edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 04 December 2013

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Markus Lanthaler, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Ted Thibodeau, Thomas Baker, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
Chair
Guus Schreiber
Scribe
Sandro Hawke
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. minutes 27 Nov accepted link
  2. Change the semantics tests to use an explicit contradiction marker, in the test manifest, instead of having everything following from a contradiction. link
  3. close issue-172 issue-173 issue-174 issue-175 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html link
Topics
15:14:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-irc

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15:14:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

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15:14:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

15:14:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 46 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 46 minutes

15:14:54 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:14:54 <trackbot> Date: 04 December 2013
15:19:52 <ivan> Chair: Guus
15:36:46 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.12.04

(No events recorded for 21 minutes)

Ted Thibodeau: TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.12.04

15:59:36 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

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Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

15:59:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:59:45 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

15:59:45 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:59:57 <Zakim> +pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps

16:00:29 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus_Schreiber

16:00:34 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

16:00:40 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:00:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, ??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, ??P6

16:00:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, AZ, Guus, tbaker, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, TallTed, davidwood, AndyS, m4nu, yvesr, ericP, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, AZ, Guus, tbaker, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, TallTed, davidwood, AndyS, m4nu, yvesr, ericP, trackbot

16:00:52 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

16:01:30 <Zakim> +??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11

16:01:38 <AZ> Zakim, ??P11 is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, ??P11 is me

16:01:39 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

16:01:43 <ivan> zakim, code?

Ivan Herman: zakim, code?

16:01:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan

16:02:16 <Zakim> +David_Wood

Zakim IRC Bot: +David_Wood

16:02:31 <Guus> chair: Guus
16:02:33 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

16:02:47 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13

16:02:47 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:02:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, Sandro, AZ, David_Wood, Ivan, ??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, Sandro, AZ, David_Wood, Ivan, ??P13

16:02:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see pchampin, gkellogg, pfps, AZ, Guus, tbaker, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, TallTed, davidwood, AndyS, m4nu, yvesr, ericP, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pchampin, gkellogg, pfps, AZ, Guus, tbaker, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, TallTed, davidwood, AndyS, m4nu, yvesr, ericP, trackbot

16:03:04 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P13 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P13 is me

16:03:04 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

16:03:05 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

16:03:12 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

16:03:12 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it

16:03:14 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:03:14 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

16:03:20 <Zakim> +??P18

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18

16:03:23 <markus> zakim, ??P18 is me

Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P18 is me

16:03:23 <Zakim> +markus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it

16:03:27 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

16:03:30 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P16

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P16

16:03:31 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

16:03:42 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15

16:03:51 <pchampin> zakim, ??P15 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P15 is me

16:03:51 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

16:04:59 <sandro> scribe: sandro

(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)

16:05:29 <sandro> guus: busy agenda, expecting 75 minutes

Guus Schreiber: busy agenda, expecting 75 minutes

16:05:48 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

16:05:48 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

16:05:51 <sandro> topic: Admin

1. Admin

16:05:51 <pfps> minutes look OK

Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes look OK

16:05:51 <pfps> RESOLVED: minutes 27 Nov accepted

RESOLVED: minutes 27 Nov accepted

16:06:29 <sandro> gregg: Have the tests been moved into their final location?

Gregg Kellogg: Have the tests been moved into their final location?

16:06:41 <ivan> I di

Ivan Herman: I did

16:06:44 <ivan> s/di/did/
16:06:54 <AndyS> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2013/N-TriplesTests/

Andy Seaborne: e.g. http://www.w3.org/2013/N-TriplesTests/

16:07:02 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

16:07:31 <sandro> page now points: The test suite is at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/file/d2aa3c0cdec7/rdf-turtle/tests-nt.

page now points: The test suite is at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/file/d2aa3c0cdec7/rdf-turtle/tests-nt.

