edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 03 November 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03
Seen
Christine Runnegar, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Yogesh Simmhan
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
Graham Klyne
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. minutes of last week's teleconference link
  2. the objectives and inputs for F2F2 link
  3. Rename 'Entity Expression' into 'Entity Record'; similarly, rename 'XXX Expression' into 'XXX Record'. link
  4. Attributes are a necessary part of prov-dm. Attribute-value pairs can be optionally included in Entity Expressions and Activity Expressions. link
  5. Constraints related to attributes will be dropped: (derivation-attributes, use-attributes, generation-affects-attributes) link
Topics
  1. Admin

    Last week's minutes were approved.

  2. F2F2 and F2F3

    Proposed dates for F2F2 are Jan 23-24 or Feb 2-3, in Amsterdam or Southampton; a poll is going to be set up shortly. Proposed dates for F2F3 are Jun 22-23 (Santa Barbara) or Boston (July 2 to 6). The objectives (and necessary inputs) for F2F2 were discussed and approved by the working group.

  3. PROV-O

    The prov-o document authors have agreed on an approach to model usage/generation time and qualifiers without a class EntityRole that is a subclass of Entity. They are in the process of modifying the ontology, the examples and the document. Final details such as name of properties are going to be discussed by them in a separate call.

  4. PAQ document

    the editors are planning to have a version ready for internal review next week.

  5. PROV-DM

    The WG recorded three proposals that were approved by email vote during the week. A revision of the document incorporating the recent proposals (and further to be voted on) is going to be produced by the editors.

14:50:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-irc

14:50:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:50:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:50:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:50:05 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:50:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:50:06 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes

14:50:06 <trackbot> Date: 03 November 2011
14:50:15 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03
14:50:23 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:50:35 <Luc> Scribe: Graham Klyne

(Scribe set to Graham Klyne)

14:50:41 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:50:51 <Luc> Graham, everything should be set up for you

Luc Moreau: Graham, everything should be set up for you

14:52:49 <GK> OK, thanks.

OK, thanks.

14:53:07 <Luc> thanks for volunteering

Luc Moreau: thanks for volunteering

14:53:34 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:53:41 <Zakim> +??P36

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36

14:53:53 <GK> zakim, ??p36 is me

zakim, ??p36 is me

14:53:53 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

14:56:43 <Luc> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: Last week's minutes were approved.

<luc> Summary: Last week's minutes were approved.
14:57:41 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

14:57:57 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

14:58:06 <Paolo> zakim. ??P16 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim. ??P16 is me

14:58:16 <Paolo> zakim,??P16 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim,??P16 is me

14:58:16 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

14:58:25 <Zakim> +Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda

14:58:45 <Zakim> +tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo

14:59:05 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

14:59:08 <Zakim> +Yogesh_Simmhan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh_Simmhan

14:59:33 <Luc> @sandro, did you see my message about not being able to create a poll?

Luc Moreau: @sandro, did you see my message about not being able to create a poll?

15:00:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:00:33 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, [IPCaller] is me

15:00:33 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

15:00:44 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

15:00:47 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:00:59 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:00:59 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:01:01 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:01:01 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:01:29 <GK> Luc: intro - see agenda

Luc Moreau: intro - see agenda

15:01:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:01:40 <GK> ... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03

... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03

15:01:46 <Luc> Proposed: to accept minutes of last week's teleconference

PROPOSED: to accept minutes of last week's teleconference

15:01:54 <GK> ... no AOB for agenda

... no AOB for agenda

15:02:04 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:02:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see GK, Luc, Paolo, Yolanda, tlebo, Sandro, Yogesh_Simmhan, pgroth, ??P27, MacTed (muted), [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see GK, Luc, Paolo, Yolanda, tlebo, Sandro, Yogesh_Simmhan, pgroth, ??P27, MacTed (muted), [IPcaller]

15:02:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see smiles, vinh, StephenCresswell, Yogesh, tlebo, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, GK, GK1, MacTed, trackbot, sandro, stain

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see smiles, vinh, StephenCresswell, Yogesh, tlebo, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, GK, GK1, MacTed, trackbot, sandro, stain

15:02:10 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:02:14 <Yogesh> +1

Yogesh Simmhan: +1

15:02:17 <GK> 0 (not present)

