None.
15:00:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-rdfa-irc ←
15:00:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:00:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332 ←
15:00:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now ←
15:00:34 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
15:00:34 <trackbot> Date: 09 December 2010
15:00:40 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Dec/0032.html
15:00:42 <manu1> Chair: Manu
15:03:17 <ShaneM> Scribe: ShaneM
(Scribe set to Shane McCarron)
15:03:18 <ShaneM> scribenick: ShaneM
15:03:45 <manu1> zakim, are you dead?
Manu Sporny: zakim, are you dead? ←
15:03:45 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, manu1.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, manu1. ←
15:03:50 <manu1> zakim, who is on the phone?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:03:52 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, manu1
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, manu1 ←
15:03:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Benjamin, tinkster, manu1, ivan, Nathan, trackbot, markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Benjamin, tinkster, manu1, ivan, Nathan, trackbot, markbirbeck ←
15:03:58 <manu1> Present: Ivan, ShaneM, Manu, Toby, Nathan, MarkB, Benjamin, Knud
15:03:59 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
15:04:04 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:04:43 <tinkster> zakim, mute me
Toby Inkster: zakim, mute me ←
15:04:43 <Zakim> sorry, tinkster, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tinkster, I don't know what conference this is ←
15:04:57 <manu1> zakim, this is rdfa
Manu Sporny: zakim, this is rdfa ←
15:04:57 <Zakim> ok, manu1; that matches SW_RDFa()10:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, manu1; that matches SW_RDFa()10:00AM ←
15:04:57 <tinkster> zakim, this is 7332
Toby Inkster: zakim, this is 7332 ←
15:04:57 <Zakim> tinkster, this was already SW_RDFa()10:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: tinkster, this was already SW_RDFa()10:00AM ←
15:05:00 <Zakim> ok, tinkster; that matches SW_RDFa()10:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, tinkster; that matches SW_RDFa()10:00AM ←
15:05:07 <manu1> zakim, who is on the phone?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:05:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see tinkster, ??P26, Shane, ??P28, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tinkster, ??P26, Shane, ??P28, Ivan ←
15:05:41 <Benjamin> zakim, I am ??P28
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, I am ??P28 ←
15:05:41 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Benjamin; got it ←
15:06:07 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me ←
15:06:07 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted ←
15:06:14 <manu1> zakim, I am ??p26
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??p26 ←
15:06:14 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it ←
15:06:46 <Zakim> +Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud ←
15:07:01 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
15:07:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see tinkster, manu1, Shane, Benjamin (muted), Ivan, Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tinkster, manu1, Shane, Benjamin (muted), Ivan, Knud ←
15:07:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see Knud, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Benjamin, tinkster, manu1, ivan, Nathan, trackbot, markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Knud, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Benjamin, tinkster, manu1, ivan, Nathan, trackbot, markbirbeck ←
15:08:01 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
Mark Birbeck: zakim, code? ←
15:08:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), markbirbeck ←
15:09:24 <Zakim> -Benjamin
Zakim IRC Bot: -Benjamin ←
15:09:40 <Zakim> +??P44
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44 ←
15:09:47 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
Mark Birbeck: zakim, i am ? ←
15:09:47 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it ←
15:09:55 <Zakim> +??P28
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28 ←
15:09:58 <manu1> zakim, I am ??p28
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??p28 ←
15:09:58 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it ←
15:10:12 <Benjamin> zakim, who is on the phone
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, who is on the phone ←
15:10:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Benjamin
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Benjamin ←
15:10:24 <Benjamin> zakim, who is here?
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, who is here? ←
15:10:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see tinkster, manu1, Shane, Ivan, Knud, markbirbeck, manu1.a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tinkster, manu1, Shane, Ivan, Knud, markbirbeck, manu1.a ←
15:10:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see Knud, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Benjamin, tinkster, manu1, ivan, Nathan, trackbot, markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Knud, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Benjamin, tinkster, manu1, ivan, Nathan, trackbot, markbirbeck ←
15:10:27 <manu1> zakim, who is on the phone?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:10:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see tinkster, manu1, Shane, Ivan, Knud, markbirbeck, manu1.a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tinkster, manu1, Shane, Ivan, Knud, markbirbeck, manu1.a ←
15:10:39 <manu1> zakim, manu1 is benjamin
Manu Sporny: zakim, manu1 is benjamin ←
15:10:39 <Zakim> +benjamin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +benjamin; got it ←
15:10:46 <manu1> zakim, who is on the phone?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:10:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see tinkster, benjamin, Shane, Ivan, Knud, markbirbeck, manu1.a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tinkster, benjamin, Shane, Ivan, Knud, markbirbeck, manu1.a ←
15:12:34 <manu1> Topic: Update on incoming Last Call reviews
15:13:23 <Zakim> -Shane
Zakim IRC Bot: -Shane ←
15:13:37 <manu1> Manu: Lots of reviews coming in before end of year.
Manu Sporny: Lots of reviews of RDFa Core coming in before end of year. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:13:44 <Zakim> +Shane
Zakim IRC Bot: +Shane ←
15:14:04 <ShaneM> s/reviews/reviews of RDFa Core/
15:15:21 <manu1> Shane: Aside - PFWG accepted our changes on role.
Shane McCarron: Aside - PFWG accepted our changes on role. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:15:31 <ShaneM> ShaneM: PFWG accepted out comments on the Role Attribute spec. They are integrated and will be in the last call release next week.
Shane McCarron: PFWG accepted out comments on the Role Attribute spec. They are integrated and will be in the last call release next week. ←
15:15:54 <ShaneM> manu1: does anyone object to extending the RDFa Core and XHTML+RDFa reviews to 5 January 2011?
Manu Sporny: does anyone object to extending the RDFa Core and XHTML+RDFa reviews to 5 January 2011? ←
15:16:03 <ShaneM> no objections.
no objections. ←
15:16:26 <manu1> Topic: Response to Last Call Comments
15:16:31 <ShaneM> manu1: we should start responding to last call comments... we don't really need to wait.
Manu Sporny: we should start responding to last call comments... we don't really need to wait. ←
15:17:06 <ShaneM> ShaneM: Isn't our plate full with RDFa API?
