edit

RDFa Working Group

Minutes of 24 March 2010

Seen
Ivan Herman, Manu Sporny
Scribe
Manu Sporny
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics

There are some format problems with the chatlog. Please correct them and reload this page. They are labeled on this page in a red box, like this message.

It may be helpful to

13:46:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/24-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/24-rdfa-irc

13:46:28 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, set log public

13:55:53 <manu> manu has changed the topic to: Ad-hoc meeting to discuss: http://doodle.com/uqe9pxru7eu8n7d8 (manu)

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Manu Sporny: manu has changed the topic to: Ad-hoc meeting to discuss: http://doodle.com/uqe9pxru7eu8n7d8 (manu)

13:56:08 <manu> hrm, Mark still hasn't replied...

Manu Sporny: hrm, Mark still hasn't replied...

14:00:34 <ivan> ouch

Ivan Herman: ouch

14:00:45 <ivan> well, we can have our conversation:-)

Ivan Herman: well, we can have our conversation:-)

14:00:59 <ivan> you are gathering opinions anyway...

Ivan Herman: you are gathering opinions anyway...

14:01:08 <manu> yes, true...

Manu Sporny: yes, true...

14:01:12 <ivan> just ping me when you are ready

Ivan Herman: just ping me when you are ready

14:01:17 <manu> I'm ready...

Manu Sporny: I'm ready...

14:01:31 <ivan> should I create an ad-hoc zakim channel now?

Ivan Herman: should I create an ad-hoc zakim channel now?

14:01:39 <manu> we have two options.

Manu Sporny: we have two options.

14:01:55 <manu> we can try to have the telecon at 12pm

Manu Sporny: we can try to have the telecon at 12pm

14:02:08 <manu> or I can gather your opinions now and then have a separate telecon with Mark.

Manu Sporny: or I can gather your opinions now and then have a separate telecon with Mark.

14:02:28 <ivan> I know that I am at fault here, sorry about that, but 12pm is a bit awkward for me indeed

Ivan Herman: I know that I am at fault here, sorry about that, but 12pm is a bit awkward for me indeed

14:02:32 <manu> up to you - if you think 12pm would be pushing it, let's have the telecon now.

Manu Sporny: up to you - if you think 12pm would be pushing it, let's have the telecon now.

14:02:38 <manu> ok, let's do the telecon now, then.

Manu Sporny: ok, let's do the telecon now, then.

14:02:50 <ivan> so, watch what is happening on irc:-)

Ivan Herman: so, watch what is happening on irc:-)

14:03:04 <ivan> zakim, room for 3 for 90 minutes?

Ivan Herman: zakim, room for 3 for 90 minutes?

14:03:05 <Zakim> ok, ivan; conference Team_(rdfa)14:03Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 90 minutes until 1533Z

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; conference Team_(rdfa)14:03Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 90 minutes until 1533Z

14:03:11 <ivan> that is it:-)

Ivan Herman: that is it:-)

14:03:15 <ivan> this is ralph magic:-)

Ivan Herman: this is ralph magic:-)

14:03:22 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:03:22 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:03:23 <Zakim> Team_(rdfa)14:03Z has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(rdfa)14:03Z has now started

14:03:24 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:03:29 <manu> zakim, code?

Manu Sporny: zakim, code?

14:03:29 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), manu

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), manu

14:03:53 <ivan> I am in, waiting for you...

Ivan Herman: I am in, waiting for you...

14:04:04 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

14:04:13 <manu> zakim, I am ??P3

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P3

14:04:13 <Zakim> +manu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it

14:06:50 <manu> scribenick: manu

(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)

14:07:05 <manu> Ivan: So, let's get started - let me try to summarize things the way I see it.

Ivan Herman: So, let's get started - let me try to summarize things the way I see it.

14:07:14 <manu> Manu: ok

Manu Sporny: ok

14:07:21 <manu> Ivan: Had a brief chat with Ralph about this stuff...

Ivan Herman: Had a brief chat with Ralph about this stuff...

14:07:59 <manu> Ivan: I must admit, I need to understand @vocab/@map/@token .

