None.
14:09:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/11-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/11-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:09:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:09:36 <pchampin_> Guest: Tom (tbaker) Baker
14:09:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
14:09:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 51 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 51 minutes ←
14:09:39 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:09:39 <trackbot> Date: 11 April 2012
14:57:15 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 47 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started ←
14:57:21 <Zakim> +??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←
14:57:26 <AndyS> zakim, ??P0 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P0 is me ←
14:57:26 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
14:57:34 <AndyS> trackbot, start meeting
Andy Seaborne: trackbot, start meeting ←
14:57:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:57:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
14:57:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes ←
14:57:40 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:57:40 <trackbot> Date: 11 April 2012
14:57:56 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394
Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is 73394 ←
14:57:56 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
14:58:07 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.898.aaaa ←
14:58:09 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
14:58:09 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
14:58:11 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
14:58:20 <NickH> +44.203.318.0479 isn't Zakim anymore!
Nicholas Humfrey: +44.203.318.0479 isn't Zakim anymore! ←
14:58:30 <NickH> it is some American company
Nicholas Humfrey: it is some American company ←
14:59:08 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
14:59:20 <NickH> Zakim, ??P3 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P3 is me ←
14:59:20 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
14:59:27 <NickH> NickH: still here http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.11
Nicholas Humfrey: still here http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.11 [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
14:59:31 <NickH> arg
Nicholas Humfrey: arg ←
14:59:39 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
14:59:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, +1.540.898.aaaa, Ivan, NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, +1.540.898.aaaa, Ivan, NickH ←
14:59:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see tbaker, pchampin_, gavinc, danbri_, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, swh, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu, yvesr_, NickH, trackbot, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see tbaker, pchampin_, gavinc, danbri_, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, swh, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu, yvesr_, NickH, trackbot, sandro, ericP ←
14:59:52 <davidwood> Zakim, aaaa is me
David Wood: Zakim, aaaa is me ←
14:59:52 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
14:59:58 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.861.aabb ←
15:00:00 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me ←
15:00:00 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
15:00:04 <gavinc> Zakim, aabb is me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, aabb is me ←
15:00:04 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it ←
15:01:04 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.781.899.aacc ←
15:01:45 <davidwood> tbaker, please try again
David Wood: tbaker, please try again ←
15:01:55 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.996.aadd ←
15:02:13 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
15:02:15 <Arnaud> zakim, aadd is me
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, aadd is me ←
15:02:15 <Zakim> +Arnaud; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud; got it ←
15:02:25 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
15:02:28 <pchampin_> zakim, ??P8 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P8 is me ←
15:02:29 <Zakim> +pchampin_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin_; got it ←
15:02:42 <tbaker> zakim, ??P13 is tbaker
Tom Baker: zakim, ??P13 is tbaker ←
15:02:45 <Zakim> +tbaker; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tbaker; got it ←
15:02:51 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
15:02:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, davidwood, Ivan, NickH (muted), gavinc, +1.781.899.aacc, Arnaud, pchampin_, tbaker
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, davidwood, Ivan, NickH (muted), gavinc, +1.781.899.aacc, Arnaud, pchampin_, tbaker ←
15:03:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, tbaker, pchampin_, gavinc, danbri_, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, swh, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu, yvesr_, NickH, trackbot, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, tbaker, pchampin_, gavinc, danbri_, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, swh, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu, yvesr_, NickH, trackbot, sandro, ←
15:03:08 <Zakim> ... ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP ←
15:03:10 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
15:03:12 <sandro> zakim, aacc is Sandro
Sandro Hawke: zakim, aacc is Sandro ←
15:03:16 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro; got it ←
15:03:16 <swh> Zakim, ??P14 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P14 is me ←
15:03:24 <Zakim> + +31.20.598.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +31.20.598.aaee ←
15:03:26 <Zakim> +swh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it ←
15:03:37 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
15:03:44 <ivan> zakim, aaee is Guus
Ivan Herman: zakim, aaee is Guus ←
15:03:55 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it ←
15:03:58 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.781.273.aaff ←
15:04:09 <MacTed> Zakim, aaff is OpenLink_Software
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, aaff is OpenLink_Software ←
15:04:19 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software; got it ←
15:04:39 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Softwareis temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Softwareis temporarily me ←
15:04:41 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:04:46 <pchampin_> scribe: pchampin
(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)