Shane McCarron: Isn't our plate full with RDFa API? ←
15:17:58 <ShaneM> manu1: Yes... but you (shane) had offered to take the lead on responding. So perhaps we can do it in parallel? Create a draft response to each comment, sent to RDFa working group, if no objections after 5 days, then send on as an official response from the working group.
Manu Sporny: Yes... but you (shane) had offered to take the lead on responding. So perhaps we can do it in parallel? Create a draft response to each comment, sent to RDFa working group, if no objections after 5 days, then send on as an official response from the working group. ←
15:18:25 <ShaneM> ... the perfect people to work on these would be Shane and Ivan.
... the perfect people to work on these would be Shane and Ivan. ←
15:18:46 <ShaneM> ivan: procedurally this is fine. But there might be issues we can't do on our own.
Ivan Herman: procedurally this is fine. But there might be issues we can't do on our own. ←
15:18:58 <ShaneM> manu1: sure - in that case they can be punted to the working group for discussion.
Manu Sporny: sure - in that case they can be punted to the working group for discussion. ←
15:19:18 <ShaneM> ... I don't want us to have a huge collection on 5 January.
... I don't want us to have a huge collection on 5 January. ←
15:20:28 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/products/8
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/products/8 ←
15:20:38 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/products/9
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/products/9 ←
15:22:03 <ShaneM> ivan: some comments have actually multiple issues.
Ivan Herman: some comments have actually multiple issues. ←
15:22:19 <ShaneM> ShaneM: Yes, but not very many...
Shane McCarron: Yes, but not very many... ←
15:23:01 <ShaneM> manu1: The process can be - pick an issue to respond to, send a draft response to the working group marked DRAFT with a 3 to 7 day window to object, if no objections, forward as a formal response to the sender.
Manu Sporny: The process can be - pick an issue to respond to, send a draft response to the working group marked DRAFT with a 3 to 7 day window to object, if no objections, forward as a formal response to the sender. ←
15:23:42 <ShaneM> ivan: some of these are issues we have already discussed in the working group. Do we need a resolution?
Ivan Herman: some of these are issues we have already discussed in the working group. Do we need a resolution? ←
15:23:48 <ShaneM> ShaneM: Only if there is a change to the text.
Shane McCarron: Only if there is a change to the text. ←
15:24:09 <ShaneM> manu1: Sure. Then those would be punted to the working group for a formal resolution.
Manu Sporny: Sure. Then those would be punted to the working group for a formal resolution. ←
15:25:39 <manu1> Topic: Review RDF API Document
15:26:59 <ShaneM> manu1: We might recharter to take on the RDF API and RDFa API.
Manu Sporny: We might recharter to take on the RDF API and RDFa API. ←
15:27:21 <ShaneM> ... Worked over the weekend to create two documents that are in good shape to act as basis for the rec-track documents.
... Worked over the weekend to create two documents that are in good shape to act as basis for the rec-track documents. ←
15:27:33 <ShaneM> ... process - quick high level review of each document
... process - quick high level review of each document ←
15:29:05 <ShaneM> manu1: Unforutnately, Nathan isn't here right now. I will summarize his work.
Manu Sporny: Unforutnately, Nathan isn't here right now. I will summarize his work. ←
15:29:46 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/ ←
15:31:12 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#data-structures
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#data-structures ←
15:31:16 <ShaneM> manu1: RDF details are pushed into the RDF API. RDFa developers can get at all the data they need, but they don't need to dive down to the graph / triples / nodes level for most things. This would be 'advanced' programming.
Manu Sporny: RDF details are pushed into the RDF API. RDFa developers can get at all the data they need, but they don't need to dive down to the graph / triples / nodes level for most things. This would be 'advanced' programming. ←
15:31:43 <ShaneM> ... RDF API has triples and graphs (at the highest level).
... RDF API has triples and graphs (at the highest level). ←
15:32:31 <ShaneM> ... We had some feedback from TimBL that says we really want to view this as a pure graph.
... We had some feedback from TimBL that says we really want to view this as a pure graph. ←
15:32:54 <ShaneM> ivan: This means it is possible to have a graph that is not serializable?
Ivan Herman: This means it is possible to have a graph that is not serializable? ←
15:33:23 <ShaneM> manu1: That's correct. We dealt with that by saying it is fine that you are doing - it just may not serialize into a particular format
Manu Sporny: That's correct. We dealt with that by saying it is fine that you are doing - it just may not serialize into a particular format ←
15:34:07 <ShaneM> ... this was the direction we think TimBL wanted us to go, and after heavy debate we agree with the direction.
... this was the direction we think TimBL wanted us to go, and after heavy debate we agree with the direction. ←
15:34:24 <tinkster> Closer to the Notation3 model, but not quite as broad.
Toby Inkster: Closer to the Notation3 model, but not quite as broad. ←
15:35:03 <ShaneM> ivan: This is probably not quite correct, but it is okay to leave it in the doucment for now. It is a possible future issue though. This generalized form is something that would allow literals for subjects, for example. And that is not something that is currently permitted in RDF.
Ivan Herman: This is probably not quite correct, but it is okay to leave it in the doucment for now. It is a possible future issue though. This generalized form is something that would allow literals for subjects, for example. And that is not something that is currently permitted in RDF. ←
15:35:15 <ShaneM> manu1: Yes. This is an attempt to future-proof the API, in case we do end up supporting literals as subjects/predicates or allow graph literals.
Manu Sporny: Yes. This is an attempt to future-proof the API, in case we do end up supporting literals as subjects/predicates or allow graph literals. ←
15:35:52 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#graphs
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#graphs ←
15:36:00 <ShaneM> ivan: Okay - but this should be very clear in the document (as an editorial note for now).
Ivan Herman: Okay - but this should be very clear in the document (as an editorial note for now). ←
15:37:14 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:37:26 <manu1> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
15:37:49 <ShaneM> Manu summarizes the various methods and techniques...
Manu summarizes the various methods and techniques... ←
15:38:54 <manu1> manu1: You could get to the prefixes and terms by doing something like: rdf.prefixes or rdf.terms. There is the notion of graph literals now, too.
