<sandro> PRESENT: davidwood, gavinc, zwu2, AlexHall, sandro, Souri, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, Mischa, Pierre, Ian, Andy, Richard, NickH, Ivan, Steve, Danbri, Yves, Guus, ericP, tomayac, PatHayes
<sandro> GUEST: Tim (tlebo) Lebo, RPI
<sandro> REMOTE: pfps, az, ww
11:09:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-rdf-wg-irc ←
11:09:26 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf2wg
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdf2wg ←
11:09:26 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG(F2F)6:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG(F2F)6:00AM ←
11:10:04 <AZ> zakim, who is on the phone?
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
11:10:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see AZ, +1.617.324.aaaa, ??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AZ, +1.617.324.aaaa, ??P2 ←
11:10:11 <yvesr> sandro, we could hear you fairly well over h323
Yves Raimond: sandro, we could hear you fairly well over h323 ←
11:10:23 <yvesr> (a bit better than on zakim)
Yves Raimond: (a bit better than on zakim) ←
11:10:37 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
11:10:37 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-rdf-wg-irc#T11-10-37
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-rdf-wg-irc#T11-10-37 ←
11:10:50 <sandro> we see one very still, very blocky image.
Sandro Hawke: we see one very still, very blocky image. ←
11:10:54 <sandro> Well, we'll have some Zakim-only people, so I think we have to use zakim for audio.
Sandro Hawke: Well, we'll have some Zakim-only people, so I think we have to use zakim for audio. ←
11:11:01 <sandro> new call, 384kbos
Sandro Hawke: new call, 384kbos ←
11:12:34 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
11:12:34 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-rdf-wg-irc#T11-12-34
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-rdf-wg-irc#T11-12-34 ←
11:12:39 <sandro> Meeting: RDF F2F2
11:13:30 <Guus> mischa has offered to scribe the first session
Guus Schreiber: mischa has offered to scribe the first session ←
11:16:08 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
11:17:47 <mischat> Zakim: scribe mischat
11:17:47 <mischat> RRSAgent: scribe mischat
11:17:47 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'scribe mischat ', mischat. Try /msg RRSAgent help
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'scribe mischat ', mischat. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←
11:18:13 <ivan> scribenick: mischat
(Scribe set to Mischa Tuffield)
11:18:20 <mischat> sandro: that was me calling you
Sandro Hawke: that was me calling you ←
11:18:42 <yvesr> we're trying to sip into zakim, so that we can hear you better
Yves Raimond: we're trying to sip into zakim, so that we can hear you better ←
11:19:32 <danbri> scribe: Mischa Tuffield
11:21:24 <Zakim> -??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2 ←
11:21:50 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
11:22:35 <Guus> [david, I'm on the Web client of IRC, so not receiving anything alse]
Guus Schreiber: [david, I'm on the Web client of IRC, so not receiving anything alse] ←
11:23:51 <davidwood> Does someone in London have a Skype ID?
David Wood: Does someone in London have a Skype ID? ←
11:23:59 <davidwood> If so, I can try calling you.
David Wood: If so, I can try calling you. ←
11:24:09 <davidwood> Guus, ack
David Wood: Guus, ack ←
11:25:18 <sandro> We can actually hear you through the H channel - but it's unintelligible.
Sandro Hawke: We can actually hear you through the H channel - but it's unintelligible. ←
11:25:30 <sandro> So please turn off the audio channel.
Sandro Hawke: So please turn off the audio channel. ←
11:26:07 <Zakim> -??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2 ←
11:26:15 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
11:26:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see AZ, +1.617.324.aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AZ, +1.617.324.aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
11:26:24 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
11:26:31 <sandro> zakim, aaaa is MIT_Meeting_Room
Sandro Hawke: zakim, aaaa is MIT_Meeting_Room ←
11:26:31 <Zakim> +MIT_Meeting_Room; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MIT_Meeting_Room; got it ←
11:27:28 <davidwood> I'm sure there is a FOAF tag for that
David Wood: I'm sure there is a FOAF tag for that ←
11:27:44 <swh> what about a language tag?
Steve Harris: what about a language tag? ←
11:27:45 <mischat> as well an inverse foaf property
as well an inverse foaf property ←
11:28:19 <gavinc> Can you turn off the audio on your video?
Gavin Carothers: Can you turn off the audio on your video? ←
11:29:34 <gavinc> Please, can you turn off the audio on your video
Gavin Carothers: Please, can you turn off the audio on your video ←
11:30:30 <sandro> topic: introductions
11:30:43 <AZ> is there a video stream available for remote participants?
Antoine Zimmermann: is there a video stream available for remote participants? ←
11:30:54 <sandro> David Wood, Gavin, Tim Lebo, Alex Hall, Sandro, Scott Bauer, Lee F
Sandro Hawke: David Wood, Gavin, Tim Lebo, Alex Hall, Sandro, Scott Bauer, Lee F ←
11:31:01 <sandro> scribeL mischa
Sandro Hawke: scribeL mischa ←
11:31:04 <danbri> AZ, we tried but nothing yet. Will try again to fix it in next break.
Dan Brickley: AZ, we tried but nothing yet. Will try again to fix it in next break. ←
11:31:07 <sandro> scribe: mischa
11:31:37 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
11:31:40 <mischat> Mischa, Pierre, Ian, Andy, Richard, NickH, Ivan, Steve, Danbri, Yves
Mischa, Pierre, Ian, Andy, Richard, NickH, Ivan, Steve, Danbri, Yves ←
11:31:43 <AndyS> scribenick: mischat
11:31:49 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P4 (77%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P4 (77%) ←
11:31:57 <ww> zakim, remind me of the telephone number please
William Waites: zakim, remind me of the telephone number please ←
11:31:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'remind me of the telephone number', ww
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'remind me of the telephone number', ww ←
11:32:05 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
11:32:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see AZ, MIT_Meeting_Room, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AZ, MIT_Meeting_Room, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P4 ←
11:32:09 <AndyS> We're trying to sort the positioning out now
Andy Seaborne: We're trying to sort the positioning out now ←
11:32:10 <davidwood> zakim, code?
David Wood: zakim, code? ←
11:32:10 <Zakim> the conference code is 733294 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 733294 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), davidwood ←
11:32:12 <sandro> Zakim, what is the code?
Sandro Hawke: Zakim, what is the code? ←
11:32:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 733294 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 733294 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sandro ←
11:32:36 <danbri> zakim, who is speaking?
Dan Brickley: zakim, who is speaking? ←
11:32:47 <sandro> zakim, ??P4 is BBC_Meeting_Room
Sandro Hawke: zakim, ??P4 is BBC_Meeting_Room ←
11:32:47 <Zakim> +BBC_Meeting_Room; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +BBC_Meeting_Room; got it ←
11:32:49 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
11:32:50 <Zakim> danbri, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AZ (34%), ??P4 (64%)
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AZ (34%), ??P4 (64%) ←
11:32:56 <mischat> Guus: is proposing we jump to the first item of the agenda
Guus Schreiber: is proposing we jump to the first item of the agenda ←
11:32:56 <ww> Zakim, ??P2 is ww
William Waites: Zakim, ??P2 is ww ←
11:32:56 <Zakim> +ww; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it ←
11:33:12 <danbri> it's hearing noise from AZ
Dan Brickley: it's hearing noise from AZ ←
11:33:27 <danbri> AZ, can we mute you? you can unmute via bot here
Dan Brickley: AZ, can we mute you? you can unmute via bot here ←
11:33:30 <mischat> can we mute AZ or is that just rude?
can we mute AZ or is that just rude? ←
11:33:32 <danbri> zakim, mute AZ
Dan Brickley: zakim, mute AZ ←
11:33:32 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted ←
11:33:36 <AZ> Zakim, mute me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, mute me ←
11:33:36 <Zakim> AZ was already muted, AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ was already muted, AZ ←
11:33:37 <ww> zakim, mute me
William Waites: zakim, mute me ←
11:33:37 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
11:33:56 <AZ> strange, my phone was muted already
Antoine Zimmermann: strange, my phone was muted already ←
11:34:02 <gavinc> Time for POTS!
Gavin Carothers: Time for POTS! ←
11:34:58 <Zakim> -BBC_Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: -BBC_Meeting_Room ←
11:35:00 <ww> even post is voip these days :)
William Waites: even post is voip these days :) ←
11:35:04 <iand> danbri spending most of this meeting being tied to his chair by power cables
Ian Davis: danbri spending most of this meeting being tied to his chair by power cables ←
11:35:19 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
11:35:29 <cygri> zakim, ??P4 is BBC_Meeting_Room
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, ??P4 is BBC_Meeting_Room ←
11:35:29 <Zakim> +BBC_Meeting_Room; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +BBC_Meeting_Room; got it ←
11:36:08 <mischat> Guus: move to the first item of the agenda, the naming issue
Guus Schreiber: move to the first item of the agenda, the naming issue ←
11:36:23 <pchampin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Participants
Pierre-Antoine Champin: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Participants ←
11:36:32 <pfps> it would be nice if the agenda had pointers to the relevant information.
Peter Patel-Schneider: it would be nice if the agenda had pointers to the relevant information. ←
11:36:33 <danbri> zakim, BBC_Meeting_Room holds mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys
Dan Brickley: zakim, BBC_Meeting_Room holds mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys ←
11:36:33 <Zakim> +mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys; got it ←
11:36:45 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda
Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda ←
11:36:54 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Oct 12 -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda
Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: Oct 12 -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda ←
11:36:59 <danbri> zakim, BBC_Meeting_Room also holds NickH
Dan Brickley: zakim, BBC_Meeting_Room also holds NickH ←
11:36:59 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
11:37:01 <mischat> Guus: first item to discuss and decide on teminology
Guus Schreiber: first item to discuss and decide on teminology ←
11:37:17 <mischat> Guus: based on sandro's g* teminology
Guus Schreiber: based on sandro's g* teminology ←
11:37:26 <mischat> Guus: gbox == graph container
Guus Schreiber: gbox == graph container ←
11:37:35 <mischat> Guus: gsnap == graph or graph set
Guus Schreiber: gsnap == graph or graph set ←
11:37:45 <mischat> Guus: gtext == graph serialisation
Guus Schreiber: gtext == graph serialisation ←
11:37:49 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
11:37:52 <LeeF> "graph set" is misleading because it sounds like a bunch of graphs
Lee Feigenbaum: "graph set" is misleading because it sounds like a bunch of graphs ←
11:38:03 <mischat> ⦠so are these a good place to start?
⦠so are these a good place to start? ←
11:38:15 <mischat> sandro: doesn't remember us talking about a graph set
Sandro Hawke: doesn't remember us talking about a graph set ←
11:39:16 <mischat> ivan: can we use the queue, as I am scribing from here
Ivan Herman: can we use the queue, as I am scribing from here ←
11:39:25 <davidwood> q+ to summarize MIT discussion
David Wood: q+ to summarize MIT discussion ←
11:39:32 <cygri> q+ to propose to drop g-text from the discussion, it doesn't seem to be necessary
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to propose to drop g-text from the discussion, it doesn't seem to be necessary ←
11:39:32 <mischat> sandro: didn't like the term graph-set, and i think the rest of the terms are far
Sandro Hawke: didn't like the term graph-set, and i think the rest of the terms are far ←
11:39:52 <mischat> sandro: we should use the g* terminology informally for the time being
Sandro Hawke: we should use the g* terminology informally for the time being ←
11:40:01 <ivan> +1 to Sandro
Ivan Herman: +1 to Sandro ←
11:40:01 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
11:40:06 <ivan> ack sandro
Ivan Herman: ack sandro ←
11:40:11 <mischat> for the public working set we should use the Guus proposed graph terminology
for the public working set we should use the Guus proposed graph terminology ←
11:40:19 <danbri> ack davidwood
Dan Brickley: ack davidwood ←
11:40:19 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to summarize MIT discussion
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to summarize MIT discussion ←
11:40:23 <mischat> davidwood: had a private conversation with LeeF
David Wood: had a private conversation with LeeF ←
11:40:27 <sandro> sandro: Let's keep using g-* terms if they seem useful, but "graph set" is bad.
Sandro Hawke: Let's keep using g-* terms if they seem useful, but "graph set" is bad. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:40:53 <sandro> david: "graph" itself is too ambiguous.
David Wood: "graph" itself is too ambiguous. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:40:55 <mischat> davidwood: LeeF proposed it graph snapshot, the idea of using graph for gsnap could be an issue
David Wood: LeeF proposed it graph snapshot, the idea of using graph for gsnap could be an issue ←
11:40:59 <mischat> as it is too ambitious
as it is too ambitious ←
11:41:09 <danbri> I can't find much on g-snap, except http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?type-index=public-rdf-wg&index-type=t&keywords=%22graph+set%22&search=Search
Dan Brickley: I can't find much on g-snap, except http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?type-index=public-rdf-wg&index-type=t&keywords=%22graph+set%22&search=Search ←
11:41:18 <iand> terminology summary proposal was at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jul/0092.html
Ian Davis: terminology summary proposal was at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jul/0092.html ←
11:41:34 <danbri> sorry I meant - can't find much on graph set
Dan Brickley: sorry I meant - can't find much on graph set ←
11:41:40 <gavinc> Turtle needs to talk about graph seralizations
Gavin Carothers: Turtle needs to talk about graph seralizations ←
11:41:43 <mischat> cygri: g-snap and g-box pop up a lot, but the g-text term doesn't pop up lots
Richard Cyganiak: g-snap and g-box pop up a lot, but the g-text term doesn't pop up lots ←
11:41:47 <davidwood> There was an earlier proposal to drop g-text. +1 to cygri.
David Wood: There was an earlier proposal to drop g-text. +1 to cygri. ←
11:41:56 <sandro> +1 cygri dropping "g-text" and just using "graph serialization"
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri dropping "g-text" and just using "graph serialization" ←
11:41:56 <mischat> so we might not need an official term for it
so we might not need an official term for it ←
11:41:58 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
11:41:58 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to propose to drop g-text from the discussion, it doesn't seem to be necessary
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to propose to drop g-text from the discussion, it doesn't seem to be necessary ←
11:42:20 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
11:42:28 <davidwood> If we need a term for Turtle, we can always create a term for g-text at that time.
David Wood: If we need a term for Turtle, we can always create a term for g-text at that time. ←
11:42:31 <ivan> ack guus
Ivan Herman: ack guus ←
11:42:36 <mischat> Guus: thinks that graph-set is poor, and gnap-snapshot is a bit geeky
Guus Schreiber: thinks that graph-set is poor, and gnap-snapshot is a bit geeky ←
11:42:41 <danbri> "graph dump?" or has unpleasant associations?
Dan Brickley: "graph dump?" or has unpleasant associations? ←
11:42:43 <danbri> q?
Dan Brickley: q? ←
11:42:58 <gavinc> Is anyone keen on "graph set"?
Gavin Carothers: Is anyone keen on "graph set"? ←
11:43:21 <cygri> +1 to ask whether anyone wants to change the term âRDF graphâ from Concepts
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to ask whether anyone wants to change the term âRDF graphâ from Concepts ←
11:43:22 <sandro> +1 "graph set" sounds a lot like a set of graphs.
Sandro Hawke: +1 "graph set" sounds a lot like a set of graphs. ←
11:43:24 <pchampin> to me "graph set" also sounds like "a set of graphs"
Pierre-Antoine Champin: to me "graph set" also sounds like "a set of graphs" ←
11:43:28 <danbri> gavinc, when I heard "graph set", I thought it meant a g-box, so i guess the intuitions are wrong. And it'll probably annoy mathematicians.
Dan Brickley: gavinc, when I heard "graph set", I thought it meant a g-box, so i guess the intuitions are wrong. And it'll probably annoy mathematicians. ←
11:43:31 <mischat> Guus: requirement for the naming is that they match concepts which new people coming into RDF must be easy to understand
Guus Schreiber: requirement for the naming is that they match concepts which new people coming into RDF must be easy to understand ←
11:43:38 <cygri> q+ to ask whether anyone wants to change the term âRDF graphâ from Concepts
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to ask whether anyone wants to change the term âRDF graphâ from Concepts ←
11:43:40 <davidwood> "graph version"?
David Wood: "graph version"? ←
11:43:47 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
11:43:47 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask whether anyone wants to change the term âRDF graphâ from Concepts
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to ask whether anyone wants to change the term âRDF graphâ from Concepts ←
11:43:48 <LeeF> I don't imagine that these are really terms that are going to need to be taught in beginners' tutorials, are they?
Lee Feigenbaum: I don't imagine that these are really terms that are going to need to be taught in beginners' tutorials, are they? ←
11:43:56 <mischat> Guus: graph set is a bit geeky, and might lead people to think that it is a "collection of graphs"
Guus Schreiber: graph set is a bit geeky, and might lead people to think that it is a "collection of graphs" ←
11:43:57 <danbri> q+ to suggest Graph Image (like a picture of frozen snapshot, notion ... same as machine images, .iso etc)
Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest Graph Image (like a picture of frozen snapshot, notion ... same as machine images, .iso etc) ←
11:44:10 <AZ> why not "RDF graph" as in all Sem Web specs?
Antoine Zimmermann: why not "RDF graph" as in all Sem Web specs? ←
11:44:20 <ivan> g+
Ivan Herman: g+ ←
11:44:22 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
11:44:33 <AZ> "graph" is totally ambiguous but "RDF graph" is well defined
Antoine Zimmermann: "graph" is totally ambiguous but "RDF graph" is well defined ←
11:44:56 <mischat> cygri: notes that the term "RDF graph" matches are use of gsnap, would we have to renamed the term in the RDF Concepts document
Richard Cyganiak: notes that the term "RDF graph" matches are use of gsnap, would we have to renamed the term in the RDF Concepts document ←
11:44:59 <ivan> ack danbri
Ivan Herman: ack danbri ←
11:44:59 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest Graph Image (like a picture of frozen snapshot, notion ... same as machine images, .iso etc)
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to suggest Graph Image (like a picture of frozen snapshot, notion ... same as machine images, .iso etc) ←
11:45:02 <davidwood> Is it? Or is it equally ambiguous
David Wood: Is it? Or is it equally ambiguous ←
11:45:12 <mischat> danbri: suggest "RDF image" as a term for g-snap
Dan Brickley: suggest "RDF image" as a term for g-snap ←
11:45:20 <danbri> ack me
Dan Brickley: ack me ←
11:45:20 <sandro> "Image" is okay, but not as good as "snapshop", for me.
Sandro Hawke: "Image" is okay, but not as good as "snapshop", for me. ←
11:45:23 <mischat> danbri: the term image, as in something which doesn't change
Dan Brickley: the term image, as in something which doesn't change ←
11:45:28 <davidwood> concur
David Wood: concur ←
11:45:36 <davidwood> (with Sandro)
David Wood: (with Sandro) ←
11:45:38 <iand> i like davidwood's "graph version"
Ian Davis: i like davidwood's "graph version" ←
11:45:41 <pfps> +1 to ivan
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to ivan ←
11:45:44 <mischat> ivan: we should try to use the term "graph" consistently for the g-snap
Ivan Herman: we should try to use the term "graph" consistently for the g-snap ←
11:45:49 <danbri> graph version works for me
Dan Brickley: graph version works for me ←
11:46:13 <cygri> +1 to ivan
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to ivan ←
11:46:17 <mischat> Guus: this would make the smallest change to the documents
Guus Schreiber: this would make the smallest change to the documents ←
11:46:18 <danbri> i might try the 'image' metaphor in supporting materials. people mostly will just use 'graph' and be vague, whatever we decide.
Dan Brickley: i might try the 'image' metaphor in supporting materials. people mostly will just use 'graph' and be vague, whatever we decide. ←
11:46:19 <sandro> strawpoll between "RDF Graph", "Graph Snapshot", and "Graph Version" ?
Sandro Hawke: strawpoll between "RDF Graph", "Graph Snapshot", and "Graph Version" ? ←
11:46:29 <davidwood> -1 to Ivan (sorry). We really need to be unambiguous.
David Wood: -1 to Ivan (sorry). We really need to be unambiguous. ←
11:47:01 <mischat> Guus: by default we should use the RDF graph to mean the g-snap
Guus Schreiber: by default we should use the RDF graph to mean the g-snap ←
11:47:02 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
11:47:15 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
11:47:18 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
11:47:39 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
11:47:57 <mischat> Guus: graph serialisation and graph container, are we happy with this?
Guus Schreiber: graph serialisation and graph container, are we happy with this? ←
11:48:10 <mischat> Guus: is all the discussion around g-snap then right?
Guus Schreiber: is all the discussion around g-snap then right? ←
11:48:32 <mischat> cygri: davidwood are suggesting we change the term "graph" in the RDF concepts
Richard Cyganiak: davidwood are suggesting we change the term "graph" in the RDF concepts ←
11:48:34 <mischat> ?
? ←
11:48:42 <AZ> -1 to rename "RDF graph"
Antoine Zimmermann: -1 to rename "RDF graph" ←
11:48:43 <mischat> cygri: as per your "-1" early
Richard Cyganiak: as per your "-1" early ←
11:49:08 <davidwood> cygri, yes. I propose that RDF Graph as defined in RDF Concepts be changed to "graph snapshot" or another term that we agree upon.
David Wood: cygri, yes. I propose that RDF Graph as defined in RDF Concepts be changed to "graph snapshot" or another term that we agree upon. ←
11:49:24 <mischat> sandro: agrees that it would be hardwork to change the term in the concepts, but agrees that it would be beneficial to make it less ambiguous
Sandro Hawke: agrees that it would be hardwork to change the term in the concepts, but agrees that it would be beneficial to make it less ambiguous ←
11:49:36 <gavinc> Can we write the question in IRC?
Gavin Carothers: Can we write the question in IRC? ←
11:49:42 <mischat> Guus: keeping it is as, RDF graph for g-snap?
Guus Schreiber: keeping it is as, RDF graph for g-snap? ←
11:49:48 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
11:50:02 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
11:50:03 <swh> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
11:50:04 <pchampin> +1
11:50:07 <davidwood> -1
David Wood: -1 ←
11:50:10 <gavinc> -0
Gavin Carothers: -0 ←
11:50:10 <mischat> +1
+1 ←
11:50:13 <tomayac> =1
Thomas Steiner: =1 ←
11:50:15 <sandro> 0 very conflicted
Sandro Hawke: 0 very conflicted ←
11:50:15 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
11:50:17 <AndyS> Strawpoll -- g-snap ==> RDF graph
Andy Seaborne: Strawpoll -- g-snap ==> RDF graph ←
11:50:17 <iand> +1
11:50:18 <zwu2> +1
11:50:21 <AlexHall> +1
11:50:25 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
11:50:26 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
11:50:31 <tomayac> +1 (fscking US keyboard)
Thomas Steiner: +1 (fscking US keyboard) ←
11:50:33 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
11:50:34 <AZ> (and banish the use of "graph" alone, "graph" != "RDF graph")
Antoine Zimmermann: (and banish the use of "graph" alone, "graph" != "RDF graph") ←
11:50:36 <pfps> +1
11:50:39 <LeeF> 0
Lee Feigenbaum: 0 ←
11:50:59 <tlebo> q+
Tim Lebo: q+ ←
11:51:02 <pchampin> q+
11:51:03 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
11:51:07 <yvesr> i guess it just needs clarification
Yves Raimond: i guess it just needs clarification ←
11:51:13 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
11:51:14 <iand> q+
11:51:25 <mischat> davidwood: is surprised that we are choosing to keep the term as it, given the issues we faced early on in the WG
David Wood: is surprised that we are choosing to keep the term as it, given the issues we faced early on in the WG ←
11:51:39 <gavinc> WE might know that, my -0 is that I'm not sure that anyone else will be clear about that.
Gavin Carothers: WE might know that, my -0 is that I'm not sure that anyone else will be clear about that. ←
11:51:48 <swh> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
11:51:48 <iand> q-
11:51:52 <swh> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
11:51:57 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, unmute me ←
11:51:57 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should no longer be muted ←
11:52:12 <tlebo> +1 "RDF Graph" : as long as "Graph" is contrasted with the other terms (container, serialization), it clarifies what it is and is not.
Tim Lebo: +1 "RDF Graph" : as long as "Graph" is contrasted with the other terms (container, serialization), it clarifies what it is and is not. ←
11:52:13 <pfps> -1 to david's sentiments - RDF graph is not confusing in itself, the issue was that there are other notions that did not have names, and they were bleeding into the only name that we had
Peter Patel-Schneider: -1 to david's sentiments - RDF graph is not confusing in itself, the issue was that there are other notions that did not have names, and they were bleeding into the only name that we had ←
11:52:16 <tlebo> q?
Tim Lebo: q? ←
11:52:17 <mischat> Guus: states that we learnt from the early discussions, and by tightening up the other definitions like g-text and g-box
Guus Schreiber: states that we learnt from the early discussions, and by tightening up the other definitions like g-text and g-box ←
11:52:19 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
11:52:22 <iand> +1 to pfps
11:52:24 <cygri> +1 to guus. we lacked a good term for g�-box. once that's fixed, it'll be easier to be clear and unambiguous
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to guus. we lacked a good term for g�-box. once that's fixed, it'll be easier to be clear and unambiguous ←
11:52:36 <mischat> Guus: we would be making the term "RDF Graph" less ambiguous
Guus Schreiber: we would be making the term "RDF Graph" less ambiguous ←
11:53:02 <pfps> +1 to tlebo
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to tlebo ←
11:53:04 <tlebo> q-
Tim Lebo: q- ←
11:53:07 <ivan> ack tlebo
Ivan Herman: ack tlebo ←
11:53:10 <ivan> ack pchampin
Ivan Herman: ack pchampin ←
11:53:14 <AZ> +1 tlebo
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 tlebo ←
11:53:17 <mischat> tlebo: by fixing terms for the other two terms, would make it term graph == g-snap
Tim Lebo: by fixing terms for the other two terms, would make it term graph == g-snap ←
11:53:20 <danbri> do all these definitions have identity conditions for the things they're naming?
Dan Brickley: do all these definitions have identity conditions for the things they're naming? ←
11:53:23 <AZ> q-
Antoine Zimmermann: q- ←
11:53:25 <sandro> tlebo: If we have "Graph Container" and "Graph Serialization", then "Graph" becomes clearer, and renaming it would be a problem.
Tim Lebo: If we have "Graph Container" and "Graph Serialization", then "Graph" becomes clearer, and renaming it would be a problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:53:47 <yvesr> q?
Yves Raimond: q? ←
11:53:49 <gavinc> Where "Graph" is "RDF Graph" yes?
Gavin Carothers: Where "Graph" is "RDF Graph" yes? ←
11:53:53 <davidwood> The one thing we get out of the continued use of the term "graph" for a g-snap is that it can be considered a proper set.
David Wood: The one thing we get out of the continued use of the term "graph" for a g-snap is that it can be considered a proper set. ←
11:53:56 <ivan> ack swh
Ivan Herman: ack swh ←
11:54:04 <tlebo> yes, where "Graph" becomes "RDF Graph"
Tim Lebo: yes, where "Graph" becomes "RDF Graph" ←
11:54:09 <mischat> pchampin: states that the official term for the g-snap should be Graph, and having the other two terms defined would make it less ambiguous
Pierre-Antoine Champin: states that the official term for the g-snap should be Graph, and having the other two terms defined would make it less ambiguous ←
11:54:25 <AlexHall> q+
11:54:33 <mischat> swh: said that the term graph hasn't really hurt anyone in practice
Steve Harris: said that the term graph hasn't really hurt anyone in practice ←
11:54:39 <mischat> davidwood: suggests that we move on
David Wood: suggests that we move on ←
11:54:50 <AZ> g-snaps should be "RDF Graph" not "Graph"
Antoine Zimmermann: g-snaps should be "RDF Graph" not "Graph" ←
11:55:06 <sandro> PROPOSED: In our documents, we'll use the terms "RDF Graph" for g-snap, "Graph Container" for g-box, and "Graph Serialization" for g-text
PROPOSED: In our documents, we'll use the terms "RDF Graph" for g-snap, "Graph Container" for g-box, and "Graph Serialization" for g-text ←
11:55:16 <mischat> Guus: resolution In our documents we will use the term RDF Graph for notion of the g-snap
Guus Schreiber: resolution In our documents we will use the term RDF Graph for notion of the g-snap ←
11:55:36 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
11:55:41 <davidwood> 0
David Wood: 0 ←
11:55:41 <mischat> Guus: any objections to the proposal
Guus Schreiber: any objections to the proposal ←
11:55:41 <pchampin> +1
11:55:42 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
11:55:43 <pfps> +1
11:55:44 <iand> +1
11:55:45 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
11:55:46 <sandro> (with a little hesitation, but... it's okay.)
