None.
14:57:00 <AndyS> Present: AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei, SteveH, LukeWM, KjetilK, pgearon, dcharbon2, Chimezie_Ogbuji, LeeF, Ivan Herman, john-l, AlexPassant, Orri, Prateek
14:57:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/01-sparql-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/01-sparql-irc ←
14:58:00 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, this will be SPARQL
Axel Polleres: Zakim, this will be SPARQL ←
14:58:01 <Zakim> "SPARQL" matches Team_(sparql-chairs)14:00Z, and SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: "SPARQL" matches Team_(sparql-chairs)14:00Z, and SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, AxelPolleres ←
15:00:36 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:00:36 <Zakim> sorry, AndyS, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AndyS, I don't know what conference this is ←
15:00:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, dcharbon2, Zakim, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, LukeWM, AndyS, ivan, karl, pgearon, KjetilK, sandro, kasei, AlexPassant, trackbot, iv_an_ru
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see chimezie, dcharbon2, Zakim, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, LukeWM, AndyS, ivan, karl, pgearon, KjetilK, sandro, kasei, AlexPassant, trackbot, iv_an_ru ←
15:00:52 <chimezie> Zakim, passcode
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, passcode ←
15:00:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode', chimezie
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'passcode', chimezie ←
15:00:55 <AndyS> zakim, this is SPARQL
Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is SPARQL ←
15:00:55 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM ←
15:01:03 <chimezie> Zakim, what is the passcode?
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, what is the passcode? ←
15:01:03 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie ←
15:01:08 <LukeWM> zakim, Garlik has LukeWM,SteveH
Luke Wilson-Mawer: zakim, Garlik has LukeWM,SteveH ←
15:01:10 <Zakim> sorry, LukeWM, I do not recognize a party named 'Garlik'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, LukeWM, I do not recognize a party named 'Garlik' ←
15:01:18 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:01:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see +03539149aaaa, ??P6, +1.310.729.aabb, ??P8, +1.312.863.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +03539149aaaa, ??P6, +1.310.729.aabb, ??P8, +1.312.863.aacc ←
15:01:20 <Zakim> + +1.919.543.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.919.543.aadd ←
15:01:24 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:01:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see +03539149aaaa, ??P6, +1.310.729.aabb, ??P8, +1.312.863.aacc, +1.919.543.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +03539149aaaa, ??P6, +1.310.729.aabb, ??P8, +1.312.863.aacc, +1.919.543.aadd ←
15:01:26 <kasei> Zakim, aabb is me
Gregory Williams: Zakim, aabb is me ←
15:01:26 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei; got it ←
15:01:27 <AndyS> zakim, ??P6 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P6 is me ←
15:01:27 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:01:38 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, aaaa is me
Axel Polleres: Zakim, aaaa is me ←
15:01:38 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres; got it ←
15:01:39 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
Zakim IRC Bot: +Chimezie_Ogbuji ←
15:01:44 <pgearon> zakim, aacc is me
Paula Gearon: zakim, aacc is me ←
15:01:44 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon; got it ←
15:01:45 <dcharbon2> zakim, +1.919.543 is me
David Charboneau: zakim, +1.919.543 is me ←
15:01:45 <Zakim> +dcharbon2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dcharbon2; got it ←
15:01:52 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:01:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei, ??P8, pgearon, dcharbon2, Chimezie_Ogbuji
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AxelPolleres, AndyS, kasei, ??P8, pgearon, dcharbon2, Chimezie_Ogbuji ←
15:01:55 <SteveH_> what's the code to put your hand up?
Steve Harris: what's the code to put your hand up? ←
15:01:59 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
15:02:05 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??p13 is me
Alexandre Passant: Zakim, ??p13 is me ←
15:02:05 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexPassant; got it ←
15:02:13 <kasei> 41#, I think
Gregory Williams: 41#, I think ←
15:02:28 <SteveH_> Zakim, ??P8 is [Garlik
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P8 is [Garlik ←
15:02:28 <Zakim> +[Garlik; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +[Garlik; got it ←
15:02:32 <SteveH_> Zakim, ??P8 is [Garlik]
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P8 is [Garlik] ←
15:02:32 <Zakim> I already had ??P8 as [Garlik, SteveH_
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P8 as [Garlik, SteveH_ ←
15:02:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:02:48 <SteveH_> Zakim, [Garlik has SteveH_ and LukeWM
Steve Harris: Zakim, [Garlik has SteveH_ and LukeWM ←
15:02:48 <Zakim> +SteveH_, LukeWM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH_, LukeWM; got it ←
15:02:49 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
15:02:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:02:50 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
15:02:51 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has changed the topic to: Agen�da - http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-12-01
Axel Polleres: AxelPolleres has changed the topic to: Agen�da - http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-12-01 ←
15:03:01 <AndyS> zakim, [IPCaller] is Orri
Andy Seaborne: zakim, [IPCaller] is Orri ←
15:03:01 <Zakim> +Orri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Orri; got it ←
15:03:18 <AndyS> Scribe: AndyS
(Scribe set to Andy Seaborne)
15:03:49 <AndyS> Missing -- actions tracking: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/open
Missing -- actions tracking: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/open ←
15:04:22 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
15:04:31 <KjetilK> Zakim, ??P17 is me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, ??P17 is me ←
15:04:31 <Zakim> +KjetilK; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +KjetilK; got it ←
15:04:39 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
15:04:39 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK should now be muted ←
15:05:03 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to put minutes approval on agenda for next time... action need to be added/checked
ACTION: axel to put minutes approval on agenda for next time... action need to be added/checked ←
15:05:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - Put minutes approval on agenda for next time... action need to be added/checked [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-139 - Put minutes approval on agenda for next time... action need to be added/checked [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08]. ←
15:05:27 <AndyS> Next meeting - same time next week.
