13:56:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-rdfa-irc ←
13:56:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:56:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332 ←
13:56:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes ←
13:56:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:56:57 <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2011
13:59:40 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011May/0058.html
13:59:45 <manu> Present: Manu, Benjamin, Shane, Thomas, Ted, Ivan
14:00:58 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:00:58 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, manu
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, manu ←
14:00:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot ←
14:01:11 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
14:01:11 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
14:01:36 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
14:01:36 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, ivan ←
14:01:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot ←
14:01:52 <manu> zakim, I am ??manu
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??manu ←
14:01:53 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??manu'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??manu' ←
14:07:53 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code? ←
14:07:53 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed ←
14:08:10 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7332
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, this is 7332 ←
14:08:10 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFa()10:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFa()10:00AM ←
14:08:11 <Benjamin> zakim, who is on the phone
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, who is on the phone ←
14:08:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Benjamin
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Benjamin ←
14:08:14 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
14:08:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tom, ??P13, Ivan, ??P28, OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tom, ??P13, Ivan, ??P28, OpenLink_Software ←
14:08:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see Benjamin, Zakim, RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Benjamin, Zakim, RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot ←
14:08:22 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
14:08:22 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
14:08:24 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
14:08:24 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
14:09:00 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
14:09:11 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P28 (91%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P28 (91%) ←
14:09:20 <MacTed> Zakim, ??p28 is Benjamin
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, ??p28 is Benjamin ←
14:09:20 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Benjamin; got it ←
14:09:24 <MacTed> Zakim, mute Benjamin
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute Benjamin ←
14:09:25 <manu> zakim, I am ??P13
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P13 ←
14:09:26 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted ←
14:09:28 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
14:10:07 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me ←
14:10:07 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted ←
14:10:15 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me ←
14:10:15 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted ←
14:12:59 <ivan> scribenick: ivan
(Scribe set to Ivan Herman)
14:13:47 <ivan> topic: RDF Interfaces publication
14:14:09 <ivan> manu: we had a good publication, and also a semanticweb.com piece on the documents
Manu Sporny: we had a good publication, and also a semanticweb.com piece on the documents ←
14:14:10 <manu> http://semanticweb.com/on-various-rdf-api-s%E2%80%A6_b19815
Manu Sporny: http://semanticweb.com/on-various-rdf-api-s%E2%80%A6_b19815 ←
14:14:40 <Benjamin> Thank you Ivan for writing this article !!!
Benjamin Adrian: Thank you Ivan for writing this article !!! ←
14:15:45 <ivan> manu: ivan, you sent an email that there is a publishing moratorium next week
Manu Sporny: ivan, you sent an email that there is a publishing moratorium next week ←
14:16:07 <ivan> ... it gives us a little bit more time to review Ben's document on RDF API
... it gives us a little bit more time to review Ben's document on RDF API ←
14:16:15 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me ←
14:16:15 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted ←
14:16:15 <ivan> ... speaking of...
... speaking of... ←
14:16:18 <manu> Topic: Update on spec progress
14:17:01 <ivan> Benjamin: I fixed the examples, changed the environment to 'Data'
Benjamin Adrian: I fixed the examples, changed the environment to 'Data' ←
14:17:06 <ivan> ... I fixed the WebIDL
... I fixed the WebIDL ←
14:17:13 <ivan> ... otherwise I did not make many changes
... otherwise I did not make many changes ←
14:17:14 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/ ←
14:17:26 <ivan> ... what is left: prose/flow has to be fixed,
... what is left: prose/flow has to be fixed, ←
14:17:37 <ivan> ... we have to discuss the projection, based on the email discussion
... we have to discuss the projection, based on the email discussion ←
14:17:55 <ivan> Benjamin: I added the set method to the projection
Benjamin Adrian: I added the set method to the projection ←
14:18:00 <ivan> ... there are some issues on that
... there are some issues on that ←
14:18:25 <Benjamin> open issues on projections are:
Benjamin Adrian: open issues on projections are: ←
14:18:37 <Benjamin> nested projections
Benjamin Adrian: nested projections ←
14:19:11 <ivan> q+
q+ ←
14:19:27 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me ←
14:19:27 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted ←
14:19:36 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:19:51 <manu> Manu: The reason we do not allow nested projections is that it is difficult to figure out where top stop travelling down the nested tree. If you have a graph with a billion triples and you build a projection for a subject, do you include all 500 million links? If you nest them, how do you do so (depth-first vs. breadth first)? These raise very complicated implementation questions that will inevitably make the spec more complicated than necessary. Let's not include the ability to do multiple-levels of projections. If a developer wants to get a relationship, they can just perform another query and build another Projection.
