Meeting Record

RDFa Task Force

Minutes of 15 November 2007

Agenda

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0040.html

Seen

Unknown Ben, Unknown Manu, Unknown Michael_Hausenblas, Unknown Ralph, Unknown benadida, Unknown markbirbeck, Unknown mhausenblas, Unknown msporny

Regrets

Unknown Steven

Chair

Unknown Ben

Scribe

Unknown Ralph, Unknown mhausenblas

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

None.

Topics

ISWC
Action Review
Action Review
follow-your-nose
whitespace canonicalization
@instanceof

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16:04:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc ←

16:04:20 <Ralph> zakim, this will be rdfa

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ralph: zakim, this will be rdfa ←

16:04:20 <Zakim> ok, Ralph, I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Ralph, I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM already started ←

16:04:24 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the phone?

Unknown Ralph: zakim, who's on the phone? ←

16:04:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P15, Michael_Hausenblas

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P15, Michael_Hausenblas ←

16:04:28 <Zakim> +Ben

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ben ←

16:04:30 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?

Scribe problem: the name 'markbirbeck' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, code? ←

16:04:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck ←

16:04:41 <Zakim> +Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph ←

16:04:49 <Ralph> Meeting: RDFa Task Force

16:04:52 <Ralph> Chair: Ben

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

16:05:03 <Zakim> +markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck ←

created using i/Agenda: http/scribenick: Ralph/

(Scribe set to Unknown Ralph)

16:05:08 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0040.html

16:05:15 <Ralph> zakim, ??p15 is Manuy

zakim, ??p15 is Manuy ←

16:05:15 <Zakim> +Manuy; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Manuy; got it ←

16:05:23 <Ralph> zakim, Manuy is Manu

zakim, Manuy is Manu ←

16:05:23 <Zakim> +Manu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Manu; got it ←

16:06:01 <Ralph> Regrets: Steven

Scribe problem: the name 'Steven' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

16:06:49 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-10-26

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-10-26 ←

16:07:12 <Ralph> Topic: ISWC

1. ISWC

16:07:28 <Ralph> Michael: lots of questions, especially "when will the spec be finished?!"

Scribe problem: the name 'Michael' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Michael: lots of questions, especially "when will the spec be finished?!" ←

16:07:34 <Ralph> ... lots of discussion of open data

... lots of discussion of open data ←

16:07:39 <Ralph> ... see Ivan's blog

... see Ivan's blog ←

16:07:43 <benadida> --> http://ivanherman.wordpress.com/

Scribe problem: the name 'benadida' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown benadida: --> http://ivanherman.wordpress.com/ ←

16:07:51 <benadida> --> http://ivanherman.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/iswc2007-?-first-day/

Unknown benadida: --> http://ivanherman.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/iswc2007-?-first-day/ ←

16:08:46 <Ralph> Topic: Action Review

2. Action Review

16:09:05 <Ralph> Michael: I talked with Fabien for a while, especially about profile

Unknown Michael: I talked with Fabien for a while, especially about profile ←

16:09:16 <Ralph> ... Fabien said he'd be happy to give his stuff to W3C

... Fabien said he'd be happy to give his stuff to W3C ←

16:09:32 <Ralph> ... we already have the RDFa GRDDL profile URI assigned

... we already have the RDFa GRDDL profile URI assigned ←

16:09:47 <Ralph> Ben: is there a licensing question for Fabien's work?