Next meeting - same time next week. ←
15:05:45 <AndyS> Axel: Scribe wil be Luke.
Axel Polleres: Scribe wil be Luke. ←
15:05:46 <Zakim> + +1.216.445.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.445.aaee ←
15:05:52 <john-l> Zakim: aaee is me
15:05:57 <AxelPolleres> scribe next time: lee (luke on the deck)
Axel Polleres: scribe next time: lee (luke on the deck) ←
15:06:00 <john-l> Zakim, aaee is me
John Clark: Zakim, aaee is me ←
15:06:00 <Zakim> +john-l; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +john-l; got it ←
15:06:16 <AndyS> Topic: Comments handling
15:06:47 <AndyS> Axel: Unclear as to process decided last time.
Axel Polleres: Unclear as to process decided last time. ←
15:07:14 <AndyS> ... ?? Greg to follow up on ldodds / service description comment
... ?? Greg to follow up on ldodds / service description comment ←
15:07:29 <AndyS> kasei: sure
Gregory Williams: sure ←
15:07:38 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to track all mails on comments list on wiki.
ACTION: axel to track all mails on comments list on wiki. ←
15:07:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-140 - Track all mails on comments list on wiki. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-140 - Track all mails on comments list on wiki. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08]. ←
15:07:55 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:BL
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:BL ←
15:08:05 <AndyS> SubTopic: Comment:BL
15:08:27 <AndyS> Axel: any comments on the proposed response?
Axel Polleres: any comments on the proposed response? ←
15:08:40 <AndyS> ... any objections to text on wiki?
... any objections to text on wiki? ←
15:08:55 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to send out response to BL
ACTION: axel to send out response to BL ←
15:08:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-141 - Send out response to BL [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-141 - Send out response to BL [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08]. ←
15:09:43 <AndyS> SubTopic: Toby Inkster comment - email dialogue started
15:10:17 <AndyS> Axel: May be better to follow process: first wiki draft a reposne, WG approves, then send
Axel Polleres: May be better to follow process: first wiki draft a reposne, WG approves, then send ←
15:10:23 <SteveH_> sounds ok
Steve Harris: sounds ok ←
15:10:27 <AlexPassant> ok
Alexandre Passant: ok ←
15:10:58 <AndyS> Topic: Comments process
15:11:10 <AndyS> Axel: seek acknowledgement of response
Axel Polleres: seek acknowledgement of response ←
15:11:25 <AxelPolleres> status - open/RESPONED/RESP+ACK
Axel Polleres: status - open/RESPONED/RESP+ACK ←
15:11:29 <AlexPassant> can we use the tracker for that ?
Alexandre Passant: can we use the tracker for that ? ←
15:11:48 <Zakim> + +1.937.775.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.775.aaff ←
15:11:59 <Prateek> Zakim,+1.937.775.aaff is Prateek
Prateek Jain: Zakim,+1.937.775.aaff is Prateek ←
15:11:59 <Zakim> +Prateek; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Prateek; got it ←
15:12:11 <AndyS> q+ to ask how things get onto the wiki in the first place
q+ to ask how things get onto the wiki in the first place ←
15:12:53 <AndyS> ivan: tracker makes work later
Ivan Herman: tracker makes work later ←
15:13:07 <AndyS> ... wiki is ready for the review processing
... wiki is ready for the review processing ←
15:13:33 <AxelPolleres> ack AndyS
Axel Polleres: ack AndyS ←
15:13:33 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask how things get onto the wiki in the first place
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask how things get onto the wiki in the first place ←
15:13:37 <SteveH_> ack ??P8
Steve Harris: ack ??P8 ←
15:13:50 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, unmute AndyS
Axel Polleres: Zakim, unmute AndyS ←
15:13:50 <Zakim> AndyS was not muted, AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS was not muted, AxelPolleres ←
15:14:02 <AndyS> seem to be muted by technology
seem to be muted by technology ←
15:14:20 <AndyS> How do comments get onto the wiki? axel to trck comments email list?