Manu Sporny: The reason we do not allow nested projections is that it is difficult to figure out where top stop travelling down the nested tree. If you have a graph with a billion triples and you build a projection for a subject, do you include all 500 million links? If you nest them, how do you do so (depth-first vs. breadth first)? These raise very complicated implementation questions that will inevitably make the spec more complicated than necessary. Let's not include the ability to do multiple-levels of projections. If a developer wants to get a relationship, they can just perform another query and build another Projection. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:20:02 <manu> Ivan: Doing automatic projection generation is not a good idea, for all the reasons that Manu said.
Ivan Herman: Doing automatic projection generation is not a good idea, for all the reasons that Manu said. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:20:40 <manu> Ivan: Niklas wanted one more method where when one looks at a triple w/ a URIRef, then what you get back is a Projection for that object being the subject. It's strictly a one-step indirection.
Ivan Herman: Niklas wanted one more method where when one looks at a triple w/ a URIRef, then what you get back is a Projection for that object being the subject. It's strictly a one-step indirection. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:20:55 <manu> ... it may help to get over the situation where you have the duality of string vs. object.
Manu Sporny: ... it may help to get over the situation where you have the duality of string vs. object. ←
14:21:15 <manu> ... it helps to overcome that and this is a fairly natural thing to do. It's fairly natural when the object in question is a blank node.
Manu Sporny: ... it helps to overcome that and this is a fairly natural thing to do. It's fairly natural when the object in question is a blank node. ←
14:21:16 <Benjamin> e.g., ben = ivan.getRel("foaf:knows")
Benjamin Adrian: e.g., ben = ivan.getRel("foaf:knows") ←
14:21:42 <manu> Manu: What's the return type?
Manu Sporny: What's the return type? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:21:47 <manu> sequence of Projections or Projection? I think it's a sequence.
Manu Sporny: sequence of Projections or Projection? I think it's a sequence. ←
14:22:02 <Benjamin> q+ do we really need this?
Benjamin Adrian: q+ do we really need this? ←
14:22:47 <Benjamin> q+
Benjamin Adrian: q+ ←
14:22:47 <ivan> manu: we had a choice on to get the 'first' or all in a sequence.. that's why we have .get() vs. .getAll(). The same should apply to .getRel() or .getRels()?
Manu Sporny: we had a choice on to get the 'first' or all in a sequence.. that's why we have .get() vs. .getAll(). The same should apply to .getRel() or .getRels()? ←
14:22:50 <manu> ack Benjamin
Manu Sporny: ack Benjamin ←
14:22:51 <ivan> ... maybe that is what we need?
... maybe that is what we need? ←
14:22:54 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me ←
14:22:54 <Zakim> Benjamin was not muted, Benjamin
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin was not muted, Benjamin ←
14:23:03 <ivan> Benjamin: I do not think we really we need this feature
Benjamin Adrian: I do not think we really we need this feature ←
14:23:16 <ivan> ... it is not a big deal to do it manually
... it is not a big deal to do it manually ←
14:23:36 <ivan> ... even in the case of a blank node you get what you were looking for.
... even in the case of a blank node you get what you were looking for. ←
14:23:37 <manu> What about _:bnode1?
Manu Sporny: What about _:bnode1? ←
14:23:56 <ivan> manu: How do we express the uri for a blank node?
Manu Sporny: How do we express the uri for a blank node? ←
14:24:02 <ivan> ... we get only strings and native datatypes back from a projection
... we get only strings and native datatypes back from a projection ←
14:24:15 <ivan> ... the projections are not for low level objects
... the projections are not for low level objects ←
14:24:34 <ivan> ... we cannot get the difference between an IRI reference and a string
... we cannot get the difference between an IRI reference and a string ←
14:24:47 <ivan> ... if we were able to get the difference, then you are right, it does not matter
... if we were able to get the difference, then you are right, it does not matter ←
14:24:58 <ivan> ... not being able to determine the type of an object is a reason that we may want to have getRel()...
