edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 21 December 2011

Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Jeremy Carroll, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Richard Cyganiak, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond
Scribe
Andy Seaborne, Eric Prud'hommeaux
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph link
Topics
16:02:08 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:02:08 <trackbot> Date: 21 December 2011
16:02:13 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:02:13 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

16:02:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, cygri, pfps, AndyS, AZ, pchampin, JeremyCarroll, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, gavinc, Guus, MacTed, mischat, manu, trackbot, davidwood, mdmdm, manu1, NickH,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, cygri, pfps, AndyS, AZ, pchampin, JeremyCarroll, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, gavinc, Guus, MacTed, mischat, manu, trackbot, davidwood, mdmdm, manu1, NickH,

16:02:15 <gavinc> zakim, this is 73394

Gavin Carothers: zakim, this is 73394

16:02:17 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP

16:02:17 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:02:41 <gavinc> there we go!

Gavin Carothers: there we go!

16:02:51 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:02:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.540.898.aabb, [IPcaller], +1.707.861.aacc, +1.415.586.aadd, ??P9, ??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.540.898.aabb, [IPcaller], +1.707.861.aacc, +1.415.586.aadd, ??P9, ??P11

16:02:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, cygri, pfps, AndyS, AZ, pchampin, JeremyCarroll, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, gavinc, Guus, MacTed, mischat, manu, trackbot, davidwood, mdmdm, manu1, NickH,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, cygri, pfps, AndyS, AZ, pchampin, JeremyCarroll, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, gavinc, Guus, MacTed, mischat, manu, trackbot, davidwood, mdmdm, manu1, NickH,

16:02:55 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP

16:02:56 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS

(Scribe set to Andy Seaborne)

16:03:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.540.898.aabb, AndyS, gavinc, JeremyCarroll, ??P9, ??P11, MacTed (muted), cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.540.898.aabb, AndyS, gavinc, JeremyCarroll, ??P9, ??P11, MacTed (muted), cygri

16:03:37 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
16:04:17 <AndyS> topic: Admin

1. Admin

16:05:42 <AndyS> david: admin section then discussion of the path forward for [graph]

David Wood: admin section then discussion of the path forward for [graph]

16:05:46 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 14 Dec telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 14 Dec telecon:

16:05:46 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-12-14

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-12-14

16:05:51 <Guus> zakim, who is on the phone?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:05:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.540.898.aabb, AndyS, gavinc (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), yvesr, AZ, MacTed (muted), cygri, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.540.898.aabb, AndyS, gavinc (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), yvesr, AZ, MacTed (muted), cygri, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall

16:06:10 <davidwood> zakim, aabb is me

David Wood: zakim, aabb is me

16:06:10 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

16:06:28 <AndyS> topic: Action item review

2. Action item review

16:06:35 <AndyS> No pending action items

No pending action items

16:06:45 <AndyS> David: 13 open actions

David Wood: 13 open actions

16:07:06 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.760.705.aaff

16:07:13 <pchampin> zakim, aaff is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, aaff is me

16:07:13 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

16:07:16 <pchampin> zakim, mute me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, mute me

16:07:16 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin should now be muted

16:08:15 <gavinc> Zakim, unmute me

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, unmute me

16:08:15 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should no longer be muted

16:09:07 <AndyS> david: action 117 - jeremy ...

David Wood: ACTION-117 - jeremy ...

16:09:13 <AndyS> ... duration datatypes

... duration datatypes

16:09:27 <AndyS> jeremy: will do action

Jeremy Carroll: will do action

16:09:37 <AndyS> ... action 118 similar

... ACTION-118 similar

16:10:09 <AndyS> david: gavin - action on formatted text literals

David Wood: gavin - action on formatted text literals

16:10:14 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:10:55 <AndyS> ack cygri

ack cygri

16:11:08 <AndyS> cygri: pls expand on action 124

Richard Cyganiak: pls expand on ACTION-124

16:11:28 <AndyS> gavin: it's because of xml literal downplayed ... what about formatted text?

Gavin Carothers: it's because of xml literal downplayed ... what about formatted text?

16:11:55 <AndyS> topic: next meeting

3. next meeting

16:12:01 <AndyS> Jan 4

Jan 4

16:12:07 <AndyS> topic: path forward

4. path forward

16:12:45 <AndyS> david: Named graphs has been a major matter for the WG ... but also now see there are concerns about how people view the web

David Wood: Named graphs has been a major matter for the WG ... but also now see there are concerns about how people view the web

16:13:09 <AndyS> ... lot of perspectives in WG and these all be considered valid.