0 (not present)

15:02:17 <Paolo> (missed it)

Paolo Missier: (missed it)

15:02:24 <Paolo> 0 (not present)

Paolo Missier: 0 (not present)

15:03:08 <Luc> ACCEPTED: minutes of last week's teleconference

RESOLVED: minutes of last week's teleconference

15:03:17 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

15:03:19 <Luc> Topic: F2F2 and F2F3

2. F2F2 and F2F3

Summary: Proposed dates for F2F2 are Jan 23-24 or Feb 2-3, in Amsterdam or Southampton; a poll is going to be set up shortly. Proposed dates for F2F3 are Jun 22-23 (Santa Barbara) or Boston (July 2 to 6). The objectives (and necessary inputs) for F2F2 were discussed and approved by the working group.

<luc>Summary: Proposed dates for F2F2 are Jan 23-24 or Feb 2-3, in Amsterdam or Southampton; a poll is going to be set up shortly.  Proposed dates for F2F3 are Jun 22-23 (Santa Barbara) or Boston (July 2 to 6).  The objectives (and necessary inputs) for F2F2 were discussed and approved by the working group.
15:03:28 <jcheney> zakim, ??P5 is me

James Cheney: zakim, ??P5 is me

15:03:28 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:03:46 <Luc> January 23-24

Luc Moreau: January 23-24

15:03:52 <Luc> February 2-3

Luc Moreau: February 2-3

15:03:55 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Provenance WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- 2011-11-03 telecon agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03

Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: Provenance WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- 2011-11-03 telecon agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.03

15:03:59 <GK> Luc: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb

Luc Moreau: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb

15:04:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

15:04:03 <Luc> Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton

Luc Moreau: Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton

15:04:14 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

15:04:18 <GK> ... will set up a poll for expressing preference

... will set up a poll for expressing preference

15:04:31 <GK> ... locations Amsterdam or Southampton

... locations Amsterdam or Southampton

15:04:45 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aaaa

15:04:56 <GK> Luc: asks about permissions for setting up poll

Luc Moreau: asks about permissions for setting up poll

15:05:02 <GK> Sandro: should have permissions nowq

Sandro Hawke: should have permissions now

15:05:12 <GK> s/nowq/now/
15:05:16 <Luc> June 22-23

Luc Moreau: June 22-23

15:05:26 <Luc> June 22-23, santa barbara

Luc Moreau: June 22-23, santa barbara

15:05:39 <Luc> July 2 to 6, Boston

Luc Moreau: July 2 to 6, Boston

15:06:13 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:06:28 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2

15:06:37 <GK> Luc: Jun dates colocate with IPAW12 - http://www.ipaw.info/ipaw12/

Luc Moreau: Jun dates colocate with IPAW12 - http://www.ipaw.info/ipaw12/

15:06:43 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter

15:06:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aa]

15:06:56 <GK> Luc: Objectives for F2F2 meeting

Luc Moreau: Objectives for F2F2 meeting

15:07:18 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me

15:07:18 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:07:21 <GK> ... charter indicates should be at last call for PROV-DM and PROV-O

... charter indicates should be at last call for PROV-DM and PROV-O

15:07:40 <GK> ... but don't feel this is realistic for Jan/early Feb

... but don't feel this is realistic for Jan/early Feb

15:08:02 <GK> ... But want to identify what remains to be done to release last calls.

... But want to identify what remains to be done to release last calls.

15:08:35 <GK> ... For PAQ, also want to identify what needs to be done to go to last call.

... For PAQ, also want to identify what needs to be done to go to last call.

15:08:44 <GK> ... as a NOTE, not REC-track

... as a NOTE, not REC-track

15:09:48 <GK> PROV-XML (deliverable 5) .. similarly want to identify what id needed.

PROV-XML (deliverable 5) .. similarly want to identify what id needed.

15:10:36 <GK> Luc: Primer due after M12(?), so identifying roadmap at F2F is goal

Luc Moreau: Primer due after M12(?), so identifying roadmap at F2F is goal

15:10:54 <GK> ... similarly for best practice "cookbook"

... similarly for best practice "cookbook"

15:11:08 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:11:19 <GK> ... and call for implementations (?)