Sandro Hawke: (with a little hesitation, but... it's okay.) ←
11:55:46 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
11:55:48 <mischat> Guus: any +1's
Guus Schreiber: any +1's ←
11:55:48 <cygri> -0. still not sure about graph container
Richard Cyganiak: -0. still not sure about graph container ←
11:55:48 <zwu2> +1
11:55:52 <tomayac> +1
Thomas Steiner: +1 ←
11:55:55 <ww> 0+
William Waites: 0+ ←
11:55:56 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
11:56:01 <mischat> Guus: thanks for the first resolution
Guus Schreiber: thanks for the first resolution ←
11:56:01 <gavinc> -0 graph container vs. dataset seems a bit confused
Gavin Carothers: -0 graph container vs. dataset seems a bit confused ←
11:56:01 <yvesr> me :)
Yves Raimond: me :) ←
11:56:05 <sandro> RESOLVED: In our documents, we'll use the terms "RDF Graph" for g-snap, "Graph Container" for g-box, and "Graph Serialization" for g-text
RESOLVED: In our documents, we'll use the terms "RDF Graph" for g-snap, "Graph Container" for g-box, and "Graph Serialization" for g-text ←
11:56:34 <AlexHall> q-
11:56:35 <mischat> Guus: we just won on numbers of hours chatting about graphs :)
Guus Schreiber: we just won on numbers of hours chatting about graphs :) ←
11:56:56 <mischat> Guus: topic : named graphs discussion
Guus Schreiber: topic : named graphs discussion ←
11:57:28 <mischat> Guus: we have 3 major contributions here Richard, Tim, and who â¦
Guus Schreiber: we have 3 major contributions here Richard, Tim, and Sandro ⦠←
11:57:42 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts
Tim Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts ←
11:57:45 <mischat> Guus: tlebo as you are the guest, please go ahead and describe your pro posable
Guus Schreiber: tlebo as you are the guest, please go ahead and describe your pro posable ←
11:57:53 <ivan> s/who/Sandro/
11:58:16 <mischat> tlebo: ^^ developing a method for describing different views of the same events
Tim Lebo: ^^ developing a method for describing different views of the same events ←
11:58:35 <mischat> tlebo: OWL ontology, which uses RDF to make assertions about the world
Tim Lebo: OWL ontology, which uses RDF to make assertions about the world ←
11:58:53 <mischat> tlebo: we will have to manage chunks of this knowledge using named graphs
Tim Lebo: we will have to manage chunks of this knowledge using named graphs ←
11:58:55 <sandro> topic: Named Graphs (?)
11:59:28 <mischat> davidwood: the provenance DM has just been put into FPWD
David Wood: the provenance DM has just been put into FPWD ←
12:00:05 <mischat> davidwood: what is the relationship between this document and the owl provenance DM?
David Wood: what is the relationship between this document and the owl provenance DM? ←
12:00:50 <mischat> tlebo: we are using named graphs to manipulate statements from different sources
Tim Lebo: we are using named graphs to manipulate statements from different sources ←
12:01:07 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:01:35 <mischat> tlebo: the end result, using the provenance OWL ontology, the contents of a named graph would be triples asserted by different agents
Tim Lebo: the end result, using the provenance OWL ontology, the contents of a named graph would be triples asserted by different agents ←
12:01:59 <mischat> Guus: found the statement at the beginning defining what a named graph is
Guus Schreiber: found the statement at the beginning defining what a named graph is ←
12:02:20 <davidwood> Is Tim's (Jeremy's) "named graph" a g-snap?
David Wood: Is Tim's (Jeremy's) "named graph" a g-snap? ←
12:02:25 <tlebo> "sandro's document"?
Tim Lebo: "sandro's document"? ←
12:02:27 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Options
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Options ←
12:02:32 <ww> I feel compelled to mention the statement identifier approach again so we can actually talk *directly* about "triples asserted by different agents" instead of being forced to use named graphs as an indirection
William Waites: I feel compelled to mention the statement identifier approach again so we can actually talk *directly* about "triples asserted by different agents" instead of being forced to use named graphs as an indirection ←
12:02:35 <mischat> Guus: you state in one of these assertions is that the named-graph is global
Guus Schreiber: you state in one of these assertions is that the named-graph is global ←
12:02:37 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
12:03:00 <davidwood> Similarly, is the "global RDF graph" a g-box?
David Wood: Similarly, is the "global RDF graph" a g-box? ←
12:03:01 <mischat> Guus: these named graphs are more like files, more like g-boxs
Guus Schreiber: these named graphs are more like files, more like g-boxs ←
12:03:25 <mischat> tlebo: could adopt of new terminology after this meeting
Tim Lebo: could adopt of new terminology after this meeting ←
12:03:52 <mischat> sandro: tlebo's document doesn't assume global naming, it assumes local naming
Sandro Hawke: tlebo's document doesn't assume global naming, it assumes local naming ←
12:03:52 <danbri> q+ re "Named graphs let you specify a subset of the "global" RDF graph."; that has a kind of mystical feel to it. The global graph would be all triples imaginable? Full of contradictions etc?
Dan Brickley: q+ re "Named graphs let you specify a subset of the "global" RDF graph."; that has a kind of mystical feel to it. The global graph would be all triples imaginable? Full of contradictions etc? ←
12:04:12 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
12:04:49 <mischat> Guus: doesn't understand the statement "Named graphs let you specify a subset of the "global" RDF graph."
Guus Schreiber: doesn't understand the statement "Named graphs let you specify a subset of the "global" RDF graph." ←
12:05:14 <danbri> q?
Dan Brickley: q? ←
12:05:15 <mischat> sandro: in our current world, you need a sparql-endpoint URI and a ⦠(sorry sandro ?)
Sandro Hawke: in our current world, you need a sparql-endpoint URI and a ⦠(sorry sandro ?) ←
12:05:24 <ivan> ack danbri
Ivan Herman: ack danbri ←
12:05:24 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to discuss "Named graphs let you specify a subset of the "global" RDF graph."; that has a kind of mystical feel to it. The global graph would be all triples
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to discuss "Named graphs let you specify a subset of the "global" RDF graph."; that has a kind of mystical feel to it. The global graph would be all triples ←
12:05:28 <Zakim> ... imaginable? Full of contradictions etc?
Zakim IRC Bot: ... imaginable? Full of contradictions etc? ←
12:05:35 <mischat> danbri: "Named graphs let you specify a subset of the "global" RDF graph." <-- dan was thinking about the Web not about SPARQL
Dan Brickley: "Named graphs let you specify a subset of the "global" RDF graph." <-- dan was thinking about the Web not about SPARQL ←
12:05:56 <mischat> danbri: thinks that is more sensible in a SPARQL context not the RDF one
Dan Brickley: thinks that is more sensible in a SPARQL context not the RDF one ←
12:06:12 <sandro> sandro: in our current world, you need a sparql-endpoint URI and the tag IRI of the graph within the endpoints dataset. So you need 2 URIs to name a graph. This is unforunate, and not in keeping with web architecture.
Sandro Hawke: in our current world, you need a sparql-endpoint URI and the tag IRI of the graph within the endpoints dataset. So you need 2 URIs to name a graph. This is unforunate, and not in keeping with web architecture. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:06:37 <mischat> davidwood: it sounds like a top-down approach
David Wood: it sounds like a top-down approach ←
12:06:46 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
12:06:46 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:06:53 <mischat> tlebo: we are talking about a "RDF consumer" based approach
Tim Lebo: we are talking about a "RDF consumer" based approach ←
12:08:22 <ww> +1
William Waites: +1 ←
12:08:27 <mischat> danbri: we have presented RDF to people, we have been criticised for trying to make a giant database for the web, we need to consider named graphs as something which would enable decentralisation
Dan Brickley: we have presented RDF to people, we have been criticised for trying to make a giant database for the web, we need to consider named graphs as something which would enable decentralisation ←
12:08:27 <danbri> blah blah pluralism blah
Dan Brickley: blah blah pluralism blah ←
12:08:37 <gavinc> Named graphs are about decentrializations and pluralism
Gavin Carothers: Named graphs are about decentrializations and pluralism ←
12:08:40 <cygri> +1 to the "blah blah" part
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to the "blah blah" part ←
12:08:43 <ivan> ack Souri
Ivan Herman: ack Souri ←
12:08:47 <danbri> basically we got a lot of pushback for seeming to naively believe all RDF could be merged into a single flat unified triple db
Dan Brickley: basically we got a lot of pushback for seeming to naively believe all RDF could be merged into a single flat unified triple db ←
12:08:50 <mischat> danbri: asked please do not go down a path of massive giant graph
Dan Brickley: asked please do not go down a path of massive giant graph ←
12:09:30 <mischat> Souri: in the triples-store world, you need to definite the sparql endpoint URL and a graph name.
Souripriya Das: in the triples-store world, you need to definite the sparql endpoint URL and a graph name. ←
12:09:35 <danbri> Named Graphs is our comeback, where we say 'nah, we are more pragmatic, ... named graphs are different datasets offering their own perspective into the Web, without need or pressure for global consistency with every other piece of rdf'
Dan Brickley: Named Graphs is our comeback, where we say 'nah, we are more pragmatic, ... named graphs are different datasets offering their own perspective into the Web, without need or pressure for global consistency with every other piece of rdf' ←
12:09:37 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:09:56 <yvesr> mischat: davidwood
Mischa Tuffield: davidwood [ Scribe Assist by Yves Raimond ] ←
12:10:12 <danbri> (ie. there isn't (sorry timbl) a giant Global graph as such (except for the happy smaller subset of RDF graphs that happen at some given point to be true); rather we have a graph-of-graphs)
Dan Brickley: (ie. there isn't (sorry timbl) a giant Global graph as such (except for the happy smaller subset of RDF graphs that happen at some given point to be true); rather we have a graph-of-graphs) ←
12:10:35 <sandro> that's tlebo
Sandro Hawke: that's tlebo ←
12:10:51 <mischat> Guus: any more questions for tim?
Guus Schreiber: any more questions for tim? ←
12:11:06 <ivan> zakim, BBC_Meeting_Room also has Thomas
Ivan Herman: zakim, BBC_Meeting_Room also has Thomas ←
12:11:06 <Zakim> +Thomas; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Thomas; got it ←
12:11:16 <mischat> Guus: please sandro go through your email
Guus Schreiber: please sandro go through your email ←
12:11:35 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Options
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Options ←
12:12:00 <mischat> sandro: has been thinking about how to make progress on graphs, finds the subject overwhelming
Sandro Hawke: has been thinking about how to make progress on graphs, finds the subject overwhelming ←
12:12:19 <mischat> sandro: at a high-level the above document should capture our goals ^^
Sandro Hawke: at a high-level the above document should capture our goals ^^ ←
12:12:30 <mischat> sandro: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Options
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Options ←
12:12:57 <mischat> sandro: 3 difference things we need to do 1. come up with syntaxes for conveying datasets
Sandro Hawke: 3 difference things we need to do 1. come up with syntaxes for conveying datasets ←
12:13:17 <mischat> sandro: trig being the big contender, and nquads is there too
Sandro Hawke: trig being the big contender, and nquads is there too ←
12:13:34 <mischat> ⦠the 2nd area, is about vocabularies about conveying datasets
⦠the 2nd area, is about vocabularies about conveying datasets ←
12:13:48 <gavinc> Graph Seralizations Strawman: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graphs-In-Turtle
Gavin Carothers: Graph Seralizations Strawman: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graphs-In-Turtle ←
12:14:18 <mischat> sandro: 1 is datatypes for documents, 2 plain or RDF strings, 3 reification vocabulary
Sandro Hawke: 1 is datatypes for documents, 2 plain or RDF strings, 3 reification vocabulary ←
12:14:37 <mischat> ivan: doesn't understand the difference between 2.1 and 2.2
Ivan Herman: doesn't understand the difference between 2.1 and 2.2 ←
12:14:49 <davidwood> q+ to ask how Sandro's proposal relates to the way graphs are named in some currently implemented RDF databases.
David Wood: q+ to ask how Sandro's proposal relates to the way graphs are named in some currently implemented RDF databases. ←
12:15:01 <AndyS> 2.1 is "<s><p><o>"^^rdf:turtle
Andy Seaborne: 2.1 is "<s><p><o>"^^rdf:turtle ←
12:15:07 <cygri> :G1 owl:sameAs ":s :p :o"^^rdf:Turtle
Richard Cyganiak: :G1 owl:sameAs ":s :p :o"^^rdf:Turtle ←
12:15:22 <cygri> :G1 rdf:turtleSerialization ":s :p :o"
Richard Cyganiak: :G1 rdf:turtleSerialization ":s :p :o" ←
12:15:23 <mischat> sandro: in both cases string in RDF, in 2.1 the datatype is like turtle, so that the value space is an RDF graph, in 2.2 it is a string, so we some predicate which states that the value is a graph
Sandro Hawke: in both cases string in RDF, in 2.1 the datatype is like turtle, so that the value space is an RDF graph, in 2.2 it is a string, so we some predicate which states that the value is a graph ←
12:15:37 <danbri> do we have datatype URI conventions for Mime types yet? eg. foo:application/rdf+xml ?
Dan Brickley: do we have datatype URI conventions for Mime types yet? eg. foo:application/rdf+xml ? ←
12:15:57 <mischat> sandro: the three ways above do not require any change to syntax
Sandro Hawke: the three ways above do not require any change to syntax ←
12:16:22 <mischat> Guus: are these an alternative for things in 1
Guus Schreiber: are these an alternative for things in 1 ←
12:17:01 <gavinc> danbri, don't I wish
Gavin Carothers: danbri, don't I wish ←
12:17:06 <mischat> sandro: we could do both, but not necessary
Sandro Hawke: we could do both, but not necessary ←
12:17:06 <mischat> Guus: we could have a stawpoll on this later
Guus Schreiber: we could have a stawpoll on this later ←
12:17:06 <mischat> sandro: too early for a resolution
Sandro Hawke: too early for a resolution ←
12:17:09 <danbri> (has anyone stress-tested RDF stores with multi-gigabyte string literals?)
Dan Brickley: (has anyone stress-tested RDF stores with multi-gigabyte string literals?) ←
12:17:35 <gavinc> danbari, yes, they all broke horrigly with even megabyte size literals
Gavin Carothers: danbari, yes, they all broke horrigly with even megabyte size literals ←
12:17:36 <mischat> sandro: 3rd area, if you get sent data outputted from a decision in 1 or 2, what do you do with the data upon receipt
Sandro Hawke: 3rd area, if you get sent data outputted from a decision in 1 or 2, what do you do with the data upon receipt ←
12:17:37 <ww> danbri: i believe so, but clearly not a strong enough convention or best practice that i can't find the vocabulary again with google without trying very hard
Dan Brickley: i believe so, but clearly not a strong enough convention or best practice that i can't find the vocabulary again with google without trying very hard [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ] ←
12:17:44 <AndyS> [ignore SPARQL "FROM" and "FROM NAMED"] +1 and sort out later
Andy Seaborne: [ignore SPARQL "FROM" and "FROM NAMED"] +1 and sort out later ←
12:18:13 <mischat> sandro: i.e. what are you supposed to do when you get a file with a default graph for example
Sandro Hawke: i.e. what are you supposed to do when you get a file with a default graph for example ←
12:18:36 <cygri> q+ to ask what the association between URIs and resources in plain RDF is in Sandro's taxonomy
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to ask what the association between URIs and resources in plain RDF is in Sandro's taxonomy ←
12:18:46 <danbri> re 2.1. the latest I found from TAG is this http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/01-uriMediaType-9 ...debate still between new URI scheme vs http://-prefixed names
Dan Brickley: re 2.1. the latest I found from TAG is this http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/01-uriMediaType-9 ...debate still between new URI scheme vs http://-prefixed names ←
12:18:46 <davidwood> danbri, the internals of several RDF stores that I am aware of (Mulgara, Sesame, OWLIM) would NOT handle multi-gigabyte strings at all well. That is contrary to their design presumptions.
David Wood: danbri, the internals of several RDF stores that I am aware of (Mulgara, Sesame, OWLIM) would NOT handle multi-gigabyte strings at all well. That is contrary to their design presumptions. ←
12:18:55 <mischat> sandro: another big question, are we naming graphs on a global scale
Sandro Hawke: another big question, are we naming graphs on a global scale ←
12:20:08 <mischat> davidwood: is curious how this relates this to RDF databases, i.e. we don't seem to acknowledge that there is no mention of common use cases in RDF stores
David Wood: is curious how this relates this to RDF databases, i.e. we don't seem to acknowledge that there is no mention of common use cases in RDF stores ←
12:20:37 <mischat> sandro: this that all triplestore are agnostic to the semantics of the named graphs
Sandro Hawke: this that all triplestore are agnostic to the semantics of the named graphs ←
12:21:14 <mischat> sandro: so if you blindly interact with datasets across the web, then this isn't an issue
Sandro Hawke: so if you blindly interact with datasets across the web, then this isn't an issue ←
12:21:32 <AndyS> HTTP GET /
Andy Seaborne: HTTP GET / ←
12:21:46 <mischat> davidwood: thinks that the SPARQL service verb is going this way, where there is automated consumption of datasets on the web
David Wood: thinks that the SPARQL service verb is going this way, where there is automated consumption of datasets on the web ←
12:21:58 <AndyS> HTTP GET http://example/dataset?query=...
Andy Seaborne: HTTP GET http://example/dataset?query=... ←
12:21:59 <swh> I'm not sure that SPARQL stores are semantics-neutral
Steve Harris: I'm not sure that SPARQL stores are semantics-neutral ←
12:22:01 <gavinc> q+
Gavin Carothers: q+ ←
12:22:06 <mischat> davidwood: doesn't think that the semantics and the implementations are that far apart
David Wood: doesn't think that the semantics and the implementations are that far apart ←
12:22:10 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
12:22:13 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
12:22:13 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask what the association between URIs and resources in plain RDF is in Sandro's taxonomy
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to ask what the association between URIs and resources in plain RDF is in Sandro's taxonomy ←
12:22:14 <ivan> ack davidwood
Ivan Herman: ack davidwood ←
12:22:17 <swh> at the very least it effects the optimisers
Steve Harris: at the very least it effects the optimisers ←
12:22:17 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask how Sandro's proposal relates to the way graphs are named in some currently implemented RDF databases.
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to ask how Sandro's proposal relates to the way graphs are named in some currently implemented RDF databases. ←
12:23:08 <mischat> cygri: trying to make sense of your options, and what the options mean and what effects. If you look at RDF 1.0 and we look at the association between URIs and resource
Richard Cyganiak: trying to make sense of your options, and what the options mean and what effects. If you look at RDF 1.0 and we look at the association between URIs and resource ←
12:23:21 <mischat> cygri: where does this association fall in your taxonomy of options
Richard Cyganiak: where does this association fall in your taxonomy of options ←
12:23:53 <mischat> sandro: the URI is naming a person globally, this should be a 3.1 thing, from sandro's breakdown
Sandro Hawke: the URI is naming a person globally, this should be a 3.1 thing, from sandro's breakdown ←
12:24:49 <mischat> cygri: is talking about semantics, and how this fits into the semantic document. As is stands the RDF semantics is rather quiet about these
Richard Cyganiak: is talking about semantics, and how this fits into the semantic document. As is stands the RDF semantics is rather quiet about these ←
12:25:04 <mischat> cygri: topics of global naming
Richard Cyganiak: topics of global naming ←
12:25:22 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:25:23 <mischat> sandro: points to the discussion on the mailing list between richard, pat, and peter
Sandro Hawke: points to the discussion on the mailing list between richard, pat, and peter ←
12:26:12 <pfps> It wasn't that Pat and I disagree about how the RDF Semantics work. Instead, we disagree on how this is to be described. I tend to divorce the formal semantics from any surround - I think that Pat tries to push more of this surround into the description of the semantics.
Peter Patel-Schneider: It wasn't that Pat and I disagree about how the RDF Semantics work. Instead, we disagree on how this is to be described. I tend to divorce the formal semantics from any surround - I think that Pat tries to push more of this surround into the description of the semantics. ←
12:26:33 <Guus> [is part of the "Semantics" here not really "Pragmatics"?]
Guus Schreiber: [is part of the "Semantics" here not really "Pragmatics"?] ←
12:26:59 <mischat> sandro: would like to be able to tell developers how to write code which can talk to other peoples datasets
Sandro Hawke: would like to be able to tell developers how to write code which can talk to other peoples datasets ←
12:27:05 <mischat> gavinc: agrees with sandro and thinks that sparql avoids talking about semantics. different datasets will all be implemented differently, and hence their semantics are different
Gavin Carothers: agrees with sandro and thinks that sparql avoids talking about semantics. different datasets will all be implemented differently, and hence their semantics are different ←
12:27:08 <AndyS> 1st choice is surely do we make things people current do "wrong" or do we have something that covers several ways of using URI-association-graph: (central design or community emergent behaviour?) A lot of NGs is local only - who cares? - not published.
Andy Seaborne: 1st choice is surely do we make things people current do "wrong" or do we have something that covers several ways of using URI-association-graph: (central design or community emergent behaviour?) A lot of NGs is local only - who cares? - not published. ←
12:27:15 <mischat> gavinc: is not sure we need perfect semantics
Gavin Carothers: is not sure we need perfect semantics ←
12:27:32 <mischat> gavinc: doesn't think this lack of semantics has hurt anybody
Gavin Carothers: doesn't think this lack of semantics has hurt anybody ←
12:27:57 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:28:05 <mischat> sandro: what gavinc is talking about was captured in 3.3.2
Sandro Hawke: what gavinc is talking about was captured in 3.3.2 ←
12:28:06 <Guus> ack gavinc
Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc ←
12:28:13 <mischat> sandro: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Options#Out-of-Band_Selection
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Options#Out-of-Band_Selection ←
12:28:24 <zwu2> q+
12:28:29 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
12:28:30 <LeeF> q+ to make distinction between what an implementation does and what a user of an implementation does
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to make distinction between what an implementation does and what a user of an implementation does ←
12:28:45 <mischat> davidwood: there is a social construct which is disjoint from the syntax. this is a social convention :)
David Wood: there is a social construct which is disjoint from the syntax. this is a social convention :) ←
12:29:02 <tlebo> q?
Tim Lebo: q? ←
12:29:02 <cygri> +1 to davidwood
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to davidwood ←
12:29:08 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
12:29:18 <ivan> azk zwu
Ivan Herman: azk zwu ←
12:29:23 <ivan> ack zwu
Ivan Herman: ack zwu ←
12:29:23 <mischat> Guus: any more questions for sandro
Guus Schreiber: any more questions for sandro ←
12:29:27 <cygri> davidwood: don't want to stifle innovation by specifying it too tightly
David Wood: don't want to stifle innovation by specifying it too tightly [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
12:29:38 <mischat> zwu2: what are the confusions which you seeing ?
Zhe Wu: what are the confusions which you seeing ? ←
12:30:27 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
12:30:41 <mischat> sandro: thinks there will be a future where you are talking to many datasets, and it will become important when each implementation will have different ways of storing their graphs in their triple stores
Sandro Hawke: thinks there will be a future where you are talking to many datasets, and it will become important when each implementation will have different ways of storing their graphs in their triple stores ←
12:30:50 <ivan> ack LeeF
Ivan Herman: ack LeeF ←
12:30:50 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to make distinction between what an implementation does and what a user of an implementation does
Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to make distinction between what an implementation does and what a user of an implementation does ←
12:31:00 <tlebo> As long as we have rdf2:GraphContainer, don't we have a basis for others to describe the associations among them. e.g., :GN a rdf2:GraphContainer; my:unionOf :G1, :G2 ?
Tim Lebo: As long as we have rdf2:GraphContainer, don't we have a basis for others to describe the associations among them. e.g., :GN a rdf2:GraphContainer; my:unionOf :G1, :G2 ? ←
12:31:19 <mischat> LeeF: /me can't understand u
Lee Feigenbaum: /me can't understand u ←
12:31:49 <cygri> +1 to thinking about conformance
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to thinking about conformance ←
12:32:40 <mischat> LeeF: is thinking about conformance, is not clear, is it is the RDF dataset isn't conformant. Should the triplestore have an conformant API.
Lee Feigenbaum: is thinking about conformance, is not clear, is it is the RDF dataset isn't conformant. Should the triplestore have an conformant API. ←
12:32:42 <sandro> I think it's the person using the API....
Sandro Hawke: I think it's the person using the API.... ←
12:32:56 <AndyS> tlebo - yes I think so but it can become a burden. c.f. Assembler vs high level code (reification has this problem, more so)
Andy Seaborne: tlebo - yes I think so but it can become a burden. c.f. Assembler vs high level code (reification has this problem, more so) ←
12:33:21 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:33:52 <mischat> LeeF: are there test cases which test the semantics when talking about conforming datasets
Lee Feigenbaum: are there test cases which test the semantics when talking about conforming datasets ←
12:34:25 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
12:35:11 <danbri> cygri: you want system not to have to guess what kind of graph layout we're finding in some store
Richard Cyganiak: you want system not to have to guess what kind of graph layout we're finding in some store [ Scribe Assist by Dan Brickley ] ←
12:35:18 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
12:35:22 <davidwood> q+ to mention interoperability as the place semantics meet implementations
David Wood: q+ to mention interoperability as the place semantics meet implementations ←
12:35:26 <mischat> cygri: wanted to comment on when sandro mentioned a developer which needs to talk to lots of RDF datasets, and what to expect.
Richard Cyganiak: wanted to comment on when sandro mentioned a developer which needs to talk to lots of RDF datasets, and what to expect. ←
12:35:37 <AlexHall> +1 - how RDF gets associated with a graph URI is different from what that association means
Alex Hall: +1 - how RDF gets associated with a graph URI is different from what that association means ←
12:35:44 <gavinc> Seems like an issue for VoID
Gavin Carothers: Seems like an issue for VoID ←
12:35:51 <tlebo> +1 to documenting dataset patterns that people have used (like those Gavin mentioned).
Tim Lebo: +1 to documenting dataset patterns that people have used (like those Gavin mentioned). ←
12:35:55 <mischat> cygri: thinks this is about patterns when using/interacting with datasets. This shouldn't touch on the semantics of RDF
Richard Cyganiak: thinks this is about patterns when using/interacting with datasets. This shouldn't touch on the semantics of RDF ←
12:36:01 <pchampin> q+
12:36:04 <LeeF> +1 to cygri
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 to cygri ←
12:36:06 <ivan> ack Guus
Ivan Herman: ack Guus ←
12:36:08 <danbri> +1 for documenting patterns over proscribing one notion
Dan Brickley: +1 for documenting patterns over proscribing one notion ←
12:36:19 <zwu2> +1 to cygri
12:36:22 <mischat> cygri: thinks that we should be documenting patterns, is the way to go, and doesn't think that making everyone have one view of the world, won't work
Richard Cyganiak: thinks that we should be documenting patterns, is the way to go, and doesn't think that making everyone have one view of the world, won't work ←
12:36:29 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
12:36:39 <ww> AndyS: that's why we have compilers, which have something solid to build upon. just need good tools.
Andy Seaborne: that's why we have compilers, which have something solid to build upon. just need good tools. [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ] ←
12:36:46 <gavinc> I don't think it's a "can't" define semantics I'd say shouldn't ;)
Gavin Carothers: I don't think it's a "can't" define semantics I'd say shouldn't ;) ←
12:37:00 <mischat> Guus: is asking cygri if he would prefer to document pragmatics instead of defining semantics
Guus Schreiber: is asking cygri if he would prefer to document pragmatics instead of defining semantics ←
12:37:22 <mischat> Guus: would like to provide guides and not limit the practice
Guus Schreiber: would like to provide guides and not limit the practice ←
12:37:30 <AZ> +1 guus
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 guus ←
12:37:40 <AndyS> ww - that was the reif argument ... didn't work out (not sure why) Ditto RDF lists.
Andy Seaborne: ww - that was the reif argument ... didn't work out (not sure why) Ditto RDF lists. ←
12:37:57 <tlebo> example dataset organization: source vs. content based graph organization https://github.com/timrdf/csv2rdf4lod-automation/wiki/Named-graph-organization
Tim Lebo: example dataset organization: source vs. content based graph organization https://github.com/timrdf/csv2rdf4lod-automation/wiki/Named-graph-organization ←
12:37:59 <iand> guus: saying we want the widest semantics that we can agree on
Guus Schreiber: saying we want the widest semantics that we can agree on [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
12:38:01 <ivan> ack davidwood
Ivan Herman: ack davidwood ←
12:38:01 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to mention interoperability as the place semantics meet implementations
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to mention interoperability as the place semantics meet implementations ←
12:38:10 <cygri> +1 to guus
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to guus ←
12:38:25 <danbri> cygri is it fair to read your approach (re pattern description) as a variant on "All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection"?
Dan Brickley: cygri is it fair to read your approach (re pattern description) as a variant on "All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection"? ←
12:38:35 <danbri> (cygri leaves room)
Dan Brickley: (cygri leaves room) ←
12:39:04 <AndyS> ==> (the room leaves cygri)
Andy Seaborne: ==> (the room leaves cygri) ←
12:39:26 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:39:28 <mischat> davidwood: we are getting worked about defining everything, has an issue that everyone interprets the semantics differently then we will have interoperability issues
David Wood: we are getting worked about defining everything, has an issue that everyone interprets the semantics differently then we will have interoperability issues ←
12:39:30 <ivan> ack pchampin
Ivan Herman: ack pchampin ←
12:39:59 <mischat> pchampin: has a question for cygri
Pierre-Antoine Champin: has a question for cygri ←
12:40:34 <danbri> q+ to suggest this is a classic layer-of-indirection solution to avoid committee design
Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest this is a classic layer-of-indirection solution to avoid committee design ←
12:40:36 <mischat> pchampin: thinks that semantics is exactly what we need to define interoperability. And is not comfortable with cygri's distinction
Pierre-Antoine Champin: thinks that semantics is exactly what we need to define interoperability. And is not comfortable with cygri's distinction ←
12:40:42 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
12:40:54 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
12:40:57 <danbri> q?
Dan Brickley: q? ←
12:41:08 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
12:41:32 <tlebo> q+ to ask silly question about using fragment identifiers to resolve "local vs. global" graph names.
