Meeting Record

edit

RDF in XHTML Task Force

Minutes of 19 February 2009

Agenda

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0178.html

Seen

Unknown Ben_Adida, Unknown Ralph, Unknown ShaneM, Unknown TomB, Unknown benadida, Unknown markbirbeck, Unknown msporny

Chair

Unknown Ben_Adida

Scribe

Unknown Manu_Sporny, Unknown msporny, Unknown ralph, Unknown Ralph

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

None.

Topics

Action Review
@prefix, specifically @prefix on HEAD

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15:52:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-irc ←

15:52:56 <Ralph> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

15:53:10 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0178.html

15:53:44 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-rdfa-minutes.html previous non-meeting

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ralph: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-rdfa-minutes.html previous non-meeting ←

15:53:56 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-01-22

Unknown Ralph: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2009-01-22 ←

15:54:01 <Ralph> s/2008/2009

15:54:17 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public

Unknown Ralph: rrsagent, please make record public ←

15:54:22 <Ralph> zakim, this will be rdfa

Unknown Ralph: zakim, this will be rdfa ←

15:54:22 <Zakim> ok, Ralph; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Ralph; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes ←

15:59:23 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started ←

15:59:31 <Zakim> +??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31 ←

15:59:37 <msporny> Zakim, I am ??P31

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Unknown msporny: Zakim, I am ??P31 ←

15:59:37 <Zakim> +msporny; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +msporny; got it ←

15:59:45 <msporny> Morning, Ralph :)

Unknown msporny: Morning, Ralph :) ←

16:01:33 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown msporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

16:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html msporny ←

16:02:02 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public

Unknown msporny: rrsagent, make log public ←

16:02:29 <msporny> yipes...

Unknown msporny: yipes... ←

16:02:34 <Zakim> +??P49

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P49 ←

16:02:46 <ShaneM> zakim, ??P49 is ShaneM

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ShaneM: zakim, ??P49 is ShaneM ←

16:02:46 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←

16:02:55 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu_Sporny' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(Scribe set to Unknown Manu_Sporny)

16:03:05 <msporny> ScribeNick: msporny

(Scribe set to Unknown msporny)

16:03:16 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force

16:03:28 <msporny> Chair: Ben_Adida

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben_Adida' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

16:03:39 <Zakim> +Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph ←

16:04:10 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ben_Adida ←

16:04:31 <Ralph> scribenick: ralph

Scribe problem: the name 'ralph' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(Scribe set to Unknown ralph)

16:05:06 <Ralph> scribe: Ralph

(Scribe set to Unknown Ralph)

16:05:27 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?

zakim, who's on the call? ←

16:05:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see msporny, ShaneM, Ralph, Ben_Adida

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see msporny, ShaneM, Ralph, Ben_Adida ←

16:07:32 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu to create design tests for @prefix and @profile. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]

[DONE] ACTION: Manu to create design tests for @prefix and @profile. [recorded in ACTION-16]">http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-16] ←

16:07:40 <Ralph> Topic: Action Review

1. Action Review

16:07:42 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0180.html

Unknown msporny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0180.html ←

16:07:57 <Ralph> Manu: see my mail

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Manu: see my mail ←

16:08:17 <Ralph> ... I showed a first pass of three styles of markup

... I showed a first pass of three styles of markup ←

16:09:09 <Ralph> [DROPPED] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

[DROPPED] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←

16:09:25 <Ralph> Ben: I did a reorganization of the wiki then Manu added way more than this action require

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ben: I did a reorganization of the wiki then Manu added way more than this action require ←

16:09:27 <Ralph> d

d ←

16:09:36 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←

16:10:04 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

16:10:34 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in ACTION-03]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-03] ←

16:10:37 <Ralph> Ralph: drop this?

