Meeting Record

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RDFa in XHTML Task Force

Minutes of 28 January 2010

Agenda

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0063.html

Present

Unknown Manu_Sporny, Unknown Ivan_Herman

Regrets

Unknown Ben_Adida

Chair

Unknown Sporny

Scribe

Unknown Birbeck, Unknown markbirbeck

Previous Meeting

http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

None.

Topics

Action Items
RDFa Community Updates
Pre-loading prefixes
RDFa prefix pre-loading

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15:48:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc ←

15:48:04 <manu> zakim, this will be rdfa

Scribe problem: the name 'manu' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown manu: zakim, this will be rdfa ←

15:48:04 <Zakim> ok, manu; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, manu; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes ←

15:48:09 <manu> Meeting: RDFa in XHTML Task Force

15:48:14 <manu> Chair: Manu Sporny

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu Sporny' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

15:48:18 <manu> Scribe: Mark Birbeck

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark Birbeck' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(Scribe set to Unknown Birbeck)

15:48:30 <manu> Present: Manu_Sporny, Ivan_Herman

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu_Sporny' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Ivan_Herman' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

15:48:34 <manu> Regrets: Ben_Adida

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben_Adida' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

15:49:26 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0063.html

15:49:57 <manu> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html

15:50:02 <manu> rrsagent, make logs public

Unknown Manu_Sporny: rrsagent, make logs public ←

15:50:05 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

15:50:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu ←

15:53:03 <manu> ACTION: Manu to create basic RDFa API document.

ACTION: Manu to create basic RDFa API document. ←

15:53:21 <manu> ACTION: Manu to test CORS support in latest browsers.

ACTION: Manu to test CORS support for Pre-loading prefixes in latest browsers. ←

15:53:55 <manu> s/in latest browsers/for RDFa vocabs in latest browsers/g

15:54:00 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

15:54:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu ←

15:54:51 <manu> Present+ Mark_Birbeck

Unknown Manu_Sporny: Present+ Mark_Birbeck ←

15:55:57 <ivan> we shall see

Unknown Ivan_Herman: we shall see ←

15:56:16 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

15:56:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu ←

15:56:46 <markbirbeck> Sure Manu.

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Manu_Sporny Unknown Ivan_Herman Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown markbirbeck: Sure Manu. ←

15:56:51 <markbirbeck> Calling in a mo'.

Unknown markbirbeck: Calling in a mo'. ←

15:57:02 <manu> scribenick: markbirbeck

(Scribe set to Unknown markbirbeck)

15:58:46 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Unknown Ivan_Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←

15:58:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←

15:58:47 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started ←

15:58:47 <Zakim> +Dialer

Zakim IRC Bot: +Dialer ←

15:58:48 <Zakim> -Dialer

Zakim IRC Bot: -Dialer ←

15:58:53 <ivan> ????

Unknown Ivan_Herman: ???? ←

15:58:54 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended ←

15:58:55 <Zakim> Attendees were Dialer

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Dialer ←

15:59:03 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Unknown Ivan_Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←

15:59:03 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←

15:59:05 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started ←

15:59:06 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←

15:59:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←

15:59:35 <markbirbeck> zakim, codes?

zakim, codes? ←

15:59:35 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, markbirbeck. ←

15:59:41 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?

zakim, code? ←

15:59:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck ←

15:59:51 <manu> zakim, I am IPcaller

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, I am IPcaller ←

15:59:51 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller] ←

16:00:15 <Zakim> + +0208761aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +0208761aaaa ←

16:00:25 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa

zakim, i am aaaa ←

16:00:26 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it ←

16:01:20 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Manu_Sporny Unknown Ivan_Herman Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Steven: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

16:01:20 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

16:01:22 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

16:01:58 <Steven> zakim, mute me

Unknown Steven: zakim, mute me ←

16:01:58 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Steven should now be muted ←

16:02:07 <Steven> ack me

Unknown Steven: ack me ←

16:03:05 <markbirbeck> Topic: Action Items

1. Action Items

16:03:19 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html

Unknown Manu_Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/21-rdfa-minutes.html ←

16:03:48 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Manu to contact Dan Brickley to discuss Microdata to RDFa mapping.