... not being able to determine the type of an object is a reason that we may want to have getRel()... ←
14:25:06 <tomayac> is it an issue in practice? we had this in the JSON discussions as well. some serializations cared, most simply didn't...
Thomas Steiner: is it an issue in practice? we had this in the JSON discussions as well. some serializations cared, most simply didn't... ←
14:25:23 <manu> var knows = ivan.get("foaf:knows");
Manu Sporny: var knows = ivan.get("foaf:knows"); ←
14:25:36 <manu> knows == "http://manu.sporny.org/webid"
Manu Sporny: knows == "http://manu.sporny.org/webid" ←
14:26:10 <manu> data.getProjection("http://manu.sporny.org/webid")
Manu Sporny: data.getProjection("http://manu.sporny.org/webid") ←
14:26:49 <ivan> manu: Nevermind, thinking through it - we can just use strings. I now agree with Benjamin, we really do not need getRel() when dealing with IRIs.
Manu Sporny: Nevermind, thinking through it - we can just use strings. I now agree with Benjamin, we really do not need getRel() when dealing with IRIs. ←
14:27:06 <manu> Now, what about blank nodes?
Manu Sporny: Now, what about blank nodes? ←
14:27:09 <ivan> manu: for a blank node
Manu Sporny: for a blank node ←
14:27:13 <manu> knows == "_:bnode2"
Manu Sporny: knows == "_:bnode2" ←
14:27:26 <manu> data.getProjection("_:bnode2") ?? Is this what we should do?
Manu Sporny: data.getProjection("_:bnode2") ?? Is this what we should do? ←
14:27:28 <Benjamin> why not: bnode1 = ivan.get("foaf:knows")
Benjamin Adrian: why not: bnode1 = ivan.get("foaf:knows") ←
14:27:28 <Benjamin> ben = data.getProjection(bnode1)
Benjamin Adrian: ben = data.getProjection(bnode1) ←
14:27:36 <ivan> q+
q+ ←
14:28:01 <ivan> manu: the reason I am concerned is because the blank node names change when you merge multiple graph together...
Manu Sporny: the reason I am concerned is because the blank node names change when you merge multiple graph together... ←
14:28:11 <ivan> ... what happens then to the bnodes?
... what happens then to the bnodes? ←
14:28:57 <ivan> ... the two graphs that are merged then things may go wrong because _:bnode1 may not point at the data you are thinking about
... the two graphs that are merged then things may go wrong because _:bnode1 may not point at the data you are thinking about ←
14:29:03 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:29:11 <manu> Ivan: That's the same issue I have w/ this.
Ivan Herman: That's the same issue I have w/ this. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:29:24 <manu> Ivan: If we have bnodes, we are going to have to deal with them...
Ivan Herman: If we have bnodes, we are going to have to deal with them... [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:29:37 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:29:37 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
14:29:42 <manu> Ivan: It's a potentially dangerous thing to do.
Ivan Herman: It's a potentially dangerous thing to do. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:29:56 <manu> Ted: I think that this is a guidance question...
Ted Thibodeau: I think that this is a guidance question... [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:30:14 <ivan> MacTed: blank nodes exist, but if we say if you can avoid using bnodes, do so
Ted Thibodeau: blank nodes exist, but if we say if you can avoid using bnodes, do so ←
14:30:15 <ivan> q+
q+ ←
14:30:21 <manu> ack Ivan
Manu Sporny: ack Ivan ←
14:30:28 <manu> Ivan: I don't disagree with that, Ted
Ivan Herman: I don't disagree with that, Ted [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:30:43 <Benjamin> q+ to ask if getRel and getRev really solve this?
Benjamin Adrian: q+ to ask if getRel and getRev really solve this? ←
14:31:03 <manu> Ivan: However, if we keep to the examples of FOAF, the semantic web is full of bnodes... it's an issue that will be widespread - we should try to be as fool-proof as we can.
Ivan Herman: However, if we keep to the examples of FOAF, the semantic web is full of bnodes... it's an issue that will be widespread - we should try to be as fool-proof as we can. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:31:07 <manu> ack Benjamin
Manu Sporny: ack Benjamin ←
14:31:07 <Zakim> Benjamin, you wanted to ask if getRel and getRev really solve this?