Unknown Ralph: drop this? ←

16:10:48 <Ralph> Ben: I'd like to ping Jeremy; I'd like to see this

Unknown Ben: I'd like to ping Jeremy; I'd like to see this ←

16:11:01 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set object based on TC 123. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set object based on TC 123. [recorded in ACTION-14]">http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-14] ←

16:11:11 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html [recorded in ACTION-15]">http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-15] ←

16:11:29 <Ralph> Manu: I sent an email, no response yet

Unknown Manu: I sent an email, no response yet ←

16:11:36 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←

16:11:44 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in ACTION-09]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-09] ←

16:11:47 <TomB> zakim, ??p4 is TomB

Scribe problem: the name 'TomB' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown TomB: zakim, ??p4 is TomB ←

16:11:47 <Zakim> +TomB; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomB; got it ←

16:12:02 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←

16:12:06 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc] ←

16:12:14 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←

16:12:18 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] ←

16:12:36 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in ACTION-14]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-14] ←

16:12:40 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in ACTION-15]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-15] ←

16:13:19 <Ralph> Topic: @prefix, specifically @prefix on HEAD

2. @prefix, specifically @prefix on HEAD

16:13:28 <Ralph> Ben: I'd like to talk about this in concert with the test cases

Unknown Ben: I'd like to talk about this in concert with the test cases ←

16:14:00 <Ralph> [[

[[ ←

16:14:01 <Ralph> I see from the discussion on January 22 that there was talk of allowing

I see from the discussion on January 22 that there was talk of allowing ←

16:14:01 <Ralph> @prefix on HEAD to apply to the BODY, but I think we had clearly said in

@prefix on HEAD to apply to the BODY, but I think we had clearly said in ←

16:14:01 <Ralph> prior discussions that this shouldn't happen, because of the SAX-based

prior discussions that this shouldn't happen, because of the SAX-based ←

16:14:01 <Ralph> processing of documents. We need to clarify this.

processing of documents. We need to clarify this. ←

16:14:02 <Ralph> ]]

]] ←

16:14:12 <Ralph> -- Ben, in -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0178.html email

-- Ben, in -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0178.html email ←

16:14:28 <Ralph> Ben: am I correct in my interpretation of that 22-Jan discussion?

Unknown Ben: am I correct in my interpretation of that 22-Jan discussion? ←

16:14:37 <Ralph> ... @prefix on HEAD would apply to BODY also?

... @prefix on HEAD would apply to BODY also? ←

16:14:42 <Ralph> Manu: yes, that was the discussion

Unknown Manu: yes, that was the discussion ←

16:14:48 <Ralph> ... we didn't get too deeply into this

... we didn't get too deeply into this ←

16:14:59 <Ralph> ... Mark did propose this would be nice

... Mark did propose this would be nice ←

16:14:59 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, code? ←

16:14:59 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck ←

16:15:02 <Ralph> regrets+ Steven

regrets+ Steven ←

16:15:24 <msporny> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/

Unknown msporny: http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/ ←

16:15:31 <Ralph> Manu: there are 3 variations on @prefix syntax

Unknown Manu: there are 3 variations on @prefix syntax ←

16:15:42 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←

16:15:46 <Ralph> ... select 'Design Test Suite' and 'Unreviewed'

... select 'Design Test Suite' and 'Unreviewed' ←

16:15:51 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?p5

Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, i am ?p5 ←

16:15:51 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?p5'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?p5' ←

16:16:06 <TomB> just listening (muted)

Unknown TomB: just listening (muted) ←

16:16:15 <markbirbeck> zakim, ??p5

Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, ??p5 ←

16:16:15 <Zakim> I don't understand '??p5', markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??p5', markbirbeck ←

16:16:29 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?

Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, i am ? ←

16:16:29 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it ←

16:16:52 <TomB> :-)

Unknown TomB: :-) ←

16:17:16 <ShaneM> "We will serve no predicate before its time"

Unknown ShaneM: "We will serve no predicate before its time" ←

16:17:41 <Ralph> -- test 9001

-- test 9001 ←

16:17:41 <msporny> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/

Unknown msporny: http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/ ←

16:17:56 <Ralph> -- test 9001: Establishing @prefix on HTML element

-- test 9001: Establishing @prefix on HTML element ←

16:18:24 <Ralph> Manu: the purpose of these tests is just to provide a starting point for the design discussion

Unknown Manu: the purpose of these tests is just to provide a starting point for the design discussion ←

16:18:34 <msporny> http://rdfa.info/wiki/design-suite

Unknown msporny: http://rdfa.info/wiki/design-suite ←

16:18:55 <Ralph> -> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Design-suite#9001 explanation of purpose of test 9001

-> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Design-suite#9001 explanation of purpose of test 9001 ←

16:19:39 <Ralph> Manu: 9002 shows a CSS-like syntax, 9003 shows an '=' syntax

Unknown Manu: 9002 shows a CSS-like syntax, 9003 shows an '=' syntax ←

16:19:49 <Ralph> ... I prefer the '=' syntax, as does Toby Inkster

... I prefer the '=' syntax, as does Toby Inkster ←

16:20:15 <Ralph> Ben: three decisions; what to call this @ttribute, what's the value syntax, what's the parsing model

Unknown Ben: three decisions; what to call this @ttribute, what's the value syntax, what's the parsing model ←

16:20:44 <Ralph> Mark: sounds right.  the name is the least important

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Mark: sounds right. the name is the least important ←

16:20:59 <Ralph> Ben: the 3 test assume @prefix for the name and the same parsing model as @xmlns

Unknown Ben: the 3 test assume @prefix for the name and the same parsing model as @xmlns ←

16:21:07 <Ralph> ... they're testing for the value syntax options

... they're testing for the value syntax options ←

16:21:11 <Ralph> Manu: correct

Unknown Manu: correct ←

16:21:49 <Ralph> Ben: note that none of this discussion is really in scope for this Task Force

Unknown Ben: note that none of this discussion is really in scope for this Task Force ←

16:22:11 <Ralph> ... we're producing some notes on how to proceed

... we're producing some notes on how to proceed ←

16:22:25 <markbirbeck> q+

Unknown markbirbeck: q+ ←

16:22:32 <ShaneM> q+

Unknown ShaneM: q+ ←

16:22:37 <Ralph> ... should we make a decision, or should we just note these options and leave it to whatever group is chartered to decide?

... should we make a decision, or should we just note these options and leave it to whatever group is chartered to decide? ←

16:23:02 <Ralph> ... people who do implement these sorts of things tend to implement quickly

... people who do implement these sorts of things tend to implement quickly ←

16:23:10 <Ralph> ... Manu's already done something, as has Ivan

... Manu's already done something, as has Ivan ←

16:23:19 <Ralph> ... if we agree amongst ourselves this is a big step

... if we agree amongst ourselves this is a big step ←

16:23:29 <Ralph> ... could be a Note for a year or so

... could be a Note for a year or so ←

16:23:38 <Ralph> ... this would at least put it 'there'

... this would at least put it 'there' ←

16:23:54 <Ralph> ... already some useful discussions around named graphs

... already some useful discussions around named graphs ←

16:24:14 <Ralph> ... it would be good to converge on a way of approaching these even if we don't have a place to put the formal state of this convergence

... it would be good to converge on a way of approaching these even if we don't have a place to put the formal state of this convergence ←

16:24:29 <msporny> +1 for going as far as we can with the syntax for @prefix

Unknown msporny: +1 for going as far as we can with the syntax for @prefix ←

16:24:36 <Ralph> Ben: so we might proceed on the understanding that whatever we 'decide' can be overturned later

Unknown Ben: so we might proceed on the understanding that whatever we 'decide' can be overturned later ←

16:24:52 <Ralph> Shane: we're likely to be participants in whatever discussion is chartered

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: we're likely to be participants in whatever discussion is chartered ←

16:25:10 <Ralph> ... the XHTML2 WG can proceed now if it chooses

... the XHTML2 WG can proceed now if it chooses ←

16:25:25 <Ralph> ... addition of @profile to the XHTML module would be covered by our current WG charter

... addition of @profile to the XHTML module would be covered by our current WG charter ←

16:27:17 <markbirbeck> q+

Unknown markbirbeck: q+ ←

16:27:27 <benadida> ack shanem

Scribe problem: the name 'benadida' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown benadida: ack shanem ←

16:27:58 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss xmlns: and XML parsing rules

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to discuss xmlns: and XML parsing rules ←

16:29:18 <Ralph> Ralph: the SVG folk are pushing on @xmlns support in HTML as well

Unknown Ralph: the SVG folk are pushing on @xmlns support in HTML as well ←

16:29:28 <Ralph> ... SVG Tiny has fully incorporated RDFa

... SVG Tiny has fully incorporated RDFa ←

16:29:40 <Ralph> ... and SVG itself uses @xmlns

... and SVG itself uses @xmlns ←

16:29:58 <msporny> When Doug and I were talking at WDN09 - I found a wierd issue with him using xlink:href to specify hrefs in his SVG - it would break a RDFa parser as he marked it up.