ACTION: Manu to contact Dan Brickley to discuss Microdata to RDFa mapping. ←

16:03:57 <markbirbeck> --done

--done ←

16:04:32 <markbirbeck> Dan has been talking to Hixie on WHATWG mailing-list to see what the overlap between Microdata and RDFa is.

Dan has been talking to Hixie on WHATWG mailing-list to see what the overlap between Microdata and RDFa is. ←

16:05:03 <markbirbeck> There seems to be a feeling that Microdata is at the very least a subset of RDFa.

There seems to be a feeling that Microdata is at the very least a subset of RDFa. ←

16:05:43 <markbirbeck> It may be possible to create a profile to use XSLT to map from one to the other.

It may be possible to create a profile to use XSLT to map from one to the other. ←

16:06:04 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142.

ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. ←

16:06:08 <markbirbeck> --continues

--continues ←

16:06:30 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142.

ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. ←

16:06:41 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix

ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix ←

16:06:48 <markbirbeck> --continues

--continues ←

16:06:53 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

16:07:01 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents

ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents ←

16:07:06 <markbirbeck> --continues

--continues ←

16:07:36 <markbirbeck> ACTION: ShaneM to identify the requirements for html2ps and see about getting reSpec to support them.

ACTION: ShaneM to identify the requirements for html2ps and see about getting reSpec to support them. ←

16:07:40 <markbirbeck> --continues

--continues ←

16:11:36 <manu> zakim, who is making noise?

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, who is making noise? ←

16:11:48 <Zakim> manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (18%), markbirbeck (47%), Ivan (55%)

Zakim IRC Bot: manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (18%), markbirbeck (47%), Ivan (55%) ←

16:11:49 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/

Unknown Ivan_Herman: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/ ←

16:12:03 <manu> zakim, mute markbirbeck

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, mute markbirbeck ←

16:12:03 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck should now be muted ←

16:12:14 <markbirbeck> It's traffic outside.

It's traffic outside. ←

16:12:24 <markbirbeck> I don't see why I'm echoing though.

I don't see why I'm echoing though. ←

16:13:16 <markbirbeck> Right. :) Traffic is making noise, but I don't see why it causes echo.

Right. :) Traffic is making noise, but I don't see why it causes echo. ←

16:17:13 <markbirbeck> great news though. :)

great news though. :) ←

16:17:37 <markbirbeck> Topic: RDFa Community Updates

2. RDFa Community Updates

16:17:50 <markbirbeck> Manu: Had a chance to read Benji's comments?

Unknown Manu_Sporny: Had a chance to read Benji's comments? ←

16:18:50 <markbirbeck> ... Benji wrote blog-post that was quite critical of RDFa community.

... Benji wrote blog-post that was quite critical of RDFa community. ←

16:19:27 <markbirbeck> ... He feels that pushing Microdata is a better option for adoption.

... He feels that pushing Microdata is a better option for adoption. ←

16:20:06 <markbirbeck> ... His past posts of the years are along much the same lines, that the solution should be a collection of tokens, a la Microformats.

... His past posts of the years are along much the same lines, that the solution should be a collection of tokens, a la Microformats. ←

16:20:39 <ivan> q+

Unknown Ivan_Herman: q+ ←

16:20:40 <markbirbeck> ... We should take his comments seriously, since he represents an identifiable set of concerns.

... We should take his comments seriously, since he represents an identifiable set of concerns. ←

16:21:30 <markbirbeck> Ivan: We did discuss the possibility of defining Microdata as a profile of RDFa, and I would be in favour of that.

Unknown Ivan_Herman: We did discuss the possibility of defining Microdata as a profile of RDFa, and I would be in favour of that. ←

16:21:51 <markbirbeck> ... But this post talks of removing things that it doesn't seem possible to remove, such as @resource.

... But this post talks of removing things that it doesn't seem possible to remove, such as @resource. ←

16:22:10 <Steven> q+

Unknown Steven: q+ ←

16:22:11 <markbirbeck> ... He doesn't really give an argument for removal.