15:04:47 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:04:48 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:04:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'OpenLink_Softwareis temporarily me', MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'OpenLink_Softwareis temporarily me', MacTed ←
15:04:56 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, MacTed, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
15:05:00 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:05:01 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 4 Apr telecon:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 4 Apr telecon: ←
15:05:01 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-04-04
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-04-04 ←
15:05:06 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:05:06 <pchampin_> topic: last week minutes
15:05:27 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
15:05:32 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
15:05:40 <pchampin_> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 4 Apr telecon
RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 4 Apr telecon ←
15:05:44 <davidwood> Action item review:
David Wood: Action item review: ←
15:05:44 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - item ←
15:05:44 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview ←
15:05:44 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
15:05:54 <pchampin_> topic: action item review
15:06:15 <Zakim> +??P25
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25 ←
15:06:29 <gavinc> Andy's review is complete. And we asked Pierre Antoine not to do it yet
Gavin Carothers: Andy's review is complete. And we asked Pierre Antoine not to do it yet ←
15:06:41 <AZ> zakim, ??P25 is me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, ??P25 is me ←
15:06:41 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
15:06:50 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aagg ←
15:07:15 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
15:07:15 <Souri> zakim, aagg is me
Souripriya Das: zakim, aagg is me ←
15:07:16 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it ←
15:07:32 <AndyS> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
15:07:44 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
15:07:56 <AndyS> My review is gone-as-much as i can - need to do grammar
Andy Seaborne: My review is gone-as-much as i can - need to do grammar ←
15:09:31 <AndyS> close ACTION-157
Andy Seaborne: close ACTION-157 ←
15:09:31 <trackbot> ACTION-157 Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-157 Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 closed ←
15:09:52 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aahh
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.324.aahh ←
15:09:56 <pchampin_> david: Tom Baker is with us today
David Wood: Tom Baker is with us today ←
15:10:05 <ericP> Zakim, aahh is me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, aahh is me ←
15:10:05 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it ←
15:10:09 <pchampin_> ... he is involved in the RDF for Library group
... he was involved in the RDF for Library Incubator group ←
15:10:19 <ivan> s/is/was/
15:10:23 <pchampin_> ... and came to us to discuss a use case he has for named graphs
... and came to us to discuss a use case he has for named graphs ←
15:10:36 <ivan> s/Library group/Library Incubator group/
15:10:47 <pchampin_> ... may be an important one to include in our short list
... may be an important one to include in our short list ←
15:11:06 <pchampin_> topic: named graphs
15:11:23 <gavinc> Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records (FRBR)
Gavin Carothers: Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records (FRBR) ←
15:11:24 <davidwood> s/Library Incubator group/Library Linked Data Interest Group/
15:11:40 <pchampin_> tbaker: distinction between general properties of a resource (title, subject)
Tom Baker: distinction between general properties of a resource (title, subject) ←
15:12:04 <ivan> s/Data Interest Group/Data Incubator Group/
15:12:08 <pchampin_> ... and very specific properties (e.g. the fact that it's missing a page)
... and very specific properties (e.g. the fact that it's missing a page) ←
15:12:49 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
15:12:49 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
15:13:05 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
15:13:05 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
15:13:07 <pchampin_> ... FRBR has different levels, from very generic to very specific (Work/Expression/Manifestation/Item)
... FRBR has different levels, from very generic to very specific (Work/Expression/Manifestation/Item) ←
15:13:17 <pchampin_> ... semantized as four disjoint classes
... semantized as four disjoint classes ←
15:13:52 <pchampin_> ... problem: in the end of the day, I'm describing a book, a single thing, not 4 distinct entities
... problem: in the end of the day, I'm describing a book, a single thing, not 4 distinct entities ←
15:14:34 <pchampin_> ... if I'm describing a bible, some properties will apply to the Work or the Expression
... if I'm describing a bible, some properties will apply to the Work or the Expression ←
15:14:41 <pchampin_> ... while some others will apply to the Item
... while some others will apply to the Item ←
15:14:47 <ivan> -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRBR Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records
Ivan Herman: -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRBR Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records ←
15:14:48 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
15:14:55 <pchampin_> ... but I don't want to have to specify to which it applies for every property
... but I don't want to have to specify to which it applies for every property ←
15:15:39 <pchampin_> ... idea: to use named graphs
... idea: to use named graphs ←
15:15:44 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
15:16:09 <pchampin_> ... you have 4 chunks of statements :
... you have 4 chunks of statements : ←
15:16:15 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2012Apr/0001.html Tom's email with the details
Ivan Herman: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2012Apr/0001.html Tom's email with the details ←
15:16:32 <pchampin_> work-level, expression-level, manifestation-level, item-level
work-level, expression-level, manifestation-level, item-level ←
15:16:50 <pchampin_> ... work-level, expression-level, manifestation-level, item-level
... work-level, expression-level, manifestation-level, item-level ←
15:17:14 <pchampin_> ... each maintained at different level (national library for the work-level, personal? for item-level)
... each maintained at different level (national library for the work-level, personal? for item-level) ←
15:17:33 <pchampin_> ... better solution than to copy-paste info from high-level to low-level?