... and call for implementations (?)

15:11:22 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:11:51 <GK> Luc: thus... 8 topics is a good fit for 8 sessions at F2F

Luc Moreau: thus... 8 topics is a good fit for 8 sessions at F2F

15:12:08 <GK> ... inputs needed will be:

... inputs needed will be:

15:12:14 <GK> ... new version of PROV-DM

... new version of PROV-DM

15:12:46 <GK> ... released version of PROV-O

... released version of PROV-O

15:13:17 <GK> ... second working draft of PAQ, including querying

... second working draft of PAQ, including querying

15:13:29 <GK> ... first version of semantics

... first version of semantics

15:13:49 <GK> ... first version XML serialization, primer

... first version XML serialization, primer

15:14:04 <GK> ... outline of work plan for deliverable 6 (which is that?)

... outline of work plan for deliverable 6 (which is that?)

15:14:38 <GK> pgroth: have question about availability for next F2F in Europe

Paul Groth: have question about availability for next F2F in Europe

15:14:49 <smiles> +1 (at least for the Jan dates)

Simon Miles: +1 (at least for the Jan dates)

15:14:49 <MacTed> -1

Ted Thibodeau: -1

15:14:53 <GK> +0.5 (depends on wife's state of health)

+0.5

15:14:55 <Yogesh> -1

Yogesh Simmhan: -1

15:14:55 <Christine> Paul - I joined late. Could you repreat the dates please?

Christine Runnegar: Paul - I joined late. Could you repreat the dates please?

15:15:06 <zednik> -1

Stephan Zednik: -1

15:15:11 <satya> -1

Satya Sahoo: -1

15:15:16 <Paolo> Luc: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb

Luc Moreau: possible dates for F2F2 - 23, 24 Jan or 2-3 Feb [ Scribe Assist by Paolo Missier ]

15:15:16 <dgarijo> +1 ( I think)

Daniel Garijo: +1 ( I think)

15:15:21 <GK> s/(depends on wife's state of health)//
15:15:22 <Christine> +1 Feb

Christine Runnegar: +1 Feb

15:15:28 <Paolo> Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton

Paolo Missier: Proposed locations: Amsterdam (preferably, since more options), Southampton

15:15:31 <GK> (that probably shouldn't be minuted)

(that probably shouldn't be minuted)

15:15:39 <Paolo> +1 (so far)

Paolo Missier: +1 (so far)

15:16:10 <Yogesh> Will not be able to travel to Europe...Can join by phone

Yogesh Simmhan: Will not be able to travel to Europe...Can join by phone

15:16:15 <GK> Luc: those with -1 response: is it dates or location?

Luc Moreau: those with -1 response: is it dates or location?

15:16:20 <GK> StephanZ: both

Stephan Zednik: both

15:16:31 <GK> Satya: availability of dates

Satya Sahoo: availability of dates

15:16:41 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:16:46 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:17:13 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:17:17 <GK> Luc: feedback on objectives for next F2F, and inputs requested?

Luc Moreau: feedback on objectives for next F2F, and inputs requested?

15:17:28 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:17:42 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

15:17:56 <Luc> ack smiles

Luc Moreau: ack smiles

15:18:42 <GK> jcheney: semantics means ontology, or separate deliverable.  If separate deliverable, am I the leader?  Need to figure out goals for separate semantics document.

James Cheney: does semantics mean ontology, or separate deliverable. If separate deliverable, am I the leader? Need to figure out goals for separate semantics document.

15:19:05 <GK> s/semantics means/does semantics mean/
15:19:32 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:19:34 <GK> Luc: asks paul to put agendum in for next week about semantics document

Luc Moreau: asks paul to put agendum in for next week about semantics document

15:19:35 <Luc> ack jch

Luc Moreau: ack jch

15:19:54 <dgarijo> yes

Daniel Garijo: yes

15:19:54 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:19:55 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:20:01 <dgarijo> (+1)

Daniel Garijo: (+1)

15:20:06 <GK> +1

+1

15:20:09 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:20:13 <Luc> Proposed: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F

PROPOSED: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F

15:20:16 <Luc> Proposed: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F2

PROPOSED: to accept the objectives and inputs for F2F2

15:20:17 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:20:28 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:20:35 <Luc> Accepted: the objectives and inputs for F2F2

RESOLVED: the objectives and inputs for F2F2

15:20:54 <Luc> Topic: PROV-O

3. PROV-O

Summary: The prov-o document authors have agreed on an approach to model usage/generation time and qualifiers without a class EntityRole that is a subclass of Entity. They are in the process of modifying the ontology, the examples and the document. Final details such as name of properties are going to be discussed by them in a separate call.