Unknown msporny: When Doug and I were talking at WDN09 - I found a wierd issue with him using xlink:href to specify hrefs in his SVG - it would break a RDFa parser as he marked it up. ←

16:30:01 <Ralph> ... so are we diluting our message if we add a syntactic alternative?

... so are we diluting our message if we add a syntactic alternative? ←

16:30:14 <Ralph> Mark: it doesn't hurt to have both @xmlns and @prefix in the same document

Unknown Mark: it doesn't hurt to have both @xmlns and @prefix in the same document ←

16:30:33 <Ralph> ... we consciously left open this scope in the CURIE spec

... we consciously left open this scope in the CURIE spec ←

16:30:56 <Ralph> ... the wording says that XML documents should support @xmlns

... the wording says that XML documents should support @xmlns ←

16:31:05 <Ralph> ... but leaves open the possibility of alternatives

... but leaves open the possibility of alternatives ←

16:31:36 <Ralph> Shane: CURIE is Candidate Rec

Unknown Shane: CURIE is Candidate Rec ←

16:31:58 <Ralph> ... it is correct that alternative mechanisms are permitted by the CURIE spec

... it is correct that alternative mechanisms are permitted by the CURIE spec ←

16:32:14 <Ralph> ... the CURIE spec itself does not define any attributes

... the CURIE spec itself does not define any attributes ←

16:32:23 <Ralph> ... the XHTML2 spec defines the mapping mechanism

... the XHTML2 spec defines the mapping mechanism ←

16:32:42 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss xmlns: and XML parsing rules

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to discuss xmlns: and XML parsing rules ←

16:33:16 <Ralph> Shane: there's been a good argument in the recent days about why @xmlns: is not isomorphic w.r.t. processing model between HTML5 and XML

Unknown Shane: there's been a good argument in the recent days about why @xmlns: is not isomorphic w.r.t. processing model between HTML5 and XML ←

16:33:42 <Ralph> ... if we say that the attribute name "xmlns:foo" should be treated as a token,

... if we say that the attribute name "xmlns:foo" should be treated as a token, ←

16:33:59 <Ralph> ... the truth is that in the XML DOM a real parser should not be passing this token through

... the truth is that in the XML DOM a real parser should not be passing this token through ←

16:34:16 <Ralph> ... the actual name of the attribute is 'foo' in the XML namespace, not a string 'xmlns:foo'

... the actual name of the attribute is 'foo' in the XML namespace, not a string 'xmlns:foo' ←

16:34:33 <Ralph> ... @xml... is a reserved namespace

... @xml... is a reserved namespace ←

16:34:47 <Ralph> Mark: doesn't the API allow the application to retrieve the full name of the attribute?

Unknown Mark: doesn't the API allow the application to retrieve the full name of the attribute? ←

16:35:16 <Ralph> Manu: I thought Henri was specifically referring to XOM

Unknown Manu: I thought Henri was specifically referring to XOM ←

16:35:39 <Ralph> ... the level 1 API would be fine but the level 2 API would filter xmlns:foo to something else

... the level 1 API would be fine but the level 2 API would filter xmlns:foo to something else ←

16:36:19 <Ralph> Mark: but the argument was that an HTML5 processor _would_ give access to the full xmlns:foo whereas an XML pipeline would not

Unknown Mark: but the argument was that an HTML5 processor _would_ give access to the full xmlns:foo whereas an XML pipeline would not ←

16:36:32 <Ralph> ... so why would an application that wants the full string use such an XML pipeline?

... so why would an application that wants the full string use such an XML pipeline? ←

16:36:52 <Ralph> Manu: the point was that the cost is not zero as we've claimed

Unknown Manu: the point was that the cost is not zero as we've claimed ←

16:37:33 <msporny> +1 for prefix instead of xmlns:

Unknown msporny: +1 for prefix instead of xmlns: ←

16:37:34 <markbirbeck> +10

Unknown markbirbeck: +10 ←

16:37:37 <Ralph> Ben: independent of Henri's argument, do we feel that adding @prefix would be prefereable

Unknown Ben: independent of Henri's argument, do we feel that adding @prefix would be prefereable ←

16:38:14 <Ralph> Ralph: are you just talking about a synonym for @xmlns for CURIE prefixes?