Manu Sporny: You could get to the prefixes and terms by doing something like: rdf.prefixes or rdf.terms. There is the notion of graph literals now, too. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:39:34 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#graph-literals
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#graph-literals ←
15:40:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:41:13 <Nathan> Zakim, I am IPcaller
Nathan Rixham: Zakim, I am IPcaller ←
15:41:13 <Zakim> ok, Nathan, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Nathan, I now associate you with [IPcaller] ←
15:43:04 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
15:43:48 <Benjamin> q+ to ask something about the factory methods
Benjamin Adrian: q+ to ask something about the factory methods ←
15:44:11 <Zakim> -tinkster
Zakim IRC Bot: -tinkster ←
15:44:12 <ShaneM> Nathan: re: Graph literals - goal to ensure that it is N3 compatible and future proof.
Nathan Rixham: re: Graph literals - goal to ensure that it is N3 compatible and future proof. ←
15:44:45 <Zakim> +tinkster
Zakim IRC Bot: +tinkster ←
15:44:56 <manu1> ack markbirbeck
Manu Sporny: ack markbirbeck ←
15:45:09 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: is a graph literal a string?
Mark Birbeck: is a graph literal a string? ←
15:45:27 <ShaneM> Nathan: no. It can serialize to a string.
Nathan Rixham: no. It can serialize to a string. ←
15:45:42 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: Does it point to another graph in the system or does it contain a graph?
Mark Birbeck: Does it point to another graph in the system or does it contain a graph? ←
15:45:54 <ShaneM> Nathan: It contains a graph.
Nathan Rixham: It contains a graph. ←
15:45:58 <tinkster> A graph literal is a string in the same sense that an xsd:integer is a string. An integer isn't a string, but it can be serialised to a string.
Toby Inkster: A graph literal is a string in the same sense that an xsd:integer is a string. An integer isn't a string, but it can be serialised to a string. ←
15:45:59 <manu1> q+ to point out that we're getting into implementation details
Manu Sporny: q+ to point out that we're getting into implementation details ←
15:48:58 <Nathan> q+ to respond re store
Nathan Rixham: q+ to respond re store ←
15:49:25 <manu1> ack Benjamin
Manu Sporny: ack Benjamin ←
15:49:25 <Zakim> Benjamin, you wanted to ask something about the factory methods
Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin, you wanted to ask something about the factory methods ←
15:49:37 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: we had discussions about datastore for ages. My point is that the current draft has lost some functionality that we had with the store interface. A store was a collection of many graphs potentially, and we could have queried across them. We can't do that with the current document.
Mark Birbeck: we had discussions about datastore for ages. My point is that the current draft has lost some functionality that we had with the store interface. A store was a collection of many graphs potentially, and we could have queried across them. We can't do that with the current document. ←
15:50:31 <ShaneM> Benjamin: My goal is to create a single RDF triple. There would be lots of code needed to do this. Can't we have a createTriple interface that takes strings instead of nodes?
Benjamin Adrian: My goal is to create a single RDF triple. There would be lots of code needed to do this. Can't we have a createTriple interface that takes strings instead of nodes? ←
15:50:42 <ShaneM> manu1: We may add convenience methods in the future, right now this is bare bones.
Manu Sporny: We may add convenience methods in the future, right now this is bare bones. ←
15:51:11 <manu1> ack [IPCaller]
Manu Sporny: ack [IPCaller] ←
15:51:11 <Zakim> [IPcaller], you wanted to respond re store
Zakim IRC Bot: [IPcaller], you wanted to respond re store ←
15:51:16 <manu1> ack manu1.a
Manu Sporny: ack manu1.a ←
15:51:16 <Zakim> manu1.a, you wanted to point out that we're getting into implementation details
Zakim IRC Bot: manu1.a, you wanted to point out that we're getting into implementation details ←
15:51:29 <manu1> zakim, manu1.a is manu1
Manu Sporny: zakim, manu1.a is manu1 ←
15:51:29 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it ←
15:52:00 <ShaneM> Nathan: the graph was put into the API before I decided to not include the datastore. I went to do it last night, and couldn't make it work properly. It can still go in, just that I didn't have the time.
Nathan Rixham: the graph was put into the API before I decided to not include the datastore. I went to do it last night, and couldn't make it work properly. It can still go in, just that I didn't have the time. ←
15:53:27 <ShaneM> ... I agree there is no easy way to create a triple in this API at the moment. The reasons are that we are trying to promote interoperability with libraries, and also that the interface would be very complex - needing 9 slots to deal with the various parameters associated with each triple component.
... I agree there is no easy way to create a triple in this API at the moment. The reasons are that we are trying to promote interoperability with libraries, and also that the interface would be very complex - needing 9 slots to deal with the various parameters associated with each triple component. ←
15:53:39 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#rdf-environment
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#rdf-environment ←
15:53:42 <manu1> manu1: The RDF environment could be used to generate triples with more convenience. Right now, it's the central access point for the RDF functionality.
Manu Sporny: The RDF environment could be used to generate triples with more convenience. Right now, it's the central access point for the RDF functionality. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:55:46 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:56:19 <manu1> ack ivan
Manu Sporny: ack ivan ←
15:56:41 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#idl-def-Profile
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#idl-def-Profile ←
15:56:41 <manu1> manu1: The environment extends profile, so can always get access to the prefixes/terms, etc.
Manu Sporny: The environment extends profile, so can always get access to the prefixes/terms, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:57:51 <tinkster> function createTriple(string) { var rv; ntriplesParser.parse(string, function(g){rv=g.toArray()[0];}); return rv; }
Toby Inkster: function createTriple(string) { var rv; ntriplesParser.parse(string, function(g){rv=g.toArray()[0];}); return rv; } ←
15:59:09 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#parsing-and-serializing-data
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#parsing-and-serializing-data ←
15:59:12 <manu1> manu1: We also provide interfaces if you want to serialize or parse RDF data.
Manu Sporny: We also provide interfaces if you want to serialize or parse RDF data. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
15:59:52 <manu1> ... rdf.parseTurtle(xyz) is one way to extend the API
Manu Sporny: ... rdf.parseTurtle(xyz) is one way to extend the API ←
15:59:57 <manu1> ... or, we may want something like:
Manu Sporny: ... or, we may want something like: ←
16:00:07 <manu1> ... rdf.parse("turtle", query...)