<luc>Summary: The prov-o document authors have agreed on an approach to model usage/generation time and qualifiers without a class EntityRole that is a subclass of Entity.  They are in the process of modifying the ontology, the examples and the document.  Final details such as name of properties are going to be discussed by them in a separate call.
15:21:04 <GK> (See http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2)

(See http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2)

15:21:46 <GK> Satya: report from PROV-O teleconference... alignment of DM and ontology, and other progress

Satya Sahoo: report from PROV-O teleconference... alignment of DM and ontology, and other progress

15:21:59 <GK> ... how to model entity roles. Two proposed approaches:

... how to model entity roles. Two proposed approaches:

15:22:18 <GK> ... (1) specialize ?? (subproerty of (?)

... (1) specialize ?? (subproerty of (?)

15:22:33 <GK> ... (2) use a new class

... (2) use a new class

15:23:12 <GK> ... given complexity of information being modelled.

... given complexity of information being modelled.

15:23:44 <GK> ... felt creating n-ary class was more intuitive

... felt creating n-ary class was more intuitive

15:24:08 <GK> ... explore option of allowing both approaches

... explore option of allowing both approaches

15:24:42 <tlebo> my impression from the OWL telecon was that we included both techniques into PROV-O, so neither was excluded.

Timothy Lebo: my impression from the OWL telecon was that we included both techniques into PROV-O, so neither was excluded.

15:24:51 <GK> ... actions of Luc, Daniel to define appropriate properties for linking the n-ary classes to the appropriate entities

... actions of Luc, Daniel to define appropriate properties for linking the n-ary classes to the appropriate entities

15:24:56 <GK> s.of/on/

s.of/on/

15:25:04 <dgarijo> me too! :D

Daniel Garijo: me too! :D

15:25:20 <GK> Luc: wasn't present for action given to me... surprised!

Luc Moreau: wasn't present for action given to me... surprised!

15:25:30 <tlebo> (prov:used to point directly, versus prov:usedUsage points indirectly)

Timothy Lebo: (prov:used to point directly, versus prov:usedUsage points indirectly)

15:25:59 <GK> Satya: we felt you would be in better position as author of OPMO technique

Satya Sahoo: we felt you would be in better position as author of OPMO technique

15:26:16 <dgarijo> I thought we were going to use those names already.

Daniel Garijo: I thought we were going to use those names already.

15:26:35 <GK> Luc: feels that Tim, Stephan(?) are better placed to choose names.

Luc Moreau: feels that Tim, Stephan(?) are better placed to choose names.

15:26:50 <tlebo> +1, I can take a stab at the names.

Timothy Lebo: +1, I can take a stab at the names.

15:26:56 <zednik> I agree with tim and daniel, keep prov:used and prov:hadUsage

Stephan Zednik: I agree with tim and daniel, keep prov:used and prov:hadUsage

15:27:01 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:27:32 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:27:40 <GK> Luc: propose use names from example discussed on Monday, then discuss

Luc Moreau: propose use names from example discussed on Monday, then discuss

15:28:02 <zednik> +1 I am willing to help

Stephan Zednik: +1 I am willing to help

15:28:03 <dgarijo> @zednik: I think he is referring to the: entityUsed (or usedCause) properties.

Daniel Garijo: @zednik: I think he is referring to the: entityUsed (or usedCause) properties.

15:28:21 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:28:32 <satya>  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2011-10-31#Meeting_Information

Satya Sahoo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2011-10-31#Meeting_Information

15:28:42 <GK> ACTION tlebo: propose names to use

ACTION tlebo: propose names to use

15:28:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Propose names to use [on Timothy Lebo - due 2011-11-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-41 - Propose names to use [on Timothy Lebo - due 2011-11-10].

