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14:51:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-irc ←
14:51:07 <Ralph> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
14:51:15 <Ralph> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0018.html
14:51:45 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2009-03-19
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Unknown Ralph: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2009-03-19 ←
14:52:15 <Ralph> regrets+ Michael
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Unknown Ralph: regrets+ Michael ←
14:52:34 <Ralph> regrets+ Ben_Adida
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Unknown Ralph: regrets+ Ben_Adida ←
14:52:38 <Ralph> regrets+ Michael_Hausenblas
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Unknown Ralph: regrets+ Michael_Hausenblas ←
14:52:49 <Ralph> regrets- Michael
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Unknown Ralph: regrets- Michael ←
14:53:06 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
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Unknown Ralph: rrsagent, please make record public ←
15:01:19 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started ←
15:01:26 <Zakim> +Ralph
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph ←
15:02:14 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
15:02:25 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P27
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Unknown msporny: zakim, I am ??P27 ←
15:02:36 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +msporny; got it ←
15:04:43 <ShaneM> laptop has gone deeply insane - wokring on it
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Unknown ShaneM: laptop has gone deeply insane - wokring on it ←
15:05:49 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
15:06:31 <Ralph> chair: Manu
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15:06:34 <msporny> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html
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Unknown msporny: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html ←
15:06:51 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
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Unknown Ralph: [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←
15:06:57 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
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Unknown Ralph: [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in ACTION-03]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-03] ←
15:07:46 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in ACTION-15]">http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-15] ←
15:07:54 <Ralph> Manu: I've replied and asked twice for a response
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Unknown Manu: I've replied and asked twice for a response [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:08:11 <Ralph> ... I think they're accepting the response
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Unknown Ralph: ... I think they're accepting the response ←
15:08:16 <Ralph> ... so I think we can consider this done
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Unknown Ralph: ... so I think we can consider this done ←
15:08:20 <Ralph> --done
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Unknown Ralph: --done ←
15:08:26 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
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Unknown Ralph: [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in ACTION-09]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-09] ←
15:08:39 <Ralph> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←
15:08:53 <msporny> Mark, are you going to dial in soon? We're at your action items...
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Unknown msporny: Mark, are you going to dial in soon? We're at your action items... ←
15:09:13 <Ralph> i|http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html|Topic: Action Review
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Unknown Ralph: i|http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html|Topic: Action Review ←
15:09:21 <markbirbeck> I'm about to dial in.
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Unknown markbirbeck: I'm about to dial in. ←
15:09:29 <markbirbeck> However, I have no updates on my actions.
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Unknown markbirbeck: However, I have no updates on my actions. ←
15:09:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←
15:09:32 <Ralph> -- continues
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Unknown Ralph: -- continues ←
15:09:44 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
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Unknown Ralph: [DONE] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc] ←
15:09:54 <markbirbeck> Oh...other than that one. :)
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Unknown markbirbeck: Oh...other than that one. :) ←
15:10:15 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0000.html The implied @about="": Explanation and some problems [Mark Birbeck 2009-04-01]
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Unknown Ralph: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0000.html The implied @about="": Explanation and some problems [Mark Birbeck 2009-04-01] ←
15:10:22 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
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Unknown Ralph: [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←
15:10:25 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
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Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, code? ←
15:10:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck ←
15:10:26 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
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Unknown Ralph: [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] ←
15:10:32 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
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Unknown Ralph: [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in ACTION-14]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-14] ←
15:10:43 <Ralph> ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←
15:11:02 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
15:11:04 <Ralph> Ralph: I know Steven poked someone about this
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Unknown Ralph: I know Steven poked someone about this [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:11:08 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
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Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, i am ? ←
15:11:08 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it ←
15:11:09 <Ralph> -- continues
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Unknown Ralph: -- continues ←
15:11:13 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
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Unknown Ralph: [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in ACTION-15]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-15] ←
15:12:36 <Ralph> Topic: Report on AC Meeting
15:12:54 <Ralph> Manu: anyone there for the HTML discussions than Ben and Steven?