... lot of perspectives in WG and these all be considered valid.

16:13:34 <AndyS> ... new uses of RDF (Linked Data Ent Workshop)

... new uses of RDF (Linked Data Ent Workshop)

16:13:50 <AndyS> ... not just for one thing

... not just for one thing

16:14:09 <AndyS> ... pls keep in mind that other people's perspective are valid

... pls keep in mind that other people's perspective are valid

16:14:42 <AndyS> ... WG needs to find a compromiose

... WG needs to find a compromiose

16:15:00 <AndyS> ... sandros has suggested we focus on the use cases

... sandros has suggested we focus on the use cases

16:15:13 <AndyS> ... starting with Richard

... starting with Richard

16:15:44 <PatH> Sorry Im late, having a problem phoning in.

Patrick Hayes: Sorry Im late, having a problem phoning in.

16:16:22 <AndyS> ... email dec 21 at 13:43 UTC (??)

... email dec 21 at 13:43 UTC (??)

16:16:42 <AndyS> ... Richard, where is the key issues here?

... Richard, where is the key issues here?

16:17:20 <AndyS> sandro: for now, just think about UC, not analysis one UC until several looked at

Sandro Hawke: for now, just think about UC, not analysis one UC until several looked at

16:17:35 <AndyS> ... and we may see the common elements

... and we may see the common elements

16:18:01 <AndyS> david: need to look sufficiently deeply

David Wood: need to look sufficiently deeply

16:18:19 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

16:18:22 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

16:18:49 <AndyS> cygri: this UC was about the exchange of ... really 2 UC ... and a Higgs boson was seen

Richard Cyganiak: this UC was about the exchange of ... really 2 UC ... and a Higgs boson was seen

16:20:25 <AndyS> sandro: what are other people hoping to get out of NG

Sandro Hawke: what are other people hoping to get out of NG

16:20:44 <Guus> q+ to suggest BBC one to take on, if it takes some time for Richard to come back

Guus Schreiber: q+ to suggest BBC one to take on, if it takes some time for Richard to come back

16:20:55 <AndyS> david: Jeremy suggested a text case approach

David Wood: Jeremy suggested a text case approach

16:21:02 <PatH> maybe if i leave...?

Patrick Hayes: maybe if i leave...?

16:21:05 <AndyS> ... will get to that on the hour

... will get to that on the hour

16:21:30 <PatH> pchampi, not knowingly.

Patrick Hayes: pchampi, not knowingly.

16:23:01 <AndyS> Jeremy: previously, have found that test cases stress the common ground, not the conceptualisms around it

Jeremy Carroll: previously, have found that test cases stress the common ground, not the conceptualisms around it

16:23:10 <PatH> +1 to jeremy

Patrick Hayes: +1 to jeremy

16:23:16 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:23:17 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:23:17 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:23:42 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

16:23:50 <cygri> zakim, ??P8 is me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, ??P8 is me

16:23:50 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

16:23:58 <AndyS> ... I suggested on test case.  We can formally resolve on that then move to next test case.  100 small steps.

... I suggested on test case. We can formally resolve on that then move to next test case. 100 small steps.

16:24:10 <AndyS> (link please)

(link please)

16:24:13 <PatH> richard is back :-)

Patrick Hayes: richard is back :-)

16:24:38 <Guus> +1 to the ill-formedness of that test case

Guus Schreiber: +1 to the ill-formedness of that test case

16:24:53 <gavinc> { ( {a:b c:d e:f}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ), ( {}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ) }

Gavin Carothers: { ( {a:b c:d e:f}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ), ( {}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ) }

16:25:16 <Guus> q+ to syggest to do the strawpoll first

Guus Schreiber: q+ to syggest to do the strawpoll first

16:25:38 <JeremyCarroll> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0123.html

Jeremy Carroll: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0123.html

16:25:41 <davidwood> ack Guus

David Wood: ack Guus

16:25:41 <Zakim> Guus, you wanted to suggest BBC one to take on, if it takes some time for Richard to come back and to syggest to do the strawpoll first

Zakim IRC Bot: Guus, you wanted to suggest BBC one to take on, if it takes some time for Richard to come back and to syggest to do the strawpoll first

16:26:03 <AndyS> q+

q+

16:26:04 <gavinc> STRAWPOLL: RDF 1.1 Recommendation will not recommend the use  { ( {a:b c:d e:f}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ), ( {}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ) }

STRAWPOLL: RDF 1.1 Recommendation will not recommend the use { ( {a:b c:d e:f}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ), ( {}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ) }

16:26:42 <AndyS> q+ to ask if this is syntax or abstract data model?

q+ to ask if this is syntax or abstract data model?