... He doesn't really give an argument for removal. ←

16:22:16 <Steven> ack ivan

Unknown Steven: ack ivan ←

16:22:43 <markbirbeck> ... Same goes for ranting against CURIEs -- we're working on that and there's not much more we can say.

... Same goes for ranting against CURIEs -- we're working on that and there's not much more we can say. ←

16:23:06 <markbirbeck> ... The idea that one set of attribute names is better than another is really a matter of faith.

... The idea that one set of attribute names is better than another is really a matter of faith. ←

16:23:29 <markbirbeck> ... Whilst we don't care that much about the attribute names, a big problem is existing deployments.

... Whilst we don't care that much about the attribute names, a big problem is existing deployments. ←

16:23:31 <manu> ack steven

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ack steven ←

16:23:32 <markbirbeck> q+

q+ ←

16:24:00 <markbirbeck> Steven: I've been working on RDFa for at least 7 years, and it's not as if it suddenly popped out of nowhere.

Unknown Steven: I've been working on RDFa for at least 7 years, and it's not as if it suddenly popped out of nowhere. ←

16:24:10 <markbirbeck> ... It had discussion, use-cases, etc.

... It had discussion, use-cases, etc. ←

16:24:29 <markbirbeck> ... Microdata comes out of nowhere, but somehow it's presented that RDFa-proponents are in the wrong.

... Microdata comes out of nowhere, but somehow it's presented that RDFa-proponents are in the wrong. ←

16:24:59 <markbirbeck> ... Appreciate the work of bridge-building, but we have to remember that no-one was asking for Microdata.

... Appreciate the work of bridge-building, but we have to remember that no-one was asking for Microdata. ←

16:25:05 <ivan> q+

Unknown Ivan_Herman: q+ ←

16:25:11 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me

zakim, unmute me ←

16:25:11 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck should no longer be muted ←

16:25:18 <manu> ack markbirbeck

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ack markbirbeck ←

16:25:32 <Steven> zakim, mute me

Unknown Steven: zakim, mute me ←

16:25:32 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Steven should now be muted ←

16:25:51 <manu> Mark: I missed the call on Microdata profiles - I think I agree with Steven, I'm not sure I understand what the benefit is.

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Manu_Sporny Unknown Ivan_Herman Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Mark: I missed the call on Microdata profiles - I think I agree with Steven, I'm not sure I understand what the benefit is. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:26:30 <manu> Mark: We've been working on this for years and Microdata is in flux - and is progressively getting closer and closer to RDFa.

Unknown Mark: We've been working on this for years and Microdata is in flux - and is progressively getting closer and closer to RDFa. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:27:00 <manu> Mark: I don't mind the dialog, but we risk damaging deployment if we change all the attribute names.

Unknown Mark: I don't mind the dialog, but we risk damaging deployment if we change all the attribute names. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:27:12 <manu> Mark: It's sort of religious - one attribute is better than another.

Unknown Mark: It's sort of religious - one attribute is better than another. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:27:18 <manu> Mark: but there is another way to view this.

Unknown Mark: but there is another way to view this. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:27:41 <manu> Mark: Changing rel to itemprop may be a bad change - @rel and @rev already has a place in HTML.

Unknown Mark: Changing rel to itemprop may be a bad change - @rel and @rev already has a place in HTML. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:27:54 <manu> Mark: We've been very careful to re-use pre-existing semantic elements in HTML.

Unknown Mark: We've been very careful to re-use pre-existing semantic elements in HTML. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:28:49 <manu> Mark: Microdata duplicates @rel and @rev - so there is a problem here - that new attributes are being defined for old concepts.

Unknown Mark: Microdata duplicates @rel and @rev - so there is a problem here - that new attributes are being defined for old concepts. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:29:28 <Steven> zakim, mute mark

Unknown Steven: zakim, mute mark ←

16:29:28 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck should now be muted ←

16:29:28 <manu> zakim, mute markbirbeck

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, mute markbirbeck ←

16:29:29 <Zakim> markbirbeck was already muted, manu

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck was already muted, manu ←

16:30:32 <manu> q+ to discuss harm that continued bike-shedding may cause.

