Last week's minutes were approved.
Proposed dates for F2F2 are Jan 23-24 or Feb 2-3, in Amsterdam or Southampton; a poll is going to be set up shortly. Proposed dates for F2F3 are Jun 22-23 (Santa Barbara) or Boston (July 2 to 6). The objectives (and necessary inputs) for F2F2 were discussed and approved by the working group.
The prov-o document authors have agreed on an approach to model usage/generation time and qualifiers without a class EntityRole that is a subclass of Entity. They are in the process of modifying the ontology, the examples and the document. Final details such as name of properties are going to be discussed by them in a separate call.
the editors are planning to have a version ready for internal review next week.
The WG recorded three proposals that were approved by email vote during the week. A revision of the document incorporating the recent proposals (and further to be voted on) is going to be produced by the editors.
14:50:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-irc ←
14:50:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:50:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
14:50:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
14:50:05 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV ←
14:50:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:50:06 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes ←
14:50:06 <trackbot> Date: 03 November 2011
14:50:15 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03
14:50:23 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:50:35 <Luc> Scribe: Graham Klyne
(Scribe set to Graham Klyne)
14:50:41 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public ←
14:50:51 <Luc> Graham, everything should be set up for you
Luc Moreau: Graham, everything should be set up for you ←
14:52:49 <GK> OK, thanks.
OK, thanks. ←
14:53:07 <Luc> thanks for volunteering
Luc Moreau: thanks for volunteering ←
14:53:34 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started ←
14:53:41 <Zakim> +??P36
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36 ←
14:53:53 <GK> zakim, ??p36 is me
zakim, ??p36 is me ←
14:53:53 <Zakim> +GK; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it ←
14:56:43 <Luc> Topic: Admin
Summary: Last week's minutes were approved.
<luc> Summary: Last week's minutes were approved.
14:57:41 <Zakim> +Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc ←
14:57:57 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
14:58:06 <Paolo> zakim. ??P16 is me
Paolo Missier: zakim. ??P16 is me ←
14:58:16 <Paolo> zakim,??P16 is me
Paolo Missier: zakim,??P16 is me ←
14:58:16 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it ←
14:58:25 <Zakim> +Yolanda
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda ←
14:58:45 <Zakim> +tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo ←
14:59:05 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
14:59:08 <Zakim> +Yogesh_Simmhan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh_Simmhan ←
14:59:33 <Luc> @sandro, did you see my message about not being able to create a poll?
Luc Moreau: @sandro, did you see my message about not being able to create a poll? ←
15:00:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:00:33 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
Paul Groth: Zakim, [IPCaller] is me ←
15:00:33 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it ←
15:00:44 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
15:00:47 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:00:59 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:00:59 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:01:01 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:01 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:01:29 <GK> Luc: intro - see agenda
Luc Moreau: intro - see agenda ←
15:01:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:01:40 <GK> ... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03
... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03 ←
15:01:46 <Luc> Proposed: to accept minutes of last week's teleconference
PROPOSED: to accept minutes of last week's teleconference ←
15:01:54 <GK> ... no AOB for agenda
... no AOB for agenda ←
15:02:04 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
15:02:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see GK, Luc, Paolo, Yolanda, tlebo, Sandro, Yogesh_Simmhan, pgroth, ??P27, MacTed (muted), [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see GK, Luc, Paolo, Yolanda, tlebo, Sandro, Yogesh_Simmhan, pgroth, ??P27, MacTed (muted), [IPcaller] ←
15:02:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see smiles, vinh, StephenCresswell, Yogesh, tlebo, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, GK, GK1, MacTed, trackbot, sandro, stain
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see smiles, vinh, StephenCresswell, Yogesh, tlebo, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, GK, GK1, MacTed, trackbot, sandro, stain ←
15:02:10 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:02:14 <Yogesh> +1
Yogesh Simmhan: +1 ←
15:02:17 <GK> 0 (not present)
0 (not present) ←
15:02:17 <Paolo> (missed it)
Paolo Missier: (missed it) ←
15:02:24 <Paolo> 0 (not present)
Paolo Missier: 0 (not present) ←
15:03:08 <Luc> ACCEPTED: minutes of last week's teleconference
RESOLVED: minutes of last week's teleconference ←
15:03:17 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
15:03:19 <Luc> Topic: F2F2 and F2F3
Summary: Proposed dates for F2F2 are Jan 23-24 or Feb 2-3, in Amsterdam or Southampton; a poll is going to be set up shortly. Proposed dates for F2F3 are Jun 22-23 (Santa Barbara) or Boston (July 2 to 6). The objectives (and necessary inputs) for F2F2 were discussed and approved by the working group.
