None.
13:57:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-rdfa-irc ←
13:57:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:57:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332 ←
13:57:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes ←
13:57:16 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:57:16 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2011
13:57:59 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started ←
13:58:16 <manu1> Chair: Manu
13:58:19 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
13:58:32 <manu1> Present: Gregg, Sebastian, Shane, Steven, Thomas, Manu, Ted, Knud
13:58:32 <manu1> Guest: Henri (bergie) Bergius
13:58:32 <manu1> Guest: Stéphane (scor) Corlosquet
13:58:32 <gkellogg> zakim, ??P17 is gkellogg
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, ??P17 is gkellogg ←
13:58:32 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
13:58:50 <Zakim> + +358.405.25aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +358.405.25aaaa ←
13:59:22 <Zakim> +??P21
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21 ←
13:59:26 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P21
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P21 ←
13:59:26 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it ←
13:59:55 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call? ←
13:59:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, +358.405.25aaaa, manu1
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gkellogg, +358.405.25aaaa, manu1 ←
14:00:16 <manu1> zakim, aaaa is bergie
Manu Sporny: zakim, aaaa is bergie ←
14:00:17 <Zakim> +bergie; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bergie; got it ←
14:00:36 <Zakim> +Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud ←
14:01:22 <Steven_> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
14:01:22 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven_; the call is being made ←
14:01:23 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
14:01:38 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jun/0063.html
14:01:41 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code? ←
14:01:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed ←
14:01:47 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
14:01:53 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
14:01:53 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
14:01:55 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
14:01:55 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
14:02:26 <Zakim> +scor
Zakim IRC Bot: +scor ←
14:02:57 <scor> zakim, who is on the phone?
Stéphane Corlosquet: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:02:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud, Steven, MacTed (muted), scor
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud, Steven, MacTed (muted), scor ←
14:02:59 <Knud> zakim, mute me
Knud Möller: zakim, mute me ←
14:02:59 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted ←
14:03:51 <Zakim> +??P37
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37 ←
14:04:03 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud (muted), Steven, MacTed (muted), scor, ??P37
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud (muted), Steven, MacTed (muted), scor, ??P37 ←
14:04:25 <SebastianGermesin> zakim, i am +??P37+
Sebastian Germesin: zakim, i am +??P37+ ←
14:04:25 <Zakim> sorry, SebastianGermesin, I do not see a party named '+??P37+'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, SebastianGermesin, I do not see a party named '+??P37+' ←
14:04:42 <Steven_> zakim, who is on the call?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:04:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud (muted), Steven, MacTed (muted), scor, ??P37
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud (muted), Steven, MacTed (muted), scor, ??P37 ←
14:04:49 <SebastianGermesin> zakim, i am ??P37
Sebastian Germesin: zakim, i am ??P37 ←
14:04:49 <Zakim> +SebastianGermesin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SebastianGermesin; got it ←
14:06:10 <manu1> scribenick: Manu
(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)
14:06:10 <manu1> Manu: Any changes or updates to the agenda? Anything else we should discuss today? (no additions heard)
Manu Sporny: Any changes or updates to the agenda? Anything else we should discuss today? (no additions heard) ←
14:06:10 <manu1> Topic: Introductions: Henri Bergius
14:06:19 <Zakim> +tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac ←
14:06:22 <manu1> Henri: I am Henri Berguis - Web developer from Finland
Henri Bergius: I am Henri Berguis - Web developer from Finland ←
14:06:46 <manu1> Henri: Been doing web development since late 1990s, working w/ IKS project - building CMS tools that use RDFa to make pages editable and annotatable.
Henri Bergius: Been doing web development since late 1990s, working w/ IKS project - building CMS tools that use RDFa to make pages editable and annotatable. ←
14:07:08 <manu1> Henri: I am the author of the VIE library - reads RDFa from page, creates JavaScript for managing it in more CMS-friendly manner.
Henri Bergius: I am the author of the VIE library - reads RDFa from page, creates JavaScript for managing it in more CMS-friendly manner. ←
14:07:21 <Zakim> +??P39
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39 ←
14:07:31 <ShaneM> zakim, ??P39 is ShaneM
Shane McCarron: zakim, ??P39 is ShaneM ←
14:07:31 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←
14:07:36 <manu1> Henri: I am more focused on ensuring that RDFa is the format that all CMS systems can be used to describe content model and make content model editable.
Henri Bergius: I am more focused on ensuring that RDFa is the format that all CMS systems can be used to describe content model and make content model editable. ←
14:08:20 <manu1> Manu: Great to have you in the group - your JavaScript expertise is very welcome.
Manu Sporny: Great to have you in the group - your JavaScript expertise is very welcome. ←
14:08:48 <ShaneM> ScribeNick: ShaneM
(Scribe set to Shane McCarron)
14:08:48 <manu1> scribenick: ShaneM
14:09:20 <manu1> Henri: I am also collaborating with Sebastian.
Henri Bergius: I am also collaborating with Sebastian. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:09:34 <manu1> Topic: Official Position on WWW-TAG issue
14:10:24 <ShaneM> Manu: TAG is forming a task force to try to harmonize RDFa and Microdata.
