie> thinking about entailment as a relationship between two materialized graphs, is a misunderstanding of entailment
thinking about entailment as a relationship between two materialized graphs, is a misunderstanding of entailment ←
14:41:08 <bglimm> we just don't do sub-graph matching any more
Birte Glimm: we just don't do sub-graph matching any more ←
14:41:21 <ivan> SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> { ?x subclass ?y }; <g1> entails <g2> } is what one is considers...
Ivan Herman: SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> { ?x subclass ?y }; <g1> entails <g2> } is what one is considers... ←
14:41:24 <Souri> We have been exploring a way to include the entailment regime(s) with standard graph names. So, for example FROM NAMED <g1> FROM NAMED orardf:rdfs ...
Souripriya Das: We have been exploring a way to include the entailment regime(s) with standard graph names. So, for example FROM NAMED <g1> FROM NAMED orardf:rdfs ... ←
14:44:00 <Souri> mega-graph == entailed graph?
Souripriya Das: mega-graph == entailed graph? ←
14:44:15 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
14:44:28 <AndyS> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
14:44:41 <bglimm> mega-graph for logicians is a canonical model, but that might not help here ;-) entailed graph if there were only one entailed graph
Birte Glimm: mega-graph for logicians is a canonical model, but that might not help here ;-) entailed graph if there were only one entailed graph ←
14:44:46 <chimezie> <a> subclassof <c> is not *in* (syntactically) <g1> but it is *entailed* by <g1> WRT RDFS
<a> subclassof <c> is not *in* (syntactically) <g1> but it is *entailed* by <g1> WRT RDFS ←
14:45:07 <AxelPolleres> I'd rather say that the relationship between gragph and entailment regime is not direct...
Axel Polleres: I'd rather say that the relationship between gragph and entailment regime is not direct... ←
14:45:25 <chimezie> in and entailed are orthogonal relationships
in and entailed are orthogonal relationships ←
14:46:44 <bglimm> If we were strictly sticking to non-disjunctive formalisms, we could define everything in terms of deductive closures, but then OWL is out forever
Birte Glimm: If we were strictly sticking to non-disjunctive formalisms, we could define everything in terms of deductive closures, but then OWL is out forever ←
14:46:51 <LeeF> ack Souri
Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri ←
14:47:10 <chimezie> Souri: have had difficulty in not specifying entailment regime
Souripriya Das: have had difficulty in not specifying entailment regime ←
14:47:29 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
14:47:34 <sandro> YES. Changing the language to add an entailment parameter, as Souri says, would be much clearer
Sandro Hawke: YES. Changing the language to add an entailment parameter, as Souri says, would be much clearer ←
14:47:52 <AxelPolleres> hmmm, this sounds like picking up parameterized entailment, but we ruled this out in the beginning
Axel Polleres: hmmm, this sounds like picking up parameterized entailment, but we ruled this out in the beginning ←
14:47:53 <chimezie> ... we thought of ways to guarantee to user that with certain arguments, results will match
... we thought of ways to guarantee to user that with certain arguments, results will match ←
14:47:58 <AndyS> Jena currently requires different names for same graph (graph=value) under different entailment regimes.
Andy Seaborne: Jena currently requires different names for same graph (graph=value) under different entailment regimes. ←
14:48:04 <chimezie> ... will not be specified arbitrarily
... will not be specified arbitrarily ←
14:48:19 <bglimm> I would also like to be able to specify the regime in the query and not fixed per endpoint
Birte Glimm: I would also like to be able to specify the regime in the query and not fixed per endpoint ←
14:48:26 <chimezie> I agree, this is a big hole we have with entailment regime usage, that we have punted on
I agree, this is a big hole we have with entailment regime usage, that we have punted on ←
14:48:29 <bglimm> but I thought it is out of scope
Birte Glimm: but I thought it is out of scope ←
14:49:00 <chimezie> Souri: we can use standard names to specify entailment regime within query
Souripriya Das: we can use standard names to specify entailment regime within query ←
14:49:02 <sandro> souri: we explored FROM NAME [some std name for OWL-entailment]
Souripriya Das: we explored FROM NAME [some std name for OWL-entailment] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:49:08 <LeeF> Yes, it is something we discussed last year and did not make the scope of our work.
Lee Feigenbaum: Yes, it is something we discussed last year and did not make the scope of our work. ←
14:49:38 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ParameterizedInference
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ParameterizedInference ←
14:49:45 <AxelPolleres> oracle does it with prefix... i.e. has some naming convention for inference.