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ben: is there a licensing question for Fabien's work? ←

16:09:53 <Ralph> Michael: not aware of one

Unknown Michael: not aware of one ←

16:10:15 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C

ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C ←

16:11:06 <Ralph> Michael: there were two RDFa-based things shown at ISWC

Unknown Michael: there were two RDFa-based things shown at ISWC ←

16:11:14 <Ralph> ... most people seemed to already know about RDFa

... most people seemed to already know about RDFa ←

16:11:21 <Ralph> Topic: Action Review

3. Action Review

16:11:34 <Ralph> [WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Steven propose an adaptation of the CSS whitespace rules to incorporate into the Syntax document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

[WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Steven propose an adaptation of the CSS whitespace rules to incorporate into the Syntax document [recorded in ACTION-06]">http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-06] ←

16:11:49 <Ralph> Ben: given consensus forming around Mark's proposal on the mailing list I think we can withdraw this

Unknown Ben: given consensus forming around Mark's proposal on the mailing list I think we can withdraw this ←

16:12:01 <Ralph> [DONE] Ben enter Ivan's concerns in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0173.html as issues in tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

[DONE] Ben enter Ivan's concerns in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0173.html as issues in tracker [recorded in ACTION-08]">http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-08] ←

16:12:09 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in ACTION-06]">http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-06] ←

16:12:11 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

16:12:19 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

16:12:20 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

16:12:30 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the implementation of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the implementation of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded in ACTION-07]">http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-07] ←

16:12:34 <Ralph> -- done

-- done ←

16:12:46 <Ralph> Manu: it's hosted outside of W3C right now

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Manu: it's hosted outside of W3C right now ←

16:13:21 <Ralph> ... we'll wait until we've published a public draft before moving it to W3C

... we'll wait until we've published a public draft before moving it to W3C ←

16:13:33 <Ralph> ... easier to fix bugs on my site before moving it to W3C

... easier to fix bugs on my site before moving it to W3C ←

16:14:12 <Ralph> Ralph: would a proxy URI work given your implementation?

Unknown Ralph: would a proxy URI work given your implementation? ←

16:14:20 <Ralph> Manu: not sure; there's a lot of javascript

Unknown Manu: not sure; there's a lot of javascript ←

16:14:27 <Ralph> ... there's a redirect right now

... there's a redirect right now ←

16:15:30 <Ralph> ... I'll find the URI after this call

... I'll find the URI after this call ←

16:15:40 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in ACTION-06]">http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-06] ←

16:15:42 <Ralph> -- continue

-- continue ←

16:18:51 <Ralph> Topic: follow-your-nose

4. follow-your-nose

16:18:54 <Ralph> Ralph: have we decided this?

Unknown Ralph: have we decided this? ←

16:19:06 <Ralph> Ben: yes, we've agreed that @profile is permitted but not required

Unknown Ben: yes, we've agreed that @profile is permitted but not required ←

16:19:15 <Ralph> Ralph: have we documented this adequately?

Unknown Ralph: have we documented this adequately? ←

16:19:25 <Ralph> Mark: no, I've not finished the words in the syntax doc

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Mark: no, I've not finished the words in the syntax doc ←

16:20:03 <Ralph> Michael: Shane suggested a way to anchor the syntax doc so it can be referenced from the test suite

Unknown Michael: Shane suggested a way to anchor the syntax doc so it can be referenced from the test suite ←

16:20:41 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28 issue 28 follow-your-nose

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28 ISSUE-28 follow-your-nose ←

16:21:00 <Ralph> "2007-11-15: agreement from telecon that we have a profile, we encourage its use where possible, but we don't require it. This needs to be stated clearly in the syntax (it's not currently.)"

"2007-11-15: agreement from telecon that we have a profile, we encourage its use where possible, but we don't require it. This needs to be stated clearly in the syntax (it's not currently.)" ←

16:21:24 <Ralph> Topic: whitespace canonicalization

5. whitespace canonicalization

16:22:02 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0029.html "[Fwd: ISSUE-63: White-Space Canonicalization of XML Literals]" [Ben 2007-11-08]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0029.html "[Fwd: ISSUE-63: White-Space Canonicalization of XML Literals]" [Ben 2007-11-08] ←

16:22:13 <Ralph> Ben: I think we agreed to use XPath normalized space rules

Unknown Ben: I think we agreed to use XPath normalized space rules ←

16:22:24 <Ralph> ... to canonicalize non-XML literals

... to canonicalize non-XML literals ←

16:22:46 <Ralph> ... 3 pieces: plain literals - no data type declared or datatype declared as empty

... 3 pieces: plain literals - no data type declared or datatype declared as empty ←

16:22:59 <Ralph> ... for plain literals, use XPath normalized space as Mark proposed

... for plain literals, use XPath normalized space as Mark proposed ←

16:23:15 <Ralph> Michael: Fabien would like us to base on XPath too

Unknown Michael: Fabien would like us to base on XPath too ←

16:23:27 <Ralph> Ben: any objections?