16:08:02 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:08:09 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

16:08:20 <sandro> guus: PLEASE contact your AC rep to vote on JSON-LD

Guus Schreiber: PLEASE contact your AC rep to vote on JSON-LD

16:08:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:08:31 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

16:08:31 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:08:32 <sandro> topic: CR Implementations

2. CR Implementations

16:08:41 <sandro> guus: rdf-mt is being challening

Guus Schreiber: rdf-mt is being challening

16:09:06 <sandro> pfps: We've had two sort-of responses, one from Olivier and one from Michael Schneider

Peter Patel-Schneider: We've had two sort-of responses, one from Olivier and one from Michael Schneider

16:09:35 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:09:35 <sandro> pfps: Olivier's Corese -- I looked at it -- doesn't produce the expected answer for 7 of the 42 tests.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Olivier's Corese -- I looked at it -- doesn't produce the expected answer for 7 of the 42 tests.

16:09:46 <gkellogg> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html

Gregg Kellogg: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html

16:09:51 <sandro> pfps: biggest reason is they don't do anything follows from a contradiction

Peter Patel-Schneider: biggest reason is they don't do anything follows from a contradiction

16:10:09 <sandro> pfps: I think we once decided not to test that.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I think we once decided not to test that.

16:10:26 <sandro> pfps: I suggest we change those tests to be directly a contradiction, instead of anything-follows-from

Peter Patel-Schneider: I suggest we change those tests to be directly a contradiction, instead of anything-follows-from

16:10:47 <sandro> pfps: containerMembershipProperties ... lots of systems don't do anything with them if they don't occur in the input

Peter Patel-Schneider: containerMembershipProperties ... lots of systems don't do anything with them if they don't occur in the input

16:11:01 <sandro> pfps: A solution is to just put it in the input as a crutch.

Peter Patel-Schneider: A solution is to just put it in the input as a crutch.

16:11:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:11:16 <sandro> pfps: Also, something with integer and string, I still need to look into that.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Also, something with integer and string, I still need to look into that.

16:11:29 <sandro> guus: How many of the 7 would you consider real failures

Guus Schreiber: How many of the 7 would you consider real failures

16:11:34 <sandro> pfps: None.

Peter Patel-Schneider: None.

16:11:46 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

16:12:27 <sandro> pfps: Very few people actually implement "entailment" per se; instead the implement a sort of "completion" thing.   So they'll detect contractions, but they wont implement a couple of the structural rules, since those are done at the matching phase at the end

Peter Patel-Schneider: Very few people actually implement "entailment" per se; instead the implement a sort of "completion" thing. So they'll detect contractions, but they wont implement a couple of the structural rules, since those are done at the matching phase at the end

16:12:45 <sandro> pfps: Oh, maybe one.  Inclusion detection between integer and string.   That may be a failure.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Oh, maybe one. Inclusion detection between integer and string. That may be a failure.

16:13:25 <sandro> pfps: If you say integer is a subclass of string, that

Peter Patel-Schneider: If you say integer is a subclass of string, that

16:13:37 <sandro> pfps: If you say integer is a subclass of string, that's false, and Corese doesn't detect that.

Peter Patel-Schneider: If you say integer is a subclass of string, that's false, and Corese doesn't detect that.

16:13:45 <sandro> pfps: I need to ping Olivier back a little more.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I need to ping Olivier back a little more.

16:14:02 <sandro> pfps: There was an error in the manifest that I corrected.

Peter Patel-Schneider: There was an error in the manifest that I corrected.

16:14:04 <markus> shouldn't the report at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html show the content of the turtle files? I just get "....ttl not loaded" everywhere; gkellogg !?

Markus Lanthaler: shouldn't the report at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html show the content of the turtle files? I just get "....ttl not loaded" everywhere; gkellogg !?

16:14:33 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

16:15:40 <PatH> FWIW, XSD says integers aren't strings.

Patrick Hayes: FWIW, XSD says integers aren't strings.

16:16:23 <sandro> pfps: I sent personal messages to the people I thought were appropriate, but haven't gotten encouraging responses.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I sent personal messages to the people I thought were appropriate, but haven't gotten encouraging responses.

16:16:24 <PatH> OK, neveeerrrrr miiind.

