14:56:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/14-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/14-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:56:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:56:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
14:56:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes ←
14:57:00 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:57:00 <trackbot> Date: 14 September 2011
14:58:18 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started ←
14:58:25 <Zakim> + +1.650.917.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.917.aaaa ←
14:58:36 <gavinc> zakim, aaaa is me
Gavin Carothers: zakim, aaaa is me ←
14:58:36 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it ←
14:58:54 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus_Schreiber ←
14:59:28 <Zakim> +Tony
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony ←
14:59:40 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is me ←
14:59:41 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it ←
15:00:23 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:00:23 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 ←
15:00:58 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
15:01:01 <Zakim> +??P36
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36 ←
15:01:07 <AndyS> zakim, ??P36 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P36 is me ←
15:01:07 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:01:10 <NickH> Zakim, ??P27 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P27 is me ←
15:01:10 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:01:11 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
15:01:18 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
15:01:35 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
15:01:35 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:01:42 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
15:02:06 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb ←
15:02:10 <ww> Zakim, aabb is me
William Waites: Zakim, aabb is me ←
15:02:11 <Zakim> +??P38
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38 ←
15:02:17 <ww> nono
William Waites: nono ←
15:02:22 <Zakim> +ww; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it ←
15:02:24 <ww> Zakim, ??P38 is me
William Waites: Zakim, ??P38 is me ←
15:02:29 <NickH> zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, mute me ←
15:02:36 <Zakim> +ww; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it ←
15:02:42 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
15:02:48 <ww> Zakim, mute me
William Waites: Zakim, mute me ←
15:02:56 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
15:03:19 <AlexHall> zakim, who is on the phone?
Alex Hall: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, NickH (muted), AndyS, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, ww (muted), ww.a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, NickH (muted), AndyS, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, ww (muted), ww.a ←
15:03:41 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:03:49 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:03:49 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:03:51 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:03:51 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:04:02 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:04:02 <AlexHall> one of the ww's is me, how do i fix it?
Alex Hall: one of the ww's is me, how do i fix it? ←
15:04:56 <zwu2> Scribe: zwu2
(Scribe set to Zhe Wu)
15:05:23 <ww> AlexHall: sorry about that
Alex Hall: sorry about that [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ] ←
15:05:33 <ww> Zakim, aabb is AlexHall
William Waites: Zakim, aabb is AlexHall ←
15:05:41 <Zakim> sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' ←
15:05:49 <ww> zakim, ww.a is AlexHall
William Waites: zakim, ww.a is AlexHall ←
15:05:49 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it ←
15:05:57 <ww> zakim, who is on the call?
William Waites: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:05:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, NickH (muted), AndyS, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, ww (muted), AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, NickH (muted), AndyS, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, ww (muted), AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Sandro ←
15:06:30 <zwu2> topic: introductions
15:06:32 <AlexHall> thanks, ww
15:06:40 <zwu2> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 7 Sep telecon:
PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 7 Sep telecon: ←
15:07:01 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-office ←
15:07:01 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
15:07:02 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:07:14 <zwu2> RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 7 Sep telecon
RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 7 Sep telecon ←
15:07:19 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
15:07:19 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
15:07:32 <zwu2> topic: action reviews
15:07:59 <zwu2> Guus: David put up F2F agenda
Guus Schreiber: David put up F2F agenda ←
15:08:29 <zwu2> ... draft agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda
... draft agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda ←
15:08:49 <zwu2> ... open actions
... open actions ←
15:09:27 <zwu2> Action-67?
15:09:27 <trackbot> ACTION-67 -- Patrick Hayes to review Pierre-A's comments on SPARQL graph store update protocol -- due 2011-07-06 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-67 -- Patrick Hayes to review Pierre-A's comments on SPARQL graph store update protocol -- due 2011-07-06 -- OPEN ←
15:09:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/67
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/67 ←
15:09:45 <zwu2> action Guus: remind Pat on action-67
action Guus: remind Pat on ACTION-67 ←
15:09:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Remind Pat on action-67 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-87 - Remind Pat on ACTION-67 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21]. ←
15:09:52 <zwu2> action-73?
15:09:52 <trackbot> ACTION-73 -- Fabien Gandon to implement http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-03#resolution_2 -- due 2012-01-05 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-73 -- Fabien Gandon to implement http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-03#resolution_2 -- due 2012-01-05 -- OPEN ←
15:09:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/73
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/73 ←
15:09:57 <zwu2> Guus: leave it open
Guus Schreiber: leave it open ←
15:10:02 <zwu2> action-77?