How do comments get onto the wiki? axel to trck comments email list? ←
15:14:46 <AndyS> axel: yes
Axel Polleres: yes ←
15:15:21 <AndyS> Topic: Liasons
15:15:46 <AndyS> Orri: RDF2RDB - reviewing existing work
Orri Erling: RDF2RDB - reviewing existing work ←
15:16:00 <AndyS> ... support vendor specific extensions
... support vendor specific extensions ←
15:16:12 <AndyS> ... more to come - couple of weeks
... more to come - couple of weeks ←
15:16:36 <AndyS> Steve: eGov - nothing to report
Steve Harris: eGov - nothing to report ←
15:16:43 <AndyS> Regrets: sandro, BirteG
15:18:29 <AndyS> Axel: What were the conclusions about Service Descriptions?
Axel Polleres: What were the conclusions about Service Descriptions? ←
15:18:44 <AndyS> .. taken to email? Didn't see email.
.. taken to email? Didn't see email. ←
15:19:12 <AndyS> kasei: changes made in CVS
Gregory Williams: changes made in CVS ←
15:19:25 <KjetilK> q+ to say where DELETE abbrev stands
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ to say where DELETE abbrev stands ←
15:19:32 <AxelPolleres> Action: greg to summarise changes of SD and conclusions from last TC along with open questions.
ACTION: greg to summarise changes of SD and conclusions from last TC along with open questions. ←
15:19:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Summarise changes of SD and conclusions from last TC along with open questions. [on Gregory Williams - due 2009-12-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-142 - Summarise changes of SD and conclusions from last TC along with open questions. [on Gregory Williams - due 2009-12-08]. ←
15:19:39 <KjetilK> ack me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack me ←
15:19:40 <Zakim> KjetilK, you wanted to say where DELETE abbrev stands
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK, you wanted to say where DELETE abbrev stands ←
15:20:03 <AndyS> Topic: Abbrev DELETE
15:20:28 <AndyS> kjetilk: need to consider wider context
Kjetil Kjernsmo: need to consider wider context ←
15:20:41 <AndyS> ... but WG keen to have abbrev DELETE
... but WG keen to have abbrev DELETE ←
15:20:43 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
15:20:43 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK should now be muted ←
15:20:52 <AndyS> Axel: will cover today
Axel Polleres: will cover today ←
15:21:10 <AndyS> ... and relates to dataset/graph store
... and relates to dataset/graph store ←
15:21:14 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0503.html
Axel Polleres: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0503.html ←
15:21:21 <AndyS> Topic: dataset/graph store
15:21:31 <AndyS> Axel: Will summarise
Axel Polleres: Will summarise ←
15:21:45 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/51
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/51 ←
15:21:59 <AndyS> ... At F2F1, issue-51, meaning of dataset description clauses - allowed?
... At F2F1, ISSUE-51, meaning of dataset description clauses - allowed? ←
15:22:37 <AndyS> ... Graph store = collection of graphs but != dataset
... Graph store = collection of graphs but != dataset ←
15:22:53 <AndyS> ... e.g. graph URI used that is not in graph store
... e.g. graph URI used that is not in graph store ←
15:23:52 <AndyS> ... Lee summary: pattern mathicn against graph store - no restrictions
... Lee summary: pattern mathicn against graph store - no restrictions ←
15:24:02 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
15:25:00 <AndyS> AndyS: don't see a use case for dataset description
Andy Seaborne: don't see a use case for dataset description ←
15:25:43 <AndyS> ... DELETE FROM overloads FROM with a different meaning
... DELETE FROM overloads FROM with a different meaning ←
15:25:52 <AxelPolleres> DELETE FROM <http://example/bookStore>
Axel Polleres: DELETE FROM <http://example/bookStore> ←
15:25:53 <AxelPolleres> { ?book ?p ?v }
Axel Polleres: { ?book ?p ?v } ←
15:25:53 <AxelPolleres> WHERE
Axel Polleres: WHERE ←
15:25:53 <AxelPolleres> {
Axel Polleres: { ←
15:26:03 <AxelPolleres> DELETE {GRAPH <http://example/bookStore>
Axel Polleres: DELETE {GRAPH <http://example/bookStore> ←
15:26:03 <AxelPolleres> { ?book ?p ?v }}
Axel Polleres: { ?book ?p ?v }} ←
15:26:03 <AxelPolleres> WHERE
Axel Polleres: WHERE ←
15:26:03 <AxelPolleres> {
Axel Polleres: { ←
15:26:22 <SteveH_> -1 to DELETE FROM
Steve Harris: -1 to DELETE FROM ←
15:26:31 <SteveH_> +1 to DELETE ... GRAPH
Steve Harris: +1 to DELETE ... GRAPH ←
15:26:36 <AndyS> (PaulG wrote about this last night)
(PaulG wrote about this last night) ←
15:27:33 <AndyS> pgearon: don't see a difference - syntactic variant
Paula Gearon: don't see a difference - syntactic variant ←
15:27:43 <SteveH_> INSERT { GRAPH <x> { ... } GRAPH <y> { ... } }
Steve Harris: INSERT { GRAPH <x> { ... } GRAPH <y> { ... } } ←
15:28:32 <AndyS> pgearon: quads blocks don't look like SQL which is my (paul) pref
Paula Gearon: quads blocks don't look like SQL which is my (paul) pref ←
15:28:33 <AxelPolleres> INSERT INTO and DELETE FROM as syntactic sugar? for INSERT/DELETE { GRAPH ...