Manu Sporny: TAG is forming a task force to try to harmonize RDFa and Microdata. ←
14:10:24 <ShaneM> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jun/0058.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jun/0058.html ←
14:10:35 <ShaneM> ... this is a discussion to find out how the group feels about the TAG finding and formulate a response.
... this is a discussion to find out how the group feels about the TAG finding and formulate a response. ←
14:10:36 <Steven_> q+
Steven Pemberton: q+ ←
14:10:46 <manu1> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
14:10:50 <bergie> q+
Henri Bergius: q+ ←
14:11:22 <manu1> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
14:11:23 <bergie> q-
Henri Bergius: q- ←
14:11:24 <tomayac> q+
Thomas Steiner: q+ ←
14:11:26 <ShaneM> Steven_: It is fine that the TAG has said this and it is an obvious step to unify all of the structured data languages. It will take a lot of the hassle away for Web Developers if it is successful...
Steven Pemberton: It is fine that the TAG has said this and it is an obvious step to unify all of the structured data languages. It will take a lot of the hassle away for Web Developers if it is successful... ←
14:11:43 <ShaneM> ... but we have spent years getting buy in for RDFa and then in a weekend microdata appeared with no community input.
... but we have spent years getting buy in for RDFa and then in a weekend microdata appeared with no community input. ←
14:11:51 <manu1> ack Steven_
Manu Sporny: ack Steven_ ←
14:12:01 <ShaneM> ... it is a subset of what we can do. But if we can get them on board to meet our usecases as well then that is a gain for the community.
... it is a subset of what we can do. But if we can get them on board to meet our usecases as well then that is a gain for the community. ←
14:12:08 <ShaneM> manu: I agree.
Manu Sporny: I agree. ←
14:13:03 <ShaneM> ... in the TAG the discussion was 'does everyone want 2 or 3 ways to do structured data on the web?' And the obvious answer is no. There is a lot of overlap and a lot of duplicate work for authors and parser developers.
... in the TAG the discussion was 'does everyone want 2 or 3 ways to do structured data on the web?' And the obvious answer is no. There is a lot of overlap and a lot of duplicate work for authors and parser developers. ←
14:13:09 <Steven_> q+
Steven Pemberton: q+ ←
14:13:30 <Zakim> -scor
Zakim IRC Bot: -scor ←
14:13:36 <manu1> ack manu1
Manu Sporny: ack manu1 ←
14:13:37 <ShaneM> ... we should recognize that unification is not what everyone wants here. The browser vendors may want to just support Microdata and to them that is 'unification'.
... we should recognize that unification is not what everyone wants here. The browser vendors may want to just support Microdata and to them that is 'unification'. ←
14:13:44 <Zakim> +scor
Zakim IRC Bot: +scor ←
14:13:55 <ShaneM> tomayac: might be painful for some, but probably the best thing to happen.
Thomas Steiner: might be painful for some, but probably the best thing to happen. ←
14:14:19 <manu1> q+ to explain: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/
Manu Sporny: q+ to explain: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/ ←
14:14:21 <ShaneM> ... a single format would be a great thing. What authors want is to get more structured data on the web.
... a single format would be a great thing. What authors want is to get more structured data on the web. ←
14:14:29 <manu1> ack tomayac
Manu Sporny: ack tomayac ←
14:14:52 <ShaneM> ... microdata came out of nowhere, but Google is supporting it (schema.org).
... microdata came out of nowhere, but Google is supporting it (schema.org). ←
14:15:27 <manu1> ack Steven_
Manu Sporny: ack Steven_ ←
14:15:35 <ShaneM> ... if there is one format this would be a good thing. I have seen some discussion of RDFa Lite. It might make it easier but would not reduce confusion. It would be a bad choice to do RDFa lite.
... if there is one format this would be a good thing. I have seen some discussion of RDFa Lite. It might make it easier but would not reduce confusion. It would be a bad choice to do RDFa lite. ←
14:16:09 <ShaneM> Steven_: A word of warning. Note that the same thing was supposed to happen with XForms and WebForms. There was a task force. But no one from the web browser side ever showed up at the meetings and nothing ever happened.
Steven Pemberton: A word of warning. Note that the same thing was supposed to happen with XForms and WebForms. There was a task force. But no one from the web browser side ever showed up at the meetings and nothing ever happened. ←
14:16:17 <ShaneM> manu: what would you suggest is done differently?
Manu Sporny: what would you suggest is done differently? ←
14:16:50 <scor> q+
Stéphane Corlosquet: q+ ←
14:16:51 <ShaneM> Steven_: Well... if they don't turn up then make it an issue in the Hypertext Coordinate Group or similar group. Keep a fire lit under them. Force them to turn up and do the work.
Steven Pemberton: Well... if they don't turn up then make it an issue in the Hypertext Coordinate Group or similar group. Keep a fire lit under them. Force them to turn up and do the work. ←
14:17:08 <ShaneM> ... suspect in the webforms case they deliberabely didn't turn up to allow the task force die a death.