15:10:02 <trackbot> ACTION-77 -- Richard Cyganiak to add strawman rdf dataset proposal to concepts -- due 2011-08-24 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-77 -- Richard Cyganiak to add strawman rdf dataset proposal to concepts -- due 2011-08-24 -- OPEN ←
15:10:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/77
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/77 ←
15:10:10 <zwu2> ... is Richard in?
... is Richard in? ←
15:10:22 <ivan> I think he is out these days
Ivan Herman: I think he is out these days ←
15:10:30 <zwu2> action-79?
15:10:30 <trackbot> ACTION-79 -- Guus Schreiber to discuss with FabGandon about where to put examples and what to do with primary before F2F -- due 2011-09-29 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-79 -- Guus Schreiber to discuss with FabGandon about where to put examples and what to do with primary before F2F -- due 2011-09-29 -- OPEN ←
15:10:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/79
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/79 ←
15:10:37 <zwu2> ... needs to be continued, for later
... needs to be continued, for later ←
15:10:42 <zwu2> Action-82?
15:10:42 <trackbot> ACTION-82 -- Sandro Hawke to draft well-known URI template and propose WG resolution that it is "stable" enough for IETF. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-82 -- Sandro Hawke to draft well-known URI template and propose WG resolution that it is "stable" enough for IETF. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN ←
15:10:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/82
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/82 ←
15:10:48 <zwu2> ... Sandro, did you make progress
... Sandro, did you make progress ←
15:10:52 <zwu2> sandro: no
Sandro Hawke: no ←
15:11:01 <zwu2> action-86?
15:11:01 <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Sandro Hawke to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-86 -- Sandro Hawke to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN ←
15:11:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/86
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/86 ←
15:11:25 <Zakim> +??P58
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P58 ←
15:11:59 <zwu2> proposed to close action-86
15:12:37 <zwu2> Topic: F2F planning
15:12:51 <zwu2> Guus: wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2
Guus Schreiber: wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2 ←
15:12:59 <zwu2> ... 11 people at BBC,
... 11 people at BBC, ←
15:13:13 <zwu2> ... peter, will you attend?
... peter, will you attend? ←
15:13:25 <zwu2> peter: may not know until Tues morning
Peter Patel-Schneider: may not know until Tues morning ←
15:13:42 <Zakim> + +33.4.77.42.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.4.77.42.aacc ←
15:14:00 <AZ> zakim, +33.4.77.42.aacc is me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, +33.4.77.42.aacc is me ←
15:14:10 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
15:14:38 <zwu2> Guus: draft agenda for two days http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda
Guus Schreiber: draft agenda for two days http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2#Agenda ←
15:14:59 <zwu2> ... we have more time now due to timezone difference
... we have more time now due to timezone difference ←
15:15:14 <zwu2> ... any comments?
... any comments? ←
15:16:25 <zwu2> ... By the time of Boston f2f,
... By the time of Boston f2f, ←
15:16:38 <zwu2> ... we should have some new material
... we should have some new material ←
15:16:59 <zwu2> ... for RDF Primer,
... for RDF Primer, ←
15:17:07 <zwu2> ... unlikely to be complete.
... unlikely to be complete. ←
15:17:18 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me ←
15:17:18 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted ←
15:17:56 <zwu2> ivan: one of the two hotels does not have any more room
Ivan Herman: one of the two hotels does not have any more room ←
15:18:01 <NickH> I will pass on the message to yvesr
Nicholas Humfrey: I will pass on the message to yvesr ←
15:18:54 <zwu2> ... can you send out that hotel info?
... can you send out that hotel info? ←
15:19:32 <mischat> the pound is weak at the moment, people should be "ok"
Mischa Tuffield: the pound is weak at the moment, people should be "ok" ←
15:19:41 <zwu2> action Guus: provide information on london hotel
action Guus: provide information on london hotel ←
15:19:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Provide information on london hotel [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-88 - Provide information on london hotel [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21]. ←
15:20:18 <zwu2> Topic: liaison with Provenance WG
15:20:34 <zwu2> Guus: we will use RDF WG channel
Guus Schreiber: we will use RDF WG channel ←
15:20:52 <zwu2> ... zakim code is RDFG
... zakim code is RDFG ←
15:21:13 <zwu2> ... attendance is in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15
... attendance is in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15 ←
15:21:29 <zwu2> ... not sure who will attend from Provenance WG
... not sure who will attend from Provenance WG ←
15:21:40 <zwu2> ... two main objectives
... two main objectives ←
15:21:47 <zwu2> ... 1. requirement
... 1. requirement ←
15:22:25 <zwu2> ... work out use cases
... work out use cases ←
15:22:56 <zwu2> ... have joint actions to work on the examples (concrete)
... have joint actions to work on the examples (concrete) ←
15:23:40 <AndyS> +1 to concrete examples
Andy Seaborne: +1 to concrete examples ←
15:23:45 <mischat> i thought that the provenance group where going to give us concrete examples?
