edit

SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 04 May 2010

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-05-04
Seen
Andy Seaborne, Axel Polleres, Birte Glimm, Chimezie Ogbuji, David Charboneau, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gregory Williams, Ivan Herman, Lee Feigenbaum, Matthew Perry, Olivier Corby, Orri Erling, Paula Gearon, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris
Regrets
Axel Polleres, Steve Harris, David Charboneau, Souripriya Das, Sandro Hawke
Chair
Lee Feigenbaum
Scribe
Ivan Herman
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-27 link
  2. Close ISSUE-54 based on the current text for sd:propertyFeature in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#id0x2c8fdce0, noting consensus in mailing list thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0487.html link
Topics
13:48:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/04-sparql-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/04-sparql-irc

13:48:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

13:48:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 77277

13:48:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

13:48:50 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be SPARQL

13:48:50 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:48:50 <trackbot> Date: 04 May 2010
13:48:51 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

13:48:52 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
13:48:57 <LeeF> Scribenick: ivan

(Scribe set to Ivan Herman)

13:49:09 <LeeF> Regrets: AxelPolleres, SteveH, dcharboneau2
13:49:30 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-05-04
13:58:05 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

13:58:12 <Zakim> +pgearon

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon

13:58:56 <Zakim> +kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei

13:59:20 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum

Zakim IRC Bot: +Lee_Feigenbaum

13:59:49 <Zakim> +MattPerry

Zakim IRC Bot: +MattPerry

14:00:00 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:00:02 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:00:08 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:00:14 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

14:00:20 <AndyS> zakim, ??P14 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P14 is me

14:00:20 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

14:02:05 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's on the phone?

14:02:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgearon, kasei, Lee_Feigenbaum, MattPerry, Ivan, AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgearon, kasei, Lee_Feigenbaum, MattPerry, Ivan, AndyS

14:03:19 <ivan> scribenick:ivan
14:03:28 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

14:03:34 <LeeF> minutes from last week: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-27

Lee Feigenbaum: minutes from last week: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-27

14:03:59 <LeeF> zakim, ??P27 is Orri

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, ??P27 is Orri

14:03:59 <Zakim> +Orri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Orri; got it

14:05:28 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby

14:06:27 <LeeF> Regrets: Axel, Steve, dcharboneau, Souri, Sandro
14:06:48 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-27

PROPOSED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-27

14:06:51 <ivan> LeeF: anybody concerns with minutes of last week?

Lee Feigenbaum: anybody concerns with minutes of last week?

14:06:55 <ivan> ... 1

... 1

14:06:57 <ivan> .... 2

.... 2

14:07:00 <ivan> .... 3

.... 3

14:07:04 <ivan> .... 4

.... 4

14:07:21 <ivan> ... discussions about variables, queries, next round of documents...

... discussions about variables, queries, next round of documents...

14:07:31 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-27

RESOLVED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-27

14:07:41 <LeeF> Next meeting: 2010-05-11 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Sandro)

Lee Feigenbaum: Next meeting: 2010-05-11 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Sandro)

14:07:45 <Zakim> +chimezie

Zakim IRC Bot: +chimezie

14:07:56 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me

Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, mute me

14:07:56 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted

14:08:24 <ivan> Lee: other admin issues

Lee Feigenbaum: other admin issues

14:08:32 <ivan> ... couple of comments, they are taken care of

... couple of comments, they are taken care of

14:08:35 <ivan> ... same for actions

... same for actions

14:08:43 <ivan> ... any questions on those?

... any questions on those?

14:08:51 <ivan> (no reply from anybody...)

(no reply from anybody...)

14:09:13 <ivan> Other wgs: RDB2RDF WG finalizing UCR document

Other wgs: RDB2RDF WG finalizing UCR document

14:09:24 <ivan> eGov- anybody has questions?

eGov- anybody has questions?

14:09:26 <ivan> q+

q+

14:09:30 <LeeF> ack ivan

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivan

14:10:34 <ivan> topic: update on sparql update (sic!)

1. update on sparql update (sic!)