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Unknown Manu: anyone there for the HTML discussions than Ben and Steven? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:13:04 <Ralph> Shane: unfortunately Ben couldn't stay for the breakout session
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Unknown Shane: unfortunately Ben couldn't stay for the breakout session [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:13:18 <Ralph> Mark: the minutes suggest the discussion was quite positive
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Unknown Mark: the minutes suggest the discussion was quite positive [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:14:02 <Ralph> Ralph: I needed to participate in a different breakout
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Unknown Ralph: I needed to participate in a different breakout [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:14:14 <Ralph> Mark: I'm looking at the minutes of the Backplane XG
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Unknown Mark: I'm looking at the minutes of the Backplane XG [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:15:39 <Ralph> Shane: there appears to be substantial support from the Membership for the extensibility model that XHTML has always had
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Unknown Shane: there appears to be substantial support from the Membership for the extensibility model that XHTML has always had [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:16:45 <Ralph> Topic: @prefix syntax discussion
15:17:10 <Ralph> Manu: at our last discussion, Shane and Ralph were favoring the '=' syntax and Mark and I were favoring the JSON-esque syntax
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Unknown Manu: at our last discussion, Shane and Ralph were favoring the '=' syntax and Mark and I were favoring the JSON-esque syntax [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:17:29 <Ralph> ... any new thoughts in the subsequent 2 weeks?
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Unknown Ralph: ... any new thoughts in the subsequent 2 weeks? ←
15:18:16 <Ralph> Mark: I'm involved in a couple of projects where folk are producing what they think is RDFa
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Unknown Mark: I'm involved in a couple of projects where folk are producing what they think is RDFa [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:19:09 <Ralph> ... it's interesting; I see a growing need for tools to check the work
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Unknown Ralph: ... it's interesting; I see a growing need for tools to check the work ←
15:19:18 <Zakim> -ShaneM
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Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
15:20:28 <Ralph> ... simply typos like mismatch between namespace declaration and usage
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Unknown Ralph: ... simply typos like mismatch between namespace declaration and usage ←
15:20:48 <Zakim> +??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←
15:21:51 <Ralph> Ralph: no real additional thoughts but I did make note of Mark's concerns about the pattern @attr="prefix=value"
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Unknown Ralph: no real additional thoughts but I did make note of Mark's concerns about the pattern @attr="prefix=value" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:22:03 <Ralph> ... but if tools are generating this anyway, how much does it matter?
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Unknown Ralph: ... but if tools are generating this anyway, how much does it matter? ←
15:22:16 <Ralph> Mark: I'm thinking of checking tools more than generation tools
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Unknown Mark: I'm thinking of checking tools more than generation tools [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:22:39 <Ralph> Manu: definitely think embedded '=' will cause confusion
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Unknown Manu: definitely think embedded '=' will cause confusion [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:22:55 <Ralph> ... and people will put whitespace around the '='
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Unknown Ralph: ... and people will put whitespace around the '=' ←
15:23:05 <Ralph> ... so we need resilient syntaxes and parsers
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Unknown Ralph: ... so we need resilient syntaxes and parsers ←
15:23:36 <Ralph> Shane: I don't think it's terribly important to have delimiters other than whitespace between the items
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Unknown Shane: I don't think it's terribly important to have delimiters other than whitespace between the items [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:23:45 <Ralph> ... but I won't fight on that
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Unknown Ralph: ... but I won't fight on that ←
15:23:56 <Ralph> ... I understand the sensitivity to the repeated '=' issue
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Unknown Ralph: ... I understand the sensitivity to the repeated '=' issue ←
15:24:00 <Ralph> ... do you prefer ':'?
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Unknown Ralph: ... do you prefer ':'? ←
15:24:01 <Ralph> Manu: yes
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Unknown Manu: yes [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:24:17 <Ralph> Shane: that's probably fine, but then you end up with repeated ':'
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Unknown Shane: that's probably fine, but then you end up with repeated ':' [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:24:26 <ShaneM> perfix="xhv:http:..."