Ivan Herman: I must admit, I need to understand @vocab/@map/@token .

14:08:15 <manu> Ivan: Couple of things that are no-brainers for me - things that we need in RDFa 1.1

Ivan Herman: Couple of things that are no-brainers for me - things that we need in RDFa 1.1

14:08:19 <manu> Ivan: We need an alternative to xmlns:

Ivan Herman: We need an alternative to xmlns:

14:08:33 <manu> Ivan: maybe @vocab attribute or something like that - we have to have that.

Ivan Herman: maybe @vocab attribute or something like that - we have to have that.

14:08:54 <manu> Ivan: Default prefix for keywords - simple and works well for simple cases - very obvious.

Ivan Herman: Default prefix for keywords - simple and works well for simple cases - very obvious.

14:09:34 <manu> Ivan: There is some disagreement on @profile file stuff.

Ivan Herman: There is some disagreement on @profile file stuff.

14:10:00 <manu> Ivan: There is the issue whether what is pulled in is essentially RDF in some encoding, which produces triples that are used in the author document - the RDFa Vocabulary proposal.

Ivan Herman: There is the issue whether what is pulled in is essentially RDF in some encoding, which produces triples that are used in the author document - the RDFa Vocabulary proposal.

14:10:35 <manu> Ivan: The other disagreement, I don't understand, context-specific interpretation of RDFa attributes via @token - scares the hell out of me... sounds complicated.

Ivan Herman: The other disagreement, I don't understand, context-specific interpretation of RDFa attributes via @token - scares the hell out of me... sounds complicated.

14:10:58 <manu> Ivan: extra difficulties for tool providers... don't understand what it buys us.

Ivan Herman: extra difficulties for tool providers... don't understand what it buys us.

14:13:11 <manu> Manu: This is part of Mark's @token proposal

Manu Sporny: This is part of Mark's @token proposal

14:13:47 <manu> Ivan: Very ugly architecturally, it hides data, tool providers will have to have two different ways to parse an RDFa file - very very confusing.

Ivan Herman: Very ugly architecturally, it hides data, tool providers will have to have two different ways to parse an RDFa file - very very confusing.

14:14:28 <manu> Ivan: One more argument in favor of cleaner RDFa usage - it's true that at the moment, this may look like it's more complicated, however, what this also gives us is a general mechanism that can be re-used in a future version of RDFa.

Ivan Herman: One more argument in favor of cleaner RDFa usage - it's true that at the moment, this may look like it's more complicated, however, what this also gives us is a general mechanism that can be re-used in a future version of RDFa.

14:14:50 <manu> Ivan: This allows us to add additional things later on - two examples.

Ivan Herman: This allows us to add additional things later on - two examples.

14:15:08 <manu> Ivan: My example is on whether or not we want to restrict keywords to specific attributes.

Ivan Herman: My example is on whether or not we want to restrict keywords to specific attributes.

14:15:39 <manu> Ivan: If we want to have such a restriction - I don't think we want to do that, but if we do - it's a trivial extension - rdfa:relrev

Ivan Herman: If we want to have such a restriction - I don't think we want to do that, but if we do - it's a trivial extension - rdfa:relrev

14:15:45 <manu> Ivan: This next one comes from Ralph

Ivan Herman: This next one comes from Ralph

14:16:20 <ivan> [

Ivan Herman: [

14:16:22 <manu> Ivan: If we have in the future, we can have profiles like this:

Ivan Herman: If we have in the future, we can have profiles like this:

14:16:34 <ivan> rdfa:uri "blablab"

Scribe problem: the name 'rdfa' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Abhijit Gaikwad BOUBA FANTA Ben Adida Benjamin Adrian Ivan Herman Jean-Pierre EVAIN Jeffrey Sonstein John O'Donovan Knud Möller Manu Sporny Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Robert Weir Sarah Pulis Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Toby Inkster Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown rdfa: uri "blablab" [ Scribe Assist by Ivan Herman ]

14:16:44 <ivan> rdfa:alias "b"

Scribe problem: the name 'rdfa' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Abhijit Gaikwad BOUBA FANTA Ben Adida Benjamin Adrian Ivan Herman Jean-Pierre EVAIN Jeffrey Sonstein John O'Donovan Knud Möller Manu Sporny Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Robert Weir Sarah Pulis Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Toby Inkster Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown rdfa: alias "b" [ Scribe Assist by Ivan Herman ]

14:16:59 <ivan> <blablab> a owl:Ontology ;

Ivan Herman: <blablab> a owl:Ontology ;

14:17:15 <ivan> <blablab> isatURI "balblab"

Ivan Herman: <blablab> isatURI "balblab"

14:17:23 <ivan> <blabalba> has ....

