edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 24 April 2013

Seen
Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Ted Thibodeau, Thomas Baker, Zhe Wu
Scribe
Gavin Carothers
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Accept minutes of the 17 April Telecon, https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-17 link
  2. Close ISSUE-107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0115.html, up until "Note:" (We're not characterizing the relationship to RDF 1.0) link
  3. Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html link
  4. Accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html, changing "is an ill-typed literal, but is syntactically permissable." to "is an ill-typed literal". link
Topics
14:58:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-rdf-wg-irc

14:58:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:58:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:58:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

14:58:20 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:20 <trackbot> Date: 24 April 2013
14:59:32 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

14:59:41 <Zakim> +GavinC

Zakim IRC Bot: +GavinC

15:00:39 <Zakim> +Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus

15:00:43 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:00:58 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:00:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, OpenLink_Software

15:00:59 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:01:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, TallTed, gavinc, SteveH, yvesr, Arnaud, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, manu, manu1, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, TallTed, gavinc, SteveH, yvesr, Arnaud, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, manu, manu1, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

15:01:00 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it

15:01:00 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:01:01 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

15:01:26 <Zakim> +pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps

15:01:55 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.04.24

Ted Thibodeau: TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.04.24

15:02:16 <Zakim> +AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ

15:02:42 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

15:02:47 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P16

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P16

15:02:48 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

15:03:13 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:03:39 <gavinc> +1 to using Futures

Gavin Carothers: +1 to using Futures

15:04:19 <Zakim> +[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice]

15:04:32 <gavinc> scribe: gavinc

(Scribe set to Gavin Carothers)

15:04:37 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, [GVoice] is me

15:04:37 <Zakim> +ericP; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it

15:04:43 <gavinc> gkellogg: we may need another last call for JSON-LD

Gregg Kellogg: we may need another last call for JSON-LD

15:04:55 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:04:59 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

15:05:13 <sandro> -1 to that, if we can find any possible alternative.

Sandro Hawke: -1 to that, if we can find any possible alternative.

15:05:18 <gavinc> gkellogg: only thing worth spending some time on, is perhaps WHATWG DOM spec as normative reference?

Gregg Kellogg: only thing worth spending some time on, is perhaps WHATWG DOM spec as normative reference?

15:05:21 <sandro> (and I think we can)

Sandro Hawke: (and I think we can)

15:06:04 <patH> I may have to leave slightly early today.

Patrick Hayes: I may have to leave slightly early today.

15:06:09 <gavinc> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:06:40 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:06:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, TallTed (muted), pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Sandro, ericP, PatH, Arnaud (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, TallTed (muted), pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Sandro, ericP, PatH, Arnaud (muted)

15:06:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see zwu2, patH, pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, TallTed, gavinc, SteveH, yvesr, Arnaud, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, manu, manu1, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zwu2, patH, pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, TallTed, gavinc, SteveH, yvesr, Arnaud, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, manu, manu1, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

15:07:00 <gavinc> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of the 17 April Telecon, https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-17

PROPOSED: Accept minutes of the 17 April Telecon, https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-17

15:07:03 <pfps> minutes look fine

Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes look fine

15:07:07 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aaaa

15:07:13 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Accept minutes of the 17 April Telecon, https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-17

RESOLVED: Accept minutes of the 17 April Telecon, https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-17

15:07:17 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me

Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me

15:07:18 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it

15:07:24 <gavinc> subtopic: Action item review

1.1. Action item review

15:07:25 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

15:07:25 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

15:07:51 <gavinc> Guus: Two by pfps, one by patH. Close them

Guus Schreiber: Two by pfps, one by patH. Close them

15:08:03 <gavinc> CLOSE ACTION-252

CLOSE ACTION-252

15:08:03 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-252 Propose wording in concepts to reflect blank node semantics changes.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-252 Propose wording in concepts to reflect blank node semantics changes.

15:08:05 <gavinc> CLOSE ACTION-253

CLOSE ACTION-253

15:08:05 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-253 Propose changes for what Concepts says about ill-typed literals.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-253 Propose changes for what Concepts says about ill-typed literals.

15:08:07 <gavinc> CLOSE ACTION-254

CLOSE ACTION-254

15:08:07 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-254 Propose solution for ISSUE-118.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-254 Propose solution for ISSUE-118.

15:08:39 <pfps> zakim, who is on th ephone

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is on th ephone

15:08:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on th ephone', pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on th ephone', pfps

15:08:46 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:08:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, TallTed (muted), pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Sandro, ericP, PatH, Arnaud (muted), zwu2 (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, TallTed (muted), pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Sandro, ericP, PatH, Arnaud (muted), zwu2 (muted)

15:08:58 <gavinc> Close ACTION-243

Close ACTION-243

15:08:58 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-243 Provide license text, asking submitters of comments 21 and 28 if they are willing to share their submitted tests with no IP restrictions and under the proposed license..