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Unknown ShaneM: perfix="xhv:http:..." ←
15:25:03 <Ralph> Shane: I leaned toward repeated '=' in the first place because that made it clear which was the prefix and which was the rest
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Unknown Shane: I leaned toward repeated '=' in the first place because that made it clear which was the prefix and which was the rest [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:25:07 <markbirbeck> prefix="xhv:xyz dc:xyz"
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix="xhv:xyz dc:xyz" ←
15:25:13 <markbirbeck> prefix="xhv=xyz dc=xyz"
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix="xhv=xyz dc=xyz" ←
15:25:25 <Ralph> Mark: we're tending to discuss as if ^ were the patterns
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Unknown Mark: we're tending to discuss as if ^ were the patterns [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:25:43 <Ralph> ... this is how @xml:schemalocation works
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Unknown Ralph: ... this is how @xml:schemalocation works ←
15:25:44 <markbirbeck> prefix="
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix=" ←
15:25:45 <markbirbeck> xhv: xyz,
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Unknown markbirbeck: xhv: xyz, ←
15:25:45 <markbirbeck> dc: xyz
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Unknown markbirbeck: dc: xyz ←
15:25:45 <markbirbeck> "
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Unknown markbirbeck: " ←
15:26:02 <Ralph> Mark: I'm thinking we should really be looking at layout such as ^
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Unknown Mark: I'm thinking we should really be looking at layout such as ^ [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:26:16 <Ralph> ... in this case, additional delimiters are useful; we don't need to be compact
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Unknown Ralph: ... in this case, additional delimiters are useful; we don't need to be compact ←
15:26:37 <Ralph> ... we should consider not just a syntax but also examples that people will cut & paste
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Unknown Ralph: ... we should consider not just a syntax but also examples that people will cut & paste ←
15:27:15 <Ralph> ... if I were to copy one of Manu's audio prefix examples I could select a single line (of many declarations) and insert it into my list without introducing error
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Unknown Ralph: ... if I were to copy one of Manu's audio prefix examples I could select a single line (of many declarations) and insert it into my list without introducing error ←
15:27:26 <Ralph> ... once you spread things out like this, why not allow further flexibility
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Unknown Ralph: ... once you spread things out like this, why not allow further flexibility ←
15:27:27 <markbirbeck> prefix="
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix=" ←
15:27:27 <markbirbeck> "xhv": 'xy z',
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Unknown markbirbeck: "xhv": 'xy z', ←
15:27:27 <markbirbeck> dc: xyz
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15:27:28 <markbirbeck> "
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Unknown markbirbeck: " ←
15:27:42 <markbirbeck> prefix="
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix=" ←
15:27:43 <markbirbeck> 'xhv': 'xy z',
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Unknown markbirbeck: 'xhv': 'xy z', ←
15:27:43 <markbirbeck> dc: xyz
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Unknown markbirbeck: dc: xyz ←
15:27:43 <markbirbeck> "
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Unknown markbirbeck: " ←
15:28:12 <Ralph> Shane: my concern is that URIs allow these characters, so the syntax rules and the parsing are both more challenging
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Unknown Shane: my concern is that URIs allow these characters, so the syntax rules and the parsing are both more challenging [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:28:24 <Ralph> Mark: yes, but there are extra options for delimiting
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Unknown Mark: yes, but there are extra options for delimiting [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:28:49 <Ralph> ... if we say we're allowing quotes _as well_ this gives additional flexibility
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Unknown Ralph: ... if we say we're allowing quotes _as well_ this gives additional flexibility ←
15:28:50 <markbirbeck> prefix="
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix=" ←
15:28:50 <markbirbeck> 'xhv': 'xy z,',
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Unknown markbirbeck: 'xhv': 'xy z,', ←
15:28:51 <markbirbeck> dc: xyz
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Unknown markbirbeck: dc: xyz ←
15:28:51 <markbirbeck> "
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Unknown markbirbeck: " ←
15:29:17 <Ralph> Mark: if you did have a URI that ends in ',' then quoting allows an easy way to include it
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Unknown Mark: if you did have a URI that ends in ',' then quoting allows an easy way to include it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:29:45 <Ralph> ... ':' in @xmlns was really an effort to find one thing that would work
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Unknown Ralph: ... ':' in @xmlns was really an effort to find one thing that would work ←
15:30:00 <Ralph> ... but we have greater flexibility
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Unknown Ralph: ... but we have greater flexibility ←
15:30:24 <Ralph> Manu: when people mint prefix mapping URIs I find it highly unlikely that they'll use a ',' in such a URI
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Unknown Manu: when people mint prefix mapping URIs I find it highly unlikely that they'll use a ',' in such a URI [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:30:57 <Ralph> ... yes, it _could_ happen but if it's a well-known design consideration that such characters cause trouble then vocabulary developers can avoid them
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Unknown Ralph: ... yes, it _could_ happen but if it's a well-known design consideration that such characters cause trouble then vocabulary developers can avoid them ←
15:30:57 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about embedding commas
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Unknown ShaneM: q+ to talk about embedding commas ←
15:31:05 <Ralph> Mark: what is the added complexity?