Unknown Ben: any objections? ←

16:23:29 <Ralph> (none)

(none) ←

16:23:49 <Ralph> Ben: PROPOSE plain literals normalized using XPath normalized space

Unknown Ben: PROPOSE plain literals normalized using XPath normalized space ←

16:24:00 <mhausenblas> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'mhausenblas' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown mhausenblas: +1 ←

16:24:17 <Ralph> RESOLVED plain literals are normalized using XPath normalized-space

RESOLVED plain literals are normalized using XPath normalized-space ←

16:24:58 <Ralph> Michael: technically this means remove leading and trailing whitespace and collapse consecutive whitespace to a single whitespace

Unknown Michael: technically this means remove leading and trailing whitespace and collapse consecutive whitespace to a single whitespace ←

16:25:32 <Ralph> Ben: parts 2 & 3 - typed non-XML literals  and XMLLiterals

Unknown Ben: parts 2 & 3 - typed non-XML literals and XMLLiterals ←

16:25:47 <Ralph> ... for non-XML literals I believe we should do the same thing [as plain literal]

... for non-XML literals I believe we should do the same thing [as plain literal] ←

16:26:05 <Ralph> Manu: are there any XSD datatypes that require spaces?

Unknown Manu: are there any XSD datatypes that require spaces? ←

16:26:27 <Ralph> ... if not, the argument in favor of using XPath normalized-space for this too is stronger

... if not, the argument in favor of using XPath normalized-space for this too is stronger ←

16:26:39 <Ralph> Ben: I'm not aware of any; they'd be hard to render in HTML

Unknown Ben: I'm not aware of any; they'd be hard to render in HTML ←

16:26:51 <Ralph> ... what do we do with value of @content ?

... what do we do with value of @content ? ←

16:27:08 <Ralph> Mark: I'm drafting a reply to the mail

Unknown Mark: I'm drafting a reply to the mail ←

16:27:16 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure what we should do with all the cases

... I'm not sure what we should do with all the cases ←

16:27:28 <Ralph> ... the more I've looked into this, the more awkward it seems to be getting

... the more I've looked into this, the more awkward it seems to be getting ←

16:27:43 <Ralph> ... mainly the relationship to the browser

... mainly the relationship to the browser ←

16:27:57 <Ralph> ... the normal behaviour with XML appears to be to remove white space even in an attribute

... the normal behaviour with XML appears to be to remove white space even in an attribute ←

16:28:19 <Ralph> Manu: no, xs:normalize-string tells the XML process to remove whitespace and the default is to preserve whitespace

Unknown Manu: no, xs:normalize-string tells the XML process to remove whitespace and the default is to preserve whitespace ←

16:28:35 <Ralph> Ben: let's close the non-XML cases first

Unknown Ben: let's close the non-XML cases first ←

16:28:39 <benadida> <span content="   foo   bar   " />

Unknown benadida: <span content=" foo bar " /> ←

16:29:07 <Ralph> Ben: are spaces in @content preserved?  I suspect so, but am not sure

Unknown Ben: are spaces in @content preserved? I suspect so, but am not sure ←

16:29:08 <mhausenblas> -> http://xml.silmaril.ie/authors/whitespace/

Unknown mhausenblas: -> http://xml.silmaril.ie/authors/whitespace/ ←

16:30:05 <Ralph> Mark: we're limited in our flexibility because of what browsers actually do

Unknown Mark: we're limited in our flexibility because of what browsers actually do ←