... better solution than to copy-paste info from high-level to low-level? ←
15:18:33 <pchampin_> ... refering to "frames" as a mean to merge information from different levels; is that the same as a graph?
... refering to "frames" as a mean to merge information from different levels; is that the same as a graph? ←
15:18:53 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:18:54 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:19:00 <gavinc> q+
Gavin Carothers: q+ ←
15:19:57 <pchampin_> david: where do you see the line between what should be handled by RDF itself, and what should be handled by a higher level application?
David Wood: where do you see the line between what should be handled by RDF itself, and what should be handled by a higher level application? ←
15:20:51 <ivan> ack PatH
Ivan Herman: ack PatH ←
15:20:59 <pchampin_> tbaker: the notion of "frame" seems to be close to the notion of named graph, hence relevant for RDF
Tom Baker: the notion of "frame" seems to be close to the notion of named graph, hence relevant for RDF ←
15:21:05 <davidwood> tbaker: Hopes that RDF will support named graphs and merges of named graphs.
Tom Baker: Hopes that RDF will support named graphs and merges of named graphs. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
15:21:08 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
15:21:30 <pchampin_> ... then the way item-level inherits manifestation-level but not the other way around would be application specific
... then the way item-level inherits manifestation-level but not the other way around would be application specific ←
15:21:49 <pchampin_> pat: why named graphs? why not simply graphs?
Patrick Hayes: why named graphs? why not simply graphs? ←
15:22:35 <pchampin_> tbaker: provenance is an important feature for the library world
Tom Baker: provenance is an important feature for the library world ←
15:24:10 <pchampin_> pat: then what do you want to name? a static graph or a "box" whose content may change in time?
Patrick Hayes: then what do you want to name? a static graph or a "box" whose content may change in time? ←
15:25:09 <pchampin_> tbaker: that would rather be the "box"
Tom Baker: that would rather be the "box" ←
15:25:17 <pchampin_> ... although there would be some versioning issue,
... although there would be some versioning issue, ←
15:25:42 <pchampin_> ... you would want to be able to access a previous version of a given description level
... you would want to be able to access a previous version of a given description level ←
15:25:46 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
15:26:15 <tbaker> URL of the FRBR use case mentioned by Gavin?
Tom Baker: URL of the FRBR use case mentioned by Gavin? ←
15:26:18 <pchampin_> gavin: I hope that some of our use cases match, as they come from an implementation of FRBR in RDF
Gavin Carothers: I hope that some of our use cases match, as they come from an implementation of FRBR in RDF ←
15:27:35 <tbaker> +1 for dynamic
Tom Baker: +1 for dynamic ←
15:27:44 <pchampin_> gavin: in that implementation, the naming *had* to be dynamic (i.e. name "boxes" rather than static graphs)
Gavin Carothers: in that implementation, the naming *had* to be dynamic (i.e. name "boxes" rather than static graphs) ←
15:27:57 <pchampin_> ... as different organizations maintained different levels
... as different organizations maintained different levels ←
15:28:30 <pchampin_> ... and they had to reference someone else's description, despite the fact that this description might evolve
... and they had to reference someone else's description, despite the fact that this description might evolve ←
15:28:40 <tbaker> q+ to ask if Gavin has proposed something quite similar to this concept?
Tom Baker: q+ to ask if Gavin has proposed something quite similar to this concept? ←
15:29:35 <pchampin_> gavin: not everything true about the work has to be true about the item
Gavin Carothers: not everything true about the work has to be true about the item ←
15:29:58 <davidwood> ack tbaker
David Wood: ack tbaker ←
15:29:58 <Zakim> tbaker, you wanted to ask if Gavin has proposed something quite similar to this concept?
Zakim IRC Bot: tbaker, you wanted to ask if Gavin has proposed something quite similar to this concept? ←
15:29:59 <pchampin_> ... e.g. the title of the item may include the words "2nd edition", while the title of the work does not include them
... e.g. the title of the item may include the words "2nd edition", while the title of the work does not include them ←
15:30:01 <PatH> q+ for my third q
Patrick Hayes: q+ for my third q ←
15:30:42 <pchampin_> tbaker: this is an interesting question to the library people
Tom Baker: this is an interesting question to the library people ←
15:30:51 <pchampin_> ... which use case are about FRBR, precisely?