... suspect in the webforms case they deliberabely didn't turn up to allow the task force die a death. ←
14:17:26 <manu1> ack manu1
Manu Sporny: ack manu1 ←
14:17:26 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to explain: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/
Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to explain: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/ ←
14:17:36 <ShaneM> manu: so we need to ensure they show up and there is buy in. Otherwise it will fail. But there are personalities that might not necessarily want to work together.
Manu Sporny: so we need to ensure they show up and there is buy in. Otherwise it will fail. But there are personalities that might not necessarily want to work together. ←
14:18:08 <ShaneM> manu: there seemed to be a lot of confusion about the overlap. I put together a comprehensive analysis of the formats. Updating as people give feedback.
Manu Sporny: there seemed to be a lot of confusion about the overlap. I put together a comprehensive analysis of the formats. Updating as people give feedback. ←
14:18:16 <ShaneM> ... fairly complete now.
... fairly complete now. ←
14:18:17 <manu1> http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/
Manu Sporny: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/ ←
14:18:18 <tomayac> manu1, really great work! thanks for doing it!
Thomas Steiner: manu1, really great work! thanks for doing it! ←
14:19:13 <ShaneM> scor: I have not seen anyone in the HTML5 community talking about this TAG task force. Is there anything going on there?
Stéphane Corlosquet: I have not seen anyone in the HTML5 community talking about this TAG task force. Is there anything going on there? ←
14:19:57 <ShaneM> manu: I have seem two responses that indicate that they hope this task force is as successful as the ones for XHTML2 and WebForms. Which is passive agressive, wanting the Task Force to fail, and very disappointing.
Manu Sporny: I have seem two responses that indicate that they hope this task force is as successful as the ones for XHTML2 and WebForms. Which is passive agressive, wanting the Task Force to fail, and very disappointing. ←
14:20:11 <ShaneM> ... it is important that we show them we want everyone working together on this.
... it is important that we show them we want everyone working together on this. ←
14:20:14 <ShaneM> q+
q+ ←
14:20:20 <manu1> ack scor
Manu Sporny: ack scor ←
14:20:54 <manu1> Shane: Does the TAG recognize that there is already a REC of RDFa?
Shane McCarron: Does the TAG recognize that there is already a REC of RDFa? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:21:11 <manu1> Manu: They recognize it, but they don't want that to get in the way of unifying structured data on the Web.
Manu Sporny: They recognize it, but they don't want that to get in the way of unifying structured data on the Web. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:21:33 <manu1> ShaneM: The goal here should be the expanded use of the semantic web, make it easier for people to put out meaningful semantic data in their content.
Shane McCarron: The goal here should be the expanded use of the semantic web, make it easier for people to put out meaningful semantic data in their content. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:21:52 <manu1> ShaneM:If that means throwing everything out and adopting Microdata - then that's the solution.
Shane McCarron: If that means throwing everything out and adopting Microdata - then that's the solution. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:21:56 <Steven_> q+
Steven Pemberton: q+ ←
14:22:21 <manu1> ShaneM:I see us being perfectly reasonable and making tweaks to address Microdata use cases, but I don't see WHAT WG changing or caring about unification.
Shane McCarron: I see us being perfectly reasonable and making tweaks to address Microdata use cases, but I don't see WHAT WG changing or caring about unification. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:23:01 <manu1> ShaneM:If there is no buy-in by Google, Schema.org - then we're going to waste six months... we need buy-in.
Shane McCarron: If there is no buy-in by Google, Schema.org - then we're going to waste six months... we need buy-in. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:23:04 <manu1> ack shanem
Manu Sporny: ack shanem ←
14:23:06 <manu1> ack steven_
Manu Sporny: ack steven_ ←
14:23:32 <ShaneM> Steven_: I would recommend that we let the TAG know we think that this is a good approach but we are pessemistic about the possibilities. point to the remarks from the HTML5 group.
Steven Pemberton: I would recommend that we let the TAG know we think that this is a good approach but we are pessemistic about the possibilities. point to the remarks from the HTML5 group. ←
14:23:52 <ShaneM> ... note that it has been tried before and it has failed. That we would particularly request support from them to put weight behind it.
... note that it has been tried before and it has failed. That we would particularly request support from them to put weight behind it. ←
14:24:06 <ShaneM> ... if all they do is start the task force and not follow up, the chances are high that it will just fail.
... if all they do is start the task force and not follow up, the chances are high that it will just fail. ←
14:24:43 <Steven_> q+
Steven Pemberton: q+ ←
14:24:53 <ShaneM> manu: we are perfectly willing to work with everyone to find a unified way forward, but if we don't get participation from everyone then it won't work.
Manu Sporny: we are perfectly willing to work with everyone to find a unified way forward, but if we don't get participation from everyone then it won't work. ←
14:24:57 <manu1> ack Steven_
Manu Sporny: ack Steven_ ←
14:25:16 <ShaneM> ... we would need agreement up front from everyone that whatever comes out is implemented and supported.