16:26:53 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

16:26:53 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask if this is syntax or abstract data model?

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask if this is syntax or abstract data model?

16:27:28 <AndyS> AndyS: Is this syntax?

Andy Seaborne: Is this syntax?

16:27:33 <AndyS> Jeremy: Yes.

Jeremy Carroll: Yes.

16:27:38 <PatH> lets stick to abstract model first.

Patrick Hayes: lets stick to abstract model first.

16:27:40 <Guus> it is not TriG syntax, btw

Guus Schreiber: it is not TriG syntax, btw

16:27:59 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

16:28:06 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:28:13 <davidwood> ack pfps

David Wood: ack pfps

16:28:25 <AndyS> pfps: is this an RDF dataset?

Peter Patel-Schneider: is this an RDF dataset?

16:28:46 <Zakim> +Eric

Zakim IRC Bot: +Eric

16:28:49 <AndyS> jeremy: syntax wrong -it is an RDF dataset that has a repeated label on two graphs

Jeremy Carroll: syntax wrong -it is an RDF dataset that has a repeated label on two graphs

16:29:21 <cygri> RDF Dataset definition includes: "Graph names are unique within an RDF dataset."

Richard Cyganiak: RDF Dataset definition includes: "Graph names are unique within an RDF dataset."

16:29:31 <AndyS> pfps: RDF dataset has a label only once.

Peter Patel-Schneider: RDF dataset has a label only once.

16:29:36 <cygri> so, that's a negative test case.

Richard Cyganiak: so, that's a negative test case.

16:30:28 <gavinc> https://gist.github.com/1506664

Gavin Carothers: https://gist.github.com/1506664

16:30:31 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:30:34 <gavinc> Not A Dataset https://gist.github.com/1506664

Gavin Carothers: Not A Dataset https://gist.github.com/1506664

16:30:39 <PatH> Jeremy is trying to locate the shore by first putting a pole clearly in the water.

Patrick Hayes: Jeremy is trying to locate the shore by first putting a pole clearly in the water.

16:31:05 <AndyS> david: Negative test, concept, not synatx,

David Wood: Negative test, concept, not synatx,

16:31:18 <JeremyCarroll> STRAWPOLL: RDF 1.1 Recommendation will not recommend the use { ( {a:b c:d e:f}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ), ( {}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ) }

STRAWPOLL: RDF 1.1 Recommendation will not recommend the use { ( {a:b c:d e:f}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ), ( {}, mailto:ivan@w3.org ) }

16:31:33 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

16:31:35 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:31:40 <MacTed> (will not recommend?  or will disrecommend?)

Ted Thibodeau: (will not recommend? or will disrecommend?)

16:31:41 <JeremyCarroll> +1

Jeremy Carroll: +1

16:31:41 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:31:44 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:31:46 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

16:31:52 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

16:31:53 <davidwood> Sandro: +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

16:31:53 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:31:53 <AndyS> +1

+1

16:31:55 <Guus> we can formulate this stronger, I think

Guus Schreiber: we can formulate this stronger, I think

16:31:56 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:31:56 <pfps> +1 to what david is saying, not to the strawpoll per se

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to what david is saying, not to the strawpoll per se

16:32:00 <MacTed> +1 for not recommending ... but I think that's not the right expression

Ted Thibodeau: +1 for not recommending ... but I think that's not the right expression

16:32:07 <AlexHall> +1

Alex Hall: +1

16:33:03 <pfps> STRAWPOLL:  In an RDF dataset, there must be a function (and not a general relation) from "tags" to graphs

STRAWPOLL: In an RDF dataset, there must be a function (and not a general relation) from "tags" to graphs

16:33:09 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

16:33:16 <AndyS> guus: test suite

Guus Schreiber: test suite

16:33:29 <ericP> i think a test suite would be bound to a serialization

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think a test suite would be bound to a serialization

16:33:33 <AndyS> ... we need a owner/manager

... we need a owner/manager

16:33:44 <AndyS> q+

q+

16:34:18 <AndyS> david: if we can't get a test case, keep proposal and not loose it

David Wood: if we can't get a test case, keep proposal and not loose it

16:34:21 <gavinc> PROPOSAL : In a TriG document a graph IRI must not be used to label more then one graph.