Ivan Herman: <blabalba> has ....

14:17:24 <ivan> ]

Ivan Herman: ]

14:19:04 <manu> Manu: Mark's position is that this is too complicated - why not just token="keyword: mapping; keyword: mapping;"?

Manu Sporny: Mark's position is that this is too complicated - why not just token="keyword: mapping; keyword: mapping;"?

14:19:08 <ivan> [ rdfa:uri "bbb"; rdf:alias "b" }

Ivan Herman: [ rdfa:uri "bbb"; rdf:alias "b" ]

14:19:13 <ivan> s/}/]/
14:19:49 <ivan> { "uri" : "bbbb", "alias" : "b" }

Ivan Herman: { "uri" : "bbbb", "alias" : "b" }

14:19:50 <manu> Manu: he thinks we need it eventually , but the simpler solution is @token righ tnow

Manu Sporny: he thinks we need it eventually , but the simpler solution is @token righ tnow

14:21:53 <manu> Manu: Mark's point is that we're going to use text/html + rdfa...

Manu Sporny: Mark's point is that we're going to use text/html + rdfa...

14:22:12 <manu> Manu: Are the people that are going to create RDFa Profiles going to have the technical knowledge to use this mechanism?

Manu Sporny: Are the people that are going to create RDFa Profiles going to have the technical knowledge to use this mechanism?

14:22:25 <manu> Ivan: There are far more people that will /use/ RDFa Profiles than /create/ RDFa Profiles.

Ivan Herman: There are far more people that will /use/ RDFa Profiles than /create/ RDFa Profiles.

14:22:37 <manu> Ivan: We are optimizing on the users of those profiles, not the authors of the profiles.

Ivan Herman: We are optimizing on the users of those profiles, not the authors of the profiles.

14:23:07 <manu> Ivan: we are not optimizing on the profile authors.

Ivan Herman: we are not optimizing on the profile authors.

14:23:28 <manu> Ivan: @token is much more complicated than this because of it switching context.

Ivan Herman: @token is much more complicated than this because of it switching context.

14:26:45 <manu> Manu: Yes, but Mark does have a point @token is simpler to use syntactically.

Manu Sporny: Yes, but Mark does have a point @token is simpler to use syntactically.

14:27:01 <manu> Ivan: Yes, but it makes interpretation of it and the mental model very confusing.

Ivan Herman: Yes, but it makes interpretation of it and the mental model very confusing.

14:27:22 <manu> Ivan: We are saying via the @token proposal, that it's okay to interpret a document in two completely different ways.

Ivan Herman: We are saying via the @token proposal, that it's okay to interpret a document in two completely different ways.

14:27:45 <manu> Ivan: RDFa Vocabulary syntax is slightly more complicated, BUT it's an open-ended upgrade mechanism.

Ivan Herman: RDFa Vocabulary syntax is slightly more complicated, BUT it's an open-ended upgrade mechanism.

14:28:17 <manu> Topic: Are collapsing prefixes/keywords into a single concept.

1. Are collapsing prefixes/keywords into a single concept.

14:29:03 <manu> Ivan: It is correct that the collapse of keywords and prefixes is consistent - that's right, it's perfectly consistent.

Ivan Herman: It is correct that the collapse of keywords and prefixes is consistent - that's right, it's perfectly consistent.

14:29:15 <manu> Ivan: If we did it today from scratch, I would agree with it.

Ivan Herman: If we did it today from scratch, I would agree with it.