Manu Sporny: ... rdf.parse("turtle", query...) ←
16:00:22 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#data-serializers
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#data-serializers ←
16:00:22 <manu1> manu1: There is more detail in the data serializer interface.
Manu Sporny: There is more detail in the data serializer interface. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:01:43 <tinkster> hmmm... why does PrefixMap.resolve return a DOMString and not a NamedNode?
Toby Inkster: hmmm... why does PrefixMap.resolve return a DOMString and not a NamedNode? ←
16:00:22 <manu1> manu1: So, that's basically the RDF API at a high level, what do folks think of this direction?
Manu Sporny: So, that's basically the RDF API at a high level, what do folks think of this direction? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:02:20 <Benjamin> it is great !
Benjamin Adrian: it is great ! ←
16:02:36 <markbirbeck> Great work, Nathan. :)
Mark Birbeck: Great work, Nathan. :) ←
16:02:43 <manu1> yes, great work, Nathan! :)
Manu Sporny: yes, great work, Nathan! :) ←
16:03:06 <Nathan> ty, ty, ty, likewise all - and good q Toby, i wondered too
Nathan Rixham: ty, ty, ty, likewise all - and good q Toby, i wondered too ←
16:04:32 <Zakim> -tinkster
Zakim IRC Bot: -tinkster ←
16:04:42 <Zakim> -benjamin
Zakim IRC Bot: -benjamin ←
16:05:10 <manu1> Topic: Review RDFa API Document
16:05:12 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/ ←
16:05:12 <manu1> manu1: Since we shifted most of the RDF functionality into the RDF API, it has greatly simplified the RDFa API. We wanted this to be a very, very simple API. We would be successful if web developers never had to talk about RDF or work with RDF data directly. Most people can get some really interesting stuff done with just JavaScript objects - so we try to map to that, in a lossy way. If folks want to get to the triple data, they can use the RDF environment - document.data.rdf.
Manu Sporny: Since we shifted most of the RDF functionality into the RDF API, it has greatly simplified the RDFa API. We wanted this to be a very, very simple API. We would be successful if web developers never had to talk about RDF or work with RDF data directly. Most people can get some really interesting stuff done with just JavaScript objects - so we try to map to that, in a lossy way. If folks want to get to the triple data, they can use the RDF environment - document.data.rdf. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:05:23 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←
16:05:31 <Zakim> -Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud ←
16:06:07 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#developing-with-the-api
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#developing-with-the-api ←
16:06:09 <manu1> manu1: As you can see, the RDFa API boils down into around 9 methods that give back native JavaScript objects. There are two ways to build native language objects - like JavaScript objects.
Manu Sporny: As you can see, the RDFa API boils down into around 9 methods that give back native JavaScript objects. There are two ways to build native language objects - like JavaScript objects. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:06:27 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#property-groups
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#property-groups ←
16:06:37 <manu1> manu1: Property Groups are collections of everything known about a particular subject.
Manu Sporny: Property Groups are collections of everything known about a particular subject. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:06:43 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#projections
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#projections ←
16:06:45 <manu1> manu1: Projections are native JavaScript objects whose attributes are mapped to specific vocabulary terms. The mapping is up to the developer, so they can transform any RDF into a JavaScript object in order to work with it. For example:
Manu Sporny: Projections are native JavaScript objects whose attributes are mapped to specific vocabulary terms. The mapping is up to the developer, so they can transform any RDF into a JavaScript object in order to work with it. For example: [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:07:23 <manu1> var pg = document.getItemBySubject("#ivan");
Manu Sporny: var pg = document.getItemBySubject("#ivan"); ←
16:07:46 <manu1> document.data.setMapping("foaf", "http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/");
Manu Sporny: document.data.setMapping("foaf", "http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/"); ←
16:07:59 <manu1> var name = pg.get("foaf:name");
Manu Sporny: var name = pg.get("foaf:name"); ←
16:08:07 <manu1> name === "Ivan Herman";
Manu Sporny: name === "Ivan Herman"; ←
16:08:54 <manu1> var p = document.data.query({"rdf:type": "foaf:Person"}, {"foaf:name": "name", "foaf:age": "age"});
Manu Sporny: var p = document.data.query({"rdf:type": "foaf:Person"}, {"foaf:name": "name", "foaf:age": "age"}); ←
16:09:00 <manu1> p.age
Manu Sporny: p.age ←
16:09:02 <manu1> p.name
Manu Sporny: p.name ←
16:10:25 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about getElements* methods
q+ to ask about getElements* methods ←
16:10:35 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#document-data
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#document-data ←
16:10:35 <manu1> manu1: If they want to get to the RDF data, set mappings, etc, they can do the following:
Manu Sporny: If they want to get to the RDF data, set mappings, etc, they can do the following: [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:10:43 <manu1> document.data.rdf
Manu Sporny: document.data.rdf ←
16:12:11 <manu1> document.data.setMapping()
Manu Sporny: document.data.setMapping() ←
16:13:26 <manu1> document.curie.setMapping()
Manu Sporny: document.curie.setMapping() ←
16:14:56 <manu1> you can do this:
Manu Sporny: you can do this: ←
16:15:03 <manu1> document.data.rdf.prefixes
Manu Sporny: document.data.rdf.prefixes ←
16:15:23 <manu1> ack shaneM
Manu Sporny: ack shaneM ←
16:15:23 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about getElements* methods
Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to ask about getElements* methods ←
16:17:59 <manu1> document.data.setMapping("foaf", "http://....");
Manu Sporny: document.data.setMapping("foaf", "http://...."); ←
16:18:13 <manu1> document.getElementsByType("foaf:Person");
Manu Sporny: document.getElementsByType("foaf:Person"); ←
16:18:22 <manu1> document.data.setMapping("xyz", "http://....");
Manu Sporny: document.data.setMapping("xyz", "http://...."); ←
16:18:27 <manu1> document.getElementsByType("xyz:Person");
Manu Sporny: document.getElementsByType("xyz:Person"); ←
16:18:34 <manu1> document.getElementsByType("http://...");
Manu Sporny: document.getElementsByType("http://..."); ←
16:19:12 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#the-document-interface
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-api/#the-document-interface ←
16:20:12 <manu1> pg.get("foaf:name");
Manu Sporny: pg.get("foaf:name"); ←
16:20:32 <manu1> Document implements DataDocument;
Manu Sporny: Document implements DataDocument; ←
16:20:33 <manu1> The top-level HTML Document implements DataDocument - which means that developers can access data in a document using the high-level methods. They can also get elements associated with properties, like so:
Manu Sporny: The top-level HTML Document implements DataDocument - which means that developers can access data in a document using the high-level methods. They can also get elements associated with properties, like so: ←
16:21:51 <manu1> var e = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name");
Manu Sporny: var e = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name"); ←
16:21:54 <manu1> var elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name");
Manu Sporny: var elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name"); ←
16:22:12 <manu1> var elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name", "Ivan Herman");
Manu Sporny: var elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name", "Ivan Herman"); ←
16:23:58 <manu1> <span property="foaf:name">Ivan Herman</span>
Manu Sporny: <span property="foaf:name">Ivan Herman</span> ←
16:24:10 <manu1> elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name", "Ivan Herman");
Manu Sporny: elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name", "Ivan Herman"); ←
16:24:23 <manu1> elems[0] == <SPAN>
Manu Sporny: elems[0] == <SPAN> ←
16:24:51 <manu1> elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:age", "15");
Manu Sporny: elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:age", "15"); ←
16:25:02 <ivan> elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name", "member:Ivan");
Ivan Herman: elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name", "member:Ivan"); ←
16:25:19 <ivan> elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name", "Manu")
Ivan Herman: elems = document.getElementsByProperty("foaf:name", "Manu") ←
16:25:31 <tinkster> For getElementsByProperty("foaf:page"), which element is selected in <span rel="foaf:page"><a href="http://example.com/">example.com</a></span>?