Tim Lebo: q+ to ask silly question about using fragment identifiers to resolve "local vs. global" graph names. ←
12:41:35 <sandro> "Patterns of Use" vs "Semantics".
Sandro Hawke: "Patterns of Use" vs "Semantics". ←
12:41:36 <mischat> pchampin: is not comfortable your distinction between patterns of use and semantics
Pierre-Antoine Champin: is not comfortable your distinction between patterns of use and semantics ←
12:42:09 <Guus> any volunteers for taking over scribing?
Guus Schreiber: any volunteers for taking over scribing? ←
12:42:39 <AndyS> scribe AndyS
Andy Seaborne: scribe AndyS ←
12:42:40 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
(Scribe set to Andy Seaborne)
12:42:47 <AndyS> cygri: semantics are complicated
Richard Cyganiak: semantics are complicated ←
12:43:23 <sandro> +1 break at top of hour
Sandro Hawke: +1 break at top of hour ←
12:43:34 <tlebo> <http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card> { } is "the global one", #http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card# { } is "the local one" .... (or _http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card_ )
Tim Lebo: <http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card> { } is "the global one", #http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card# { } is "the local one" .... (or _http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card_ ) ←
12:43:37 <AndyS> q?
q? ←
12:43:42 <AndyS> ack danbri
ack danbri ←
12:43:42 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest this is a classic layer-of-indirection solution to avoid committee design
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to suggest this is a classic layer-of-indirection solution to avoid committee design ←
12:43:44 <ivan> ack danbri
Ivan Herman: ack danbri ←
12:44:30 <AndyS> danbri: practical vs semantics - maybe more have an indirection point - standards avoid impossible agreement decision
Dan Brickley: practical vs semantics - maybe more have an indirection point - standards avoid impossible agreement decision ←
12:44:37 <sandro> danbri: cygri is trying to put in an extensibility hook, since we can't agree how to limit things now.
Dan Brickley: cygri is trying to put in an extensibility hook, since we can't agree how to limit things now. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:44:48 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
12:44:56 <AndyS> ... makes practical in WG time.
... makes practical in WG time. ←
12:44:56 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
12:45:32 <AndyS> guus: if we could agree, shoudl we formalize local or global naming at least?
Guus Schreiber: if we could agree, shoudl we formalize local or global naming at least? ←
12:45:47 <AndyS> cygri: yes if not too much pain
Richard Cyganiak: yes if not too much pain ←
12:45:50 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:45:58 <ivan> ack tlebo
Ivan Herman: ack tlebo ←
12:45:58 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask silly question about using fragment identifiers to resolve "local vs. global" graph names.
Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to ask silly question about using fragment identifiers to resolve "local vs. global" graph names. ←
12:46:16 <AndyS> tlebo: use cases for both local and global
Tim Lebo: use cases for both local and global ←
12:46:41 <AndyS> ... different syntaxes e.g. URI frag
... different syntaxes e.g. URI frag ←
12:46:42 <AlexHall> local = mint your own (UUID-style) URI
Alex Hall: local = mint your own (UUID-style) URI ←
12:46:58 <gavinc> local = lie about being global
Gavin Carothers: local = lie about being global ←
12:47:06 <mischat> ack sandro
Mischa Tuffield: ack sandro ←
12:47:06 <danbri> maybe a) there are some practices that are just *wrong* eg. naming a graph with a URI of a human b) some that are OK but no consensus around details, eg. URI is URI of a random Web page c) some that are clearer but have practical annoyances (eg. using uuid: or urn:) ... so describing patterns approach is consistent with saying which amongst a-b-c-etc we prefer
Dan Brickley: maybe a) there are some practices that are just *wrong* eg. naming a graph with a URI of a human b) some that are OK but no consensus around details, eg. URI is URI of a random Web page c) some that are clearer but have practical annoyances (eg. using uuid: or urn:) ... so describing patterns approach is consistent with saying which amongst a-b-c-etc we prefer ←
12:47:11 <AndyS> guus: issue is if/should we stds that?
Guus Schreiber: issue is if/should we stds that? ←
12:48:21 <tlebo> @danbri, I'd say that <http://purl.org/twc/id/person/TimLebo> {} would be *wrong*, while #http://purl.org/twc/id/person/TimLebo# would be perfectly valid in anyone's dataset.
Tim Lebo: @danbri, I'd say that <http://purl.org/twc/id/person/TimLebo> {} would be *wrong*, while #http://purl.org/twc/id/person/TimLebo# would be perfectly valid in anyone's dataset. ←
12:48:54 <AndyS> sandro: tag example: local g-snap : predicate + graph literal could RDF assertions to show association.
Sandro Hawke: tag example: local g-snap : predicate + graph literal could RDF assertions to show association. ←
12:49:20 <pchampin> q+
12:49:40 <AndyS> ack me
ack me ←
12:49:40 <ivan> ack AndyS
Ivan Herman: ack AndyS ←
12:49:53 <cygri> q+ to comment on the practical difficulty of defining semantics for this
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to comment on the practical difficulty of defining semantics for this ←
12:50:21 <ivan> ack pchampin
Ivan Herman: ack pchampin ←
12:51:07 <Guus> andy: use case for immutable graph container
Andy Seaborne: use case for immutable graph container [ Scribe Assist by Guus Schreiber ] ←
12:51:21 <AndyS> pchampin: Q: options wiki page: pred+graph literal means defer (sandro: log:semantics) but it says something about the resource not the URI
Pierre-Antoine Champin: Q: options wiki page: pred+graph literal means defer (sandro: log:semantics) but it says something about the resource not the URI ←
12:51:32 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
12:52:04 <AndyS> sandro: yes but <t1> names a web resource and representation is the graph (indirection again?)
Sandro Hawke: yes but <t1> names a web resource and representation is the graph (indirection again?) ←
12:52:23 <yvesr> we shouldn't get into the semantics of N3 predicates - it's just the extension mechanism that is relevant imho
Yves Raimond: we shouldn't get into the semantics of N3 predicates - it's just the extension mechanism that is relevant imho ←
12:52:23 <iand> aren't graphs in sparql named with resources rather than URIs-as-strings?
Ian Davis: aren't graphs in sparql named with resources rather than URIs-as-strings? ←
12:52:38 <ivan> q-
Ivan Herman: q- ←
12:53:02 <AndyS> pchampin: one concern on difficult to define semantics : we seem to talk about the IRI itself
Pierre-Antoine Champin: one concern on difficult to define semantics : we seem to talk about the IRI itself ←
12:53:03 <cygri> iand, no, the spec says "pair of IRI and graph" â nothing about resources
Richard Cyganiak: iand, no, the spec says "pair of IRI and graph" â nothing about resources ←
12:53:15 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
12:53:15 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to comment on the practical difficulty of defining semantics for this
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to comment on the practical difficulty of defining semantics for this ←
12:53:18 <AndyS> q?
q? ←
12:54:46 <AndyS> cygri: meta: area of semantics we seem to get into vague (richard waves hands) but push back is on detail. We shoudl discuss concrete semantics proposal with detaiils.
Richard Cyganiak: meta: area of semantics we seem to get into vague (richard waves hands) but push back is on detail. We shoudl discuss concrete semantics proposal with detaiils. ←
12:55:22 <AndyS> .... and we are not there yet. One example (sandro) and we don't get further.
.... and we are not there yet. One example (sandro) and we don't get further. ←
12:55:45 <AndyS> guus: Test case (triples) examples is a way to do that
Guus Schreiber: Test case (triples) examples is a way to do that ←
12:55:50 <sandro> +1 cygri we have gap between requirements on the semantics and the specification of the semantics
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri we have gap between requirements on the semantics and the specification of the semantics ←
12:55:50 <AndyS> cygri: yes
Richard Cyganiak: yes ←
12:56:05 <AndyS> q?
q? ←
12:56:29 <sandro> restart at 15 after...?
Sandro Hawke: restart at 15 after...? ←
12:56:34 <iand> yes
12:56:58 <AndyS> guus: break now for 15 mins - then review situation. We will discuss options from Sandros's list
Guus Schreiber: break now for 15 mins - then review situation. We will discuss options from Sandros's list ←
12:57:08 <sandro> we can hear you well, yes.
Sandro Hawke: we can hear you well, yes. ←
12:57:09 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
12:57:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see AZ, MIT_Meeting_Room, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ww (muted), BBC_Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AZ, MIT_Meeting_Room, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ww (muted), BBC_Meeting_Room ←
12:57:11 <Zakim> MIT_Meeting_Room has davidwood, gavinc, zwu2, tlebo, AlexHall, sandro, Souri, Scott_Bauer, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: MIT_Meeting_Room has davidwood, gavinc, zwu2, tlebo, AlexHall, sandro, Souri, Scott_Bauer, LeeF ←
12:57:14 <Zakim> BBC_Meeting_Room has mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys, NickH, Thomas
Zakim IRC Bot: BBC_Meeting_Room has mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys, NickH, Thomas ←
12:57:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see davidwood1, AndyS, tlebo, Souri, zwu2, tomayac, LeeF, gavinc, iand, mischat, pfps, davidwood, AlexHall, cygri, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, danbri, Guus, swh,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see davidwood1, AndyS, tlebo, Souri, zwu2, tomayac, LeeF, gavinc, iand, mischat, pfps, davidwood, AlexHall, cygri, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, danbri, Guus, swh, ←
12:57:19 <Zakim> ... ivan, pchampin, ww, yvesr, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ivan, pchampin, ww, yvesr, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro ←
12:57:33 <sandro> Yeah -- play with video maybe, but keep the audio as-is.
Sandro Hawke: Yeah -- play with video maybe, but keep the audio as-is. ←
12:57:42 <sandro> nah --- ignore Zakim.
Sandro Hawke: nah --- ignore Zakim. ←
12:57:49 <sandro> update the wiki page!
Sandro Hawke: update the wiki page! ←
12:58:12 <sandro> yep, 9:15 ET
Sandro Hawke: yep, 9:15 ET ←
13:06:42 <Zakim> -AZ
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
13:07:41 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
13:18:37 <Guus> reconvene?
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
Guus Schreiber: reconvene? ←
13:20:45 <yvesr> sandro, do you get video from us
Yves Raimond: sandro, do you get video from us ←
13:20:46 <mischat> can people in MIT able to see us ? davidwood gavinc or anyone ?
Mischa Tuffield: can people in MIT able to see us ? davidwood gavinc or anyone ? ←
13:20:47 <yvesr> ?
Yves Raimond: ? ←
13:21:48 <davidwood> no
David Wood: no ←
13:21:48 <gavinc> for values of see that are not very good
Gavin Carothers: for values of see that are not very good ←
13:21:58 <yvesr> still not?
Yves Raimond: still not? ←
13:22:08 <gavinc> you still have audio
Gavin Carothers: you still have audio ←
13:22:12 <davidwood> no
David Wood: no ←
13:22:28 <yvesr> we see you well
Yves Raimond: we see you well ←
13:22:38 <gavinc> and video is gone
Gavin Carothers: and video is gone ←
13:22:41 <yvesr> looks like xmeeting is sending very little traffic to you
Yves Raimond: looks like xmeeting is sending very little traffic to you ←
13:24:24 <AndyS> reconvene
reconvene ←
13:24:50 <sandro> we see you!!!!!
Sandro Hawke: we see you!!!!! ←
13:25:02 <yvesr> yay!!!
Yves Raimond: yay!!! ←
13:25:08 <AndyS> !!!!!
!!!!! ←
13:25:22 <sandro> we heard that laugh
Sandro Hawke: we heard that laugh ←
13:25:30 <sandro> no, we do, now.
Sandro Hawke: no, we do, now. ←
13:26:07 <AndyS> guus: sandro, we stopped the options discussion: continue?
Guus Schreiber: sandro, we stopped the options discussion: continue? ←
13:26:59 <pfps> Pat and I can't help to formalize something that we don't understand
Peter Patel-Schneider: Pat and I can't help to formalize something that we don't understand ←
13:27:02 <AndyS> sandro: agree with cygri of disconnect between detail/semantics and approaches discussions
Sandro Hawke: agree with cygri of disconnect between detail/semantics and approaches discussions ←
13:27:37 <AndyS> davidwood: suggest start with 5 UCs (the A priority)
David Wood: suggest start with 5 UCs (the A priority) ←
13:27:49 <gavinc> the 5 use cases
Gavin Carothers: the 5 use cases ←
13:27:52 <gavinc> 1.1 (A PRIORITY) Slicing datasets according to multiple dimensions
Gavin Carothers: 1.1 (A PRIORITY) Slicing datasets according to multiple dimensions ←
13:27:54 <gavinc> 1.3 (A PRIORITY) Graph Changes Over Time
Gavin Carothers: 1.3 (A PRIORITY) Graph Changes Over Time ←
13:27:55 <gavinc> 1.5 (A PRIORITY) Exchanging the contents of RDF stores
Gavin Carothers: 1.5 (A PRIORITY) Exchanging the contents of RDF stores ←
13:27:57 <gavinc> 4.9 (A PRIORITY) Trust Web Opinions
Gavin Carothers: 4.9 (A PRIORITY) Trust Web Opinions ←
13:27:58 <gavinc> 5.2 (A PRIORITY) OWL's âOntology Documentsâ
Gavin Carothers: 5.2 (A PRIORITY) OWL's âOntology Documentsâ ←
13:28:00 <AndyS> sandro: understand how to implement
Sandro Hawke: understand how to implement ←
13:28:55 <AndyS> guus: meta: we have to assess if we have clarity to std semantic notion. We need an established practice not new work.
Guus Schreiber: meta: we have to assess if we have clarity to std semantic notion. We need an established practice not new work. ←
13:29:08 <AndyS> sandro: test cases => formal semantics
Sandro Hawke: test cases => formal semantics ←
13:29:46 <AndyS> guus: one possibility is we conclude can't get there and instead intro graph names not more
Guus Schreiber: one possibility is we conclude can't get there and instead intro graph names not more ←
13:30:12 <AndyS> yvesr to talk about graph slicing
yvesr to talk about graph slicing ←
13:30:41 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions
Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions ←
13:30:41 <yvesr> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions
Yves Raimond: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions ←
13:30:41 <iand> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions
Ian Davis: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions ←
13:30:46 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions ←
13:30:49 <pchampin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions
Pierre-Antoine Champin: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Slicing_datasets_according_to_multiple_dimensions ←
13:31:08 <AndyS> BBC want central RDF store then need to have slices (per product)
BBC want central RDF store then need to have slices (per product) ←
13:31:26 <AndyS> yvesr: product is e.g. /programmes, /music
Yves Raimond: product is e.g. /programmes, /music ←
13:31:51 <AndyS> ... need to slice by resources as well for fast update:
... need to slice by resources as well for fast update: ←
13:31:57 <cygri> q+ to ask whether that's like "redundant stored data" or "views"
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to ask whether that's like "redundant stored data" or "views" ←
13:32:01 <AndyS> ... found stores good at whole graph ops
... found stores good at whole graph ops ←
13:32:22 <gavinc> +infinity to updating small bits using graph replacement rather then UPDATE
Gavin Carothers: +infinity to updating small bits using graph replacement rather then UPDATE ←
13:32:47 <davidwood> +1 to Gavin
David Wood: +1 to Gavin ←
13:32:51 <AndyS> ... e.g. Eastenders (a TV program(me)) chnage => change whole graph
... e.g. Eastenders (a TV program(me)) chnage => change whole graph ←
13:33:14 <iand> this sounds similar to 1.7.1 editing datasets at the granulaity of the graph
Ian Davis: this sounds similar to 1.7.1 editing datasets at the granulaity of the graph ←
13:33:35 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
13:33:35 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask whether that's like "redundant stored data" or "views"
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to ask whether that's like "redundant stored data" or "views" ←
13:33:39 <AndyS> cygri: is a view computed on the fly or duplicated data?
Richard Cyganiak: is a view computed on the fly or duplicated data? ←
13:34:00 <AndyS> yvesr: duplicated
Yves Raimond: duplicated ←
13:34:32 <AndyS> ... original UC was graphs in graphs because of overlaps of views
... original UC was graphs in graphs because of overlaps of views ←
13:35:20 <AndyS> ... currently hierarchical: /programmes/Eastenders ==> fast operations
... currently hierarchical: /programmes/Eastenders ==> fast operations ←
13:35:24 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
13:35:40 <davidwood> q+ to ask about non-heirarchical subgraphs
David Wood: q+ to ask about non-heirarchical subgraphs ←
13:36:16 <AndyS> cygri: in some store there is a union dft graph. Update in NG is seen in dft graph. Do you want same but more complicated?
Richard Cyganiak: in some store there is a union dft graph. Update in NG is seen in dft graph. Do you want same but more complicated? ←
13:36:22 <ivan> ack davidwood
Ivan Herman: ack davidwood ←
13:36:22 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask about non-heirarchical subgraphs
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to ask about non-heirarchical subgraphs ←
13:36:29 <davidwood> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#prov-dm-overview
David Wood: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#prov-dm-overview ←
13:36:33 <AndyS> yvesr: yes - we'd like that also access control
Yves Raimond: yes - we'd like that also access control ←
13:36:35 <davidwood> The wasComplementOf relationship is used to denote that two entities complement each other, in the sense that they each represent a partial, but mutually compatible characterization of the same thing.
David Wood: The wasComplementOf relationship is used to denote that two entities complement each other, in the sense that they each represent a partial, but mutually compatible characterization of the same thing. ←
13:37:44 <sandro> davidwood: Let's talk about non-hierachical subgraph relationships.
David Wood: Let's talk about non-hierachical subgraph relationships. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:38:00 <pchampin> q+ to ask yves another question about hierarchical
Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to ask yves another question about hierarchical ←
13:38:20 <AndyS> davidwood: if we had a looser notion of subgraph then we can do this (scribe??)
David Wood: if we had a looser notion of subgraph then we can do this (scribe??) ←
13:38:48 <AndyS> yvesr: currently two graphs can overlap in triples
Yves Raimond: currently two graphs can overlap in triples ←
13:38:51 <sandro> davidwood: subgraphs should have the freedom to overlap in terms of membership of their triples.
David Wood: subgraphs should have the freedom to overlap in terms of membership of their triples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:38:54 <pchampin> q-
13:39:08 <AndyS> guus: What mechanisms do we need?
Guus Schreiber: What mechanisms do we need? ←
13:39:21 <gavinc> +q to talk about implementations of this
Gavin Carothers: +q to talk about implementations of this ←
13:39:21 <AndyS> ... name containers?
... name containers? ←
13:39:32 <sandro> guus: it sounds like the crucial thing here is to name containers
Guus Schreiber: it sounds like the crucial thing here is to name containers [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:40:11 <sandro> yvesr: You can check triple-by-triple to see if two graphs overlap.
Yves Raimond: You can check triple-by-triple to see if two graphs overlap. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:40:13 <AndyS> yvesr: issues: (1) specification of strucures e.g. overlap Can check currently. bNodes are "a bit more complicated"
Yves Raimond: issues: (1) specification of strucures e.g. overlap Can check currently. bNodes are "a bit more complicated" ←
13:40:43 <AndyS> ... (2) NG impl issue: good if split of triples : overlaps are duplication
... (2) NG impl issue: good if split of triples : overlaps are duplication ←
13:40:45 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
13:40:46 <mischat> this seems like a SPARQL issue from my POV
Mischa Tuffield: this seems like a SPARQL issue from my POV ←
13:40:46 <sandro> yvesr: There can be lots of duplication of information
Yves Raimond: There can be lots of duplication of information [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:40:49 <ivan> ack gavinc
Ivan Herman: ack gavinc ←
13:40:49 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to talk about implementations of this
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to talk about implementations of this ←
13:40:54 <cygri> q+ to think out loud about ânested datasetsâ
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to think out loud about ânested datasetsâ ←
13:41:50 <sandro> gavin: Speaking to one implementation. One method we used to define the relationship between super and sub graphs. SPARQL CONSTRUCT queries to create bounded descriptions, stored as separate named graph, later.
Gavin Carothers: Speaking to one implementation. One method we used to define the relationship between super and sub graphs. SPARQL CONSTRUCT queries to create bounded descriptions, stored as separate named graph, later. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:41:53 <AndyS> gavinc: example - supergraphs defined by CONSTRUCT of subgraphs - stored as separate graph
Gavin Carothers: example - supergraphs defined by CONSTRUCT of subgraphs - stored as separate graph ←
13:42:01 <LeeF> I'm not sure how relevant this is, but in Anzo we pretty much just define "RDF Datasets" as first class citizens - they're defined in the system and are collections of named graphs as per the SPARQL notion of a dataset
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm not sure how relevant this is, but in Anzo we pretty much just define "RDF Datasets" as first class citizens - they're defined in the system and are collections of named graphs as per the SPARQL notion of a dataset ←
13:42:05 <LeeF> 2 datasets can share a graph
Lee Feigenbaum: 2 datasets can share a graph ←
13:42:15 <LeeF> and we use the datasets as a way to handle higher-level manipulations
Lee Feigenbaum: and we use the datasets as a way to handle higher-level manipulations ←
13:42:15 <sandro> gavin: None of these were based on semantic relationship -- the Construct queries defined the supergraphs.
Gavin Carothers: None of these were based on semantic relationship -- the Construct queries defined the supergraphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:42:38 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
13:42:42 <sandro> sandro: not really sub/super graph, but ... other graphs.
Sandro Hawke: not really sub/super graph, but ... other graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:42:56 <sandro> gavin: No new triples created -- it was just re-grouping triples.
Gavin Carothers: No new triples created -- it was just re-grouping triples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:43:02 <AndyS> gavin: no new triples : CONSTRUCT is a method of grouping triples
Gavin Carothers: no new triples : CONSTRUCT is a method of grouping triples ←
13:43:14 <sandro> gavin: a fairly common pattern.
Gavin Carothers: a fairly common pattern. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:43:16 <AlexHall> Mulgara has a feature to create a named graph that is a view consisting of boolean set operations on -- surely other stores have this feature as well?
Alex Hall: Mulgara has a feature to create a named graph that is a view consisting of boolean set operations on -- surely other stores have this feature as well? ←
13:43:22 <Guus> ack invan
Guus Schreiber: ack invan ←
13:43:32 <Guus> ack ivan
Guus Schreiber: ack ivan ←
13:43:35 <AlexHall> [set operations on other named graphs]
Alex Hall: [set operations on other named graphs] ←
13:44:07 <sandro> q+ to answer
Sandro Hawke: q+ to answer ←
13:44:14 <AndyS> ivan: what can we do for you?
Ivan Herman: what can we do for you? ←
13:44:15 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
13:44:41 <sandro> q+ to say that "web semantics for datasets" would allow other folks to mix & match yvesr's data.
Sandro Hawke: q+ to say that "web semantics for datasets" would allow other folks to mix & match yvesr's data. ←
13:44:43 <AndyS> yvesr: not complete clear - loosely defined maybe better
Yves Raimond: not complete clear - loosely defined maybe better ←
13:44:57 <AndyS> ivan: is there a stronger semantics that (in a few years) woudl be better
Ivan Herman: is there a stronger semantics that (in a few years) woudl be better ←
13:45:12 <AndyS> yvesr: yes - eg. graph of things editors can change
Yves Raimond: yes - eg. graph of things editors can change ←
13:45:25 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:45:30 <AndyS> ... whether this is big spec csost.
... whether this is big spec csost. ←
13:45:54 <AndyS> guus: Is this data mgt , rather than RDF change?
Guus Schreiber: Is this data mgt , rather than RDF change? ←
13:45:54 <davidwood> q+ re ISSUE-33
David Wood: q+ re ISSUE-33 ←
13:46:01 <sandro> issue-33?
13:46:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-33 -- Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? -- open ←
13:46:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33 ←
13:46:16 <AndyS> ... (exploring)
... (exploring) ←
13:46:19 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
13:46:20 <ivan> ack sandro
Ivan Herman: ack sandro ←
13:46:20 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to answer and to say that "web semantics for datasets" would allow other folks to mix & match yvesr's data.
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to answer and to say that "web semantics for datasets" would allow other folks to mix & match yvesr's data. ←
13:46:56 <AndyS> sandro: yvesr says "graph" for "graph container"
Sandro Hawke: yvesr says "graph" for "graph container" ←
13:47:24 <cygri> trackbot: BEER on yvesr
13:47:24 <trackbot> Sorry, cygri, I don't understand 'trackbot: BEER on yvesr'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, cygri, I don't understand 'trackbot: BEER on yvesr'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help ←
13:48:01 <AndyS> ... and my web semantic proposal woudl let mix and match deref via stable URL
... and my web semantic proposal woudl let mix and match deref via stable URL ←
13:48:21 <AndyS> ... build eco system
... build eco system ←
13:48:22 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
13:48:25 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
13:48:30 <ivan> ack davidwood
Ivan Herman: ack davidwood ←
13:48:30 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to discuss ISSUE-33
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to discuss ISSUE-33 ←
13:48:41 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
13:48:45 <ivan> ISSUE-33?
13:48:45 <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-33 -- Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? -- open ←
13:48:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33 ←
13:48:54 <AndyS> davidwood: for BBC UC can we close issue-33?
David Wood: for BBC UC can we close ISSUE-33? ←
13:49:54 <AndyS> ... contention is remove parent-child but let graphs exists and overlap we do not need subgraph specially
... contention is remove parent-child but let graphs exists and overlap we do not need subgraph specially ←
13:50:19 <Souri> q+ to suggest => :G rdf:includes :g1, :g2, :g3 . (flexible grouping in RDF, not having to go to SPARQL)
Souripriya Das: q+ to suggest => :G rdf:includes :g1, :g2, :g3 . (flexible grouping in RDF, not having to go to SPARQL) ←
13:50:22 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:50:34 <cygri> q+ to say that one doesn't preclude the other
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to say that one doesn't preclude the other ←
13:50:39 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
13:50:39 <AndyS> ... looser defn of subgaph and graph membership can overlap then we benefit from no fixed hierarchy
... looser defn of subgaph and graph membership can overlap then we benefit from no fixed hierarchy ←
13:50:45 <AndyS> ... and we can close issue-33
... and we can close ISSUE-33 ←
13:50:58 <sandro> q+ to say I agree we can let g-snaps overlap as they may, assuming we don't care about bnodes
Sandro Hawke: q+ to say I agree we can let g-snaps overlap as they may, assuming we don't care about bnodes ←
13:51:22 <AndyS> davidwood: proposal "no" to issue-33 by defn g* so subgraphs are possible.
David Wood: proposal "no" to ISSUE-33 by defn g* so subgraphs are possible. ←
13:51:32 <AndyS> ack souri
ack souri ←
13:51:32 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to suggest => :G rdf:includes :g1, :g2, :g3 . (flexible grouping in RDF, not having to go to SPARQL)
Zakim IRC Bot: Souri, you wanted to suggest => :G rdf:includes :g1, :g2, :g3 . (flexible grouping in RDF, not having to go to SPARQL) ←
13:51:32 <ivan> ack Souri
Ivan Herman: ack Souri ←
13:51:59 <davidwood> +1 to souri
David Wood: +1 to souri ←
13:52:15 <sandro> souri: As Gavin said, with grouping of graphs, not parent/child, ... I want to take these graphs together, and name the collection this,... not in SPARQL, just in RDF.
Souripriya Das: As Gavin said, with grouping of graphs, not parent/child, ... I want to take these graphs together, and name the collection this,... not in SPARQL, just in RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:52:42 <sandro> ... in the triplestore, G container is always the merge of the contents of G1, G2, etc.
Sandro Hawke: ... in the triplestore, G container is always the merge of the contents of G1, G2, etc. ←
13:52:44 <AndyS> souri, this is in RDF not SPARQL, then query graph G then snapshots G
souri, this is in RDF not SPARQL, then query graph G then snapshots G ←
13:52:47 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
13:53:00 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
13:53:00 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say that one doesn't preclude the other
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to say that one doesn't preclude the other ←
13:53:01 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
13:54:24 <AndyS> cygri, two things: good things from arb overlap graphs but may still want to have "subgraph" explicit concpt
cygri, two things: good things from arb overlap graphs but may still want to have "subgraph" explicit concpt ←
13:54:49 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
13:54:50 <tlebo> Is @davidwood saying that #33's subgraph notion can be accounted for by placing RDF Graphs (g-snap) into Graph Containers (g-box)? If you want to "hierarchicalize" RDF Graphs, you'd do it by placing them into hierarchical Graph Containers.
Tim Lebo: Is @davidwood saying that #33's subgraph notion can be accounted for by placing RDF Graphs (g-snap) into Graph Containers (g-box)? If you want to "hierarchicalize" RDF Graphs, you'd do it by placing them into hierarchical Graph Containers. ←
13:54:52 <AndyS> ... and UC wikidata talks about triples not graphs (was that right?)
... and UC wikidata talks about triples not graphs (was that right?) ←
13:55:09 <davidwood> Souri's formulation allows the creation of parent-child subgraphs as a degenerate case.
David Wood: Souri's formulation allows the creation of parent-child subgraphs as a degenerate case. ←
13:55:20 <davidwood> Therefore, cyri's concern is handled.
David Wood: Therefore, cyri's concern is handled. ←
13:55:35 <yvesr> wikidata is a very good use-case for the same sort of issues: you always have two dimensions on which you want to slice your dataset: per item in the wiki, and per authorisation rights
Yves Raimond: wikidata is a very good use-case for the same sort of issues: you always have two dimensions on which you want to slice your dataset: per item in the wiki, and per authorisation rights ←
13:55:35 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
13:55:39 <AndyS> ivan: subset can be useful so don't see overlap covers subgraph need as is very useful.