Mischa Tuffield: i thought that the provenance group where going to give us concrete examples? ←
15:23:52 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
15:23:52 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
15:24:06 <zwu2> topic: RDF Dataset proposal
15:24:24 <zwu2> Guus: richard is essential to this discussion, He is not here
Guus Schreiber: richard is essential to this discussion, He is not here ←
15:24:27 <Zakim> +??P59
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P59 ←
15:24:35 <pchampin> zakim, ??P59 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P59 is me ←
15:24:35 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
15:25:02 <zwu2> ... not sure if we can discuss this item
... not sure if we can discuss this item ←
15:25:25 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me ←
15:25:25 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted ←
15:25:41 <zwu2> ivan: we should not go into discussion
Ivan Herman: we should not go into discussion ←
15:26:19 <zwu2> sandro: the doc does not look much different to me
Sandro Hawke: the doc does not look much different to me ←
15:27:11 <zwu2> sandro: it is not a great proposal
Sandro Hawke: it is not a sufficient proposal ←
15:27:21 <zwu2> ... his design is minimal
... his design is minimal ←
15:27:25 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
15:27:49 <sandro> s/great/sufficient/
15:28:34 <zwu2> sandro: applications need their vocab to do something useful
Sandro Hawke: applications need their vocab to do something useful ←
15:28:59 <zwu2> ... we need to proceed with more use cases
... we need to proceed with more use cases ←
15:29:14 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
15:29:18 <ivan> q-
Ivan Herman: q- ←
15:29:21 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
15:29:43 <zwu2> Topic: language tagged literals
15:30:13 <zwu2> Guus: only two proposals look promising
Guus Schreiber: only two proposals look promising ←
15:30:33 <zwu2> ... 1 or 2d
... 1 or 2d ←
15:31:05 <zwu2> ... either we do nothing, or we go with 2d
... either we do nothing, or we go with 2d ←
15:31:22 <zwu2> ... we don't have to make a final decision today
... we don't have to make a final decision today ←
15:31:32 <zwu2> ... for resolution, we could go for 2d
... for resolution, we could go for 2d ←
15:31:52 <zwu2> ... if we get sufficient push back, then we choose 1 and do nothing
... if we get sufficient push back, then we choose 1 and do nothing ←
15:32:00 <zwu2> sandro: I agree that approach makes sense
Sandro Hawke: I agree that approach makes sense ←
15:32:21 <zwu2> ... doing 2d at provisional at risk
... doing 2d at provisional at risk ←
15:32:26 <ivan> +1 to what to sandro says
Ivan Herman: +1 to what to sandro says ←
15:32:35 <zwu2> ... let community decide if it is desired
... let community decide if it is desired ←
15:32:58 <zwu2> Guus: not sure much is going to change before F2F
Guus Schreiber: not sure much is going to change before F2F ←
15:33:24 <zwu2> ... Pat said he prefers 4
... Pat said he prefers 4 ←
15:34:06 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/tagged_literals/results results of the poll
Ivan Herman: -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/tagged_literals/results results of the poll ←
15:34:08 <zwu2> ... I will write an email to the group
... I will write an email to the group ←
15:34:30 <ivan> For the records, 2d means: "The abstract syntax has a lexical form and language tag (like in RDF 2004). The value is assigned directly (like in RDF 2004), bypassing the datatype. The datatype has an empty lexical space and empty L2V mapping."
Ivan Herman: For the records, 2d means: "The abstract syntax has a lexical form and language tag (like in RDF 2004). The value is assigned directly (like in RDF 2004), bypassing the datatype. The datatype has an empty lexical space and empty L2V mapping." ←
15:35:14 <sandro> Or, more simply -- it's the same as we have now, except instead of an EMPTY datatype for tagged strings, there's a particular value for those strings.