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Unknown Mark: what is the added complexity? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:31:21 <Ralph> Manu: it's additional complexity in the parser. I'm questioning whether we really need it.
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Unknown Manu: it's additional complexity in the parser. I'm questioning whether we really need it. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:31:28 <Ralph> Mark: it's one regular expression
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Unknown Mark: it's one regular expression [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:31:51 <Ralph> ... a way of trying to introduce resilience and something that [humans] can grok easily
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Unknown Ralph: ... a way of trying to introduce resilience and something that [humans] can grok easily ←
15:32:09 <Ralph> ... we come back to this problem of recognizing what is a URI
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Unknown Ralph: ... we come back to this problem of recognizing what is a URI ←
15:32:36 <Ralph> ... I'm just thinking of ways to provide resilience when needed without mandating it all the time
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Unknown Ralph: ... I'm just thinking of ways to provide resilience when needed without mandating it all the time ←
15:32:44 <markbirbeck> prefix="
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix=" ←
15:32:45 <markbirbeck> xhv: {xy z,},
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Unknown markbirbeck: xhv: {xy z,}, ←
15:32:45 <markbirbeck> dc: xyz
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Unknown markbirbeck: dc: xyz ←
15:32:45 <markbirbeck> "
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Unknown markbirbeck: " ←
15:33:04 <Ralph> Manu: I'd like to see the regex
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Unknown Manu: I'd like to see the regex [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:33:32 <Ralph> ... my C+sax-based parser doesn't have to use regex's anywhere right now
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Unknown Ralph: ... my C+sax-based parser doesn't have to use regex's anywhere right now ←
15:33:46 <Ralph> Mark: a space-separated list needs to be cracked into a list
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Unknown Mark: a space-separated list needs to be cracked into a list [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:33:54 <Ralph> ... even '=' can appear in a URI
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Unknown Ralph: ... even '=' can appear in a URI ←
15:33:55 <ShaneM> index
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Unknown ShaneM: index ←
15:34:06 <Ralph> index()
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Unknown Ralph: index() ←
15:34:07 <Ralph> :)
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Unknown Ralph: :) ←
15:34:28 <Ralph> Manu: I don't think we can count on authors writing examples consistently
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Unknown Manu: I don't think we can count on authors writing examples consistently [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:34:39 <Ralph> ... and a mixture of styles will cause confusion
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Unknown Ralph: ... and a mixture of styles will cause confusion ←
15:35:00 <Ralph> Mark: I'm proposing the _possibility_ of permitting this richer format, not _requiring_ it
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Unknown Mark: I'm proposing the _possibility_ of permitting this richer format, not _requiring_ it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:35:46 <Ralph> Manu: I was only questioning whether example authors will really write the examples with multi-line declarations
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Unknown Manu: I was only questioning whether example authors will really write the examples with multi-line declarations [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:35:52 <markbirbeck> prefix="xhv: xy, dc: xyz"
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix="xhv: xy, dc: xyz" ←
15:36:08 <Ralph> ... when the examples are written on a single line the richer syntax becomes confusing
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Unknown Ralph: ... when the examples are written on a single line the richer syntax becomes confusing ←
15:36:29 <Ralph> Mark: consider space-separated lists
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Unknown Mark: consider space-separated lists [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:36:30 <markbirbeck> prefix="xhv:xy dc:xyz"
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix="xhv:xy dc:xyz" ←
15:36:41 <Ralph> ... then you can't have space around ':'
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Unknown Ralph: ... then you can't have space around ':' ←
15:36:53 <Ralph> ... the options for authors laying out the markup are limited
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Unknown Ralph: ... the options for authors laying out the markup are limited ←
15:37:31 <Ralph> ... no flexibility for aligning things [in columns]
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Unknown Ralph: ... no flexibility for aligning things [in columns] ←
15:38:12 <Ralph> ... whereas the XML attribute syntax has a lot of flexibility, for example; can use whitespace to nudge things [into columns]
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Unknown Ralph: ... whereas the XML attribute syntax has a lot of flexibility, for example; can use whitespace to nudge things [into columns] ←
15:38:40 <Ralph> ... in terms of consistency, generally in XML spaces are ignored
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Unknown Ralph: ... in terms of consistency, generally in XML spaces are ignored ←