16:30:36 <Ralph> ... if there are browsers that return "foo bar" in that example, or browsers that remove newlines, we'd have to force normalization

... if there are browsers that return "foo bar" in that example, or browsers that remove newlines, we'd have to force normalization ←

16:30:56 <Ralph> Ben: it's clear to me that we want to normalize whatever the user would actually see

Unknown Ben: it's clear to me that we want to normalize whatever the user would actually see ←

16:31:06 <Ralph> ... not so clear what should happen for @content

... not so clear what should happen for @content ←

16:31:19 <Ralph> Mark: the rendering of content with whitespace is already clearly defined

Unknown Mark: the rendering of content with whitespace is already clearly defined ←

16:31:30 <Ralph> ... consecutive whitespace is collapsed

... consecutive whitespace is collapsed ←

16:31:34 <mhausenblas> Support Mark: -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml11-20060816/#sec-white-space XML spec

Unknown mhausenblas: Support Mark: -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml11-20060816/#sec-white-space XML spec ←

16:31:53 <Ralph> ... question is what the DOM level returns in a query

... question is what the DOM level returns in a query ←

16:32:10 <Ralph> Ben: I think element content and attribute values are handled differently by browsers

Unknown Ben: I think element content and attribute values are handled differently by browsers ←

16:32:23 <Ralph> ... e.g. Firefox appears to preserve all whitespace in attribute value

... e.g. Firefox appears to preserve all whitespace in attribute value ←

16:33:00 <Ralph> ... seems to support the model that data visible to user is normalized and when the author wants to override that, use @content

... seems to support the model that data visible to user is normalized and when the author wants to override that, use @content ←

16:33:22 <Ralph> Mark: seems that could work

Unknown Mark: seems that could work ←

16:33:27 <Ralph> Manu: sounds like a good approach

Unknown Manu: sounds like a good approach ←

16:33:33 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml-modularization-20010410/conformance.html#s_conform_user_agent XHTML spec

Unknown mhausenblas: -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml-modularization-20010410/conformance.html#s_conform_user_agent XHTML spec ←

16:34:09 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben check that browsers do preserve whitespace in attribute values

ACTION: Ben check that browsers do preserve whitespace in attribute values ←

16:34:23 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael check that HTML spec says to preserve whitespace in attribute values

ACTION: Michael check that HTML spec says to preserve whitespace in attribute values ←

16:34:59 <Ralph> Ben: assuming that element content is normalized and attribute values preserve whitespace,

Unknown Ben: assuming that element content is normalized and attribute values preserve whitespace, ←

16:35:36 <benadida> normalize: <span property="dc:date" datatype="xsd:date">     2007-11-15   </span>

Scribe problem: the name 'normalize' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown normalize: <span property="dc:date" datatype="xsd:date"> 2007-11-15 </span> [ Scribe Assist by Unknown benadida ] ←

16:36:04 <benadida> don't normalize: <span property="dc:date" datatype="xsd:date" content="    2007-11-15   " />

Unknown benadida: don't normalize: <span property="dc:date" datatype="xsd:date" content=" 2007-11-15 " /> ←

16:37:02 <Ralph> ... does it make sense to normalize element content and not normalize @content even when datatype is specified?

... does it make sense to normalize element content and not normalize @content even when datatype is specified? ←

16:37:09 <Ralph> Manu: yep, makes sense

Unknown Manu: yep, makes sense ←

16:37:44 <Ralph> Mark: in XML spec, there's full normalization of element content; newlines removed, whitespace collapsed

Unknown Mark: in XML spec, there's full normalization of element content; newlines removed, whitespace collapsed ←

16:37:59 <Ralph> ... then there's another kind of normalization that replaces newlines with a single whitespace

... then there's another kind of normalization that replaces newlines with a single whitespace ←

16:38:33 <Ralph> ... if there were a newline in @content, that would have become a single space

... if there were a newline in @content, that would have become a single space ←

16:38:45 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xml-20001006#AVNormalize

Unknown markbirbeck: http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xml-20001006#AVNormalize ←