Sandro Hawke: Or, more simply -- it's the same as we have now, except instead of an EMPTY datatype for tagged strings, there's a particular value for those strings. ←
15:35:24 <zwu2> action Guus: email to group stating a possible resolution for tagged literals
action Guus: email to group stating a possible resolution for tagged literals ←
15:35:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Email to group stating a possible resolution for tagged literals [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-89 - Email to group stating a possible resolution for tagged literals [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-21]. ←
15:36:18 <zwu2> Guus: aob?
Guus Schreiber: aob? ←
15:37:32 <zwu2> Topic: telecon adjourned
15:37:37 <ericP> sandro: two axes:
Sandro Hawke: two axes: [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
15:37:44 <ericP> ... current (lex, (datatype | langtag)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... current (lex, (datatype | langtag) ←
15:37:49 <ericP> )
15:38:04 <sandro> Choice One: <lexrep, dt, opt language tag> or just <lexrep, dt>
Sandro Hawke: Choice One: <lexrep, dt, opt language tag> or just <lexrep, dt> ←
15:38:32 <ericP> isn't the current: <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, opt language tag> ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: isn't the current: <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, opt language tag> ? ←
15:39:13 <sandro> Choice Two: smoosh the lang tag into Lexrep (option 4) or into datatype URI (option 3a).
Sandro Hawke: Choice Two: smoosh the lang tag into Lexrep (option 4) or into datatype URI (option 3a). ←
15:39:31 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
15:39:49 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
15:40:09 <gavinc> current <lexrep> | <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, langtag>
Gavin Carothers: current <lexrep> | <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, langtag> ←
15:40:14 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
15:40:38 <gavinc> current, post xsd:string normalization: <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, langtag>
Gavin Carothers: current, post xsd:string normalization: <lexrep, dt> | <lexrep, langtag> ←
15:42:22 <swh> agreed, option 4 is v. bad
Steve Harris: agreed, option 4 is v. bad ←
15:42:25 <ericP> +1 to -1 of smushing into the string
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to -1 of smushing into the string ←
15:42:32 <gavinc> Option 4 is bad
Gavin Carothers: Option 4 is bad ←
15:42:48 <AlexHall> +1 as long as we're talking about the RDF abstract syntax
Alex Hall: +1 as long as we're talking about the RDF abstract syntax ←
15:43:15 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
15:43:19 <AndyS> opt 4 is very very bad AKA it will be ignored - APIs will hide it completely so does not exist
Andy Seaborne: opt 4 is very very bad AKA it will be ignored - APIs will hide it completely so does not exist ←
15:43:22 <gavinc> language tags REQUIRE micro parsing already btw
Gavin Carothers: language tags REQUIRE micro parsing already btw ←
15:43:23 <AndyS> several of us were originally interested but DT-lang but it had problems.
Andy Seaborne: several of us were originally interested but DT-lang but it had problems. ←
15:43:37 <sandro> ivan: my problem with 3 is the vast number of language tag URIs that we'd have. that might cause problems.
Ivan Herman: my problem with 3 is the vast number of language tag URIs that we'd have. that might cause problems. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:44:03 <AndyS> gavinc - not really - can treat (unchecked) as strings.
Andy Seaborne: gavinc - not really - can treat (unchecked) as strings. ←
15:44:27 <gavinc> that's true, okay... langMatches() requires micro parsing
Gavin Carothers: that's true, okay... langMatches() requires micro parsing ←
15:44:28 <AndyS> true if checking -- but can "assume" valid
Andy Seaborne: true if checking -- but can "assume" valid ←
15:44:40 <sandro> ivan: owl2 semantics, generating things like differentFrom for each datatype
Ivan Herman: owl2 semantics, generating things like differentFrom for each datatype [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:44:48 <AndyS> Yes, langMatches is ... interesting.
Andy Seaborne: Yes, langMatches is ... interesting. ←
15:45:59 <gavinc> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647
Gavin Carothers: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647 ←
15:46:36 <sandro> gavin; I don't object to 3a due to microparsing -- since you need to "microparse" language tags anyone.
Sandro Hawke: gavin; I don't object to 3a due to microparsing -- since you need to "microparse" language tags anyone. ←
15:47:08 <pchampin> +1 to Ivan: 3a makes no statements about relations between the language types
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 to Ivan: 3a makes no statements about relations between the language types ←
15:47:39 <sandro> AndyS: the mental framework from datatypes does not apply to the theory of lanuage tags.