15:39:03 <Ralph> ... other than the use in XML Schema to create lists, whitespace is not significant
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Unknown Ralph: ... other than the use in XML Schema to create lists, whitespace is not significant ←
15:39:20 <Ralph> Shane: whitespace is collapsed, not ignored
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Unknown Shane: whitespace is collapsed, not ignored [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:39:25 <Ralph> ... this includes newlines
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Unknown Ralph: ... this includes newlines ←
15:39:37 <Ralph> ... collapsing inside attributes values
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Unknown Ralph: ... collapsing inside attributes values ←
15:39:49 <Ralph> ... however, this is bad; in the HTML DOM whitespace is not collapsed
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Unknown Ralph: ... however, this is bad; in the HTML DOM whitespace is not collapsed ←
15:40:12 <Ralph> ... this means a parser that has to work with both XML and HTML has to be written to expect multiple whitespace
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Unknown Ralph: ... this means a parser that has to work with both XML and HTML has to be written to expect multiple whitespace ←
15:40:34 <Ralph> Mark; but the presence of whitespace is geenerally not significant
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Unknown Mark: but the presence of whitespace is geenerally not significant [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:40:39 <Ralph> s/;/:
15:40:53 <Ralph> ... as long as there is whitespace in key places, such as between attributes
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Unknown Ralph: ... as long as there is whitespace in key places, such as between attributes ←
15:41:13 <Ralph> ... '=' vs. ':' is a separate discussion from whether whitespace is a delimiter
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Unknown Ralph: ... '=' vs. ':' is a separate discussion from whether whitespace is a delimiter ←
15:41:28 <Ralph> Manu: I agree; we shouldn't decide solely on whitespace
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Unknown Manu: I agree; we shouldn't decide solely on whitespace [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:41:41 <msporny> prefix="xhv:xy, dc:xyz" prefix="xhv:xy; dc:xyz"
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Unknown msporny: prefix="xhv:xy, dc:xyz" prefix="xhv:xy; dc:xyz" ←
15:41:55 <Ralph> ... for delimiters between mappings, we're considering something like ^
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Unknown Ralph: ... for delimiters between mappings, we're considering something like ^ ←
15:42:17 <Ralph> Shane: a lot of our canonical examples are ones that contain ','; e.g. Wikipedia or Amazon
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Unknown Shane: a lot of our canonical examples are ones that contain ','; e.g. Wikipedia or Amazon [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:42:29 <Ralph> ... places where, for example, an ISBN might be interpolated
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Unknown Ralph: ... places where, for example, an ISBN might be interpolated ←
15:42:45 <msporny> prefix="media: http://purl.org/media#, audio: http://purl.org/media/audio#"
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Unknown msporny: prefix="media: http://purl.org/media#, audio: http://purl.org/media/audio#" ←
15:42:53 <Ralph> Mark: yeah, can't quickly come up with an example
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Unknown Mark: yeah, can't quickly come up with an example [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:43:02 <markbirbeck> mapping, mapping, mapping
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Unknown markbirbeck: mapping, mapping, mapping ←
15:43:12 <Ralph> Mark: should treat as ^
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Unknown Mark: should treat as ^ [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:43:22 <Ralph> ... then decide what goes inside 'mapping'
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Unknown Ralph: ... then decide what goes inside 'mapping' ←
15:43:32 <msporny> prefix="media: http://purl.org/media# ; audio : http://purl.org/media/audio#"
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Unknown msporny: prefix="media: http://purl.org/media# ; audio : http://purl.org/media/audio#" ←
15:43:41 <Ralph> Shane: can't just be 'ends in ,' -- must be 'includes ,'
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Unknown Shane: can't just be 'ends in ,' -- must be 'includes ,' [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:44:18 <Ralph> Manu: are Shane and Ralph ok with using ',' between mappings?
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Unknown Manu: are Shane and Ralph ok with using ',' between mappings? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:44:30 <Ralph> Shane: if we're going to use ',' or ';' we need to define the escaping mechanism
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Unknown Shane: if we're going to use ',' or ';' we need to define the escaping mechanism [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:44:41 <Ralph> ... maybe there's already a mechanism defined somewhere
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Unknown Ralph: ... maybe there's already a mechanism defined somewhere ←
15:45:01 <Ralph> ... my preferred syntax is identical to schemalocation but Ralph says that's a non-starter
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Unknown Ralph: ... my preferred syntax is identical to schemalocation but Ralph says that's a non-starter ←
15:45:15 <Ralph> Manu: ok to pick a character that must be URI-encoded in URIs?