Axel Polleres: INSERT INTO and DELETE FROM as syntactic sugar? for INSERT/DELETE { GRAPH ... ←
15:28:36 <KjetilK> SteveH_, so, moving triples between graphs?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: SteveH_, so, moving triples between graphs? ←
15:28:42 <dcharbon2> q+
David Charboneau: q+ ←
15:28:45 <LeeF> I'm happy to hvae GRAPH { ... } specify the target of what gets inserted/deleted, but i'm not happy to lose the ability to use FROM & FROM NAMED to define an RDF dataset for the WHERE part of an update operation
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm happy to hvae GRAPH { ... } specify the target of what gets inserted/deleted, but i'm not happy to lose the ability to use FROM & FROM NAMED to define an RDF dataset for the WHERE part of an update operation ←
15:29:00 <SteveH_> I don't like the idea of overloading FROM
Steve Harris: I don't like the idea of overloading FROM ←
15:29:03 <KjetilK> q+
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ ←
15:29:18 <AndyS> LeeF, it's not lost - it's not there currently as far as I can see.
LeeF, it's not lost - it's not there currently as far as I can see. ←
15:29:27 <LeeF> AndyS, exactly
Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS, exactly ←
15:29:38 <LeeF> lose it when going from query -> update
Lee Feigenbaum: lose it when going from query -> update ←
15:29:48 <AndyS> Leef, is it needed? Use case?
Leef, is it needed? Use case? ←
15:30:01 <AndyS> pgearon: no WITH means apply to unnamed graph
Paula Gearon: no WITH means apply to unnamed graph ←
15:30:05 <LeeF> anytime I want to scope the graphs that my insert/delete pattern-matching operate over
Lee Feigenbaum: anytime I want to scope the graphs that my insert/delete pattern-matching operate over ←
15:30:15 <AndyS> Axel: every graph store has a default graph store?
Axel Polleres: every graph store has a default graph store? ←
15:30:41 <AndyS> pgearon: if ref to non-existant graph then error just like <NotInGraphStore>
Paula Gearon: if ref to non-existant graph then error just like <NotInGraphStore> ←
15:31:01 <LeeF> (basically, the same use cases as FROM & FROM NAMED in SPARQL Query)
Lee Feigenbaum: (basically, the same use cases as FROM & FROM NAMED in SPARQL Query) ←
15:31:02 <AndyS> axel: update in service description?
Axel Polleres: update in service description? ←
15:31:21 <AndyS> kasei: not in SD
Gregory Williams: not in SD ←
15:31:24 <SteveH_> IIRC you're required to have an unnamed graph, though it can be empty of course [splitting hairs
Steve Harris: IIRC you're required to have an unnamed graph, though it can be empty of course [splitting hairs ←
15:31:52 <AxelPolleres> do we need the availability of an unnamed graph in SD? (issue)
Axel Polleres: do we need the availability of an unnamed graph in SD? (issue) ←
15:31:52 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-52 - Do we need the availability of an unnamed graph in SD? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/52/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-52 - Do we need the availability of an unnamed graph in SD? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/52/edit . ←
15:32:13 <AndyS> LeeF, OK - access to graphs not in the store on web etc
LeeF, OK - access to graphs not in the store on web etc ←
15:32:54 <AndyS> pgearon: NO FROM,INTO or WITH is default graph
Paula Gearon: NO FROM,INTO or WITH is default graph ←
15:33:00 <AxelPolleres> I am actually not 100% sure whether we haven't got already an issue about that (whether or not an unnnamed graph is required/implicit?)
Axel Polleres: I am actually not 100% sure whether we haven't got already an issue about that (whether or not an unnnamed graph is required/implicit?) ←
15:33:14 <LeeF> AndyS, well, sure, but in my case it's really more about constraining the scope of the pattern matching to a union of a subset of the graphs in my store
Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS, well, sure, but in my case it's really more about constraining the scope of the pattern matching to a union of a subset of the graphs in my store ←
15:33:29 <SteveH_> "a Graph Store contains one unnamed graph and zero or more named graphs"
Steve Harris: "a Graph Store contains one unnamed graph and zero or more named graphs" ←
15:33:30 <AndyS> LeeF, what about GRAPH like query uses?