Andy Seaborne: the mental framework from datatypes does not apply to the theory of lanuage tags. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:47:55 <pchampin> q+ to ask a question about 3a and datatypes
Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to ask a question about 3a and datatypes ←
15:48:07 <pchampin> ack me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ack me ←
15:48:09 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask a question about 3a and datatypes
Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to ask a question about 3a and datatypes ←
15:48:09 <AndyS> Also JJC email that relationship of DT != lang relationships
Andy Seaborne: Also JJC email that relationship of DT != lang relationships ←
15:48:13 <sandro> (ah, that makes sense, Andy.)
Sandro Hawke: (ah, that makes sense, Andy.) ←
15:48:24 <ericP> we need to A/B test by teaching folks the different models and seeing which they "get" in the sense of having intelligent intuitions
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we need to A/B test by teaching folks the different models and seeing which they "get" in the sense of having intelligent intuitions ←
15:48:43 <Guus> I prefer 2d because it apprears to be the smallest change that does the trick, but maybe someone can convince me this is wrong
Guus Schreiber: I prefer 2d because it apprears to be the smallest change that does the trick, but maybe someone can convince me this is wrong ←
15:49:11 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer ←
15:49:24 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, mute me ←
15:49:24 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin should now be muted ←
15:49:28 <gavinc> Turtle funkyness, "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:EN == "Bob"^^lang:en
Gavin Carothers: Turtle funkyness, "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:EN == "Bob"^^lang:en ←
15:49:52 <pchampin> my question is: are those datatypes (in option 3a) different in any way form other datatypes?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: my question is: are those datatypes (in option 3a) different in any way form other datatypes? ←
15:50:04 <pchampin> I think not, but some ppl seem to think so
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I think not, but some ppl seem to think so ←
15:50:16 <gavinc> datatype("Bob"@en) doesn't throw an error
Gavin Carothers: datatype("Bob"@en) doesn't throw an error ←
15:50:39 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011May/0425.html
Andy Seaborne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011May/0425.html ←
15:50:55 <ericP> gus, we lost yhou
Eric Prud'hommeaux: guus, we lost yhou ←
15:51:05 <AndyS> JJC's message from our archives
Andy Seaborne: JJC's message from our archives ←
15:51:06 <ericP> s/gus/guus/
15:51:07 <pchampin> ok thx
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ok thx ←
15:51:14 <pchampin> I'll look at that in more detail
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I'll look at that in more detail ←
15:51:20 <gavinc> -.-
Gavin Carothers: -.- ←
15:51:38 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
15:51:48 <ericP> ^^lang:en-fr
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ^^lang:en-fr ←
15:52:00 <Guus> sorry, seem to have problems
Guus Schreiber: sorry, seem to have problems ←
15:52:09 <sandro> "Bob"^^lang:en "Bob"@en
Sandro Hawke: "Bob"^^lang:en "Bob"@en ←
15:52:16 <pchampin> @gavin: we already have "bob"@en == "bob"@EN
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @gavin: we already have "bob"@en == "bob"@EN ←
15:52:28 <pchampin> and we don't have to allow lang:EN... could normalize to lang:en
Pierre-Antoine Champin: and we don't have to allow lang:EN... could normalize to lang:en ←
15:52:44 <gavinc> Yes! but .. "1"^^xsd:int != "1"^^xsd:INT
Gavin Carothers: Yes! but .. "1"^^xsd:int != "1"^^xsd:INT ←
15:52:47 <AndyS> + a prefix declaration.
Andy Seaborne: + a prefix declaration. ←
15:52:53 <ericP> ok, you each get 3billion people...
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ok, you each get 3billion people... ←
15:53:00 <pchampin> :-=
Pierre-Antoine Champin: :-= ←
15:53:04 <pchampin> :-)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: :-) ←
15:53:51 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
15:53:54 <AndyS> I wasn't aware any proposal was deprecating @
Andy Seaborne: I wasn't aware any proposal was deprecating @ ←
15:54:05 <AndyS> what happens in (shudder) RDF/XML?
Andy Seaborne: what happens in (shudder) RDF/XML? ←
15:54:14 <pchampin> @AndyS no, this was not the intent of 3a akaic
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @AndyS no, this was not the intent of 3a akaic ←
15:54:58 <ericP> trix?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: trix? ←
15:55:13 <Guus> [my phone apprears to be broken, sorry]
Guus Schreiber: [my phone apprears to be broken, sorry] ←
15:55:25 <AndyS> (I have never seen TriX in use)
Andy Seaborne: (I have never seen TriX in use) ←
15:55:37 <pchampin> zakim, unmute me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, unmute me ←
15:55:37 <Zakim> pchampin should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin should no longer be muted ←
15:55:47 <sandro> okay, you're close to convincing me to give up Option 3.....