Unknown Manu_Sporny: q+ to discuss harm that continued bike-shedding may cause. ←

16:30:41 <manu> zakim, I am [IPcaller]

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, I am [IPcaller] ←

16:30:41 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller] ←

16:30:49 <markbirbeck> Ivan: Changing attribute names is out of the question.

Unknown Ivan_Herman: Changing attribute names is out of the question. ←

16:30:51 <manu> zakim, who is on the queue

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, who is on the queue ←

16:30:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the queue', manu

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the queue', manu ←

16:30:55 <manu> zakim, who is on the queue?

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, who is on the queue? ←

16:30:55 <Zakim> I see ivan, [IPcaller] on the speaker queue

Zakim IRC Bot: I see ivan, [IPcaller] on the speaker queue ←

16:31:07 <manu> zakim, I am +IPcaller

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, I am +IPcaller ←

16:31:07 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+IPcaller'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+IPcaller' ←

16:31:14 <markbirbeck> ... On the other hand I don't mind about building bridges.

... On the other hand I don't mind about building bridges. ←

16:31:26 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?

Unknown Steven: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

16:31:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, [IPcaller], markbirbeck (muted), Steven (muted), ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Ivan, [IPcaller], markbirbeck (muted), Steven (muted), ShaneM ←

16:31:32 <Steven> zakim IP is Manu

Unknown Steven: zakim IP is Manu ←

16:31:37 <Steven> zakim, IP is Manu

Unknown Steven: zakim, IP is Manu ←

16:31:37 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named 'IP'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named 'IP' ←

16:31:47 <Steven> zakim, [IP is manu

Unknown Steven: zakim, [IP is manu ←

16:31:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←

16:31:51 <Steven> q?

Unknown Steven: q? ←

16:31:58 <ivan> ack ivan

Unknown Ivan_Herman: ack ivan ←

16:32:09 <Steven> ack [

Unknown Steven: ack [ ←

16:32:09 <Zakim> [IPcaller], you wanted to discuss harm that continued bike-shedding may cause.

Zakim IRC Bot: [IPcaller], you wanted to discuss harm that continued bike-shedding may cause. ←

16:32:29 <markbirbeck> Manu: I'm increasingly concerned about discussions with people like Wikipedia.

Unknown Manu_Sporny: I'm increasingly concerned about discussions with people like Wikipedia. ←

16:33:03 <markbirbeck> ... The problem was that although we know the background to Microdata popping up from nowhere, the outside world doesn't.

... The problem was that although we know the background to Microdata popping up from nowhere, the outside world doesn't. ←

16:33:28 <markbirbeck> ... They just see a 'fight' going on.

... They just see a 'fight' going on. ←

16:33:39 <markbirbeck> ... I think it's harming adoption.

... I think it's harming adoption. ←

16:34:52 <markbirbeck> ... If others implement a Microdata API in the browser, then that could affect adoption.

... If others implement a Microdata API in the browser, then that could affect adoption. ←

16:35:30 <markbirbeck> q+

q+ ←

16:36:09 <manu> ack markbirbeck

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ack markbirbeck ←

16:37:49 <manu> Mark: I don't know if a GRDDL-approach, mapping Microdata to RDFa would work... we've had that discussion before.

Unknown Mark: I don't know if a GRDDL-approach, mapping Microdata to RDFa would work... we've had that discussion before. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:38:13 <manu> Mark: I think we should focus on RDFa API and getting RDFa out there more.

Unknown Mark: I think we should focus on RDFa API and getting RDFa out there more. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:38:32 <ShaneM> I don't think the transform can be isomorphic.

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Manu_Sporny Unknown Ivan_Herman Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: I don't think the transform can be isomorphic. ←

16:38:33 <ivan> q+

Unknown Ivan_Herman: q+ ←

16:38:42 <manu> Mark: RDFa and Microdata are fundamentally not equal.

Unknown Mark: RDFa and Microdata are fundamentally not equal. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:39:20 <manu> Mark: This is the same thing that happened with Microformats - RDFa kept going and I think Microformats are coming to an end soon.