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Unknown Manu: ok to pick a character that must be URI-encoded in URIs? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:45:37 <msporny> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent-encoding
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Unknown msporny: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent-encoding ←
15:45:42 <Ralph> Mark: every time I look at the URI spec I find it allows more characters than I expected
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Unknown Mark: every time I look at the URI spec I find it allows more characters than I expected [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:46:08 <Ralph> ... this discussion is pretty much the same discussion the @xmlns folk had to go through
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Unknown Ralph: ... this discussion is pretty much the same discussion the @xmlns folk had to go through ←
15:47:07 <Ralph> Manu: we could require that reserved characters must be %-encoded
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Unknown Manu: we could require that reserved characters must be %-encoded [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:47:18 <Ralph> ... but that makes everything harder
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Unknown Ralph: ... but that makes everything harder ←
15:47:27 <Ralph> Mark: and we'd have to avoid a requirement to double-encode
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Unknown Mark: and we'd have to avoid a requirement to double-encode [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:47:36 <Ralph> ... we need a non-reserved character
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Unknown Ralph: ... we need a non-reserved character ←
15:47:39 <Ralph> Shane: good luck with that!
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Unknown Shane: good luck with that! [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:47:48 <Ralph> ... remember that in the case of CURIE it's a IRI
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Unknown Ralph: ... remember that in the case of CURIE it's a IRI ←
15:47:57 <Ralph> ... so even a bigger set of non-reserved character
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Unknown Ralph: ... so even a bigger set of non-reserved character ←
15:48:14 <Ralph> ... the only reserved character is space
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Unknown Ralph: ... the only reserved character is space ←
15:48:37 <Ralph> ... even schemalocation cheated by not using '=' or ':'; they just use alternation
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Unknown Ralph: ... even schemalocation cheated by not using '=' or ':'; they just use alternation ←
15:48:56 <Ralph> ... the problem with alternation is that we can't do anything clever with default or absent prefixes
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Unknown Ralph: ... the problem with alternation is that we can't do anything clever with default or absent prefixes ←
15:49:12 <Ralph> ... but maybe we don't need such rules
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Unknown Ralph: ... but maybe we don't need such rules ←
15:49:29 <msporny> prefix="a=b x=y"
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Unknown msporny: prefix="a=b x=y" ←
15:50:39 <ShaneM> wow.... we already have this problem!
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Unknown ShaneM: wow.... we already have this problem! ←
15:50:42 <Ralph> Mark: if we needed @prefix on every element then perhaps we might go with [the '=' syntax]
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Unknown Mark: if we needed @prefix on every element then perhaps we might go with [the '=' syntax] [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:50:52 <ShaneM> xmlns:foo="URI" what happens if URI contains a quotation mark?
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Unknown xmlns: foo="URI" what happens if URI contains a quotation mark? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown ShaneM ] ←
15:50:53 <Ralph> ... but perhaps we don't need that flexibility; be more restrictive
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Unknown Ralph: ... but perhaps we don't need that flexibility; be more restrictive ←
15:51:16 <Ralph> ... put everything in the head or having a predicate indicating a prefix mapping
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Unknown Ralph: ... put everything in the head or having a predicate indicating a prefix mapping ←
15:51:31 <Ralph> Ralhp: predicate as in RDF predicate?