LeeF, what about GRAPH like query uses? ←
15:33:34 <SteveH_> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/Overview.xml
Steve Harris: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/Overview.xml ←
15:33:51 <AndyS> LeeF, take to email?
LeeF, take to email? ←
15:34:26 <LeeF> AndyS, sure
Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS, sure ←
15:34:34 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel link issue-52 to issue-20 and check back
ACTION: axel link ISSUE-52 to ISSUE-20 and check back ←
15:34:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-143 - Link issue-52 to issue-20 and check back [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-143 - Link ISSUE-52 to ISSUE-20 and check back [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08]. ←
15:34:40 <KjetilK> q?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q? ←
15:34:50 <AndyS> q-
q- ←
15:35:31 <AndyS> There is an unnamed graph always (it can be empty)- make it like RDF dataset.
There is an unnamed graph always (it can be empty)- make it like RDF dataset. ←
15:36:07 <SteveH_> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
15:36:16 <KjetilK> ack dcharbon
Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack dcharbon ←
15:36:38 <AndyS> dcharbon: observe DELETE FROM like SQL but could specify before in request (slice of graph store foro rest of request until next slice)
David Charboneau: observe DELETE FROM like SQL but could specify before in request (slice of graph store foro rest of request until next slice) ←
15:37:03 <AndyS> ... more like choose subset ... actions .. choose subset ...
... more like choose subset ... actions .. choose subset ... ←
15:37:04 <chimezie> as in:
Chimezie Ogbuji: as in: ←
15:37:10 <chimezie> FROM ....
Chimezie Ogbuji: FROM .... ←
15:37:17 <chimezie> DELETE { .... }
Chimezie Ogbuji: DELETE { .... } ←
15:37:40 <SteveH_> q?
Steve Harris: q? ←
15:37:48 <KjetilK> ack me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack me ←
15:38:48 <AxelPolleres> seems one main crux is issue-20, the other is whether we want syntactic sugar FROM/INTO/(USING)
Axel Polleres: seems one main crux is ISSUE-20, the other is whether we want syntactic sugar FROM/INTO/(USING) ←
15:38:49 <SteveH_> ack me
Steve Harris: ack me ←
15:38:58 <AndyS> kjetilk: arg against DELETE FROM is that FROM is uses elsewhere (query)
Kjetil Kjernsmo: arg against DELETE FROM is that FROM is uses elsewhere (query) ←
15:39:19 <AndyS> SteveH_: false impression for SQL ; confusing for SPARQL
Steve Harris: false impression for SQL ; confusing for SPARQL ←
15:39:42 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
15:39:56 <SteveH_> +1 to AndyS
Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS ←
15:40:09 <SteveH_> AndyS: I don't know what syntactic sugar
Andy Seaborne: I don't know what syntactic sugar [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
15:40:37 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
15:40:37 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK should now be muted ←
15:40:46 <AndyS> ack me
ack me ←
15:40:47 <chimezie> using GRAPH with INSERT seems odd
Chimezie Ogbuji: using GRAPH with INSERT seems odd ←
15:41:22 <KjetilK> +1 (should either do only DELETE FROM or GRAPH, not syntactic sugar as the former for the latter)
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 (should either do only DELETE FROM or GRAPH, not syntactic sugar as the former for the latter) ←
15:41:41 <AxelPolleres> strawpoll ... shall we drop DELETE FROM/ INSERT INTO, in favor of just having DELETE/INSERT { GRAPH ...
Axel Polleres: strawpoll ... shall we drop DELETE FROM/ INSERT INTO, in favor of just having DELETE/INSERT { GRAPH ... ←
15:42:23 <AndyS> chimezie: all or nothing question. Find INSERT INTO natural
Chimezie Ogbuji: all or nothing question. Find INSERT INTO natural ←
15:42:23 <AxelPolleres> shall we drop DELETE FROM ?
Axel Polleres: shall we drop DELETE FROM ? ←
15:42:29 <SteveH_> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:42:32 <chimezie> +1
Chimezie Ogbuji: +1 ←
15:42:39 <AxelPolleres> 0
Axel Polleres: 0 ←
15:42:42 <AlexPassant> +1
Alexandre Passant: +1 ←
15:42:43 <ivan> 0
Ivan Herman: 0 ←
15:42:45 <LukeWM> 0
15:42:47 <dcharbon2> 0
15:42:50 <pgearon> -1
Paula Gearon: -1 ←
15:42:56 <AndyS> Can't say
Can't say ←
15:43:02 <kasei> +1
Gregory Williams: +1 ←
15:43:16 <AndyS> My pref (0.75) is GRAPH uniformly.