Unknown Ralph: are you just talking about a synonym for @xmlns for CURIE prefixes? ←

16:38:38 <Ralph> ... or the added features of the value that are under discussion?

... or the added features of the value that are under discussion? ←

16:38:53 <Ralph> Mark: if we hadn't chosen @xmlns we'd be in deeper trouble

Unknown Mark: if we hadn't chosen @xmlns we'd be in deeper trouble ←

16:39:23 <Ralph> Ben: there's an argument that @xmlns is working better than expected; we _can_ actually get to it in the browsers

Unknown Ben: there's an argument that @xmlns is working better than expected; we _can_ actually get to it in the browsers ←

16:39:28 <msporny> me agrees - we needed to use xmlns: for XHTML, but we should provide @prefix as an alternative.

Unknown msporny: me agrees - we needed to use xmlns: for XHTML, but we should provide @prefix as an alternative. ←

16:39:39 <Ralph> ... there's another argument that even if it is working it comes at a cost and we should move to @prefix anyway

... there's another argument that even if it is working it comes at a cost and we should move to @prefix anyway ←

16:40:03 <Ralph> Ralph: but what _are_ the costs?  I see huge costs in destabilizing a sapec

Unknown Ralph: but what _are_ the costs? I see huge costs in destabilizing a spec ←

16:40:07 <Ralph> s/sapec/spec

16:40:21 <Ralph> Mark: we're also talking about changing the processing model a bit

Unknown Mark: we're also talking about changing the processing model a bit ←

16:40:36 <Ralph> ... currently we don't provide a way to import a bunch of mappings

... currently we don't provide a way to import a bunch of mappings ←

16:41:22 <Ralph> ... my main argument in favor of a new attribute is to add a feature to come closer to [the simplicity of] microformat

... my main argument in favor of a new attribute is to add a feature to come closer to [the simplicity of] microformat ←

16:41:47 <Ralph> Ben: I was trying to separate the two issues; new features vs. name

Unknown Ben: I was trying to separate the two issues; new features vs. name ←

16:41:55 <Ralph> Ralph: I don't think you can separate these questions now

Unknown Ralph: I don't think you can separate these questions now ←

16:42:13 <Ralph> Mark: namespaces have never really been resolved in terms of attribute contents

Unknown Mark: namespaces have never really been resolved in terms of attribute contents ←

16:42:35 <Ralph> ... so with a new attribute we could avoid some of the mistakes of namespaces

... so with a new attribute we could avoid some of the mistakes of namespaces ←

16:43:04 <Ralph> Ben: so if @prefix works exactly like @xmlns, are you leaning to preferring it?

Unknown Ben: so if @prefix works exactly like @xmlns, are you leaning to preferring it? ←

16:43:07 <Ralph> Manu, Shane: yes

Manu, Shane: yes ←

16:43:34 <Ralph> Manu: we're not talking about removing @xmlns; that would destabilize it

Unknown Manu: we're not talking about removing @xmlns; that would destabilize it ←

16:43:44 <Ralph> ... just adding @prefix as an alternative

... just adding @prefix as an alternative ←

16:44:07 <Ralph> Mark: the RDFa spec says that if @xmlns: is present, it should be processed

Unknown Mark: the RDFa spec says that if @xmlns: is present, it should be processed ←

16:44:18 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss extending list of reserved @rel values

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to discuss extending list of reserved @rel values ←

16:44:27 <Ralph> ... we'd still process both @xmlns and @prefix

... we'd still process both @xmlns and @prefix ←

16:44:48 <Ralph> ... in the CURIE spec I'm pretty sure we require that XML processors support @xmlns

... in the CURIE spec I'm pretty sure we require that XML processors support @xmlns ←

16:44:59 <ShaneM> CURIE spec says "When CURIES are used in an XML-based host language, and that host language supports XML Namespaces, prefix values MUST be able to be defined using the 'xmlns:' syntax specified in [XMLNAMES]. Such host languages MAY also provide additional prefix mapping definition mechanisms."