... which use case are about FRBR, precisely? ←
15:31:30 <pchampin_> gavin: the term FRBR does not appear explicitly, but several of them come from that implementation
Gavin Carothers: the term FRBR does not appear explicitly, but several of them come from that implementation ←
15:31:40 <pchampin_> ... an example is: using the subject of the graph as the name of the graph
... an example is: using the subject of the graph as the name of the graph ←
15:31:40 <PatH> tbaker says +1 for dynamic but he also wants strict provenancing for old versions, so there has to be some static stuff under the hood.
Patrick Hayes: tbaker says +1 for dynamic but he also wants strict provenancing for old versions, so there has to be some static stuff under the hood. ←
15:32:29 <pchampin_> tbaker: this notion of primary subject is an important question for us
Tom Baker: this notion of primary subject is an important question for us ←
15:32:29 <tbaker> q-
Tom Baker: q- ←
15:33:05 <PatH> i will stay on the q until this topic is done.
Patrick Hayes: i will stay on the q until this topic is done. ←
15:33:12 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
15:33:13 <pchampin_> david: we've been discussing a way to associate information to the graph itself, rather than the graph content
David Wood: we've been discussing a way to associate information to the graph itself, rather than the graph content ←
15:33:23 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
15:33:25 <pchampin_> ... would that address this question about the primary subject?
... would that address this question about the primary subject? ←
15:33:33 <ericP> q+ to present two representations <http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy>
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to present two representations <http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy> ←
15:33:35 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
15:33:35 <Zakim> PatH, you wanted to discuss my third q
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH, you wanted to discuss my third q ←
15:33:37 <pchampin_> tbaker: yes, that would be helpful
Tom Baker: yes, that would be helpful ←
15:34:01 <ericP> http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy ←
15:34:11 <gavinc> +q to answer why you need named graphs
Gavin Carothers: +q to answer why you need named graphs ←
15:34:50 <gavinc> -q
Gavin Carothers: -q ←
15:35:07 <pchampin_> eric: what is the motivation again for having separate graphs rather than one big graph?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: what is the motivation again for having separate graphs rather than one big graph? ←
15:35:14 <pchampin_> ... (see URL above)
... (see URL above) ←
15:35:28 <pchampin_> tbaker: the motivation is to have the different graphs maintained by different people
Tom Baker: the motivation is to have the different graphs maintained by different people ←
15:35:40 <pchampin_> ... and different provenance information associate with them
... and different provenance information associate with them ←
15:37:18 <MacTed> descriptionOfWork generated by, transcribed by, input by...
Ted Thibodeau: descriptionOfWork generated by, transcribed by, input by... ←
15:37:18 <MacTed> work generated by, edited by, printed by...
Ted Thibodeau: work generated by, edited by, printed by... ←
15:37:18 <MacTed> regarding "primary subject", these may be useful predicates -- foaf:primaryTopic , foaf:topic
Ted Thibodeau: regarding "primary subject", these may be useful predicates -- foaf:primaryTopic , foaf:topic ←
15:37:28 <ericP> http://codepad.org/MuEeISyf
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://codepad.org/MuEeISyf ←
15:37:51 <davidwood> ack ericP
David Wood: ack ericP ←
15:37:51 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to present two representations <http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy>
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to present two representations <http://codepad.org/d9Cl2yiy> ←
15:39:24 <gavinc> btw there should be relationships between work1G expression1G manifestation1G and item1G
Gavin Carothers: btw there should be relationships between work1G expression1G manifestation1G and item1G ←
15:39:30 <gavinc> otherwise I have no idea why you'd bother ;)
Gavin Carothers: otherwise I have no idea why you'd bother ;) ←
15:39:43 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:39:51 <davidwood> Social convention is allowed :)
David Wood: Social convention is allowed :) ←
15:41:23 <MacTed> context!
