Meeting Record

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes ←

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), LeeF ←

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes minutes world', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes log world', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

F2F scheduled from May 6-7. In person attendance encouraged. Everyone should check their calendars and let Lee know who will be attending (for planning purposes). ←

Axel Polleres: ... two options for alternate location: Bristol and Manchester. ←

Opportunity for 2nd F2F at TPAC2009 in Santa Clara, CA the week of Nov. 2-6, 2009. What does everyone think? ←

Ivan Herman: Santa Clara may be too expensive. W3C considering alternate location - will decide in several weeks. ←

Ivan Mikhailov: For me, CA in Nov would be nice contrast with Novosibirsk in Nov :) ←

TPAC may be a better option as there will be opportunity to integrate with other W3C groups. ←

Lee and Axel's role is to ensure that the "right" list of features is adopted (i.e. Lee wants to make everyone unhappy - at least, a little!) ←

Lee reminds that the group is responsible for creating the specifications for the features that are adopted (and that is not trivial). ←

Lee Feigenbaum: Point 1: We won't probably be able to do all in 18month, that might guide us to narrow down the number. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←

Lee Feigenbaum: Support by implementations important, pervasive support, usefulness. Can requested features be done with the language as is? [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←

Lee Feigenbaum: option: standardize on extensibility points rather than extensions themselves. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←

Lee Feigenbaum: The features that get adopted must be interoperable (and should be core to the language). SPARQL v1 already has some extensibility points; just because we "could" standardize an extension does not mean we "have to". It may be a better use of our time to standardize on extensibility points rather than to standardize an extension in and of itself. For example, standardizing a service option may advance SPARQL further (especially with respect to interoperabilit ←

Lee Feigenbaum: It's unrealistic to review all the proposed features on a teleconference; participation on the SPARQL working group must include work outside of the call. In particular, please start threads on the mailing list regarding your "favorite" feature and why. Others should reply to the posts, ask questions, clarify as needed, challenge as desired, etc. In summary, the mailing lists (and associated threads) will be the main method for discussing the various feature ←

Unknown ericP: q+ to suggest a mailing convention like Subject: [AccessingRdfLists] blah blah blah ←

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to suggest a mailing convention like Subject: [AccessingRdfLists] blah blah blah ←

Ivan Mikhailov: There are two features: BI and Federation. Others are minor details of these two :) ←

Axel Polleres: +1 to offline go over the list and try to propose merge to authors. ←

There may be some features that could be merged - Lee encourages anyone interested in doing so to review which are candidates for merging and then make such a proposal. ←

Lee Feigenbaum: All work group participants come from varying backgrounds and with different opinions - we will try to reach consensus. However, we all need to maintain an open mind as we review the features and consider which ones to go forward with. ←

Ivan Mikhailov: First we should agree about some objectives that are more precise than "better SPARQL, upward-compatible" ←

Axel Polleres: SteveH, ok that overconsolidation should be avoided, but try to make links *and differences* with related features explicit. ←

14:40:05 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ProjectExpressions

Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ProjectExpressions ←

14:41:15 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

14:42:06 <AndyS> I would relate it to constructors for RDF terms.

Andy Seaborne: I would relate it to constructors for RDF terms. ←

14:42:08 <LeeF> ack ivan

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivan ←

14:42:34 <chimezie> i think it returns a boolean

Chimezie Ogbuji: i think it returns a boolean ←

14:43:09 <chimezie> pure post-processing

Chimezie Ogbuji: pure post-processing ←

14:43:14 <Phil> Ivan asked clarifying question about first example - the "(?age > 18)" projects a boolean value

Scribe problem: the name 'Phil' does not match any of the 47 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alexandre Passant Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Newman Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Janne Saarela Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Libby Miller Luke Wilson-Mawer Orri Erling Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sergio Tessaris Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Ivan asked clarifying question about first example - the "(?age > 18)" projects a boolean value ←