Unknown Mark: This is the same thing that happened with Microformats - RDFa kept going and I think Microformats are coming to an end soon. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:39:36 <manu> ack ivan

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ack ivan ←

16:39:38 <markbirbeck> zakim, mute me

zakim, mute me ←

16:39:38 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck should now be muted ←

16:39:57 <manu> q+

Unknown Manu_Sporny: q+ ←

16:39:57 <markbirbeck> Ivan: Wiki would be a good place to start on some of these ideas.

Unknown Ivan_Herman: Wiki would be a good place to start on some of these ideas. ←

16:40:50 <markbirbeck> ... (That was response to Mark saying that we should get on and document some of our ideas on RDFa API.)

... (That was response to Mark saying that we should get on and document some of our ideas on RDFa API.) ←

16:40:52 <manu> +1

Unknown Manu_Sporny: +1 ←

16:41:16 <markbirbeck> ... If as Mark says, that RDFa is superior to Microdata, then we should be explaining this.

... If as Mark says, that RDFa is superior to Microdata, then we should be explaining this. ←

16:42:15 <ShaneM> pre-defined prefixes simplifies immediately

Unknown ShaneM: pre-defined prefixes simplifies immediately ←

16:42:18 <manu> ack manu

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ack manu ←

16:42:24 <markbirbeck> ... If someone doesn't want the full functionality of RDFa it should be clear how to use it.

... If someone doesn't want the full functionality of RDFa it should be clear how to use it. ←

16:43:12 <markbirbeck> Shane would like it minuted that he is paying attention.

Shane would like it minuted that he is paying attention. ←

16:43:49 <manu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0059.html

Unknown Manu_Sporny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2010Jan/0059.html ←

16:43:50 <markbirbeck> Topic: RDFa vocabs

3. Pre-loading prefixes

16:44:24 <markbirbeck> Sorry...was foolishly following previous minutes!

Sorry...was foolishly following previous minutes! ←

16:44:38 <ivan> q+

Unknown Ivan_Herman: q+ ←

16:44:54 <manu> s/RDFa vocabs/Pre-loading prefixes/g

16:44:58 <markbirbeck> Topic: RDFa prefix pre-loading

4. RDFa prefix pre-loading

16:45:18 <markbirbeck> Ivan: At a theoretical and technical level, these things are not totally unrelated.

Unknown Ivan_Herman: At a theoretical and technical level, these things are not totally unrelated. ←

16:45:44 <ShaneM> +1

Unknown ShaneM: +1 ←

16:45:54 <markbirbeck> ... They shouldn't need to be presented as being distinct.

... They shouldn't need to be presented as being distinct. ←

16:45:59 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me

zakim, unmute me ←

16:45:59 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck should no longer be muted ←

16:46:27 <manu> Mark: One of the things on the vocab front is this gradual rejection that follow-your-nose is everything.

Unknown Mark: One of the things on the vocab front is this gradual rejection that follow-your-nose is everything. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:46:57 <manu> Mark: The idea that everything must be able to be worked out on the fly by default - you need to support follow-your-nose

Unknown Mark: The idea that everything must be able to be worked out on the fly by default - you need to support follow-your-nose [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:47:15 <manu> Mark: But saying that stuff is predefined isn't necessarily a bad thing - we shouldn't be scared of doing that.

Unknown Mark: But saying that stuff is predefined isn't necessarily a bad thing - we shouldn't be scared of doing that. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:47:54 <manu> Mark: This is where Microdata and Microformats falls down - they don't have the follow-your-nose mechanism.

Unknown Mark: This is where Microdata and Microformats falls down - they don't have the follow-your-nose mechanism. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:47:59 <manu> Mark: RDFa does.

Unknown Mark: RDFa does. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:48:12 <manu> Mark: as long as you can ensure that the two co-exist, then why not pre-load prefixes?

Unknown Mark: as long as you can ensure that the two co-exist, then why not pre-load prefixes? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:48:42 <manu> Ivan: Then we largely agree, right?

Unknown Ivan_Herman: Then we largely agree, right? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:49:19 <manu> Mark: The downside to this follow-your-nose is that it is used as an argument against pre-defined vocabs.

Unknown Mark: The downside to this follow-your-nose is that it is used as an argument against pre-defined vocabs. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:49:43 <Steven> zakim, mute mark

Unknown Steven: zakim, mute mark ←

16:49:43 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck should now be muted ←

16:49:48 <manu> Ivan: Google uses the same mechanism... but it has been said all along that a  processor would cache a bunch of these namespaces.