Ivan Herman: subset can be useful so don't see overlap covers subgraph need as is very useful. ←
13:56:05 <AndyS> guus: what have we leant?
Guus Schreiber: what have we leant? ←
13:56:30 <AndyS> sandro: we need bnodes sharing - subgraphs
Sandro Hawke: we need bnodes sharing - subgraphs ←
13:56:43 <AndyS> guus: gSnap senseof graph
Guus Schreiber: gSnap senseof graph ←
13:56:53 <davidwood> tlebo, if you name a graph in a g-box and fill it with triples from a g-snap, then sure.
David Wood: tlebo, if you name a graph in a g-box and fill it with triples from a g-snap, then sure. ←
13:57:01 <cygri> sandro, bnode scope is orthogonal to subgraphs
Richard Cyganiak: sandro, bnode scope is orthogonal to subgraphs ←
13:57:07 <gavinc> bnode sharing clearly DOESN'T need subgraphs as bnodes can be amusingly shared in sparql datasets today ;)
Gavin Carothers: bnode sharing clearly DOESN'T need subgraphs as bnodes can be amusingly shared in sparql datasets today ;) ←
13:57:30 <pchampin> q+ to ask a very basic question
Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to ask a very basic question ←
13:57:47 <AndyS> yvesr: not sure operators useful - want to mark a triple as in bags.
Yves Raimond: not sure operators useful - want to mark a triple as in bags. ←
13:58:07 <AndyS> ... graph as container
... graph as container ←
13:58:18 <davidwood> bnode sharing would be facilitated by naming g-snaps
David Wood: bnode sharing would be facilitated by naming g-snaps ←
13:58:21 <sandro> it is, cygri? I thought bnodes were scoped to graphs.....
Sandro Hawke: it is, cygri? I thought bnodes were scoped to graphs..... ←
13:58:45 <AndyS> sandro - by syntax
sandro - by syntax ←
13:58:53 <cygri> sandro, no. they are not scoped at all. bnode *identifiers* are scoped by document
Richard Cyganiak: sandro, no. they are not scoped at all. bnode *identifiers* are scoped by document ←
13:59:03 <gavinc> +g to explain at least one "implementation" of bnode "sharing" between many graphs
Gavin Carothers: +g to explain at least one "implementation" of bnode "sharing" between many graphs ←
13:59:08 <mischat> can't you achieve this with a SPARQL insert thing
Mischa Tuffield: can't you achieve this with a SPARQL insert thing ←
13:59:11 <mischat> +1 Guus
Mischa Tuffield: +1 Guus ←
13:59:13 <AndyS> guus: do a lookup as to where it is?
Guus Schreiber: do a lookup as to where it is? ←
13:59:25 <tlebo> q?
Tim Lebo: q? ←
13:59:27 <gavinc> +q to explain at least one "implementation" of bnode "sharing" between many graphs
Gavin Carothers: +q to explain at least one "implementation" of bnode "sharing" between many graphs ←
13:59:33 <AndyS> iand: name sets of triples?
Ian Davis: name sets of triples? ←
13:59:36 <PatHayes> unfortunately at present RDF dos not scope bnodes at all, and sparql takes advantage of this.
Patrick Hayes: unfortunately at present RDF dos not scope bnodes at all, and sparql takes advantage of this. ←
13:59:48 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
13:59:52 <gavinc> +1000 PatHayes
Gavin Carothers: +1000 PatHayes ←
13:59:56 <davidwood> named set of triples == named g-snap
David Wood: named set of triples == named g-snap ←
14:00:02 <sandro> sorry, cygri -- yes, but I thought in Named Graphs bnodes were not allowed to be shared.
Sandro Hawke: sorry, cygri -- yes, but I thought in Named Graphs bnodes were not allowed to be shared. ←
14:00:31 <cygri> sandro, the carroll et al paper might say that. sparql doesn't.
Richard Cyganiak: sandro, the carroll et al paper might say that. sparql doesn't. ←
14:00:40 <AndyS> iand: if use name, what triples is it?
Ian Davis: if use name, what triples is it? ←
14:00:52 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
14:00:55 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
14:00:55 <gavinc> the carroll et all paper didn't say that... at least not by my reading
Gavin Carothers: the carroll et all paper didn't say that... at least not by my reading ←
14:01:03 <ivan> ack pchampin
Ivan Herman: ack pchampin ←
14:01:03 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask a very basic question
Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to ask a very basic question ←
14:01:06 <gavinc> and it seems PatHayes at well
Gavin Carothers: and it seems PatHayes at well ←
14:01:06 <PatHayes> no, the carroll +al paper does not address this bnode issue.
Patrick Hayes: no, the carroll +al paper does not address this bnode issue. ←
14:01:16 <cygri> gavinc, you might be right. i should re-read it
Richard Cyganiak: gavinc, you might be right. i should re-read it ←
14:01:45 <gavinc> and given et all included PatHayes I'm going to agree with him
Gavin Carothers: and given et al included PatHayes I'm going to agree with him ←
14:01:50 <AndyS> pchampin: do we have an accepted way to talk about graph containers?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: do we have an accepted way to talk about graph containers? ←
14:02:03 <pchampin> pchampin: or RDF graphs (aka g-snap)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: or RDF graphs (aka g-snap) [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
14:02:06 <AndyS> guus: we have consensus for this.
Guus Schreiber: we have consensus for this. ←
14:02:18 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
14:02:19 <sandro> +1 everyone seems to agree we need a way to name graph containers
Sandro Hawke: +1 everyone seems to agree we need a way to name graph containers ←
14:02:36 <Souri> s/ et all / et al /
14:02:45 <iand> do any use cases require naming of graphs (g-snaps)
Ian Davis: do any use cases require naming of graphs (g-snaps) ←
14:02:58 <LeeF> i share iand's question
Lee Feigenbaum: i share iand's question ←
14:02:58 <ivan> ack gavinc
Ivan Herman: ack gavinc ←
14:02:58 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to explain at least one "implementation" of bnode "sharing" between many graphs
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to explain at least one "implementation" of bnode "sharing" between many graphs ←
14:03:04 <AndyS> path: must not confuse container and snap
Patrick Hayes: must not confuse container and snap ←
14:03:13 <ivan> q/
Ivan Herman: q/ ←
14:03:15 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
14:03:31 <sandro> PatHayes, you're missing the look of complete "Who Me???" on my face. I don't think THAT'S what we're disagreeing about.
Sandro Hawke: PatHayes, you're missing the look of complete "Who Me???" on my face. I don't think THAT'S what we're disagreeing about. ←
14:03:56 <PatHayes> ok, sandro, sorry if ive been misreading you.
Patrick Hayes: ok, sandro, sorry if ive been misreading you. ←
14:03:57 <davidwood> Propose to RESOLVE "we need a way to name graph containers"
David Wood: Propose to RESOLVE "we need a way to name graph containers" ←
14:04:13 <AndyS> gavinc: bnodes not scoped anywhere and impls use this. skolemization round tripping possible.
Gavin Carothers: bnodes not scoped anywhere and impls use this. skolemization round tripping possible. ←
14:04:24 <AndyS> ... may not be a good way.
... may not be a good way. ←
14:04:51 <AndyS> sandro: trig, nq syntax.
Sandro Hawke: trig, nq syntax. ←
14:04:57 <Guus> maybe we should state the consensus that, at the minimum, graph containers should have a naming mechanism
Guus Schreiber: maybe we should state the consensus that, at the minimum, graph containers should have a naming mechanism ←
14:05:00 <iand> +1 to davidwood suggestion
Ian Davis: +1 to davidwood suggestion ←
14:05:01 <AndyS> gavinc: variations
Gavin Carothers: variations ←
14:05:19 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
14:05:20 <AndyS> path: I agree
Patrick Hayes: I agree ←
14:05:24 <Guus> ... as a resolution
Guus Schreiber: ... as a resolution ←
14:05:33 <sandro> gavin: We clearly need *some* standardization to allow people to transmit datasets where there are blank nodes shared between graphs.
Gavin Carothers: We clearly need *some* standardization to allow people to transmit datasets where there are blank nodes shared between graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:05:47 <AndyS> davidwood: name gboxes ... propose resolution
David Wood: name gboxes ... propose resolution ←
14:06:59 <yvesr> having names for both snapshots and containers would be horribly confusing
Yves Raimond: having names for both snapshots and containers would be horribly confusing ←
14:07:36 <gavinc> eh, we already do and it's not that bad
Gavin Carothers: eh, we already do and it's not that bad ←
14:07:44 <gavinc> and the names are the same ;)
Gavin Carothers: and the names are the same ;) ←
14:07:49 <yvesr> :)
Yves Raimond: :) ←
14:07:51 <PatHayes> yvesr, we are already in practice in this confusion.
Patrick Hayes: yvesr, we are already in practice in this confusion. ←
14:08:04 <Souri> q+ (aside) to confirm (hopefully) that graph names cannot be bNodes (and must necessarily be IRIs)
Souripriya Das: q+ (aside) to confirm (hopefully) that graph names cannot be bNodes (and must necessarily be IRIs) ←
14:08:24 <Souri> ack (aside)
Souripriya Das: ack (aside) ←
14:08:24 <Zakim> (aside), you wanted to confirm (hopefully) that graph names cannot be bNodes (and must necessarily be IRIs)
Zakim IRC Bot: (aside), you wanted to confirm (hopefully) that graph names cannot be bNodes (and must necessarily be IRIs) ←
14:08:34 <AndyS> guus: unclear "named graph"
Guus Schreiber: unclear "named graph" ←
14:08:34 <AndyS> cygri: no - named graph snap
Richard Cyganiak: no - named graph snap ←
14:08:34 <AndyS> ... it's the formal def
... it's the formal def ←
14:08:41 <AndyS> cygri: collection of named snapshots
Richard Cyganiak: collection of named snapshots ←
14:08:45 <sandro> Doesn't RDF already support naming everything we can image? :-)
Sandro Hawke: Doesn't RDF already support naming everything we can imagine? :-) ←
14:08:53 <sandro> s/image/imagine/
14:08:56 <PatHayes> souri, yes. bnode is not a name. But a bnode can refer to anything that can be named.
Patrick Hayes: souri, yes. bnode is not a name. But a bnode can refer to anything that can be named. ←
14:09:00 <sandro> queue=
Sandro Hawke: queue= ←
14:09:03 <gavinc> Souri, the named graph paper at least was happily clear that it was IRI not Resource (eg, no blank nodes)
Gavin Carothers: Souri, the named graph paper at least was happily clear that it was IRI not Resource (eg, no blank nodes) ←
14:09:04 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
14:09:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT_Meeting_Room, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ww (muted), BBC_Meeting_Room, AZ, PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see MIT_Meeting_Room, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ww (muted), BBC_Meeting_Room, AZ, PatH ←
14:09:06 <Zakim> MIT_Meeting_Room has davidwood, gavinc, zwu2, tlebo, AlexHall, sandro, Souri, Scott_Bauer, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: MIT_Meeting_Room has davidwood, gavinc, zwu2, tlebo, AlexHall, sandro, Souri, Scott_Bauer, LeeF ←
14:09:09 <Zakim> BBC_Meeting_Room has mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys, NickH, Thomas
Zakim IRC Bot: BBC_Meeting_Room has mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys, NickH, Thomas ←
14:09:11 <Souri> q-
Souripriya Das: q- ←
14:09:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatHayes, pfps, mischat, LeeF, tlebo, iand, MacTed, davidwood, AndyS, Souri, zwu2, tomayac, gavinc, AlexHall, cygri, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, danbri, Guus,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatHayes, pfps, mischat, LeeF, tlebo, iand, MacTed, davidwood, AndyS, Souri, zwu2, tomayac, gavinc, AlexHall, cygri, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, danbri, Guus, ←
14:09:17 <Zakim> ... swh, ivan, pchampin, yvesr, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: ... swh, ivan, pchampin, yvesr, manu, NickH, trackbot, manu1, sandro ←
14:09:19 <Souri> q?
Souripriya Das: q? ←
14:09:20 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
14:09:24 <ivan> zakim, MIT_Meeting_Room also has Eric
Ivan Herman: zakim, MIT_Meeting_Room also has Eric ←
14:09:24 <Zakim> +Eric; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Eric; got it ←
14:10:00 <pchampin> scribe pchampin
Pierre-Antoine Champin: scribe pchampin ←
14:10:02 <AndyS> q-
q- ←
14:10:41 <danbri> does the bot need : prefix?
Dan Brickley: does the bot need : prefix? ←
14:10:42 <danbri> scribenick: pchampin
(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)
14:11:05 <pchampin> pat: what I understood: we have IRIs refering to graph containers, and IRIs refering to graphs (snapshots)
Patrick Hayes: what I understood: we have IRIs refering to graph containers, and IRIs refering to graphs (snapshots) ←
14:11:27 <pchampin> ... is that IRI going to appear in any RDF triple? and refer to the graph in this way?
... is that IRI going to appear in any RDF triple? and refer to the graph in this way? ←
14:11:56 <pchampin> guus: that would make life easier
Guus Schreiber: that would make life easier ←
14:12:22 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
14:12:40 <gavinc> PatHayes: that would make life possible
Patrick Hayes: that would make life possible [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
14:12:51 <pchampin> pat: to talk about a container changing over time, you need a programing language, which RDF is not
Patrick Hayes: to talk about a container changing over time, you need a programing language, which RDF is not ←
14:13:43 <pchampin> cygri: SPARQL is in last call; it already uses this notion of containers of graph; it is not a programming language
Richard Cyganiak: SPARQL is in last call; it already uses this notion of containers of graph; it is not a programming language ←
14:14:05 <pchampin> ... it is based on an abstract syntax: datasets
... it is based on an abstract syntax: datasets ←
14:14:11 <AndyS> (SPARQL update -- graph store)
Andy Seaborne: (SPARQL update -- graph store) ←
14:14:28 <pchampin> ... it does not have to become a part of RDF semantics
... it does not have to become a part of RDF semantics ←
14:14:49 <tlebo> (where is g-box, g-snap, g-text defined?)
Tim Lebo: (where is g-box, g-snap, g-text defined?) ←
14:15:15 <iand> tlebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graph_Terminology
Tim Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graph_Terminology [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
14:15:15 <AlexHall> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology
Alex Hall: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology ←
14:15:25 <pchampin> pat: I'm not suggesting that we should have this way of talking about boxes
Patrick Hayes: I'm not suggesting that we should have this way of talking about boxes ←
14:16:06 <pchampin> ... if we have to incorporate notions of time dependency in the semantics, this will be a major change
... if we have to incorporate notions of time dependency in the semantics, this will be a major change ←
14:16:18 <danbri> aside -- putting time and change pragmatics into semantics, seems like trying to teach flatlanders (per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland ) about the mythical 3rd dimension
Dan Brickley: aside -- putting time and change pragmatics into semantics, seems like trying to teach flatlanders (per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland ) about the mythical 3rd dimension ←
14:16:28 <PatHayes> by 'programming language' I mean only that it presumes an underlying notion of state
Patrick Hayes: by 'programming language' I mean only that it presumes an underlying notion of state ←
14:16:39 <pchampin> cygri: I agree that I would not like to make this kind of change in RDF semantics
Richard Cyganiak: I agree that I would not like to make this kind of change in RDF semantics ←
14:16:59 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
14:17:05 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
14:17:06 <cygri> ack
Richard Cyganiak: ack ←
14:17:07 <tlebo> thanks, @iand
Tim Lebo: thanks, @iand ←
14:17:09 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
14:17:16 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
14:17:24 <ivan> ack sandro
Ivan Herman: ack sandro ←
14:18:31 <pchampin> sandro: we can probably leave time out of the semantics
Sandro Hawke: we can probably leave time out of the semantics ←
14:18:41 <AlexHall> keep in mind, time is only one dimension over which the contents of a named g-box can change
Alex Hall: keep in mind, time is only one dimension over which the contents of a named g-box can change ←
14:18:46 <swh> time is far from the only variable
Steve Harris: time is far from the only variable ←
14:18:51 <pchampin> pat: that is, if we keep *dereferencing* out of the semantics too
Patrick Hayes: that is, if we keep *dereferencing* out of the semantics too ←
14:19:04 <yvesr> +1 to swh
Yves Raimond: +1 to swh ←
14:19:40 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
14:19:51 <ww> +1 to sandro
William Waites: +1 to sandro ←
14:20:11 <pchampin> andy: there is a difference btw using dereferencing the LOD way, and recording it in the RDF semantics
Andy Seaborne: there is a difference btw using dereferencing the LOD way, and recording it in the RDF semantics ←
14:20:38 <sandro> So, maybe there can be some consensus around talking about dereferencing, but not in the RDF Semantics.
Sandro Hawke: So, maybe there can be some consensus around talking about dereferencing, but not in the RDF Semantics. ←
14:20:55 <pchampin> guus: still trying to draw lessons from the BBC usecase
Guus Schreiber: still trying to draw lessons from the BBC usecase ←
14:21:18 <pchampin> ... we need to put triples in different containers
... we need to put triples in different containers ←
14:21:31 <sandro> pat: I agree dereferencing involves time, but time is hard, so I think we should leave dereferencing outside of the RDF Semantics.
Patrick Hayes: I agree dereferencing involves time, but time is hard, so I think we should leave dereferencing outside of the RDF Semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:21:36 <pchampin> ivan: and let the content of those containers overlap
Ivan Herman: and let the content of those containers overlap ←
14:21:51 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
14:22:24 <pchampin> cygri: the usecase requires shared bnodes between graphs (and containers)
Richard Cyganiak: the usecase requires shared bnodes between graphs (and containers) ←
14:22:26 <sandro> cygri: This use case involves bnodes being shared between Graph Containers.
Richard Cyganiak: This use case involves bnodes being shared between Graph Containers. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:22:37 <ericP> does it require bnode sharing? can't the graphs just entail each other?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: does it require bnode sharing? can't the graphs just entail each other? ←
14:22:54 <gavinc> Requires in reality shared blank nodes BETWEEN datasets, which ummm, impossible. New reality quickly becomes the use case tends to mean you can't/shouldn't use bnodes
Gavin Carothers: Requires in reality shared blank nodes BETWEEN datasets, which ummm, impossible. New reality quickly becomes the use case tends to mean you can't/shouldn't use bnodes ←
14:23:14 <PatHayes> not require bnode sharing, but allow it.
Patrick Hayes: not require bnode sharing, but allow it. ←
14:23:17 <pchampin> steve: you could also say: if you are going to use this use case, then you *can't* use bnodes
Steve Harris: you could also say: if you are going to use this use case, then you *can't* use bnodes ←
14:23:24 <pchampin> yves: unfortunately, we do use bnodes
Yves Raimond: unfortunately, we do use bnodes ←
14:23:31 <sandro> .well-known/genid is the answer. :-]
Sandro Hawke: .well-known/genid is the answer. :-] ←
14:23:43 <swh> +1 to sandro :)
Steve Harris: +1 to sandro :) ←
14:23:50 <gavinc> +sigh to sandro
Gavin Carothers: +sigh to sandro ←
14:23:57 <ericP> couldn't gsnap: { _:s1 <p1> <o1> } capture gbox: { _:s2 <p1> <o1> } ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: couldn't gsnap: { _:s1 <p1> <o1> } capture gbox: { _:s2 <p1> <o1> } ? ←
14:24:01 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
14:24:14 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
14:24:19 <yvesr> sandro, :)
Yves Raimond: sandro, :) ←
14:24:22 <AndyS> sometimes you know its the same bnode -- additional information e.g. subgraph
Andy Seaborne: sometimes you know its the same bnode -- additional information e.g. subgraph ←
14:24:31 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
14:24:40 <sandro> www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
Sandro Hawke: www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ←
14:24:45 <cygri> BBC_meeting_room is out of coffee :-(
Richard Cyganiak: BBC_meeting_room is out of coffee :-( ←
14:24:50 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ←
14:24:59 <sandro> cygri, you can have some of ours. We have lots left.
Sandro Hawke: cygri, you can have some of ours. We have lots left. ←
14:25:25 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_OWL.27s_.E2.80.9COntology_Documents.E2.80.9D
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_OWL.27s_.E2.80.9COntology_Documents.E2.80.9D ←
14:25:37 <pchampin> guus: let's switch to another usecase
Guus Schreiber: let's switch to another usecase ←
14:25:41 <PatHayes> damn all your coffees, i havnt even had a shower yet.
Patrick Hayes: damn all your coffees, i havnt even had a shower yet. ←
14:25:43 <mischat> 5.2 5.2 (A PRIORITY) OWL's âOntology Documentsâ
Mischa Tuffield: 5.2 5.2 (A PRIORITY) OWL's âOntology Documentsâ ←
14:25:47 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_OWL.27s_.E2.80.9COntology_Documents.E2.80.9D
Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_OWL.27s_.E2.80.9COntology_Documents.E2.80.9D ←
14:25:50 <pchampin> gavin: 5.2 OWL ontology documents
Gavin Carothers: 5.2 OWL ontology documents ←
14:25:52 <cygri> PatHayes too much information
Richard Cyganiak: PatHayes too much information ←
14:25:59 <PatHayes> ;-
Patrick Hayes: ;- ←
14:26:30 <pchampin> ... the general convention: you name the graph container with the ontology URI
... the general convention: you name the graph container with the ontology URI ←
14:28:05 <pchampin> ... the OWL ontology for Dublin Core exists on the web and you can deference it
... the OWL ontology for Dublin Core exists on the web and you can deference it ←
14:28:33 <pchampin> {hard to scribe explaination}
{hard to scribe explaination} ←
14:28:46 <sandro> gavin: The OWL ontology for Dublin Core exists on the web, and you can reference it. However, there are other ontologies with that name. There might be a DL ontology for dublin core.
Gavin Carothers: The OWL ontology for Dublin Core exists on the web, and you can reference it. However, there are other ontologies with that name. There might be a DL ontology for dublin core. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:28:51 <sandro> gavin: different ontologies, different URIs, but SOMETIMES I NEED TO GIVE THEM THE SAME NAME -- so I can switch which representation of the ontology I'm using.
Gavin Carothers: different ontologies, different URIs, but SOMETIMES I NEED TO GIVE THEM THE SAME NAME -- so I can switch which representation of the ontology I'm using. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:28:55 <sandro> gavin: Almost every ontology editor and OWL reasoner does it.
Gavin Carothers: Almost every ontology editor and OWL reasoner does it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:29:00 <PatHayes> but why do you want to say this common uri is a name?
Patrick Hayes: but why do you want to say this common uri is a name? ←
14:29:14 <pchampin> david: it's a nasty hack, but it's a good idea
David Wood: it's a nasty hack, but it's a good idea ←
14:29:26 <PatHayes> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
14:29:51 <pchampin> danbri: every now and then, I receive a mail suggesting to have the FOAF ontology conform with OWL-DL or other standard
Dan Brickley: every now and then, I receive a mail suggesting to have the FOAF ontology conform with OWL-DL or other standard ←
14:29:57 <iand> q+
14:30:01 <cygri> owl:Ontology rdfs:subClassOf rdf:Graph?
Richard Cyganiak: owl:Ontology rdfs:subClassOf rdf:Graph? ←
14:30:04 <iand> q-
14:30:14 <pchampin> ... it would be good if, with content negociation, different versions could be served
... it would be good if, with content negociation, different versions could be served ←
14:30:25 <sandro> danbri: With FOAF, I always emails saying I should use DL, and they email me an OWL file.
Dan Brickley: With FOAF, I always emails saying I should use DL, and they email me an OWL file. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:30:27 <AZ> gavin, it make me think of something I made a while ago: http://liris.cnrs.fr/~azimmerm/yoda
Antoine Zimmermann: gavin, it make me think of something I made a while ago: http://liris.cnrs.fr/~azimmerm/yoda ←
14:30:30 <pchampin> ivan: every OWL ontology, DL or not-DL, seen with RDF glasses, is a graph
Ivan Herman: every OWL ontology, DL or not-DL, seen with RDF glasses, is a graph ←
14:30:32 <iand> q+ to say there seems to be confusion between a namespace URI and an ontology URI
Ian Davis: q+ to say there seems to be confusion between a namespace URI and an ontology URI ←
14:30:38 <sandro> ivan: Every ontology, DL or not, is an RDF graph.
Ivan Herman: Every OWL ontology, DL or not, is an RDF graph. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:30:41 <sandro> s/ont/OWL ont/
14:30:44 <pchampin> ... if you change the ontology, it is a different graph
... if you change the ontology, it is a different graph ←
14:30:52 <pchampin> q+ to answer ivan
q+ to answer ivan ←
14:31:10 <mischat> i agree with danbri content negotiation is what is missing here, and mime-types for the various OWL variants
Mischa Tuffield: i agree with danbri content negotiation is what is missing here, and mime-types for the various OWL variants ←
14:31:28 <pchampin> guus: gavin, what is the requirement here?
Guus Schreiber: gavin, what is the requirement here? ←
14:31:33 <davidwood> When you refer to an ontology by URI, you are referring to a g-box. When you reason over it, you are reasoning over a g-snap.
David Wood: When you refer to an ontology by URI, you are referring to a g-box. When you reason over it, you are reasoning over a g-snap. ←
14:31:38 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
14:31:43 <pchampin> gavin: the problem is how owl:imports interacts with named graphs
Gavin Carothers: the problem is how owl:imports interacts with named graphs ←
14:32:02 <pchampin> ... depending how you implement it, different weird things happen
... depending how you implement it, different weird things happen ←
14:32:07 <AlexHall> q+
14:32:19 <mischat> is this an RDF issue?
Mischa Tuffield: is this an RDF issue? ←
14:32:33 <swh> "owl:" means it's OWL's problem :)
Steve Harris: "owl:" means it's OWL's problem :) ←
14:32:38 <pchampin> ... e.g. people use owl:imports inside SPARQL, what does that mean exactly?
... e.g. people use owl:imports inside SPARQL, what does that mean exactly? ←
14:33:15 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/#Imports
Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/#Imports ←
14:33:30 <davidwood> mischat, yes it is an RDF issue for the graph TF because of this statement in the UC: "An Ontology Document has an IRI, but it is left open-ended what that IRI represents (graph in a graph store? file on a file system? web resource?) Can the document IRI and the graph IRI that stores the ontology be the same?"
David Wood: mischat, yes it is an RDF issue for the graph TF because of this statement in the UC: "An Ontology Document has an IRI, but it is left open-ended what that IRI represents (graph in a graph store? file on a file system? web resource?) Can the document IRI and the graph IRI that stores the ontology be the same?" ←
14:33:42 <pchampin> peter: care has been taken in OWL2 with owl:import: this is a pragmatic issue, not a semantic issue (?)
Peter Patel-Schneider: care has been taken in OWL2 with owl:import: this is a pragmatic issue, not a semantic issue (?) ←
14:33:50 <ivan> "From a physical point of view, an ontology contains a set of IRIs, shown in Figure 1 as the directlyImportsDocuments association; these IRIs identify the ontology documents of the directly imported ontologies as specified in Section 3.2. The logical directly imports relation between ontologies, shown in Figure 1 as the directlyImports association, is obtained by accessing the directly imported ontology documents and converting them into OWL 2 ontologies. The l
Ivan Herman: "From a physical point of view, an ontology contains a set of IRIs, shown in Figure 1 as the directlyImportsDocuments association; these IRIs identify the ontology documents of the directly imported ontologies as specified in Section 3.2. The logical directly imports relation between ontologies, shown in Figure 1 as the directlyImports association, is obtained by accessing the directly imported ontology documents and converting them into OWL 2 ontologies. The l ←
14:33:52 <davidwood> It is the same dual use of the name of the graph that we are wrestling with here.
David Wood: It is the same dual use of the name of the graph that we are wrestling with here. ←
14:34:43 <pchampin> guus: for me, this use case is out of our scope, because owl:import has only operational semantics
Guus Schreiber: for me, this use case is out of our scope, because owl:import has only operational semantics ←
14:34:45 <mischat> davidwood: i understand that it is on the UC document, it looks like something for a primer about linked data and sparql stores
David Wood: i understand that it is on the UC document, it looks like something for a primer about linked data and sparql stores [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
14:34:46 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
14:34:52 <mischat> q?
Mischa Tuffield: q? ←
14:35:08 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
14:35:19 <sandro> gavin: The requirement is how owl:imports intereact with Named Graphs. If you treat owl:import as derefencing, you get different results from using it as the dataset tag.
Gavin Carothers: The requirement is how owl:imports intereact with Named Graphs. If you treat owl:import as derefencing, you get different results from using it as the dataset tag. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:36:02 <davidwood> mischat, yes, it will probably end up that way once we figure out how we name graphs.
David Wood: mischat, yes, it will probably end up that way once we figure out how we name graphs. ←
14:36:09 <sandro> PatHayes: It seems to me, part of the idea behind "Named Graphs", was the act of attaching a URI was a special thing to do. Just because an IRI retrieves a graph doesnt mean it's the 'name' of the graph. Could be several retreive it, but only one of those is its name.