Unknown ShaneM: CURIE spec says "When CURIES are used in an XML-based host language, and that host language supports XML Namespaces, prefix values MUST be able to be defined using the 'xmlns:' syntax specified in [XMLNAMES]. Such host languages MAY also provide additional prefix mapping definition mechanisms." ←

16:45:15 <Ralph> Ben: in terms of the spec, we don't talk about HTML documents currently so I think we're safe adding @prefix

Unknown Ben: in terms of the spec, we don't talk about HTML documents currently so I think we're safe adding @prefix ←

16:45:23 <Ralph> ... we do have to talk about the precedence of @xmlns and @prefix

... we do have to talk about the precedence of @xmlns and @prefix ←

16:45:46 <Ralph> ... if we specified that @xmlns has precedence then we'd have a level of backward compatiblity for old XHTML parsers

... if we specified that @xmlns has precedence then we'd have a level of backward compatiblity for old XHTML parsers ←

16:46:49 <Ralph> Mark: sort-of; new parsers would generate more triples but the triples generated by an old parser would match that same subset generated by a new parser

Unknown Mark: sort-of; new parsers would generate more triples but the triples generated by an old parser would match that same subset generated by a new parser ←

16:49:20 <Ralph> Ben: a note from this TF suggesting that @prefix is a way forward would carry some weight

Unknown Ben: a note from this TF suggesting that @prefix is a way forward would carry some weight ←

16:49:44 <Ralph> Mark: we could argue that @prefix is a token substitution before the RDFa processing is invoked

Unknown Mark: we could argue that @prefix is a token substitution before the RDFa processing is invoked ←

16:49:55 <ShaneM> XHTML 1.2 could introduce @prefix

Unknown ShaneM: XHTML 1.2 could introduce @prefix ←

16:50:06 <Ralph> Ben: but that would mean that the RDFa Recommendation no longer is sufficient to implement an RDFa processor

Unknown Ben: but that would mean that the RDFa Recommendation no longer is sufficient to implement an RDFa processor ←

16:50:17 <msporny> who's working on XHTML 1.2, Shane?

Unknown msporny: who's working on XHTML 1.2, Shane? ←

16:50:38 <Ralph> Mark: if @prefix is not introduced by some group with some authority then the HTML WG [might not give it any attention]

Unknown Mark: if @prefix is not introduced by some group with some authority then the HTML WG [might not give it any attention] ←

16:50:56 <Ralph> ... the XHTML2 WG could give this a home and then in the future we harmonize the two

... the XHTML2 WG could give this a home and then in the future we harmonize the two ←

16:51:09 <Ralph> Ben: test cases using @prefix would have to live somewhere

Unknown Ben: test cases using @prefix would have to live somewhere ←

16:51:15 <Ralph> Mark: could be on a Wiki

Unknown Mark: could be on a Wiki ←

16:52:02 <Ralph> ... a Last Call comment on CURIE would allow the XHTML2 WG to be on the record

... a Last Call comment on CURIE would allow the XHTML2 WG to be on the record ←

16:52:13 <Ralph> ... as supporting it for some future version

... as supporting it for some future version ←

16:52:37 <Ralph> Ben: do we want to say that RDFa parsers should start supporting @prefix soon?

Unknown Ben: do we want to say that RDFa parsers should start supporting @prefix soon? ←

16:52:52 <Ralph> ... if we want @prefix to be supported in both HTML and XHTML

... if we want @prefix to be supported in both HTML and XHTML ←

16:53:05 <Ralph> ... so we'd recommend that new markup use @prefix instead of @xmlns

... so we'd recommend that new markup use @prefix instead of @xmlns ←

16:53:31 <Ralph> ... so some document at some time in the future should say how to write such a new RDFa parser

... so some document at some time in the future should say how to write such a new RDFa parser ←

16:54:12 <Ralph> Mark: given our recent experience of HTML5 discussions, it's asking for trouble if we base this on trying to find some accommodation

Unknown Mark: given our recent experience of HTML5 discussions, it's asking for trouble if we base this on trying to find some accommodation ←