Ted Thibodeau: context! ←
15:41:28 <pchampin_> eric: where would I put information stating "Moby Dick is a bad whale"?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: where would I put information stating "Moby Dick is a bad whale"? ←
15:41:33 <ericP> http://codepad.org/gLghUHoo
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://codepad.org/gLghUHoo ←
15:42:04 <pchampin_> tbaker: this is the kind of question that would generate a lot of discussion in the library community
Tom Baker: this is the kind of question that would generate a lot of discussion in the library community ←
15:42:13 <ericP> gavinc, can you give me a relationship to add to the trig?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, can you give me a relationship to add to the trig? ←
15:42:16 <pchampin_> ... everyone agrees that it is good to have different levels
... everyone agrees that it is good to have different levels ←
15:42:23 <PatH> tom just made the case for rdf :-)
Patrick Hayes: tom just made the case for rdf :-) ←
15:42:24 <ericP> (between work1G and expression1G)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (between work1G and expression1G) ←
15:42:34 <pchampin_> ... but there is disagreement about where to draw the line
... but there is disagreement about where to draw the line ←
15:42:47 <gavinc> ericP: http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html will help ;)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html will help ;) [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
15:42:57 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
15:43:59 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:44:04 <pchampin_> ivan: in eric's example, the graphs are mostly not relating to each other
Ivan Herman: in eric's example, the graphs are mostly not relating to each other ←
15:44:16 <pchampin_> ... so something must be missing
... so something must be missing ←
15:44:58 <pchampin_> ... how do you expect the properties to "fly" from work to item, e.g.,
... how do you expect the properties to "fly" from work to item, e.g., ←
15:45:11 <pchampin_> ... do you expect a generic mechanism to take care of this for you?
... do you expect a generic mechanism to take care of this for you? ←
15:45:13 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/microdata.html#examples-1
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/microdata.html#examples-1 ←
15:45:24 <gavinc> Example FRBR relationships
Gavin Carothers: Example FRBR relationships ←
15:45:25 <pchampin_> ... or would that be FRBR-specific rules?
... or would that be FRBR-specific rules? ←
15:45:38 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:45:38 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:46:19 <MacTed> there are triples left out of the "Many Named Graphs" example
Ted Thibodeau: there are triples left out of the "Many Named Graphs" example ←
15:46:33 <pchampin_> tbaker: re. FRBR-specific rule, same answer as to David's question sooner.
Tom Baker: re. FRBR-specific rule, same answer as to David's question sooner. ←
15:46:34 <MacTed> they *are* there in the "One RDF Graph" ... and they *should* be in the second as well
Ted Thibodeau: they *are* there in the "One RDF Graph" ... and they *should* be in the second as well ←
15:46:36 <gavinc> properties frbr:realization, frbr:realizationOf etc
Gavin Carothers: properties frbr:realization, frbr:realizationOf etc ←
15:48:14 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
15:48:41 <MacTed> q+ to say inference is commonplace for e.g., subclassOf
Ted Thibodeau: q+ to say inference is commonplace for e.g., subclassOf ←
15:49:38 <pchampin_> tbaker: the "inheritance" rules would be FRBR-specific; but what can be generic is how to merge different kinds of informations stored in different named graphs
Tom Baker: the "inheritance" rules would be FRBR-specific; but what can be generic is how to merge different kinds of informations stored in different named graphs ←
15:49:46 <ericP> http://codepad.org/NH3S6CJi copies the subject relationships from the turtle (but no graph relationships)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://codepad.org/NH3S6CJi copies the subject relationships from the turtle (but no graph relationships) ←
15:50:04 <tbaker> Ivan: we have to be able to express somehow that we take the union of those four graphs and operate rules on the union of the four graphs.
Ivan Herman: we have to be able to express somehow that we take the union of those four graphs and operate rules on the union of the four graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ] ←
15:50:23 <pchampin_> ivan: from your example, I understand that we need a mechanism to merge the content of several graphs together
Ivan Herman: from your example, I understand that we need a mechanism to merge the content of several graphs together ←
15:50:42 <pchampin_> ... so that we can then do something with that union of graphs: like rules, RDFS, etc...
... so that we can then do something with that union of graphs: like rules, RDFS, etc... ←
15:51:17 <tbaker> Pat: If I understand FRBR, can see that there need to be links starting from item and going to more general... A chain from the item back up to the work. What I don't see is any particular need for links going down the hierarchy.
Patrick Hayes: If I understand FRBR, can see that there need to be links starting from item and going to more general... A chain from the item back up to the work. What I don't see is any particular need for links going down the hierarchy. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ] ←
15:52:24 <gavinc> PatH, realization, realizationOf http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html#realization
Gavin Carothers: PatH, realization, realizationOf http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html#realization ←
15:53:36 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:53:40 <pchampin_> tbaker: one would want to be able to follow the relations in both directions
Tom Baker: one would want to be able to follow the relations in both directions ←
15:53:40 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
15:54:04 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:54:13 <gavinc> PatH, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_Requirements_for_Bibliographic_Records
Gavin Carothers: PatH, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_Requirements_for_Bibliographic_Records ←
15:54:29 <danbri_> folks, sorry I can't join the call. I wrote a giant something on FRBR a year ago; http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011Mar/0129.html ... short version: FRBR is about describing mass-produced entities, and the link to our notion of 'class' needs examining.