Patrick Hayes: OK, neveeerrrrr miiind.

16:16:50 <sandro> sandro: maybe me, or the chairs, should try contacting them as well?

Sandro Hawke: maybe me, or the chairs, should try contacting them as well?

16:17:05 <sandro> pfps: Maybe they're working on them.   :-)

Peter Patel-Schneider: Maybe they're working on them. :-)

16:17:20 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:17:53 <PatH> tried jos deRoo?

Patrick Hayes: tried jos de Roo?

16:18:11 <ivan> s/deRoo/de Roo/
16:18:48 <sandro> sandro: What about Mike Dean & associated Silk folks?

Sandro Hawke: What about Mike Dean & associated Silk folks?

16:19:38 <PatH> Parliament doing RDF reasoning sounds rather unlikely to me.

Patrick Hayes: Parliament doing RDF reasoning sounds rather unlikely to me.

16:20:19 <ericP> PatH, jos would probably use euler, which is actually two cwm clones, one implemented in C# and the other in prolog

Eric Prud'hommeaux: PatH, jos would probably use euler, which is actually two cwm clones, one implemented in C# and the other in prolog

16:20:38 <PatH> i think it would be conforming to simply report contradictions as an error.

Patrick Hayes: i think it would be conforming to simply report contradictions as an error.

16:20:50 <ericP> PatH, does prolog implement "everything follows from a contradiction"?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: PatH, does prolog implement "everything follows from a contradiction"?

16:21:05 <sandro> pfps: A rule based system can do all of these except Everything Follows from a Contradiction

Peter Patel-Schneider: A rule based system can do all of these except Everything Follows from a Contradiction

16:21:25 <PatH> EricP, if you mean, does it actually draw those ocnclusions, no.

Patrick Hayes: EricP, if you mean, does it actually draw those ocnclusions, no.

16:21:38 <sandro> sandro: yes, let's change the everything-follows-from-a-contradiction

Sandro Hawke: yes, let's change the everything-follows-from-a-contradiction

16:21:47 <sandro> sandro: WHat about Jan Weilemaker?

Sandro Hawke: WHat about Jan Weilemaker?

16:21:54 <PatH> YOu can map it all into a FOL style syntax.

Patrick Hayes: YOu can map it all into a FOL style syntax.

16:22:05 <sandro> pfps: Oxford is close, except for predicate variables

Peter Patel-Schneider: Oxford is close, except for predicate variables

16:22:36 <sandro> pfps: If you map to FOL it's not triples any more

Peter Patel-Schneider: If you map to FOL it's not triples any more

16:23:10 <sandro> pfps: whatever representation, it needs to handle variables in its predicate position.

Peter Patel-Schneider: whatever representation, it needs to handle variables in its predicate position.

16:23:23 <sandro> I use one predicate: rdf(s,p,o)

I use one predicate: rdf(s,p,o)

16:24:02 <sandro> pfps: The Oxford folks are saying that's not as efficient.

Peter Patel-Schneider: The Oxford folks are saying that's not as efficient.

16:24:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: Change the semantics tests to use an explicit contradiction marker, in the test manifest, instead of having everything following from a contradiction.

PROPOSED: Change the semantics tests to use an explicit contradiction marker, in the test manifest, instead of having everything following from a contradiction.

16:25:00 <PatH> I think they should be required to explode, but this MUST be interpreted as an error condition.

Patrick Hayes: I think they should be required to explode, but this MUST be interpreted as an error condition.

16:25:05 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:25:11 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

16:25:13 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:25:13 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:25:14 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:25:18 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

16:25:18 <sandro> +1

+1

16:25:19 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:25:19 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:25:22 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

16:25:22 <markus> +1

Markus Lanthaler: +1

16:25:31 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:25:33 <sandro> RESOLVED: Change the semantics tests to use an explicit contradiction marker, in the test manifest, instead of having everything following from a contradiction.

RESOLVED: Change the semantics tests to use an explicit contradiction marker, in the test manifest, instead of having everything following from a contradiction.