Toby Inkster: For getElementsByProperty("foaf:page"), which element is selected in <span rel="foaf:page"><a href="http://example.com/">example.com</a></span>? ←
16:26:02 <manu1> manu1: tinkster - the <SPAN> is returned, not the <A> element. That is, the element that expressed the predicate is returned.
Manu Sporny: tinkster - the <SPAN> is returned, not the <A> element. That is, the element that expressed the predicate is returned. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:26:26 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call? ←
16:26:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, manu1, Shane, [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Ivan, manu1, Shane, [IPcaller] ←
16:26:44 <manu1> manu1: two directions we could have taken: return elements for subject, predicate, object, or return elements for just the predicate - we took the latter path.
Manu Sporny: two directions we could have taken: return elements for subject, predicate, object, or return elements for just the predicate - we took the latter path. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:26:55 <ivan> <span about="a" rel="b" resource="c"><span property="qq">asfasa</span></span>
Ivan Herman: <span about="a" rel="b" resource="c"><span property="qq">asfasa</span></span> ←
16:27:14 <ivan> getElementsBySubject("c")
Ivan Herman: getElementsBySubject("c") ←
16:29:23 <manu1> manu1: If we went the "return a subject element, predicate element, and object element for every triple", it would be difficult for developers to work with the resulting items:
Manu Sporny: If we went the "return a subject element, predicate element, and object element for every triple", it would be difficult for developers to work with the resulting items: [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:29:23 <manu1> [Node, Node, Node]
Manu Sporny: [Node, Node, Node] ←
16:29:30 <manu1> [[Node, Node, Node], ...]
Manu Sporny: [[Node, Node, Node], ...] ←
16:31:34 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#terms--prefixes-and-profiles
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#terms--prefixes-and-profiles ←
16:31:34 <manu1> manu1: Other issue is ensuring prefix and terms are shared across RDF/RDFa API
Manu Sporny: Other issue is ensuring prefix and terms are shared across RDF/RDFa API [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:32:25 <Nathan> problem would be that you'd then have two environments, effectively
Nathan Rixham: problem would be that you'd then have two environments, effectively ←
16:34:24 <ShaneM> shane: I would remove the rdf attribute from document and use the hasFeature method
Shane McCarron: I would remove the rdf attribute from document and use the hasFeature method ←
16:36:13 <manu1> manu1: We want to make it so that if this is true: document.hasFeature("rdf-api")
Manu Sporny: We want to make it so that if this is true: document.hasFeature("rdf-api") [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:36:28 <manu1> ... then you MUST use document.rdfa ?
Manu Sporny: ... then you MUST use document.rdfa ? ←
16:38:32 <markbirbeck> BTW...should just flag up that I prefer the use of "?name"-style syntax in templates. Then you only need one parameter.
Mark Birbeck: BTW...should just flag up that I prefer the use of "?name"-style syntax in templates. Then you only need one parameter. ←
16:38:50 <manu1> the problem with that Mark, is that you can't pull out what you queried...
Manu Sporny: the problem with that Mark, is that you can't pull out what you queried... ←
16:38:53 <markbirbeck> (That was my main -- maybe only -- disagreement with latest draft.)
Mark Birbeck: (That was my main -- maybe only -- disagreement with latest draft.) ←
16:38:56 <tinkster> <div about="#bob">Bob <span rel="rdf:type">is a <a href="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person">Person</a></span>.</div> versus document.getElementsByType("http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person") ??
Toby Inkster: <div about="#bob">Bob <span rel="rdf:type">is a <a href="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person">Person</a></span>.</div> versus document.getElementsByType("http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person") ?? ←
16:39:05 <manu1> that's why I chose the two-parameter approach.
Manu Sporny: that's why I chose the two-parameter approach. ←
16:39:20 <manu1> so, if I query for foaf:name, how do I also get that value out?
Manu Sporny: so, if I query for foaf:name, how do I also get that value out? ←
16:39:43 <manu1> document.data.query{"foaf:age": 15}
Manu Sporny: document.data.query{"foaf:age": 15} ←
16:40:20 <markbirbeck> The only time you can't get the values back is if you query for a fixed value.
Mark Birbeck: The only time you can't get the values back is if you query for a fixed value. ←
16:40:44 <markbirbeck> var rs = document.data.query( {"foaf:age": "?age"} );
Mark Birbeck: var rs = document.data.query( {"foaf:age": "?age"} ); ←
16:41:01 <markbirbeck> assert( rs[0].age === 15 );
Mark Birbeck: assert( rs[0].age === 15 ); ←
16:41:34 <manu1> but I don't want to do that... lots of code for something that's pretty simple.