My pref (0.75) is GRAPH uniformly. ←
15:43:37 <AndyS> Either INTO and FROM or GRAPH - mixed is weird.
Either INTO and FROM or GRAPH - mixed is weird. ←
15:43:43 <SteveH_> [verb] FROM ... WHERE { }
Steve Harris: [verb] FROM ... WHERE { } ←
15:43:57 <SteveH_> +1 to AndyS
Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS ←
15:44:46 <AxelPolleres> shall we drop INSERT INTO?
Axel Polleres: shall we drop INSERT INTO? ←
15:44:48 <LukeWM> +1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 ←
15:44:49 <SteveH_> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:44:56 <ivan> 0
Ivan Herman: 0 ←
15:45:02 <kasei> +1
Gregory Williams: +1 ←
15:45:02 <pgearon> only if dropping DELETE FROM
Paula Gearon: only if dropping DELETE FROM ←
15:45:05 <AxelPolleres> 0
Axel Polleres: 0 ←
15:45:11 <KjetilK> +1 to pgearon
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 to pgearon ←
15:45:13 <chimezie> if the alternative is INSERT {GRAPH .. {..}} that would seem very confusing to me, so -1
Chimezie Ogbuji: if the alternative is INSERT {GRAPH .. {..}} that would seem very confusing to me, so -1 ←
15:45:15 <AlexPassant> +1 to pgearon
Alexandre Passant: +1 to pgearon ←
15:45:19 <Zakim> -dcharbon2
Zakim IRC Bot: -dcharbon2 ←
15:45:24 <AndyS> +1 to track with DELETE FROM
+1 to track with DELETE FROM ←
15:46:07 <AndyS> Is there a non-FROM word we can use?
Is there a non-FROM word we can use? ←
15:46:22 <AndyS> chimezie: use cases would be good
Chimezie Ogbuji: use cases would be good ←
15:46:36 <AndyS> +1 to chimezie
+1 to chimezie ←
15:46:40 <SteveH_> INSERT { GRAPH ?x { ?x ?y ?z } } WHERE { ?x ?y ?z } is a usecase
Steve Harris: INSERT { GRAPH ?x { ?x ?y ?z } } WHERE { ?x ?y ?z } is a usecase ←
15:46:47 <pgearon> +1 to use cases
Paula Gearon: +1 to use cases ←
15:46:57 <AndyS> INSERT { GRAPH ?g ... :-)
INSERT { GRAPH ?g ... :-) ←
15:47:16 <AndyS> pgearon: feel there is not consensus on direction
Paula Gearon: feel there is not consensus on direction ←
15:47:18 <Zakim> +dcharbon2
Zakim IRC Bot: +dcharbon2 ←
15:47:28 <AndyS> axel: who will write uses cases?
Axel Polleres: who will write uses cases? ←
15:47:49 <AndyS> pgearon: I offer to start discussion
Paula Gearon: I offer to start discussion ←
15:47:53 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: paul to start conversation in an email
ACTION: paul to start conversation in an email ←
15:47:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-144 - Start conversation in an email [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-12-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-144 - Start conversation in an email [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-12-08]. ←
15:48:04 <KjetilK> q+
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ ←
15:48:18 <AndyS> ACTION-144 - paul to start conversation in an email about uses cases for INSERT / DELETE
ACTION-144 - paul to start conversation in an email about uses cases for INSERT / DELETE ←
15:48:18 <trackbot> ACTION-144 Start conversation in an email notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-144 Start conversation in an email notes added ←
15:48:35 <KjetilK> ack me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: ack me ←
15:48:40 <KjetilK> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:UpdateUseCases
Kjetil Kjernsmo: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:UpdateUseCases ←
15:48:57 <AndyS> kjetilk: remind people we have use cases (see link)
Kjetil Kjernsmo: remind people we have use cases (see link) ←
15:48:57 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
15:48:57 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK should now be muted ←
15:49:37 <AndyS> Those use caes don't compare and contrast the use of the two styles.