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin, you wanted to ask if getRel and getRev really solve this? ←
14:31:37 <ivan> Benjamin: if we have a subject and an object as bnodes
Benjamin Adrian: if we have a subject and an object as bnodes ←
14:31:43 <ivan> ... it is just the same problem...
... it is just the same problem... ←
14:31:45 <ivan> q+
q+ ←
14:31:50 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:31:51 <tomayac> maybe stupid idea: if we have a bnode, serialize it as a JSON-LD object, run a hash function over the JSON.stringified version of it, and give the bnode a uri at fixed.example.org/.well-known/{hash_result}
Thomas Steiner: maybe stupid idea: if we have a bnode, serialize it as a JSON-LD object, run a hash function over the JSON.stringified version of it, and give the bnode a uri at fixed.example.org/.well-known/{hash_result} ←
14:32:05 <manu> q+ to wonder whether or not "it's the same problem w/ JavaScript"
Manu Sporny: q+ to wonder whether or not "it's the same problem w/ JavaScript" ←
14:32:27 <tomayac> this would allow us to compare bnodes easily
Thomas Steiner: this would allow us to compare bnodes easily ←
14:32:30 <manu> Yes, but I don't think this is a bnode comparison problem, is it? It's a "oh crap, I lost the reference to the bnode because it was renamed" problem...
Manu Sporny: Yes, but I don't think this is a bnode comparison problem, is it? It's a "oh crap, I lost the reference to the bnode because it was renamed" problem... ←
14:33:06 <manu> Ivan: Maybe everything will be renumbered at runtime... you can never rely on a bnode ID after a graph merge, etc.
Ivan Herman: Maybe everything will be renumbered at runtime... you can never rely on a bnode ID after a graph merge, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:33:21 <manu> Ivan: The only thing you can ask is "is this a bnode" and "are these two bnodes the same"?
Ivan Herman: The only thing you can ask is "is this a bnode" and "are these two bnodes the same"? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:34:17 <ivan> Benjamin: the only time this is an issue is at parse-time
Benjamin Adrian: the only time this is an issue is at parse-time ←
14:34:28 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me ←
14:34:28 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted ←
14:34:36 <ivan> manu: but at the lower level we do a bunch of graph merges, it's not just a parse-time issue.
Manu Sporny: but at the lower level we do a bunch of graph merges, it's not just a parse-time issue. ←
14:34:57 <manu> Benjamin: I think we can put a warning in the document on the .parse() method because that's when this becomes an issue.
Benjamin Adrian: I think we can put a warning in the document on the .parse() method because that's when this becomes an issue. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:35:55 <manu> Ivan: I can see that if we put a warning in the document working... this may be something we learn more about in implementations.
Ivan Herman: I can see that if we put a warning in the document working... this may be something we learn more about in implementations. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:35:57 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:35:57 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to wonder whether or not "it's the same problem w/ JavaScript"
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to wonder whether or not "it's the same problem w/ JavaScript" ←
14:36:26 <ivan> manu: JavaScript could solve this problem, even if you do a graph merges
Manu Sporny: JavaScript could solve this problem, even if you do a graph merges ←
14:36:36 <ivan> ... if you had a programming language that uses pure references
... if you had a programming language that uses pure references ←
14:37:07 <ivan> ... if you do a graph merge, the references will still be fine after the merge. However, this is relying on a language feature that is not universally available
... if you do a graph merge, the references will still be fine after the merge. However, this is relying on a language feature that is not universally available ←
14:37:13 <ivan> q+
q+ ←
14:37:47 <manu> Manu: .getRel() could work across graph merges if we deal with languages that operate on references.
Manu Sporny: .getRel() could work across graph merges if we deal with languages that operate on references. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:38:10 <manu> Ivan: Forget about blank nodes for a while - if I have a graph and ask for a Projection, that projection is all the triples that have a common subject.
Ivan Herman: Forget about blank nodes for a while - if I have a graph and ask for a Projection, that projection is all the triples that have a common subject. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:38:48 <manu> ... I have a reference... then I do a merge. Will the projection have to be updated? Does it give me a current snapshot into the graph, or does it give me an auto-updated item.
Manu Sporny: ... I have a reference... then I do a merge. Will the projection have to be updated? Does it give me a current snapshot into the graph, or does it give me an auto-updated item. ←
14:39:25 <manu> Manu: If we deal w/ reference-based languages - we get an auto-updated item.