16:25:50 <sandro> pfps: I'll make those changes and talk to Olivier about re-running his stuff.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll make those changes and talk to Olivier about re-running his stuff.

16:26:52 <sandro> sandro:I think we need to resolve PR a week from today.

Sandro Hawke: I think we need to resolve PR a week from today.

16:27:20 <sandro> guus: We made our lives difficult with semantics tests.

Guus Schreiber: We made our lives difficult with semantics tests.

16:27:48 <PatH> Even with the 2004 semantics, RDFS allows contradictions. What was done with such tests then?

Patrick Hayes: Even with the 2004 semantics, RDFS allows contradictions. What was done with such tests then?

16:28:01 <sandro> pfps: I'll send contact list to chairs

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll send contact list to chairs

16:28:13 <sandro> guus: We'll try to keep track of them over the coming weeks.

Guus Schreiber: We'll try to keep track of them over the coming weeks.

16:28:21 <sandro> topic: Syntax CRs

3. Syntax CRs

16:28:40 <sandro> gregg: Got result from Dave Backet, who is NOT doing TriG

Gregg Kellogg: Got result from Dave Backet, who is NOT doing TriG

16:29:16 <sandro> gregg: We have 2 impls for N-Quads and TriG   (Jena and Ruby RDF) and 3 for NTriples,  with raptor.

Gregg Kellogg: We have 2 impls for N-Quads and TriG (Jena and Ruby RDF) and 3 for NTriples, with raptor.

16:29:40 <sandro> guus: So all four languages are fine, as far as exit criteria

Guus Schreiber: So all four languages are fine, as far as exit criteria

16:29:55 <sandro> guus: All impl reports up to date?

Guus Schreiber: All impl reports up to date?

16:30:03 <sandro> gregg: small update to N-Triples

Gregg Kellogg: small update to N-Triples

16:30:20 <sandro> guus: Excellent.

Guus Schreiber: Excellent.

16:30:53 <sandro> eric: Are Turtle parsers N-Triples parsers?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Are Turtle parsers N-Triples parsers?

16:31:05 <sandro> gregg: Not really, because of the Negative Syntax tests.

Gregg Kellogg: Not really, because of the Negative Syntax tests.

16:31:50 <sandro> guus: So our only CR-exit concern is rdf-mt

Guus Schreiber: So our only CR-exit concern is rdf-mt

16:32:01 <sandro> topic: CR Comments

4. CR Comments

16:32:30 <sandro> guus: It looks like Turtle are all resolved, yes?

Guus Schreiber: It looks like Turtle are all resolved, yes?

16:32:31 <sandro> ericP: Yes.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Yes.

16:32:59 <sandro> guus: Proposal from Andy on closing 4 TriGe issues.   Okay?

Guus Schreiber: Proposal from Andy on closing 4 TriGe issues. Okay?

16:33:34 <Guus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html

Guus Schreiber: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html

16:34:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: close issue-172 issue-173 issue-174 issue-175 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html

PROPOSED: close ISSUE-172 ISSUE-173 ISSUE-174 ISSUE-175 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html

16:34:24 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

16:34:32 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:34:33 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:34:40 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

16:34:49 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

16:34:53 <sandro> andy: They've all been accepted by the commenters, details in issue writeups

Andy Seaborne: They've all been accepted by the commenters, details in issue writeups

16:34:54 <sandro> +1

+1

16:34:54 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:34:58 <markus> +1

Markus Lanthaler: +1

16:35:04 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

16:35:05 <sandro> RESOLVED: close issue-172 issue-173 issue-174 issue-175 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html

RESOLVED: close ISSUE-172 ISSUE-173 ISSUE-174 ISSUE-175 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html

16:35:40 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:35:46 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:36:18 <sandro> guus: Need handling of comments on N-triples and N-Quads.   Maybe we need another editor, since Gavin hasn't been doing it.

Guus Schreiber: Need handling of comments on N-triples and N-Quads. Maybe we need another editor, since Gavin hasn't been doing it.

