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RDFa Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 10 January 2013

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2013Jan/0047.html
Seen
Gregg Kellogg, Ivan Herman, Manu Sporny, Niklas Lindström, Sebastian Heath, Shane McCarron, Stéphane Corlosquet
Guests
Sebastian Heath
Scribe
Shane McCarron
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Allow RDFa processor authors to add a flag that allows a default datatype for complex markup to be set when invoking the processor. link
Topics
14:53:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-rdfa-irc

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14:53:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

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14:53:51 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332

14:53:51 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

14:53:52 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
14:53:52 <trackbot> Date: 10 January 2013
14:59:21 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2013Jan/0047.html
15:00:45 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

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15:00:52 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron

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15:01:00 <ShaneM> zakim, I am Shane_McCarron

Shane McCarron: zakim, I am Shane_McCarron

15:01:00 <Zakim> ok, ShaneM, I now associate you with Shane_McCarron

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ShaneM, I now associate you with Shane_McCarron

15:01:09 <niklasl> zakim, I am ??P16

Niklas Lindström: zakim, I am ??P16

15:01:09 <Zakim> +niklasl; got it

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15:01:22 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

15:01:23 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

15:01:23 <Zakim> +Ivan

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15:02:08 <Zakim> +??P21

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15:02:13 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P21

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P21

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15:02:34 <Zakim> + +1.347.439.aaaa

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15:03:30 <Zakim> +??P26

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15:03:33 <manu> zakim, I am ??P26

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P26

15:03:33 <Zakim> +manu; got it

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15:05:43 <Zakim> +scor

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15:06:28 <ShaneM> Scribe: ShaneM

(Scribe set to Shane McCarron)

15:06:28 <ShaneM> Guest: Sebastian Heath
15:07:15 <ShaneM> Topic: Administrivia

1. Administrivia

15:07:28 <ShaneM> It is very unlikely that we will get through all of the issues today. The group will switch to weekly telecons until we've processed all of the remaining issues.

It is very unlikely that we will get through all of the issues today. The group will switch to weekly telecons until we've processed all of the remaining issues.

15:07:35 <ShaneM> The group is on track to take HTML+RDFa 1.1 to Last Call at the end of January 2013.

The group is on track to take HTML+RDFa 1.1 to Last Call at the end of January 2013.

15:07:40 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-147: Preserve markup by default

2. ISSUE-147: Preserve markup by default

15:07:49 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/147

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/147

15:08:55 <ShaneM> Manu: In RDFa 1.0 we used to generate an XMLLiteral by default if there was markup in content.  in RDFa 1.1 we decided to change the behavior because a number of people said that the data that was being gleaned from web sites had markup the authors probably did not intend.

Manu Sporny: In RDFa 1.0 we used to generate an XMLLiteral by default if there was markup in content. in RDFa 1.1 we decided to change the behavior because a number of people said that the data that was being gleaned from web sites had markup the authors probably did not intend.

15:09:08 <ShaneM> ... Sebastian has raised an issue that this is bad behavior.

... Sebastian has raised an issue that this is bad behavior.

15:09:49 <ShaneM> Sebastian summarizes the arguments made on the mailing list.

Sebastian summarizes the arguments made on the mailing list.

15:11:11 <ShaneM> ...  The system should not discard information by default.

... The system should not discard information by default.

15:12:07 <niklasl> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

15:12:12 <manu> q+

Manu Sporny: q+

15:12:14 <manu> ack niklasl

Manu Sporny: ack niklasl

15:12:16 <ShaneM> ... Current version forces authors to propagate @datatype throughout a document when they want to preserve markup - error prone.

... Current version forces authors to propagate @datatype throughout a document when they want to preserve markup - error prone.

15:12:33 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

15:13:23 <ShaneM> niklasl: Is it even possible to add the suggested attribute (from a process perspective)?  We have not been adding attributes in host language mappings.

Niklas Lindström: Is it even possible to add the suggested attribute (from a process perspective)? We have not been adding attributes in host language mappings.