14:10:53 <ivan> Lee: seeking immediate feedback

Lee Feigenbaum: seeking immediate feedback

14:11:01 <ivan> ... or get people to look online

... or get people to look at offline

14:11:16 <ivan> s/online/at offline/
14:12:30 <LeeF> topic: Recent additions/updates to SPARQL Update

2. Recent additions/updates to SPARQL Update

14:12:55 <ivan> LeeF: issue is the update model

Lee Feigenbaum: issue is the update model

14:13:01 <ivan> ... what the underlying formalism is

... what the underlying formalism is

14:14:07 <kasei> 61

Gregory Williams: 61

14:14:22 <kasei> i think 61#

Gregory Williams: i think 61#

14:14:49 <kasei> 60# i think

Gregory Williams: 60# i think

14:15:00 <kasei> 1 and 0, on and off if I remember right.

Gregory Williams: 1 and 0, on and off if I remember right.

14:15:47 <ivan> ... are those the significant issues to the spec?

... are those the significant issues to the spec?

14:16:30 <LeeF> update model is at: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/Overview.xml#t32

Lee Feigenbaum: update model is at: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/Overview.xml#t32

14:16:37 <ivan> pgearon: the other part was the conversation we had on how we should datasets in insert and delete statements

Paula Gearon: the other part was the conversation we had on how we should datasets in insert and delete statements

14:16:53 <ivan> ... the keywords were not really appropriate for this

... the keywords were not really appropriate for this

14:16:59 <ivan> ... we wanted to avoid ambiguity

... we wanted to avoid ambiguity

14:17:07 <LeeF> (keywords FROM and FROM NAMED are confusing with DELETE)

Lee Feigenbaum: (keywords FROM and FROM NAMED are confusing with DELETE)

14:17:10 <ivan> ... at the same time nobody wanted to use new keywords

... at the same time nobody wanted to use new keywords

14:17:36 <ivan> ... USING and USING NAMES came up as a semi-consensus suggestion, I put it in the document

... USING and USING NAMES came up as a semi-consensus suggestion, I put it in the document

14:18:07 <ivan> LeeF: and the update model, how final do you think it is, do you expect to go deeper?

Lee Feigenbaum: and the update model, how final do you think it is, do you expect to go deeper?

14:18:29 <ivan> pgearon: if we go further we might end up enforcing things on implementations and turn them invalid

Paula Gearon: if we go further we might end up enforcing things on implementations and turn them invalid

14:18:44 <ivan> ... i do not see that coming any time soon, but it is a danger

... i do not see that coming any time soon, but it is a danger

14:18:55 <ivan> ... maybe a little more than what we have now is fine, but not much

... maybe a little more than what we have now is fine, but not much

14:19:12 <ivan> ... so long as it is internally consistent the level of details we have is on the right track

... so long as it is internally consistent the level of details we have is on the right track

14:19:23 <ivan> ... i mostly copied the points that were on the wiki

... i mostly copied the points that were on the wiki

14:19:39 <AndyS> If the impls have different outcomes on the same spec, surely the spec is not accurate enough.

Andy Seaborne: If the impls have different outcomes on the same spec, surely the spec is not accurate enough.

14:19:42 <ivan> (discussions whether that page was done by lee, he does not believe that...)

(discussions whether that page was done by lee, he does not believe that...)

14:20:11 <ivan> LeeF: to be clear on what has been put in

Lee Feigenbaum: to be clear on what has been put in

14:20:28 <Zakim> -Orri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Orri

14:20:29 <ivan> ... using and using names are synonymous with from and from names, but with different keywords?

... using and using names are synonymous with from and from names, but with different keywords?

14:20:32 <ivan> pgearon: yes

Paula Gearon: yes

14:20:55 <LeeF> """ If a USING clause appears, then this will override any effect that WITH may have on the WHERE clause, and only the WHERE clause."""

Lee Feigenbaum: """ If a USING clause appears, then this will override any effect that WITH may have on the WHERE clause, and only the WHERE clause."""