Manu Sporny: If we deal w/ reference-based languages - we get an auto-updated item. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:39:35 <manu> Ivan: When we deal with things that aren't just snapshots, that's when we get in trouble.
Ivan Herman: When we deal with things that aren't just snapshots, that's when we get in trouble. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:40:00 <manu> Ivan: If it is a snapshot, an implementation can optimize for it. If it's not a snapshot, every request on a projection has to go down to the graph and do a query.
Ivan Herman: If it is a snapshot, an implementation can optimize for it. If it's not a snapshot, every request on a projection has to go down to the graph and do a query. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:41:27 <ivan> manu: there is a middle ground, (a) snapshot, nothing changes (b) snapshot, number triples do not change, but the values do because they are pure references (c) it is not a snapshot, everything can change triples and values
Manu Sporny: there is a middle ground, (a) snapshot, nothing changes (b) snapshot, number triples do not change, but the values do because they are pure references (c) it is not a snapshot, everything can change triples and values ←
14:41:27 <Benjamin> q+ to say it has to be a snapshot.
Benjamin Adrian: q+ to say it has to be a snapshot. ←
14:41:58 <ivan> manu: third option may become very complicated
Manu Sporny: third option may become very complicated ←
14:42:17 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:42:54 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me ←
14:42:54 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted ←
14:42:58 <manu> Ivan: We agree on option #3 and option #1, not on option #2
Ivan Herman: We agree on option #3 and option #1, not on option #2 [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:43:13 <ivan> Benjamin: if it is not a snapshot, then we have to solve race conditions, we will have to deal with any sort of "waiting" condition.
Benjamin Adrian: if it is not a snapshot, then we have to solve race conditions, we will have to deal with any sort of "waiting" condition. ←
14:43:26 <ivan> ivan: yes, good point
Ivan Herman: yes, good point ←
14:43:45 <manu> Ivan: This has to be very clearly documented... seems like we think that getRel() is not necessary and that bnodes can be kicked out from under you during parsing and graph merges.
Ivan Herman: This has to be very clearly documented... seems like we think that getRel() is not necessary and that bnodes can be kicked out from under you during parsing and graph merges. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:43:58 <Zakim> +??P36
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36 ←
14:44:11 <ivan> zakim, ??P36 is ShaneM
zakim, ??P36 is ShaneM ←
14:44:11 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←
14:44:13 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me ←
14:44:13 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted ←
14:44:19 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me ←
14:44:19 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted ←
14:44:38 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me ←
14:44:38 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted ←
14:44:45 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me ←
14:44:45 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted ←
14:44:47 <ivan> Result of the discussion: projections are snapshots (option a), bnodes can disappear during parsing/merges, and we do not need getRel()
Result of the discussion: projections are snapshots (option a), bnodes can disappear during parsing/merges, and we do not need getRel() ←
14:45:06 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me ←
14:45:31 <MacTed> Zakim, mute Benjamin
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute Benjamin ←
14:45:31 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted ←
14:46:47 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-89: Term vs. Alias
14:46:53 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/89
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/89 ←
14:47:27 <ivan> manu: this came up because nathan used 'alias' in the last RDF interface document.
Manu Sporny: this came up because nathan used 'alias' in the last RDF interface document. ←
14:47:50 <ivan> ... as Ivan said we would have to change lots of documents if we wanted to use alias
... as Ivan said we would have to change lots of documents if we wanted to use alias ←
14:48:04 <ivan> ... and, if we decide to change, how to do that
... and, if we decide to change, how to do that ←
14:48:06 <ivan> q+
q+ ←
14:48:15 <MacTed> +1 term
Ted Thibodeau: +1 term ←
14:48:22 <ivan> ShaneM: we should continue to use terms
Shane McCarron: we should continue to use terms ←
14:48:48 <ivan> ... it has a mind share, it is already in use in the area activity as well, i do not want to re-educate them, i do no see the advantage
... it has a mind share, it is already in use in the area activity as well, i do not want to re-educate them, i do no see the advantage ←
14:49:04 <ivan> ... alias is computer science, and term is more linguistic... RDFa attempts to be more linguistic than computer-sciencey
... alias is computer science, and term is more linguistic... RDFa attempts to be more linguistic than computer-sciencey ←
14:49:10 <tomayac> +1 for term, fwiw
Thomas Steiner: +1 for term, fwiw ←
14:49:11 <ivan> ... term seems to fit better than alias
... term seems to fit better than alias ←
14:49:25 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:49:53 <manu> Ivan: I am a bit afraid that we're going to have to change all the docs/implementations/blog posts...