Dan Brickley: folks, sorry I can't join the call. I wrote a giant something on FRBR a year ago; http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011Mar/0129.html ... short version: FRBR is about describing mass-produced entities, and the link to our notion of 'class' needs examining. ←
15:54:43 <pchampin_> pat: why not using class-instance relation in the FRBR hierarchy instead of specific relations?
Patrick Hayes: why not using class-instance relation in the FRBR hierarchy instead of specific relations? ←
15:54:49 <davidwood> Thanks, danbri
David Wood: Thanks, danbri ←
15:54:58 <pchampin_> ... e.g. Items are instances of the corresponding Expression
... e.g. Items are instances of the corresponding Manifestation ←
15:55:11 <ericP> -> http://codepad.org/W2zZZhIZ with some N3 handle inference
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://codepad.org/W2zZZhIZ with some N3 handle inference ←
15:55:18 <gavinc> +1 danbri
Gavin Carothers: +1 danbri ←
15:55:53 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
15:56:00 <davidwood> ack MacTed
David Wood: ack MacTed ←
15:56:00 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to say inference is commonplace for e.g., subclassOf
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, you wanted to say inference is commonplace for e.g., subclassOf ←
15:56:25 <tbaker> +1 danbri's post on public-lld
Tom Baker: +1 danbri's post on public-lld ←
15:57:00 <pchampin_> macted: the fact that FRBR does not model it as class-instance does not prevent one's specific ontology to add that relation and use it for inference
Ted Thibodeau: the fact that FRBR does not model it as class-instance does not prevent one's specific ontology to add that relation and use it for inference ←
15:57:26 <pchampin_> s/corresponding Expression/corresponding Manifestation/
15:57:55 <pchampin_> tbaker: there has been counter-proposals to the 4 distinct levels
Tom Baker: there has been counter-proposals to the 4 distinct levels ←
15:58:00 <PatH> +1 also danbri which even has a T-shirt design http://www.flickr.com/photos/danbri/2891150205/
Patrick Hayes: +1 also danbri which even has a T-shirt design http://www.flickr.com/photos/danbri/2891150205/ ←
15:58:05 <pchampin_> ... someone made a proposal with only 3 levels
... someone made a proposal with only 3 levels ←
15:58:18 <pchampin_> ... music catalogs have a different classification
... music catalogs have a different classification ←
15:58:46 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:58:56 <danbri> (tshirt example ... that's as close as I've come to finding a role for OWL in my life :)
Dan Brickley: (tshirt example ... that's as close as I've come to finding a role for OWL in my life :) ←
15:59:02 <tbaker> q+ to ask about next steps
Tom Baker: q+ to ask about next steps ←
15:59:36 <pchampin_> macted: what about containers?
Ted Thibodeau: what about containers? ←
15:59:54 <pchampin_> tbaker: this is another big discussion
Tom Baker: this is another big discussion ←
16:00:04 <davidwood> ack tbaker
David Wood: ack tbaker ←
16:00:04 <Zakim> tbaker, you wanted to ask about next steps
Zakim IRC Bot: tbaker, you wanted to ask about next steps ←
16:00:25 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:01:20 <pchampin_> david: I propose to put tom's use cases in our short list
David Wood: I propose to put tom's use cases in our short list ←
16:02:01 <sandro> Pat: What Tom seems to need is the ability to get at graphs, at bits of graphs, and do reasoning with those bits of graphs [ scribe attempt ]
Patrick Hayes: What Tom seems to need is the ability to get at graphs, at bits of graphs, and do reasoning with those bits of graphs [ scribe attempt ] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:02:26 <davidwood> …also to attach metadata to graphs
David Wood: …also to attach metadata to graphs ←
16:02:43 <PatH> Toms use case needs named graphs to support provenance information, metadata, and inference access to the contents of the named graphs, all combined in application-specific ways.