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-243 Provide license text, asking submitters of comments 21 and 28 if they are willing to share their submitted tests with no IP restrictions and under the proposed license..

15:09:08 <gavinc> topic:  Issues related to Concepts and Semantics
15:09:14 <gavinc> ISSUE-107?

ISSUE-107?

15:09:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open

15:09:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107

15:09:24 <ericP> Zakim, who's muted?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, who's muted?

15:09:24 <Zakim> I see TallTed, Arnaud, zwu2 muted

Zakim IRC Bot: I see TallTed, Arnaud, zwu2 muted

15:09:25 <gavinc> subtopic: Revised definition of blank nodes

2.1. Revised definition of blank nodes

15:09:45 <gavinc> pfps: Fixing up blank nodes, situation hasn't changed in a while. semantics is terse

Peter Patel-Schneider: Fixing up blank nodes, situation hasn't changed in a while. semantics is terse

15:09:53 <gavinc> ... concepts is very sparse on blank nodes as well

... concepts is very sparse on blank nodes as well

15:10:07 <gavinc> ... proposal is add just enough to cover RDF graphs sharing blank nodes

... proposal is add just enough to cover RDF graphs sharing blank nodes

15:10:08 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

15:10:16 <gavinc> ... semantics refers to concepts saying they can happen

... semantics refers to concepts saying they can happen

15:10:23 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:10:38 <gavinc> ... concepts has to say some stuff, they only can show up if the syntax says they do

... concepts has to say some stuff, they only can show up if the syntax says they do

15:10:39 <Zakim> +davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood

15:10:51 <TallTed> there appear to be some wording issues -- the difference between "sharing blank nodes" and "sharing blank node identifiers" is significant

Ted Thibodeau: there appear to be some wording issues -- the difference between "sharing blank nodes" and "sharing blank node identifiers" is significant

15:10:54 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:11:12 <gavinc> ack AZ

ack AZ

15:11:32 <gavinc> AZ: Had some issues with the wording of the note pfps wants to add

Antoine Zimmermann: Had some issues with the wording of the note pfps wants to add

15:11:39 <Zakim> +[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice]

15:11:50 <Guus> AZ's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0137.html

Guus Schreiber: AZ's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0137.html

15:12:09 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

15:13:06 <gavinc> AZ: RDF 2005 Does not define only merge, also says you can do union

Antoine Zimmermann: RDF 2004 Does not define only merge, also says you can do union

15:13:17 <Guus> ack AZ

Guus Schreiber: ack AZ

15:13:24 <gavinc> pfps: I suppose that the documents...

Peter Patel-Schneider: I suppose that the documents...

15:13:26 <TallTed> s/2005/2004/
15:13:42 <gavinc> patH: is AZ objecting to the email or the text?

Patrick Hayes: is AZ objecting to the email or the text?

15:13:53 <gavinc> ... sounds like the email

... sounds like the email

15:14:00 <gavinc> AZ: Yes.

Antoine Zimmermann: Yes.

15:14:27 <gavinc> pfps: I suppose AZ is technically correct, but I don't think that's how people read the documents

Peter Patel-Schneider: I suppose AZ is technically correct, but I don't think that's how people read the documents

15:14:42 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:14:51 <gavinc> ... in RDF 2004 if you combine two graphs your supposed to standardize apart any shared blank node

... in RDF 2004 if you combine two graphs your supposed to standardize apart any shared blank node

15:15:20 <gavinc> ... I think we now need to say that it's fine that RDF graphs can share blank nodes, and they will be the same blank node. And in other cases they won't share blank nodes.

... I think we now need to say that it's fine that RDF graphs can share blank nodes, and they will be the same blank node. And in other cases they won't share blank nodes.

15:15:33 <TallTed> the trouble with "underlying assumptions" is that they often don't get written into the spec ... because they're just "understood to be there"

Ted Thibodeau: the trouble with "underlying assumptions" is that they often don't get written into the spec ... because they're just "understood to be there"

15:15:34 <gavinc> AZ: This is based on your understanding of what people understand of the specification

Antoine Zimmermann: This is based on your understanding of what people understand of the specification

15:15:58 <gavinc> ... there is a paragraph that describes union vs. merge.

... there is a paragraph that describes union vs. merge.

15:16:50 <gavinc> Guus: AZ your mainly objecting to how we talk about RDF 2004, not the proposed text.

Guus Schreiber: AZ your mainly objecting to how we talk about RDF 2004, not the proposed text.

15:17:01 <gavinc> AZ: Yes.

Antoine Zimmermann: Yes.

15:17:34 <sandro> +1 lets agree to on the new plan, and then figure out how to describe what the change is/was, if any.

Sandro Hawke: +1 lets agree to on the new plan, and then figure out how to describe what the change is/was, if any.

15:17:47 <gavinc> AZ: The way to clarify bnode scropes, is have something that talks about the scope of bnodes.

Antoine Zimmermann: The way to clarify bnode scropes, is have something that talks about the scope of bnodes.