Ivan Herman: I am a bit afraid that we're going to have to change all the docs/implementations/blog posts... [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:49:59 <ShaneM> Oh yeah! And datatypes, XHTML M12N, etc. ick
Shane McCarron: Oh yeah! And datatypes, XHTML M12N, etc. ick ←
14:50:07 <manu> Ivan: There doesn't seem to be a very big advantage for making the change... it's a bit too late to make this change.
Ivan Herman: There doesn't seem to be a very big advantage for making the change... it's a bit too late to make this change. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:50:09 <manu> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
14:50:23 <manu> Ivan: Keep terms.
Ivan Herman: Keep terms. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:50:32 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:50:37 <ivan> manu: I had a different view on this
Manu Sporny: I had a different view on this ←
14:50:46 <ivan> ... I had just come to the conclusion that we should move to alias
... I had just come to the conclusion that we should move to alias ←
14:51:10 <ivan> ... English-speaking people would understand what 'alias' means faster than they would understand 'term', IMHO
... English-speaking people would understand what 'alias' means faster than they would understand 'term', IMHO ←
14:51:16 <ivan> ... after all this is what we do, we 'alias' a URI. We don't 'term' a URI.
... after all this is what we do, we 'alias' a URI. We don't 'term' a URI. ←
14:51:30 <ivan> ... it invokes more of what an alias is than what a term is.
... it invokes more of what an alias is than what a term is. ←
14:51:33 <ivan> q+
q+ ←
14:51:36 <ivan> ack manu
ack manu ←
14:51:47 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss what a term really is
Shane McCarron: q+ to discuss what a term really is ←
14:51:48 <ivan> manu: this is the strongest argument I have, and it's not really that strong of an argument.
Manu Sporny: this is the strongest argument I have, and it's not really that strong of an argument. ←
14:52:03 <manu> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
14:52:07 <ivan> ack ivan
ack ivan ←
14:52:26 <manu> Ivan: If we had this discussion a year ago, I would fully agree with you.
Ivan Herman: If we had this discussion a year ago, I would fully agree with you. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:52:45 <manu> Ivan: The argument resonates with me - it's a bit too late. We need a stronger argument now.
Ivan Herman: The argument resonates with me - it's a bit too late. We need a stronger argument now. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:52:48 <manu> ack ShaneM
Manu Sporny: ack ShaneM ←
14:52:48 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss what a term really is
Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to discuss what a term really is ←
14:53:02 <ivan> ShaneM: you said something I may not agree with
Shane McCarron: you said something I may not agree with ←
14:53:22 <ivan> ... it is true internally that we have a mechanism to take a string and map it to a uri
... it is true internally that we have a mechanism to take a string and map it to a uri ←
14:53:34 <ivan> ... but that is not how I explain things to people
... but that is not how I explain things to people ←
14:53:45 <ivan> .. I say that a 'term' is a component of a vocabulary, which is easier to understand.
.. I say that a 'term' is a component of a vocabulary, which is easier to understand. ←
14:54:07 <ivan> ... it is a term. it expands to a uri, but for our audience 'you can use this word, and means _this_'. How vocabularies contain terms that lead to definitions.
... it is a term. it expands to a uri, but for our audience 'you can use this word, and means _this_'. How vocabularies contain terms that lead to definitions. ←
14:54:21 <ivan> ... we would like to attract the microformat community with this
... we would like to attract the microformat community with this ←
14:54:28 <ivan> ... they not care about URIs, but they do care about terms.
... they not care about URIs, but they do care about terms. ←
14:54:36 <ivan> PROPOSAL: Keep the word 'term' - do not use the word 'alias'.
PROPOSED: Keep the word 'term' - do not use the word 'alias'. ←
14:54:45 <ivan> Ivan: +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
14:54:50 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
14:54:51 <tomayac> +1
Thomas Steiner: +1 ←
14:54:58 <manu> +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
14:55:02 <Benjamin> +1
Benjamin Adrian: +1 ←
14:55:16 <manu> RESOLVED: Keep the word 'term' - do not use the word 'alias'.