<luc>Summary: Proposed dates for F2F2 are Jan 23-24 or Feb 2-3, in Amsterdam or Southampton; a poll is going to be set up shortly. Proposed dates for F2F3 are Jun 22-23 (Santa Barbara) or Boston (July 2 to 6). The objectives (and necessary inputs) for F2F2 were discussed and approved by the working group.
15:03:28 <jcheney> zakim, ??P5 is me
James Cheney: zakim, ??P5 is me ←
15:03:28 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it ←
15:03:46 <Luc> January 23-24
Luc Moreau: January 23-24 ←
15:03:52 <Luc> February 2-3
Luc Moreau: February 2-3 ←
15:03:55 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Provenance WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- 2011-11-03 telecon agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03
Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: Provenance WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- 2011-11-03 telecon agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03 ←
15:03:59 <GK> Luc: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb
Luc Moreau: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb ←
15:04:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a] ←
15:04:03 <Luc> Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton
Luc Moreau: Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton ←
15:04:14 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo ←
15:04:18 <GK> ... will set up a poll for expressing preference
... will set up a poll for expressing preference ←
15:04:31 <GK> ... locations Amsterdam or Southampton
... locations Amsterdam or Southampton ←
15:04:45 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aaaa ←
15:04:56 <GK> Luc: asks about permissions for setting up poll
Luc Moreau: asks about permissions for setting up poll ←
15:05:02 <GK> Sandro: should have permissions nowq
Sandro Hawke: should have permissions now ←
15:05:12 <GK> s/nowq/now/
15:05:16 <Luc> June 22-23
Luc Moreau: June 22-23 ←
15:05:26 <Luc> June 22-23, santa barbara
Luc Moreau: June 22-23, santa barbara ←
15:05:39 <Luc> July 2 to 6, Boston
Luc Moreau: July 2 to 6, Boston ←
15:06:13 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:06:28 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2 ←
15:06:37 <GK> Luc: Jun dates colocate with IPAW12 - http://www.ipaw.info/ipaw12/
Luc Moreau: Jun dates colocate with IPAW12 - http://www.ipaw.info/ipaw12/ ←
15:06:43 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter ←
15:06:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aa] ←
15:06:56 <GK> Luc: Objectives for F2F2 meeting
Luc Moreau: Objectives for F2F2 meeting ←
15:07:18 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me
Daniel Garijo: Zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me ←
15:07:18 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it ←
15:07:21 <GK> ... charter indicates should be at last call for PROV-DM and PROV-O
... charter indicates should be at last call for PROV-DM and PROV-O ←
15:07:40 <GK> ... but don't feel this is realistic for Jan/early Feb
... but don't feel this is realistic for Jan/early Feb ←
15:08:02 <GK> ... But want to identify what remains to be done to release last calls.
... But want to identify what remains to be done to release last calls. ←
15:08:35 <GK> ... For PAQ, also want to identify what needs to be done to go to last call.
... For PAQ, also want to identify what needs to be done to go to last call. ←
15:08:44 <GK> ... as a NOTE, not REC-track
... as a NOTE, not REC-track ←
15:09:48 <GK> PROV-XML (deliverable 5) .. similarly want to identify what id needed.
PROV-XML (deliverable 5) .. similarly want to identify what id needed. ←
15:10:36 <GK> Luc: Primer due after M12(?), so identifying roadmap at F2F is goal
Luc Moreau: Primer due after M12(?), so identifying roadmap at F2F is goal ←
15:10:54 <GK> ... similarly for best practice "cookbook"
... similarly for best practice "cookbook" ←
15:11:08 <pgroth> +q
Paul Groth: +q ←
15:11:19 <GK> ... and call for implementations (?)
... and call for implementations (?) ←
15:11:22 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:11:51 <GK> Luc: thus... 8 topics is a good fit for 8 sessions at F2F
Luc Moreau: thus... 8 topics is a good fit for 8 sessions at F2F ←
15:12:08 <GK> ... inputs needed will be:
... inputs needed will be: ←
15:12:14 <GK> ... new version of PROV-DM
... new version of PROV-DM ←
15:12:46 <GK> ... released version of PROV-O
... released version of PROV-O ←
15:13:17 <GK> ... second working draft of PAQ, including querying
... second working draft of PAQ, including querying ←
15:13:29 <GK> ... first version of semantics
... first version of semantics ←
15:13:49 <GK> ... first version XML serialization, primer
... first version XML serialization, primer ←
15:14:04 <GK> ... outline of work plan for deliverable 6 (which is that?)