15:17:51 <gavinc> +q

+q

15:18:26 <gavinc> Guus: If I read pfps message, it says this is the required changes to RDF semantics, and RDF concepts.

Guus Schreiber: If I read pfps message, it says this is the required changes to RDF semantics, and RDF concepts.

15:18:27 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_datasetUnion

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_datasetUnion

15:19:36 <gavinc> pfps: There is still an issue with the relationship between RDF 2004 and RDF 1.1

Peter Patel-Schneider: There is still an issue with the relationship between RDF 2004 and RDF 1.1

15:19:51 <gavinc> ... this isn't part of what's being decided today

... this isn't part of what's being decided today

15:20:16 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:20:16 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted

15:21:14 <gavinc> -q

-q

15:21:29 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0115.html, up until "Note:"   (We're not characterizing the relationship to RDF 1.0)

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0115.html, up until "Note:" (We're not characterizing the relationship to RDF 1.0)

15:21:44 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:21:45 <gavinc> +1

+1

15:21:46 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

15:21:46 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

15:21:46 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:21:50 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

15:21:52 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:21:58 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

15:22:03 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:22:04 <patH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:22:08 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0115.html, up until "Note:"   (We're not characterizing the relationship to RDF 1.0)

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0115.html, up until "Note:" (We're not characterizing the relationship to RDF 1.0)

15:22:14 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

15:22:17 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

15:22:23 <sandro> close issue-107

Sandro Hawke: close ISSUE-107

15:22:23 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-107 Revised definition of blank nodes.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-107 Revised definition of blank nodes.

15:22:26 <AZ> (then, to replace what's in the note, I would like to see, in Concepts, something about bnode [identifiers] scope)

Antoine Zimmermann: (then, to replace what's in the note, I would like to see, in Concepts, something about bnode [identifiers] scope)

15:22:28 <pfps> ACTION pfps to edit Semantics per the previous proposal

Peter Patel-Schneider: ACTION pfps to edit Semantics per the previous proposal

15:22:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-255 - Edit Semantics per the previous proposal [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-05-01].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-255 - Edit Semantics per the previous proposal [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-05-01].

15:23:06 <gavinc> sandro: There is very clear evidence that graph nodes could be shared, and others who thought they couldn't

Sandro Hawke: There is very clear evidence that graph nodes could be shared, and others who thought they couldn't

15:23:07 <AZ> ok to say that there was an ambiguity (but not that it was assumed)

Antoine Zimmermann: ok to say that there was an ambiguity (but not that it was assumed)

15:24:01 <sandro> pat: Probably no one contemplated blank nodes could be coincidence by chance

Patrick Hayes: Probably no one contemplated blank nodes could be coincidence by chance [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:24:43 <gavinc> ACTION gavinc link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts

ACTION gavinc link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts

15:24:43 <trackbot> Error finding 'gavinc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding 'gavinc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

15:24:52 <gavinc> ACTION gcarothe link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts

ACTION gcarothe link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts

15:24:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-256 - Link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-05-01].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-256 - Link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-05-01].

15:25:22 <gavinc> ACTION davidwood add resolution of issue-107 to RDF Concepts

ACTION davidwood add resolution of ISSUE-107 to RDF Concepts

15:25:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-257 - Add resolution of issue-107 to RDF Concepts [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-257 - Add resolution of ISSUE-107 to RDF Concepts [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01].

15:25:29 <gavinc> subtopic: What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed?

2.2. What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed?

15:25:39 <gavinc> ISSUE-109?

ISSUE-109?

15:25:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-109 -- What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed? -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-109 -- What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed? -- open

15:25:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/109

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/109

15:25:52 <gavinc> Guus: Proposal from pfps  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html

Guus Schreiber: Proposal from pfps http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html

15:26:13 <gavinc> pfps: Illtyped literals do not denote, therefor an ill-typed literal is false

Peter Patel-Schneider: Illtyped literals do not denote, therefor an ill-typed literal is false

15:26:19 <sandro> pfps: ill typed literals do not denote, therefor any triple including such a literal is false in all interpretations.

Peter Patel-Schneider: ill typed literals do not denote, therefor any triple including such a literal is false in all interpretations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:26:20 <gavinc> ... requires a change to concepts

... requires a change to concepts

15:27:34 <gavinc> Proposed:  Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning.

15:27:55 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

15:27:56 <gavinc> PROPOSED:  Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html

15:27:56 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:27:56 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:27:58 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:27:58 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

15:27:59 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

15:28:01 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:28:04 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

15:28:04 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

15:28:07 <gavinc> +1

+1

15:28:17 <patH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:28:26 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

15:28:34 <gavinc> RESOLVED:  Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html

15:28:36 <sandro> close issue-109

Sandro Hawke: close ISSUE-109

15:28:36 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-109 What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed?.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-109 What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed?.