Sandro Hawke: okay, you're close to convincing me to give up Option 3..... ←
15:56:11 <pchampin> we can normalize @EN to lang:en
Pierre-Antoine Champin: we can normalize @EN to lang:en ←
15:56:23 <ericP> the parser could do the smackdown on lang:eN-Fr
Eric Prud'hommeaux: the parser could do the smackdown on lang:eN-Fr ←
15:56:30 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, mute me ←
15:56:30 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin should now be muted ←
15:56:43 <gavinc> "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:en == "Bob"^^lang:en != "Bob"^^lang:EN
Gavin Carothers: "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:en == "Bob"^^lang:en != "Bob"^^lang:EN ←
15:56:49 <pchampin> yes
Pierre-Antoine Champin: yes ←
15:56:54 <sandro> right.
Sandro Hawke: right. ←
15:56:55 <gavinc> "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:en == "Bob"@EN != "Bob"^^lang:EN
Gavin Carothers: "Bob"@en == "Bob"^^lang:en == "Bob"@EN != "Bob"^^lang:EN ←
15:59:40 <sandro> so maybe we have make the lang-tag -> URI mapping fold to lower case.
Sandro Hawke: so maybe we have make the lang-tag -> URI mapping fold to lower case. ←
15:59:56 <sandro> ivan: i think technically that would be okay.
Ivan Herman: i think technically that would be okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:59:59 <AlexHall> IRI equivalence: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3987#section-5.1
Alex Hall: IRI equivalence: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3987#section-5.1 ←
16:00:07 <sandro> AndyS: Didn't we ask the OWL people?
Andy Seaborne: Didn't we ask the OWL people? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:00:15 <AlexHall> "Applications using IRIs as identity tokens with no relationship to a protocol MUST use the Simple String Comparison"
Alex Hall: "Applications using IRIs as identity tokens with no relationship to a protocol MUST use the Simple String Comparison" ←
16:00:18 <sandro> ivan: Ian Horrocks said it was okay, but maybe that was just in theory.
Ivan Herman: Ian Horrocks said it was okay, but maybe that was just in theory. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:01:56 <sandro> gavin: xpath defines language tags as case insentivie, too.
Gavin Carothers: xpath defines language tags as case insentivie, too. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:02:22 <sandro> eric: So everyone says they are case insensitive, so normalizing would be okay.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: So everyone says they are case insensitive, so normalizing would be okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:03:06 <gavinc> Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase.
Gavin Carothers: Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase. ←
16:03:12 <sandro> gavin: rdf spec says "normalized to lowercase"
Gavin Carothers: rdf spec says "normalized to lowercase" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:03:59 <AndyS> ... lang:en owl:sameAs eric:HeLLo
Andy Seaborne: ... lang:en owl:sameAs eric:HeLLo ←
16:04:43 <sandro> the proposal here for handling case is: @en == @EN == lang:en but NOT lang:EN
Sandro Hawke: the proposal here for handling case is: @en == @EN == lang:en but NOT lang:EN ←
16:04:58 <ivan> zh-Hant
Ivan Herman: zh-Hant ←
16:05:07 <sandro> (not that anyone is arguing in favor of this.)
Sandro Hawke: (not that anyone is arguing in favor of this.) ←
16:06:26 <swh> I think the @ syntax has to case fold, otherwise it will be too strange
Steve Harris: I think the @ syntax has to case fold, otherwise it will be too strange ←
16:07:15 <sandro> for sparql term matching, swh?
Sandro Hawke: for sparql term matching, swh? ←
16:07:27 <swh> sandro, yes
Steve Harris: sandro, yes ←
16:07:50 <swh> I would ban "foo"^^lang:bar in turtle, though that's a little strange
Steve Harris: I would ban "foo"^^lang:bar in turtle, though that's a little strange ←
16:07:54 <pchampin> makes the abstract simpler simpler
Pierre-Antoine Champin: makes the abstract simpler simpler ←
16:08:05 <pchampin> and seems to make everything else more complex :)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: and seems to make everything else more complex :) ←
16:08:22 <AndyS> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5646.txt sec 4.5
Andy Seaborne: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5646.txt sec 4.5 ←
16:08:29 <gavinc> datatype("bob"@en) does not do something errorish
Gavin Carothers: datatype("bob"@en) does not do something errorish ←
16:08:48 <pchampin> what does currently datatype("chat"@en) currently return?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: what does currently datatype("chat"@en) currently return? ←
16:09:00 <gavinc> nothing, it's an error
Gavin Carothers: nothing, it's an error ←
16:09:20 <pchampin> ok, so anyway, all options that aim to give a datatype to *every* literal will change SPARQL, right?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ok, so anyway, all options that aim to give a datatype to *every* literal will change SPARQL, right? ←
16:09:34 <gavinc> Yep!