14:21:59 <ivan> LeeF: i guess of this agenda topic was to point out this issue

Lee Feigenbaum: i guess of this agenda topic was to point out this issue

14:22:02 <ivan> ... and changes

... and changes

14:22:13 <ivan> ... we can close the corresponding issue

... we can close the corresponding issue

14:22:24 <ivan> ... we may have people review the document to see if this is the final design

... we may have people review the document to see if this is the final design

14:22:27 <LeeF> trackbot, close ACTION-206

Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ACTION-206

14:22:27 <trackbot> ACTION-206 Coordinate with Paul, Steve, and Andy to form a coherent proposal re: datasets, FROM, FROM NAMED, WITH, default-graph-uri, and named-graph-uri closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-206 Coordinate with Paul, Steve, and Andy to form a coherent proposal re: datasets, FROM, FROM NAMED, WITH, default-graph-uri, and named-graph-uri closed

14:22:34 <AndyS> Why doesn't USING apply to DELETE template WHERE pattern and similarly INSERT on their own?

Andy Seaborne: Why doesn't USING apply to DELETE template WHERE pattern and similarly INSERT on their own?

14:22:43 <ivan> LeeF: anybody any questions?

Lee Feigenbaum: anybody any questions?

14:22:57 <ivan> ... otherwise people should take a look at them and comment

... otherwise people should take a look at them and comment

14:23:37 <LeeF> pgearon: in answer to Andy, it should apply there as well, oversight

Paula Gearon: in answer to Andy, it should apply there as well, oversight [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:23:38 <ivan> pgearon: because I was not thorough enough:-( and I will have to put in the right words...

Paula Gearon: because I was not thorough enough:-( and I will have to put in the right words...

14:24:32 <ivan> AndyS: i was more worried when you were talk about the update model to avoid implementations to change... (scribe lost)

Andy Seaborne: i was more worried when you were talk about the update model to avoid implementations to change... (scribe lost)

14:25:00 <ivan> pgearon: I am not really sure on how much more details are required

Paula Gearon: I am not really sure on how much more details are required

14:25:16 <ivan> ... eg, in general, do you have any formalism on how update work

... eg, in general, do you have any formalism on how update work

14:25:29 <ivan> AndyS: no, because I will have to change my implementation on what the spec says:-)

Andy Seaborne: no, because I will have to change my implementation on what the spec says:-)

14:25:50 <ivan> pgearon: what we have now are more general guidelines rather than being formal

Paula Gearon: what we have now are more general guidelines rather than being formal

14:26:11 <ivan> LeeF: my gut feeling is that we will need something more detailed, but I am not sure how much

Lee Feigenbaum: my gut feeling is that we will need something more detailed, but I am not sure how much

14:26:37 <ivan> ... when we begin to collect test cases we will know more by following the spec in more details

... when we begin to collect test cases we will know more by following the spec in more details

14:26:43 <ivan> ... we will know then if we have a good enough model

... we will know then if we have a good enough model

14:27:02 <ivan> ... we will have to rely on the query algebra, but we will not know until we are at the test cases

... we will have to rely on the query algebra, but we will not know until we are at the test cases

14:27:28 <ivan> pgearon: i have a limited experience for this type of formalism, I would need help and I am not the person stipulating what is required

Paula Gearon: i have a limited experience for this type of formalism, I would need help and I am not the person stipulating what is required

14:27:52 <ivan> LeeF: we will have to figure what we need and who is the right person to help with it

Lee Feigenbaum: we will have to figure what we need and who is the right person to help with it

14:28:11 <ivan> LeeF: is there anything else of things that are missing

Lee Feigenbaum: is there anything else of things that are missing

14:28:30 <ivan> pgearon: return cases for operations, most of them are success or failure, but, eg, you can have a partial load

Paula Gearon: return cases for operations, most of them are success or failure, but, eg, you can have a partial load

14:28:34 <ivan> LeeF: when?

Lee Feigenbaum: when?

14:28:42 <ivan> pgearon: should be done by tomorrow night

Paula Gearon: should be done by tomorrow night

14:28:50 <ivan> LeeF: did we pick reviewers last week?

Lee Feigenbaum: did we pick reviewers last week?