Patrick Hayes: It seems to me, part of the idea behind "Named Graphs", was the act of attaching a URI was a special thing to do. Just because an IRI retrieves a graph doesnt mean it's the 'name' of the graph. Could be several retreive it, but only one of those is its name. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:36:22 <pchampin> pat: in the named graph paper, several URIs can resolve to a graph, but only one is officially naming it
Patrick Hayes: in the named graph paper, several URIs can resolve to a graph, but only one is officially naming it ←
14:36:44 <ivan> ack iand
Ivan Herman: ack iand ←
14:36:44 <sandro> PatHayes: It's okay to have an IRI that retreives different graphs at different times, as long as it's not the "name" of the graph
Patrick Hayes: It's okay to have an IRI that retreives different graphs at different times, as long as it's not the "name" of the graph [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:36:44 <Zakim> iand, you wanted to say there seems to be confusion between a namespace URI and an ontology URI
Zakim IRC Bot: iand, you wanted to say there seems to be confusion between a namespace URI and an ontology URI ←
14:36:49 <pchampin> ... you can have several other URIs doing weird thing for practical reasons
... you can have several other URIs doing weird thing for practical reasons ←
14:37:07 <sandro> -1 PatHayes -- I think it's core the Web Architecture that "identify" and "name" are the same thing.
Sandro Hawke: -1 PatHayes -- I think it's core the Web Architecture that "identify" and "name" are the same thing. ←
14:37:29 <iand> ack me
14:37:31 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
14:37:32 <PatHayes> sandro, that HAS to be wrong.
Patrick Hayes: sandro, that HAS to be wrong. ←
14:37:46 <pchampin> iand: coming back to the dublin core example, you can have many variants of the ontology, but they share the same ontology URI
Ian Davis: coming back to the dublin core example, you can have many variants of the ontology, but they share the same ontology URI ←
14:37:56 <sandro> gavin: Ontology URI is the name of ontology, the base URI, where it's published, etc....
Gavin Carothers: Ontology URI is the name of ontology, the base URI, where it's published, etc.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:37:59 <PatHayes> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
14:38:28 <sandro> q+ to talk about "identify"-vs-"name"
Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about "identify"-vs-"name" ←
14:38:32 <iand> actually I said dublin core has one namespace URI but could have multiple ontologies with different variants of OWL, each with their own URI
Ian Davis: actually I said dublin core has one namespace URI but could have multiple ontologies with different variants of OWL, each with their own URI ←
14:38:50 <gavinc> +1 iand
Gavin Carothers: +1 iand ←
14:38:56 <mischat> pchampin: had an answer for ivan, agree's with danbri
Pierre-Antoine Champin: had an answer for ivan, agree's with danbri [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
14:38:57 <sandro> (agreed iand)
Sandro Hawke: (agreed iand) ←
14:39:11 <PatHayes> q+ for identify/name when that gets to be a topic.
Patrick Hayes: q+ for identify/name when that gets to be a topic. ←
14:39:21 <mischat> pchampin: the ontology is more abstract than the graph
Pierre-Antoine Champin: the ontology is more abstract than the graph [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
14:39:31 <mischat> ivan: every OWL is an RDF graph
Ivan Herman: every OWL is an RDF graph [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
14:39:49 <mischat> ivan: conceptually every OWL can be mapped to a graph
Ivan Herman: conceptually every OWL can be mapped to a graph [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
14:40:03 <gavinc> iand, of course the "namespace" doesn't really exist in RDF
Gavin Carothers: iand, of course the "namespace" doesn't really exist in RDF ←
14:40:03 <pchampin> ack me
ack me ←
14:40:03 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to answer ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to answer ivan ←
14:40:21 <Guus> ack cygr
Guus Schreiber: ack cygr ←
14:40:29 <davidwood> From AWWW: http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#pr-use-uris
David Wood: From AWWW: http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#pr-use-uris ←
14:40:30 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
14:40:30 <pchampin> cygri: the OWL specs says how you can turn any ontology onto a graph
Richard Cyganiak: the OWL specs says how you can turn any ontology onto a graph ←
14:40:37 <davidwood> "To benefit from and increase the value of the World Wide Web, agents should provide URIs as identifiers for resources."
David Wood: "To benefit from and increase the value of the World Wide Web, agents should provide URIs as identifiers for resources." ←
14:40:48 <pchampin> ... also an ontology has an identifier (URI)
... also an ontology has an identifier (URI) ←
14:40:48 <danbri> re ontologies and graphs -- 'turn into', 'map to', 'is just a', ... hearing lots of phrases, 'translates into a', ...
Dan Brickley: re ontologies and graphs -- 'turn into', 'map to', 'is just a', ... hearing lots of phrases, 'translates into a', ... ←
14:40:57 <davidwood> Note that equates a URI and an identifier.
David Wood: Note that equates a URI and an identifier. ←
14:41:14 <pchampin> ... wouldn't it be great if OWL3 said "here is how an OWL ontology is mapped into a graph, here is how it is mapped into a named graph, here is..."
... wouldn't it be great if OWL3 said "here is how an OWL ontology is mapped into a graph, here is how it is mapped into a named graph, here is..." ←
14:41:29 <AndyS> Sounds like short-circuit of naming: name of concept/abstraction != name of graph that encodes (one way) the ontology
Andy Seaborne: Sounds like short-circuit of naming: name of concept/abstraction != name of graph that encodes (one way) the ontology ←
14:41:34 <pchampin> ivan: that's the job of the OWL3 WG
Ivan Herman: that's the job of the OWL3 WG ←
14:41:50 <danbri> ivan, so in FOAF we have from the ns URI both RDF/XML conneged with lots of triples, and text/html conneg defaulted, with a few triples via RDFa; --- is this one Ontology in your sense, or two?
Dan Brickley: ivan, so in FOAF we have from the ns URI both RDF/XML conneged with lots of triples, and text/html conneg defaulted, with a few triples via RDFa; --- is this one Ontology in your sense, or two? ←
14:41:51 <AlexHall> +1 AndyS
14:41:59 <pchampin> cygri: we can make things easier for the OWL3 WG to do that
Richard Cyganiak: we can make things easier for the OWL3 WG to do that ←
14:42:01 <davidwood> Also, http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#id-resources: "By design a URI identifies one resource"
David Wood: Also, http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#id-resources: "By design a URI identifies one resource" ←
14:42:08 <PatHayes> davidwood, what is your point? All that is about identification, not naming.
Patrick Hayes: davidwood, what is your point? All that is about identification, not naming. ←
14:42:14 <sandro> Provenance-WG is alll about describing conversion processes and their results.
Sandro Hawke: Provenance-WG is alll about describing conversion processes and their results. ←
14:42:37 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
14:42:58 <davidwood> PatHayes, my point is that we don't name anything on the Web other than with a URI. I must agree with Sandro that Web names are Web identifiers are Web URIs.
David Wood: PatHayes, my point is that we don't name anything on the Web other than with a URI. I must agree with Sandro that Web names are Web identifiers are Web URIs. ←
14:43:19 <davidwood> Perhaps we are using the term "name" differently?
David Wood: Perhaps we are using the term "name" differently? ←
14:43:31 <gavinc> davidwood, yes... however that one resource might have many descriptions
Gavin Carothers: davidwood, yes... however that one resource might have many descriptions ←
14:43:41 <sandro> AlexHall: Lots of copies of some ontology can exist on the web.
Alex Hall: Lots of copies of some ontology can exist on the web. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:43:51 <pchampin> alex: we are ok to have conflicting representation of the same ontology, with the same URI
Alex Hall: we are ok to have conflicting representation of the same ontology, with the same URI ←
14:43:54 <davidwood> Ah, your "names" are descriptions? Why not call them descriptions?
David Wood: Ah, your "names" are descriptions? Why not call them descriptions? ←
14:44:06 <PatHayes> david, in spite of what sandro says, the RDF specs and the named graph paper both disagree with y'all.
Patrick Hayes: david, in spite of what sandro says, the RDF specs and the named graph paper both disagree with y'all. ←
14:44:06 <davidwood> My "names" are handles.
David Wood: My "names" are handles. ←
14:44:07 <pchampin> ... conflict usually resolved by the application
... conflict usually resolved by the application ←
14:44:14 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
14:44:18 <mischat> davidwood: the tag have been talking about how "URIs define one resource" recently in the context of fragment ids in RDFa http://www.w3.org/mid/4E8F7DE2.5000908@digitalbazaar.com
David Wood: the tag have been talking about how "URIs define one resource" recently in the context of fragment ids in RDFa http://www.w3.org/mid/4E8F7DE2.5000908@digitalbazaar.com [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
14:45:19 <pchampin> ivan: two issues: you say that the same ontology graph will be present in different systems, meaning that dereferencing the URI of the ontology will return a copy
Ivan Herman: two issues: you say that the same ontology graph will be present in different systems, meaning that dereferencing the URI of the ontology will return a copy ←
14:45:24 <mischat> and people seem to be happy that a frag URIs can identify different things on the web ⦠based on the agent. which is slightly to danbri's point re: mime-types and conneg
Mischa Tuffield: and people seem to be happy that a frag URIs can identify different things on the web ⦠based on the agent. which is slightly to danbri's point re: mime-types and conneg ←
14:45:29 <sandro> ivan: "the same ontology graph will be present in many different systems" -- that's true, and means the name of the ontology, when dereferenced, it gives you a "core copy" of it....? But when you said "these representations can be different/conflicting with each other", I have a problem with that.
Ivan Herman: "the same ontology graph will be present in many different systems" -- that's true, and means the name of the ontology, when dereferenced, it gives you a "core copy" of it....? But when you said "these representations can be different/conflicting with each other", I have a problem with that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:45:30 <davidwood> mischat, interesting (and brave!)
David Wood: mischat, interesting (and brave!) ←
14:45:49 <sandro> +1 agreed, different ontologies with the same name -- that's a bug.
Sandro Hawke: +1 agreed, different ontologies with the same name -- that's a bug. ←
14:45:51 <pchampin> ... but saying that those copies may be conflicting, it is a bug (a useful bug, but a bug)
... but saying that those copies may be conflicting, it is a bug (a useful bug, but a bug) ←
14:46:04 <davidwood> PatHayes, can you point me to a section in the RDF docs that makes your point clear?
David Wood: PatHayes, can you point me to a section in the RDF docs that makes your point clear? ←
14:46:29 <cygri> different ontologies with same name is not a bug. it's a difference in opinion.
Richard Cyganiak: different ontologies with same name is not a bug. it's a difference in opinion. ←
14:46:41 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
14:46:44 <PatHayes> ivan , why is the name considered "core"? I suggest that is a mistake. The name is attached by some kind of baptism.
Patrick Hayes: ivan , why is the name considered "core"? I suggest that is a mistake. The name is attached by some kind of baptism. ←
14:46:46 <swh> mischat, using rat URIs to distinguish relies upon client-side modification, by definition
Steve Harris: mischat, using tag URIs to distinguish relies upon client-side modification, by definition ←
14:46:51 <swh> s/rat/tag/
14:46:53 <pchampin> guus: is it the work of this WG to solve this?
Guus Schreiber: is it the work of this WG to solve this? ←
14:47:01 <pchampin> sandro, gavin, david: YES
sandro, gavin, david: YES ←
14:47:06 <mischat> swh: frag?
Steve Harris: frag? [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
14:47:14 <danbri> cygri, can you phrase that equally-ish 'it's a single ontology that people are saying different things about'? (might not even be a different opinion, just a different choice of assertions)
Dan Brickley: cygri, can you phrase that equally-ish 'it's a single ontology that people are saying different things about'? (might not even be a different opinion, just a different choice of assertions) ←
14:47:16 <sandro> sandro: there's nothing OWL-specific here; it comes up in any case of RDF.
Sandro Hawke: there's nothing OWL-specific here; it comes up in any case of RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:47:20 <iand> mischat, danbri: don't think you should conneg ontologies that define things differently - conneg variants are supposed to be basically interchangeable
Ian Davis: mischat, danbri: don't think you should conneg ontologies that define things differently - conneg variants are supposed to be basically interchangeable ←
14:47:25 <pchampin> guus: suggest we have a separate document about RDF authorities
Guus Schreiber: suggest we have a separate document about RDF authorities ←
14:47:30 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
14:47:34 <sandro> "The Role of Derefencing in RDF" -- a new RDF WG Note.
Sandro Hawke: "The Role of Derefencing in RDF" -- a new RDF WG Note. ←
14:47:38 <swh> mischat, fragment URIs, I was replying to your point :)
Steve Harris: mischat, fragment URIs, I was replying to your point :) ←
14:47:38 <sandro> ?
Sandro Hawke: ? ←
14:47:43 <mischat> yeah i see
Mischa Tuffield: yeah i see ←
14:47:48 <pchampin> ivan: it means that the dereferencing model does not work
Ivan Herman: it means that the dereferencing model does not work ←
14:48:06 <danbri> iand, can you define 'basically interchangeable'? e.g. 'same intellectual content' ... can we conneg Flash and SVG? .MP3 and .WAV? PDF and HTML5?
Dan Brickley: iand, can you define 'basically interchangeable'? e.g. 'same intellectual content' ... can we conneg Flash and SVG? .MP3 and .WAV? PDF and HTML5? ←
14:48:22 <pchampin> gavin: you mean that the web does not work...
Gavin Carothers: you mean that the web does not work... ←
14:48:35 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
14:48:47 <sandro> ack sandro
Sandro Hawke: ack sandro ←
14:48:47 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about "identify"-vs-"name"
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about "identify"-vs-"name" ←
14:48:48 <ivan> ack AlexHall
Ivan Herman: ack AlexHall ←
14:48:49 <Guus> ack AlexHall
Guus Schreiber: ack AlexHall ←
14:49:53 <cygri> httpRange-14 is mentioned. it'll be all downhill from here
Richard Cyganiak: httpRange-14 is mentioned. it'll be all downhill from here ←
14:49:55 <ivan> but that means if we have a local dataset that uses for a name a 'global' (or core) URI, that would not dereference to the local copy in the dataset but it would go somewhere else. Ie, putting URI dereferencing into the dataset model may go wrong
Ivan Herman: but that means if we have a local dataset that uses for a name a 'global' (or core) URI, that would not dereference to the local copy in the dataset but it would go somewhere else. Ie, putting URI dereferencing into the dataset model may go wrong ←
14:50:07 <danbri> zakim, who is playing music?
Dan Brickley: zakim, who is playing music? ←
14:50:08 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danbri.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, danbri. ←
14:50:13 <pchampin> sandro: the web-arch way for a URI to identify a thing is not the same as the RDF way
Sandro Hawke: the web-arch way for a URI to identify a thing is not the same as the RDF way ←
14:50:36 <AndyS> resolved httpRange-14?
Andy Seaborne: resolved httpRange-14? ←
14:50:57 <pchampin> pat: agree with sandro, the httpRange-14 solves this, but has the WG endorsed it?
Patrick Hayes: agree with sandro, the httpRange-14 solves this, but has the WG endorsed it? ←
14:51:29 <iand> We need a godwins law for httprange-14
Ian Davis: We need a godwins law for httprange-14 ←
14:51:37 <cygri> coffee break?
Richard Cyganiak: coffee break? ←
14:53:00 <pchampin> (pat and sandro arguing about following the TAG or not in their resolution of httpRange-14)
(pat and sandro arguing about following the TAG or not in their resolution of httpRange-14) ←
14:53:48 <pchampin> pat: httpRange-14 does not say anything about what resource a IRI identifies, only what *kind* of resource
Patrick Hayes: httpRange-14 does not say anything about what resource a IRI identifies, only what *kind* of resource ←
14:53:53 <iand> let's get coffee then httprange-14 will be resolved when we get back
Ian Davis: let's get coffee then httprange-14 will be resolved when we get back ←
14:54:36 <yvesr> iand, it will have resolved itself
Yves Raimond: iand, it will have resolved itself ←
14:54:42 <sandro> :-) :-) <iand> We need a godwins law for httprange-14
Sandro Hawke: :-) :-) <iand> We need a godwins law for httprange-14 ←
14:54:59 <pchampin> guus: can we get a clear statement of what we expect as a result of this WG
Guus Schreiber: can we get a clear statement of what we expect as a result of this WG ←
14:55:04 <yvesr> i quite liked the idea of a note
Yves Raimond: i quite liked the idea of a note ←
14:55:07 <pchampin> ... not in terms of semantics, but of pragmatics
... not in terms of semantics, but of pragmatics ←
14:56:07 <pchampin> sandro: there should be a document explaining how dereference relates to RDF
Sandro Hawke: there should be a document explaining how dereference relates to RDF ←
14:56:10 <pchampin> guus: agree
Guus Schreiber: agree ←
14:56:23 <sandro> sandro: It sounds like we should be working on a document (Note, Rec, part of Rec) aboud how dereference relates to RDF.
Sandro Hawke: It sounds like we should be working on a document (Note, Rec, part of Rec) aboud how dereference relates to RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:56:32 <sandro> PatHayes: amen
Patrick Hayes: amen [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:57:37 <PatHayes> david, re. your earlier question, see http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#urisandlit
Patrick Hayes: david, re. your earlier question, see http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#urisandlit ←
14:58:08 <davidwood> Thanks, Pathayes
David Wood: Thanks, Pathayes ←
14:58:12 <PatHayes> OK, see yall in an hour.
Patrick Hayes: OK, see yall in an hour. ←
14:58:17 <AZ> gentlemen, I have to leave now
Antoine Zimmermann: gentlemen, I have to leave now ←
14:58:34 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
14:58:55 <AZ> bye
Antoine Zimmermann: bye ←
14:59:04 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
15:03:37 <Zakim> -ww
Zakim IRC Bot: -ww ←
15:09:02 <Zakim> -MIT_Meeting_Room
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -MIT_Meeting_Room ←
15:56:50 <Guus> reconvene in 5?
(No events recorded for 47 minutes)
Guus Schreiber: reconvene in 5? ←
15:57:11 <AlexHall> still missing most of the room at MIT
Alex Hall: still missing most of the room at MIT ←
16:01:13 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
16:01:45 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:03:37 <Zakim> +MIT_Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: +MIT_Meeting_Room ←
16:04:07 <Guus> welcome bac, MIT meeting room
Guus Schreiber: welcome bac, MIT meeting room ←
16:05:17 <danbri> davidwood, can you hear us?
Dan Brickley: davidwood, can you hear us? ←
16:05:25 <danbri> EUROPE CALLING AMERICAS
Dan Brickley: EUROPE CALLING AMERICAS ←
16:05:38 <sandro> MIT is back on the phone.
Sandro Hawke: MIT is back on the phone. ←
16:07:54 <ericP> topic: meta-discussion of how to make progress in F2F
16:08:21 <tlebo> davidwood: name, identifier, dereferencing is causing problems.
David Wood: name, identifier, dereferencing is causing problems. [ Scribe Assist by Tim Lebo ] ←
16:08:23 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
16:08:32 <davidwood> ack PatHayes
David Wood: ack PatHayes ←
16:08:32 <Zakim> PatHayes, you wanted to discuss identify/name when that gets to be a topic.
Zakim IRC Bot: PatHayes, you wanted to discuss identify/name when that gets to be a topic. ←
16:08:35 <ericP> davidwood: after 6 months, we're still not using terms consistently enough to enable progress
David Wood: after 6 months, we're still not using terms consistently enough to enable progress [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
16:08:48 <ericP> ... suggestions for way forward?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... suggestions for way forward? ←
16:08:56 <davidwood> ack Guus
David Wood: ack Guus ←
16:09:07 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)
16:09:16 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:09:21 <ericP> Guus: i feel we moved forward a bit before the break:
Guus Schreiber: i feel we moved forward a bit before the break: ←
16:09:39 <ericP> ... .. some consensus that we need names for at least graphs, maybe more
... .. some consensus that we need names for at least graph containers, maybe more ←
16:09:54 <ericP> ... .. some sense of the requirements these impose on RDF
... .. some sense of the requirements these impose on RDF ←
16:10:10 <ericP> ... .. use cases lead us to the deferencing dicusssion
... .. use cases lead us to the deferencing dicusssion ←
16:10:45 <ericP> ... still not clear how rdf dataset relates to g{snap,box}
... still not clear how rdf dataset relates to g{snap,box} ←
16:10:52 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
16:11:09 <ericP> davidwood: we need names for at least graph containers (gboxes)
David Wood: we need names for at least graph containers (gboxes) ←
16:11:35 <ericP> s/names for at least graphs, maybe more/names for at least graph containers, maybe more/
16:12:07 <ericP> davidwood: paraphrasing PatHayes, "a name is not an identifier"
David Wood: paraphrasing PatHayes, "a name is not an identifier" ←
16:12:08 <yvesr> r
Yves Raimond: r ←
16:12:15 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
16:12:30 <ericP> ... "... we can have multiple names for things"
... "... we can have multiple names for things" ←
16:12:47 <sandro> pat: We're not obliged to presume that "naming" and "identifying" are the same relationships.
Patrick Hayes: We're not obliged to presume that "naming" and "identifying" are the same relationships. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:12:49 <ericP> PatHayes: the notion of name and identifier are disctinct
Patrick Hayes: the notion of name and identifier are disctinct ←
16:13:02 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:13:05 <ericP> ... no position on whether they *should* be the same
... no position on whether they *should* be the same ←
16:13:45 <ericP> cygri: i think we made progress on understanding peoples' positions and requirements, as well as what's easy or hard
Richard Cyganiak: i think we made progress on understanding peoples' positions and requirements, as well as what's easy or hard ←
16:14:11 <ericP> ... can we discuss what we can write over the coming weeks to make progress?
... can we discuss what we can write over the coming weeks to make progress? ←
16:14:13 <sandro> cygri: let's figure out what we should write in the coming weeks
Richard Cyganiak: let's figure out what we should write in the coming weeks [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:27 <ericP> ... e.g. i think we should gather use cases
... e.g. i think we should gather use cases ←
16:14:28 <LeeF_> +â for test cases
Lee Feigenbaum: +â for test cases ←
16:14:50 <sandro> cygri: eg: patterns for use of named graphs, that exist in the wild, and potentially cause interop conflicts.
Richard Cyganiak: eg: patterns for use of named graphs, that exist in the wild, and potentially cause interop conflicts. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:54 <ericP> ... we should look for different existing use patterns which will reveal problems at e.g. SPARQL endpoints
... we should look for different existing use patterns which will reveal problems at e.g. SPARQL endpoints ←
16:15:07 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:15:09 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:15:12 <ericP> +1 to test cases
+1 to test cases ←
16:15:13 <davidwood> ack Guus
David Wood: ack Guus ←
16:15:15 <PatHayes> leef, what symbol was that?
Patrick Hayes: leef, what symbol was that? ←
16:15:23 <ericP> Guus: +1 to test cases
Guus Schreiber: +1 to test cases ←
16:15:49 <ericP> ... want to see which we should put in RDF semantics and which are outside pragmatics
... want to see which we should put in RDF semantics and which are outside pragmatics ←
16:15:51 <sandro> PatHayes, it was a unicode snowman
Sandro Hawke: PatHayes, it was a unicode snowman ←
16:16:01 <davidwood> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2603/index.htm
David Wood: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2603/index.htm ←
16:16:07 <sandro> (or not. hard to see.)
Sandro Hawke: (or not. hard to see.) ←
16:16:09 <PatHayes> :-)
Patrick Hayes: :-) ←
16:16:14 <ericP> ... folks already have pragmatic approaches. the question is whether we can incorporate some of that into RDF
... folks already have pragmatic approaches. the question is whether we can incorporate some of that into RDF ←
16:16:37 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:16:40 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:16:51 <ericP> Guus: with respect to naming and referencing, i don't expect us to put stuff into Semantics, but it will be in tests
Guus Schreiber: with respect to naming and referencing, i don't expect us to put stuff into Semantics, but it will be in tests ←
16:17:37 <ericP> sandro: in gavin's use case, several folks said "there's a bug here"
Sandro Hawke: in gavin's use case, several folks said "there's a bug here" ←
16:17:49 <LeeF_> PatHayes, http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/
Lee Feigenbaum: PatHayes, http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/ ←
16:18:00 <ericP> ... we can try to solidify that
... we can try to solidify that ←
16:18:23 <ericP> davidwood: "can a document IRI and the graph IRI be the same?"
David Wood: "can a document IRI and the graph IRI be the same?" ←
16:18:32 <ericP> gavinc: and the ontology IRI?
Gavin Carothers: and the ontology IRI? ←
16:18:44 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:18:54 <ericP> sandro: is the ontology's name for itself the same as its location?
Sandro Hawke: is the ontology's name for itself the same as its location? ←
16:19:03 <ericP> gavinc: axes:
Gavin Carothers: axes: ←
16:19:08 <ericP> ... .. graph name
... .. graph name ←
16:19:09 <sandro> graph-name vs location
Sandro Hawke: graph-name vs location ←
16:19:19 <ericP> ... .. <x> a Ontology.
... .. <x> a Ontology. ←
16:19:39 <ericP> ... .. where you can retrieve the [ontology?]
... .. where you can retrieve the [ontology?] ←
16:19:52 <AlexHall> :g1 { :g1 a owl:Ontology }
Alex Hall: :g1 { :g1 a owl:Ontology } ←
16:20:04 <swh> if <x> a Ontology, surely <x> should't be a graph? c.f. Person and graph
Steve Harris: if <x> a Ontology, surely <x> should't be a graph? c.f. Person and graph ←
16:20:06 <ericP> ... i think the prob exists on these axes
... i think the prob exists on these axes ←
16:20:26 <danbri> we no hear
Dan Brickley: we no hear ←
16:20:32 <mischat> can people speak in turn please
Mischa Tuffield: can people speak in turn please ←
16:20:49 <danbri> we heard a little of all of them
Dan Brickley: we heard a little of all of them ←
16:20:57 <ericP> ... { <x> a Ontology } gets repeated everywhere
... { <x> a Ontology } gets repeated everywhere ←
16:21:32 <sandro> sandro: possible test case, if we can infer a type for locations and/or names.
Sandro Hawke: possible test case, if we can infer a type for locations and/or names. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:21:34 <ericP> LeeF: is it kosher for the graph name to be X and for X to be the ontology triple
Lee Feigenbaum: is it kosher for the graph name to be X and for X to be the ontology triple ←
16:21:45 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:21:49 <PatHayes> this sounds very like the question whether one iri can identify the NYTimes and also one day's version of it.
Patrick Hayes: this sounds very like the question whether one iri can identify the NYTimes and also one day's version of it. ←
16:21:55 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:21:55 <AndyS> no
Andy Seaborne: no ←
16:21:55 <gavinc> HTTP GET <g1> ; :g1 { :g1 a owl:Ontology }
Gavin Carothers: HTTP GET <g1> ; :g1 { :g1 a owl:Ontology } ←
16:22:09 <ericP> davidwood: we should at least provide guidance to the community
David Wood: we should at least provide guidance to the community ←
16:22:36 <PatHayes> that is exactly what I meant by using a name inside some rdf.
Patrick Hayes: that is exactly what I meant by using a name inside some rdf. ←
16:22:48 <ericP> ivan: sandro vs. cygri controversy: should the formal part of the RDF docs talk about dereferencing the graph name
Ivan Herman: sandro vs. cygri controversy: should the formal part of the RDF docs talk about dereferencing the graph name ←
16:22:55 <PatHayes> once you do that, it belongs to trhe semantics.
Patrick Hayes: once you do that, it belongs to trhe semantics. ←
16:23:09 <ericP> ... if the answer is "no", we can discuss writing additional guidance documents
... if the answer is "no", we can discuss writing additional guidance documents ←
16:23:11 <tlebo> is Gavin's #1 "graph name" of the Graph Container?
Tim Lebo: is Gavin's #1 "graph name" of the Graph Container? ←
16:23:14 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
Patrick Hayes: +1 to ivan ←
16:23:24 <ericP> ... that question is the fundamental question
... that question is the fundamental question ←
16:23:34 <ericP> q+ to say we won't knwo until we've explored the use cases
q+ to say we won't knwo until we've explored the use cases ←
16:23:40 <swh> +1 to ivan
Steve Harris: +1 to ivan ←
16:23:51 <cygri> q+ to give an example from sindice
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to give an example from sindice ←
16:23:52 <ericP> sandro: i think we're only going to answer that question by working up from test cases
Sandro Hawke: i think we're only going to answer that question by working up from test cases ←
16:24:12 <ericP> ivan: so let's look at tests keeping this in mind
Ivan Herman: so let's look at tests keeping this in mind ←
16:24:18 <pfps> test cases can provide information on what a solution might look like, but they don't help much to determine what the solution is
Peter Patel-Schneider: test cases can provide information on what a solution might look like, but they don't help much to determine what the solution is ←
16:24:36 <swh> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
16:25:05 <ericP> ... if the semantics requires a particular way of dereferencing the name or graph, would that change antidot's implementation?
... if the semantics requires a particular way of dereferencing the name or graph, would that change antidot's implementation? ←
16:25:05 <PatHayes> test cases give useful information about intuitions. better than arguing :-)
Patrick Hayes: test cases give useful information about intuitions. better than arguing :-) ←
16:25:14 <mischat> +1 to ivan, all conversations we have had today seem to involve talk about dereferencing, linked data, and quads, but this hasn't been discussed yet.
Mischa Tuffield: +1 to ivan, all conversations we have had today seem to involve talk about dereferencing, linked data, and quads, but this hasn't been discussed yet. ←
16:25:14 <gavinc> +100 PatHayes
Gavin Carothers: +100 PatHayes ←
16:25:16 <sandro> The Formal Semantics document is just one way to make a spec. First let's figure out what we want to spec.
Sandro Hawke: The Formal Semantics document is just one way to make a spec. First let's figure out what we want to spec. ←
16:25:17 <cygri> PatHayes, but less fun!
Richard Cyganiak: PatHayes, but less fun! ←
16:25:26 <LeeF_> :)
Lee Feigenbaum: :) ←
16:25:50 <PatHayes> ericP, this irc record.