... we would need agreement up front from everyone that whatever comes out is implemented and supported. ←
14:25:37 <ShaneM> Steven_: Put in an objection against microdata+html5 as a last call comment?
Steven Pemberton: Put in an objection against microdata+html5 as a last call comment? ←
14:25:53 <scor> q+
Stéphane Corlosquet: q+ ←
14:27:59 <ShaneM> ShaneM: The TAG should really object to microdata and RDFa last call.
Shane McCarron: The TAG should really object to microdata and RDFa last call. ←
14:27:59 <manu1> ack scor
Manu Sporny: ack scor ←
14:28:45 <bergie_> scor: What is to stop HTML WG from forking Microdata and doing a Web Forms / HTML5 / etc. all over again?
Stéphane Corlosquet: What is to stop HTML WG from forking Microdata and doing a Web Forms / HTML5 / etc. all over again? [ Scribe Assist by Henri Bergius ] ←
14:28:47 <ShaneM> manu: there is nothing preventing that and is what will happen unless we get buy in from everybody.
Manu Sporny: there is nothing preventing that and is what will happen unless we get buy in from everybody. ←
14:29:26 <ShaneM> Steven_: There is some sort of moral pressure. Hixie has been threatening this all along... but some manufacturers dont support going off and doing in in WhatWG because of IP issues (if nothing else).
Steven Pemberton: There is some sort of moral pressure. Hixie has been threatening this all along... but some manufacturers dont support going off and doing in in WhatWG because of IP issues (if nothing else). ←
14:30:00 <ShaneM> ACTION: Manu to draft an official response for discussion on the mailing list
ACTION: Manu to draft an official response for discussion on the mailing list ←
14:30:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-85 - Draft an official response for discussion on the mailing list [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-07-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-85 - Draft an official response for discussion on the mailing list [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-07-07]. ←
14:30:08 <tomayac> +1
Thomas Steiner: +1 ←
14:30:09 <scor> +1
Stéphane Corlosquet: +1 ←
14:30:13 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
14:30:14 <Knud> +1
Knud Möller: +1 ←
14:30:23 <manu1> Topic: RDFa/Microdata Task Force Suggestions
14:31:06 <ShaneM> TAG is looking for suggestions on people who can be in the group. They are looking for people who are not too invested in the existing solutions.
TAG is looking for suggestions on people who can be in the group. They are looking for people who are not too invested in the existing solutions. ←
14:31:54 <ShaneM> ... don't want the people who are actually working on the specifications.
... don't want the people who are actually working on the specifications. ←
14:32:15 <ShaneM> ... Greg had mentioned Dan Brickley might be good. Philip Jägenstedt might be good.
... Greg had mentioned Dan Brickley might be good. Philip Jägenstedt might be good. ←
14:32:42 <ShaneM> ShaneM: Has Jeni volunteered?
Shane McCarron: Has Jeni volunteered? ←
14:32:59 <ShaneM> manu: no, but we need to get her there. It was her idea and she is able to talk about each approach in a fair manner.
Manu Sporny: no, but we need to get her there. It was her idea and she is able to talk about each approach in a fair manner. ←
14:33:37 <ShaneM> ... Richard Cyganiak might be a good candidate.
... Richard Cyganiak might be a good candidate. ←
14:33:53 <ShaneM> What about Nathan Rixham?
What about Nathan Rixham? ←
14:33:55 <gkellogg> Michael Hausenblas might be a good candidate
Gregg Kellogg: Michael Hausenblas might be a good candidate ←
14:34:15 <ShaneM> He has been hard to get lately, but we could ask him. Note that these people may be viewed as "RDF sympathizers"...
He has been hard to get lately, but we could ask him. Note that these people may be viewed as "RDF sympathizers"... ←
14:34:22 <manu1> Henri Sivonen might be good
Manu Sporny: Henri Sivonen might be good ←
14:35:01 <ShaneM> ShaneM: What's wrong with RDF people? Any solution that doesn't at the very least generate RDF would be bad, right?
Shane McCarron: What's wrong with RDF people? Any solution that doesn't at the very least generate RDF would be bad, right? ←
14:35:06 <manu1> RV Guha, Kavi Goel
Manu Sporny: RV Guha, Kavi Goel ←
14:35:20 <scor> Manu: we just need to balance, and have non-RDF people too
Manu Sporny: we just need to balance, and have non-RDF people too [ Scribe Assist by Stéphane Corlosquet ] ←
14:35:48 <ShaneM> Shane:I agree that we need balance
Shane McCarron: I agree that we need balance ←
14:35:57 <Steven_> Someone from Drupal?
Steven Pemberton: Someone from Drupal? ←
14:36:22 <manu1> Evan Sandhaus (NYT), Andreas Gebhardt (Getty), and Stuart Myles (Associated Press)
Manu Sporny: Evan Sandhaus (NYT), Andreas Gebhardt (Getty), and Stuart Myles (Associated Press) ←
14:36:54 <Steven_> Someone from Reuters?
Steven Pemberton: Someone from Reuters? ←
14:37:14 <ShaneM> Shane: What about Misha Wolf?