14:30:03 <manu> Ivan: The problem is, and I agree with Ben, that we have already developed a mental model for RDFa 1.0 - we have written Primers and Tutorials with a conceptual separation of prefixes and keywords, if we want to do what Mark is saying, we have to do a decent amount of work to make it clean.

Ivan Herman: The problem is, and I agree with Ben, that we have already developed a mental model for RDFa 1.0 - we have written Primers and Tutorials with a conceptual separation of prefixes and keywords, if we want to do what Mark is saying, we have to do a decent amount of work to make it clean.

14:30:20 <manu> Ivan: This is not the way we presented CURIEs, this is not the way we presented in the Primer,

Ivan Herman: This is not the way we presented CURIEs, this is not the way we presented in the Primer,

14:30:56 <manu> Ivan: I accept that it is proper and clean, but I'm not sure that this is something that is worth it... we don't really need the collapse.

Ivan Herman: I accept that it is proper and clean, but I'm not sure that this is something that is worth it... we don't really need the collapse.

14:31:10 <manu> Ivan: We can do all of this other stuff by not collapsing the concepts.

Ivan Herman: We can do all of this other stuff by not collapsing the concepts.

14:31:27 <manu> Ivan: it doesn't buy us too much... now that I say that,

Ivan Herman: it doesn't buy us too much... now that I say that,

14:31:49 <manu> Ivan: If we want to put extra restrictions on how certain keywords can be used, collapsing doesn't really work well anymore.

Ivan Herman: If we want to put extra restrictions on how certain keywords can be used, collapsing doesn't really work well anymore.

14:32:21 <manu> Ivan: it would be reasonable to say that keywords are classes - keywords can be used only in @typeof/@rel/@rev - it would be a reasonable restriction.

Ivan Herman: it would be reasonable to say that keywords are classes - keywords can be used only in @typeof/@rel/@rev - it would be a reasonable restriction.

14:32:56 <manu> Ivan: it makes sense to have such restrictions... I don't feel very strongly about the restrictions, but let's not throw that out just yet.

Ivan Herman: it makes sense to have such restrictions... I don't feel very strongly about the restrictions, but let's not throw that out just yet.

14:33:41 <manu> Manu: So, Ben said that he is very much against defining prefixes in RDFa Profile Documents.

Manu Sporny: So, Ben said that he is very much against defining prefixes in RDFa Profile Documents.

14:36:12 <manu> Manu: *explains ben's position*

Manu Sporny: *explains ben's position*

14:36:49 <manu> Ivan: I know there is this worry that RDFa 1.0 processors might process RDFa 1.1 documents - bottom line, @profile everywhere is not allowed in HTML5 or XHTML.

Ivan Herman: I know there is this worry that RDFa 1.0 processors might process RDFa 1.1 documents - bottom line, @profile everywhere is not allowed in HTML5 or XHTML.

14:37:02 <manu> Ivan: The "process invalid documents" argument doesn't resonate for me.

Ivan Herman: The "process invalid documents" argument doesn't resonate for me.

14:37:18 <manu> Ivan: As for the second argument, what does it buy me by knowing where a @prefix is coming from?

Ivan Herman: As for the second argument, what does it buy me by knowing where a @prefix is coming from?

14:39:13 <manu> Ivan: If it comes from an RDFa profile document, and I can't dereference @profile, we can use warnings to state that the prefix may be invalid.

Ivan Herman: If it comes from an RDFa profile document, and I can't dereference @profile, we can use warnings to state that the prefix may be invalid.

14:39:20 <manu> Ivan: What does it buy me to know where the prefix comes from?

Ivan Herman: What does it buy me to know where the prefix comes from?

14:40:55 <manu> Ivan: Authors can create situations where they shoot themselves in the foot - but this has always been a usability issue for a long time.

Ivan Herman: Authors can create situations where they shoot themselves in the foot - but this has always been a usability issue for a long time.

14:41:25 <manu> Ivan: Allowing prefixes to be defined in RDFa Profile documents allows authors to not make xmlns: declaration errors.

Ivan Herman: Allowing prefixes to be defined in RDFa Profile documents allows authors to not make xmlns: declaration errors.