Patrick Hayes: ericP, this irc record. ←
16:25:56 <davidwood> ack ericP
David Wood: ack ericP ←
16:25:56 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say we won't knwo until we've explored the use cases
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say we won't knwo until we've explored the use cases ←
16:27:12 <sandro> ericP: The SemWeb limps along, we're used to, we compose SPARQL queries that connnect different graphs, we're not surprised by individuals lying to us, etc. But Sandro is trying to enable things beyond what we are doing now. We don't want to make sure we don't rule out these use cases in the future.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: The SemWeb limps along, we're used to, we compose SPARQL queries that connnect different graphs, we're not surprised by individuals lying to us, etc. But Sandro is trying to enable things beyond what we are doing now. We want to make sure we don't rule out these use cases in the future. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:27:20 <swh> q-
Steve Harris: q- ←
16:27:45 <AlexHall> s/don't want to make sure/want to make sure/
16:27:55 <sandro> ... without understand how we can take this to a system where there is consistency between platforms, ... we need to figure out how we want the system to work before deciding what goes in the semantics document.
Sandro Hawke: ... without understand how we can take this to a system where there is consistency between platforms, ... we need to figure out how we want the system to work before deciding what goes in the semantics document. ←
16:28:03 <swh> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
16:28:18 <sandro> PatHayes: I agree, but we may find it can't be done in the Semantic Document. Be ready to be told "I can't do it".
Patrick Hayes: I agree, but we may find it can't be done in the Semantic Document. Be ready to be told "I can't do it". [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:28:21 <ericP> PatHayes,
PatHayes, ←
16:28:25 <pfps> +1 to Pat :-)
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to Pat :-) ←
16:28:45 <sandro> davidwood: if you can't do it, where does that leave us?
David Wood: if you can't do it, where does that leave us? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:29:12 <sandro> PatHayes: without precisely defined semantics. maybe that's okay.
Patrick Hayes: without precisely defined semantics. maybe that's okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:29:30 <ericP> sandro, what do you feel about the semantics being defined in natural language and test cases?
Sandro Hawke: what do you feel about the semantics being defined in natural language and test cases? ←
16:29:31 <pfps> Test cases are not a definition. Natural language can be rather squishy.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Test cases are not a definition. Natural language can be rather squishy. ←
16:29:37 <danbri> we'd need specific examples of the test cases
Dan Brickley: we'd need specific examples of the test cases ←
16:29:39 <sandro> sandro: How bad would it be to do it with natural language and test cases?
Sandro Hawke: How bad would it be to do it with natural language and test cases? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:29:49 <ericP> PatHayes: that's like asking a horse trainer how they feel about life without horses
Patrick Hayes: that's like asking a horse trainer how they feel about life without horses ←
16:30:04 <sandro> PatHayes: There's a long language of clashes resolves by formal semantics. If we can do it that way we should.
Patrick Hayes: There's a long language of clashes resolves by formal semantics. If we can do it that way we should. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:30:07 <ericP> ... the world can get by, but [there's a cost]
... the world can get by, but [there's a cost] ←
16:30:12 <sandro> davidwood: Thanks Pat!
David Wood: Thanks Pat! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:30:17 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:30:17 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to give an example from sindice
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to give an example from sindice ←
16:30:31 <ericP> ... but don't be surprised if i can't write the semantics that you guys arrive at
... but don't be surprised if i can't write the semantics that you guys arrive at ←
16:30:42 <PatHayes> squishy, good one.
Patrick Hayes: squishy, good one. ←
16:30:44 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
16:30:59 <sandro> s/sandro, what do/sandro: what do/
16:31:15 <ericP> cygri: re: dereferencing, we have a web crawling use case about an RDF search engine
Richard Cyganiak: re: dereferencing, we have a web crawling use case about an RDF search engine ←
16:31:23 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28C_priority.29_Web_crawling
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28C_priority.29_Web_crawling ←
16:31:27 <Souri> q+ to confirm that we are discussing three things: graph name for an ontology, name of the ontology, location from where the ontology (or graph) i available
Souripriya Das: q+ to confirm that we are discussing three things: graph name for an ontology, name of the ontology, location from where the ontology (or graph) is available ←
16:31:47 <PatHayes> 'ontology
Patrick Hayes: 'ontology ←
16:31:53 <ericP> ... it takes a URL X, dereferences it, put's the parse into GRAPH <X>
... it takes a URL X, dereferences it, put's the parse into GRAPH <X> ←
16:31:55 <PatHayes> sorry
Patrick Hayes: sorry ←
16:31:57 <Souri> s/ i av/ is av/
16:32:18 <ericP> ... it supports the truth that sandro wants
... it supports the truth that sandro wants ←
16:32:45 <ericP> ... if we want to define this formally, we have to discuss @@1
... if we want to define this formally, we have to discuss @@1 ←
16:32:53 <ericP> ... in 2006, that was RDF/XML
... in 2006, that was RDF/XML ←
16:33:03 <ericP> ... in 2007, RDF/XML and Turtle
... in 2007, RDF/XML and Turtle ←
16:33:16 <sandro> cygri: sindice's dataset uses the fetch-from location as the tag, and its graph containers. when we built this in 2006, this was parsed from RDF/XML, then conneg, then sniffing, then microformats support added, then RDFa, then microdata, ... and some day json-ld, etc.
Richard Cyganiak: sindice's dataset uses the fetch-from location as the tag, and its graph containers. when we built this in 2006, this was parsed from RDF/XML, then conneg, then sniffing, then microformats support added, then RDFa, then microdata, ... and some day json-ld, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:33:24 <ericP> ... then we added RDFa, ntriples, microdata, ...
... then we added RDFa, ntriples, microdata, ... ←
16:33:36 <sandro> cygri: The notion of dereferencing has changed over the years.
Richard Cyganiak: The notion of dereferencing has changed over the years. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:33:44 <ericP> ... the notion of dereferencing has changed over the years
... the notion of dereferencing has changed over the years ←
16:34:12 <PatHayes> this is exactly why we had an abstract notion of rdf graph, to provide a level of abstraction above particulr syntax.
Patrick Hayes: this is exactly why we had an abstract notion of rdf graph, to provide a level of abstraction above particulr syntax. ←
16:34:25 <pchampin> who wrote earlier that time was not the only parameter?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: who wrote earlier that time was not the only parameter? ←
16:34:29 <ericP> ... how do we write a formal spec that tells us how to dereference?
... how do we write a formal spec that tells us how to dereference? ←
16:34:51 <ericP> davidwood: can you tell me if 4.2 is subsumes 4.9 or 1.3?
David Wood: can you tell me if 4.2 is subsumes 4.9 or 1.3? ←
16:34:56 <PatHayes> uri for the test cases?
Patrick Hayes: uri for the test cases? ←
16:35:02 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:35:06 <ericP> sandro: [addressing cygri]
Sandro Hawke: [addressing cygri] ←
16:35:09 <PatHayes> q
Patrick Hayes: q ←
16:35:21 <PatHayes> q
Patrick Hayes: q ←
16:35:22 <danbri> q?
Dan Brickley: q? ←
16:35:22 <ericP> ... i don't have a pat answer, but i think we can come up with something that's good enough
... i don't have a pat answer, but i think we can come up with something that's good enough ←
16:35:23 <gavinc> PatHayes, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28C_priority.29_Web_crawling
Gavin Carothers: PatHayes, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28C_priority.29_Web_crawling ←
16:35:26 <PatHayes> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:35:46 <PatHayes> thanks gavin
Patrick Hayes: thanks gavin ←
16:36:09 <ericP> cygri: i think that a formal semantics must be precise, so we need to reduce our scope to what we can be precise about
Richard Cyganiak: i think that a formal semantics must be precise, so we need to reduce our scope to what we can be precise about ←
16:36:41 <PatHayes> typing with one hand, return and shift keys too close.
Patrick Hayes: typing with one hand, return and shift keys too close. ←
16:36:43 <ericP> ... there's something else that can be done which is sort of hand-wavey which would be useful; recording this pattern
... there's something else that can be done which is sort of hand-wavey which would be useful; recording this pattern ←
16:37:20 <davidwood> acl swh
David Wood: acl swh ←
16:37:21 <ericP> ... but writing to rules to establish if <G> is a conforming something of an IRI could be hard
... but writing to rules to establish if <G> is a conforming something of an IRI could be hard ←
16:37:24 <davidwood> ack swh
David Wood: ack swh ←
16:37:50 <ericP> swh: agreed with ericP to a point, but have a different conclusion:
Steve Harris: agreed with ericP to a point, but have a different conclusion: ←
16:38:18 <ericP> ... .. none of the use cases we've discussed benifits from a formal semantics for dereferencing
... .. none of the use cases we've discussed benifits from a formal semantics for dereferencing ←
16:38:42 <davidwood> ack Souri
David Wood: ack Souri ←
16:38:43 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to confirm that we are discussing three things: graph name for an ontology, name of the ontology, location from where the ontology (or graph) i available
Zakim IRC Bot: Souri, you wanted to confirm that we are discussing three things: graph name for an ontology, name of the ontology, location from where the ontology (or graph) i available ←
16:38:57 <ericP> ... so unless we can find another use case, i think we can spend our time better elsewhere
... so unless we can find another use case, i think we can spend our time better elsewhere ←
16:39:06 <ericP> Souri: in the ontology case, i see three things:
Souripriya Das: in the ontology case, i see three things: ←
16:39:10 <ericP> ... .. graph name
... .. graph name ←
16:39:16 <ericP> ... .. ontology name
... .. ontology name ←
16:39:21 <ericP> ... .. location
... .. location ←
16:39:32 <davidwood> 5.2
David Wood: 5.2 ←
16:39:44 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_OWL.27s_.E2.80.9COntology_Documents.E2.80.9D
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_OWL.27s_.E2.80.9COntology_Documents.E2.80.9D ←
16:39:50 <ericP> Souri: these could all be different
Souripriya Das: these could all be different ←
16:39:57 <tlebo> is "graph name" of the container or g-snap?
Tim Lebo: is "graph name" of the container or g-snap? ←
16:40:05 <ericP> ... can we add properties like rdf:availableFrom?
... can we add properties like rdf:availableFrom? ←
16:40:42 <tlebo> q+
Tim Lebo: q+ ←
16:40:45 <ericP> ... if folks want to use one IRI for all, fine
... if folks want to use one IRI for all, fine ←
16:40:53 <pfps> right now OWL works fine without any further semantics for ontology names
Peter Patel-Schneider: right now OWL works fine without any further semantics for ontology names ←
16:41:04 <tlebo> q-
Tim Lebo: q- ←
16:41:08 <ericP> ... if not, we can give them some properties to describe their relationships
... if not, we can give them some properties to describe their relationships ←
16:41:21 <davidwood> ack PatHayes
David Wood: ack PatHayes ←
16:41:26 <ericP> davidwood: by "graph", gsnap or gbox?
David Wood: by "graph", gsnap or gbox? ←
16:42:03 <Guus> suggest to go to the wikidata usecase
Guus Schreiber: suggest to go to the wikidata usecase ←
16:42:14 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:42:24 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
16:42:27 <ericP> PatHayes: from cygri listing the syntaxes each year, the notion of defining dereferencing would be to address exactly that
Patrick Hayes: from cygri listing the syntaxes each year, the notion of defining dereferencing would be to address exactly that ←
16:42:37 <ericP> ... i thought that was the one part we got exactly right
... i thought that was the one part we got exactly right ←
16:43:03 <ericP> cygri: one of the cool things about syndice is that we can push a bunch of stuff down the pipe and we get triples
Richard Cyganiak: one of the cool things about syndice is that we can push a bunch of stuff down the pipe and we get triples ←
16:43:12 <ericP> ... the process is really complicated
... the process is really complicated ←
16:43:29 <ericP> ... HTTP, mime time, sniffing, ...
... HTTP, mime type, sniffing, ... ←
16:43:46 <ivan> s/mime time/mime type/
16:43:47 <ericP> ... we learn more about this all the time
... we learn more about this all the time ←
16:44:03 <gavinc> s/mime type/media type/ ;)
16:44:17 <ericP> ... getting from the IRI to the graph is hard to specify
... getting from the IRI to the graph is hard to specify ←
16:44:37 <ericP> ... i'm more interested in what you get after you dereference and parse and all that
... i'm more interested in what you get after you dereference and parse and all that ←
16:44:47 <swh> there can even be multiple was to get from a URI to different graphs, e.g. conneg + RDFa
Steve Harris: there can even be multiple was to get from a URI to different graphs, e.g. conneg + RDFa ←
16:45:15 <swh> +1 to not specifying it
Steve Harris: +1 to not specifying it ←
16:45:20 <yvesr> swh, and conneg'ed graphs may be different too
Yves Raimond: swh, and conneg'ed graphs may be different too ←
16:45:29 <swh> indeed
Steve Harris: indeed ←
16:45:30 <cygri> ericP++
Richard Cyganiak: ericP++ ←
16:45:33 <yvesr> swh, (as it does on the bbc site, for example, although i agree it's not ideal)
Yves Raimond: swh, (as it does on the bbc site, for example, although i agree it's not ideal) ←
16:45:56 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:46:03 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
16:47:42 <cygri> ericP: from the same input URI, you could end up with quite different snaps because of different processing that was done
Eric Prud'hommeaux: from the same input URI, you could end up with quite different snaps because of different processing that was done [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
16:48:08 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:49:35 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:49:38 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
16:49:39 <ericP> PatHayes: we violated the obvious deferencing rules when we decided that IRIs in RDF could identify graphs
Patrick Hayes: we violated the obvious deferencing rules when we decided that IRIs in RDF could identify graphs ←
16:50:08 <sandro> The mentioned decision was: "Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not necessarily "name" graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs (relevant to ISSUE-30)" http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-04-14#resolution_1
Sandro Hawke: The mentioned decision was: "Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not necessarily "name" graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs (relevant to ISSUE-30)" http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-04-14#resolution_1 ←
16:50:34 <iand> do sparql datasets consist of g-snaps or g-boxes?
Ian Davis: do sparql datasets consist of g-snaps or g-boxes? ←
16:50:42 <cygri> iand, g-snaps
Richard Cyganiak: iand, g-snaps ←
16:51:07 <cygri> (with g-boxes it's a âgraph storeâ, defined in the SPARQL Update spec)
Richard Cyganiak: (with g-boxes it's a âgraph storeâ, defined in the SPARQL Update spec) ←
16:51:22 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ←
16:51:29 <iand> cygri: i don't agree that a g-box is a graph store
Richard Cyganiak: i don't agree that a g-box is a graph store [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
16:52:11 <cygri> iand: what AndyS is saying
Ian Davis: what AndyS is saying [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
16:52:32 <danbri> nor I
Dan Brickley: nor I ←
16:52:42 <iand> cygri: isn't a g-box a set of g-snaps with the same name?
Richard Cyganiak: isn't a g-box a set of g-snaps with the same name? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
16:53:06 <Souri> s/tanks/thanks/
Souripriya Das: s/tanks/thanks/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
16:53:19 <danbri> if I have a github repo with 15 versions of some RDF doc (er, graph), ... is that a g-box?
Dan Brickley: if I have a github repo with 15 versions of some RDF doc (er, graph), ... is that a g-box? ←
16:53:20 <davidwood> iand: no, I don't think so
Ian Davis: no, I don't think so [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:53:28 <cygri> iand, no. g-snaps don't have names as such
Richard Cyganiak: iand, no. g-snaps don't have names as such ←
16:53:38 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Trust_Web_Opinions
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Trust_Web_Opinions ←
16:53:39 <gavinc> gavinc: A graph store is made up of gboxes, a dataset is made up of g-snaps
Gavin Carothers: A graph store is made up of gboxes, a dataset is made up of g-snaps [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
16:53:41 <cygri> g-snap = mathematical set of triples
Richard Cyganiak: g-snap = mathematical set of triples ←
16:53:48 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:54:16 <davidwood> TOPIC: 4.9 (A PRIORITY) Trust Web Opinions
16:54:27 <AndyS> +1 gavinc -- what needs clarifying is graph store -> dataset for query, not graph store or dataset themselves
Andy Seaborne: +1 gavinc -- what needs clarifying is graph store -> dataset for query, not graph store or dataset themselves ←
16:55:58 <ericP> sandro: people are publishing useful info on the web
Sandro Hawke: people are publishing useful info on the web ←
16:56:12 <ericP> ... alice is searchnig for a good local seafood restaurant
... alice is searchnig for a good local seafood restaurant ←
16:56:31 <iand> cygri: can't get my head round g-snaps not having names if SPARQL datasets are made of named g-snaps
Richard Cyganiak: can't get my head round g-snaps not having names if SPARQL datasets are made of named g-snaps [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
16:56:35 <davidwood> iand: Also, a g-box is mutable and not a 'set'
Ian Davis: Also, a g-box is mutable and not a 'set' [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:56:35 <ericP> ... there are different modes of failure sensitive to the data she may find:
... there are different modes of failure sensitive to the data she may find: ←
16:56:47 <ericP> ... .. deception (people lying)
... .. deception (people lying) ←
16:56:48 <cygri> iand: named graph = pair of uri and g-snap
Ian Davis: named graph = pair of uri and g-snap [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
16:56:57 <ericP> ... .. errors (mistakes in the data)
... .. errors (mistakes in the data) ←
16:57:03 <cygri> sparql dataset = set of named graphs, plus a default graph (= g-snap)
Richard Cyganiak: sparql dataset = set of named graphs, plus a default graph (= g-snap) ←
16:57:05 <ericP> ... .. simplication
... .. simplication ←
16:57:10 <ericP> ... .. time lag
... .. time lag ←
16:57:21 <ericP> ... .. subjectivity
... .. subjectivity ←
16:57:49 <iand> cygri: you are saying named graphs are graphs without names that have a name associated with them
Richard Cyganiak: you are saying named graphs are graphs without names that have a name associated with them [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
16:57:50 <ericP> ... [of course] this occurs in science, IT (e.g. employee directory)
... [of course] this occurs in science, IT (e.g. employee directory) ←
16:58:11 <cygri> iand i don't think i said that
Richard Cyganiak: iand i don't think i said that ←
16:58:13 <ericP> ... i haven't yet tied this down to test cases
... i haven't yet tied this down to test cases ←
16:58:20 <gavinc> iand, could you use "," and not ":" the minutes will be very annoying otherwise
Gavin Carothers: iand, could you use "," and not ":" the minutes will be very annoying otherwise ←
16:58:45 <ericP> ... e.g. i don't want to endorse a gbox; i want to endorse a gsnap (review changes out from under your endorsement)
... e.g. i don't want to endorse a gbox; i want to endorse a gsnap (review changes out from under your endorsement) ←
16:59:06 <ericP> davidwood: she already knows about the sources of reviews, but she doesn't know which she can trust
David Wood: she already knows about the sources of reviews, but she doesn't know which she can trust ←
16:59:07 <iand> gavinc, yep, sorry
Ian Davis: gavinc, yep, sorry ←
16:59:47 <ericP> sandro: say she's using sindice to find seafood restos
Sandro Hawke: say she's using sindice to find seafood restos ←
16:59:54 <PatHayes> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
17:00:07 <ericP> davidwood: alice goes to sindice and gets RDF for resto reviews
David Wood: alice goes to sindice and gets RDF for resto reviews ←
17:00:24 <ericP> ... upon what data/metadata is she "trusting" the review?
... upon what data/metadata is she "trusting" the review? ←
17:00:43 <ericP> sandro: she had to know her threat model to manage her security
Sandro Hawke: she had to know her threat model to manage her security ←
17:01:02 <ericP> ... .. deception: web of trust
... .. deception: web of trust ←
17:01:17 <ericP> ... .. error: crowd sourcing
... .. error: crowd sourcing ←
17:01:23 <ericP> ... .. time lag...
... .. time lag... ←
17:01:35 <ericP> davidwood: i'd like to get here with 1.3
David Wood: i'd like to get here with 1.3 ←
17:02:14 <ericP> ... implicit in this is that a given review published in the web must be spidered by sindice or alice, ...
... implicit in this is that a given review published in the web must be spidered by sindice or alice, ... ←
17:02:32 <ericP> ... in spidering, they must capture provenance data (where, when, ...)
... in spidering, they must capture provenance data (where, when, ...) ←
17:02:54 <ericP> sandro: sindice could just give alice the locations, and she fetches them
Sandro Hawke: sindice could just give alice the locations, and she fetches them ←
17:03:21 <swh> if sindice just gives Alice a URI should just judge timeliness without trusting the publisher
Steve Harris: if sindice just gives Alice a URI she can't just judge timeliness without trusting the publisher ←
17:03:26 <danbri> it's a myth that you need URIs to do things
Dan Brickley: it's a myth that you need URIs to do things ←
17:03:29 <danbri> it's just a lot easier
Dan Brickley: it's just a lot easier ←
17:03:34 <swh> s/should/she can't/
17:03:44 <ericP> davidwood: she'll need at least one bit of metadata, the IRI, or much more
David Wood: she'll need at least one bit of metadata, the IRI, or much more ←
17:03:52 <PatHayes> All these issues come up on the web right now. People seem to manage, on the whole. Might be worth trying to figure out how/why and provide similar funcitonality for people to use in RDF.
Patrick Hayes: All these issues come up on the web right now. People seem to manage, on the whole. Might be worth trying to figure out how/why and provide similar funcitonality for people to use in RDF. ←
17:04:06 <ericP> ... if sindice finds a resto review in RDF, what's it try to GET?
... if sindice finds a resto review in RDF, what's it try to GET? ←
17:04:37 <ericP> cygri: deferences, parses (many parsers)
Richard Cyganiak: deferences, parses (many parsers) ←
17:04:44 <ericP> ... records:
... records: ←
17:04:48 <ericP> ... .. domain name
... .. domain name ←
17:04:51 <ericP> ... .. time
... .. time ←
17:04:57 <ericP> ... .. HTTP headers
... .. HTTP headers ←
17:05:10 <ericP> ivan: the name of the graph is the IRI which gave you the IRI?
Ivan Herman: the name of the graph is the IRI which gave you the IRI? ←
17:05:12 <ericP> cygri: yes
Richard Cyganiak: yes ←
17:05:51 <ericP> davidwood: if we standardized a named graph: named gbox or named gsnap, would that help?
David Wood: if we standardized a named graph: named gbox or named gsnap, would that help? ←
17:06:07 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
17:06:15 <sandro> q+ to reply to "don't stdize deref"
Sandro Hawke: q+ to reply to "don't stdize deref" ←
17:06:16 <ericP> cygri: don't try to specify the dererencing step
Richard Cyganiak: don't try to specify the dererencing step ←
17:06:16 <PatHayes> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
17:06:28 <ericP> ... would be immediately outdated
... would be immediately outdated ←
17:06:32 <PatHayes> i wrote my comment.
Patrick Hayes: i wrote my comment. ←
17:07:01 <ericP> davidwood: would a standard for gboxes or gsnaps help the sindice use case?
David Wood: would a standard for gboxes or gsnaps help the sindice use case? ←
17:07:12 <ericP> cygri: practically, no; it's already implemented
Richard Cyganiak: practically, no; it's already implemented ←
17:07:29 <ericP> ... would make it easier for us to discuss what we do in terms others would understand
... would make it easier for us to discuss what we do in terms others would understand ←
17:07:32 <gavinc> PatHayes, for one thing humans don't treat IRIs as opaque. A review from "http://linkspamsite.com/blah" is magicly downranked
Gavin Carothers: PatHayes, for one thing humans don't treat IRIs as opaque. A review from "http://linkspamsite.com/blah" is magicly downranked ←
17:07:57 <ericP> ... i listed this because i don't want the WG to standardize something harmful
... i listed this because i don't want the WG to standardize something harmful ←
17:08:00 <gavinc> ack sandro
Gavin Carothers: ack sandro ←
17:08:00 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to reply to "don't stdize deref"
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to reply to "don't stdize deref" ←
17:08:45 <cygri> http://sparql.sindice.com/sparql
Richard Cyganiak: http://sparql.sindice.com/sparql ←
17:08:50 <PatHayes> gavin, nice. to me that suggests we could use a way to say foo is downrated in RDF. Now ask what kind of thing foo is...
Patrick Hayes: gavin, nice. to me that suggests we could use a way to say foo is downrated in RDF. Now ask what kind of thing foo is... ←
17:09:45 <ericP> sandro: if alice's software is speaking to sindice, using SPARQL against the dataset, it would help if here code knew that sindice is using their named graph convention
Sandro Hawke: if alice's software is speaking to sindice, using SPARQL against the dataset, it would help if here code knew that sindice is using their named graph convention ←
17:10:31 <cygri> q+ to ask about test cases for "to dereference, follow the standards"
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to ask about test cases for "to dereference, follow the standards" ←
17:10:35 <ericP> ... re: specifying dereferencing, i don't want to specify the mechanics; we can just lean on the specs (which is what PatHayes identified as the bit of the semantics that works)
... re: specifying dereferencing, i don't want to specify the mechanics; we can just lean on the specs (which is what PatHayes identified as the bit of the semantics that works) ←
17:10:39 <swh> That sounds like a job for a vocabulary, not sure it's the RDF-WGs problem
Steve Harris: That sounds like a job for a vocabulary, not sure it's the RDF-WGs problem ←
17:10:48 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
17:10:57 <sandro> +1 steam-powered parsers!!
Sandro Hawke: +1 steam-powered parsers!! ←
17:11:04 <AndyS> And in the limit (geo-IP) not everyone may see the same thing for exactly the same request.
Andy Seaborne: And in the limit (geo-IP) not everyone may see the same thing for exactly the same request. ←
17:11:04 <AlexHall> +1 swh
17:11:15 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
17:11:29 <tlebo> can't we phrase dereferencing as http:Requesting a rdf2:GraphContainer to obtain a http:Representation of a rdf2:Graph, http:ContentNegotiated to a particular rdf2:GraphSerialization ?
Tim Lebo: can't we phrase dereferencing as http:Requesting a rdf2:GraphContainer to obtain a http:Representation of a rdf2:Graph, http:ContentNegotiated to a particular rdf2:GraphSerialization ? ←
17:11:29 <ericP> PatHayes: if someone has a new steam-powered parser, they just have to describe in painstaking detail how it emits triples
Patrick Hayes: if someone has a new steam-powered parser, they just have to describe in painstaking detail how it emits triples ←
17:11:56 <ericP> ivan: if we use this black box, do we exclude names?
Ivan Herman: if we use this black box, do we exclude names? ←
17:12:19 <gavinc> Yeah, sounds like a job for the vocabulary, but I think we get right back to what is that vocab talking about, a Resource in a Graph or "The Graph". Where "Graph" is our nice new meaning of gbox+gsnap
Gavin Carothers: Yeah, sounds like a job for the vocabulary, but I think we get right back to what is that vocab talking about, a Resource in a Graph or "The Graph". Where "Graph" is our nice new meaning of gbox+gsnap ←
17:12:25 <ericP> ... e.g. AndyS's suggestion for using tag IRNs for time-stamped data
... e.g. AndyS's suggestion for using tag IRNs for time-stamped data ←
17:13:16 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
17:13:20 <ericP> sandro: dereferencing is the way we learn the intent of the identifier
Sandro Hawke: dereferencing is the way we learn the intent of the identifier ←
17:13:21 <AlexHall> gavinc, yeah we need to make sure that the vocabulary has something to talk about
Alex Hall: gavinc, yeah we need to make sure that the vocabulary has something to talk about ←
17:13:34 <danbri> q+ to grouch
Dan Brickley: q+ to grouch ←
17:13:46 <danbri> de-referability is not a property of URI scheme
Dan Brickley: de-referability is not a property of URI scheme ←
17:14:01 <danbri> http://www.dlib.org/dlib/june98/06powell.html
Dan Brickley: http://www.dlib.org/dlib/june98/06powell.html ←
17:14:41 <yvesr> q?
Yves Raimond: q? ←
17:14:49 <PatHayes> all uris dereferenced for a nominal fee. money-back guarantee.
Patrick Hayes: all uris dereferenced for a nominal fee. money-back guarantee. ←
17:14:49 <danbri> q-
Dan Brickley: q- ←
17:14:53 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
17:14:53 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about test cases for "to dereference, follow the standards"
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to ask about test cases for "to dereference, follow the standards" ←
17:14:56 <gavinc> 0K box!
Gavin Carothers: 0K box! ←
17:15:00 <danbri> q+
Dan Brickley: q+ ←
17:15:02 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
17:15:29 <ericP> cygri: so we leave dereferencing as a black box (leave to standards)
Richard Cyganiak: so we leave dereferencing as a black box (leave to standards) ←
17:15:48 <ericP> ... but i don't see how to write test cases
... but i don't see how to write test cases ←
17:16:30 <ericP> ... if it's a specification, it should be possible to write a test case
... if it's a specification, it should be possible to write a test case ←
17:16:38 <ericP> sandro: i agree with your goal
Sandro Hawke: i agree with your goal ←
17:16:53 <PatHayes> which, btw sandro, is one reason why naming/reference cannot be identical to awww:identifies.
Patrick Hayes: which, btw sandro, is one reason why naming/reference cannot be identical to awww:identifies. ←
17:16:59 <ericP> ... most dereferences are in HTTP and there's a little glue around the edges
... most dereferences are in HTTP and there's a little glue around the edges ←
17:17:52 <ericP> ... i haven't got a test case and agree that we need then
... i haven't got a test case and agree that we need then ←
17:18:09 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
17:18:13 <ericP> sandro: names and awww:identifies could be congruant functions
Sandro Hawke: names and awww:identifies could be congruant functions ←
17:18:18 <davidwood> ack danbri
David Wood: ack danbri ←
17:19:28 <davidwood> 1.3 (A PRIORITY) Graph Changes Over Time
David Wood: 1.3 (A PRIORITY) Graph Changes Over Time ←
17:19:29 <PatHayes> 8 track tapes...