15:28:54 <gavinc> ACTION davidwood update RDF Concepts to reflect issue-109

ACTION davidwood update RDF Concepts to reflect ISSUE-109

15:28:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-258 - Update RDF Concepts to reflect issue-109 [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-258 - Update RDF Concepts to reflect ISSUE-109 [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01].

15:29:21 <gavinc> subtopic: xsd:string

2.3. xsd:string

15:29:30 <gavinc> issue-126?

ISSUE-126?

15:29:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-126 -- xsd:string -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-126 -- xsd:string -- open

15:29:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/126

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/126

15:30:03 <gavinc> pfps: xsd:string does not allow all unicode code points. it doesn't allow code point 0, ASCII null

Peter Patel-Schneider: xsd:string does not allow all unicode code points. it doesn't allow code point 0, ASCII null

15:30:21 <gavinc> ... technicaly this changes the status of literals that contain ASCII nulls

... technicaly this changes the status of literals that contain ASCII nulls

15:30:28 <davidwood> q+

David Wood: q+

15:30:33 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

15:30:57 <gavinc> ... any triple containing ASCII null, will now be ill typed and thus false.

... any triple containing ASCII null, will now be ill typed and thus false.

15:31:10 <gkellogg> "\u0000"^xsd:string is ill-typed

Gregg Kellogg: "\u0000"^xsd:string is ill-typed

15:31:10 <ericP> q+

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+

15:31:25 <gavinc> pfps: if your using ascii null, you should have your head exaimined

Peter Patel-Schneider: if your using ascii null, you should have your head exaimined

15:31:32 <Guus> ack davidwood

Guus Schreiber: ack davidwood

15:31:36 <gavinc> davidwood: good catch, thanks pfps

David Wood: good catch, thanks pfps

15:31:41 <davidwood> "Currently a literal with type

David Wood: "Currently a literal with type

15:31:41 <davidwood>      xsd:string containing the #x0 character is an ill-typed literal, but is

David Wood: xsd:string containing the #x0 character is an ill-typed literal, but is

15:31:41 <davidwood>      syntactically permissable."

David Wood: syntactically permissable."

15:31:42 <gavinc> ... however ...

... however ...

15:32:08 <gavinc> ... it isn't posible in any syntax

... it isn't posible in any syntax

15:32:33 <gavinc> pfps: Should be said that it is an acceptable RDF Literal

Peter Patel-Schneider: Should be said that it is an acceptable RDF Literal

15:32:59 <gavinc> davidwood: but it's not permissable in any syntax

David Wood: but it's not permissable in any syntax

15:33:20 <gavinc> pfps: can't pull nulls directly into Turtle, but can use escapes

Peter Patel-Schneider: can't pull nulls directly into Turtle, but can use escapes

15:33:21 <AZ> in any case, it is syntactically permissable per the abstract syntax

Antoine Zimmermann: in any case, it is syntactically permissable per the abstract syntax

15:33:40 <gavinc> pfps: something that turns into a null character can't be put into xsd:string

Peter Patel-Schneider: something that turns into a null character can't be put into xsd:string

15:33:44 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl has NULLs

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl has NULLs

15:34:21 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:34:24 <sandro> ack ericP

Sandro Hawke: ack ericP

15:34:24 <patH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:34:26 <ericP> inaudible?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: inaudible?

15:34:27 <ericP> weak

Eric Prud'hommeaux: weak

15:34:45 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

15:34:45 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made

15:34:57 <Guus> ack ericP

Guus Schreiber: ack ericP

15:35:07 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

15:35:07 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made

15:35:35 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

15:35:35 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made

15:36:01 <patH> q-

Patrick Hayes: q-

15:36:12 <gavinc> pfps: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl  produces a fine, but a semantics error

Peter Patel-Schneider: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl produces a fine, but a semantics error

15:36:22 <gavinc> pfps: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl  produces a fine RDF graph,  but a semantics error

Peter Patel-Schneider: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl produces a fine RDF graph, but a semantics error

15:36:29 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:36:32 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl  is a semantic error, not a syntax error.

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl is a semantic error, not a syntax error.

15:36:40 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:36:56 <gavinc> sandro: turtle has to accept it with another data type!

Sandro Hawke: turtle has to accept it with another data type!

15:37:18 <pfps> How about "is syntactically permissable" goes to "is acceptable as an RDF literal" as a replacement?

Peter Patel-Schneider: How about "is syntactically permissable" goes to "is acceptable as an RDF literal" as a replacement?

15:37:27 <gavinc> Guus: would like to move on to 118?

Guus Schreiber: would like to move on to 118?

15:38:01 <gavinc> davidwood: very few people are stupid enough to use ascii nulls in strings

David Wood: very few people are stupid enough to use ascii nulls in strings

15:38:05 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

15:38:31 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:39:26 <sandro> <sandro> does XML 5th Ed allow control characters like ctl-a and ctl-g ?

Sandro Hawke: <sandro> does XML 5th Ed allow control characters like ctl-a and ctl-g ?