15:13:54 <ShaneM> ... Is there a live demo of the data from Sebastian?

... Is there a live demo of the data from Sebastian?

15:14:13 <ShaneM> Heath: Yes - I referenced it on the mailing list.  A good example is a journal.

Sebastian Heath: Yes - I referenced it on the mailing list. A good example is a journal.

15:15:04 <manu> here's one example of what Sebastian is working on: http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/4/preprint/

Manu Sporny: here's one example of what Sebastian is working on: http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/4/preprint/

15:15:25 <ShaneM> ... also geographical data.  Sometimes there are italics.  While this is presentational, it is also semantic.

... also geographical data. Sometimes there are italics. While this is presentational, it is also semantic.

15:15:41 <gkellogg> Preserving the Right-to-Left nature of markup was the most convincing to me.

Gregg Kellogg: Preserving the Right-to-Left nature of markup was the most convincing to me.

15:16:06 <manu> ack manu

Manu Sporny: ack manu

15:17:01 <gkellogg> As turtle: http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller?format=turtle&in_fmt=rdfa&uri=http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/4/preprint/

Gregg Kellogg: As turtle: http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller?format=turtle&in_fmt=rdfa&uri=http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/4/preprint/

15:17:03 <manu> http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/2/

Manu Sporny: http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/2/

15:17:22 <manu> That's the link that Sebastian was talking about.

Manu Sporny: That's the link that Sebastian was talking about.

15:18:44 <ShaneM> manu: I don't think that Sebastian is asking for a new attribute.  It is a property in the head that would switch on preservation of markup.

Manu Sporny: I don't think that Sebastian is asking for a new attribute. It is a property in the head that would switch on preservation of markup.

15:18:47 <gkellogg> We already have flags to affect the output graph and vocabulary expansion

Gregg Kellogg: We already have flags to affect the output graph and vocabulary expansion

15:19:03 <ShaneM> Heath: The worst case would be something that was a flag on a tool.

Sebastian Heath: The worst case would be something that was a flag on a tool.

15:19:05 <manu> ack gkellogg

Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg

15:19:08 <manu> q+

Manu Sporny: q+

15:19:57 <ShaneM> gkellogg: First, if we make this change we will create a further divergence between RDFa 1.1 Lite and Microdata.  That would be a disservice.

Gregg Kellogg: First, if we make this change we will create a further divergence between RDFa 1.1 Lite and Microdata. That would be a disservice.

15:20:32 <niklasl> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

15:20:57 <ShaneM> ... Second, what percentage of the markup is textnodes that are not whitespaces?   Is there a way to detect semantics of the embedded markup?

... Second, what percentage of the markup is textnodes that are not whitespaces? Is there a way to detect semantics of the embedded markup?

15:21:29 <ShaneM> ... Lastly, we do already have flags to effect processor behavior.  It is not unprecedented.

... Lastly, we do already have flags to effect processor behavior. It is not unprecedented.

15:21:54 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:22:37 <ShaneM> manu: Restates Sebastian's request in preference order

Manu Sporny: Restates Sebastian's request in preference order

15:23:29 <manu> ack manu

Manu Sporny: ack manu

15:23:38 <manu> niklasl: Yes, that's the second suggestion.

Niklas Lindström: Yes, that's the second suggestion. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:23:41 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

15:23:45 <manu> the second suggestion to be something like: … <head> ... <link property="rdfa:defaultDatatype" resource="rdf:HTML" />

Manu Sporny: the second suggestion to be something like: … <head> ... <link property="rdfa:defaultDatatype" resource="rdf:HTML" />

15:23:48 <manu> ack niklasl

Manu Sporny: ack niklasl

15:25:03 <ShaneM> niklasl: If we were to inspect the content to try to determine whether to extract text or preserve markup, the way to do that reasonably would be to have a limited list HTML elements that have semantics

Niklas Lindström: If we were to inspect the content to try to determine whether to extract text or preserve markup, the way to do that reasonably would be to have a limited list HTML elements that have semantics

15:26:04 <manu> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

15:26:21 <ShaneM> ... might be a lot of opinions about what those semantic elements are.