14:44:08 <AxelPolleres> q+

Axel Polleres: q+ ←

14:44:08 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←

14:44:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see LukeWM, AndyS, john-l (muted), kasei (muted), Lee_Feigenbaum, iv_an_ru, Ivan, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, SteveH, EricP, kjetil (muted), Orri, Phil,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see LukeWM, AndyS, john-l (muted), kasei (muted), Lee_Feigenbaum, iv_an_ru, Ivan, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, SteveH, EricP, kjetil (muted), Orri, Phil, ←

14:44:12 <SteveH> sorry, it's a wacky first example

Steve Harris: sorry, it's a wacky first example ←

14:44:13 <Zakim> ... Chimezie_Ogbuji, DaveNewman, Souri, ywang4

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Chimezie_Ogbuji, DaveNewman, Souri, ywang4 ←

14:44:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, chimezie, Phil, AlexPassant, kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, chimezie, Phil, AlexPassant, kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil, ←

14:44:16 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

14:44:17 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP ←

14:44:17 <SteveH> mea culpa

Steve Harris: mea culpa ←

14:44:29 <john-l> No, I think it's a fine first example, once you understand what's going on.

John Clark: No, I think it's a fine first example, once you understand what's going on. ←

14:44:43 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: Might be one or the other with assignment

Axel Polleres: Might be one or the other with assignment [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←

14:44:56 <ericP> i agree, and assignment is more powerful

Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 47 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alexandre Passant Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Newman Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Janne Saarela Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Libby Miller Luke Wilson-Mawer Orri Erling Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sergio Tessaris Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ericP: i agree, and assignment is more powerful ←

14:44:57 <LeeF> ack ivan

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivan ←

14:45:00 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres ←

14:45:04 <AxelPolleres> q-

Axel Polleres: q- ←

14:45:04 <iv_an_ru> +q

Ivan Mikhailov: +q ←

14:45:29 <LeeF> ack iv_an_ru

Lee Feigenbaum: ack iv_an_ru ←

14:45:32 <Phil> Lee: Syntax debates should be reserved for the mailing list

Lee Feigenbaum: Syntax debates should be reserved for the mailing list ←

14:45:40 <john-l> Perhaps say "whether the person is over 18" instead of "where the person is over 18"?

John Clark: Perhaps say "whether the person is over 18" instead of "where the person is over 18"? ←

14:47:20 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1 ←

14:47:28 <john-l> +0

John Clark: +0 ←

14:47:28 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1 ←

14:47:31 <ericP> +0

Unknown ericP: +0 ←

14:47:34 <Phil> Polling of opinions regarding Project Expressions (poll on IRC)

Polling of opinions regarding Project Expressions (poll on IRC) ←

14:47:37 <AlexPassant> +1

Alexandre Passant: +1 ←

14:47:38 <Phil> +1

+1 ←

14:47:39 <ivanh> +1

Ivan Herman: +1 ←

14:47:39 <kjetil> +0

Scribe problem: the name 'kjetil' does not match any of the 47 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alexandre Passant Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Newman Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Janne Saarela Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Libby Miller Luke Wilson-Mawer Orri Erling Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sergio Tessaris Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown kjetil: +0 ←

14:47:40 <kasei> +1

Gregory Williams: +1 ←

14:47:40 <AxelPolleres> +1 (modulo redundancy avoidance w.r.t. assignment)

Axel Polleres: +1 (modulo redundancy avoidance w.r.t. assignment) ←

14:47:40 <ywang4> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'ywang4' does not match any of the 47 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alexandre Passant Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Newman Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Janne Saarela Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Libby Miller Luke Wilson-Mawer Orri Erling Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sergio Tessaris Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ywang4: +1 ←

14:47:41 <LukeWM> +1

Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 ←

14:47:46 <iv_an_ru> +1

Ivan Mikhailov: +1 ←

14:47:50 <chimezie> +1

Chimezie Ogbuji: +1 ←

14:47:56 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1 ←

14:47:58 <kasei> and agree with AndyS regarding the potential for rewriting

Gregory Williams: and agree with AndyS regarding the potential for rewriting ←

14:48:07 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←

14:49:14 <Phil> In general, the group seems to be strongly in favor of Project Expressions.