Patrick Hayes: Toms use case needs named graphs to support provenance information, metadata, and inference access to the contents of the named graphs, all combined in application-specific ways. ←
16:03:40 <ericP> <http://codepad.org/j8fMAGlg> uses graphs to perform inferences performed by ?p ?o in <http://codepad.org/W2zZZhIZ>
Eric Prud'hommeaux: <http://codepad.org/j8fMAGlg> uses graphs to perform inferences performed by ?p ?o in <http://codepad.org/W2zZZhIZ> ←
16:03:43 <tbaker> q+ to suggest putting it in wiki with Eric's example
Tom Baker: q+ to suggest putting it in wiki with Eric's example ←
16:04:04 <pchampin_> sandro: sounds very general, difficult to say if it is addressed or not
Sandro Hawke: sounds very general, difficult to say if it is addressed or not ←
16:04:14 <pchampin_> pat: this is more of an aggregate use case
Patrick Hayes: this is more of an aggregate use case ←
16:04:17 <davidwood> ack tbaker
David Wood: ack tbaker ←
16:04:17 <Zakim> tbaker, you wanted to suggest putting it in wiki with Eric's example
Zakim IRC Bot: tbaker, you wanted to suggest putting it in wiki with Eric's example ←
16:06:06 <pchampin_> david: could Tom and Eric formulate these use cases on the wiki?
David Wood: could Tom and Eric formulate these use cases on the wiki? ←
16:06:40 <tbaker> q+ to quickly respond to Pat
Tom Baker: q+ to quickly respond to Pat ←
16:06:49 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:06:53 <ivan> ack tbaker
Ivan Herman: ack tbaker ←
16:06:53 <Zakim> tbaker, you wanted to quickly respond to Pat
Zakim IRC Bot: tbaker, you wanted to quickly respond to Pat ←
16:07:05 <gavinc> There is AN ontology http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html which may be horribly wrong
Gavin Carothers: There is AN ontology http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html which may be horribly wrong ←
16:07:25 <davidwood> ACTION: EricP to work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs
ACTION: EricP to work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs ←
16:07:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-162 - Work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-04-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-162 - Work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-04-18]. ←
16:07:45 <pchampin_> pat: my concern is: should we focus first on RDF or on the ontology? but let's go on RDF
Patrick Hayes: my concern is: should we focus first on RDF or on the ontology? but let's go on RDF ←
16:09:02 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:09:02 <pchampin_> tbaker: focusing on the RDF and named graphs will help keep the core of the ontology simple [scribe hopse he got it right]
Tom Baker: focusing on the RDF and named graphs will help keep the core of the ontology simple [scribe hopse he got it right] ←
16:09:08 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:09:33 <PatH> This may be a first, discussing ontology standards while emptying a cat litter tray.
Patrick Hayes: This may be a first, discussing ontology standards while emptying a cat litter tray. ←
16:09:33 <pchampin_> ivan: I don't feel that we are so far off to address Tom's use cases
Ivan Herman: I don't feel that we are so far off to address Tom's use cases ←
16:10:12 <PatH> +1 to ivan on union issue.
Patrick Hayes: +1 to ivan on union issue. ←
16:10:20 <gavinc> Need to be able to construct unions too!
Gavin Carothers: Need to be able to construct unions too! ←
16:10:32 <PatH> i feel jubilant.
Patrick Hayes: i feel jubilant. ←
16:10:48 <tbaker> I feel jubiliant that Pat feels jubilant
Tom Baker: I feel jubiliant that Pat feels jubilant ←
16:10:48 <pchampin_> ... if we agree that the default graph of a dataset would always be the union of all the named graph, then we might have what Tom needs
... if we agree that the default graph of a dataset would always be the union of all the named graph, then we might have what Tom needs ←
16:11:36 <sandro> q
Sandro Hawke: q ←
16:11:38 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:12:08 <AndyS> Maybe it is not feature of the TriG exchanged, but is done with the named graph once received.
Andy Seaborne: Maybe it is not feature of the TriG exchanged, but is done with the named graph once received. ←
16:12:11 <pchampin_> ... there should be no semantic problem; it's the syntactical details that need to be worked out
... there should be no semantic problem; it's the syntactical details that need to be worked out ←
16:12:20 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs_FRBR persuant to ACTION-162
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs_FRBR persuant to ACTION-162 ←
16:12:51 <AndyS> Maybe it is not feature of the TriG exchanged, but is about what is done with the collection of named graphs once received. -- requirement no dft graph in this case.
Andy Seaborne: Maybe it is not feature of the TriG exchanged, but is about what is done with the collection of named graphs once received. -- requirement no dft graph in this case. ←
16:12:54 <tbaker> david: Proposal already addresses metadata on graphs (Ivan's formalization of Sandro's as tweaked by Pat). The deltas are in relation to where we want to draw the line on inference.