Manu Sporny: but I don't want to do that... lots of code for something that's pretty simple. ←
16:41:46 <markbirbeck> var rs = document.data.query( {"foaf:name": "Manu", "foaf:age": "?age"} );
Mark Birbeck: var rs = document.data.query( {"foaf:name": "Manu", "foaf:age": "?age"} ); ←
16:42:01 <markbirbeck> I don't follow you...that's less code than two parameters, surely? :)
Mark Birbeck: I don't follow you...that's less code than two parameters, surely? :) ←
16:47:44 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about live DOM tie in
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
q+ to talk about live DOM tie in ←
16:50:04 <Nathan> - http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#rdf-environment
Nathan Rixham: - http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/#rdf-environment ←
16:50:17 <manu1> ack shanem
Manu Sporny: ack shanem ←
16:50:17 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about live DOM tie in
Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to talk about live DOM tie in ←
16:50:24 <Nathan> Nathan: The RDFa-API doesn't /need/ to refer to RDF-API - we could completely decouple them.
Nathan Rixham: The RDFa-API doesn't /need/ to refer to RDF-API - we could completely decouple them. [ Scribe Assist by Nathan Rixham ] ←
16:50:27 <manu1> q+ to agree w/ Nathan more
Manu Sporny: q+ to agree w/ Nathan more ←
16:52:22 <Nathan> 1+ to respond
Nathan Rixham: 1+ to respond ←
16:52:26 <Nathan> q+ to respond
Nathan Rixham: q+ to respond ←
16:52:40 <manu1> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
16:52:40 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to agree w/ Nathan more
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to agree w/ Nathan more ←
16:52:46 <manu1> ack [IPCaller]
Manu Sporny: ack [IPCaller] ←
16:52:46 <Zakim> [IPcaller], you wanted to respond
Zakim IRC Bot: [IPcaller], you wanted to respond ←
16:55:33 <manu1> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
16:55:52 <Nathan> doc = xhr.get("http://some.rdfa/document")
Nathan Rixham: doc = xhr.get("http://some.rdfa/document") ←
16:56:03 <Nathan> doc.getItemsBy*
Nathan Rixham: doc.getItemsBy* ←
16:57:45 <Zakim> -Shane
Zakim IRC Bot: -Shane ←
16:57:55 <manu1> The question is, do we want to support parse, store and query methods on DocumentData?
Manu Sporny: The question is, do we want to support parse, store and query methods on DocumentData? ←
16:58:31 <manu1> document.data.parse("http://...");
Manu Sporny: document.data.parse("http://..."); ←
17:01:35 <manu1> document.data.store("http://...");
Manu Sporny: document.data.store("http://..."); ←
17:01:53 <manu1> document.data.query();
Manu Sporny: document.data.query(); ←
17:02:36 <Nathan> -1store(doca)
Nathan Rixham: -1store(doca) ←
17:04:49 <Nathan> lib.load(uri-a); lib.load(uri-b); lib.select("sparql here")
Nathan Rixham: lib.load(uri-a); lib.load(uri-b); lib.select("sparql here") ←
17:07:10 <manu1> document.data.query({"foaf:age": 15}, {"foaf:name": "name", "foaf:age": "age"});
Manu Sporny: document.data.query({"foaf:age": 15}, {"foaf:name": "name", "foaf:age": "age"}); ←
17:07:50 <manu1> The query interface is designed to be very high-level in the RDFa API:
Manu Sporny: The query interface is designed to be very high-level in the RDFa API: ←
17:07:50 <manu1> var p = document.data.query({"foaf:age": 15}, {"foaf:name": "name", "foaf:age": "age"});
Manu Sporny: var p = document.data.query({"foaf:age": 15}, {"foaf:name": "name", "foaf:age": "age"}); ←
17:07:52 <manu1> p[0].name
Manu Sporny: p[0].name ←
17:07:54 <manu1> p[0].age
Manu Sporny: p[0].age ←
17:08:00 <Nathan> p[1].age
Nathan Rixham: p[1].age ←
17:08:08 <manu1> var p = document.data.rdf.query({"foaf:age": 15}, {"foaf:name": "name", "foaf:age": "age"});
Manu Sporny: var p = document.data.rdf.query({"foaf:age": 15}, {"foaf:name": "name", "foaf:age": "age"}); ←
17:14:08 <markbirbeck> var p = document.data.rdf.query({"foaf:name": "?name", "foaf:age": [ 15, "?age" ]});
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Mark Birbeck: var p = document.data.rdf.query({"foaf:name": "?name", "foaf:age": [ 15, "?age" ]}); ←
17:14:35 <manu1> manu1: We could use microsyntaxes for queries - that could work, yes - but then people need to learn a microsyntax
Manu Sporny: We could use microsyntaxes for queries - that could work, yes - but then people need to learn a microsyntax [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
17:15:18 <markbirbeck> var p = document.data.rdf.query({"foaf:name": "?name", "foaf:age": function(val) { return val + 20;} });
Mark Birbeck: var p = document.data.rdf.query({"foaf:name": "?name", "foaf:age": function(val) { return val + 20;} }); ←
17:15:20 <markbirbeck> :)
Mark Birbeck: :) ←
17:15:40 <markbirbeck> Oh yes, I forgot...learning an API is real easy, but somehow microsyntaxes are a bind! ;)
Mark Birbeck: Oh yes, I forgot...learning an API is real easy, but somehow microsyntaxes are a bind! ;) ←
17:15:48 <ivan> zakim, drop me
Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me ←
17:15:48 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected ←
17:15:50 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
17:15:55 <manu1> cheeky, cheeky
Manu Sporny: cheeky, cheeky ←
17:16:17 <markbirbeck> I'm not for or against microsyntaxes in principle, but in this context we have a lot of existing microsyntaxes that we can leverage.
Mark Birbeck: I'm not for or against microsyntaxes in principle, but in this context we have a lot of existing microsyntaxes that we can leverage. ←
17:16:21 <markbirbeck> <uri>
Mark Birbeck: <uri> ←
17:16:46 <markbirbeck> ?name
Mark Birbeck: ?name ←
17:16:52 <markbirbeck> They are familiar.