Patrick Hayes: 8 track tapes... ←
17:19:30 <ericP> danbri: re: deferencing, you speak as if dereferencability as it it were a behavior of the schema, but it evolves
Dan Brickley: re: deferencing, you speak as if dereferencability as it it were a behavior of the schema, but it evolves ←
17:19:31 <yvesr> q?
Yves Raimond: q? ←
17:19:32 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Graph_Changes_Over_Time
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Graph_Changes_Over_Time ←
17:19:49 <PatHayes> of course
Patrick Hayes: of course ←
17:19:53 <swh> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
17:19:53 <sandro> pfps if we can't discuss history are we doomed to repeat it? :-)
Sandro Hawke: pfps if we can't discuss history are we doomed to repeat it? :-) ←
17:20:02 <davidwood> ack swh
David Wood: ack swh ←
17:20:03 <danbri> resolved: de-referencability is not a simple characteristic of a URI scheme, but depends on social and technical mess surrounding us
Dan Brickley: : de-referencability is not a simple characteristic of a URI scheme, but depends on social and technical mess surrounding us ←
17:20:29 <davidwood> Ugh
David Wood: Ugh ←
17:20:35 <davidwood> s/resolved//
17:20:42 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
17:20:46 <ericP> swh: in our system you need to have different graphs at the same IRI at different times
Steve Harris: in our system you need to have different graphs at the same IRI at different times ←
17:21:05 <PatHayes> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
17:21:10 <tlebo> :URL rdfs:subClassOf rdf2:GraphContainer ?
Tim Lebo: :URL rdfs:subClassOf rdf2:GraphContainer ? ←
17:21:19 <ericP> ... we need to say that some info was in <X> at one time but not later
... we need to say that some info was in <X> at one time but not later ←
17:21:36 <ericP> ... so of course you can't *just* use <X>
... so of course you can't *just* use <X> ←
17:21:39 <tlebo> rdfs2:GraphContainer owl:disjointWith rdf2:Graph .
Tim Lebo: rdfs2:GraphContainer owl:disjointWith rdf2:Graph . ←
17:22:01 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
17:22:05 <ericP> ... we just use <X-2011-10-12T17:22:05>
... we just use <X-2011-10-12T17:22:05> ←
17:22:19 <ericP> ... looked at MD5, but it was a pain
... looked at MD5, but it was a pain ←
17:22:30 <swh> we actually use <http://foo.example/foo#2011-10-12>
Steve Harris: we actually use <http://foo.example/foo#2011-10-12> ←
17:22:57 <danbri> (q: are anyone's 'graphs' computed from other 'graphs' rather than simply fetched? am assuming so but didn't hear much mention of this...)
Dan Brickley: (q: are anyone's 'graphs' computed from other 'graphs' rather than simply fetched? am assuming so but didn't hear much mention of this...) ←
17:23:10 <PatHayes> do you need to be able to tell, by looking at the iri, which way it works (box or snap name) ?
Patrick Hayes: do you need to be able to tell, by looking at the iri, which way it works (box or snap name) ? ←
17:23:33 <ericP> sandro: if you use <http://garlic.com/graphs/http://foo.example/foo#2011-10-12>, you could own that graph and say that it's attached to <http://foo.example/foo#2011-10-12>
Sandro Hawke: if you use <http://garlic.com/graphs/http://foo.example/foo#2011-10-12>, you could own that graph and say that it's attached to <http://foo.example/foo#2011-10-12> ←
17:23:43 <tlebo> @pathayes, no, interrogate its rdf:types ?
Tim Lebo: @pathayes, no, interrogate its rdf:types ? ←
17:23:51 <iand> +1 swh - this is first use case where graph name cannot be same as source of triples
Ian Davis: +1 swh - this is first use case where graph name cannot be same as source of triples ←
17:23:55 <ericP> ivan: we've never said that a graph need have only one name
Ivan Herman: we've never said that a graph need have only one name ←
17:24:03 <sandro> really I said garlic + date + fetched-url
Sandro Hawke: really I said garlic + date + fetched-url ←
17:24:15 <danbri> I have swh's use case too; it's quite a common pattern and worth naming/documenting/exposing
Dan Brickley: I have swh's use case too; it's quite a common pattern and worth naming/documenting/exposing ←
17:24:17 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
17:24:28 <sandro> q+ to talk about rolling snapshots
Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about rolling snapshots ←
17:24:32 <ericP> PatHayes: i think that there's one name, which if you use it as a graph name, changes meaning from time to time
Patrick Hayes: i think that there's one name, which if you use it as a graph name, changes meaning from time to time ←
17:24:45 <mischat> we didn't go for http://www.garlik.com/?url=http://example.com/&time=2010⦠to save bytes FWIW
Mischa Tuffield: we didn't go for http://www.garlik.com/?url=http://example.com/&time=2010⦠to save bytes FWIW ←
17:25:23 <swh> mischat, that's right
Steve Harris: mischat, that's right ←
17:25:29 <ericP> ivan: we have the notion of a "graph container" and a graph at different IRIs
Ivan Herman: we have the notion of a "graph container" and a graph at different IRIs ←
17:25:41 <ericP> gavinc: do they *have* to be different IRIs?
Gavin Carothers: do they *have* to be different IRIs? ←
17:25:46 <sandro> makes sense, mischat --- but you COULD quite easily, and then it would totally conform with "Web Semantics for Datasets".
Sandro Hawke: makes sense, mischat --- but you COULD quite easily, and then it would totally conform with "Web Semantics for Datasets". ←
17:27:40 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
17:27:51 <sandro> davidwood: Possible consensus: The identifier for a graph container is disjoijnt with the identifier with the g-snap (rdf graph).
David Wood: Possible consensus: The identifier for a graph container is disjoijnt with the identifier with the g-snap (rdf graph). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:27:57 <mischat> we were could have done, but we built this a while ago, before this conversation. we do this by using SPARQL to insert triples into a triplestore. and as far as we were aware we were conforming
Mischa Tuffield: we were could have done, but we built this a while ago, before this conversation. we do this by using SPARQL to insert triples into a triplestore. and as far as we were aware we were conforming ←
17:28:11 <PatHayes> you could use one iri to identify a grap and a container, but dont record that use in any published rdf.
Patrick Hayes: you could use one iri to identify a grap and a container, but dont record that use in any published rdf. ←
17:28:12 <ericP> davidwood: gavinc thinks that he's heard an emerging concensus that the graph container must be different from the name for a graph
David Wood: gavinc thinks that he's heard an emerging concensus that the graph container must be different from the name for a graph ←
17:28:32 <ericP> ... objections?
... objections? ←
17:28:59 <davidwood> Yes, there were (thankfully) objectons
David Wood: Yes, there were (thankfully) objectons ←
17:29:08 <swh> LOAD <http://foo.example/> will do that
Steve Harris: LOAD <http://foo.example/> will do that ←
17:29:32 <ericP> swh: as applied globally, yes
Steve Harris: as applied globally, yes ←
17:29:45 <PatHayes> disjoint is too strong.
Patrick Hayes: disjoint is too strong. ←
17:29:49 <ericP> davidwood: and here, so we don't have consensus here
David Wood: and here, so we don't have consensus here ←
17:30:04 <PatHayes> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
17:30:05 <pchampin> q+
17:30:22 <ericP> sandro: [chasing why this breaks SPARQL]
Sandro Hawke: [chasing why this breaks SPARQL] ←
17:30:26 <cygri> q+ to say that if <u> *denotes* a graph container, then it must still be possible to associate <u> with a graph graph in an RDF dataset
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to say that if <u> *denotes* a graph container, then it must still be possible to associate <u> with a graph graph in an RDF dataset ←
17:30:46 <mischat> isn't the beauty of it that you can choose to use the URL of where you dereferenced it from, or use whatever URI you wish when sticking it into your sparqlstore
Mischa Tuffield: isn't the beauty of it that you can choose to use the URL of where you dereferenced it from, or use whatever URI you wish when sticking it into your sparqlstore ←
17:31:15 <LeeF_> SELECT .... FROM <g1> { ... }
Lee Feigenbaum: SELECT .... FROM <g1> { ... } ←
17:31:22 <LeeF_> g1 specifies a graph container
Lee Feigenbaum: g1 specifies a graph container ←
17:31:25 <LeeF_> it gets dereferenced
Lee Feigenbaum: it gets dereferenced ←
17:31:31 <LeeF_> and put into a local graph container that is also named g1
Lee Feigenbaum: and put into a local graph container that is also named g1 ←
17:31:40 <LeeF_> local g1 is contextualized by the invocation of the quer
Lee Feigenbaum: local g1 is contextualized by the invocation of the quer ←
17:31:41 <ericP> timlebo: when you specify the SPARQL query, the FROM IRI sites the graph container, GRAPH <IRI> dereferences IRI and stores it locally
Tim Lebo: when you specify the SPARQL query, the FROM IRI sites the graph container, GRAPH <IRI> dereferences IRI and stores it locally ←
17:31:46 <PatHayes> agree with cygri, but want to add cautions regarding denoting-use in rdf which assumes connection to association.
Patrick Hayes: agree with cygri, but want to add cautions regarding denoting-use in rdf which assumes connection to association. ←
17:31:51 <AndyS> FROM ==> FROM NAMED
Andy Seaborne: FROM ==> FROM NAMED ←
17:31:53 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
17:32:14 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
17:32:14 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say that if <u> *denotes* a graph container, then it must still be possible to associate <u> with a graph graph in an RDF dataset
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to say that if <u> *denotes* a graph container, then it must still be possible to associate <u> with a RDF Graph (gsnap) in an RDF dataset ←
17:32:39 <ericP> ... so the SPARQL query against your local <IRI> is contextualized by your dereference
... so the SPARQL query against your local <IRI> is contextualized by your dereference ←
17:32:57 <sandro> +1 cygri
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri ←
17:33:00 <gavinc> s/graph graph/RDF Graph (gsnap)
17:33:02 <gavinc> s/graph graph/RDF Graph (gsnap)/
17:33:20 <AndyS> It is a bad part of SPARQL. Promotes lazy naming. (and DAWG removed it once ... community wanted it back)
Andy Seaborne: It is a bad part of SPARQL. Promotes lazy naming. (and DAWG removed it once ... community wanted it back) ←
17:33:42 <ericP> cygri: if i deference http://example.com/ (which may change tomorrow), i serialize it into a trig file
Richard Cyganiak: if i deference http://example.com/ (which may change tomorrow), i serialize it into a trig file ←
17:33:56 <PatHayes> im losing sound here.
Patrick Hayes: im losing sound here. ←
17:34:18 <ericP> ... that trig file serializes a gsnap which i want to associate with the gbox (<http://example.com/>)
... that trig file serializes a gsnap which i want to associate with the gbox (<http://example.com/>) ←
17:34:34 <davidwood> PatHayes, we hear BBC. Perhaps you should redial?
David Wood: PatHayes, we hear BBC. Perhaps you should redial? ←
17:34:44 <sandro> Can't there be an eg:hasGraph relation between the gbox and the gsnap?
Sandro Hawke: Can't there be an eg:hasGraph relation between the gbox and the gsnap? ←
17:35:10 <ericP> ... one identifier denotes a graph container @@2
... one identifier denotes a graph container @@2 ←
17:35:15 <PatHayes> in a spec we can mention lazy naming and point out how useful it is but also say how dangerous it can be with detailed warnings.
Patrick Hayes: in a spec we can mention lazy naming and point out how useful it is but also say how dangerous it can be with detailed warnings. ←
17:35:35 <sandro> q++++
Sandro Hawke: q++++ ←
17:35:41 <ericP> ivan: i understand the example, and it makes me uneasy that the same IRI denotes two conceptually distinct things
Ivan Herman: i understand the example, and it makes me uneasy that the same IRI denotes two conceptually distinct things ←
17:35:45 <LeeF_> where in this example is a URI being used for a gsnap?
Lee Feigenbaum: where in this example is a URI being used for a gsnap? ←
17:35:47 <gavinc> ack +++
Gavin Carothers: ack +++ ←
17:35:48 <AndyS> PatHayes - good idea - say "don't publish - use locally"
Andy Seaborne: PatHayes - good idea - say "don't publish - use locally" ←
17:35:56 <PatHayes> +1 ivan
Patrick Hayes: +1 ivan ←
17:36:00 <ericP> ... maybe we have to live with conflation
... maybe we have to live with conflation ←
17:36:09 <iand1> So we are back to "(15:04:03) davidwood: Propose to RESOLVE "we need a way to name graph containers""
Ian Davis: So we are back to "(15:04:03) davidwood: Propose to RESOLVE "we need a way to name graph containers"" ←
17:36:09 <PatHayes> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
17:36:09 <LeeF_> +1 to living with the conflation!!
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 to living with the conflation!! ←
17:36:18 <tlebo> Still thinks that adopting <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/> vs. my:#http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/# and your:#http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/# addresses this confusion.
Tim Lebo: Still thinks that adopting <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/> vs. my:#http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/# and your:#http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/# addresses this confusion. ←
17:36:23 <pchampin> q-
17:36:26 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
17:36:26 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about rolling snapshots
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about rolling snapshots ←
17:36:28 <gavinc> +1 to living with conflation
Gavin Carothers: +1 to living with conflation ←
17:36:38 <iand1> -1 to conflation
17:36:50 <ericP> sandro: i have issues with an IRI denoting two things
Sandro Hawke: i have issues with an IRI denoting two things ←
17:36:51 <cygri> danbri++
Richard Cyganiak: danbri++ ←
17:37:15 <ericP> danbri: it's just an unspecified relationship
Dan Brickley: it's just an unspecified relationship ←
17:37:21 <PatHayes> because people want to be happily sloppy, sandro.
Patrick Hayes: because people want to be happily sloppy, sandro. ←
17:37:27 <ericP> sandro: so why can't we specify that relationship?
Sandro Hawke: so why can't we specify that relationship? ←
17:38:00 <ericP> ... particular predicates can imply the <bgox of>
... particular predicates can imply the <gbox of> ←
17:38:03 <ericP> q?
q? ←
17:38:14 <yvesr> s/bgox/gbox
17:38:20 <PatHayes> this is very like the problem of giving iris to editions of documents, seems to me.
Patrick Hayes: this is very like the problem of giving iris to editions of documents, seems to me. ←
17:38:20 <iand1> can someone propose some concrete text to discuss?
Ian Davis: can someone propose some concrete text to discuss? ←
17:39:04 <ericP> davidwood: we have namespace all over RDF
David Wood: we have namespace all over RDF ←
17:39:28 <ericP> ... we have IRIs which point to SPAQL enpoints which point to resources
... we have IRIs which point to SPAQL enpoints which point to resources ←
17:39:39 <tlebo> @PatHayes, frbr:Work vs frbr:Expression gives you clean disjointness of editions and their more abstract documents.
Tim Lebo: @PatHayes, frbr:Work vs frbr:Expression gives you clean disjointness of editions and their more abstract documents. ←
17:40:17 <tlebo> q+
Tim Lebo: q+ ←
17:40:24 <PatHayes> i know, tlebo. i wish all these scruffy people would agree to that disciplined.
Patrick Hayes: i know, tlebo. i wish all these scruffy people would agree to that disciplined. ←
17:40:34 <PatHayes> to/to be/
Patrick Hayes: to/to be/ ←
17:40:42 <ericP> davidwood: these identifiers liter our RDF graphs
David Wood: these identifiers liter our RDF graphs ←
17:40:52 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
17:41:01 <sandro> q+ to talk about rolling snapshots
Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about rolling snapshots ←
17:41:04 <PatHayes> use imperial measures to solve that one.
Patrick Hayes: use imperial measures to solve that one. ←
17:41:07 <gavinc> GET <http://example.org> ; <http://example.org> { <http://example.org> example: "http://example.org"^^xsd:anyURI }
Gavin Carothers: GET <http://example.org> ; <http://example.org> { <http://example.org> example: "http://example.org"^^xsd:anyURI } ←
17:41:08 <danbri> tlebo, path, frbr distinctions are too often anything but clean when you try to get people to make specific decisions that apply them in practice
Dan Brickley: tlebo, path, frbr distinctions are too often anything but clean when you try to get people to make specific decisions that apply them in practice ←
17:41:10 <ericP> ... my position is that we should accept the dual nature of those IRIs as identifiers and collapse the duality when we open the box
... my position is that we should accept the dual nature of those IRIs as identifiers and collapse the duality when we open the box ←
17:41:14 <davidwood> ack tlebo
David Wood: ack tlebo ←
17:41:29 <LeeF_> I'm pretty happy to go ahead being sloppy in violation of the semantics -- presumably, some day there will be a tool that is really valuable that relies on me following the semantics and then i will be motivated to change my implementation :)
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm pretty happy to go ahead being sloppy in violation of the semantics -- presumably, some day there will be a tool that is really valuable that relies on me following the semantics and then i will be motivated to change my implementation :) ←
17:41:35 <ericP> tlebo: propose that URLs are a subclass of graph container which you dereference to a graph
Tim Lebo: propose that URLs are a subclass of graph container which you dereference to a graph ←
17:41:38 <yvesr> danbri, +1
Yves Raimond: danbri, +1 ←
17:42:04 <AndyS> LeeF, suspect world+dog agrees with you
Andy Seaborne: LeeF, suspect world+dog agrees with you ←
17:42:36 <PatHayes> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
17:42:38 <ericP> ... (when we're talking about RDF graphs)
... (when we're talking about RDF graphs) ←
17:42:46 <danbri> LeeF, the WG is the tool, and the semantics are where we write stuff down so we don't forget exactly what we decided...
Dan Brickley: LeeF, the WG is the tool, and the semantics are where we write stuff down so we don't forget exactly what we decided... ←
17:42:53 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
17:42:54 <swh> we're processing HTML mostly, not RDF
Steve Harris: we're processing HTML mostly, not RDF ←
17:43:18 <ivan> before break: there is something that we _did_ learn today: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Carandache
Ivan Herman: before break: there is something that we _did_ learn today: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Carandache ←
17:43:19 <davidwood> Topic: 10 minute break
17:43:23 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
17:43:28 <LeeF_> danbri, i'm not sure i understand what you're saying -- you're saying the semantics in the spec by themselves should be enough for me to change my implementation? that's unlikely
Lee Feigenbaum: danbri, i'm not sure i understand what you're saying -- you're saying the semantics in the spec by themselves should be enough for me to change my implementation? that's unlikely ←
17:43:30 <tlebo> +1
Tim Lebo: +1 ←
17:44:05 <AndyS> MIT has gone silent (here)
Andy Seaborne: MIT has gone silent (here) ←
17:44:20 <sandro> we muted for the break, AndyS
Sandro Hawke: we muted for the break, AndyS ←
17:45:38 <danbri> LeeF_, no, more that you shouldn't be sat there, waiting and dissapointed, when no fabulous js/Java/php library comes along proving the usefulness of the Semantics. Rather, the fact that most such libraries more or less work well with each other, is partly due to things having been written down in obsessive detail in the semantics (and in testcases, sure)
Dan Brickley: LeeF_, no, more that you shouldn't be sat there, waiting and dissapointed, when no fabulous js/Java/php library comes along proving the usefulness of the Semantics. Rather, the fact that most such libraries more or less work well with each other, is partly due to things having been written down in obsessive detail in the semantics (and in testcases, sure) ←
18:00:49 <davidwood> Reconvene
(No events recorded for 15 minutes)
David Wood: Reconvene ←
18:01:10 <AlexHall> scribe: alexhall
(Scribe set to Alex Hall)
18:01:23 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
18:01:25 <ivan> scribenick: AlexHall
18:01:32 <LeeF_> If there were more people using Windows then there would be more people agreeing with me about just living with the conflation :-)
Lee Feigenbaum: If there were more people using Windows then there would be more people agreeing with me about just living with the conflation :-) ←
18:01:46 <AlexHall> davidwood: don't think we ever really talked about UC 1.3. Steve started to and didn't finish, did you have anything else?
David Wood: don't think we ever really talked about UC 1.3. Steve started to and didn't finish, did you have anything else? ←
18:01:55 <davidwood> Topic: 1.5 (A PRIORITY) Exchanging the contents of RDF stores
18:01:55 <AlexHall> swh: no, that was it
Steve Harris: no, that was it ←
18:02:07 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Exchanging_the_contents_of_RDF_stores
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28A_PRIORITY.29_Exchanging_the_contents_of_RDF_stores ←
18:02:22 <AlexHall> davidwood: whose use case?
David Wood: whose use case? ←
18:02:28 <swh> I want it :)
Steve Harris: I want it :) ←
18:02:47 <davidwood> iand?
David Wood: iand? ←
18:02:59 <iand1> nooo
18:03:09 <AlexHall> swh: related to backups... how to move between stores? Things like trig do it fairly well except the default graph issue
Steve Harris: related to backups... how to move between stores? Things like trig do it fairly well except the default graph issue ←
18:03:26 <sandro> swh: TriG doesn't work for this if the default graph is the merge of all the named graphs.
Steve Harris: TriG doesn't work for this if the default graph is the merge of all the named graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:03:27 <AlexHall> ... duplicate every triple if dft graph = union of ngs
... duplicate every triple if dft graph = union of ngs ←
18:03:37 <AlexHall> ... also issues around bnodes
... also issues around bnodes ←
18:04:43 <PatHayes> why should the default be the union of named graphs??? that sounds like an obviously wrong general assumption.
Patrick Hayes: why should the default be the union of named graphs??? that sounds like an obviously wrong general assumption. ←
18:04:53 <AlexHall> ivan: trig syntax won't tell you what is the default graph
Ivan Herman: trig syntax won't tell you what is the default graph ←
18:05:16 <sandro> PatHayes, it's not a general assumption -- it's just how some SPARQL engines are set up.
Sandro Hawke: PatHayes, it's not a general assumption -- it's just how some SPARQL engines are set up. ←
18:05:31 <AndyS> PatHayes, "can be" -- common pattern and they use NG to manage data (subsets of the data)
Andy Seaborne: PatHayes, "can be" -- common pattern and they use NG to manage data (subsets of the data) ←
18:05:34 <sandro> (steve's in particular, by default.)
Sandro Hawke: (steve's in particular, by default.) ←
18:05:39 <pchampin> q+
18:05:42 <AlexHall> guus: not a sparql store developer -- what's the issue here?
Guus Schreiber: not a sparql store developer -- what's the issue here? ←
18:05:45 <PatHayes> so, why are we even talking about this?
Patrick Hayes: so, why are we even talking about this? ←
18:06:12 <PatHayes> ok, so trig needs to be extended in some way?
Patrick Hayes: ok, so trig needs to be extended in some way? ←
18:06:14 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
18:06:14 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about rolling snapshots
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about rolling snapshots ←
18:06:15 <AlexHall> ???: many stores define the default graph specially
???: many stores define the default graph specially ←
18:06:23 <PatHayes> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
18:06:46 <sandro> sandro: The other thing TriG doesn't do for this UC is bnodes (unless skolemized)
Sandro Hawke: The other thing TriG doesn't do for this UC is bnodes (unless skolemized) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:07:20 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
18:07:22 <ericP> swh, how about a meta comment in trig like this:? @SPARQL: CONSTRUCT { ?s ?p ?o } WHERE { GRAPH ?g { ?s ?p ?o } } .
Eric Prud'hommeaux: swh, how about a meta comment in trig like this:? @SPARQL: CONSTRUCT { ?s ?p ?o } WHERE { GRAPH ?g { ?s ?p ?o } } . ←
18:08:20 <AlexHall> pchampin: think i disagree that this is a problem with trig. dataset is an immutable structure. how the default graph was defined is irrelevant.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: think i disagree that this is a problem with trig. dataset is an immutable structure. how the default graph was defined is irrelevant. ←
18:08:22 <AndyS> TriG can do bNodes - just a small decision on scope - "small consensus" was doc-wide but point decision to be made. Orthogonal (later)
Andy Seaborne: TriG can do bNodes - just a small decision on scope - "small consensus" was doc-wide but point decision to be made. Orthogonal (later) ←
18:08:42 <davidwood> INSERT DATA { GRAPH <g> {} } ...
David Wood: INSERT DATA { GRAPH <g> {} } ... ←
18:08:46 <AlexHall> ... if SPARQL stores are more than just dataset definitions then they need extra stuff to support that.
... if SPARQL stores are more than just dataset definitions then they need extra stuff to support that. ←
18:09:18 <AlexHall> davidwood: looking at SPARQL update example here, data is going into a graph identified by a URI
David Wood: looking at SPARQL update example here, data is going into a graph identified by a URI ←
18:09:52 <AlexHall> ... 6 months ago, there was disagreement on this issue: what is being identified by this URI?
... 6 months ago, there was disagreement on this issue: what is being identified by this URI? ←
18:10:12 <AlexHall> ... if we choose to align with SPARQL, then we're saying that this URI identifies a g-box
... if we choose to align with SPARQL, then we're saying that this URI identifies a g-box ←
18:10:17 <cygri> -1
Richard Cyganiak: -1 ←
18:10:24 <PatHayes> i think we have already decided that we are NOT doing this.
Patrick Hayes: i think we have already decided that we are NOT doing this. ←
18:10:39 <cygri> q+ to ask what david means by âidentifyâ
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to ask what david means by âidentifyâ ←
18:10:40 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: Does anyone object to identifying a g-box with a URI, aligning with SPARQL 1.1 " INSERT DATA { GRAPH <g> {} } "
STRAWPOLL: Does anyone object to identifying a g-box with a URI, aligning with SPARQL 1.1 " INSERT DATA { GRAPH <g> {} } " ←
18:11:31 <iand1> of course you can identify a g-box with a URI, but you don't have to
Ian Davis: of course you can identify a g-box with a URI, but you don't have to ←
18:11:42 <AlexHall> pat: IRI is associated with graph, but doesn't denote it
Patrick Hayes: IRI is associated with graph, but doesn't denote it ←
18:11:48 <sandro> cf the resolution from 2011-04-14 --- the url CAN denote the g-snap.
Sandro Hawke: cf the resolution from 2011-04-14 --- the url CAN denote the g-snap. ←
18:11:52 <AlexHall> sandro: but the IRI can denote the g-box
Sandro Hawke: but the IRI can denote the g-box ←
18:11:52 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
18:11:52 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask what david means by âidentifyâ
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to ask what david means by âidentifyâ ←
18:11:53 <sandro> CANT
Sandro Hawke: CANT ←
18:12:10 <AndyS> ptr to resolution?
Andy Seaborne: ptr to resolution? ←
18:13:06 <cygri> quoting SPARQL Update: âA Graph Store is a mutable container of RDF graphs managed by a single service. Similar to an http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#sparqlDataset operated on by the http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/, a Graph Store contains one (unnamed) slot holding a default graph and zero or more named slots holding named graphs. Operations may specify graphs to work with, or they may rely on a default graph for that operation.â
Richard Cyganiak: quoting SPARQL Update: âA Graph Store is a mutable container of RDF graphs managed by a single service. Similar to an http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#sparqlDataset operated on by the http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/, a Graph Store contains one (unnamed) slot holding a default graph and zero or more named slots holding named graphs. Operations may specify graphs to work with, or they may rely on a default graph for that operation.â ←
18:13:09 <sandro> AndyS: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-04-14#resolution_1
Sandro Hawke: AndyS, http,//www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-04-14#resolution_1 ←
18:13:16 <AndyS> sandro, thx
Andy Seaborne: sandro, thx ←
18:13:18 <swh> I don't think SPARQL GRAPH uris identify anything in particular
Steve Harris: I don't think SPARQL GRAPH uris identify anything in particular ←
18:13:20 <sandro> s/:/,/
18:13:25 <AlexHall> davidwood: when you give a server a URI instructing where to put some data, how can that URI not identify the g-box?
David Wood: when you give a server a URI instructing where to put some data, how can that URI not identify the g-box? ←
18:13:28 <pchampin> @swh me neither
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @swh me neither ←
18:13:57 <AlexHall> sandro: in SPARQL as deployed, they aren't used (consistently) to denote anything
Sandro Hawke: in SPARQL as deployed, they aren't used (consistently) to denote anything ←
18:13:59 <pfps> +1 to Sandro :-0
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to Sandro :-0 ←
18:14:13 <AndyS> (That resolution was about datasets not graph stores.)
Andy Seaborne: (That resolution was about datasets not graph stores.) ←
18:14:17 <AlexHall> ... used to denote different things in different datasets
... used to denote different things in different datasets ←
18:14:55 <iand1> what does "zero or more named slots holding named graphs" mean? is that 2 names, one for the slot, one for the graph?
Ian Davis: what does "zero or more named slots holding named graphs" mean? is that 2 names, one for the slot, one for the graph? ←
18:15:16 <AlexHall> ericP: we could say that SPARQL has never operated on g-boxes, only g-snaps
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we could say that SPARQL has never operated on g-boxes, only g-snaps ←
18:15:34 <danbri> i can't understand 'sparql operating over' here; it's more about how the system is managed
Dan Brickley: i can't understand 'sparql operating over' here; it's more about how the system is managed ←
18:15:43 <danbri> and db admins don't exist in the formal Semantics
Dan Brickley: and db admins don't exist in the formal Semantics ←
18:15:45 <AlexHall> davidwood: SPARQL might operate on g-boxes, but from the perspective of a user it's a g-snap for any given query.