Those use caes don't compare and contrast the use of the two styles. ←
15:49:51 <AndyS> pgearon: want to have cases with multiple graphs
Paula Gearon: want to have cases with multiple graphs ←
15:50:02 <AndyS> ... start with wiki examples
... start with wiki examples ←
15:50:07 <KjetilK> We have one that may be relevant: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/ResourceTopicPortals#Move_data_between_graphs
Kjetil Kjernsmo: We have one that may be relevant: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/ResourceTopicPortals#Move_data_between_graphs ←
15:50:10 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
15:50:19 <AndyS> axel: INSERT INTO one graph at a time
Axel Polleres: INSERT INTO one graph at a time ←
15:50:36 <AndyS> pgearon: quads makes it hard for triple stores
Paula Gearon: quads makes it hard for triple stores ←
15:50:36 <LukeWM> ack me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: ack me ←
15:50:59 <chimezie> In that use case (moving between graphs) the use of GRAPH/INTO seem more intuitve
Chimezie Ogbuji: In that use case (moving between graphs) the use of GRAPH/INTO seem more intuitive ←
15:50:59 <AndyS> ... want to have the ability to match onegraph and use template to insert into another
... want to have the ability to match onegraph and use template to insert into another ←
15:51:05 <chimezie> s/intuitve/intuitive
15:51:23 <LukeWM> LeeF's email had an example of using FROM in insert: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0503.html
Luke Wilson-Mawer: LeeF's email had an example of using FROM in insert: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0503.html ←
15:51:29 <AndyS> (also applies to DELETE from a graph by template)
(also applies to DELETE from a graph by template) ←
15:51:51 <AndyS> axel: Variables in FROM?
Axel Polleres: Variables in FROM? ←
15:52:02 <AndyS> chimezie: what's the var scope?
Chimezie Ogbuji: what's the var scope? ←
15:52:13 <AndyS> .. and range
.. and range ←
15:52:32 <AndyS> ... or does the WHERE apply.
... or does the WHERE apply. ←
15:52:47 <AndyS> axel: is there a use case for insert into every graph in store?
Axel Polleres: is there a use case for insert into every graph in store? ←
15:52:58 <AndyS> pgearon: what about insert ontology everywhere?
Paula Gearon: what about insert ontology everywhere? ←
15:53:05 <AndyS> orri: loop on variable
Orri Erling: loop on variable ←
15:53:07 <SteveH_> INSERT { GRAPH ?g { <a> <b> <c> } WHERE { GRAPH ?g {} }
Steve Harris: INSERT { GRAPH ?g { <a> <b> <c> } WHERE { GRAPH ?g {} } ←
15:53:14 <SteveH_> don't need unbound variables
Steve Harris: don't need unbound variables ←
15:53:55 <AndyS> axel: what if var is boud to URI not namign a graph store? error? skip? create?
Axel Polleres: what if var is boud to URI not namign a graph store? error? skip? create? ←
15:53:57 <AxelPolleres> insert { graph ?g { } }
Axel Polleres: insert { graph ?g { } } ←
15:54:06 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
15:54:42 <AxelPolleres> means inserting into the graphs with bindings for ?g, if the graph doesn't exist, then create it...
Axel Polleres: means inserting into the graphs with bindings for ?g, if the graph doesn't exist, then create it... ←
15:55:02 <AxelPolleres> andyS: this is problematic, if the graphstore only alllows certain URIs
Andy Seaborne: this is problematic, if the graphstore only alllows certain URIs [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
15:56:02 <AndyS> orri: we would create. But otehr may generate error.
Orri Erling: we would create. But otehr may generate error. ←
15:56:11 <SteveH_> that would be analagous to a URI that you just didn't like e.g. <a\tb>
Steve Harris: that would be analagous to a URI that you just didn't like e.g. <a\tb> ←
15:56:14 <SteveH_> surely?
Steve Harris: surely? ←
15:56:43 <dcharbon2> how do I delete from 3 named graphs without from? like this? delete { graph ?g { <s> <p> <o> } } where { graph ?g {} filter (?g = <g1> || ?g = <g2> || ?g = <g3>) }
David Charboneau: how do I delete from 3 named graphs without from? like this? delete { graph ?g { <s> <p> <o> } } where { graph ?g {} filter (?g = <g1> || ?g = <g2> || ?g = <g3>) } ←
15:56:44 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to check whether we have an issue for insert into ?var, otherwise create it.
ACTION: axel to check whether we have an issue for insert into ?var, otherwise create it. ←
15:56:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Check whether we have an issue for insert into ?var, otherwise create it. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-145 - Check whether we have an issue for insert into ?var, otherwise create it. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08]. ←
15:56:50 <AndyS> SteveH_, that might be (shoudl be?) trapped earlier.
SteveH_, that might be (shoudl be?) trapped earlier. ←
15:57:05 <SteveH_> AndyS, perhaps
Steve Harris: AndyS, perhaps ←
15:57:06 <pgearon> I'd really like the option of making an unknown graph an error. I can see a case where a bug could pollute a graph store with thousands of unwanted graphs
Paula Gearon: I'd really like the option of making an unknown graph an error. I can see a case where a bug could pollute a graph store with thousands of unwanted graphs ←
15:57:11 <AndyS> "it" = issue not the graph
"it" = issue not the graph ←
15:57:46 <AndyS> { graph <a> { <s> <p> <o> } graph <b> { <s> <p> <o> } graph <c> { <s> <p> <o> } }
{ graph <a> { <s> <p> <o> } graph <b> { <s> <p> <o> } graph <c> { <s> <p> <o> } } ←
15:58:33 <AndyS> axel: take to email
Axel Polleres: take to email ←
15:59:18 <AndyS> pgearon: lack of DROP equivalent is worrying.