16:38:49 <Ralph> ... so it's not just leaving attribute value untouched

... so it's not just leaving attribute value untouched ←

16:39:26 <Ralph> Ben: Firefox appears to remove newline from attribute value

Unknown Ben: Firefox appears to remove newline from attribute value ←

16:40:15 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml-modularization-20010410/conformance.html#s_conform_user_agent

Unknown markbirbeck: http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml-modularization-20010410/conformance.html#s_conform_user_agent ←

16:41:22 <Ralph> Ben: on further testing, Firefox strips leading newline but preserves non-leading newlines

Unknown Ben: on further testing, Firefox strips leading newline but preserves non-leading newlines ←

16:41:43 <Ralph> ... so we need to both understand the [XML] spec and investigate what browsers are actually doing

... so we need to both understand the [XML] spec and investigate what browsers are actually doing ←

16:41:51 <Ralph> ... hopefully the browsers are doing something sensible

... hopefully the browsers are doing something sensible ←

16:42:06 <Ralph> Michael: and hopefully the browsers behave consistently

Unknown Michael: and hopefully the browsers behave consistently ←

16:42:31 <Ralph> Mark: we could add our own rules, such as requiring leading newlines to be stripped

Unknown Mark: we could add our own rules, such as requiring leading newlines to be stripped ←

16:43:06 <Ralph> Ben: for XMLLiterals, I'd like us to preserve them if we can

Unknown Ben: for XMLLiterals, I'd like us to preserve them if we can ←

16:43:16 <Ralph> ... but if browsers do canonicalize, I think we have to allow it

... but if browsers do canonicalize, I think we have to allow it ←

16:43:36 <Ralph> ... I don't expect canonicalization to change how the literal is rendered

... I don't expect canonicalization to change how the literal is rendered ←

16:44:23 <Ralph> Ben: conclusion; we'll normalize plain literals and element content but not normalize @content value except perhaps for special rule about leading newlines depending on what browsers do

Unknown Ben: conclusion; we'll normalize plain literals and element content but not normalize @content value except perhaps for special rule about leading newlines depending on what browsers do ←

16:44:57 <Ralph> ... I need to test both in HTML and XHTML mode

... I need to test both in HTML and XHTML mode ←

16:45:50 <Ralph> Topic: @instanceof

6. @instanceof

16:46:26 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0030.html "chaining-friendly rules for @instanceof" [Ben 2007-11-08]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0030.html "chaining-friendly rules for @instanceof" [Ben 2007-11-08] ←

16:47:06 <Ralph> Mark: happy with the list discussion

Unknown Mark: happy with the list discussion ←

16:47:12 <Ralph> ... I'm more clear now on where the problems lie

... I'm more clear now on where the problems lie ←

16:47:47 <Ralph> ... in most areas Ben's proposal and mine appear to be in agreement

... in most areas Ben's proposal and mine appear to be in agreement ←

16:48:02 <Ralph> ... my main problem with Ben's @instanceof rule is that things change meaning as you add or remove markup

... my main problem with Ben's @instanceof rule is that things change meaning as you add or remove markup ←

16:48:56 <Ralph> ... I feel strongly enough about the flipping of meaning that I'd rather remove @instanceof for now in the interest of time

... I feel strongly enough about the flipping of meaning that I'd rather remove @instanceof for now in the interest of time ←

16:49:41 <Ralph> ... reinvention of chaining shows it is a useful concept

... reinvention of chaining shows it is a useful concept ←

16:50:05 <Ralph> ... I think we can tweak things to work

... I think we can tweak things to work ←

16:50:20 <Ralph> ... and easier than trying to make @instanceof sometimes apply to subject and sometimes to object

... and easier than trying to make @instanceof sometimes apply to subject and sometimes to object ←

16:50:44 <Ralph> ... I'd like to say that adding predicates always behaves consistently

... I'd like to say that adding predicates always behaves consistently ←

16:51:01 <Ralph> ... once a subject is declared, predicates are added to it in a consistent way