Axel Polleres: oracle does it with prefix... i.e. has some naming convention for inference. ←
14:50:03 <chimezie> last, I checked the thread ended here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0051.html
last, I checked the thread ended here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0051.html ←
14:50:48 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
14:50:49 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to mark subquery tests 5-10 approved
ACTION: Lee to mark subquery tests 5-10 approved ←
14:50:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-280 - Mark subquery tests 5-10 approved [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-07-27].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-280 - Mark subquery tests 5-10 approved [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-07-27]. ←
14:50:53 <chimezie> Axel: we now have a definition of an entailment regime but not how to reference it explicitely
Axel Polleres: we now have a definition of an entailment regime but not how to reference it explicitely ←
14:51:03 <chimezie> ... we are drifting away from original question
... we are drifting away from original question ←
14:51:04 <AndyS> Isn't this the role of service description now?
Andy Seaborne: Isn't this the role of service description now? ←
14:51:21 <sandro> SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> ENTAILS(e1) { ?x subclass ?y } }
Sandro Hawke: SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> ENTAILS(e1) { ?x subclass ?y } } ←
14:51:26 <chimezie> not sufficient, to allow the user to specify semantics of the query
not sufficient, to allow the user to specify semantics of the query ←
14:51:33 <AndyS> To do the *query* (algebra) under entailment, is not the same as BGPs under entailment.
Andy Seaborne: To do the *query* (algebra) under entailment, is not the same as BGPs under entailment. ←
14:51:52 <chimezie> Axel: we are risking scope creep
Axel Polleres: we are risking scope creep ←
14:51:54 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
14:51:57 <LeeF> ack ivan
Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivan ←
14:52:02 <ivan> SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> { ?x subclass ?y }; <g1> entails <g2> }
Ivan Herman: SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> { ?x subclass ?y }; <g1> entails <g2> } ←
14:52:06 <chimezie> Ivan: respectfully disagree
Ivan Herman: respectfully disagree ←
14:52:17 <AndyS> Curious: Why not SELECT * FROM NAMED <g2> { ... } ?
Andy Seaborne: Curious: Why not SELECT * FROM NAMED <g2> { ... } ? ←
14:52:37 <chimezie> ... be explicit about forming graph via entailment and referring to it
... be explicit about forming graph via entailment and referring to it ←
14:52:53 <kasei> AndyS, the whole point was my concern about impls that dereference g1 to construct the dataset
Gregory Williams: AndyS, the whole point was my concern about impls that dereference g1 to construct the dataset ←
14:52:57 <bglimm> I also wonder that AndyS
Birte Glimm: I also wonder that AndyS ←
14:53:27 <AxelPolleres> this looks like a new feature, which we haven't got on board....
Axel Polleres: this looks like a new feature, which we haven't got on board.... ←
14:53:36 <chimezie> Ivan: it is a new SPARQl property, but the issue raised by Sandro can be addressed this way
Ivan Herman: it is a new SPARQl property, but the issue raised by Sandro can be addressed this way ←
14:53:57 <chimezie> ... either there in query or in service description
... either there in query or in service description ←
14:53:59 <AndyS> kasei, sure - they get the (base) triples - impl can choose to understand the consequences or not.
Andy Seaborne: kasei, sure - they get the (base) triples - impl can choose to understand the consequences or not. ←
14:54:18 <kasei> q+
Gregory Williams: q+ ←
14:54:52 <chimezie> kasei: putting it in SD won't always be enough for impl that dereference graphs to construct dataset
Gregory Williams: putting it in SD won't always be enough for impl that dereference graphs to construct dataset ←
14:55:18 <chimezie> Sandro: so don't support FROM NAMED entailment or add a keyword
Sandro Hawke: so don't support FROM NAMED entailment or add a keyword ←
14:56:11 <kasei> I very much disagree with this "lying" notion
Gregory Williams: I very much disagree with this "lying" notion ←
14:56:18 <LeeF> Does anyone implement anything like this?
Lee Feigenbaum: Does anyone implement anything like this? ←
14:56:31 <LeeF> Or, rather, who implements things like this?
Lee Feigenbaum: Or, rather, who implements things like this? ←
14:56:45 <kasei> LeeF, I deref URIs for datasets, and have experimental RDFS stuff that would run afoul of this
Gregory Williams: LeeF, I deref URIs for datasets, and have experimental RDFS stuff that would run afoul of this ←
14:56:51 <bglimm> As I understood Souri, Oracle is doing that
Birte Glimm: As I understood Souri, Oracle is doing that ←
14:57:10 <chimezie> Axel: need to follow up on email, perhaps
Axel Polleres: need to follow up on email, perhaps ←
14:57:12 <AndyS> "like" via different names in dataset but not via query syntax. Expected SD to describe the endpoint characteristics.