14:28:56 <kasei> don't think so

Gregory Williams: don't think so

14:28:58 <ivan> (stunned silence)

(stunned silence)

14:29:09 <ivan> (or everybody is ducking)

(or everybody is ducking)

14:29:28 <ivan> LeeF: we will need at least one reviewer for all documents

Lee Feigenbaum: we will need at least one reviewer for all documents

14:29:39 <ivan> ... this is to catch issues

... this is to catch issues

14:29:50 <ivan> ... and they are in a reasonable stage for publication

... and they are in a reasonable stage for publication

14:30:00 <ivan> LeeF: anybody volunteers to review sparql update

Lee Feigenbaum: anybody volunteers to review sparql update

14:30:12 <ivan> LeeF: I will volounteer

Lee Feigenbaum: I will volounteer

14:30:17 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to review SPARQL Update once pgearon gives the go ahead

ACTION: LeeF to review SPARQL Update once pgearon gives the go ahead

14:30:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-229 - Review SPARQL Update once pgearon gives the go ahead [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-05-11].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-229 - Review SPARQL Update once pgearon gives the go ahead [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-05-11].

14:30:48 <ivan> LeeF: anybody else reviewing update?

Lee Feigenbaum: anybody else reviewing update?

14:31:36 <ivan> AndyS: for the grammar for publication; there is one grammar that is shared for update and query

Andy Seaborne: for the grammar for publication; there is one grammar that is shared for update and query

14:31:43 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/sparql-grammar-11.html

Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/sparql-grammar-11.html

14:31:48 <ivan> LeeF: have we not published the combined grammar yet?

Lee Feigenbaum: have we not published the combined grammar yet?

14:31:55 <ivan> AndyS: the update stuff is not done yet

Andy Seaborne: the update stuff is not done yet

14:32:20 <ivan> LeeF: do we need to wrap it into a document structure with a proper URI in TR space?

Lee Feigenbaum: do we need to wrap it into a document structure with a proper URI in TR space?

14:32:34 <ivan> ... what is the intention for publishing it

... what is the intention for publishing it

14:32:50 <ivan> AndyS: the easy way is to put into, say, the query document and make it clear that it is also for update

Andy Seaborne: the easy way is to put into, say, the query document and make it clear that it is also for update

14:33:00 <ivan> ... pgearon, would that work for you?

... pgearon, would that work for you?

14:33:19 <ivan> pgearon: yes

Paula Gearon: yes

14:33:40 <ivan> LeeF: are there outstanding question on the list to add this to the document?

Lee Feigenbaum: are there outstanding question on the list to add this to the document?

14:33:52 <ivan> AndyS: there are couple issues open yet

Andy Seaborne: there are couple issues open yet

14:33:59 <ivan> LeeF: in the update syntax thread

Lee Feigenbaum: in the update syntax thread

14:34:16 <ivan> ... let us resolve the syntax issues next week

... let us resolve the syntax issues next week

14:34:29 <ivan> topic: federated queries

3. federated queries

14:34:40 <LeeF> zakim, dial ericP-mobile

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, dial ericP-mobile

14:34:40 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF; the call is being made

14:34:41 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

14:35:33 <LeeF> zakim, drop ericp

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, drop ericp

14:35:33 <Zakim> EricP is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: EricP is being disconnected

14:35:35 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

14:35:58 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/fed/service

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/fed/service

14:36:23 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/fed/service#bindings

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/fed/service#bindings

14:36:28 <ivan> LeeF: the issues was the binding stuff

Lee Feigenbaum: the issues was the binding stuff

14:36:39 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby

14:36:59 <ivan> ... short summary is that binding specifies a result set that should be used to constraint the answers to a federated query piece

... short summary is that binding specifies a result set that should be used to constraint the answers to a federated query piece

14:37:24 <ivan> ... if you have two service nodes, it binds the ones coming from that clause and send that to another call

... if you have two service nodes, it binds the ones coming from that clause and send that to another call

14:37:34 <ivan> ... that is the general idea behind bindings

... that is the general idea behind bindings

14:37:41 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby

14:37:58 <ivan> ... andy, most of the bindings  from arq, does it include bindings

... andy, most of the bindings from arq, does it include bindings

14:38:08 <ivan> AndyS: no, that comes from eric's system

Andy Seaborne: no, that comes from eric's system

14:38:16 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/fed/service#update

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/fed/service#update

14:38:38 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

14:38:47 <ivan> LeeF: the other thing is section 3.1 where you can do the same thing for an insert/delete statement as a way to have a compact syntax for ground triples

Lee Feigenbaum: the other thing is section 3.1 where you can do the same thing for an insert/delete statement as a way to have a compact syntax for ground triples

14:39:05 <LeeF> ack AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS

14:39:05 <AndyS> q-

Andy Seaborne: q-

14:39:06 <ivan> ... this was an area where we may not have concensus

... this was an area where we may not have concensus

14:39:11 <ivan> q+

q+

14:39:28 <LeeF> ack ivan

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivan

14:39:31 <ivan> ivan: why is that different than having select in select?