16:36:31 <sandro> andy: If necessary

Andy Seaborne: If necessary

16:36:39 <sandro> andy: Okay, I'll do it.

Andy Seaborne: Okay, I'll do it.

16:36:57 <sandro> guus: Thanks!

Guus Schreiber: Thanks!

16:36:57 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:36:57 <davidwood> Thanks, Andy

David Wood: Thanks, Andy

16:37:10 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

16:37:15 <sandro> guus: Comments on escape characters?   Real issue?

Guus Schreiber: Comments on escape characters? Real issue?

16:37:24 <sandro> andy: I don't think so, but I haven't looked closely yet.

Andy Seaborne: I don't think so, but I haven't looked closely yet.

16:37:48 <sandro> andy: It's editorial, "Would you clarify..."

Andy Seaborne: It's editorial, "Would you clarify..."

16:37:56 <sandro> guus: I repled to David Booth today

Guus Schreiber: I replied to David Booth today

16:38:05 <sandro> guus: Maybe we should send some reminders

Guus Schreiber: Maybe we should send some reminders

16:38:19 <sandro> guus: IRIs and globals, and M. Schn.

Guus Schreiber: IRIs and globals, and M. Schn.

16:38:25 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:38:52 <sandro> action: guus send reminders for comments 1 and 2

ACTION: guus send reminders for comments 1 and 2

16:38:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-331 - Send reminders for comments 1 and 2 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-12-11].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-331 - Send reminders for comments 1 and 2 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-12-11].

16:38:53 <PatH> I think we already sent a response to mIchael, no?

Patrick Hayes: I think we already sent a response to mIchael, no?

16:39:12 <sandro> (the leftovers from Last Call)

(the leftovers from Last Call)

16:39:15 <PatH> Ah, ok.

Patrick Hayes: Ah, ok.

16:39:18 <sandro> guus: Just reminders.

Guus Schreiber: Just reminders.

16:39:54 <sandro> guus: Please start getting your documents in order for Proposed Recommendation.

Guus Schreiber: Please start getting your documents in order for Proposed Recommendation.

16:40:03 <PatH> What needs to be done?

Patrick Hayes: What needs to be done?

16:40:09 <AndyS> CR #13 is a little more than editorial.

Andy Seaborne: CR #13 is a little more than editorial.

16:40:17 <sandro> guus: Document is fine, aside from Boiler Plate?

Guus Schreiber: Document is fine, aside from Boiler Plate?

16:40:29 <sandro> pfps: Yes.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Yes.

16:40:39 <sandro> markus: Section on Literals, maybe.

Markus Lanthaler: Section on Literals, maybe.

16:41:16 <sandro> davidwood: Section at the bottom on differences is Way Out Of Date.   I propose cutting it and instead having a pointer to the What's New Note.

David Wood: Section at the bottom on differences is Way Out Of Date. I propose cutting it and instead having a pointer to the What's New Note.

16:41:34 <sandro> guus: Turtle document status?

Guus Schreiber: Turtle document status?

16:41:36 <Souri> s/repled/replied/
16:41:38 <ericP> ack me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me

16:41:49 <sandro> ericP: I believe the document is in order.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I believe the document is in order.

16:42:05 <davidwood> Concepts Appendix A is out of date and should be removed in favor of the What's New note.

David Wood: Concepts Appendix A is out of date and should be removed in favor of the What's New note.

16:42:11 <sandro> guus: Schema and XML later

Guus Schreiber: Schema and XML later

16:42:14 <AndyS> q-

Andy Seaborne: q-

16:44:09 <sandro> guus: decision on 11th or 18th.  Hm.

Guus Schreiber: decision on 11th or 18th. Hm.

16:44:46 <sandro> guus: Schema is coming along and pretty good.

Guus Schreiber: Schema is coming along and pretty good.

16:45:43 <PatH> I trust you. Guus.

Patrick Hayes: I trust you. Guus.

16:45:56 <sandro> ( Note Publication Moratorium: starting 18 December 2013 through 1 January 2014 )

( Note Publication Moratorium: starting 18 December 2013 through 1 January 2014 )

16:47:17 <PatH> months????