Paula Gearon: lack of DROP equivalent is worrying. ←
15:59:35 <AndyS> ... can't do a mass removal of graphs.
... can't do a mass removal of graphs. ←
15:59:52 <SteveH_> INSERT { ?x ?y ?z WHERE { GRAPH ?g { ?x ?y ?z } } is just as destructive,and can't be undone
Steve Harris: INSERT { ?x ?y ?z WHERE { GRAPH ?g { ?x ?y ?z } } is just as destructive,and can't be undone ←
16:00:12 <AndyS> This is an issue - is a graph with no triples exist
This is an issue - is a graph with no triples exist ←
16:00:39 <AxelPolleres> existence of empty graph is again issue-20, BTW
Axel Polleres: existence of empty graph is again ISSUE-20, BTW ←
16:00:59 <AndyS> Issue owner?
Issue owner? ←
16:01:09 <AndyS> pgearon: different for triple and quad stores
Paula Gearon: different for triple and quad stores ←
16:01:46 <AndyS> ... INSERT creates, DELETE does not drop
... INSERT creates, DELETE does not drop ←
16:01:58 <SteveH_> DROP ?g WHERE { GRAPH ?g {} }
Steve Harris: DROP ?g WHERE { GRAPH ?g {} } ←
16:01:59 <SteveH_> ?
Steve Harris: ? ←
16:02:08 <AndyS> We must support both styles - e.g. graph metadata
We must support both styles - e.g. graph metadata ←
16:02:18 <dcharbon2> +1 SteveH_
David Charboneau: +1 SteveH_ ←
16:02:21 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
16:02:26 <AxelPolleres> implicit CREATE is assymetric to DELETE which doesn't necessarily drop.
Axel Polleres: implicit CREATE is assymetric to DELETE which doesn't necessarily drop. ←
16:03:13 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: another use case is what graphs are in my graph store.
Andy Seaborne: another use case is what graphs are in my graph store. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
16:03:29 <AndyS> Axel: core is issue-20
Axel Polleres: core is ISSUE-20 ←
16:03:43 <AndyS> ... who would lead this?
... who would lead this? ←
16:04:01 <pgearon> I'm also uncomfortable with having to monitor all inserts to see if I need to identify new graphs being created (which I need to do for our graph management)
Paula Gearon: I'm also uncomfortable with having to monitor all inserts to see if I need to identify new graphs being created (which I need to do for our graph management) ←
16:04:37 <AndyS> axel: overtime now - will summarise on email
Axel Polleres: overtime now - will summarise on email ←
16:04:55 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
Zakim IRC Bot: -Chimezie_Ogbuji ←
16:04:56 <Zakim> -Prateek
Zakim IRC Bot: -Prateek ←
16:04:57 <Zakim> -Orri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Orri ←
16:04:59 <Zakim> -john-l
Zakim IRC Bot: -john-l ←
16:05:01 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:05:01 <AndyS> We didn't get to aggregate functions
We didn't get to aggregate functions ←
16:05:02 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexPassant ←
16:05:03 <Zakim> -kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei ←
16:05:03 <Zakim> -[Garlik
Zakim IRC Bot: -[Garlik ←
16:05:05 <Zakim> -dcharbon2
Zakim IRC Bot: -dcharbon2 ←
16:05:08 <AndyS> ADJOURNED
ADJOURNED ←
16:05:24 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to make a draft on alternatives for ISSUE-20
ACTION: Axel to make a draft on alternatives for ISSUE-20 ←
16:05:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Make a draft on alternatives for ISSUE-20 [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-146 - Make a draft on alternatives for ISSUE-20 [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-12-08]. ←
16:05:38 <Zakim> -pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon ←
16:06:47 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:06:48 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
Axel Polleres: rrsagent, make records public ←
16:07:09 <AxelPolleres> andy, will you take care of getting the minutes online?
Axel Polleres: andy, will you take care of getting the minutes online? ←
16:08:36 <Zakim> -KjetilK
Zakim IRC Bot: -KjetilK ←
16:09:30 <AndyS> Wil try to do the minutes
Wil try to do the minutes ←
16:10:03 <AxelPolleres> so, were there really no actions last time, or were they just not recorded... if there were, it seems they go lost in the IRC log... :-(
Axel Polleres: so, were there really no actions last time, or were they just not recorded... if there were, it seems they go lost in the IRC log... :-( ←
16:10:06 <AxelPolleres> ?
Axel Polleres: ? ←
16:10:12 <AxelPolleres> thanks, andy!
Axel Polleres: thanks, andy! ←
Formatted by CommonScribe