Mark Birbeck: They are familiar. ←
17:17:02 <markbirbeck> Manu@en
Mark Birbeck: Manu@en ←
17:17:05 <markbirbeck> And so on.
Mark Birbeck: And so on. ←
17:22:59 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
17:23:01 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended ←
17:23:02 <Zakim> Attendees were tinkster, Shane, Ivan, Benjamin, Knud, markbirbeck, [IPcaller], manu1
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were tinkster, Shane, Ivan, Benjamin, Knud, markbirbeck, [IPcaller], manu1 ←
17:23:18 <manu1> reading back over your comments... I don't disagree with you entirely, Mark.
Manu Sporny: reading back over your comments... I don't disagree with you entirely, Mark. ←
17:24:06 <manu1> but, I thought that we didn't want to expose RDF-y things to people in the RDFa API?
Manu Sporny: but, I thought that we didn't want to expose RDF-y things to people in the RDFa API? ←
17:24:21 <manu1> Why should anyone know that something is a TypedLiteral via the RDFa API?
Manu Sporny: Why should anyone know that something is a TypedLiteral via the RDFa API? ←
17:24:38 <manu1> That requires them to know RDF, which may not be ideal?
Manu Sporny: That requires them to know RDF, which may not be ideal? ←
17:25:03 <manu1> "Mark@en" <--- asks the question: Do we want to expose web developers to that?
Manu Sporny: "Mark@en" <--- asks the question: Do we want to expose web developers to that? ←
17:26:26 <manu1> I agree that we loose specificity by doing that... but is that an acceptable loss?
Manu Sporny: I agree that we loose specificity by doing that... but is that an acceptable loss? ←
17:27:05 <manu1> Microsyntaxes are a bind because they're so many of them - (I note the irony of saying that being a participant in the JSON-LD work)
Manu Sporny: Microsyntaxes are a bind because they're so many of them - (I note the irony of saying that being a participant in the JSON-LD work) ←
17:27:25 <manu1> So, unless we're going to commit to them full-tilt, we may want to stay away from them.
Manu Sporny: So, unless we're going to commit to them full-tilt, we may want to stay away from them. ←
17:27:32 <markbirbeck> Sorry...I'm not saying that we expose web developers to them.
Mark Birbeck: Sorry...I'm not saying that we expose web developers to them. ←
17:28:03 <markbirbeck> I'm just saying that there are many useful microsyntaxes already.
Mark Birbeck: I'm just saying that there are many useful microsyntaxes already. ←
17:28:10 <manu1> true
Manu Sporny: true ←
17:28:18 <manu1> but only for those that know TURTLE, N3, etc.
Manu Sporny: but only for those that know TURTLE, N3, etc. ←
17:28:29 <manu1> and I don't think we're trying to cater to that audience w/ the RDFa API
Manu Sporny: and I don't think we're trying to cater to that audience w/ the RDFa API ←
17:28:35 <markbirbeck> Yes, but I regard what we're doing as an 'on-ramp' to RDF.
Mark Birbeck: Yes, but I regard what we're doing as an 'on-ramp' to RDF. ←
17:28:54 <markbirbeck> I can use "?name" in a query without knowing RDF.
Mark Birbeck: I can use "?name" in a query without knowing RDF. ←
17:29:05 <manu1> true
Manu Sporny: true ←
17:29:21 <manu1> and for some reason I don't have much of a problem w/ that
Manu Sporny: and for some reason I don't have much of a problem w/ that ←
17:29:29 <markbirbeck> But if I then start to learn SPARQL or N3 (or even SQL for that matter) what I've learned will transpose.
Mark Birbeck: But if I then start to learn SPARQL or N3 (or even SQL for that matter) what I've learned will transpose. ←
17:29:50 <markbirbeck> (SQL uses ?name and a *lot* of people will be familiar with that.)
Mark Birbeck: (SQL uses ?name and a *lot* of people will be familiar with that.) ←
17:30:02 <manu1> I do have a problem with combining a query and a mapping.
Manu Sporny: I do have a problem with combining a query and a mapping. ←
17:30:07 <manu1> It's natural to do in SPARQL.
Manu Sporny: It's natural to do in SPARQL. ←
17:30:15 <manu1> I don't know if it's natural to do for a JavaScript developer
Manu Sporny: I don't know if it's natural to do for a JavaScript developer ←
17:30:20 <manu1> it doesn't feel natural.
Manu Sporny: it doesn't feel natural. ←
17:30:33 <manu1> It seems simpler to say: You do a query with two items - the query, and a mapping.
Manu Sporny: It seems simpler to say: You do a query with two items - the query, and a mapping. ←
17:31:32 <manu1> rather than, you do a query with one item, which will include both the query and a mapping... if you want to query and map for the same property, use an array where the first item is the query and the second item is the map. If you just want to map, just put a string with a '?' in front of it.
Manu Sporny: rather than, you do a query with one item, which will include both the query and a mapping... if you want to query and map for the same property, use an array where the first item is the query and the second item is the map. If you just want to map, just put a string with a '?' in front of it. ←
17:33:53 <manu1> I don't have a problem w/ either approach, but I worry that beginning web developers might.
Manu Sporny: I don't have a problem w/ either approach, but I worry that beginning web developers might. ←
17:34:16 <manu1> also, don't forget that we need to define an escape character - '\'
Manu Sporny: also, don't forget that we need to define an escape character - '\' ←
17:34:21 <manu1> if we use "?"
Manu Sporny: if we use "?" ←
17:35:06 <markbirbeck> I don't see it as a query *and* a mapping...I think that's overcomplicating it.
Mark Birbeck: I don't see it as a query *and* a mapping...I think that's overcomplicating it. ←
17:35:12 <markbirbeck> I see it as a *template*.
Mark Birbeck: I see it as a *template*. ←
17:35:26 <markbirbeck> I think that would very easy for people to understand.
Mark Birbeck: I think that would very easy for people to understand. ←
17:35:40 <markbirbeck> We're creating a template and then asking the engine to populate it.