David Wood: Proposal already addresses metadata on graphs (Ivan's formalization of Sandro's as tweaked by Pat). The deltas are in relation to where we want to draw the line on inference. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ] ←
16:13:01 <PatH> we never say X is always Y if we can give users an easy way to say this particular X is a Y
Patrick Hayes: we never say X is always Y if we can give users an easy way to say this particular X is a Y ←
16:13:25 <pchampin_> david: the remaining question would then be: where do we draw the line for inference, right?
David Wood: the remaining question would then be: where do we draw the line for inference, right? ←
16:13:30 <tbaker> Ivan: We draw the line on inference. Ontology-based inference based on FRBR is out there, we should not touch, but in my proposal, inferencing done only on the default graph.
Ivan Herman: We draw the line on inference. Ontology-based inference based on FRBR is out there, we should not touch, but in my proposal, inferencing done only on the default graph. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ] ←
16:14:01 <tbaker> ... This is not the way tom wants to use them. Rather: take the union and do inference on that. Additional trick needed.
Tom Baker: ... This is not the way tom wants to use them. Rather: take the union and do inference on that. Additional trick needed. ←
16:14:01 <pchampin_> ... with a mechanism to "quote" some of the graphs (i.e. keep them out of inference)
... with a mechanism to "quote" some of the graphs (i.e. keep them out of inference) ←
16:14:24 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:14:25 <tbaker> david: In order to facilitate that inferencing, Tom's proposal may be missing a layer.
David Wood: In order to facilitate that inferencing, Tom's proposal may be missing a layer. [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ] ←
16:14:30 <sandro> sandro: How about we have Merge-Default-Graph-Datasets and Explicit-Default-Graph-Datasets, and use Trig {} to serialize the difference?
Sandro Hawke: How about we have Merge-Default-Graph-Datasets and Explicit-Default-Graph-Datasets, and use Trig {} to serialize the difference? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:43 <pchampin_> david: it seems to me that Tom's proposal is missing a layer, though
David Wood: it seems to me that Tom's proposal is missing a layer, though ←
16:15:09 <davidwood> Does the inferencing requirement suggest the need for a graph that holds named graphs (single-level nesting)?
David Wood: Does the inferencing requirement suggest the need for a graph that holds named graphs (single-level nesting)? ←
16:15:10 <tbaker> Sandro: As Ivan puts it: in SPARQL world, two types of datasets. Never been explicit about ... .
Sandro Hawke: As Ivan puts it: in SPARQL world, two types of datasets. Never been explicit about ... . [ Scribe Assist by Tom Baker ] ←
16:15:14 <PatH> I have to go very soon.
Patrick Hayes: I have to go very soon. ←
16:15:25 <pchampin_> sandro: in the SPARQL world, there has always been two kinds of dataset
Sandro Hawke: in the SPARQL world, there has always been two kinds of dataset ←
16:15:27 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:15:35 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
16:15:50 <pchampin_> ... need a way to make this explicit in Trig
... need a way to make this explicit in Trig ←
16:16:10 <PatH> I got to go, sorry.
Patrick Hayes: I got to go, sorry. ←
16:16:17 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:16:18 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:16:36 <tbaker> Thank you all for the great input - looking forward to follow-up!
Tom Baker: Thank you all for the great input - looking forward to follow-up! ←
16:16:54 <davidwood> Thanks, tbaker!
David Wood: Thanks, tbaker! ←
16:16:56 <AndyS> Thanks Tom.
Andy Seaborne: Thanks Tom. ←
16:17:46 <davidwood> adjourned
David Wood: adjourned ←
16:20:04 <ericP> tbaker, take a peek at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs_FRBR> ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: tbaker, take a peek at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs_FRBR> ? ←
16:20:59 <Zakim> -swh
Zakim IRC Bot: -swh ←
16:21:15 <tbaker> ok - do we want to fold in some of the text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2012Apr/0001.html
Tom Baker: ok - do we want to fold in some of the text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2012Apr/0001.html ←
16:24:55 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
16:25:17 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:25:20 <ericP> tbaker, yeah, i linked to it as a placeholder. it should absolutely recapitulate everything that folks need to swap in the decisions parameters
Eric Prud'hommeaux: tbaker, yeah, i linked to it as a placeholder. it should absolutely recapitulate everything that folks need to swap in the decisions parameters ←
16:25:55 <davidwood> pchampin, please see the directions at the top of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
David Wood: pchampin, please see the directions at the top of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes ←
Formatted by CommonScribe