RESOLVED: Keep the word 'term' - do not use the word 'alias'. ←
14:55:17 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
14:55:55 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-94: Formulation on fragid in RDFa Core
14:56:06 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/94
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/94 ←
14:56:10 <ivan> manu: this boils down removing 2 words from the spec
Manu Sporny: this boils down removing 2 words from the spec ←
14:56:35 <ivan> ... the issue the TAG / Jonathan Rees had with the spec is that we say the word 'at present', and we should not say it
... the issue the TAG / Jonathan Rees had with the spec is that we say the word 'at present', and we should not say it ←
14:56:50 <ivan> ... if we do that, they are happy
... if we do that, they are happy ←
14:58:17 <manu> PROPOSAL: Remove the words "at present" when discussing fragment identifiers. The editor will create language that is in line with the TAG's request.
PROPOSED: Remove the words "at present" when discussing fragment identifiers. The editor will create language that is in line with the TAG's request. ←
14:58:20 <manu> +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
14:58:22 <ivan> Ivan: +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
14:58:25 <tomayac> +1
Thomas Steiner: +1 ←
14:58:26 <Benjamin> +1
Benjamin Adrian: +1 ←
14:58:34 <ShaneM> +1
Shane McCarron: +1 ←
14:59:35 <MacTed> +1 :-)
Ted Thibodeau: +1 :-) ←
14:58:40 <ivan> RESOLVED: Remove the words "at present" when discussing fragment identifiers. The editor will create language that is in line with the TAG's request.
RESOLVED: Remove the words "at present" when discussing fragment identifiers. The editor will create language that is in line with the TAG's request. ←
14:59:55 <manu> ACTION: Manu to do official 2nd LC response to ISSUE-94.
ACTION: Manu to do official 2nd LC response to ISSUE-94. ←
15:00:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - Do official 2nd LC response to ISSUE-94. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-05-19].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-77 - Do official 2nd LC response to ISSUE-94. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-05-19]. ←
15:00:05 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-87: IRI vs. URI References
15:00:33 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/87
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/87 ←
15:00:54 <ivan> manu: Mischa asked us to use the same terminology as the rest of the RDF community
Manu Sporny: Mischa asked us to use the same terminology as the rest of the RDF community ←
15:01:05 <ivan> ... ShaneM explained the reasoning on the mailing list
... ShaneM explained the reasoning on the mailing list ←
15:03:14 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
15:04:17 <ShaneM> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0069.html
Shane McCarron: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0069.html ←
15:05:58 <ivan> What happens when one expresses this in RDFa in @href: http://www.résumé.org/
What happens when one expresses this in RDFa in @href: http://www.résumé.org/ ←
15:06:13 <manu> Shane responded: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0067.html
Manu Sporny: Shane responded: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0067.html ←
15:06:25 <manu> Mischa's response to Shane's response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0069.html
Manu Sporny: Mischa's response to Shane's response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0069.html ←
15:07:18 <tomayac> xn--rsum-bpad.org
Thomas Steiner: xn--rsum-bpad.org ←
15:07:56 <tomayac> manu, depends on your browser
Thomas Steiner: manu, depends on your browser ←
15:08:00 <tomayac> some show it, some hide it
Thomas Steiner: some show it, some hide it ←
15:08:10 <tomayac> in the background they punycode it
Thomas Steiner: in the background they punycode it ←
15:08:43 <manu> So for: www.zürich.com does RDFa output that? Or does it output: www.xn--zrich-kva.com
Manu Sporny: So for: www.zürich.com does RDFa output that? Or does it output: www.xn--zrich-kva.com ←
15:10:21 <manu> Can RDFa output the following: <www.сделат картинки.com> ? for a subject?
Manu Sporny: Can RDFa output the following: <www.сделат картинки.com> ? for a subject? ←
15:13:15 <tomayac> we have problems with e.g. ntriples, which only allow ascii, rdfa has no problem with it
Thomas Steiner: we have problems with e.g. ntriples, which only allow ascii, rdfa has no problem with it ←
15:14:24 <ShaneM> tomayac: ahh
Thomas Steiner: ahh [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ] ←
15:14:28 <ShaneM> Ivan: We need to get the RDF WG and Semantic Web Coordination group involved.