Ivan Herman: why is that different than having select in select?

14:39:58 <kasei> i think BINDINGS is important, but hesitant about its use with UPDATE

Gregory Williams: i think BINDINGS is important, but hesitant about its use with UPDATE

14:40:13 <ivan> LeeF: I am not sure I understand

Lee Feigenbaum: I am not sure I understand

14:40:21 <ivan> ivan: then I may not understand

Ivan Herman: then I may not understand

14:40:42 <kasei> I think you could do this with subselects, but it would be nasty: { SELECT 1 AS ?id {} } UNION { SELECT 2 AS ?id {} }

Gregory Williams: I think you could do this with subselects, but it would be nasty: { SELECT 1 AS ?id {} } UNION { SELECT 2 AS ?id {} }

14:40:56 <ivan> LeeF: it specifies a result set to join with a query

Lee Feigenbaum: it specifies a result set to join with a query

14:41:05 <AndyS> I'm hestitate about update - seems to mean update needs changing as well and overlaps with INSERT DATA etc.

Andy Seaborne: I'm hestitate about update - seems to mean update needs changing as well and overlaps with INSERT DATA etc.

14:41:20 <ivan> LeeF: there is an hesitation about using this with update

Lee Feigenbaum: there is an hesitation about using this with update

14:41:42 <pgearon> +q

Paula Gearon: +q

14:41:46 <LeeF> ack pgearon

Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon

14:41:47 <ivan> ... AndyS also points out that interferes with insert/delete

... AndyS also points out that interferes with insert/delete

14:42:00 <ivan> pgearon: i would mention a use case for binding

Paula Gearon: i would mention a use case for binding

14:42:15 <AndyS> q+ to ask about BINDING position (after update discussion)

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about BINDING position (after update discussion)

14:42:18 <kasei> also, BINDINGS with UPDATE probably doesn't belong in the fed document (SERVICE isn't defined specifically for UPDATE, right?)

Gregory Williams: also, BINDINGS with UPDATE probably doesn't belong in the fed document (SERVICE isn't defined specifically for UPDATE, right?)

14:42:51 <ivan> ... if you have a query for federation, you may execute part of the query on one host and use the result of that you can go to another place with some of the variables already bound, and that can dramatically reduce time

... if you have a query for federation, you may execute part of the query on one host and use the result of that you can go to another place with some of the variables already bound, and that can dramatically reduce time

14:43:12 <ivan> ... so having binding has a real use case where can have dramatic effects

... so having binding has a real use case where can have dramatic effects

14:43:21 <ivan> ... in terms of insert/delete I do not see that too much

... in terms of insert/delete I do not see that too much

14:43:34 <AndyS> kasei - good point - sees to be about the input to the endpoint, not the federating query engine.

Andy Seaborne: kasei - good point - sees to be about the input to the endpoint, not the federating query engine.

14:43:41 <kasei> in fact, unless BINDINGS is defined as normative in the query doc, it puts a burden on FED extensions to send off speculative queries first but require support for falling back to a non-BINDINGS-enhanced query.

Gregory Williams: in fact, unless BINDINGS is defined as normative in the query doc, it puts a burden on FED extensions to send off speculative queries first but require support for falling back to a non-BINDINGS-enhanced query.