Gavin Carothers: PROPOSAL : In a TriG document a graph IRI must not be used to label more then one graph.

16:34:51 <AndyS> q-

q-

16:34:57 <Guus> proposal to use TriG as test-suite serialization language

Guus Schreiber: proposal to use TriG as test-suite serialization language

16:35:00 <PatH> English version: the WG will not recommend any construction in which two different graphs are assigned the same label.

Patrick Hayes: English version: the WG will not recommend any construction in which two different graphs are assigned the same label.

16:35:26 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me.

16:35:26 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:35:30 <AndyS> why not have "tests" being text files for now, pending syntax?

why not have "tests" being text files for now, pending syntax?

16:35:34 <ericP> a SPARQL-style test suite of a set of a mapping of turtle docs to unique graph names (and default graph) would capture this test without steaking out an interpretation of TriG

Eric Prud'hommeaux: a SPARQL-style test suite of a set of a mapping of turtle docs to unique graph names (and default graph) would capture this test without steaking out an interpretation of TriG

16:35:56 <davidwood> PROPOSAL : In a TriG document or similar syntax constituting an RDF dataset, a graph IRI must not be used to label more then one graph.

David Wood: PROPOSAL : In a TriG document or similar syntax constituting an RDF dataset, a graph IRI must not be used to label more then one graph.

16:36:02 <AndyS> +1 to ericP as SPARQL tests can write these down

+1 to ericP as SPARQL tests can write these down

16:36:27 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:36:28 <PatH> steaking out, nice. we can try roasting out as well.

Patrick Hayes: steaking out, nice. we can try roasting out as well.

16:36:34 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:36:46 <PatH> sounds much better

Patrick Hayes: sounds much better

16:36:56 <PatH> zakim, mute me.

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me.

16:36:56 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:37:02 <AndyS> cygri: option for different relationships of a "name" and a graph

Richard Cyganiak: option for different relationships of a "name" and a graph

16:37:17 <AndyS> ... may or may not be mixed in an RDF dataset

... may or may not be mixed in an RDF dataset

16:37:46 <AndyS> ... ??allow the name multiple times for different relationships

... ??allow the name multiple times for different relationships

16:38:01 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to speak against Richard

Jeremy Carroll: q+ to speak against Richard

16:38:10 <gavinc> <mailto:ivan@w3.org> <relation1> {

Gavin Carothers: <mailto:ivan@w3.org> <relation1> {

16:38:11 <gavinc> 	<a> <b> <c> .

Gavin Carothers: <a> <b> <c> .

16:38:13 <gavinc> }

Gavin Carothers: }

16:38:14 <gavinc> <mailto:ivan@w3.org> <relation2> {

Gavin Carothers: <mailto:ivan@w3.org> <relation2> {

16:38:16 <gavinc>

Gavin Carothers:

16:38:17 <gavinc> }

Gavin Carothers: }

16:38:23 <AndyS> <labeluri> :p1 {} . <labeluri> :p2 {}

<labeluri> :p1 {} . <labeluri> :p2 {}

16:38:25 <ericP> <G1> :logSemantics { <s1> <p1> <o1> } ; :signs { <s2> <p2> <o2> }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <G1> :logSemantics { <s1> <p1> <o1> } ; :signs { <s2> <p2> <o2> }

16:38:39 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll

David Wood: ack JeremyCarroll

16:38:39 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to speak against Richard

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to speak against Richard

16:38:47 <MacTed> tweaked PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, whether expressed by a TriG document or any other syntax, a single graph IRI (1) MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph; (2) MAY ONLY be used to label one graph.

Ted Thibodeau: tweaked PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, whether expressed by a TriG document or any other syntax, a single graph IRI (1) MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph; (2) MAY ONLY be used to label one graph.

16:38:58 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

16:39:03 <AndyS> Jeremy: we can revise if we decide that. Test case is more concrete probe.  Not too many choices.