Patrick Hayes: months????

16:47:52 <PatH> <strangled noises />

Patrick Hayes: <strangled noises />

16:47:55 <sandro> guus: I put my name in the Schema acknowledgement sections, but didnt list myself as an editor.

Guus Schreiber: I put my name in the Schema acknowledgement sections, but didnt list myself as an editor.

16:48:07 <PatH> OK

Patrick Hayes: OK

16:48:52 <sandro> guus: I removed the schema appendix.

Guus Schreiber: I removed the schema appendix.

16:49:05 <sandro> guus: it was a courtesy, not it's a discourtesy,.

Guus Schreiber: it was a courtesy, not it's a discourtesy,.

16:49:50 <sandro> sandro: Title.   Ugh.  Oh well.

Sandro Hawke: Title. Ugh. Oh well.

16:49:56 <sandro> topic: RDF/XML

5. RDF/XML

16:50:40 <sandro> guus: Fabien isn't here.   THere's a day of editorial work to day.    I'll might do it if Fabien can't.     We didn't promise it in any case.

Guus Schreiber: Fabien isn't here. THere's a day of editorial work to day. I'll might do it if Fabien can't. We didn't promise it in any case.

16:50:48 <sandro> topic: Namespace Documents

6. Namespace Documents

16:50:54 <davidwood> NO

David Wood: NO

16:50:57 <davidwood> :)

David Wood: :)

16:51:28 <pchampin> I'm buying!

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I'm buying!

16:53:34 <sandro> sandro: My sense is that the nsdoc is NOT the WG's responsibility, but I'll definitely ask for WG review.

Sandro Hawke: My sense is that the nsdoc is NOT the WG's responsibility, but I'll definitely ask for WG review.

16:53:45 <sandro> guus: Sounds okay.

Guus Schreiber: Sounds okay.

16:53:57 <sandro> topic: Dataset Semantics

7. Dataset Semantics

16:54:21 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

16:54:26 <sandro> guus: Pat, what about your reviews?

Guus Schreiber: Pat, what about your reviews?

16:54:55 <sandro> pat: I think the document is basically okay, although it could use some editorial work and polish.

Patrick Hayes: I think the document is basically okay, although it could use some editorial work and polish.

16:55:30 <sandro> guus: Plan is to publish in December and then republish at Rec time.

Guus Schreiber: Plan is to publish in December and then republish at Rec time.

16:55:49 <sandro> antoine: I've read the comments; I'll reply soon.  Some discussion to do.

Antoine Zimmermann: I've read the comments; I'll reply soon. Some discussion to do.

16:55:59 <sandro> antoine: Most of them should be fine.

Antoine Zimmermann: Most of them should be fine.

16:56:22 <sandro> guus: You CAN leave Open Issue in the document.   It doesn't need to be consensus in this version.

Guus Schreiber: You CAN leave Open Issue in the document. It doesn't need to be consensus in this version.

16:56:31 <AZ> s/an:/AZ:/

Antoine Zimmermann: s/an:/AZ:/ (warning: replacement failed)

16:56:56 <sandro> sandro: That suggests we'll all be doing RDF WG stuff during January

Sandro Hawke: That suggests we'll all be doing RDF WG stuff during January

16:56:59 <sandro> pat: That's life.

Patrick Hayes: That's life.

16:57:23 <sandro> guus: Please go ahead without my review.

Guus Schreiber: Please go ahead without my review.

16:57:27 <sandro> topic: Primer

8. Primer

16:57:55 <sandro> guus: Very extensive review from Pat.    Ongoing discussion.   Figures are not quite right yet.

Guus Schreiber: Very extensive review from Pat. Ongoing discussion. Figures are not quite right yet.

16:58:07 <yvesr> (figures should be there this evening)

Yves Raimond: (figures should be there this evening)

16:58:15 <sandro> .. I've adopted MOST of Pat's comments.    I hope you like the rephrasing about Statements, Pat.