Gavin Carothers: Yep! ←
16:09:52 <pchampin> is there an option on the table that will change SPARQL less than the others?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: is there an option on the table that will change SPARQL less than the others? ←
16:10:02 <gavinc> Yep! Do nothing.
Gavin Carothers: Yep! Do nothing. ←
16:10:06 <pchampin> :)
16:10:41 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:11:50 <Guus> [i'm back]
Guus Schreiber: [i'm back] ←
16:12:01 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
16:12:02 <Zakim> +??P30
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30 ←
16:12:10 <AndyS> zakim, ??P30 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P30 is me ←
16:12:10 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:12:11 <sandro> eric: Gavin says the reason for 2d over 1 is so you can do datatype("chat"@en).
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Gavin says the reason for 2d over 1 is so you can do datatype("chat"@en). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:12:19 <AndyS> zakim, please do not cut me off
Andy Seaborne: zakim, please do not cut me off ←
16:12:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please do not cut me off', AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'please do not cut me off', AndyS ←
16:12:41 <sandro> gavin: Folks in existing queries should be using NOT LANG(...)
Gavin Carothers: Folks in existing queries should be using NOT LANG(...) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:13:05 <AndyS> pchampin - tech answer is SPARQL does not require lang tags ; practically, impls care about STR() most.
Andy Seaborne: pchampin - tech answer is SPARQL does not require lang tags ; practically, impls care about STR() most. ←
16:13:10 <sandro> eric: there are current queries that will break with this change.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: there are current queries that will break with this change. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:13:22 <ericP> FILTER (LANG(?a) != "en-fr")
Eric Prud'hommeaux: FILTER (LANG(?a) != "en-fr") ←
16:13:35 <sandro> gavinc: but those are funky queries, so it's okay.
Gavin Carothers: but those are funky queries, so it's okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:13:50 <AndyS> then LANG() then LANGMATCHES()
Andy Seaborne: then LANG() then LANGMATCHES() ←
16:13:58 <sandro> eric: yeah, hard to find an example
Eric Prud'hommeaux: yeah, hard to find an example [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:19 <sandro> andy: FILTER with DATATYPE then LANG_MATCHES
Andy Seaborne: FILTER with DATATYPE then LANG_MATCHES [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:59 <pchampin> no, that was already in SPARQL
Pierre-Antoine Champin: no, that was already in SPARQL ←
16:15:02 <sandro> gavinc: We already broke that by removing Plain Literals.
Gavin Carothers: We already broke that by removing Plain Literals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:15:27 <pchampin> ok
16:15:36 <pchampin> good point
Pierre-Antoine Champin: good point ←
16:15:36 <AlexHall> which was exactly our intent :-)
Alex Hall: which was exactly our intent :-) ←
16:15:42 <sandro> okay. I'm convinced to support 2d.
Sandro Hawke: okay. I'm convinced to support 2d. ←
16:15:49 <Guus> sandro, you had a question for me which i did not hear and therefore did not answer
Guus Schreiber: sandro, you had a question for me which i did not hear and therefore did not answer ←
16:15:51 <pchampin> I move too
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I move too ←
16:16:26 <sandro> (in my heart I still love 3a, but ... it does seem like there are a lot of complications....)
Sandro Hawke: (in my heart I still love 3a, but ... it does seem like there are a lot of complications....) ←
16:16:33 <ivan> bye everybody
Ivan Herman: bye everybody ←
16:16:38 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:17:04 <pchampin> for the record, I'm still convinced that 2d can be interpreted as 3b
Pierre-Antoine Champin: for the record, I'm still convinced that 2d can be interpreted as 3b ←
16:17:07 <ericP> FILTER( (LANG(?a) != 'cd' | true) (?a -> '1'@ab) (?a -> '2'@cd) (?a -> '3'^^xsd:int))
Eric Prud'hommeaux: FILTER( (LANG(?a) != 'cd' | true) (?a -> '1'@ab) (?a -> '2'@cd) (?a -> '3'^^xsd:int)) ←
16:17:10 <ericP> => (?a -> '1'@ab)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: => (?a -> '1'@ab) ←
16:17:11 <pchampin> if that's any confort to Sandro ;)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: if that's any confort to Sandro ;) ←
16:17:24 <sandro> topic: turtle in html
16:17:29 <Zakim> -ww
Zakim IRC Bot: -ww ←
16:18:10 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus_Schreiber ←
16:19:16 <pchampin> nasty!!!