Jeremy Carroll: we can revise if we decide that. Test case is more concrete probe. Not too many choices.

16:39:15 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

16:39:18 <cygri> zakim, ??P8 is me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, ??P8 is me

16:39:18 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

16:39:18 <PatH> i see what richard is saying, but agree with jeremy

Patrick Hayes: i see what richard is saying, but agree with jeremy

16:39:55 <PatH> any decision will rule out some possibilities.

Patrick Hayes: any decision will rule out some possibilities.

16:40:14 <MacTed> intentionally so

Ted Thibodeau: intentionally so

16:40:22 <PatH> are they different?

Patrick Hayes: are they different?

16:41:06 <Guus> PROPOSAL Within a single RDF dataset MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph

Guus Schreiber: PROPOSAL Within a single RDF dataset MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph

16:41:07 <davidwood> PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI (1) MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph; (2) MAY ONLY be used to label one graph.

David Wood: PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI (1) MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph; (2) MAY ONLY be used to label one graph.

16:41:19 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:41:20 <MacTed> (1) and (2) are intentionally redundant.  the first conforms more to RFC grammar; the second is more clear to many readers.

Ted Thibodeau: (1) and (2) are intentionally redundant. the first conforms more to RFC grammar; the second is more clear to many readers.

16:41:27 <AndyS> Jeremy: multiple labelled blocks is still one graph is a possibility

Jeremy Carroll: multiple labelled blocks is still one graph is a possibility

16:41:27 <ericP> PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI (1) MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph

Eric Prud'hommeaux: PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI (1) MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph

16:41:31 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

16:41:34 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

16:41:34 <Zakim> PatH was not muted, PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH was not muted, PatH

16:42:19 <AndyS> PatH: one reason for not doing this is where identity is expensive

Patrick Hayes: one reason for not doing this is where identity is expensive

16:42:20 <cygri> we just need to detect identity of the URIs, not of the graphs

Richard Cyganiak: we just need to detect identity of the URIs, not of the graphs

16:42:36 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:42:36 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:42:57 <davidwood> PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph

David Wood: PROPOSAL : Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph

16:43:06 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:43:06 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:43:07 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

16:43:10 <davidwood> Sandro: +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

16:43:11 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:43:11 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:43:12 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:43:12 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

16:43:15 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

16:43:15 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:43:15 <AlexHall> +1

Alex Hall: +1

16:43:18 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

16:43:22 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:43:22 <AndyS> +1

+1

16:43:57 <AndyS> RESOLVED: Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph

RESOLVED: Within a single RDF dataset, regardless of syntax, a single graph IRI MUST NOT be used to label more then one graph

16:44:00 <PatH> cygri, yes of course. sorry.

Patrick Hayes: cygri, yes of course. sorry.

16:44:24 <AndyS> david: The use case ... richard

David Wood: The use case ... richard

16:44:41 <AndyS> cygri: UC about web crawling and crawling RDF data

Richard Cyganiak: UC about web crawling and crawling RDF data

16:45:02 <AndyS> ... at the time of crawl may not know the use to be made of the data

... at the time of crawl may not know the use to be made of the data

16:45:12 <AndyS> ... i.e. crawler grabs stuff

... i.e. crawler grabs stuff

16:45:24 <AndyS> ... so keep things in separate graphs

... so keep things in separate graphs

16:45:29 <AndyS> ... keep source info

... keep source info

16:46:22 <AndyS> ... at this stage, data considered is by source only, nothing outside

... at this stage, data considered is by source only, nothing outside

16:46:28 <Guus> remark about the resolution:  you can interpret it as an implicit resolution that graph names must be IRIs. Should we make this explicit?

Guus Schreiber: remark about the resolution: you can interpret it as an implicit resolution that graph names must be IRIs. Should we make this explicit?

16:46:40 <AndyS> ... important - store this in a SPARQL store for query using GRAPH

... important - store this in a SPARQL store for query using GRAPH

16:47:15 <AndyS> ... important - crawls can be exchanged (practical reasons) - nquads where 4th slot is the source

... important - crawls can be exchanged (practical reasons) - nquads where 4th slot is the source

16:47:22 <AndyS> ... source URL

... source URL

16:47:49 <AndyS> david: Are you using the source URL as the graph URI?

David Wood: Are you using the source URL as the graph URI?