... outline of work plan for deliverable 6 (which is that?) ←
15:14:38 <GK> pgroth: have question about availability for next F2F in Europe
Paul Groth: have question about availability for next F2F in Europe ←
15:14:49 <smiles> +1 (at least for the Jan dates)
Simon Miles: +1 (at least for the Jan dates) ←
15:14:49 <MacTed> -1
Ted Thibodeau: -1 ←
15:14:53 <GK> +0.5 (depends on wife's state of health)
+0.5 ←
15:14:55 <Yogesh> -1
Yogesh Simmhan: -1 ←
15:14:55 <Christine> Paul - I joined late. Could you repreat the dates please?
Christine Runnegar: Paul - I joined late. Could you repreat the dates please? ←
15:15:06 <zednik> -1
Stephan Zednik: -1 ←
15:15:11 <satya> -1
Satya Sahoo: -1 ←
15:15:16 <Paolo> Luc: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb
Luc Moreau: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb [ Scribe Assist by Paolo Missier ] ←
15:15:16 <dgarijo> +1 ( I think)
Daniel Garijo: +1 ( I think) ←
15:15:21 <GK> s/(depends on wife's state of health)//
15:15:22 <Christine> +1 Feb
Christine Runnegar: +1 Feb ←
15:15:28 <Paolo> Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton
Paolo Missier: Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton ←
15:15:31 <GK> (that probably shouldn't be minuted)
(that probably shouldn't be minuted) ←
15:15:39 <Paolo> +1 (so far)
Paolo Missier: +1 (so far) ←
15:16:10 <Yogesh> Will not be able to travel to Europe...Can join by phone
Yogesh Simmhan: Will not be able to travel to Europe...Can join by phone ←
15:16:15 <GK> Luc: those with -1 response: is it dates or location?
Luc Moreau: those with -1 response: is it dates or location? ←
15:16:20 <GK> StephanZ: both
Stephan Zednik: both ←
15:16:31 <GK> Satya: availability of dates
Satya Sahoo: availability of dates ←
15:16:41 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:16:46 <pgroth> q-
Paul Groth: q- ←
15:17:13 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:17:17 <GK> Luc: feedback on objectives for next F2F, and inputs requested?
Luc Moreau: feedback on objectives for next F2F, and inputs requested? ←
15:17:28 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
15:17:42 <jcheney> q+
James Cheney: q+ ←
15:17:56 <Luc> ack smiles
Luc Moreau: ack smiles ←
15:18:42 <GK> jcheney: semantics means ontology, or separate deliverable. If separate deliverable, am I the leader? Need to figure out goals for separate semantics document.
James Cheney: does semantics mean ontology, or separate deliverable. If separate deliverable, am I the leader? Need to figure out goals for separate semantics document. ←
15:19:05 <GK> s/semantics means/does semantics mean/
15:19:32 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:19:34 <GK> Luc: asks paul to put agendum in for next week about semantics document
Luc Moreau: asks paul to put agendum in for next week about semantics document ←
15:19:35 <Luc> ack jch
Luc Moreau: ack jch ←
15:19:54 <dgarijo> yes
Daniel Garijo: yes ←
15:19:54 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:19:55 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
15:20:01 <dgarijo> (+1)
Daniel Garijo: (+1) ←
15:20:06 <GK> +1
+1 ←
15:20:09 <zednik> +1
Stephan Zednik: +1 ←
15:20:13 <Luc> Proposed: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F
PROPOSED: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F ←
15:20:16 <Luc> Proposed: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F2
PROPOSED: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F2 ←
15:20:17 <Paolo> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:20:28 <jcheney> +1
James Cheney: +1 ←
15:20:35 <Luc> Accepted: the objectives and inputs for F2F2
RESOLVED: the objectives and inputs for F2F2 ←
15:20:54 <Luc> Topic: PROV-O
Summary: The prov-o document authors have agreed on an approach to model usage/generation time and qualifiers without a class EntityRole that is a subclass of Entity. They are in the process of modifying the ontology, the examples and the document. Final details such as name of properties are going to be discussed by them in a separate call.
<luc>Summary: The prov-o document authors have agreed on an approach to model usage/generation time and qualifiers without a class EntityRole that is a subclass of Entity. They are in the process of modifying the ontology, the examples and the document. Final details such as name of properties are going to be discussed by them in a separate call.