Pierre-Antoine Champin: nasty!!! ←
16:20:04 <sandro> <script type="text/javascript">
Sandro Hawke: <script type="text/javascript"> ←
16:20:04 <sandro> <!--//--><![CDATA[//><!--
Sandro Hawke: <!--//--><![CDATA[//><!-- ←
16:20:04 <sandro> ...
Sandro Hawke: ... ←
16:20:04 <sandro> /--><!]]>
Sandro Hawke: /--><!]]> ←
16:20:04 <sandro> </script>
Sandro Hawke: </script> ←
16:21:36 <davidwood> Sandro, what convinced you to support 2d?
David Wood: Sandro, what convinced you to support 2d? ←
16:23:16 <sandro> davidwood, Gavin and AndyS pointing out tricky corner cases that I didnt know how to solve well.
Sandro Hawke: davidwood, Gavin and AndyS pointing out tricky corner cases that I didnt know how to solve well. ←
16:23:36 <ericP> <script type="text/turtle">
Eric Prud'hommeaux: <script type="text/turtle"> ←
16:23:41 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:24:04 <pchampin> got to go too, bye evrybody
Pierre-Antoine Champin: got to go too, bye evrybody ←
16:24:10 <Zakim> -pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin ←
16:24:43 <gavinc> pre.example script {
Gavin Carothers: pre.example script { ←
16:24:45 <gavinc> display:block;
Gavin Carothers: display:block; ←
16:24:46 <ericP> pre.example script {
Eric Prud'hommeaux: pre.example script { ←
16:24:46 <ericP> display:block;
Eric Prud'hommeaux: display:block; ←
16:24:46 <ericP> }
16:24:46 <gavinc> }
Gavin Carothers: } ←
16:25:12 <sandro> Ciao
Sandro Hawke: Ciao ←
16:25:15 <davidwood> sandro, thanks. I'll read the minutes in detail.
David Wood: sandro, thanks. I'll read the minutes in detail. ←
16:25:36 <sandro> davidwood, it was after the meeting ended, so I was just taking notes, not really scribing.
Sandro Hawke: davidwood, it was after the meeting ended, so I was just taking notes, not really scribing. ←
16:26:08 <sandro> davidwood, we finished the meeting way early, then some of us stayed after to talk about language tags.
Sandro Hawke: davidwood, we finished the meeting way early, then some of us stayed after to talk about language tags. ←
16:26:20 <davidwood> ah
David Wood: ah ←
16:26:28 <davidwood> That's OK. I have a chat log.
David Wood: That's OK. I have a chat log. ←
16:26:33 <Zakim> -??P58
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P58 ←
16:26:46 <ericP> http://128.30.55.213/toy
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://128.30.55.213/toy ←
16:27:17 <davidwood> ericP: Do you what time you might want to talk this afternoon?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do you what time you might want to talk this afternoon? [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:27:29 <ericP> 10 mins from now?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: 10 mins from now? ←
16:27:59 <davidwood> ok
David Wood: ok ←
16:28:05 <davidwood> Skype or phone?
David Wood: Skype or phone? ←
16:28:42 <ericP> phone's a little easier for me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: phone's a little easier for me ←
16:28:48 <davidwood> ok
David Wood: ok ←
16:29:00 <ericP> #?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: #? ←
16:29:02 <davidwood> You have my numbers in email
David Wood: You have my numbers in email ←
16:29:08 <ericP> cool
Eric Prud'hommeaux: cool ←
16:29:11 <davidwood> +1.540.898.6410
David Wood: +1.540.898.6410 ←
16:39:32 <Zakim> -gavinc
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:39:33 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:39:35 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
16:39:36 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
16:39:37 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.917.aaaa, gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, NickH, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, ww, MacTed, Sandro, AlexHall, EricP, AZ,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.650.917.aaaa, gavinc, Guus_Schreiber, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, NickH, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, ww, MacTed, Sandro, AlexHall, EricP, AZ, ←
16:39:40 <Zakim> ... pchampin, Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: ... pchampin, Souri ←
Formatted by CommonScribe