Unknown Ivan_Herman: Google uses the same mechanism... but it has been said all along that a processor would cache a bunch of these namespaces. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:49:59 <manu> q+

Unknown Manu_Sporny: q+ ←

16:50:15 <manu> Ivan: caching is a fundamental part of the web.

Unknown Ivan_Herman: caching is a fundamental part of the web. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:50:21 <manu> ack manu

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ack manu ←

16:50:24 <markbirbeck> Ivan: Not disimilar to an editor caching DTDs.

Unknown Ivan_Herman: Not disimilar to an editor caching DTDs. ←

16:50:26 <ShaneM> I want to do this RIGHT NOW

Unknown ShaneM: I want to do this RIGHT NOW ←

16:51:17 <markbirbeck> Manu: But which vocabularies would we put into the spec? Which ones have longevity?

Unknown Manu_Sporny: But which vocabularies would we put into the spec? Which ones have longevity? ←

16:51:28 <markbirbeck> ... Top 20 from CC?

... Top 20 from prefixcc? ←

16:51:32 <markbirbeck> q+

q+ ←

16:51:40 <markbirbeck> s/CC/prefixcc/

16:51:40 <ivan> ack ivan

Unknown Ivan_Herman: ack ivan ←

16:51:55 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about the process for picking vocabs

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to talk about the process for picking vocabs ←

16:52:13 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me

zakim, unmute me ←

16:52:13 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck should no longer be muted ←

16:52:14 <manu> ack mark

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ack mark ←

16:52:31 <manu> Mark: I think we shouldn't be scared of doing this - not do this now.

Unknown Mark: I think we shouldn't be scared of doing this - not do this now. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:52:50 <manu> Mark: We should certainly think all of this stuff through... there isn't a principle that we shouldn't have to pre-define things.

Unknown Mark: We should certainly think all of this stuff through... there isn't a principle that we shouldn't have to pre-define things. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:53:08 <markbirbeck>   <html>

<html> ←

16:53:08 <markbirbeck>     <head profile="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/profile/2009">

<head profile="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/profile/2009"> ←

16:53:08 <markbirbeck>       ...

... ←

16:53:09 <markbirbeck>     </head>

</head> ←

16:53:09 <markbirbeck>     <body>

<body> ←

16:53:10 <markbirbeck>       <div typeof="Person">

<div typeof="Person"> ←

16:53:11 <markbirbeck>         <span property="name">John Smith</span>

<span property="name">John Smith</span> ←

16:53:13 <markbirbeck>         <span property="nickname">Smithy</span>

<span property="nickname">Smithy</span> ←

16:53:15 <markbirbeck>         <span property="url">http://www.example.com</span>

<span property="url">http://www.example.com</span> ←

16:53:17 <markbirbeck>         <span property="affiliation">ACME</span>

<span property="affiliation">ACME</span> ←

16:53:19 <markbirbeck>         <span rel="address">

<span rel="address"> ←

16:53:21 <markbirbeck>           <span property="locality">Albuquerque</span>

<span property="locality">Albuquerque</span> ←

16:53:23 <markbirbeck>         </span>

</span> ←

16:53:25 <markbirbeck>         <span property="title">Engineer</span>

<span property="title">Engineer</span> ←

16:53:27 <markbirbeck>         <a href="http://darryl-blog.example.com/" rel="friend">Darryl</a>

<a href="http://darryl-blog.example.com/" rel="friend">Darryl</a> ←

16:53:29 <markbirbeck>       </div>

</div> ←

16:53:31 <markbirbeck>     </body>

</body> ←

16:53:33 <markbirbeck>   </html>

</html> ←

16:54:18 <manu> Mark: This approach might be better - since it's encapsulated in a @profile attribute.

Unknown Mark: This approach might be better - since it's encapsulated in a @profile attribute. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:54:39 <manu> Mark: That is better than Microformats and it's scalable.