15:39:26 <sandro> <liam> no

Sandro Hawke: <liam> no

15:39:41 <gavinc> ericP: I acctually raised this back in April

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I acctually raised this back in April

15:40:16 <gavinc> ... this is great if you have a PNG or something else with 0s in it.

... this is great if you have a PNG or something else with 0s in it.

15:42:00 <gavinc> ... the issue is that plain literal could/was used for a blobs, not just for strings in the past.

... the issue is that plain literal could/was used for a blobs, not just for strings in the past.

15:42:36 <gavinc> ... these things also exist in SPARQL update. So SPARQL Update works with 0s in what were plain literals

... these things also exist in SPARQL update. So SPARQL Update works with 0s in what were plain literals

15:42:47 <gavinc> sandro: You want a string of characters, and you also want a blob

Sandro Hawke: You want a string of characters, and you also want a blob

15:42:49 <gavinc> +q

+q

15:43:19 <gavinc> sandro: you often need two diffrent types, one for characters and one for blobs

Sandro Hawke: you often need two diffrent types, one for characters and one for blobs

15:43:26 <gavinc> ericP: They have to be characters

Eric Prud'hommeaux: They have to be characters

15:43:34 <Guus> ack gavinc

Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc

15:43:46 <davidwood> The concept of "character" has morphed significantly since Unicode...

David Wood: The concept of "character" has morphed significantly since Unicode...

15:44:05 <gavinc> +q

+q

15:44:19 <Guus> ack gavinc

Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc

15:45:00 <davidwood> To quote from unicode.org, "The very term character is rather ambiguous"

David Wood: To quote from unicode.org, "The very term character is rather ambiguous"

15:45:02 <sandro> gavin: +1 sandro, I don't think you want to treat the same datatype as both a bag of bits and a sequence of character.

Gavin Carothers: +1 sandro, I don't think you want to treat the same datatype as both a bag of bits and a sequence of character. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:45:23 <sandro> gavin: Eg Python

Gavin Carothers: Eg Python [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:45:31 <sandro> gkellogg: and Ruby and Perl

Gregg Kellogg: and Ruby and Perl [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:45:44 <sandro> ericP: I don't see how these apply.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I don't see how these apply. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:45:55 <sandro> davidwood: This is why the concept of a unicode code point was developed

David Wood: This is why the concept of a unicode code point was developed [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:46:10 <patH> +1 david

Patrick Hayes: +1 david

15:46:11 <sandro> gavinc: All the functions that apply are completely different.   Are you counting character or counting bytes...?

Gavin Carothers: All the functions that apply are completely different. Are you counting character or counting bytes...? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:46:55 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

15:47:17 <sandro> ericP: I don't believe any of these problems apply to us.    The problem in these languages is because you didn't know if it was a byte or a character.   In our situation, we can write each byte as a character.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I don't believe any of these problems apply to us. The problem in these languages is because you didn't know if it was a byte or a character. In our situation, we can write each byte as a character. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:47:24 <Guus> ack pfps

Guus Schreiber: ack pfps

15:47:31 <sandro> gavin: No!

Gavin Carothers: No! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:47:34 <sandro> pfps: No!

Peter Patel-Schneider: No! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:47:46 <sandro> pfps: Plain literals are unicode strings, not sequences of bits.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Plain literals are unicode strings, not sequences of bits. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:18 <sandro> pfps: Each element is a unicode codepoint - it's binary representation is not stated.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Each element is a unicode codepoint - it's binary representation is not stated. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:33 <sandro> eric: I have code points 0 to 255, it's a very natural encoding

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I have code points 0 to 255, it's a very natural encoding [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:43 <sandro> eric: It works fine!

Eric Prud'hommeaux: It works fine! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:46 <patH> use case = naughty programmer.

Patrick Hayes: use case = naughty programmer.

15:50:11 <sandro> pfps: little endian, etc, problems.

Peter Patel-Schneider: little endian, etc, problems. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:50:22 <sandro> eric: hex encoding has the same problem

Eric Prud'hommeaux: hex encoding has the same problem [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:50:24 <sandro> pfps: true

Peter Patel-Schneider: true [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:50:39 <sandro> issue-118?

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-118?

15:50:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-118 -- Simplifying datatype semantics -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-118 -- Simplifying datatype semantics -- open

15:50:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/118

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/118

15:51:24 <sandro> pfps: One way forward requires no change.     I'm happy for someone to argue the other way.

Peter Patel-Schneider: One way forward requires no change. I'm happy for someone to argue the other way. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:51:37 <sandro> Guus, it's okay for us to stay on Zakim today.

Sandro Hawke: Guus, it's okay for us to stay on Zakim today.

15:51:45 <gavinc> People can write 0s! Just not in xsd:string

People can write 0s! Just not in xsd:string

15:52:05 <sandro> ericP: people will want to write zeros, in plain literals.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: people will want to write zeros, in plain literals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:52:23 <sandro> ericP: We make things hard for them by disallowing them.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: We make things hard for them by disallowing them. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:52:44 <sandro> pat: 2004 spec says plain literals were co-extant with strings.    maybe nobody noticed that.