Mark Birbeck: We're creating a template and then asking the engine to populate it. ←
17:36:10 <manu1> I think both are potentially easy for people to understand - the question is, which one is easier? Which one will work with a wider audience.
Manu Sporny: I think both are potentially easy for people to understand - the question is, which one is easier? Which one will work with a wider audience. ←
17:36:12 <markbirbeck> Wherever we have "?x" then the engine can insert values.
Mark Birbeck: Wherever we have "?x" then the engine can insert values. ←
17:36:19 <manu1> (as I don't see technical issues w/ either approach)
Manu Sporny: (as I don't see technical issues w/ either approach) ←
17:36:20 <markbirbeck> Otherwise it just leaves them alone.
Mark Birbeck: Otherwise it just leaves them alone. ←
17:36:26 <manu1> ahh, I see.
Manu Sporny: ahh, I see. ←
17:36:36 <manu1> what you're saying... let me think if that changes my mind.
Manu Sporny: what you're saying... let me think if that changes my mind. ←
17:36:44 <markbirbeck> Actually...I've just changed my own mind!
Mark Birbeck: Actually...I've just changed my own mind! ←
17:36:49 <markbirbeck> Mmm...
Mark Birbeck: Mmm... ←
17:37:04 <markbirbeck> Have to think a bit more.
Mark Birbeck: Have to think a bit more. ←
17:37:22 <markbirbeck> I've just changed from having projections (which lose the predicates) to having templates!
Mark Birbeck: I've just changed from having projections (which lose the predicates) to having templates! ←
17:37:38 <manu1> I think your template-engine suggestion is good - it does make sense - but isn't it just an implementation detail?
Manu Sporny: I think your template-engine suggestion is good - it does make sense - but isn't it just an implementation detail? ←
17:37:54 <manu1> so, you pass in the object that you want?
Manu Sporny: so, you pass in the object that you want? ←
17:37:57 <manu1> attributes and all?
Manu Sporny: attributes and all? ←
17:38:17 <markbirbeck> No that wasn't what I was after...sorry. :(
Mark Birbeck: No that wasn't what I was after...sorry. :( ←
17:38:21 <manu1> you pass in a projection to: document.data.query(projection)?
Manu Sporny: you pass in a projection to: document.data.query(projection)? ←
17:38:30 <markbirbeck> That was my intention, yes.
Mark Birbeck: That was my intention, yes. ←
17:38:33 <manu1> but it would nicely, wouldn't it?
Manu Sporny: but it would nicely, wouldn't it? ←
17:38:44 <manu1> ok, now I really have to go, but will think more about all this.
Manu Sporny: ok, now I really have to go, but will think more about all this. ←
17:38:51 <markbirbeck> Except you still need to map, if you want to do rs[0].age.
Mark Birbeck: Except you still need to map, if you want to do rs[0].age. ←
17:39:07 <markbirbeck> Unless you express "age" as the predicate in the query.
Mark Birbeck: Unless you express "age" as the predicate in the query. ←
17:39:41 <markbirbeck> But what I liked about my projection approach is that you are encouraged to map the original predicates to something else.
Mark Birbeck: But what I liked about my projection approach is that you are encouraged to map the original predicates to something else. ←
17:39:49 <markbirbeck> I.e., something more meaningful.
Mark Birbeck: I.e., something more meaningful. ←
17:41:07 <markbirbeck> var rs = document.query( { "foaf:name": "?person", "foaf:knows" : { "foaf:name": "?friend" } } );
Mark Birbeck: var rs = document.query( { "foaf:name": "?person", "foaf:knows" : { "foaf:name": "?friend" } } ); ←
17:41:56 <markbirbeck> alert(rs[0].name + " is friends with " + rs[0].friend);
Mark Birbeck: alert(rs[0].name + " is friends with " + rs[0].friend); ←
17:44:05 <Nathan> Do RDFa Profiles not mean that an RDF-API implementation is /required/ ?
Nathan Rixham: Do RDFa Profiles not maden that an RDF-API implementation is /required/ ? ←
17:47:12 <markbirbeck> Hey, didn't someone raise that as a problem once?
Mark Birbeck: Hey, didn't someone raise that as a problem once? ←
17:47:14 <markbirbeck> ;)
Mark Birbeck: ;) ←
17:50:46 <markbirbeck> Nathan: The Graph interface should derive from RDFNode, because (a) you can have a graph in any position in a triple, and (b) you want the referenced graph to be live.
Nathan Rixham: The Graph interface should derive from RDFNode, because (a) you can have a graph in any position in a triple, and (b) you want the referenced graph to be live. [ Scribe Assist by Mark Birbeck ] ←
17:57:14 <Nathan> (still not here) (a) it still derives from RDFNode so can be in any position (b) referenced graph would still be live, RDFNode.value = live value now, not lexical string, so is instance of Graph
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Nathan Rixham: (still not here) (a) it still derives from RDFNode so can be in any position (b) referenced graph would still be live, RDFNode.value = live value now, not lexical string, so is instance of Graph ←
18:00:16 <Nathan> (c) it allows graph literals to have an optional datatype, which they'll probably need
Nathan Rixham: (c) it allows graph literals to have an optional datatype, which they'll probably need ←
18:00:35 <Nathan> ps - re comment about profiles earlier, got a feelign a few key points you've mae have been missed thus far
Nathan Rixham: ps - re comment about profiles earlier, got a feelign a few key points you've mae have been missed thus far ←
18:00:45 <Nathan> s/mea/made
18:01:26 <Nathan> w/o profiles RDFa and it's API can run @ DOM level, with Profiles a full RDF Stack is required
Nathan Rixham: w/o profiles RDFa and it's API can run @ DOM level, with Profiles a full RDF Stack is required ←
19:28:35 <markbirbeck> Right. Except that with profiles defined using a simple syntax, along the lines of that used in @prefix you also don't need the full RDF stack.
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Mark Birbeck: Right. Except that with profiles defined using a simple syntax, along the lines of that used in @prefix you also don't need the full RDF stack. ←
19:29:13 <markbirbeck> (Not sure how those points "have been missed thus far" though...I've been a bit of a broken record on this one. :( )
Mark Birbeck: (Not sure how those points "have been missed thus far" though...I've been a bit of a broken record on this one. :( ) ←
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