14:43:43 <ivan> ... we can emulate bindings with subselects and unions and it is messy

... we can emulate bindings with subselects and unions and it is messy

14:44:13 <ivan> ... this particular syntax is useful, but only for select

... this particular syntax is useful, but only for select

14:44:29 <LeeF> ack AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS

14:44:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about BINDING position (after update discussion)

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about BINDING position (after update discussion)

14:44:53 <ivan> AndyS: minor point, i have binding in the grammar but after all clauses

Andy Seaborne: minor point, i have binding in the grammar but after all clauses

14:45:20 <ivan> ... we had a discussion on the mailing list but it is not yet in the document

... we had a discussion on the mailing list but it is not yet in the document

14:45:36 <ivan> ... if everybody on the call has a consensus, then I can catch eric on that

... if everybody on the call has a consensus, then I can catch eric on that

14:45:48 <ivan> ... i will ask him to just make it so

... i will ask him to just make it so

14:46:16 <kasei> q+ to ask about moving BINDINGS to the query document

Gregory Williams: q+ to ask about moving BINDINGS to the query document

14:46:30 <LeeF> ack kasei

Lee Feigenbaum: ack kasei

14:46:30 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to ask about moving BINDINGS to the query document

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei, you wanted to ask about moving BINDINGS to the query document

14:46:57 <ivan> kasei: i believe that the federated is not required for implementations

Gregory Williams: i believe that the federated is not required for implementations

14:47:12 <ivan> ... but the service keyword is provided locally with the endpoint you are talking to

... but the service keyword is provided locally with the endpoint you are talking to

14:47:23 <ivan> ... the use of binding should be on the other endpoint

... the use of binding should be on the other endpoint

14:47:31 <ivan> ... it should be more on the query side of things

... it should be more on the query side of things

14:48:48 <pgearon> can we say that service descriptions are normative?

Paula Gearon: can we say that service descriptions are normative?

14:49:09 <ivan> LeeF: what if the bindings belong to the query document

Lee Feigenbaum: what if the bindings belong to the query document

14:49:15 <kasei> kasei: unless we require BINDINGS support for all query implementations, federated systems will likely have to send off speculative queries but may have to drop back to queries not using BINDINGS.

Gregory Williams: unless we require BINDINGS support for all query implementations, federated systems will likely have to send off speculative queries but may have to drop back to queries not using BINDINGS. [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Williams ]

14:49:44 <ivan> ... are we ok requiring binding for all conformant sparql 1.1 implementations

... are we ok requiring binding for all conformant sparql 1.1 implementations

14:49:45 <kasei> kasei: either way, this is probably something that should go in the service description.

Gregory Williams: either way, this is probably something that should go in the service description. [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Williams ]

14:50:17 <kasei> Zakim, mute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, mute me

14:50:17 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted

14:50:32 <ivan> LeeF: what do other people think?

Lee Feigenbaum: what do other people think?

14:50:42 <ivan> (stunned silence, they do not think anything)

(stunned silence, they do not think anything)

14:51:30 <ivan> LeeF: I am inclined to... what am I inclined to do? I am inclined to peek eric's brain...

Lee Feigenbaum: I am inclined to... what am I inclined to do? I am inclined to peek into eric's brain...

14:51:36 <kasei> ... hesitantly think it should also be required.

Gregory Williams: ... hesitantly think it should also be required.

14:51:52 <ivan> s/peek/peek into/
14:52:17 <LeeF> topic: ISSUE-54

4. ISSUE-54

14:52:33 <LeeF> mailing list thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0487.html

Lee Feigenbaum: mailing list thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0487.html

14:52:35 <ivan> LeeF: putting property functions into service descriptions

Lee Feigenbaum: putting property functions into service descriptions

14:52:48 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

14:52:48 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made

14:52:50 <ivan> ... this includes a proposed text

... this includes a proposed text

14:52:50 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

14:53:25 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

14:53:38 <ivan> ... AndyS proposed text how to include that into the description

... AndyS proposed text how to include that into the description

14:53:49 <ivan> ... steve and I indicated that we were happy with the proposed text

... steve and I indicated that we were happy with the proposed text

14:53:49 <kasei> for some reason I thought we had already resolved this issue...

Gregory Williams: for some reason I thought we had already resolved this issue...

14:54:01 <kasei> (already in the document)

Gregory Williams: (already in the document)

14:54:07 <ivan> ... I would propose to accept this and add it to the document

... I would propose to accept this and add it to the document

14:54:25 <ivan> ... but it seems that greg is faster than anybody else (or travels in time) and has already done it

... but it seems that greg is faster than anybody else (or travels in time) and has already done it

14:54:33 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#id0x2c8fdce0

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#id0x2c8fdce0

14:54:49 <LeeF> """

Lee Feigenbaum: """

14:54:51 <LeeF> 3.4.10 sd:propertyFeature

Lee Feigenbaum: 3.4.10 sd:propertyFeature

14:54:51 <LeeF> Releates an instance of sd:Service to a resource representing an implemented feature to the SPARQL Query or Update language that is accessed by using the named property.