Unknown Mark: That is better than Microformats and it's scalable. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:54:49 <Steven> zakim, mute mark

Unknown Steven: zakim, mute mark ←

16:54:49 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck should now be muted ←

16:55:16 <manu> unmute, mark

Unknown Manu_Sporny: unmute, mark ←

16:55:16 <Steven> ack mark

Unknown Steven: ack mark ←

16:56:44 <manu> Mark: This would allow RDFa processors to understand the URL to mean something special.

Unknown Mark: This would allow RDFa processors to understand the URL to mean something special. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:57:17 <manu> Mark: It's a key to tell the authors that their data would be processed in a particular way.

Unknown Mark: It's a key to tell the authors that their data would be processed in a particular way. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:57:45 <ivan> zakim, mute mark

Unknown Ivan_Herman: zakim, mute mark ←

16:57:45 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck should now be muted ←

16:58:03 <manu> Mark: Maybe we should defer the pre-loaded prefixes until we can have this discussion

Unknown Mark: Maybe we should defer the pre-loaded prefixes until we can have this discussion [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Manu_Sporny ] ←

16:58:19 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

16:58:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu ←

16:58:22 <manu> q+

Unknown Manu_Sporny: q+ ←

16:58:24 <markbirbeck> Mark: Not intending to take the discussion in other direction, just trying to point out that there may be something even better than fixing prefix values.

Unknown Mark: Not intending to take the discussion in other direction, just trying to point out that there may be something even better than fixing prefix values. ←

16:58:28 <manu> ack ShaneM

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ack ShaneM ←

16:58:29 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about the process for picking vocabs

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to talk about the process for picking vocabs ←

16:59:08 <markbirbeck> Shane: But people forget to use @profile, or they don't have access to <head>, etc.

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Manu_Sporny Unknown Ivan_Herman Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: But people forget to use @profile, or they don't have access to <head>, etc. ←

16:59:10 <ivan> q+

Unknown Ivan_Herman: q+ ←

16:59:15 <manu> ack manu

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ack manu ←

16:59:30 <manu> +1 to Shane's comment

Unknown Manu_Sporny: +1 to Shane's comment ←

16:59:33 <markbirbeck> ... So having the ability to use "dc" or "foaf" without having to define it, would be very useful.

... So having the ability to use "dc" or "foaf" without having to define it, would be very useful. ←

16:59:43 <markbirbeck> ... Let's just do this now.

... Let's just do this now. ←

16:59:53 <ShaneM> rule one for picking prefixes.  vocabs defined by the W3C are predefined.

Unknown ShaneM: rule one for picking prefixes. vocabs defined by the W3C are predefined. ←

17:00:23 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

17:00:25 <markbirbeck> Bye everyone.

Bye everyone. ←

17:00:25 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←

17:00:29 <Zakim> -markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←

17:00:30 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

17:00:30 <Zakim> -manu

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu ←

17:00:31 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended ←

17:00:34 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, [IPcaller], +0208761aaaa, markbirbeck, Steven, ShaneM, manu

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Ivan, [IPcaller], +0208761aaaa, markbirbeck, Steven, ShaneM, manu ←

17:00:39 <manu> me Mark - I'll clean up the minutes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: me Mark - I'll clean up the minutes ←

17:00:47 <markbirbeck> Great...thanks Manu.

Great...thanks Manu. ←

17:00:48 <manu> zakim, draft minutes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, draft minutes ←

17:00:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', manu

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'draft minutes', manu ←

17:00:54 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

17:00:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu ←

17:01:06 <markbirbeck> Note that omitting @profile is a red herring.

Note that omitting @profile is a red herring. ←

17:01:17 <manu> how so?

Unknown Manu_Sporny: how so? ←

17:01:27 <markbirbeck> People raise it, and say that no-one ever used @profile in Microformats.

People raise it, and say that no-one ever used @profile in Microformats. ←

17:01:30 <markbirbeck> That's true.

That's true. ←

17:01:36 <manu> ahh, yes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: ahh, yes ←

17:01:38 <manu> I see your point

Unknown Manu_Sporny: I see your point ←

17:01:46 <markbirbeck> But in RDFa if you miss out all the namespaces you're scuppered anyway.