Ivan Herman: We need to get the RDF WG and Semantic Web Coordination group involved. [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ] ←
15:15:53 <manu> ACTION: Manu to write e-mail to RDF WG chairs about ISSUE-87 - we can't go to CR without this being resolved.
ACTION: Manu to write e-mail to RDF WG chairs about ISSUE-87 - we can't go to CR without this being resolved. ←
15:15:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - Write e-mail to RDF WG chairs about ISSUE-87 - we can't go to CR without this being resolved. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-05-19].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-78 - Write e-mail to RDF WG chairs about ISSUE-87 - we can't go to CR without this being resolved. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-05-19]. ←
15:17:15 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0469.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0469.html ←
15:18:16 <tomayac> shouldn't we default to punycoding all IRIs, so treat them always the same. least common multiple...
Thomas Steiner: shouldn't we default to punycoding all IRIs, so treat them always the same. least common multiple... ←
15:18:18 <manu> I don't think that we should do that.
Manu Sporny: I don't think that we should do that. ←
15:23:29 <ShaneM> Section 6 says "The lexical space of a CURIE is as defined in curie below. The value space is the set of URIs."
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Shane McCarron: Section 6 says "The lexical space of a CURIE is as defined in curie below. The value space is the set of URIs." ←
15:24:00 <Zakim> -Benjamin
Zakim IRC Bot: -Benjamin ←
15:24:19 <Benjamin> bye
Benjamin Adrian: bye ←
15:27:40 <ShaneM> href="http://www.сделат картинки.com/example" is what in the DOM within a browser?
Shane McCarron: href="http://www.сделат картинки.com/example" is what in the DOM within a browser? ←
15:27:56 <manu> ShaneM: No, that's not in the DOM
Shane McCarron: No, that's not in the DOM [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:28:29 <tomayac> http://www.xn--zrich-kva.de/
Thomas Steiner: http://www.xn--zrich-kva.de/ ←
15:30:12 <tomayac> <a href="http://www.xn--schweizer-kche-qsb.de/">Schweizer Küche</a>
Thomas Steiner: <a href="http://www.xn--schweizer-kche-qsb.de/">Schweizer Küche</a> ←
15:34:16 <tomayac> <a href="http://www.xn--schweizer-kche-qsb.de/">Schweizer Küche</a>
Thomas Steiner: <a href="http://www.xn--schweizer-kche-qsb.de/">Schweizer Küche</a> ←
15:34:39 <ShaneM> check this: http://www.aptest.com/iri.html
Shane McCarron: check this: http://www.aptest.com/iri.html ←
15:34:44 <tomayac> my irc client punycodes... the 2nd link had a ü in it
Thomas Steiner: my irc client punycodes... the 2nd link had a ü in it ←
15:35:48 <manu> RDFa processors should allow: <a href="http://www.schweizer-küche.de/">Schweizer Küche</a>
Manu Sporny: RDFa processors should allow: <a href="http://www.schweizer-küche.de/">Schweizer Küche</a> ←
15:35:48 <manu> ... lots of discussion on how to best proceed with RDFa processors and how they may affect URLs and IRIs that are generated ...
Manu Sporny: ... lots of discussion on how to best proceed with RDFa processors and how they may affect URLs and IRIs that are generated ... ←
15:36:48 <tomayac> hmmm, personally i expect the rdfa processors to punycode. just sayin'...
Thomas Steiner: hmmm, personally i expect the rdfa processors to punycode. just sayin'... ←
15:45:04 <Zakim> -Ivan
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
15:45:05 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
15:45:05 <Zakim> -Thomas
Zakim IRC Bot: -Thomas ←
15:45:07 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended ←
15:45:10 <Zakim> Attendees were Thomas, Ivan, MacTed, Benjamin, manu, ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Thomas, Ivan, MacTed, Benjamin, manu, ShaneM ←
15:48:06 <tomayac> we kinda have this issue already: http://dbpedia.org/page/Tie_%28draw%29 is NOT the same as http://dbpedia.org/page/Tie_(draw), where http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(draw) is the same as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_%28draw%29
Thomas Steiner: we kinda have this issue already: http://dbpedia.org/page/Tie_%28draw%29 is NOT the same as http://dbpedia.org/page/Tie_(draw), where http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(draw) is the same as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_%28draw%29 ←
Formatted by CommonScribe