Shane McCarron: What about Misha Wolf? ←
14:37:23 <manu1> Gregg: Yves Raimond, Nick Humphrey - both from BBC might be good.
Gregg Kellogg: Yves Raimond, Nick Humphrey - both from BBC might be good. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:37:24 <Knud> From Drupal: how about Stepháne?
Knud Möller: From Drupal: how about Stepháne? ←
14:39:09 <scor> Facebook folks: David Recordon, Paul Tarjan
Stéphane Corlosquet: Facebook folks: David Recordon, Paul Tarjan ←
14:39:10 <ShaneM> ShaneM: remember that large groups have trouble making decisions. A task force of more than 5 people isn't going to decide anything.
Shane McCarron: remember that large groups have trouble making decisions. A task force of more than 5 people isn't going to decide anything. ←
14:39:33 <ShaneM> Steven_: Yes, but we need enough candidates so that when people say no we still have critical mass.
Steven Pemberton: Yes, but we need enough candidates so that when people say no we still have critical mass. ←
14:40:09 <manu1> Chris Messina, Brian Suda, Kevin Marks
Manu Sporny: Chris Messina, Brian Suda, Kevin Marks ←
14:40:31 <manu1> Steven: Jeni Tennison should Chair
Steven Pemberton: Jeni Tennison should Chair [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:40:35 <scor> +1
Stéphane Corlosquet: +1 ←
14:40:35 <ShaneM> Manu: Chair recommendations?
Manu Sporny: Chair recommendations? ←
14:40:37 <ShaneM> Shane: Jeni Tennison
Shane McCarron: Jeni Tennison ←
14:40:40 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
14:41:08 <manu1> Shane: Somebody from the TAG should Chair - Noah if Jeni can't do it.
Shane McCarron: Somebody from the TAG should Chair - Noah if Jeni can't do it. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:41:40 <manu1> Shane: Roland Merrick? He was great at getting stuff done.
Shane McCarron: Roland Merrick? He was great at getting stuff done. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:41:57 <ShaneM> ... note that he is retired, but we might persuade him.
... note that he is retired, but we might persuade him. ←
14:42:21 <ShaneM> ACTION: Manu deliver our list of suggestions to the TAG as people we think might be good participants in the group.
ACTION: Manu deliver our list of suggestions to the TAG as people we think might be good participants in the group. ←
14:42:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Deliver our list of suggestions to the TAG as people we think might be good participants in the group. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-07-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-86 - Deliver our list of suggestions to the TAG as people we think might be good participants in the group. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-07-07]. ←
14:42:53 <manu1> Topic: RDFa Linter
14:43:28 <ShaneM> gkellogg: had previously created a distiller that did rdfa, and more recently json-ld and microdata.
Gregg Kellogg: had previously created a distiller that did rdfa, and more recently json-ld and microdata. ←
14:43:54 <ShaneM> ... can generate whatever output. Approached by scor about expanding this work.
... can generate whatever output. Approached by scor about expanding this work. ←
14:44:07 <ShaneM> ... new thing in git that can parse any format, and produce a rich snippet view.
... new thing in git that can parse any format, and produce a rich snippet view. ←
14:44:40 <ShaneM> ... in theory can take disgested forms of vocabularies and do some analysis to help people use the vocabularies correctly.
... in theory can take disgested forms of vocabularies and do some analysis to help people use the vocabularies correctly. ←
14:45:06 <ShaneM> scor: Had an idea to generalize the thing that FB promoted at http://developers.facebook.com/tools/lint/
Stéphane Corlosquet: Had an idea to generalize the thing that FB promoted at http://developers.facebook.com/tools/lint/ ←
14:45:27 <gkellogg> Existing distiller: http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller
Gregg Kellogg: Existing distiller: http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller ←
14:45:48 <ShaneM> ... do some work to help with use of schema.org or sioc or whatever. show that rdfa is on par with microdata
... do some work to help with use of schema.org or sioc or whatever. show that rdfa is on par with microdata ←
14:45:49 <gkellogg> Select 'rdfa' as output format.
Gregg Kellogg: Select 'rdfa' as output format. ←
14:46:10 <ShaneM> ... like a unified linter that will also show what search engines might do with your data.
... like a unified linter that will also show what search engines might do with your data. ←
14:46:15 <manu1> q+ to discuss why this is important
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss why this is important ←
14:46:34 <manu1> ack manu1
Manu Sporny: ack manu1 ←
14:46:34 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss why this is important
Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss why this is important ←
14:46:37 <ShaneM> ... not yet published, but hopefully will have something by this time next week.
... not yet published, but hopefully will have something by this time next week. ←
14:46:54 <ShaneM> manu: one of the great things is that we have not traditionally had tools like this, and that has hurt us.
Manu Sporny: one of the great things is that we have not traditionally had tools like this, and that has hurt us. ←
14:47:09 <ShaneM> ... we have been working hard, but we need all the tools in the ecosystem to be successful.
... we have been working hard, but we need all the tools in the ecosystem to be successful. ←
14:47:16 <ShaneM> ... fantastic that you have taken the intiative.