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Unknown Ralhp: predicate as in RDF predicate? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:51:33 <Ralph> Mark: yes
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Unknown Mark: yes [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:51:41 <ShaneM> <meta rel="prefix" name="foo" resource="URI" />
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Unknown ShaneM: <meta rel="prefix" name="foo" resource="URI" /> ←
15:51:57 <Ralph> ... however I didn't like that syntax as it puts meta information in the same graph as 'ordinary' information, which feels wrong
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Unknown Ralph: ... however I didn't like that syntax as it puts meta information in the same graph as 'ordinary' information, which feels wrong ←
15:52:22 <Ralph> ... I'm looking for something that is "cut-and-paste reliable"
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Unknown Ralph: ... I'm looking for something that is "cut-and-paste reliable" ←
15:53:05 <Ralph> Ralph: Creative Commons would not accept restrictions on where mappings can be declared
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Unknown Ralph: Creative Commons would not accept restrictions on where mappings can be declared [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:53:57 <Ralph> Shane: separate two issues; 1. can we provide an alternative to @xmlns that would be acceptable beyond the XML community and 2. how do we make it easier for our constituents to use RDFa in ways @@
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Unknown Shane: separate two issues; 1. can we provide an alternative to @xmlns that would be acceptable beyond the XML community and 2. how do we make it easier for our constituents to use RDFa in easier ways [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:54:36 <Ralph> s/ways @@/easier ways
15:54:49 <Ralph> ... we've talked about having external documents that declare prefixes
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Unknown Ralph: ... we've talked about having external documents that declare prefixes ←
15:55:13 <Ralph> ... perhaps even with some well-known prefix declarations
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Unknown Ralph: ... perhaps even with some well-known prefix declarations ←
15:55:34 <Ralph> ... maybe we'll make more progress by not trying to find a single solution to these two objectives
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Unknown Ralph: ... maybe we'll make more progress by not trying to find a single solution to these two objectives ←
15:55:44 <Ralph> Mark: so do we need a lot of flexibility?
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Unknown Mark: so do we need a lot of flexibility? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:55:55 <Ralph> ... find just enough flexibility for the goals at hand
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Unknown Ralph: ... find just enough flexibility for the goals at hand ←
15:56:12 <ShaneM> We should try hard to NOT over-engineer this solution without having the requirements in mind!
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Unknown ShaneM: We should try hard to NOT over-engineer this solution without having the requirements in mind! ←
15:56:17 <Ralph> Manu: the second idea is that there's an @profile value that pulls in external mapping declarations
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Unknown Manu: the second idea is that there's an @profile value that pulls in external mapping declarations [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:56:48 <Ralph> Mark: 1 is the namespace thing and 2 is ease of authoring
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Unknown Mark: 1 is the namespace thing and 2 is ease of authoring [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:57:35 <Ralph> Shane: consider CSS syntax as an example of going too far; e.g. borders on table cells -- totally different behavior depending on how many values are supplied
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Unknown Shane: consider CSS syntax as an example of going too far; e.g. borders on table cells -- totally different behavior depending on how many values are supplied [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:57:45 <markbirbeck> dc: url(xyz)
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Unknown dc: url(xyz) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown markbirbeck ] ←
15:57:49 <Ralph> Mark: I've just thought of another syntax!
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Unknown Mark: I've just thought of another syntax! [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:58:43 <Ralph> Ralph: and it may be that the @xmlns problem will go away
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Unknown Ralph: and it may be that the @xmlns problem will go away [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
15:58:55 <markbirbeck> Continuing Shane's point, why not 'solve' this:
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Unknown markbirbeck: Continuing Shane's point, why not 'solve' this: ←
15:58:57 <markbirbeck> http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CcREL
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Unknown markbirbeck: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CcREL ←
16:00:19 <Ralph> Mark: pick an example of something people will frequently want to copy and paste; e.g. ccRel
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Unknown Mark: pick an example of something people will frequently want to copy and paste; e.g. ccRel [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
16:00:30 <Ralph> ... the simple example [in ccRel] is interesting
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Unknown Ralph: ... the simple example [in ccRel] is interesting ←
16:00:51 <Ralph> ... it just says some other mechanism has defined the token
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Unknown Ralph: ... it just says some other mechanism has defined the token ←
16:01:41 <Ralph> ... consider the lengthier scenarios; what other ways are there to address these?