... might be a lot of opinions about what those semantic elements are.

15:26:56 <ShaneM> ivan: I am afraid that we are discussing something where "the boat has already sailed".  The goal we have with HTML5+RDFa is to define a host language for RDFa 1.1.

Ivan Herman: I am afraid that we are discussing something where "the boat has already sailed". The goal we have with HTML5+RDFa is to define a host language for RDFa 1.1.

15:27:21 <ShaneM> ... that means make the minimal customizations.

... that means make the minimal customizations.

15:29:26 <ShaneM> ... Such a flag would require a change on all processors.  But it could cause a divergence between HTML+RDFa and XHTML+RDFa or SVG+RDFa.

... Such a flag would require a change on all processors. But it could cause a divergence between HTML+RDFa and XHTML+RDFa or SVG+RDFa.

15:30:44 <manu> ack gkellogg

Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg

15:30:46 <ShaneM> ... Finally, if we put in a flag like this we are opening up the floodgates.  We are introducing a way to modify the behavior of the processor from the document source.  If we proviide such a mechanism then we could end up with all sorts of additional requests for modificiations to the behavior.

... Finally, if we put in a flag like this we are opening up the floodgates. We are introducing a way to modify the behavior of the processor from the document source. If we proviide such a mechanism then we could end up with all sorts of additional requests for modificiations to the behavior.

15:31:01 <ShaneM> q+ to point out that lots of processors have "pragma" directives.

q+ to point out that lots of processors have "pragma" directives.

15:32:28 <ShaneM> gkellogg: Adding a property means modifying the document.  If you are modifying the document then why not just add the datatypes?  Is it because the content you are including in the document comes from elsewhere?

Gregg Kellogg: Adding a property means modifying the document. If you are modifying the document then why not just add the datatypes? Is it because the content you are including in the document comes from elsewhere?

15:33:07 <manu> q+ to ask if a processor flag would help for raptor?

Manu Sporny: q+ to ask if a processor flag would help for raptor?

15:33:54 <ShaneM> Heath: My documents are "xhtml".  In my world I want to preserve the markup.  It is well-formed XML.  Putting datatype on every element would have a cost.

Sebastian Heath: My documents are "xhtml". In my world I want to preserve the markup. It is well-formed XML. Putting datatype on every element would have a cost.

15:34:46 <ShaneM> ... I have beginning users doing this.  In 1.0 I didn't need to give them any guidance.  With 1.1 now those users need to decide whether datatype should be set or not.

... I have beginning users doing this. In 1.0 I didn't need to give them any guidance. With 1.1 now those users need to decide whether datatype should be set or not.

15:34:58 <niklasl> q+ to ask about when the choice of what is meaningful is to be made

Niklas Lindström: q+ to ask about when the choice of what is meaningful is to be made

15:35:22 <ShaneM> ... I realize there are ways to achieve this via pre-processing.  But I shouldn't have to do this for what is to me a simple, common use case.

... I realize there are ways to achieve this via pre-processing. But I shouldn't have to do this for what is to me a simple, common use case.

15:37:01 <ShaneM> ... The implementation mechanism is pretty clear in terms of logic if there were a property added.

... The implementation mechanism is pretty clear in terms of logic if there were a property added.

15:38:49 <ShaneM> ... I have real use cases and hope they are compelling.  The working group is doing something else that has effectively no use cases already.  That seems unfortunate.  There should be some way to accommodate this use case.

... I have real use cases and hope they are compelling. The working group is doing something else that has effectively no use cases already. That seems unfortunate. There should be some way to accommodate this use case.

15:39:34 <ShaneM> gkellogg: There are use cases for the itemref stuff.

Gregg Kellogg: There are use cases for the itemref stuff.

15:39:59 <manu> ack Shane_McCarron

Manu Sporny: ack Shane_McCarron

15:39:59 <Zakim> Shane_McCarron, you wanted to point out that lots of processors have "pragma" directives.

Zakim IRC Bot: Shane_McCarron, you wanted to point out that lots of processors have "pragma" directives.