David Wood: SPARQL might operate on g-boxes, but from the perspective of a user it's a g-snap for any given query. ←
18:15:46 <danbri> (yet)
Dan Brickley: (yet) ←
18:15:47 <sandro> iand1, no, it's one name.
Sandro Hawke: iand1, no, it's one name. ←
18:15:55 <yvesr> not when you update...
Yves Raimond: not when you update... ←
18:16:01 <tlebo> INSERT DATA { GRAPH #<g> {} } :-)
Tim Lebo: INSERT DATA { GRAPH #<g> {} } :-) ←
18:16:29 <zwu2> +1 to tlebo
18:16:42 <cygri> cambridge, slow down please
Richard Cyganiak: cambridge, slow down please ←
18:17:05 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
18:18:19 <iand> sparql 1.1 query doesn't import the definition of graph from RDF Concepts. Doesn't seem to define it at all. http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#docTerminology
Ian Davis: sparql 1.1 query doesn't import the definition of graph from RDF Concepts. Doesn't seem to define it at all. http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#docTerminology ←
18:19:05 <AlexHall> ericP: meta-discussion about not allowing ourselves to be constrained by what SPARQL is doing right now.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: meta-discussion about not allowing ourselves to be constrained by what SPARQL is doing right now. ←
18:19:21 <pchampin> q+ to suggest that SPARQL 1.1 *has* URI for g-boxes... somewhere
Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to suggest that SPARQL 1.1 *has* URI for g-boxes... somewhere ←
18:19:22 <sandro> eric: so far, maybe, SPARQL is against only g-snaps?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: so far, maybe, SPARQL is against only g-snaps? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:19:23 <yvesr> iand, interesting - it dives directly in 'graph patterns'
Yves Raimond: iand, interesting - it dives directly in 'graph patterns' ←
18:19:30 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
18:19:35 <gavinc> INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} ... takes the gsnap in the <iri> gbox adds <s> <p> <o> to the set to create a new gsnap that is placed into the gbox <iri> ?
Gavin Carothers: INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} ... takes the gsnap in the <iri> gbox adds <s> <p> <o> to the set to create a new gsnap that is placed into the gbox <iri> ? ←
18:19:37 <AlexHall> souri: if you're doing an update, it has to be a g-box.
Souripriya Das: if you're doing an update, it has to be a g-box. ←
18:20:01 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
18:20:01 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to suggest that SPARQL 1.1 *has* URI for g-boxes... somewhere
Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to suggest that SPARQL 1.1 *has* URI for g-boxes... somewhere ←
18:20:01 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
18:20:07 <pchampin> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/#indirect-graph-identification
Pierre-Antoine Champin: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/#indirect-graph-identification ←
18:20:08 <gavinc> q+ to add question already in irc
Gavin Carothers: q+ to add question already in irc ←
18:20:43 <AlexHall> pchampin: thinking about section from SPARQL 1.1 that comes close to assigning URIs for graph containers
Pierre-Antoine Champin: thinking about section from SPARQL 1.1 that comes close to assigning URIs for graph containers ←
18:21:15 <AlexHall> ... indirect identification by building a graph URI from the service URI and the graph URI
... indirect identification by building a graph URI from the service URI and the graph URI ←
18:21:23 <AndyS> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
18:21:36 <sandro> Ahhhhh. I forgot/missed that.
Sandro Hawke: Ahhhhh. I forgot/missed that. ←
18:22:41 <AlexHall> sandro: this torpedoes my claim that you have to use 2 URIs to denote a g-box in SPARQL.
Sandro Hawke: this torpedoes my claim that you have to use 2 URIs to denote a g-box in SPARQL. ←
18:23:00 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
18:23:39 <tlebo> service description document http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-service-description/ ?
Tim Lebo: service description document http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-service-description/ ? ←
18:24:02 <AlexHall> andy: you don't get something back from a dataset, a dataset is a set of graphs some of which with URIs associated
Andy Seaborne: you don't get something back from a dataset, a dataset is a set of graphs some of which with URIs associated ←
18:24:12 <AlexHall> ... a graph store is a different aspect
... a graph store is a different aspect ←
18:24:52 <AlexHall> ... SPARQL 1.0, a dataset is a set of graph and named graphs that is what the query runs over
... SPARQL 1.0, a dataset is a set of graph and named graphs that is what the query runs over ←
18:25:14 <AlexHall> ... then you have FROM/FROM NAMED which describes how to build the dataset from g-boxes/g-snaps
... then you have FROM/FROM NAMED which describes how to build the dataset from g-boxes/g-snaps ←
18:25:32 <pchampin> and dereference
Pierre-Antoine Champin: and dereferencing ←
18:25:40 <pchampin> s/dereference/dereferencing/
18:25:50 <AlexHall> ... then SPARQL 1.1 adds the notion of graph store, which is a collection of slots for graphs that can change over time
... then SPARQL 1.1 adds the notion of graph store, which is a collection of slots for graphs that can change over time ←
18:26:16 <sandro> PROPOSED: SPARQL11-http-rdf-update URLs like /rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph denote graph containers (gboxes). The embedded URI *might* also denote that same container, for some dataset arrangement patterns.
PROPOSED: SPARQL11-http-rdf-update URLs like /rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph denote graph containers (gboxes). The embedded URI *might* also denote that same container, for some dataset arrangement patterns. ←
18:26:31 <AlexHall> davidwood: is it your opinion that we can map the terms from SPARQL to our g-* terms (with an additional term to describe a collection of g-boxes)?
David Wood: is it your opinion that we can map the terms from SPARQL to our g-* terms (with an additional term to describe a collection of g-boxes)? ←
18:27:04 <AlexHall> andy: yes, but it doesn't take into account stuff around graph literals
Andy Seaborne: yes, but it doesn't take into account stuff around graph literals ←
18:27:36 <gavinc> INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} ... takes the gsnap in the <iri> gbox adds <s> <p> <o> to the set to create a new gsnap that is placed into the gbox <iri>. This creates a new Dataset as well. ?
Gavin Carothers: INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} ... takes the gsnap in the <iri> gbox adds <s> <p> <o> to the set to create a new gsnap that is placed into the gbox <iri>. This creates a new Dataset as well. ? ←
18:27:42 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
18:27:42 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to add question already in irc
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to add question already in irc ←
18:28:17 <AlexHall> gavinc: given the original insert data statement, is what i wrote in IRC true?
Gavin Carothers: given the original insert data statement, is what i wrote in IRC true? ←
18:28:49 <yvesr> no
Yves Raimond: no ←
18:28:49 <PatHayes> i vote for it.
Patrick Hayes: i vote for it. ←
18:28:53 <tlebo> +1 to @gavinc's INSERT
Tim Lebo: +1 to @gavinc's INSERT ←
18:28:57 <PatHayes> :-(
Patrick Hayes: :-( ←
18:29:02 <sandro> +1 to gavin's explanation
Sandro Hawke: +1 to gavin's explanation ←
18:29:07 <pchampin> ok if "<iri> gbox" means "the gbox labeled with <iri>"
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ok if "<iri> gbox" means "the gbox labeled with <iri>" ←
18:29:22 <sandro> yes, pchampin
Sandro Hawke: yes, pchampin ←
18:29:30 <PatHayes> yves, what was wrong with it?
Patrick Hayes: yves, what was wrong with it? ←
18:29:37 <AndyS> Yes.
Andy Seaborne: Yes. ←
18:29:44 <ivan> what does 'label' mean? More exactly, what doesn't it mean?
Ivan Herman: what does 'label' mean? More exactly, what doesn't it mean? ←
18:29:53 <sandro> "paired"
Sandro Hawke: "paired" ←
18:29:57 <tlebo> [] sd:name <iri> .
Tim Lebo: [] sd:name <iri> . ←
18:29:57 <PatHayes> "identify" has huge tag-baggage.
Patrick Hayes: "identify" has huge tag-baggage. ←
18:30:00 <sandro> (I think that matches the spec)
Sandro Hawke: (I think that matches the spec) ←
18:30:10 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
18:30:15 <tlebo> (http://prefix.cc/sd)
Tim Lebo: (http://prefix.cc/sd) ←
18:30:25 <AlexHall> yves: find it counter-intuitive, think it will be horribly confusing to somebody reading the spec for the first time.
Yves Raimond: find it counter-intuitive, think it will be horribly confusing to somebody reading the spec for the first time. ←
18:30:29 <swh> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
18:30:58 <sandro> q+ to strawpoll
Sandro Hawke: q+ to strawpoll ←
18:31:02 <tlebo> [] sd:name gavinc:iri; a rdf2:GraphContainer .
Tim Lebo: [] sd:name gavinc:iri; a rdf2:GraphContainer . ←
18:31:10 <PatHayes> im having a hard time thinking what else it can possibly mean.
Patrick Hayes: im having a hard time thinking what else it can possibly mean. ←
18:32:00 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
18:32:17 <yvesr> ack swh
Yves Raimond: ack swh ←
18:32:20 <davidwood> q+ to ask gavinc about "add to a set"
David Wood: q+ to ask gavinc about "add to a set" ←
18:32:45 <AlexHall> swh: for gavinc, the thing that's wrong is that insert doesn't work over datasets, it works over graph stores. datasets are immutable.
Steve Harris: for gavinc, the thing that's wrong is that insert doesn't work over datasets, it works over graph stores. datasets are immutable. ←
18:32:51 <AlexHall> q+
q+ ←
18:33:09 <gavinc> A Graph Store is paired with a Dataset that that is made up of the ??? of gboxes that contain the gsnaps that make up the Dataset
Gavin Carothers: A Graph Store is paired with a Dataset that that is made up of the ??? of gboxes that contain the gsnaps that make up the Dataset ←
18:33:14 <gavinc> It may be more readable backwards
Gavin Carothers: It may be more readable backwards ←
18:33:21 <iand> INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} means take the gsnap that is the current state of the gbox <iri>, perform an RDF-Merge with <s> <p> <o> to form a new gsnap and make that the current state of <iri>
Ian Davis: INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} means take the gsnap that is the current state of the gbox <iri>, perform an RDF-Merge with <s> <p> <o> to form a new gsnap and make that the current state of <iri> ←
18:33:52 <AlexHall> davidwood: sparql also has delete, but you can't delete from a set can you?
David Wood: sparql also has delete, but you can't delete from a set can you? ←
18:34:05 <pfps> you can add triples to a set, just like you can add 1 to a number, you just get a *different* set
Peter Patel-Schneider: you can add triples to a set, just like you can add 1 to a number, you just get a *different* set ←
18:34:19 <yvesr> ok, so do we need the equivalent of the gbox/gsnap terminology for dataset?
Yves Raimond: ok, so do we need the equivalent of the gbox/gsnap terminology for dataset? ←
18:34:25 <yvesr> dbox/dsnap?
Yves Raimond: dbox/dsnap? ←
18:34:31 <gavinc> PatH, yes. A graph store can have a NEW gbox added
Gavin Carothers: PatH, yes. A graph store can have a NEW gbox added ←
18:34:41 <PatHayes> tnx.
Patrick Hayes: tnx. ←
18:34:52 <pfps> we need to be careful to distinguish between side-effecting operations and functional operations
Peter Patel-Schneider: we need to be careful to distinguish between side-effecting operations and functional operations ←
18:35:13 <AndyS> q+ to book a slot on the Q [point to follow]
Andy Seaborne: q+ to book a slot on the Q [point to follow] ←
18:35:26 <davidwood> q-
David Wood: q- ←
18:36:12 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
18:36:12 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to strawpoll
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to strawpoll ←
18:36:14 <PatHayes> I once had lunch with Peter Landin.
Patrick Hayes: I once had lunch with Peter Landin. ←
18:36:20 <tlebo> +1 @iand's rephrasing of @gavinc's INSERT interpretation
Tim Lebo: +1 @iand's rephrasing of @gavinc's INSERT interpretation ←
18:36:33 <AlexHall> sandro: do we want to cement this down any more?
Sandro Hawke: do we want to cement this down any more? ←
18:36:43 <AlexHall> zhe: depends on how you describe the <IRI,graph> pairing
Zhe Wu: depends on how you describe the <IRI,graph> pairing ←
18:36:45 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: SPARQL11-http-rdf-update URLs like /rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph denote graph containers (gboxes). The embedded URI *might* also denote that same container, for some dataset arrangement patterns.
STRAWPOLL: SPARQL11-http-rdf-update URLs like /rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph denote graph containers (gboxes). The embedded URI *might* also denote that same container, for some dataset arrangement patterns. ←
18:37:01 <cygri> ±1
Richard Cyganiak: ±1 ←
18:37:06 <mischat> like how a g-box of triples can at time T is a g-snap. A graphstore of quads at time T is a dataset
Mischa Tuffield: like how a g-box of triples can at time T is a g-snap. A graphstore of quads at time T is a dataset ←
18:37:17 <cygri> +1 actually
Richard Cyganiak: +1 actually ←
18:37:18 <LeeF_> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
18:37:30 <swh> I have no idea what that means
Steve Harris: I have no idea what that means ←
18:37:31 <tlebo> @iand's interpretation: This is in line with PROV-WG's immutable prov:Entity prov:derivedFrom (a distinct) prov:Entity .
Tim Lebo: @iand's interpretation: This is in line with PROV-WG's immutable prov:Entity prov:derivedFrom (a distinct) prov:Entity . ←
18:37:52 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
18:38:13 <PatHayes> +0
Patrick Hayes: +0 ←
18:38:15 <AlexHall> sandro: some people use datasets in such a way that the embedded graph tag will denote the gbox.
Sandro Hawke: some people use datasets in such a way that the embedded graph tag will denote the gbox. ←
18:38:31 <AlexHall> davidwood: can you please define denote for us?
David Wood: can you please define denote for us? ←
18:39:05 <tlebo> "identifying" is how HTTP dereferencing works; "denotes" is how RDF works.
Tim Lebo: "identifying" is how HTTP dereferencing works; "denotes" is how RDF works. ←
18:39:13 <tlebo> so says @PatHayes
Tim Lebo: so says @PatHayes ←
18:39:16 <davidwood> denotes -> "is a way of referring to". There may be other ways.
David Wood: denotes -> "is a way of referring to". There may be other ways. ←
18:39:16 <zwu2> +0
18:39:17 <PatHayes> well, its any naming.
Patrick Hayes: well, its any naming. ←
18:39:58 <sandro> pat: it was the TAG that made that distinction, between "identify" and naming (in the general sense, which is how we use it).
Patrick Hayes: it was the TAG that made that distinction, between "identify" and naming (in the general sense, which is how we use it). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:40:19 <Souri> what are we saying +1, -1, +0, -0 to? (I was disconnected for last few minutes)
Souripriya Das: what are we saying +1, -1, +0, -0 to? (I was disconnected for last few minutes) ←
18:40:24 <tlebo> PatHayes: things apply to identifying that DO NOT apply to "denotes" - because it lets you access it.
Patrick Hayes: things apply to identifying that DO NOT apply to "denotes" - because it lets you access it. [ Scribe Assist by Tim Lebo ] ←
18:40:37 <Guus> smaal reformuulation: "INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} means take the gsnap that is the current state of the gbox <iri>, perform an RDF-Merge with <s> <p> <o> and make that the current contents of <iri>"
Guus Schreiber: smaal reformuulation: "INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} means take the gsnap that is the current state of the gbox <iri>, perform an RDF-Merge with <s> <p> <o> and make that the current contents of <iri>" ←
18:40:50 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: SPARQL11-http-rdf-update URLs like /rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph denote graph containers (gboxes). The embedded URI *might* also denote that same container, the way some people use datasets.
STRAWPOLL: SPARQL11-http-rdf-update URLs like /rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph denote graph containers (gboxes). The embedded URI *might* also denote that same container, the way some people use datasets. ←
18:41:04 <PatHayes> pfps, you might be right.
Patrick Hayes: pfps, you might be right. ←
18:41:28 <tlebo> it's not the same container!
Tim Lebo: it's not the same container! ←
18:42:08 <yvesr> 'might' and 'some' in a strawpoll confuses me :/
Yves Raimond: 'might' and 'some' in a strawpoll confuses me :/ ←
18:42:20 <iand> INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} implies <iri> rdf:type :gbox
Ian Davis: INSERT DATA { GRAPH <iri> { <s> <p> <o> }} implies <iri> rdf:type :gbox ←
18:42:32 <cygri> iand, no
Richard Cyganiak: iand, no ←
18:42:35 <PatHayes> <iri> := merge( <iri>, {s p o} )
Patrick Hayes: <iri> := merge( <iri>, {s p o} ) ←
18:42:43 <pfps> implies in what entailment regime?
Peter Patel-Schneider: implies in what entailment regime? ←
18:42:46 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
18:42:53 <AlexHall> sandro: i think most of the confusion here is the connection between IRI and gbox
Sandro Hawke: i think most of the confusion here is the connection between IRI and gbox ←
18:42:54 <cygri> it's both a wave and a particle
Richard Cyganiak: it's both a wave and a particle ←
18:42:55 <davidwood> iand: We aren't ready to make a statement that <iri> identifies the gbox...
Ian Davis: We aren't ready to make a statement that <iri> identifies the gbox... [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
18:42:55 <iand> pfps: in english
Peter Patel-Schneider: in english [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
18:43:07 <iand> davidwood: i didn't say identifies
David Wood: i didn't say identifies [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ] ←
18:43:13 <davidwood> ack AlexHall
David Wood: ack AlexHall ←
18:43:15 <yvesr> cygri, but is it dead or alive?
Yves Raimond: cygri, but is it dead or alive? ←
18:43:24 <PatHayes> en-tag
Patrick Hayes: en-tag ←
18:43:31 <cygri> yvesr, you won't know before you open the g-box
Richard Cyganiak: yvesr, you won't know before you open the g-box ←
18:43:36 <sandro> Note that I'm NOT saying the IRI denotes the g-box, but the QUALIFIED one does as per http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/#indirect-graph-identification
Sandro Hawke: Note that I'm NOT saying the IRI denotes the g-box, but the QUALIFIED one does as per http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/#indirect-graph-identification ←
18:43:36 <davidwood> iand, no, you said rdf:type
David Wood: iand, no, you said rdf:type ←
18:43:41 <ericP> AlexHall: re: the relationship between the graph store and dataset
Alex Hall: re: the relationship between the graph store and dataset [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
18:43:59 <ericP> ... the dsnap is the immutable collection of graphs states taken from the graph store
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the dsnap is the immutable collection of graphs states taken from the graph store ←
18:44:20 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
18:44:31 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
18:44:31 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to book a slot on the Q [point to follow]
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to book a slot on the Q [point to follow] ←
18:44:38 <ericP> q+ to ask if this strawpoll is intended to describe a new best practice
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask if this strawpoll is intended to describe a new best practice ←
18:44:50 <davidwood> ack ericP
David Wood: ack ericP ←
18:44:50 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if this strawpoll is intended to describe a new best practice
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask if this strawpoll is intended to describe a new best practice ←
18:44:50 <tlebo> <http://www.example.com/other/graph> ! sameAs <.../rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph> (but are both rdf2:GraphContainers). However, both have some common skos:broader...
Tim Lebo: <http://www.example.com/other/graph> ! sameAs <.../rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph> (but are both rdf2:GraphContainers). However, both have some common skos:broader... ←
18:45:26 <AlexHall> ericP: is the goal of this strawpoll to provide guidance for how people might manage their g-snaps and the g-boxes they stole them from?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: is the goal of this strawpoll to provide guidance for how people might manage their g-snaps and the g-boxes they stole them from? ←
18:45:44 <AlexHall> ... is it meant to provide guidance? describe best practice? document the only way we can do this?
... is it meant to provide guidance? describe best practice? document the only way we can do this? ←
18:46:03 <AlexHall> sandro: i think this is the only way to do this that makes sense.
Sandro Hawke: i think this is the only way to do this that makes sense. ←
18:46:31 <AlexHall> ericP: how can i evaluate this? is there a test case I can throw at it?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: how can i evaluate this? is there a test case I can throw at it? ←
18:46:48 <AlexHall> sandro: use it in some RDF
Sandro Hawke: use it in some RDF ←
18:46:53 <sandro> <http://exaemple.com/rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph> dc:author sandro:me
Sandro Hawke: <http://exaemple.com/rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph> dc:author sandro:me ←
18:47:11 <sandro> <http://exaemple.com/rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph> rdf:type r:GraphContainer
Sandro Hawke: <http://exaemple.com/rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph> rdf:type r:GraphContainer ←
18:47:31 <AlexHall> davidwood: we need to adjourn soon
David Wood: we need to adjourn soon ←
18:47:59 <AlexHall> ericP: don't think we can answer this tonight. perhaps we should write some coherent test cases first.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: don't think we can answer this tonight. perhaps we should write some coherent test cases first. ←
18:48:07 <tlebo> TRUE: /rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph a rdf2:GraphContainer; skos:broader ?x . <http://www.example.com/other/graph> a rdf2:GraphContainer; skos:broader ?x .
Tim Lebo: TRUE: /rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph a rdf2:GraphContainer; skos:broader ?x . <http://www.example.com/other/graph> a rdf2:GraphContainer; skos:broader ?x . ←
18:48:28 <AlexHall> davidwood: this example rdf is describing the gbox?
David Wood: this example rdf is describing the gbox? ←
18:48:28 <PatHayes> sandro, this illustrates for me exactly the problem. you are the author of the box.
Patrick Hayes: sandro, this illustrates for me exactly the problem. you are the author of the box. ←
18:48:32 <AlexHall> sandro: yes
Sandro Hawke: yes ←
18:48:48 <Guus> q+ to ask Steve/Andy about synching RDF dataset def in SPARQL doc
Guus Schreiber: q+ to ask Steve/Andy about synching RDF dataset def in SPARQL doc ←
18:48:59 <tlebo> these GraphContainers are frbr:Items :-)
Tim Lebo: these GraphContainers are frbr:Items :-) ←
18:49:05 <AlexHall> ???: what is being described, the box or the graph in the box?
???: what is being described, the box or the graph in the box? ←
18:49:24 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
18:49:42 <AlexHall> sandro: normally dc:author is applied to web pages, and web pages are boxes too. when we say somebody is the author of the webpage, we generally mean they are the author of the latest version.
Sandro Hawke: normally dc:author is applied to web pages, and web pages are boxes too. when we say somebody is the author of the webpage, we generally mean they are the author of the latest version. ←
18:49:42 <davidwood> ack Guus
David Wood: ack Guus ←
18:49:42 <Zakim> Guus, you wanted to ask Steve/Andy about synching RDF dataset def in SPARQL doc
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus, you wanted to ask Steve/Andy about synching RDF dataset def in SPARQL doc ←
18:49:53 <sandro> <http://exaemple.com/rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph> eg:refreshRate 3.
Sandro Hawke: <http://exaemple.com/rdf-graphs/service?graph=http%3A//www.example.com/other/graph> eg:refreshRate 3. ←
18:50:03 <AlexHall> ... in this context, might mean that sandro:me is the author is the latest gsnap in the box
... in this context, might mean that sandro:me is the author is the latest gsnap in the box ←
18:50:30 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
18:52:19 <AlexHall> guus: can we try re-formulating the definition of SPARQL dataset in terms of the RDF dataset terms?
Guus Schreiber: can we try re-formulating the definition of SPARQL dataset in terms of the RDF dataset terms? ←
18:52:30 <AlexHall> davidwood: agenda-bashing time
David Wood: agenda-bashing time ←
18:52:44 <PatHayes> i wont be able to be there tomorrow, so y'all might get things done a bit faster :-)
Patrick Hayes: i wont be able to be there tomorrow, so y'all might get things done a bit faster :-) ←
18:52:56 <AlexHall> ... revisit latest formulation of gavin's description of INSERT DATA, can possibly shake out some strawpolls
... revisit latest formulation of gavin's description of INSERT DATA, can possibly shake out some strawpolls ←
18:53:41 <AndyS> It is possible to improve - (carefully - safe against later RDF-WG decisions)
Andy Seaborne: It is possible to improve - (carefully - safe against later RDF-WG decisions) ←
18:53:44 <AlexHall> ... as well as sandro's g-box IRI strawpoll
... as well as sandro's g-box IRI strawpoll ←
18:54:05 <AlexHall> ... propose to add these items to tomorrow's agenda
... propose to add these items to tomorrow's agenda ←
18:54:38 <AlexHall> guus: really want to visit the wikidata use case
Guus Schreiber: really want to visit the wikidata use case ←
18:55:18 <AlexHall> sandro: time to assign some homework
Sandro Hawke: time to assign some homework ←
18:55:43 <ivan> ISSUE-33?
18:55:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-33 -- Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? -- open ←
18:55:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33 ←
18:55:44 <AlexHall> ... look over the issue list for ones you care about or think are obsolete
... look over the issue list for ones you care about or think are obsolete ←
18:56:04 <AlexHall> davidwood: would like to revisit issue-33
David Wood: would like to revisit ISSUE-33 ←
18:56:15 <tlebo> @sandro - we can apply "mangling service endpoint and GRAPH <IRI> to name the g-box" to TRiG by replacing "service endpoint" with a sufficient "location" of the TRiG file. (because sparql endpoint and TRiG file are two of a more general notion)
Tim Lebo: @sandro - we can apply "mangling service endpoint and GRAPH <IRI> to name the g-box" to TRiG by replacing "service endpoint" with a sufficient "location" of the TRiG file. (because sparql endpoint and TRiG file are two of a more general notion) ←
18:56:56 <tlebo> BIG elephant: putting semantics in to name of a named graph or not
Tim Lebo: BIG elephant: putting semantics in to name of a named graph or not ←
18:57:04 <AlexHall> guus: still no answer to the issue of whether to put semantics into the relationship between the name and the graph
Guus Schreiber: still no answer to the issue of whether to put semantics into the relationship between the name and the graph ←
18:57:29 <AlexHall> sandro: my strawpoll is trying to narrow down that space
Sandro Hawke: my strawpoll is trying to narrow down that space ←
18:58:52 <AlexHall> ... clear that we can't have consensus that the IRI denotes the gbox because it will break too much deployed stuff
... clear that we can't have consensus that the IRI denotes the gbox because it will break too much deployed stuff ←
18:59:40 <AlexHall> davidwood: adjourned
David Wood: adjourned ←
18:59:51 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
18:59:55 <sandro> PROPOSED: While it's desirable to have dataset tag IRIs denote their associated g-boxes, because of existing deployments we can't just rule that now. Instead, we can provide some way to flag the cases where it does, so the market can move in that direction.
PROPOSED: While it's desirable to have dataset tag IRIs denote their associated g-boxes, because of existing deployments we can't just rule that now. Instead, we can provide some way to flag the cases where it does, so the market can move in that direction. ←
19:00:00 <sandro> (for tomrrow.)
Sandro Hawke: (for tomrrow.) ←
19:00:00 <Zakim> -MIT_Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: -MIT_Meeting_Room ←
19:00:58 <sandro> PROPOSED: While it's desirable to have dataset tag IRIs denote their associated g-boxes, because of existing deployments we can't just rule that now. In particular, in different datasets, the relation is different. Instead, we can provide some way to flag the cases where it does, so the market can move in that direction.
PROPOSED: While it's desirable to have dataset tag IRIs denote their associated g-boxes, because of existing deployments we can't just rule that now. In particular, in different datasets, the relation is different. Instead, we can provide some way to flag the cases where it does, so the market can move in that direction. ←
19:01:22 <sandro> PatHayes, can you formally define g-box for us?
Sandro Hawke: PatHayes, can you formally define g-box for us? ←
19:08:09 <sandro> a g-box, named with zero or more IRIs, is a function (mapping) from time to g-snaps.
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Sandro Hawke: a g-box, named with zero or more IRIs, is a function (mapping) from time to g-snaps. ←
19:09:53 <LeeF_> a g-box is a function from the current environment to a g-snap
Lee Feigenbaum: a g-box is a function from the current environment to a g-snap ←
19:09:57 <LeeF_> that function can be named with an IRI
Lee Feigenbaum: that function can be named with an IRI ←
19:12:53 <sandro> gavin: what about localhost:
Gavin Carothers: what about localhost: [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:13:15 <sandro> david: We should say what people do on the open web, and if people want to break things on their own machine, that's their problem.
David Wood: We should say what people do on the open web, and if people want to break things on their own machine, that's their problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:14:13 <sandro> david: people are free to make stupid mistakes; it's just less useful when they do...
David Wood: people are free to make stupid mistakes; it's just less useful when they do... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:31:57 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
(No events recorded for 17 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
22:05:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, BBC_Meeting_Room, in SW_RDFWG(F2F)6:00AM
(No events recorded for 153 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, BBC_Meeting_Room, in SW_RDFWG(F2F)6:00AM ←
22:05:03 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG(F2F)6:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG(F2F)6:00AM has ended ←
22:05:07 <Zakim> Attendees were AZ, +1.617.324.aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ww, mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys, NickH, davidwood, gavinc, zwu2, tlebo,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were AZ, +1.617.324.aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ww, mischat, Guus, danbri, yvesr, pchampin, swh, ivan, cygri, iand, andys, NickH, davidwood, gavinc, zwu2, tlebo, ←
22:05:10 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, sandro, Souri, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, Thomas, PatH, Eric, MIT_Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: ... AlexHall, sandro, Souri, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, Thomas, PatH, Eric, MIT_Meeting_Room ←
Formatted by CommonScribe