16:47:59 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:48:31 <AndyS> cygri: In several examples, inc billion triples dump, and Sindice, then source URL is 4th slot in the dump

Richard Cyganiak: In several examples, inc billion triples dump, and Sindice, then source URL is 4th slot in the dump

16:48:43 <AndyS> ... makes it easy to understand

... makes it easy to understand

16:49:17 <AndyS> sandro: similar : tabulator and ?? but they use tag as a retriveal event

Sandro Hawke: similar : tabulator and ?? but they use tag as a retriveal event

16:49:35 <AndyS> ... if higher costs are acceptable

... if higher costs are acceptable

16:49:47 <PatH> do these systems use RDF metadata in which the graph identifiers are used to identify the graphs?

Patrick Hayes: do these systems use RDF metadata in which the graph identifiers are used to identify the graphs?

16:50:20 <cygri> q+ to answer pat

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to answer pat

16:50:30 <AndyS> david: how does this inform you?

David Wood: how does this inform you?

16:51:25 <AndyS> cygri: to PatH: they refer to the source, not the graph

Richard Cyganiak: to PatH: they refer to the source, not the graph

16:51:26 <PatH> great.

Patrick Hayes: great.

16:51:59 <AndyS> cygri: does not make much sense about the merge of all the graphs

Richard Cyganiak: does not make much sense about the merge of all the graphs

16:52:34 <AndyS> ... or consistency.  It data management to keep them separate.  May subset and do other stuff later.

... or consistency. It data management to keep them separate. May subset and do other stuff later.

16:52:35 <PatH> that really is very nice, and allows an elegant semantic 'gloss' to account for this being conformant.

Patrick Hayes: that really is very nice, and allows an elegant semantic 'gloss' to account for this being conformant.

16:53:08 <AndyS> ... semantics is "not good" lots of things wrong and need to be sorted out by the app on top later

... data is "not good" lots of things wrong and need to be sorted out by the app on top later

16:53:23 <AndyS> ... we want a way to split the triples by source

... we want a way to split the triples by source

16:53:26 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:53:35 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

16:53:35 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:53:54 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:53:54 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to answer pat

Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to answer pat

16:54:06 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

16:54:40 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

16:54:40 <AndyS> PatH: The sticking point for me has been the way URIs are used in difefrent ways - now clear in Richards UC that this is not the case

Patrick Hayes: The sticking point for me has been the way URIs are used in difefrent ways - now clear in Richards UC that this is not the case

16:54:55 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

16:55:00 <cygri> zakim, ??P8 is me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, ??P8 is me

16:55:00 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

16:55:01 <ericP> AggregateDB GETs <http://a.example/doc1.ttl> at with headers <H>, could create any of these DBs:

Eric Prud'hommeaux: AggregateDB GETs <http://a.example/doc1.ttl> at with headers <H>, could create any of these DBs:

16:55:04 <ericP>   snapshot: <http://a.example/doc1.ttl>: { <s1> <p1> <o1> }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: snapshot: <http://a.example/doc1.ttl>: { <s1> <p1> <o1> }

16:55:07 <ericP>   with-metadata: default graph: { <http://a.example/doc1.ttl> http:headers <H> }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: with-metadata: default graph: { <http://a.example/doc1.ttl> http:headers <H> }

16:55:09 <AndyS> ... so we can add metadata etc

... so we can add metadata etc

16:55:09 <ericP>                  <http://a.example/doc1.ttl>: { <s1> <p1> <o1> }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <http://a.example/doc1.ttl>: { <s1> <p1> <o1> }

16:55:12 <ericP>   with history: default graph: { </2011-12-21T11:50/http://a.example/doc1.ttl> http:resource <http://a.example/doc1.ttl> ; http:headers <H> }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: with history: default graph: { </2011-12-21T11:50/http://a.example/doc1.ttl> http:resource <http://a.example/doc1.ttl> ; http:headers <H> }

16:55:15 <ericP>                 </2011-12-21T11:50/http://a.example/doc1.ttl>: { <s1> <p1> <o1> }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: </2011-12-21T11:50/http://a.example/doc1.ttl>: { <s1> <p1> <o1> }

16:55:19 <ericP> does that capture likely designs?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: does that capture likely designs?

16:55:28 <AndyS> s/semantics/data/
16:55:49 <AndyS> PatH: Will write up my point.

Patrick Hayes: Will write up my point.

16:56:27 <PatH> did we lose richard again?