15:21:04 <GK> (See http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2)
(See http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2) ←
15:21:46 <GK> Satya: report from PROV-O teleconference... alignment of DM and ontology, and other progress
Satya Sahoo: report from PROV-O teleconference... alignment of DM and ontology, and other progress ←
15:21:59 <GK> ... how to model entity roles. Two proposed approaches:
... how to model entity roles. Two proposed approaches: ←
15:22:18 <GK> ... (1) specialize ?? (subproerty of (?)
... (1) specialize ?? (subproerty of (?) ←
15:22:33 <GK> ... (2) use a new class
... (2) use a new class ←
15:23:12 <GK> ... given complexity of information being modelled.
... given complexity of information being modelled. ←
15:23:44 <GK> ... felt creating n-ary class was more intuitive
... felt creating n-ary class was more intuitive ←
15:24:08 <GK> ... explore option of allowing both approaches
... explore option of allowing both approaches ←
15:24:42 <tlebo> my impression from the OWL telecon was that we included both techniques into PROV-O, so neither was excluded.
Timothy Lebo: my impression from the OWL telecon was that we included both techniques into PROV-O, so neither was excluded. ←
15:24:51 <GK> ... actions of Luc, Daniel to define appropriate properties for linking the n-ary classes to the appropriate entities
... actions of Luc, Daniel to define appropriate properties for linking the n-ary classes to the appropriate entities ←
15:24:56 <GK> s.of/on/
s.of/on/ ←
15:25:04 <dgarijo> me too! :D
Daniel Garijo: me too! :D ←
15:25:20 <GK> Luc: wasn't present for action given to me... surprised!
Luc Moreau: wasn't present for action given to me... surprised! ←
15:25:30 <tlebo> (prov:used to point directly, versus prov:usedUsage points indirectly)
Timothy Lebo: (prov:used to point directly, versus prov:usedUsage points indirectly) ←
15:25:59 <GK> Satya: we felt you would be in better position as author of OPMO technique
Satya Sahoo: we felt you would be in better position as author of OPMO technique ←
15:26:16 <dgarijo> I thought we were going to use those names already.
Daniel Garijo: I thought we were going to use those names already. ←
15:26:35 <GK> Luc: feels that Tim, Stephan(?) are better placed to choose names.
Luc Moreau: feels that Tim, Stephan(?) are better placed to choose names. ←
15:26:50 <tlebo> +1, I can take a stab at the names.
Timothy Lebo: +1, I can take a stab at the names. ←
15:26:56 <zednik> I agree with tim and daniel, keep prov:used and prov:hadUsage
Stephan Zednik: I agree with tim and daniel, keep prov:used and prov:hadUsage ←
15:27:01 <pgroth> +q
Paul Groth: +q ←
15:27:32 <pgroth> q-
Paul Groth: q- ←
15:27:40 <GK> Luc: propose use names from example discussed on Monday, then discuss
Luc Moreau: propose use names from example discussed on Monday, then discuss ←
15:28:02 <zednik> +1 I am willing to help
Stephan Zednik: +1 I am willing to help ←
15:28:03 <dgarijo> @zednik: I think he is referring to the: entityUsed (or usedCause) properties.
Daniel Garijo: @zednik: I think he is referring to the: entityUsed (or usedCause) properties. ←
15:28:21 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:28:32 <satya> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2011-10-31#Meeting_Information
Satya Sahoo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2011-10-31#Meeting_Information ←
15:28:42 <GK> ACTION tlebo: propose names to use
ACTION tlebo: propose names to use ←
15:28:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Propose names to use [on Timothy Lebo - due 2011-11-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-41 - Propose names to use [on Timothy Lebo - due 2011-11-10]. ←
15:29:31 <dgarijo> sure
Daniel Garijo: sure ←
15:29:35 <dgarijo> I can help
Daniel Garijo: I can help ←
15:29:51 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:30:13 <GK> Satya: in other sections...
Satya Sahoo: in other sections... ←
15:30:15 <tlebo> Should we shoot to have the names by Monday noon?