In general, the group seems to be strongly in favor of Project Expressions. ←

14:49:19 <LeeF> topic: subselects

6. subselects

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 8/8/1

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 8/8/1

14:49:21 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SubSelects

Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SubSelects ←

14:49:26 <Phil> Next topic: subselects

Next topic: subselects ←

14:50:04 <LeeF> SteveH: subselects gives you other features "for free"

Steve Harris: subselects gives you other features "for free" [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←

14:50:15 <LeeF> ... e.g. !ASK for some forms of negation

Lee Feigenbaum: ... e.g. !ASK for some forms of negation ←

14:50:35 <ericP> q+ to say point out that unlike SQL, we've not needed subselects so far for e.g. coherent OPTIONALS (outer joins) and UNIONS.

Unknown ericP: q+ to say point out that unlike SQL, we've not needed subselects so far for e.g. coherent OPTIONALS (outer joins) and UNIONS. ←

14:51:08 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

14:51:20 <Phil> In addition to Virtuoso as listed on the Wiki, there are other implementers of sub-select as well.

In addition to Virtuoso as listed on the Wiki, there are other implementers of sub-select as well. ←

14:51:37 <LeeF> ack ericP

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ericP ←

14:51:37 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say point out that unlike SQL, we've not needed subselects so far for e.g. coherent OPTIONALS (outer joins) and UNIONS.

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say point out that unlike SQL, we've not needed subselects so far for e.g. coherent OPTIONALS (outer joins) and UNIONS. ←

14:51:38 <Phil> (at least 2, anyway)

(at least 2, anyway) ←

14:52:17 <chimezie> +q to suggest we consider restricted subselects rather than all or nothing

Chimezie Ogbuji: +q to suggest we consider restricted subselects rather than all or nothing ←

14:52:53 <AndyS> The cost to the algebra is actually quite small to allow nesting queries.  One issue: breaks the multiset/sequence distinction but it's fixable and probably needed any way

Andy Seaborne: The cost to the algebra is actually quite small to allow nesting queries. One issue: breaks the multiset/sequence distinction but it's fixable and probably needed any way ←

14:52:57 <LeeF> ack ivan

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivan ←

14:53:00 <SteveH> q+ to disagree with eric

Steve Harris: q+ to disagree with eric ←

14:53:01 <ivanh> ?supp+>tpcd:acctbal

Ivan Herman: ?supp+>tpcd:acctbal ←

14:53:10 <AndyS> Related to: EXISTS/NOT EXISTS/UNSAID

Andy Seaborne: Related to: EXISTS/NOT EXISTS/UNSAID ←

14:53:19 <AndyS> which are a sub-ASK

Andy Seaborne: which are a sub-ASK ←

14:55:24 <Souri> What does "+>" in ?supp+>tpcd:acctbal stand for?

Souripriya Das: What does "+>" in ?supp+>tpcd:acctbal stand for? ←

14:56:01 <AxelPolleres> Is +> doable with braketted syntax?

Axel Polleres: Is +> doable with bracketed syntax? ←

14:56:20 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: apprently because the example after is suposed to be equivalent

Axel Polleres: apprently because the example after is suposed to be equivalent [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←

14:56:28 <AxelPolleres> s/braketted/bracketed/

14:56:39 <Phil> Lee: Simpler examples on sub-select wiki might help.

Lee Feigenbaum: Simpler examples on sub-select wiki might help. ←

14:56:39 <Phil> Orri: There have been simpler social-networking examples in the mailing lists.

Orri Erling: There have been simpler social-networking examples in the mailing lists. ←

14:56:43 <SteveH> sorry, AxelPolleres, not :

Steve Harris: sorry, AxelPolleres, not : ←

14:57:33 <john-l> I'm not familiar with TPC.

John Clark: I'm not familiar with TPC. ←

14:57:40 <chimezie> i am not familiar, unfortunately

Chimezie Ogbuji: i am not familiar, unfortunately ←

14:57:40 <LukeWM> I'm not either

Luke Wilson-Mawer: I'm not either ←

14:58:58 <Phil> Many folks are not familiar with the TPC queries; therefore, the simplest queries should be used for all of the feature categories (instead of the more complex TPC queries).