Lee Feigenbaum: Releates an instance of sd:Service to a resource representing an implemented feature to the SPARQL Query or Update language that is accessed by using the named property.

14:54:51 <LeeF> sd:propertyFeature is an rdfs:subPropertyOf sd:feature. The rdfs:domain of sd:propertyFeature is sd:Service.

Souripriya Das: propertyFeature is an rdfs:subPropertyOf sd:feature. The rdfs:domain of sd:propertyFeature is sd:Service. [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:54:51 <kasei> sd:propertyFeature

Souripriya Das: propertyFeature [ Scribe Assist by Gregory Williams ]

14:54:52 <LeeF> """

Lee Feigenbaum: """

14:55:15 <kasei> Zakim, mute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, mute me

14:55:15 <Zakim> kasei was already muted, kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei was already muted, kasei

14:55:28 <ivan> LeeF: I propose to close this issue

Lee Feigenbaum: I propose to close this issue

14:55:57 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-54 based on the current text for sd:propertyFeature in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#id0x2c8fdce0, noting consensus in mailing list thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0487.html

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-54 based on the current text for sd:propertyFeature in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#id0x2c8fdce0, noting consensus in mailing list thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0487.html

14:56:10 <ivan> +1

+1

14:56:19 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

14:56:21 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-54 based on the current text for sd:propertyFeature in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#id0x2c8fdce0, noting consensus in mailing list thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0487.html

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-54 based on the current text for sd:propertyFeature in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#id0x2c8fdce0, noting consensus in mailing list thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0487.html

14:56:31 <LeeF> trackbot, close ISSUE-54

Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, close ISSUE-54

14:56:31 <trackbot> ISSUE-54 Do we need (descriptions of) property functions in SD? Is this in scope for us? closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-54 Do we need (descriptions of) property functions in SD? Is this in scope for us? closed

14:56:38 <LeeF>  ISSUE-54: RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-54 based on the current text for sd:propertyFeature in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#id0x2c8fdce0, noting consensus in mailing list thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0487.html

Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-54: RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-54 based on the current text for sd:propertyFeature in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#id0x2c8fdce0, noting consensus in mailing list thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0487.html

14:56:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-54 Do we need (descriptions of) property functions in SD? Is this in scope for us? notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-54 Do we need (descriptions of) property functions in SD? Is this in scope for us? notes added

14:56:59 <ivan> topic: check in our document for readiness

5. check in our document for readiness

14:57:21 <ivan> LeeF: we ask our editors to get the documents into reviewable stage and move to publication asap

Lee Feigenbaum: we ask our editors to get the documents into reviewable stage and move to publication asap

14:57:55 <ivan> .... andy: summary on query?

.... andy: summary on query?

14:58:37 <ivan> AndyS: i added some more stuff on negation, minus and not exist, and added examples for minus, steve added stuff on aggregates (some formatting problems)

Andy Seaborne: i added some more stuff on negation, minus and not exist, and added examples for minus, steve added stuff on aggregates (some formatting problems)

14:59:35 <ivan> LeeF: it sounds that we can have somebody to review now

Lee Feigenbaum: it sounds that we can have somebody to review now

14:59:46 <MattPerry> i can review it

Matthew Perry: i can review it

14:59:50 <ivan> AndyS: yes, it is messy, but it is only a working draft, so that should fine

Andy Seaborne: yes, it is messy, but it is only a working draft, so that should fine

15:00:03 <LeeF> ACTION: MattPerry to review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness

ACTION: MattPerry to review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness

15:00:03 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - MattPerry

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - MattPerry

15:00:08 <LeeF> ACTION: Matt to review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness

ACTION: Matt to review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness

15:00:08 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Matt

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - Matt

15:00:13 <LeeF> ACTION: Matthew to review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness

ACTION: Matthew to review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness

15:00:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-230 - Review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness [on Matthew Perry - due 2010-05-11].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-230 - Review SPARQL Query document for issues, concerns, praise, and publication-readiness [on Matthew Perry - due 2010-05-11].