.. I've adopted MOST of Pat's comments. I hope you like the rephrasing about Statements, Pat.

16:58:21 <PatH> i need to go over the latest version.

Patrick Hayes: i need to go over the latest version.

16:58:24 <sandro> .. main thing left is how we talk about Multiple Graphs.

.. main thing left is how we talk about Multiple Graphs.

16:58:46 <sandro> PatH: I'm not up on the latest email from Guus.

Patrick Hayes: I'm not up on the latest email from Guus.

16:59:16 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

16:59:29 <sandro> guus: On Multiple Graphs:    <reading>

Guus Schreiber: On Multiple Graphs: <reading>

17:00:07 <tbaker> what is the time-frame for review and revision of the Primer?

Thomas Baker: what is the time-frame for review and revision of the Primer?

17:00:23 <sandro> pfps: A Literal is a Resource.

Patrick Hayes: A Literal is a Resource.

17:01:10 <yvesr> s/pfps/PatH
17:01:27 <sandro> sandro: Literals and IRI are types of Terms; they denote Resources

Sandro Hawke: Literals and IRI are types of Terms; they denote Resources

17:01:33 <sandro> Pat: Right.

Patrick Hayes: Right.

17:04:04 <sandro> guus: I'm thinking about publishing soon so we can do a revision for Rec.

Guus Schreiber: I'm thinking about publishing soon so we can do a revision for Rec.

17:04:15 <sandro> Pat: I'm still not happy about the "Meta" stuff.

Patrick Hayes: I'm still not happy about the "Meta" stuff.

17:04:29 <sandro> guus: We'll put in some warning notes about that.

Guus Schreiber: We'll put in some warning notes about that.

17:05:41 <sandro> ivan, I don't agree

ivan, I don't agree

17:05:58 <yvesr> so who should?

Yves Raimond: so who should?

17:06:44 <yvesr> PatH: we had an explicit requirement to add a provenance example to the primer

Yves Raimond: PatH, we had an explicit requirement to add a provenance example to the primer

17:06:53 <yvesr> s/PatH:/PatH,
17:07:30 <sandro> pat: THe Primery must say: ONLY DO THIS IF YOU HAVE OUT-OF-BAND AGREEMENT, YOU CAN'T DO THIS ON THE OPEN WEB.

Patrick Hayes: THe Primery must say: ONLY DO THIS IF YOU HAVE OUT-OF-BAND AGREEMENT, YOU CAN'T DO THIS ON THE OPEN WEB.

17:07:48 <sandro> markus: Even with that warning, people will still do it.

Markus Lanthaler: Even with that warning, people will still do it.

17:08:20 <sandro> pat: I'm hearning people who think we're giving them semantics.

Patrick Hayes: I'm hearning people who think we're giving them semantics.

17:08:57 <ivan> can we refer to Antoine's document in the primer?

Ivan Herman: can we refer to Antoine's document in the primer?

17:09:13 <yvesr> sandro, and which are the two different ways?

Yves Raimond: sandro, and which are the two different ways?

17:09:15 <Arnaud> is the primer the place for airing this kind of dirty laundry??

Arnaud Le Hors: is the primer the place for airing this kind of dirty laundry??

17:09:29 <PatH> +1 Arnaud

Patrick Hayes: +1 Arnaud

17:09:59 <sandro> It's the place for telling people things they need to know, yes?

It's the place for telling people things they need to know, yes?

17:10:02 <ivan> zakim, unmute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me

17:10:02 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted

17:10:05 <sandro> and everyone wants to know.

and everyone wants to know.

17:10:52 <sandro> Yves, the two ways are graph-name-is-URL-for-that-content and graph-name-denotes-that-content.

Yves, the two ways are graph-name-is-URL-for-that-content and graph-name-denotes-that-content.

17:11:12 <yvesr> Guus, +999

Yves Raimond: Guus, +999

17:11:16 <sandro> guus: It'd be good to have provenance example in primer.

Guus Schreiber: It'd be good to have provenance example in primer.