Timothy Lebo: Should we shoot to have the names by Monday noon? ←
15:30:21 <GK> ... improving readability
... improving readability ←
15:30:47 <GK> ... also keeping doc aligned with PROV-DM
... also keeping doc aligned with PROV-DM ←
15:31:02 <Luc> @tlebo, as soon as possible, yes
Luc Moreau: @tlebo, as soon as possible, yes ←
15:31:04 <GK> ... inference rules may change
... inference rules may change ←
15:31:19 <GK> ... hopefully in next couple of days
... hopefully in next couple of days ←
15:31:30 <GK> Luc: action 40 still in progress
Luc Moreau: ACTION-40 still in progress ←
15:32:00 <GK> ... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/40
... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/40 ←
15:32:08 <GK> Satya: work in progress
Satya Sahoo: work in progress ←
15:32:11 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:32:20 <dgarijo> +q
Daniel Garijo: +q ←
15:32:44 <pgroth> +q
Paul Groth: +q ←
15:32:57 <GK> q+ to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity
q+ to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity ←
15:33:34 <GK> Satya: would like to leave examples showing both approaches,
Satya Sahoo: would like to leave examples showing both approaches, ←
15:33:35 <tlebo> zeknik's proposal includes the "EntityInRole" approach, no?
Timothy Lebo: zeknik's proposal includes the "EntityInRole" approach, no? ←
15:33:40 <Luc> ack dga
Luc Moreau: ack dga ←
15:33:54 <zednik> @tlebo no
Stephan Zednik: @tlebo no ←
15:33:55 <GK> ??: could be confusing, maybe put examples in another document?
??: could be confusing, maybe put examples in another document? ←
15:34:10 <GK> Satya: will introduce new sections, keep issues separated
Satya Sahoo: will introduce new sections, keep issues separated ←
15:34:12 <Luc> ack pg
Luc Moreau: ack pg ←
15:34:19 <dgarijo> @Graham: ?? is me
Daniel Garijo: @Graham: ?? is me ←
15:34:44 <tlebo> @zednik, s/prov:hadUsage/prov:qualifiedUse/ for the qualified version of prov:used ?
Timothy Lebo: @zednik, s/prov:hadUsage/prov:qualifiedUse/ for the qualified version of prov:used ? ←
15:34:54 <dgarijo> @Paul: yes, I was wondering exactly about the same thing. If we release 2 approaches, interoperability is going to be an issue!
Daniel Garijo: @Paul: yes, I was wondering exactly about the same thing. If we release 2 approaches, interoperability is going to be an issue! ←
15:34:56 <GK> pgroth: I think we need to pick one: (1) for interoperability, (2) avoinding confusion, keeping things easy to explain
Paul Groth: I think we need to pick one: (1) for interoperability, (2) avoinding confusion, keeping things easy to explain ←
15:35:03 <tlebo> q+
Timothy Lebo: q+ ←
15:35:07 <tlebo> q-
Timothy Lebo: q- ←
15:35:17 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
15:35:21 <GK> ... two ways of modelling same thing shouldn't happen.
... two ways of modelling same thing shouldn't happen. ←
15:35:23 <smiles> @pgroth agreed
Simon Miles: @pgroth agreed ←
15:35:33 <dgarijo> @paul:+1
Daniel Garijo: @paul:+1 ←
15:35:36 <tlebo> q+ to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).
Timothy Lebo: q+ to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too). ←
15:36:08 <pgroth> +q
Paul Groth: +q ←
15:36:16 <dgarijo> @tlebo: no, entityInRole is the concept we decided to drop on monday.
Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: no, entityInRole is the concept we decided to drop on monday. ←
15:36:33 <dgarijo> @tlebo: and replace it with Usage, Generation, Control.
Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: and replace it with Usage, Generation, Control. ←
15:36:58 <Paolo> +q
Paolo Missier: +q ←
15:37:12 <GK> satya: commenting on modelling alternatives - given preferebnce for n-ary approach, don't see how this can be avoided.
Satya Sahoo: commenting on modelling alternatives - given preferebnce for n-ary approach, don't see how this can be avoided. ←
15:37:23 <tlebo> we're just renaming the same design pattern, and including the ability to state it directly AND indirectly.
Timothy Lebo: we're just renaming the same design pattern, and including the ability to state it directly AND indirectly. ←
15:37:35 <GK> luc: I don't think either approach introduces more instances
Luc Moreau: I don't think either approach introduces more instances ←
15:38:02 <tlebo> +1 GK
Timothy Lebo: +1 GK ←
15:38:15 <Paolo> @Satya: I tried to make it clear that my comment was not putting one approach against the other -- it was rather provocatively on the OWL/RDF mapping in general
Paolo Missier: @Satya: I tried to make it clear that my comment was not putting one approach against the other -- it was rather provocatively on the OWL/RDF mapping in general ←
15:38:17 <dgarijo> @tlebo: what we are doing is stoping EntityInRole from being a subclass of Entity.
Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: what we are doing is stoping EntityInRole from being a subclass of Entity. ←
15:38:22 <GK> luc: my objection was to introducing (classes) not in PROV-DM
Luc Moreau: my objection was to introducing (classes) not in PROV-DM ←
15:38:42 <Paolo> +q
Paolo Missier: +q ←
15:38:55 <pgroth> queue
Paul Groth: queue ←
15:39:12 <Luc> ack GK
Luc Moreau: ack GK ←
15:39:12 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity
Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity ←
15:39:16 <GK> satya: can you show how extra nodes don't need to be added for OPMO
Satya Sahoo: can you show how extra nodes don't need to be added for OPMO ←
15:39:55 <GK> tim: don't see this as a contention, but new design that subsume's. Can use either direct or indirect approach
Timothy Lebo: don't see this as a contention, but new design that subsume's. Can use either direct or indirect approach ←
15:39:56 <Luc> ack tl
Luc Moreau: ack tl ←
15:39:56 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).
Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too). ←
15:40:55 <GK> pgroth: primer people are saying entityinrole is difficult to describe. We need one way to model.
Paul Groth: primer people are saying entityinrole is difficult to describe. We need one way to model. ←
15:41:04 <GK> ... would like to see this written down
... would like to see this written down ←
15:41:38 <Luc> ack pg
Luc Moreau: ack pg ←
15:42:20 <GK> satya: I am not clear about several issues relating to the alternative approach
Satya Sahoo: I am not clear about several issues relating to the alternative approach ←
15:42:40 <GK> pgroth: stephan and tim have clear idea about what needs to be done
Paul Groth: stephan and tim have clear idea about what needs to be done ←
15:42:49 <zednik> q+
Stephan Zednik: q+ ←
15:42:58 <Luc> ack pao
Luc Moreau: ack pao ←
15:43:00 <dgarijo> +1 to ultimate approach
Daniel Garijo: +1 to ultimate approach ←
15:43:12 <GK> satya: will not have two approaches, just the alternative approach
Satya Sahoo: will not have two approaches, just the alternative approach ←
15:43:25 <zednik> q-
Stephan Zednik: q- ←
15:43:41 <pgroth> but that's rdf :-)
Paul Groth: but that's rdf :-) ←
15:43:51 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:43:52 <Paolo> The EntityInRole approach has 19 nodes, about as many properties, and 3 new OWL classes
Paolo Missier: The EntityInRole approach has 19 nodes, about as many properties, and 3 new OWL classes ←
15:44:32 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:45:02 <tlebo> (the new "Usage, Generation, Control" qualifications of prov:used are subclasses of EntityInRole, but we won't be saying naming EntityInRole or asserting the subclass axioms.)
Timothy Lebo: (the new "Usage, Generation, Control" qualifications of prov:used are subclasses of EntityInRole, but we won't be naming EntityInRole or asserting the subclass axioms.) ←
15:45:15 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:45:16 <tlebo> s/saying//
15:45:18 <GK> paolo: node count shouldn't be used as argument for one approach over the other (?)
Paolo Missier: node count shouldn't be used as argument for one approach over the other (?) ←
15:45:46 <GK> Luc: one approach or two?
Luc Moreau: one approach or two? ←
15:46:08 <GK> Satya: one approach. New proposed approach, to be included when details are clear
Satya Sahoo: one approach. New proposed approach, to be included when details are clear ←
15:46:33 <GK> Luc: when will PROV-O document be finalized?
Luc Moreau: when will PROV-O document be finalized? ←
15:46:36 <tlebo> regarding EntityInRole: we are just renaming it AND permitting "more direct" ways to state less qualified usages.
Timothy Lebo: regarding EntityInRole: we are just renaming it AND permitting "more direct" ways to state less qualified usages. ←
15:47:05 <GK> ... i.e. available for WG review
... i.e. available for WG review ←
15:47:11 <zednik> @tlebo, but the semantics of Usage are different than the semantics of EntityInRole were
Stephan Zednik: @tlebo, but the semantics of Usage are different than the semantics of EntityInRole were ←
15:47:22 <dgarijo> @tim: but we are not just renaming it. EntityInRole is no longer a subclass of an Entity!
Daniel Garijo: @tim: but we are not just renaming it. EntityInRole is no longer a subclass of an Entity! ←
15:47:26 <GK> Satya: modelling changes will take time to work through
Satya Sahoo: modelling changes will take time to work through ←
15:47:55 <GK> Satya: new editorial workover in a couple of days. Modelling changes will take longer.
Satya Sahoo: new editorial workover in a couple of days. Modelling changes will take longer. ←
15:48:32 <dgarijo> @tlebo: if not, then the issues with double usages and new entity creation for the uses are still there.
Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: if not, then the issues with double usages and new entity creation for the uses are still there. ←
15:48:47 <tlebo> @dgarijo, I'm indifferent to whether EntityInRole is a subclass of Entity, it's fine to relax it.
Timothy Lebo: @dgarijo, I'm indifferent to whether EntityInRole is a subclass of Entity, it's fine to relax it. ←
15:49:26 <zednik> I think there is less agreement than was earlier assumed
Stephan Zednik: I think there is less agreement than was earlier assumed ←
15:49:34 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:49:37 <GK> Luc: worried that rest of author team doesn't seem to agree with new approach
Luc Moreau: worried that rest of author team doesn't seem to agree with new approach ←
15:49:43 <jcheney> +q
James Cheney: +q ←
15:50:29 <GK> Satya: can we have another separate call today or tomorrow to work this out.
Satya Sahoo: can we have another separate call today or tomorrow to work this out. ←
15:50:42 <tlebo> q+ to say we aren't disagreeing too much.
Timothy Lebo: q+ to say we aren't disagreeing too much. ←
15:50:49 <GK> Luc: we need you to reach a decision and give the rest of us something to review
Luc Moreau: we need you to reach a decision and give the rest of us something to review ←
15:51:03 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:51:25 <GK> Satya: will need some time to come up with missing parts not in OPMO/OWL
Satya Sahoo: will need some time to come up with missing parts not in OPMO/OWL ←
15:51:28 <dgarijo> @telbo: you are saying that EntityInRole being a subclass on an Entity is indiferent. It changes everything.
Daniel Garijo: @telbo: you are saying that EntityInRole being a subclass on an Entity is indiferent. It changes everything. ←
15:51:29 <Luc> ack jc
Luc Moreau: ack jc ←
15:52:14 <GK> jc: idea was raised as a thought experiment
James Cheney: idea was raised as a thought experiment ←
15:52:17 <tlebo> @dgarigo, stop scaring @luc :-)
Timothy Lebo: @dgarijo, stop scaring @luc :-) ←
15:52:41 <tlebo> s/go/jo/
15:53:06 <GK> ... subgroup doesn't necessarily agree, but if we can forge consensus that one approach is good enough to put out for review and comment, this would be a way forward
... subgroup doesn't necessarily agree, but if we can forge consensus that one approach is good enough to put out for review and comment, this would be a way forward ←
15:53:21 <dgarijo> @tlebo: ok, but I just thought we had an agreement after the other day's telecon. I'm ok about having a telecon afterwards though.
Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: ok, but I just thought we had an agreement after the other day's telecon. I'm ok about having a telecon afterwards though. ←
15:53:38 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:53:43 <GK> tlebo: not so much disagreeing, just ... converging on new direction?
Timothy Lebo: not so much disagreeing, just ... converging on new direction? ←
15:54:10 <tlebo> apologies for making it look like we are disagreeing.
Timothy Lebo: apologies for making it look like we are disagreeing. ←
15:54:11 <GK> Luc: team will continue work on document, make it available to WG ASAP
Luc Moreau: team will continue work on document, make it available to WG ASAP ←
15:54:12 <Luc> ack tl
Luc Moreau: ack tl ←
15:54:12 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to say we aren't disagreeing too much.
Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to say we aren't disagreeing too much. ←
15:54:29 <GK> Topic: PAQ document
Summary: the editors are planning to have a version ready for internal review next week.
<luc>Summary: the editors are planning to have a version ready for internal review next week.
15:55:35 <GK> pgroth: about same as couple of weeks ago. Have been waiting on things to settle in data model. Also in ontology - as these affect queries and handling of context
Paul Groth: about same as couple of weeks ago. Have been waiting on things to settle in data model. Also in ontology - as these affect queries and handling of context ←
15:55:57 <GK> ... expecting it will take about a week to bring this up to date
... expecting it will take about a week to bring this up to date ←
15:56:00 <GK> ... TODO
... TODO ←
15:56:05 <GK> ... context URIs and entities
... context URIs and entities ←
15:56:20 <GK> ... provenance services
... provenance services ←
15:56:29 <tlebo> (It's been a while since I've dug through OPMO - where's the best summary?)
Timothy Lebo: (It's been a while since I've dug through OPMO - where's the best summary?) ←
15:56:35 <GK> ... incremental updates
... incremental updates ←
15:56:41 <GK> ... editorial
... editorial ←
15:56:48 <satya> @Tim: http://openprovenance.org/model/opmo
Satya Sahoo: @Tim: http://openprovenance.org/model/opmo ←
15:57:28 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:57:34 <GK> ... w.r.t. incremental updates: How to get provenance information incrementally? Explaining fow to deal with large amounts of provenance?