But in RDFa if you miss out all the namespaces you're scuppered anyway. ←

17:01:57 <manu> The reason they didn't use it was because it had no effect on processing.

Unknown Manu_Sporny: The reason they didn't use it was because it had no effect on processing. ←

17:02:00 <markbirbeck> So there's already a basic requirement on authors to add something.

So there's already a basic requirement on authors to add something. ←

17:02:05 <markbirbeck> Yes, exactly.

Yes, exactly. ←

17:02:33 <markbirbeck> But if you miss out the Google namespace in your RDFa, you won't get indexed properly.

But if you miss out the Google namespace in your RDFa, you won't get indexed properly. ←

17:02:40 <markbirbeck> Same in Yahoo!.

Same in Yahoo!. ←

17:03:03 <markbirbeck> So all we're saying is instead of adding 10 URIs, just add one.

So all we're saying is instead of adding 10 URIs, just add one. ←

17:03:04 <manu> The #seo people will definitely make a point of it

Unknown Manu_Sporny: The #seo people will definitely make a point of it ←

17:03:15 <markbirbeck> A point of getting it right?

A point of getting it right? ←

17:03:19 <manu> yes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: yes ←

17:03:23 <markbirbeck> Exactly.

Exactly. ←

17:03:38 <markbirbeck> Anyone interested in providing information for some consumer will want to get it right.

Anyone interested in providing information for some consumer will want to get it right. ←

17:03:55 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

17:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu ←

17:04:01 <ShaneM> but....

Unknown ShaneM: but.... ←

17:04:23 <manu> Present+ Shane_McCarron, Steven_Pemberton

Unknown Manu_Sporny: Present+ Shane_McCarron, Steven_Pemberton ←

17:04:24 <markbirbeck> Control over <head> is a fair point though.

Control over <head> is a fair point though. ←

17:04:29 <markbirbeck> Shane is right there.

Shane is right there. ←

17:04:31 <ShaneM> profile goes on the html element.  or the head.  I can never remember.  xmlns can go anywhere.  and we had a requirement that you need to be able to do this stuff anywhere.

Unknown ShaneM: profile goes on the html element. or the head. I can never remember. xmlns can go anywhere. and we had a requirement that you need to be able to do this stuff anywhere. ←

17:04:32 <manu> true

Unknown Manu_Sporny: true ←

17:04:36 <ShaneM> thanks

Unknown ShaneM: thanks ←

17:04:42 <markbirbeck> Yes, I agree with you there.

Yes, I agree with you there. ←

17:04:55 <markbirbeck> But we also discussed having <div profile="...">

But we also discussed having <div profile="..."> ←

17:05:05 <markbirbeck> That would be a nice feature anyway.

That would be a nice feature anyway. ←

17:05:30 <manu> scribenick+ manu

Unknown Manu_Sporny: scribenick+ manu ←

17:05:34 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown Manu_Sporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

17:05:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-minutes.html manu ←

17:29:56 <manu> rrsagent, bye

(No events recorded for 24 minutes)

Unknown Manu_Sporny: rrsagent, bye ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-actions.rdf : ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to create basic RDFa API document. [1]

ACTION: Manu to create basic RDFa API document. [1] ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T15-53-03

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T15-53-03 ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to test CORS support in latest browsers. [2]

ACTION: Manu to test CORS support in latest browsers. [2] ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T15-53-21

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T15-53-21 ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to contact Dan Brickley to discuss Microdata to RDFa mapping. [3]

ACTION: Manu to contact Dan Brickley to discuss Microdata to RDFa mapping. [3] ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-03-48

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-03-48 ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. [4]

ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. [4] ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-04

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-04 ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. [5]

ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC 142. [5] ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-30

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-30 ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix [6]

ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix [6] ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-41

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-06-41 ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents [7]

ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents [7] ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-07-01

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-07-01 ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM to identify the requirements for html2ps and see about getting reSpec to support them. [8]

ACTION: ShaneM to identify the requirements for html2ps and see about getting reSpec to support them. [8] ←

17:29:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-07-36

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-rdfa-irc#T16-07-36 ←

17:29:59 <manu> zakim, bye

Unknown Manu_Sporny: zakim, bye ←

Formatted by CommonScribe