Patrick Hayes: 2004 spec says plain literals were co-extant with strings. maybe nobody noticed that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:53:05 <sandro> guus: amended proposal?

Guus Schreiber: amended proposal? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:54:03 <sandro> gavin: There is no problem.   RDF Plain Literal was always defined in terms of char from XML.

Gavin Carothers: There is no problem. RDF Plain Literal was always defined in terms of char from XML. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:54:19 <sandro> eric: Trig, SPARQL, Turtle, allows zeros

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Trig, SPARQL, Turtle, allows zeros [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:54:31 <sandro> gavin: Just like now -- they're allowed in the syntax, just not in RDF.

Gavin Carothers: Just like now -- they're allowed in the syntax, just not in RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:54:41 <gavinc> "A character is an atomic unit of text. Each character has a Universal Character Set (UCS) code point [ISO/IEC 10646] (or, equivalently, a Unicode code point [UNICODE]) that MUST match the Char production from XML [XML] thus ensuring compatibility with XML Schema Datatypes [XML Schema Datatypes]. Code points are sometimes represented in this document as U+ followed by a four-digit hexadecimal value of the code point. "

"A character is an atomic unit of text. Each character has a Universal Character Set (UCS) code point [ISO/IEC 10646] (or, equivalently, a Unicode code point [UNICODE]) that MUST match the Char production from XML [XML] thus ensuring compatibility with XML Schema Datatypes [XML Schema Datatypes]. Code points are sometimes represented in this document as U+ followed by a four-digit hexadecimal value of the code point. "

15:54:57 <sandro> patH: It sounds like implementations have slack at the edges.  That situation will probably continue.

Patrick Hayes: It sounds like implementations have slack at the edges. That situation will probably continue. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:55:31 <sandro> sandro: Sounds like we need to add some RDF (in)Consistency Test(s).

Sandro Hawke: Sounds like we need to add some RDF (in)Consistency Test(s). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:56:03 <sandro> pfps: replace "syntactically valid" with "acceptable RDF literal"

Peter Patel-Schneider: replace "syntactically valid" with "acceptable RDF literal" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:57:16 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-plain-literal/

http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-plain-literal/

15:57:22 <sandro> gavin: This is not a change.

Gavin Carothers: This is not a change. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:57:42 <AZ>  rdf:PlainLiteral is not part of RDF Concepts

Antoine Zimmermann: rdf:PlainLiteral is not part of RDF Concepts

15:58:12 <AZ> The first rec version of rdf:PlaiinLiteral is from 2009

Antoine Zimmermann: The first rec version of rdf:PlaiinLiteral is from 2009

15:58:23 <sandro> sandro: That's not the spec we should be referring to.

Sandro Hawke: That's not the spec we should be referring to. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:58:35 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/

15:59:10 <AZ> "Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase." in Sec.6.5 of RDF Concepts

Antoine Zimmermann: "Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase." in Sec.6.5 of RDF Concepts

16:00:20 <AZ> (sorry, "All literals have a lexical form being a Unicode [UNICODE] string, which SHOULD be in Normal Form C [NFC].")

Antoine Zimmermann: (sorry, "All literals have a lexical form being a Unicode [UNICODE] string, which SHOULD be in Normal Form C [NFC].")

16:00:21 <ericP> note that i've run http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/manifest.ttl in situ

Eric Prud'hommeaux: note that i've run http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/manifest.ttl in situ

16:00:27 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

16:00:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: Accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html, changing "is an ill-typed literal, but is syntactically permissable." to "is an ill-typed literal".

PROPOSED: Accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html, changing "is an ill-typed literal, but is syntactically permissable." to "is an ill-typed literal".

16:01:10 <patH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:01:18 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:01:18 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:01:20 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:01:22 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:01:23 <sandro> +0   not thrilled, but I don't see any alternative

Sandro Hawke: +0 not thrilled, but I don't see any alternative

16:01:24 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

16:01:26 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

16:01:26 <tbaker> +1

Thomas Baker: +1

16:01:34 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:01:39 <gavinc> +0

+0

16:01:40 <pfps> +1, with the provisio that there may be some further proposal on how to handle plain literals

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1, with the provisio that there may be some further proposal on how to handle plain literals

16:02:08 <sandro> RESOLVED: Accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html, changing "is an ill-typed literal, but is syntactically permissable." to "is an ill-typed literal".

RESOLVED: Accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html, changing "is an ill-typed literal, but is syntactically permissable." to "is an ill-typed literal".

16:03:01 <sandro> issue-126?

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-126?

16:03:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-126 -- xsd:string -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-126 -- xsd:string -- open

16:03:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/126

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/126

16:03:22 <sandro> guus: This was ISSUE-126, now closed.