Andy Seaborne: "like" via different names in dataset but not via query syntax. Expected SD to describe the endpoint characteristics. ←
14:57:26 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
14:57:26 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
14:57:54 <Souri> Yes, we do allow user to specify entailment regime(s) in the query
Souripriya Das: Yes, we do allow user to specify entailment regime(s) in the query ←
14:58:15 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: sandro to summarize the issue and mail his proposal to solve it
ACTION: sandro to summarize the issue and mail his proposal to solve it ←
14:58:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-281 - Summarize the issue and mail his proposal to solve it [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-07-27].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-281 - Summarize the issue and mail his proposal to solve it [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-07-27]. ←
14:58:35 <sandro> ACTION: sandro to take to e-mail the proposal, SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> ENTAILS(e1) { ?x subclass ?y } }
ACTION: sandro to take to e-mail the proposal, SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> ENTAILS(e1) { ?x subclass ?y } } ←
14:58:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-282 - Take to e-mail the proposal, SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> ENTAILS(e1) { ?x subclass ?y } } [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-07-27].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-282 - Take to e-mail the proposal, SELECT * FROM NAMED <g1> WHERE { GRAPH <g2> ENTAILS(e1) { ?x subclass ?y } } [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-07-27]. ←
14:58:43 <kasei> briefly wanted to mention that I have a draft response to PA-2 at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:PA-2
Gregory Williams: briefly wanted to mention that I have a draft response to PA-2 at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:PA-2 ←
14:59:05 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
Zakim, mute me ←
14:59:05 <Zakim> Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted ←
14:59:14 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to mail a list of open issues and perceived status
ACTION: axel to mail a list of open issues and perceived status ←
14:59:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-283 - Mail a list of open issues and perceived status [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-07-27].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-283 - Mail a list of open issues and perceived status [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-07-27]. ←
14:59:32 <Zakim> -MattPerry
Zakim IRC Bot: -MattPerry ←
14:59:37 <bglimm> bye
Birte Glimm: bye ←
14:59:37 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
14:59:39 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
Zakim IRC Bot: -Chimezie_Ogbuji ←
14:59:40 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
14:59:41 <NicholasH> bye!
Nicholas Humfrey: bye! ←
14:59:42 <Zakim> -Lee_Feigenbaum
Zakim IRC Bot: -Lee_Feigenbaum ←
14:59:43 <AxelPolleres> adjourned
Axel Polleres: adjourned ←
14:59:43 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
14:59:44 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby ←
14:59:50 <Zakim> -kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei ←
14:59:54 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
14:59:55 <ivan> zakim, drop me
Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me ←
14:59:55 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected ←
14:59:56 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
15:00:09 <Zakim> -pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon ←
15:00:16 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
Axel Polleres: rrsagent, make records public ←
15:01:02 <kasei> current grammar doesn't allow selecing * along with other vars/expressions, right?
Gregory Williams: current grammar doesn't allow selecing * along with other vars/expressions, right? ←
15:01:13 <AndyS> right :-)
Andy Seaborne: right :-) ←
15:01:34 <kasei> ok. maybe I'll fix the test cases that do that, then...
Gregory Williams: ok. maybe I'll fix the test cases that do that, then... ←
15:01:43 <AndyS> Silly grammar.
Andy Seaborne: Silly grammar. ←
15:01:44 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: -AxelPolleres ←
15:01:45 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended ←
15:01:46 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.603.897.aaaa, Sandro, kasei, pgearon, +33.4.92.38.aabb, +1.603.897.aacc, Lee_Feigenbaum, MattPerry, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, Ivan, bglimm, AndyS,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.603.897.aaaa, Sandro, kasei, pgearon, +33.4.92.38.aabb, +1.603.897.aacc, Lee_Feigenbaum, MattPerry, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, Ivan, bglimm, AndyS, ←
15:01:48 <Zakim> ... +1.603.897.aaee, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Souri, NicholasH
Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.603.897.aaee, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Souri, NicholasH ←
15:01:59 <kasei> silly? is it going to change?
Gregory Williams: silly? is it going to change? ←
15:02:27 <AndyS> I proposed such a change. Steve is against it.
Andy Seaborne: I proposed such a change. Steve is against it. ←
15:02:52 <kasei> ah
Gregory Williams: ah ←
15:03:42 <kasei> probably shouldn't change anything just yet, then.
Gregory Williams: probably shouldn't change anything just yet, then. ←
15:04:06 <AndyS> I confess I don't see the problem as it's SQL rel alg feature commonly called "extend".
Andy Seaborne: I confess I don't see the problem as it's SQL rel alg feature commonly called "extend". ←
15:04:57 <AndyS> rel alg "rename" does not (strictly) take an expression.
Andy Seaborne: rel alg "rename" does not (strictly) take an expression. ←
15:21:20 <SteveH_> sorry, I wasn't able to dial in, some message about no lines free
(No events recorded for 16 minutes)
Steve Harris: sorry, I wasn't able to dial in, some message about no lines free ←
15:32:06 <NicholasH> SteveH_: I had the same problem and had to use US number again
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Steve Harris: I had the same problem and had to use US number again [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
15:41:14 <SteveH_> I as on my mobile, so didn't want an intl call on the bill
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Steve Harris: I as on my mobile, so didn't want an intl call on the bill ←
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