16:54:25 <Ralph> ... whereas if we say we really believe this [independently], we have a stronger argument

... whereas if we say we really believe this [independently], we have a stronger argument ←

16:55:17 <Ralph> Ben: sounds like we'd want to update the RDFa specification to add @prefix to it

Unknown Ben: sounds like we'd want to update the RDFa specification to add @prefix to it ←

16:55:20 <ShaneM> I think that we could successfully do this as a "PER" second edition of RDFa Syntax 1.0

Unknown ShaneM: I think that we could successfully do this as a "PER" second edition of RDFa Syntax 1.0 ←

16:55:25 <Ralph> ... @xmlns would still be supported

... @xmlns would still be supported ←

16:59:00 <Ralph> Ralph: it would be harmful for this group to push for XML documents that do not conform to the W3C Recommendation

Unknown Ralph: it would be harmful for this group to push for XML documents that do not conform to the W3C Recommendation ←

16:59:20 <Ralph> ... so I am opposed to adding @prefix without updating the Recommendation

... so I am opposed to adding @prefix without updating the Recommendation ←

16:59:48 <Ralph> ... the cost of updating the Recommendation could be justified if the update included new features as well

... the cost of updating the Recommendation could be justified if the update included new features as well ←

17:00:33 <Ralph> ... a possible new feature is the value syntax for @prefix

... a possible new feature is the value syntax for @prefix ←

17:01:41 <Ralph> Shane: the XHTML2 WG could update the RDFa Recommendation

Unknown Shane: the XHTML2 WG could update the RDFa Recommendation ←

17:01:45 <Ralph> Ralph: yes, that's plausible

Unknown Ralph: yes, that's plausible ←

17:02:46 <Ralph> Ben: so wiki pages, test cases, etc. should have large disclaimers right now saying @prefix is experimental

Unknown Ben: so wiki pages, test cases, etc. should have large disclaimers right now saying @prefix is experimental ←

17:03:49 <Ralph> ... path forward could be to keep this discussion in the wiki as experimental, talk with implementors, work out details in the experimental wiki page

... path forward could be to keep this discussion in the wiki as experimental, talk with implementors, work out details in the experimental wiki page ←

17:03:53 <Ralph> Manu: yes

Unknown Manu: yes ←

17:04:59 <Ralph> Mark: I'm a bit uneasy as there are documents being circulated that look like specifications when they should really be blogs

Unknown Mark: I'm a bit uneasy as there are documents being circulated that look like specifications when they should really be blogs ←

17:05:27 <Ralph> ... and the wiki might start to look like a specification too

... and the wiki might start to look like a specification too ←

17:05:40 <Ralph> ... the wiki shouldn't imply that we all agree on the content

... the wiki shouldn't imply that we all agree on the content ←

17:05:59 <Ralph> Manu: you want more than the "experimental" note on the wiki pages?

Unknown Manu: you want more than the "experimental" note on the wiki pages? ←

17:06:13 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

17:06:14 <Ralph> ... "the existence of this page does not imply ..."

... "the existence of this page does not imply ..." ←

17:06:34 <Ralph> Mark: might be worth having a higher-level page that links to these

Unknown Mark: might be worth having a higher-level page that links to these ←

17:07:22 <Ralph> [adjourned]

[adjourned] ←

17:07:28 <Zakim> -msporny

Zakim IRC Bot: -msporny ←

17:07:29 <Zakim> -markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←

17:07:31 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben_Adida' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ben_Adida ←

17:07:32 <Zakim> -TomB

Zakim IRC Bot: -TomB ←

17:07:33 <Zakim> -Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph ←

17:07:35 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended ←

17:07:35 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes

rrsagent, please draft minutes ←

17:07:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←

17:07:36 <Zakim> Attendees were msporny, ShaneM, Ralph, Ben_Adida, TomB, markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were msporny, ShaneM, Ralph, Ben_Adida, TomB, markbirbeck ←

17:07:48 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes

rrsagent, please draft minutes ←

17:07:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←

17:07:54 <Ralph> zakim, bye

zakim, bye ←

17:10:20 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes

rrsagent, please draft minutes ←

17:10:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←

17:14:08 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye

rrsagent, bye ←

17:14:08 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←

Formatted by CommonScribe