Guus Schreiber: This was ISSUE-126, now closed. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:03:23 <sandro> close issue-126

Sandro Hawke: close ISSUE-126

16:03:23 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-126 xsd:string.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-126 xsd:string.

16:03:33 <gavinc> ACTION davidwood to modify RDF Concepts in respect to ISSUE-126, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html

ACTION davidwood to modify RDF Concepts in respect to ISSUE-126, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html

16:03:33 <pfps> the minutes will need fixing to change the previous resolution from number 118 to number 126

Peter Patel-Schneider: the minutes will need fixing to change the previous resolution from number 118 to number 126

16:03:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-259 - Modify RDF Concepts in respect to ISSUE-126, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-259 - Modify RDF Concepts in respect to ISSUE-126, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01].

16:03:36 <sandro> subtopic: issue-118

2.4. ISSUE-118

16:03:49 <sandro> subtopic: issue-118 (get rid of datatype maps)

2.5. ISSUE-118 (get rid of datatype maps)

16:03:59 <AZ> a partial mapping, complicated?!

Antoine Zimmermann: a partial mapping, complicated?!

16:04:12 <sandro> pat: We can get rid of datatype maps by just making it part of the interpretation map

Patrick Hayes: We can get rid of datatype maps by just making it part of the interpretation map [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:04:23 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:04:36 <sandro> pat: I made this change, but got some pushback.   It seems editorial to me.

Patrick Hayes: I made this change, but got some pushback. It seems editorial to me. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:02 <sandro> pat: I've suggested changes to the concepts document to bring it in line with this.

Patrick Hayes: I've suggested changes to the concepts document to bring it in line with this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:17 <sandro> pat: I think it's simpler, and more directly intuitive.

Patrick Hayes: I think it's simpler, and more directly intuitive. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:23 <sandro> pat: But I wont push on it hard.

Patrick Hayes: But I wont push on it hard. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:24 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:05:24 <gavinc> +1 to new language

+1 to new language

16:05:31 <sandro> +1 I love it

Sandro Hawke: +1 I love it

16:05:35 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:05:46 <AZ> yes I sent

Antoine Zimmermann: yes I sent

16:05:48 <sandro> AZ, response?

Sandro Hawke: AZ, response?

16:06:34 <gavinc> AZ: I'm not resisting this change. But I'm not sure that we need to make the change.

Antoine Zimmermann: I'm not resisting strongly this change. But I'm not sure that we need to make the change.

16:06:55 <sandro> az: while I agree with what pat said, and I'm not strongly resisting this change, I'm reluctant to make a change where the positive motivation is not motivated by hard evidence.    It does create a problem: how do you specify what a datatype IRI that is no XSD maps to?

Antoine Zimmermann: while I agree with what pat said, and I'm not strongly resisting this change, I'm reluctant to make a change where the positive motivation is not motivated by hard evidence. It does create a problem: how do you specify what a datatype IRI that is no XSD maps to? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:07:35 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:07:45 <AZ> s/not resisting/not resisting strongly/
16:07:56 <sandro> pat: This isn't really an inconsistency between 2004 and 2013.

Patrick Hayes: This isn't really an inconsistency between 2004 and 2013. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:08:32 <sandro> pat: I don't think inventing a mathematic thing called a datatype map actually solved any problem.

Patrick Hayes: I don't think inventing a mathematic thing called a datatype map actually solved any problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:08:43 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:08:50 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:09:18 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

16:09:22 <sandro> pat: The only role the datatype map played was to require the interpretation to be the same at those points

Patrick Hayes: The only role the datatype map played was to require the interpretation to be the same at those points [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:09:22 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

16:09:54 <sandro> sandro: I've never liked datatype maps.

Sandro Hawke: I've never liked datatype maps. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:09:57 <Guus> ack AZ

Guus Schreiber: ack AZ

16:10:40 <sandro> az: The role of the datatype map is to say what datatype the IRI denotes.

Antoine Zimmermann: The role of the datatype map is to say what datatype the IRI denotes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:10:48 <sandro> sandro: (rant)

Sandro Hawke: (rant) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:11:36 <patH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:11:50 <Guus> ack patH

Guus Schreiber: ack patH

16:12:07 <sandro> sandro: in general when you're writing code that hardcodes the meaning of IRIs, ... that's true for datatypes or predicates or anything.

Sandro Hawke: in general when you're writing code that hardcodes the meaning of IRIs, ... that's true for datatypes or predicates or anything. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:12:23 <gavinc> sandro and az disagree about what datatype maps and iris and interpretations work

sandro and az disagree about what datatype maps and iris and interpretations work

16:12:59 <sandro> pat: one less technical notion that people have to understand.       the nonmath folks see one-more-mapping and groan (and maybe give up on RDF).

Patrick Hayes: one less technical notion that people have to understand. the nonmath folks see one-more-mapping and groan (and maybe give up on RDF). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:13:10 <sandro> pat: and the equations boil down from 5 to 1.