Many folks are not familiar with the TPC queries; therefore, the simplest queries should be used for all of the feature categories (instead of the more complex TPC queries). ←

14:58:58 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←

14:59:06 <LeeF> ack chimezie

Lee Feigenbaum: ack chimezie ←

14:59:06 <Zakim> chimezie, you wanted to suggest we consider restricted subselects rather than all or nothing

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie, you wanted to suggest we consider restricted subselects rather than all or nothing ←

14:59:33 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←

14:59:33 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to disagree with eric

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to disagree with eric ←

15:00:04 <LeeF> SteveH: adding too many surface syntax features makes query language complicated

Steve Harris: adding too many surface syntax features makes query language complicated [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←

15:00:05 <Souri> I am somewhat familiar, but we should decouple the examples from TPC benchmark to explain the utility.

Souripriya Das: I am somewhat familiar, but we should decouple the examples from TPC benchmark to explain the utility. ←

15:00:15 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←

15:00:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see LukeWM, AndyS, john-l (muted), kasei (muted), Lee_Feigenbaum, iv_an_ru, Ivan, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, SteveH, EricP, kjetil (muted), Orri, Phil,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see LukeWM, AndyS, john-l (muted), kasei (muted), Lee_Feigenbaum, iv_an_ru, Ivan, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, SteveH, EricP, kjetil (muted), Orri, Phil, ←

15:00:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, chimezie, Phil, AlexPassant, kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, chimezie, Phil, AlexPassant, kasei, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, AxelPolleres, john-l, LukeWM, ivan, AndyS_, iv_an_ru, LeeF, sandro, kjetil, ←

15:00:21 <Zakim> ... Chimezie_Ogbuji, DaveNewman, Souri, ywang4

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Chimezie_Ogbuji, DaveNewman, Souri, ywang4 ←

15:00:21 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1 ←

15:00:21 <AlexPassant> 0

Alexandre Passant: 0 ←

15:00:23 <john-l> +0

John Clark: +0 ←

15:00:25 <Phil> Polling for sub-selects:

Polling for sub-selects: ←

15:00:28 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP ←

15:00:29 <kasei> +0

Gregory Williams: +0 ←

15:00:31 <LukeWM> +1

Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 ←

15:00:32 <iv_an_ru> +1

Ivan Mikhailov: +1 ←

15:00:33 <kjetil> +1

Unknown kjetil: +1 ←

15:00:33 <chimezie> +0

Chimezie Ogbuji: +0 ←

15:00:35 <ericP> SteveH, i understand your point. would like to look in detail with you

Unknown ericP: SteveH, i understand your point. would like to look in detail with you ←

15:00:35 <ericP> -1

Unknown ericP: -1 ←

15:00:42 <Souri> +0.75

Souripriya Das: +0.75 ←

15:00:42 <ivanh> +0

Ivan Herman: +0 ←

15:00:42 <LeeF> Orri: 1

Orri Erling: 1 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←

15:00:42 <Phil> +0

+0 ←

15:00:53 <LeeF> David: +1

David Newman: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←

15:01:00 <LeeF> +0

Lee Feigenbaum: +0 ←

15:01:06 <AxelPolleres> +0

Axel Polleres: +0 ←

15:01:11 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1 ←

15:01:23 <SteveH> ericP, yes, sure

Steve Harris: ericP, yes, sure ←

15:01:47 <ericP> my hunch is that the verb count ends up the same

Unknown ericP: my hunch is that the verb count ends up the same ←

15:01:50 <chimezie> take care

Chimezie Ogbuji: take care ←

15:01:56 <Phil> meeting adjourned.

meeting adjourned. ←

Formatted by CommonScribe

SPARQL Working Group

Minutes of 10 March 2009

1. Administrivia

2. next meeting

3. Face to Face

4. overview of features

5. ProjectExpressions

6. subselects