15:40:45 <manu> Shane: I appreciate that people don't want to add a property. For those of you that have been involved in this for a long time, we have discussed this sort of thing before - a way to automatically modify the behavior of the processor through document content or profiles.

Shane McCarron: I appreciate that people don't want to add a property. For those of you that have been involved in this for a long time, we have discussed this sort of thing before - a way to automatically modify the behavior of the processor through document content or profiles. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:41:19 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:41:23 <manu> Shane: This isn't a new thing for us - every time we discuss it, we come to the decision that there is no way we could do it correctly. Most processors have #pragmas. I don't mind the concept of allowing a #pragma.

Shane McCarron: This isn't a new thing for us - every time we discuss it, we come to the decision that there is no way we could do it correctly. Most processors have #pragmas. I don't mind the concept of allowing a #pragma. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:41:36 <manu> Shane: I don't think we should say that we should never do this because it would open the floodgates.

Shane McCarron: I don't think we should say that we should never do this because it would open the floodgates. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:41:45 <manu> ack manu

Manu Sporny: ack manu

15:41:46 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to ask if a processor flag would help for raptor?

Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to ask if a processor flag would help for raptor?

15:41:49 <manu> ack niklasl

Manu Sporny: ack niklasl

15:41:49 <Zakim> niklasl, you wanted to ask about when the choice of what is meaningful is to be made

Zakim IRC Bot: niklasl, you wanted to ask about when the choice of what is meaningful is to be made

15:42:10 <manu> q+ to ask if a processor flag would help for raptor?

Manu Sporny: q+ to ask if a processor flag would help for raptor?

15:42:25 <ShaneM> niklasl: your needs to preserve the markup seems to be about it being hard in your situation what is meaningful when the markup is tagged.

Niklas Lindström: your needs to preserve the markup seems to be about it being hard in your situation what is meaningful when the markup is tagged.

15:43:09 <ShaneM> Heath: No - we know that it is all meaningful in my use case.

Sebastian Heath: No - we know that it is all meaningful in my use case.

15:43:38 <ShaneM> niklasl: And you have a way to do that with @datatype.

Niklas Lindström: And you have a way to do that with @datatype.

15:44:21 <ShaneM> Heath: Yes, and if that is the ultimate solution then I lose.  Because the rules for @datatype are confusing.  If there is @property you do one thing.  If there is @rel there is another.

Sebastian Heath: Yes, and if that is the ultimate solution then I lose. Because the rules for @datatype are confusing. If there is @property you do one thing. If there is @rel there is another.

15:45:05 <ShaneM> ... it is error prone.  Even experts will forget to put it on places.  No wysiwyg editor supports this, so people are going to be forced to use 'pointy brackets'.

... it is error prone. Even experts will forget to put it on places. No wysiwyg editor supports this, so people are going to be forced to use 'pointy brackets'.

15:46:17 <ShaneM> niklasl: We had lots of real world examples that caused us to change the behavior for RDFa 1.1.  Also, in RDFa 1.1 we have the ability to process the nested content, so we can't change the default behavior without breaking that.

Niklas Lindström: We had lots of real world examples that caused us to change the behavior for RDFa 1.1. Also, in RDFa 1.1 we have the ability to process the nested content, so we can't change the default behavior without breaking that.

15:47:13 <manu> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

15:48:21 <ShaneM> ivan: I would like to stop the discussion about default behavior.  We can't change it right now procedurally.  The only thing we could do now is introduce some sort of 'pragma' and have this feature as the first example of such a pragma.

Ivan Herman: I would like to stop the discussion about default behavior. We can't change it right now procedurally. The only thing we could do now is introduce some sort of 'pragma' and have this feature as the first example of such a pragma.

15:48:51 <ShaneM> ... this means such a departure for the processors that it can invalidate the behavior of all processors that are already deployed.

... this means such a departure for the processors that it can invalidate the behavior of all processors that are already deployed.

15:50:19 <ShaneM> manu: Straw polls....

Manu Sporny: Straw polls....