Patrick Hayes: and the equations boil down from 5 to 1. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:13:21 <AZ> semantics contain s much more complicated things than "a mapping"

Antoine Zimmermann: semantics contain s much more complicated things than "a mapping"

16:13:55 <sandro> pat: I'll be improving the exposition of Semantics.   That might help with AZ's objection.

Patrick Hayes: I'll be improving the exposition of Semantics. That might help with AZ's objection. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:16 <sandro> pat: eg partial mapping on a set is the same as a total mapping on a subset

Patrick Hayes: eg partial mapping on a set is the same as a total mapping on a subset [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:38 <sandro> guus: maybe a full proposal for issue-118 for next week?

Guus Schreiber: maybe a full proposal for ISSUE-118 for next week? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:47 <sandro> guus: let's resolve it then, please.

Guus Schreiber: let's resolve it then, please. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:54 <sandro> pat: Good for me!

Patrick Hayes: Good for me! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:15:22 <gavinc> Turtle Test suite, it's out there... but we haven't resolved PrEfIX

Turtle Test suite, it's out there... but we haven't resolved PrEfIX

16:15:25 <sandro> guus: Any Other Business?   Anything Urgent?

Guus Schreiber: Any Other Business? Anything Urgent? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:15:30 <patH> toddlered?

Patrick Hayes: toddlered?

16:15:55 <sandro> gavinc: Turtle Test Suite is up, but we need to resolve the Feature At Risk.

Gavin Carothers: Turtle Test Suite is up, but we need to resolve the Feature At Risk. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:16:00 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:16:23 <sandro> .. I'm hesitant to ask for new implementation reports until we have decided on that feature.

Sandro Hawke: .. I'm hesitant to ask for new implementation reports until we have decided on that feature.

16:16:41 <sandro> .. ALSO, n-triples was published as a NOTE, which means it's DONE by has no normative requirements.

Sandro Hawke: .. ALSO, n-triples was published as a NOTE, which means it's DONE by has no normative requirements.

16:16:56 <sandro> .. But the old n-triples was a REC.  So that's weird.

Sandro Hawke: .. But the old n-triples was a REC. So that's weird.

16:17:11 <sandro> sandro: We could rescind the old one?

Sandro Hawke: We could rescind the old one? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:17:29 <sandro> sandro: since it's becoming obsolete.

Sandro Hawke: since it's becoming obsolete. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:17:41 <gkellogg> We should also probably reference the N-Triples test suite.

Gregg Kellogg: We should also probably reference the N-Triples test suite.

16:18:12 <Arnaud>  AOB: who's monitoring the WG list? Martin Nally from IBM sent an email to the list on RDF/JSON but because he's not subscribed his email was put on hold, I would appreciate if whoever has control let his email through

Arnaud Le Hors: AOB: who's monitoring the WG list? Martin Nally from IBM sent an email to the list on RDF/JSON but because he's not subscribed his email was put on hold, I would appreciate if whoever has control let his email through

16:18:31 <sandro> action: gavin to gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk.

ACTION: gavin to gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk.

16:18:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-260 - Gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk. [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-05-01].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-260 - Gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk. [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-05-01].

16:18:52 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

16:19:01 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

16:19:02 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

16:19:08 <Zakim> -pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps

16:19:32 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:19:33 <gavinc> Oh! ... and we need to split the XML and HTML datatypes out of RDF Concepts

Oh! ... and we need to split the XML and HTML datatypes out of RDF Concepts

16:19:43 <sandro> gavinc, why?

Sandro Hawke: gavinc, why?

16:19:55 <gavinc> We agreed to a few weeks ago ;)

We agreed to a few weeks ago ;)

16:20:14 <sandro> why, gavinc?   Because of W3C Dependency rules?     That's no longer a good reason.

Sandro Hawke: why, gavinc? Because of W3C Dependency rules? That's no longer a good reason.

16:20:21 <sandro> (things are changing)

Sandro Hawke: (things are changing)

16:20:29 <gavinc> DOM requirements, and lacking a stable specification to attach to HTML fragement parsing

DOM requirements, and lacking a stable specification to attach to HTML fragement parsing

16:20:48 <sandro> we should talk about that more, gavinc, because pulling it out.

Sandro Hawke: we should talk about that more, gavinc, because pulling it out.

16:20:49 <gavinc> If we can update RDF Concepts as fragement parsing stablizes that's fine

If we can update RDF Concepts as fragement parsing stablizes that's fine

16:20:53 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

16:21:30 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

16:21:35 <Zakim> -TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed

16:21:44 <gavinc> davidwood, poke me if you get lost

davidwood, poke me if you get lost

16:21:55 <davidwood> Cheers, gavinc

David Wood: Cheers, gavinc

16:21:56 <gavinc> hg clone https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/

hg clone https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/

16:22:15 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:22:16 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

16:22:18 <Zakim> -GavinC

Zakim IRC Bot: -GavinC

16:22:18 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended



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