14:42:10 <manu> Ivan: If I want an RDFa Profile to use foaf and dc, and I don't want my authors to deal with too many difficulties, I could create a whole bunch of keywords - 100 different keywords, or I could just specify two prefixes.

Ivan Herman: If I want an RDFa Profile to use foaf and dc, and I don't want my authors to deal with too many difficulties, I could create a whole bunch of keywords - 100 different keywords, or I could just specify two prefixes.

14:42:26 <manu> Ivan: Not allowing prefixes ensures that the RDFa Profile mechanism doesn't scale.

Ivan Herman: Not allowing prefixes ensures that the RDFa Profile mechanism doesn't scale.

14:42:49 <manu> Ivan: let's not forget that there are people out there that have no problem using LOTS of prefixes... we want to address their needs as well.

Ivan Herman: let's not forget that there are people out there that have no problem using LOTS of prefixes... we want to address their needs as well.

14:43:20 <manu> Ivan: I know my example is a bit extreme, 15 prefixes... but others may do this too.

Ivan Herman: I know my example is a bit extreme, 15 prefixes... but others may do this too.

14:44:53 <manu> Manu: What about "The Default RDFa Profile"?

Manu Sporny: What about "The Default RDFa Profile"?

14:45:15 <manu> Ivan: less of a strong argument for me - I would include RDF RDFS SKOS OWL

Ivan Herman: less of a strong argument for me - I would include RDF RDFS SKOS OWL

14:46:19 <manu> Ivan: Perhaps RDFa - that is a big social issue - what to add, what not to add - W3C would make selections - which is bad

Ivan Herman: Perhaps RDFa - that is a big social issue - what to add, what not to add - W3C would make selections - which is bad

14:46:31 <manu> Ivan: I don't think it's a strong argument, not fully sure that we should go there.

Ivan Herman: I don't think it's a strong argument, not fully sure that we should go there.

14:48:23 <manu> Ivan: I am still of the opinion that using RDFa vocabulary to define RDFa Profile document is the way to go - feel very strongly about that.

Ivan Herman: I am still of the opinion that using RDFa vocabulary to define RDFa Profile document is the way to go - feel very strongly about that.

14:48:55 <manu> Ivan: Having a default prefix mechanism is good - I am in favor of that.

Ivan Herman: Having a default prefix mechanism is good - I am in favor of that.

14:49:11 <manu> Ivan: I am dead against bringing RDF Schema into the picture - really don't want to see that.

Ivan Herman: I am dead against bringing RDF Schema into the picture - really don't want to see that.

14:49:33 <manu> Ivan: We would shoot ourselves in the foot if we started to do something like that.

Ivan Herman: We would shoot ourselves in the foot if we started to do something like that.

14:50:44 <manu> Ivan: Having an error reporting mechanism in RDFa Processor would be important.

Ivan Herman: Having an error reporting mechanism in RDFa Processor would be important.

15:06:13 <Zakim> -manu

(No events recorded for 15 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu

15:06:19 <ivan> zakim, drop me

Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me

15:06:19 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected

15:06:21 <Zakim> Team_(rdfa)14:03Z has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(rdfa)14:03Z has ended

15:06:21 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, manu

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Ivan, manu

15:06:25 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:06:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/24-rdfa-minutes.html manu

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/24-rdfa-minutes.html manu

15:06:30 <manu> rrsagent, make logs public

rrsagent, make logs public

15:20:07 <manu> zakim, bye

(No events recorded for 13 minutes)

zakim, bye

15:20:12 <manu> rrsagent bye

rrsagent bye

15:20:14 <manu> rrsagent, bye

rrsagent, bye

15:20:14 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items

15:47:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/24-rdfa-irc

(No events recorded for 26 minutes)

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/24-rdfa-irc

16:53:46 <manu> rrsagent, bye

(No events recorded for 66 minutes)

rrsagent, bye

16:53:48 <manu> zakim, bye

zakim, bye

16:53:57 <manu> rrsagent, make logs public

rrsagent, make logs public

16:54:00 <manu> rrsagent, bye

rrsagent, bye

16:54:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



Formatted by CommonScribe