... fantastic that you have taken the intiative. ←
14:47:35 <scor> q+
Stéphane Corlosquet: q+ ←
14:47:58 <ShaneM> ... raises the question of where we put the tool when it is done. I want to see the best coalesce on one site. rdfa.info. need to put that in a git hub and set it up so people can hack on it.
... raises the question of where we put the tool when it is done. I want to see the best coalesce on one site. rdfa.info. need to put that in a git hub and set it up so people can hack on it. ←
14:48:11 <ShaneM> ... we need a central place where I can learn about RDFa, test it, etc.
... we need a central place where I can learn about RDFa, test it, etc. ←
14:48:29 <ShaneM> q+
q+ ←
14:48:43 <ShaneM> scor: I agree that the rdfa community has been lacking a central place.
Stéphane Corlosquet: I agree that the rdfa community has been lacking a central place. ←
14:49:10 <ShaneM> ... I am not sure that the linter, for example, should be RDFa only or advertised as such. It can do microdata as well.
... I am not sure that the linter, for example, should be RDFa only or advertised as such. It can do microdata as well. ←
14:49:22 <ShaneM> ... I dont want to fragment the community.
... I dont want to fragment the community. ←
14:49:24 <manu1> Maybe we should have structured-data.org ?
Manu Sporny: Maybe we should have structured-data.org ? ←
14:49:51 <manu1> ack scor
Manu Sporny: ack scor ←
14:49:59 <manu1> q+ to say no to RDFa-only.
Manu Sporny: q+ to say no to RDFa-only. ←
14:50:27 <manu1> ack shanem
Manu Sporny: ack shanem ←
14:50:58 <ShaneM> ShaneM: Didn't we agree that we only wanted to have pointers to things, not necessarily that we would have the all the code in one place?
Shane McCarron: Didn't we agree that we only wanted to have pointers to things, not necessarily that we would have the all the code in one place? ←
14:51:12 <scor> schema-linter.org
Stéphane Corlosquet: schema-linter.org ←
14:51:17 <ShaneM> manu: yes, we did agree that. I had forgotten. Pointers to good tools well integrated would be sufficient.
Manu Sporny: yes, we did agree that. I had forgotten. Pointers to good tools well integrated would be sufficient. ←
14:51:41 <bergie_> data-on-web.org?
Henri Bergius: data-on-web.org? ←
14:51:43 <scor> structured-data.org/linter
Stéphane Corlosquet: structured-data.org/linter ←
14:52:09 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
14:52:44 <manu1> Topic: Thoughts on RDFa Basic vs. RDFa Advanced
14:52:56 <manu1> http://manu.sporny.org/rdfa/rdfa-core-simplified/diff-20110331.html
Manu Sporny: http://manu.sporny.org/rdfa/rdfa-core-simplified/diff-20110331.html ←
14:55:26 <Zakim> -tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac ←
14:55:48 <Zakim> +tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac ←
14:55:48 <ShaneM> Manu explains why a single spec with a Basic and Advanced level might be a good solution if it covers the microdata use cases.
Manu explains why a single spec with a Basic and Advanced level might be a good solution if it covers the microdata use cases. ←
14:56:09 <ShaneM> scor: do we need a new name that doesn't include 'RDF' so people are not confused or scared.
Stéphane Corlosquet: do we need a new name that doesn't include 'RDF' so people are not confused or scared. ←
14:56:23 <scor> sData?
Stéphane Corlosquet: sData? ←
14:56:36 <tomayac> minidata, a lil' bigger than microdata ;-)
Thomas Steiner: minidata, a lil' bigger than microdata ;-) ←
14:56:36 <scor> for structuredData
Stéphane Corlosquet: for structuredData ←
14:56:44 <gkellogg> *lda*
Gregg Kellogg: *lda* ←
14:56:44 <ShaneM> manu: do we need to rebrand? To something like: "Structure" or structured-data.org (or the suggestions above). I am in favor of doing this. Some people are scared of the letters 'RDF'. people who understand will know that the new thing still does RDF.
Manu Sporny: do we need to rebrand? To something like: "Structure" or structured-data.org (or the suggestions above). I am in favor of doing this. Some people are scared of the letters 'RDF'. people who understand will know that the new thing still does RDF. ←
14:57:21 <scor> q+
Stéphane Corlosquet: q+ ←
14:57:28 <manu1> ack manu1
Manu Sporny: ack manu1 ←
14:57:28 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to say no to RDFa-only.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to say no to RDFa-only. ←
14:57:34 <ShaneM> ... if the task force is successful, does anyone have an issue with rebranding?
... if the task force is successful, does anyone have an issue with rebranding? ←
14:57:35 <manu1> ack scor
Manu Sporny: ack scor ←
14:57:39 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
14:58:05 <manu1> zakim, who is making noise?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is making noise? ←
14:58:15 <Zakim> manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tomayac (25%), manu1 (9%), scor (64%)
Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tomayac (25%), manu1 (9%), scor (64%) ←
14:58:21 <manu1> zakim, mute tomayac
Manu Sporny: zakim, mute tomayac ←
14:58:21 <Zakim> tomayac should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: tomayac should now be muted ←
14:58:28 <Zakim> -bergie
Zakim IRC Bot: -bergie ←
14:58:51 <ShaneM> scor: if we rebrand does that mean we don't need to be backward compatible?