15:51:43 <manu> PROPOSAL: HTML+RDFa 1.1 should preserve markup as typed literals with the datatype "rdf:HTML" when emitting triples.

PROPOSED: HTML+RDFa 1.1 should preserve markup as typed literals with the datatype "rdf:HTML" when emitting triples.

15:51:49 <manu> -1

Manu Sporny: -1

15:51:52 <ivan> -1

Ivan Herman: -1

15:51:53 <niklasl> -1

Niklas Lindström: -1

15:51:54 <gkellogg> -1

Gregg Kellogg: -1

15:52:01 <ShaneM> Shane: -1

Shane McCarron: -1

15:52:09 <ShaneM> Heath: +1

Sebastian Heath: +1

15:53:07 <manu> PROPOSAL: Add a pragma directive to HTML+RDFa that switches the RDFa processor into a mode where markup is preserved as a typed literal with the datatype of "rdf:HTML" when emitting triples.

PROPOSED: Add a pragma directive to HTML+RDFa that switches the RDFa processor into a mode where markup is preserved as a typed literal with the datatype of "rdf:HTML" when emitting triples.

15:53:27 <gkellogg> +0.2

Gregg Kellogg: +0.2

15:53:28 <manu> +0

Manu Sporny: +0

15:53:29 <ShaneM> Heath: +1

Sebastian Heath: +1

15:53:33 <scor> +0

Stéphane Corlosquet: +0

15:53:48 <ivan> -1

Ivan Herman: -1

15:54:11 <ShaneM> Shane: +0

Shane McCarron: +0

15:54:23 <niklasl> +0

Niklas Lindström: +0

15:55:35 <niklasl> q+

Niklas Lindström: q+

15:55:51 <niklasl> q-

Niklas Lindström: q-

15:56:22 <manu> PROPOSAL: Allow RDFa processor authors to add a flag that allows a default datatype for complex markup to be set when invoking the processor.

PROPOSED: Allow RDFa processor authors to add a flag that allows a default datatype for complex markup to be set when invoking the processor.

15:56:25 <manu> +0.4

Manu Sporny: +0.4

15:56:32 <gkellogg> +0.2

Gregg Kellogg: +0.2

15:56:37 <ivan> +0.7

Ivan Herman: +0.7

15:56:53 <ShaneM> Shane: +0

Shane McCarron: +0

15:56:56 <niklasl> -1

Niklas Lindström: -1

15:57:28 <scor> +0.8

Stéphane Corlosquet: +0.8

15:59:08 <manu> RESOLVED: Allow RDFa processor authors to add a flag that allows a default datatype for complex markup to be set when invoking the processor.

RESOLVED: Allow RDFa processor authors to add a flag that allows a default datatype for complex markup to be set when invoking the processor.

16:03:50 <manu> Niklas: Future RDFa 2.0 could consider in-document pragmas, based on observing if a lot of energy is needed in the wild for keeping XML-literals. The same observance should be made about white-space preserving, inheriting language etc.

Niklas Lindström: Future RDFa 2.0 could consider in-document pragmas, based on observing if a lot of energy is needed in the wild for keeping XML-literals. The same observance should be made about white-space preserving, inheriting language etc. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

16:05:56 <Zakim> -manu

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu

16:05:57 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

16:05:57 <Zakim> - +1.347.439.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.347.439.aaaa

16:06:01 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

16:06:07 <Zakim> -scor

Zakim IRC Bot: -scor

16:06:08 <Zakim> -niklasl

Zakim IRC Bot: -niklasl

16:11:09 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Shane_McCarron, in SW_RDFa()10:00AM

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, Shane_McCarron, in SW_RDFa()10:00AM

16:11:12 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

16:11:12 <Zakim> Attendees were Shane_McCarron, niklasl, Ivan, gkellogg, +1.347.439.aaaa, manu, scor

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Shane_McCarron, niklasl, Ivan, gkellogg, +1.347.439.aaaa, manu, scor

16:12:58 <manu> rrsagent, make logs public

Manu Sporny: rrsagent, make logs public



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