... w.r.t. incremental updates: How to get provenance information incrementally? Explaining fow to deal with large amounts of provenance? ←
15:58:28 <tlebo> @satya thanks!
Timothy Lebo: @satya thanks! ←
15:58:31 <GK> Luc: do you mean this will be ready by next week?
Luc Moreau: do you mean this will be ready by next week? ←
15:58:50 <GK> Paul: I think we can manage that
Paul Groth: I think we can manage that ←
15:58:57 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:59:11 <GK> ACTION Pau: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week
ACTION Pau: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week ←
15:59:11 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Pau
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - Pau ←
15:59:27 <GK> ACTION pgroth: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week
ACTION pgroth: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week ←
15:59:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week [on Paul Groth - due 2011-11-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-42 - Drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week [on Paul Groth - due 2011-11-10]. ←
15:59:50 <GK> Topic: PROV-DM
Summary: The WG recorded three proposals that were approved by email vote during the week. A revision of the document incorporating the recent proposals (and further to be voted on) is going to be produced by the editors.
<luc> Summary: The WG recorded three proposals that were approved by email vote during the week. A revision of the document incorporating the recent proposals (and further to be voted on) is going to be produced by the editors.
15:59:51 <Luc> Accepted: Rename 'Entity Expression' into 'Entity Record'; similarly, rename 'XXX Expression' into 'XXX Record'.
RESOLVED: Rename 'Entity Expression' into 'Entity Record'; similarly, rename 'XXX Expression' into 'XXX Record'. ←
16:00:43 <Luc> Accepted: Attributes are a necessary part of prov-dm. Attribute-value pairs can be optionally included in Entity Expressions and Activity Expressions.
RESOLVED: Attributes are a necessary part of prov-dm. Attribute-value pairs can be optionally included in Entity Expressions and Activity Expressions. ←
16:00:57 <dgarijo> The definition from the incubator: Provenance of a resource is a record that describes entities and processes involved in producing and delivering or otherwise influencing that resource. Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducibility.
Daniel Garijo: The definition from the incubator: Provenance of a resource is a record that describes entities and processes involved in producing and delivering or otherwise influencing that resource. Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducibility. ←
16:01:32 <GK> Luc: Proposal on attributes - attributes are useful for interop with other provenance representations
Luc Moreau: Proposal on attributes - attributes are useful for interop with other provenance representations ←
16:02:09 <GK> ... questions about constraints associated with attributes; propose to remove these from the data model
... questions about constraints associated with attributes; propose to remove these from the data model ←
16:02:34 <GK> ... we may revisit entity constraints in context of semantics
... we may revisit entity constraints in context of semantics ←
16:02:39 <Luc> Accepted: Constraints related to attributes will be dropped: (derivation-attributes, use-attributes, generation-affects-attributes)
RESOLVED: Constraints related to attributes will be dropped: (derivation-attributes, use-attributes, generation-affects-attributes) ←
16:03:28 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
16:03:40 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:03:46 <GK> Luc: second proposal: will not enter into detail of what attributes are "characterizing"
Luc Moreau: second proposal: will not enter into detail of what attributes are "characterizing" ←
16:04:06 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:04:19 <GK> ... will start of document rev with all accepted proposals
... will start on document rev with all accepted proposals ←
16:04:24 <GK> s/of/on/
16:04:30 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:04:46 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo ←
16:04:48 <Zakim> -Yogesh_Simmhan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh_Simmhan ←
16:04:50 <Zakim> -tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo ←
16:04:50 <Zakim> -jcheney
Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney ←
16:04:51 <Zakim> -dgarijo
Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo ←
16:04:52 <GK> End of meeting.
End of meeting. ←
16:04:53 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:04:55 <Zakim> -??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17 ←
16:04:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a] ←
16:04:57 <Zakim> -Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo ←
16:04:58 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
16:05:02 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:05:08 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
16:05:19 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.633.aaaa ←
16:05:29 <Zakim> -??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P27 ←
16:05:41 <Zakim> -pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth ←
16:05:41 <Zakim> -GK
Zakim IRC Bot: -GK ←
16:06:06 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public
Luc Moreau: rrsagent, set log public ←
16:06:10 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes
Luc Moreau: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:06:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-minutes.html Luc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-minutes.html Luc ←
16:06:16 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon
Luc Moreau: trackbot, end telcon ←
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