Stéphane Corlosquet: if we rebrand does that mean we don't need to be backward compatible? ←
14:59:14 <scor> +1 for rebranding
Stéphane Corlosquet: +1 for rebranding ←
14:59:14 <Steven_> +1 to that
Steven Pemberton: +1 to that ←
14:59:17 <ShaneM> manu: not necessarily. I think we need some sort of backwards compatibility if there is to be an RDFa 1.1 - but that's why we're talking about Basic and Advanced levels. The Basic level could break backwards compatibility.
Manu Sporny: not necessarily. I think we need some sort of backwards compatibility if there is to be an RDFa 1.1 - but that's why we're talking about Basic and Advanced levels. The Basic level could break backwards compatibility. ←
14:59:30 <Knud> rebranding sounds good
Knud Möller: rebranding sounds good ←
14:59:33 <Knud> +1
Knud Möller: +1 ←
14:59:33 <tomayac> -1
Thomas Steiner: -1 ←
14:59:34 <Zakim> +bergie
Zakim IRC Bot: +bergie ←
14:59:38 <SebastianGermesin> +1
Sebastian Germesin: +1 ←
14:59:43 <SebastianGermesin> for rebranding
Sebastian Germesin: for rebranding ←
14:59:47 <bergie_> +1 for rebranding if we get one unified spec
Henri Bergius: +1 for rebranding if we get one unified spec ←
14:59:55 <ShaneM> +1 to represent the unification
+1 to represent the unification ←
14:59:57 <manu1> +1 for rebranding if we have a unified spec.
Manu Sporny: +1 for rebranding if we have a unified spec. ←
15:00:07 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:00:21 <tomayac> +1 if unified, of course
Thomas Steiner: +1 if unified, of course ←
15:00:49 <scor> zakim, who is making noise?
Stéphane Corlosquet: zakim, who is making noise? ←
15:00:55 <ShaneM> Group seems to agree that it is good to rebrand if there is a unified spec going forward.
Group seems to agree that it is good to rebrand if there is a unified spec going forward. ←
15:01:02 <ShaneM> No one seems to want to fight unification.
No one seems to want to fight unification. ←
15:01:04 <Zakim> scor, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bergie (9%), manu1 (54%), Steven (14%)
Zakim IRC Bot: scor, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bergie (9%), manu1 (54%), Steven (14%) ←
15:01:09 <ShaneM> q+
q+ ←
15:01:23 <ShaneM> ... it is up to the other communities to come to the table.
... it is up to the other communities to come to the table. ←
15:01:25 <manu1> ack gkellogg
Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg ←
15:01:36 <manu1> zakim, mute steven
Manu Sporny: zakim, mute steven ←
15:01:36 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven should now be muted ←
15:01:40 <ShaneM> Steven_: Since what they have is a subset of what we have, all we need to do is find a way to make them happy.
Steven Pemberton: Since what they have is a subset of what we have, all we need to do is find a way to make them happy. ←
15:01:42 <manu1> zakim, unmute steven
Manu Sporny: zakim, unmute steven ←
15:01:42 <Zakim> Steven should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven should no longer be muted ←
15:01:45 <Steven_> (for the minutes I was doing +1 to rebranding the unified version)
Steven Pemberton: (for the minutes I was doing +1 to rebranding the unified version) ←
15:01:47 <manu1> zakim, mute bergie
Manu Sporny: zakim, mute bergie ←
15:01:49 <Steven_> zakim, who is noisy?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is noisy? ←
15:01:50 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should now be muted ←
15:02:03 <Zakim> Steven_, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven_, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds ←
15:02:09 <ShaneM> gkellogg: If there are objections to syntactic choices that we made historically, then we need to be willing to move on that.
Gregg Kellogg: If there are objections to syntactic choices that we made historically, then we need to be willing to move on that. ←
15:02:29 <bergie_> manu1: sorry about that, new phone (MeeGo, comes with RDF!)
Manu Sporny: sorry about that, new phone (MeeGo, comes with RDF!) [ Scribe Assist by Henri Bergius ] ←
15:02:40 <ShaneM> ... one of the things that makes RDFa challenging is that we can't have @rel and @typeof on the same element. This is one place where microdata is better.
... one of the things that makes RDFa challenging is that we can't have @rel and @typeof on the same element. This is one place where microdata is better. ←
15:02:48 <manu1> ack shanem
Manu Sporny: ack shanem ←
15:03:00 <ShaneM> ... if w are unifying somehting new might be a different language and backward compatibilty is not important.