17:11:53 <sandro> guus: And weird to have a big feature of RDF that's not explained in Primer.

Guus Schreiber: And weird to have a big feature of RDF that's not explained in Primer.

17:12:19 <PatH> i think we should not have a provenance example in the primer. RDF as specified does not support provenance.

Patrick Hayes: i think we should not have a provenance example in the primer. RDF as specified does not support provenance.

17:12:19 <sandro> ivan: The Provenance example is usable only if you pick one of Antoine's semantics.

Ivan Herman: The Provenance example is usable only if you pick one of Antoine's semantics.

17:12:36 <Zakim> -David_Wood

Zakim IRC Bot: -David_Wood

17:12:53 <sandro> markus: What about Sandro's Direct Datasets.    Can we use that?

Markus Lanthaler: What about Sandro's Direct Datasets. Can we use that?

17:13:04 <sandro> ivan: That's what Antoine's document does.

Ivan Herman: That's what Antoine's document does.

17:13:36 <sandro> pat: But Antoine's document doesn't ....

Patrick Hayes: But Antoine's document doesn't ....

17:13:44 <sandro> markus: Bring them inband.

Markus Lanthaler: Bring them inband.

17:14:40 <sandro> sandro: ANyone can define the terms

Sandro Hawke: ANyone can define the terms

17:14:56 <sandro> pat: Antoine's spec clarifies several options.

Patrick Hayes: Antoine's spec clarifies several options.

17:15:25 <AZ> +1 to Pat here

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 to Pat here

17:15:41 <sandro> pat: But not enough to really tell you how to use.

Patrick Hayes: But not enough to really tell you how to use.

17:16:29 <sandro> sandro: How about if the Primer says "We've provided syntax, but not enough semantics to make them useful, so stay tuned."

Sandro Hawke: How about if the Primer says "We've provided syntax, but not enough semantics to make them useful, so stay tuned."

17:16:39 <sandro> pat: Yes.

Patrick Hayes: Yes.

17:16:52 <sandro> pat: So give an example that doesn't use metadata.

Patrick Hayes: So give an example that doesn't use metadata.

17:17:13 <sandro> guus: But we have this requirement of a Provenance Example.

Guus Schreiber: But we have this requirement of a Provenance Example.

17:17:29 <sandro> guus: Someone mail me an example?

Guus Schreiber: Someone mail me an example?

17:17:40 <sandro> guus: We promised it to Prov WG

Guus Schreiber: We promised it to Prov WG

17:18:31 <sandro> guus: They do the stuff in the nanopublications example.

Guus Schreiber: They do the stuff in the nanopublications example.

17:18:51 <Zakim> -pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps

17:19:22 <sandro> guus: Hopefully we can decide on two notes next week; maybe PR for syntax specs.

Guus Schreiber: Hopefully we can decide on two notes next week; maybe PR for syntax specs.

17:19:24 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

17:19:25 <Zakim> -??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P21

17:19:25 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

17:19:26 <sandro> ADJOURNED

ADJOURNED

17:19:27 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

17:19:28 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

17:19:28 <Zakim> -TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed

17:19:30 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

17:19:31 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

17:19:32 <Zakim> -markus

Zakim IRC Bot: -markus

17:19:34 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

17:19:36 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

17:19:38 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

17:20:03 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting

Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting

17:20:03 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

17:20:03 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, Sandro, AZ, David_Wood, Ivan, yvesr, TallTed, markus, gkellogg, pchampin, ericP, zwu2, [IPcaller],

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, Sandro, AZ, David_Wood, Ivan, yvesr, TallTed, markus, gkellogg, pchampin, ericP, zwu2, [IPcaller],

17:20:06 <Zakim> ... PatH, Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: ... PatH, Arnaud

17:20:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

17:20:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

17:20:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

17:20:12 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

17:20:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: guus send reminders for comments 1 and 2 [1]

ACTION: guus send reminders for comments 1 and 2 [1]

17:20:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-irc#T16-38-52

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-irc#T16-38-52



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