Patrick Hayes: did we lose richard again?

16:56:34 <ericP> q+

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+

16:56:42 <davidwood> zakim, who is talking?

David Wood: zakim, who is talking?

16:56:42 <AndyS> scribe+

scribe+

16:56:54 <Zakim> davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (64%), Eric (14%)

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (64%), Eric (14%)

16:57:11 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:57:11 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:57:23 <MacTed> scribe was breaking up

Ted Thibodeau: scribe was breaking up

16:57:30 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:57:42 <AndyS> Oh dear

Oh dear

16:58:33 <PatH> scrumpy rules.

Patrick Hayes: scrumpy rules.

16:58:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:58:46 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me

zakim, IPcaller is me

16:58:46 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:58:48 <PatH> noise...

Patrick Hayes: noise...

16:58:54 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute AndyS

Jeremy Carroll: Zakim, mute AndyS

16:58:54 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should now be muted

16:59:30 <AndyS> ericP: try to cover 3 cases

Eric Prud'hommeaux: try to cover 3 cases

16:59:40 <AndyS> ... stores in RDF DB

... stores in RDF DB

16:59:49 <AndyS> ... store in doc 1 and add header to dft graph

... store in doc 1 and add header to dft graph

16:59:55 <davidwood> EricP: See his syntax above, where someone GETs graphs.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: See his syntax above, where someone GETs graphs. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

17:00:11 <cygri> it covers mine

Richard Cyganiak: it covers mine

17:00:12 <AndyS> ... store in doc1 in an dft doc nfo on this

... store in doc1 in an dft doc nfo on this

17:00:25 <AndyS> I am scribing

I am scribing

17:00:40 <PatH> it covers enough to give rise to much discussion...

Patrick Hayes: it covers enough to give rise to much discussion...

17:01:00 <AndyS> sandro (is unclear to the scribe)

sandro (is unclear to the scribe)

17:01:15 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

17:01:36 <PatH> sandro: may be other cases.

Sandro Hawke: may be other cases. [ Scribe Assist by Patrick Hayes ]

17:01:42 <davidwood> EricP has covered the two variants of the use case as I have seen them.

David Wood: EricP has covered the two variants of the use case as I have seen them.

17:01:55 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

17:01:58 <AndyS> ack me

ack me

17:02:01 <ericP> ack me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me

17:02:22 <AndyS> I'll pass

I'll pass

17:02:36 <davidwood> ack Sandro

David Wood: ack Sandro

17:02:38 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

17:02:50 <ericP> scribenick: ericP

(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)

17:03:22 <ericP> sandro: [silence]

Sandro Hawke: [silence]

17:03:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

17:04:01 <davidwood> Zakim must be forked.  I hear some.

David Wood: Zakim must be forked. I hear some.

17:04:03 <AndyS> zakim, IPCAller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCAller is me

17:04:03 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

17:04:08 <PatH> Zakim is getting tired.

Patrick Hayes: Zakim is getting tired.

17:04:23 <AndyS> david: bad conditions

David Wood: bad conditions [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

17:04:38 <AndyS> ... regards for the holidays

Andy Seaborne: ... regards for the holidays

17:04:43 <AndyS> ADJOURNED

Andy Seaborne: ADJOURNED

17:04:47 <yvesr> bye!

Yves Raimond: bye!

17:04:47 <pchampin> thanks

Pierre-Antoine Champin: thanks

17:04:48 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

17:04:49 <AndyS> next meeting Jan 4.

Andy Seaborne: next meeting Jan 4.

17:04:50 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

17:04:50 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: -JeremyCarroll

17:04:51 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

17:04:52 <Guus> bye

Guus Schreiber: bye

17:04:53 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

17:04:54 <AZ> bye

Antoine Zimmermann: bye

17:04:54 <PatH> eric, can you email that example?

Patrick Hayes: eric, can you email that example?

17:04:55 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

17:04:56 <cygri> thanks david!

Richard Cyganiak: thanks david!

17:04:59 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

17:04:59 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

17:05:01 <Zakim> -pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin

17:05:02 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

17:05:05 <Zakim> -Eric

Zakim IRC Bot: -Eric

17:05:10 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

17:05:14 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

17:05:15 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer

17:05:16 <PatH> muted merry Xmas to all.

Patrick Hayes: muted merry Xmas to all.

17:06:02 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus



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