... if w are unifying something new might be a different language and backward compatibilty is not important. ←
15:03:17 <Steven_> s/hting/thing/
15:03:53 <manu1> Shane: You guys said that given RDFa and RDF is a super-set of what Microdata and Microformats have, all we need to do is find a way to satisfy objections. The first job of the TF is to agree that whatever solution is put in place has the "force of law"
Shane McCarron: You guys said that given RDFa and RDF is a super-set of what Microdata and Microformats have, all we need to do is find a way to satisfy objections. The first job of the TF is to agree that whatever solution is put in place has the "force of law" [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:04:27 <manu1> Shane: If the TF agrees - everyone goes and does that. Either this WG goes away and a new one is created - or the HTML5+Microdata activity goes away - at some point, some one needs to stop work or combine work.
Shane McCarron: If the TF agrees - everyone goes and does that. Either this WG goes away and a new one is created - or the HTML5+Microdata activity goes away - at some point, some one needs to stop work or combine work. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:04:44 <manu1> Shane: Nobody here is objecting to the concept of having one path forward for Web developers.
Shane McCarron: Nobody here is objecting to the concept of having one path forward for Web developers. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:05:05 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:05:06 <manu1> Shane: I think it's naive to say that "We can persuade WHATWG that RDFa is the solution."
Shane McCarron: I think it's naive to say that "We can persuade WHATWG that RDFa is the solution." [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:05:15 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:05:50 <manu1> Ted: It would be nice to see a summary of use cases that are satisfied by RDFa 1.1 and not satisfied by Microformats and Microdata.
Ted Thibodeau: It would be nice to see a summary of use cases that are satisfied by RDFa 1.1 and not satisfied by Microformats and Microdata. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:06:14 <ShaneM> manu: we have tried this and the whatwg says "we are not interested in those use cases".
Manu Sporny: we have tried this and the whatwg says "we are not interested in those use cases". ←
15:06:17 <tomayac> +1 on what MacTed just said
Thomas Steiner: +1 on what MacTed just said ←
15:06:17 <scor> q+
Stéphane Corlosquet: q+ ←
15:06:22 <ShaneM> Steven_: But that's what the unification is about.
Steven Pemberton: But that's what the unification is about. ←
15:06:28 <manu1> ack scor
Manu Sporny: ack scor ←
15:06:38 <bergie_> q+
Henri Bergius: q+ ←
15:06:40 <ShaneM> MacTed: The point is that there is a superset and we need to adress them all.
Ted Thibodeau: The point is that there is a superset and we need to adress them all. ←
15:07:14 <manu1> ack bergie_
Manu Sporny: ack bergie_ ←
15:07:24 <gkellogg> MD has problems with items with multi, or no types
Gregg Kellogg: MD has problems with items with multi, or no types ←
15:07:29 <ShaneM> scor: one problem is that microdata items can only have one type. multi-typing is important. we can probably find use cases that support that.
Stéphane Corlosquet: one problem is that microdata items can only have one type. multi-typing is important. we can probably find use cases that support that. ←
15:07:39 <manu1> zakim, unmute bergie
Manu Sporny: zakim, unmute bergie ←
15:07:39 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should no longer be muted ←
15:07:55 <scor> multi vocabularies is another use case too
Stéphane Corlosquet: multi vocabularies is another use case too ←
15:08:12 <ShaneM> bergie_: Important use case is that hte data is something that can be reliable edited and sent back to the server. microformats are not good for that. microdata is so-so.
Henri Bergius: Important use case is that hte data is something that can be reliable edited and sent back to the server. microformats are not good for that. microdata is so-so. ←
15:08:19 <ShaneM> manu: that's a good use case. We have not had that one before.
Manu Sporny: that's a good use case. We have not had that one before. ←
15:08:27 <manu1> zakim, mute bergie
Manu Sporny: zakim, mute bergie ←
15:08:27 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should now be muted ←
15:08:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:08:35 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:08:40 <ShaneM> scor: multi-vocabuliaries on the same statement.
Stéphane Corlosquet: multi-vocabuliaries on the same statement. ←
15:08:40 <ShaneM> Manu: Alright, we're out of time for today, but let's take some of this discussion to the mailing list and I'll follow up with the TAG.
Manu Sporny: Alright, we're out of time for today, but let's take some of this discussion to the mailing list and I'll follow up with the TAG. ←
15:09:03 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
15:09:03 <Zakim> -Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud ←
15:09:05 <Zakim> -tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac ←
15:09:06 <Zakim> -scor
Zakim IRC Bot: -scor ←
15:09:06 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
15:09:09 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
15:09:10 <Zakim> -SebastianGermesin
Zakim IRC Bot: -SebastianGermesin ←
15:09:11 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
15:09:13 <Zakim> -manu1
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu1 ←
15:09:15 <Zakim> -bergie
Zakim IRC Bot: -bergie ←
15:09:17 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended ←
15:09:19 <Zakim> Attendees were gkellogg, +358.405.25aaaa, manu1, bergie, Knud, Steven, MacTed, scor, SebastianGermesin, tomayac, ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were gkellogg, +358.405.25aaaa, manu1, bergie, Knud, Steven, MacTed, scor, SebastianGermesin, tomayac, ShaneM ←
Formatted by CommonScribe