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Unknown Ralph: ... consider the lengthier scenarios; what other ways are there to address these? ←
16:01:57 <Ralph> Manu: any of our proposed syntaxes would handle these examples fairly cleanly
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Unknown Manu: any of our proposed syntaxes would handle these examples fairly cleanly [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
16:02:22 <msporny> prefix="a = b x = y"
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Unknown msporny: prefix="a = b x = y" ←
16:02:24 <Ralph> Ralph: yeah, it's the ugly corner cases like ',' in URIs that are a problem
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Unknown Ralph: yeah, it's the ugly corner cases like ',' in URIs that are a problem [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
16:02:29 <msporny> prefix="a=b x=y"
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Unknown msporny: prefix="a=b x=y" ←
16:02:35 <Ralph> Shane: even quote is already an issue
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Unknown Shane: even quote is already an issue [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
16:02:55 <Ralph> Manu: a simple state machine will handle the '=' syntax
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Unknown Manu: a simple state machine will handle the '=' syntax [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
16:03:22 <ShaneM> prefix="
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Unknown ShaneM: prefix=" ←
16:03:22 <ShaneM> a = b
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Unknown ShaneM: a = b ←
16:03:22 <ShaneM> x = y
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Unknown ShaneM: x = y ←
16:03:22 <ShaneM> "
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Unknown ShaneM: " ←
16:03:23 <Ralph> ... I see the argument for an extensible syntax that could support every use case but I wonder if [that flexiblity] will ever be used
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Unknown Ralph: ... I see the argument for an extensible syntax that could support every use case but I wonder if [that flexiblity] will ever be used ←
16:03:38 <Ralph> ... we're trying to solve a very simple problem
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Unknown Ralph: ... we're trying to solve a very simple problem ←
16:04:01 <Ralph> Shane: Mark's desire to make this legible can easily be written using the '=' syntax
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Unknown Shane: Mark's desire to make this legible can easily be written using the '=' syntax [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
16:04:07 <markbirbeck> Shane don't we do this: xmlns:a=""b""
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Unknown markbirbeck: Shane don't we do this: xmlns:a=""b"" ←
16:04:08 <Ralph> ... we can easily deal with extra whitespace
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Unknown Ralph: ... we can easily deal with extra whitespace ←
16:04:28 <markbirbeck> a = http://example.org?a=b
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Unknown markbirbeck: a = http://example.org?a=b ←
16:04:46 <ShaneM> (.*")\s*=\s*(.*?)\s+
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Unknown ShaneM: (.*")\s*=\s*(.*?)\s+ ←
16:05:05 <markbirbeck> prefix="a = http://example.org?a=b&c=d"
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Unknown markbirbeck: prefix="a = http://example.org?a=b&c=d" ←
16:07:11 <Ralph> Manu: I'm leaning toward preferring this solution
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Unknown Manu: I'm leaning toward preferring this solution [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←
16:07:17 <Ralph> ... straightforward and easy to implement
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Unknown Ralph: ... straightforward and easy to implement ←
16:07:25 <ShaneM> actually - can't use \s... need [\s\r\n]
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Unknown ShaneM: actually - can't use \s... need [\s\r\n] ←
16:07:32 <Ralph> ... don't think there's much danger of authors confusing the syntax in the markup
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Unknown Ralph: ... don't think there's much danger of authors confusing the syntax in the markup ←
16:08:05 <Zakim> -msporny
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Zakim IRC Bot: -msporny ←
16:08:06 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
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Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←
16:08:09 <Ralph> next meeting: 2 weeks (April 16)
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Unknown Ralph: next meeting: 2 weeks (April 16) ←
16:08:11 <Ralph> [adjourned]
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Unknown Ralph: [adjourned] ←
16:08:21 <ShaneM> (.*)[\s\r\n]*=[\s\r\n]*(.*?)[\s\r\n]+
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Unknown ShaneM: (.*)[\s\r\n]*=[\s\r\n]*(.*?)[\s\r\n]+ ←
16:08:25 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
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Unknown Ralph: rrsagent, please draft minutes ←
16:08:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←
16:10:08 <Zakim> -Ralph
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Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph ←
16:10:10 <Zakim> -??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P0 ←
16:10:11 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended ←
16:10:13 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, msporny, ShaneM, markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Ralph, msporny, ShaneM, markbirbeck ←
16:10:26 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
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Unknown Ralph: rrsagent, please draft minutes ←
16:10:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←
16:14:21 <Ralph> zakim, bye
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Unknown Ralph: zakim, bye ←
16:14:23 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
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Unknown Ralph: rrsagent, bye ←
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-actions.rdf : ←
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [1]
ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in ACTION-15]">http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-15] [1] ←
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-irc#T15-07-46
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-irc#T15-07-46 ←
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [2]
ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] [2] ←
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-irc#T15-08-39
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-irc#T15-08-39 ←
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [3]
ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] [3] ←
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-irc#T15-10-43
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/02-rdfa-irc#T15-10-43 ←
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