... once a subject is declared, predicates are added to it in a consistent way ←

16:51:13 <Ralph> ... people need time to look through the long emails

... people need time to look through the long emails ←

16:52:04 <Ralph> Ben: does this really only concern @instanceof?  in email Mark described chaining rules that appear to interpret some markup differently

Unknown Ben: does this really only concern @instanceof? in email Mark described chaining rules that appear to interpret some markup differently ←

16:52:32 <Ralph> Mark: I couldn't see any differences in the treatment of chaining if we drop @instanceof except one case where Ben has an additional rule

Unknown Mark: I couldn't see any differences in the treatment of chaining if we drop @instanceof except one case where I have an additional rule ←

16:52:56 <Ralph> ... the general idea of chaining is that there's a subject and predicate and the object can become the subject of further predicates

... the general idea of chaining is that there's a subject and predicate and the object can become the subject of further predicates ←

16:53:02 <benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows">   <span about="#ivan" property="foaf:name">Ivan</span> </div>

Unknown benadida: <div rel="foaf:knows"> <span about="#ivan" property="foaf:name">Ivan</span> </div> ←

16:53:23 <Ralph> ... the one rule I've added is @rel without an object can take object from @about in a child element

... the one rule I've added is @rel without an object can take object from @about in a child element ←

16:53:29 <Ralph> s/where Ben has/where I have/

16:53:48 <Ralph> Ben: in my example above, I believe the current parsing rules do not cause chaining

Unknown Ben: in my example above, I believe the current parsing rules do not cause chaining ←

16:53:58 <Ralph> ... in Mark's proposal this example would cause chaining

... in Mark's proposal this example would cause chaining ←

16:54:49 <Ralph> Mark: right.

Unknown Mark: right. ←

16:55:41 <Ralph> Ben: if we accept this model of chaining but keep @instanceof, then are there use cases we can't express?

Unknown Ben: if we accept this model of chaining but keep @instanceof, then are there use cases we can't express? ←

16:55:45 <Ralph> Mark: I don't think so

Unknown Mark: I don't think so ←

16:56:48 <Ralph> Ben: I think that having an element pick up the object from a child is core to solving some use cases

Unknown Ben: I think that having an element pick up the object from a child is core to solving some use cases ←

16:57:04 <markbirbeck> <div rel="foaf:knows">  <span property="foaf:name">Ivan</span> </div>

Unknown markbirbeck: <div rel="foaf:knows"> <span property="foaf:name">Ivan</span> </div> ←

16:57:26 <benadida> <> foaf:knows [foaf:name "Ivan"] .

Unknown benadida: <> foaf:knows [foaf:name "Ivan"] . ←

16:58:20 <Ralph> Mark: in my model, @instanceof behaves no differently from any other predicate

Unknown Mark: in my model, @instanceof behaves no differently from any other predicate ←

16:58:33 <markbirbeck> <div rel="foaf:knows">  <span property="foaf:name" instanceof="foaf:Person">Ivan</span> </div>

Unknown markbirbeck: <div rel="foaf:knows"> <span property="foaf:name" instanceof="foaf:Person">Ivan</span> </div> ←

16:59:10 <Ralph> Ben: the way I interpret Manu's rules, it seems there is no chaining

Unknown Ben: the way I interpret Manu's rules, it seems there is no chaining ←

16:59:16 <markbirbeck> <> foaf:knows [foaf:name "Ivan"; rdf:type foaf:Person] .