15:00:31 <ivan> LeeF: property path document?

Lee Feigenbaum: property path document?

15:01:06 <ivan> AndyS: I have not done any work since last publication

Andy Seaborne: I have not done any work since last publication

15:01:20 <ivan> ... duplicates and negated property paths are to be added

... duplicates and negated property paths are to be added

15:01:32 <ivan> LeeF: we are not required to publish every document for a heartbeat, so that is fine

Lee Feigenbaum: we are not required to publish every document for a heartbeat, so that is fine

15:01:34 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, unmute me

15:01:34 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should no longer be muted

15:01:40 <ivan> LeeF: Greg, descriptions

Lee Feigenbaum: Greg, descriptions

15:02:02 <ivan> kasei: I wanted to have a link to the serialization format, ivan just did that, will do it

Gregory Williams: I wanted to have a link to the serialization format, ivan just did that, will do it

15:02:22 <ivan> ... the naming of named graphs in datasets is still missing

... the naming of named graphs in datasets is still missing

15:02:38 <ivan> ... I would like to hear sandro's response on andy's examples, but they look good

... I would like to hear sandro's response on andy's examples, but they look good

15:02:45 <ivan> ... the document is in a good shape

... the document is in a good shape

15:03:03 <ivan> ... we can sort out the naming issue for the next version, it is to go out today

... we can sort out the naming issue for the next version, it is to go out today

15:03:08 <ivan> LeeF: any reviewer?

Lee Feigenbaum: any reviewer?

15:03:27 <kasei> *crickets*

Gregory Williams: *crickets*

15:03:32 <ivan> (deep, deep silence)

(deep, deep silence)

15:03:40 <kasei> Zakim, mute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, mute me

15:03:49 <ivan> LeeF: I will try to find somebody on the mailing list

Lee Feigenbaum: I will try to find somebody on the mailing list

15:03:51 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted

15:03:51 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to find 1 or more reviewers for the SD document

ACTION: LeeF to find 1 or more reviewers for the SD document

15:03:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-231 - Find 1 or more reviewers for the SD document [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-05-11].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-231 - Find 1 or more reviewers for the SD document [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-05-11].

15:04:41 <kasei> I'd be interested in reviewing fed and property paths whenever they're ready for that.

Gregory Williams: I'd be interested in reviewing fed and property paths whenever they're ready for that.

15:05:15 <ivan> LeeF: I have to put up a poll for the negation issue, will do soon

Lee Feigenbaum: I have to put up a poll for the negation issue, will do soon

15:05:19 <ivan> adjurned

adjurned

15:05:24 <Zakim> -chimezie

Zakim IRC Bot: -chimezie

15:05:43 <Zakim> -MattPerry

Zakim IRC Bot: -MattPerry

15:05:44 <ivan> zakim, drop me

zakim, drop me

15:05:44 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected

15:05:44 <MattPerry> bye

Matthew Perry: bye

15:05:44 <Zakim> -Lee_Feigenbaum

Zakim IRC Bot: -Lee_Feigenbaum

15:05:46 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

15:05:48 <Zakim> -pgearon

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon

15:05:50 <Zakim> -kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei

15:05:57 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby

15:06:03 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

15:06:06 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

15:06:07 <Zakim> Attendees were pgearon, kasei, Lee_Feigenbaum, MattPerry, Ivan, AndyS, Orri, OlivierCorby, chimezie, EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were pgearon, kasei, Lee_Feigenbaum, MattPerry, Ivan, AndyS, Orri, OlivierCorby, chimezie, EricP

15:33:06 <bglimm> ups, I missed the call right?

(No events recorded for 26 minutes)

Birte Glimm: ups, I missed the call right?

15:33:18 <bglimm> I am in Canada, so got time zone confused...

Birte Glimm: I am in Canada, so got time zone confused...

15:34:02 <kasei> yup. over for 30 minutes now :\

Gregory Williams: yup. over for 30 minutes now :\

15:34:11 <bglimm> :-(

Birte Glimm: :-(



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