Unknown markbirbeck: <> foaf:knows [foaf:name "Ivan"; rdf:type foaf:Person] . ←

16:59:21 <Ralph> ... the foaf:knows would be left hanging

... the foaf:knows would be left hanging ←

16:59:25 <Ralph> Manu: that's not what I meant

Unknown Manu: that's not what I meant ←

16:59:35 <Ralph> ... I meant what I think Mark is proposing

... I meant what I think Mark is proposing ←

16:59:56 <Ralph> ... I don't think there's a difference between what Mark is saying and what I was trying to say

... I don't think there's a difference between what Mark is saying and what I was trying to say ←

17:01:04 <Ralph> Ben: I'm worried about some inconsistencies

Unknown Ben: I'm worried about some inconsistencies ←

17:01:19 <Zakim> -Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph ←

17:02:51 <mhausenblas> ScribeNick: mhausenblas

(Scribe set to Unknown mhausenblas)

17:02:57 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes

RRSAgent, draft minutes ←

17:02:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas ←

17:03:23 <mhausenblas> Ben: Other issues?

Unknown Ben: Other issues? ←

17:03:45 <mhausenblas> (none)

(none) ←

17:03:55 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public

RRSAgent, make logs public ←

17:07:25 <mhausenblas> Ben: Will send out some examples - TF members will play mechanical-turk-parser

Unknown Ben: Will send out some examples - TF members will play mechanical-turk-parser ←

17:07:52 <markbirbeck> http://newsbiscuit.com/article/disillusioned-mr-google-resigns-199

Unknown markbirbeck: http://newsbiscuit.com/article/disillusioned-mr-google-resigns-199 ←

17:08:11 <markbirbeck> On being a mechanical turk :)

Unknown markbirbeck: On being a mechanical turk :) ←

17:08:25 <msporny> :)

Scribe problem: the name 'msporny' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown msporny: :) ←

17:09:05 <mhausenblas> Michael: Regarding TC we need to get the one which are on-hold either approved or get rid of it

Unknown Michael: Regarding TC we need to get the one which are on-hold either approved or get rid of it ←

17:09:50 <mhausenblas> Ben: We are on good way to Last Call - let's keep on the good work!

Unknown Ben: We are on good way to Last Call - let's keep on the good work! ←

17:10:07 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes

RRSAgent, draft minutes ←

17:10:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas ←

17:10:33 <Zakim> -Manu

Zakim IRC Bot: -Manu ←

17:10:35 <Zakim> -markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←

17:10:36 <Zakim> -Michael_Hausenblas

Scribe problem: the name 'Michael_Hausenblas' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Michael_Hausenblas ←

17:10:36 <Zakim> -Ben

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ben ←

17:10:37 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended ←

17:10:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ben, Ralph, markbirbeck, Manu

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ben, Ralph, markbirbeck, Manu ←

17:10:54 <mhausenblas> Zakim, list attendees

Zakim, list attendees ←

17:10:54 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, mhausenblas, I don't know what conference this is ←

17:11:03 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes

RRSAgent, draft minutes ←

17:11:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas ←

17:12:01 <mhausenblas> zakim, bye

zakim, bye ←

17:12:07 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, bye

rrsagent, bye ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-actions.rdf : ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [1]

ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [1] ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-10-15

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-10-15 ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [2]

ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in ACTION-06]">http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-06] [2] ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-12-09

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-12-09 ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [3]

ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] [3] ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-12-19

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-12-19 ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the implementation of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [4]

17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-12-30

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-12-30 ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [5]

ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in ACTION-06]">http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-06] [5] ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-15-40

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-15-40 ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben check that browsers do preserve whitespace in attribute values [6]

ACTION: Ben check that browsers do preserve whitespace in attribute values [6] ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-34-09

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-34-09 ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael check that HTML spec says to preserve whitespace in attribute values [7]

ACTION: Michael check that HTML spec says to preserve whitespace in attribute values [7] ←

17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-34-23

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-34-23 ←

19:44:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc

(No events recorded for 152 minutes)

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc ←

19:45:16 <Ralph> i/Agenda: http/scribenick: Ralph/

19:45:37 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes

Unknown Ralph: rrsagent, please draft minutes ←

19:45:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←

19:45:41 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye

Unknown Ralph: rrsagent, bye ←

19:45:48 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public

Unknown Ralph: rrsagent, please make record public ←

19:45:49 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye

Unknown Ralph: rrsagent, bye ←

19:45:49 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←

Formatted by CommonScribe