15:29:31 <dgarijo> sure

Daniel Garijo: sure

15:29:35 <dgarijo> I can help

Daniel Garijo: I can help

15:29:51 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:30:13 <GK> Satya: in other sections...

Satya Sahoo: in other sections...

15:30:15 <tlebo> Should we shoot to have the names by Monday noon?

Timothy Lebo: Should we shoot to have the names by Monday noon?

15:30:21 <GK> ... improving readability

... improving readability

15:30:47 <GK> ... also keeping doc aligned with PROV-DM

... also keeping doc aligned with PROV-DM

15:31:02 <Luc> @tlebo, as soon as possible, yes

Luc Moreau: @tlebo, as soon as possible, yes

15:31:04 <GK> ... inference rules may change

... inference rules may change

15:31:19 <GK> ... hopefully in next couple of days

... hopefully in next couple of days

15:31:30 <GK> Luc: action 40 still in progress

Luc Moreau: ACTION-40 still in progress

15:32:00 <GK> ... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/40

... http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/40

15:32:08 <GK> Satya: work in progress

Satya Sahoo: work in progress

15:32:11 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:32:20 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:32:44 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:32:57 <GK> q+ to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity

q+ to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity

15:33:34 <GK> Satya: would like to leave examples showing both approaches,

Satya Sahoo: would like to leave examples showing both approaches,

15:33:35 <tlebo> zeknik's proposal includes the "EntityInRole" approach, no?

Timothy Lebo: zeknik's proposal includes the "EntityInRole" approach, no?

15:33:40 <Luc> ack dga

Luc Moreau: ack dga

15:33:54 <zednik> @tlebo no

Stephan Zednik: @tlebo no

15:33:55 <GK> ??: could be confusing, maybe put examples in another document?

??: could be confusing, maybe put examples in another document?

15:34:10 <GK> Satya: will introduce new sections, keep issues separated

Satya Sahoo: will introduce new sections, keep issues separated

15:34:12 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

15:34:19 <dgarijo> @Graham: ?? is me

Daniel Garijo: @Graham: ?? is me

15:34:44 <tlebo> @zednik, s/prov:hadUsage/prov:qualifiedUse/ for the qualified version of prov:used ?

Timothy Lebo: @zednik, s/prov:hadUsage/prov:qualifiedUse/ for the qualified version of prov:used ?

15:34:54 <dgarijo> @Paul: yes, I was wondering exactly about the same thing. If we release 2 approaches, interoperability is going to be an issue!

Daniel Garijo: @Paul: yes, I was wondering exactly about the same thing. If we release 2 approaches, interoperability is going to be an issue!

15:34:56 <GK> pgroth: I think we need to pick one: (1) for interoperability, (2) avoinding confusion, keeping things easy to explain

Paul Groth: I think we need to pick one: (1) for interoperability, (2) avoinding confusion, keeping things easy to explain

15:35:03 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

15:35:07 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

15:35:17 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:35:21 <GK> ... two ways of modelling same thing shouldn't happen.

... two ways of modelling same thing shouldn't happen.

15:35:23 <smiles> @pgroth agreed

Simon Miles: @pgroth agreed

15:35:33 <dgarijo> @paul:+1

Daniel Garijo: @paul:+1

15:35:36 <tlebo> q+ to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).

Timothy Lebo: q+ to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).

15:36:08 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:36:16 <dgarijo> @tlebo: no, entityInRole is the concept we decided to drop on monday.

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: no, entityInRole is the concept we decided to drop on monday.

15:36:33 <dgarijo> @tlebo: and replace it with Usage, Generation, Control.

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: and replace it with Usage, Generation, Control.

15:36:58 <Paolo> +q

Paolo Missier: +q

15:37:12 <GK> satya: commenting on modelling alternatives - given preferebnce for n-ary approach, don't see how this can be avoided.

Satya Sahoo: commenting on modelling alternatives - given preferebnce for n-ary approach, don't see how this can be avoided.

15:37:23 <tlebo> we're just renaming the same design pattern, and including the ability to state it directly AND indirectly.

Timothy Lebo: we're just renaming the same design pattern, and including the ability to state it directly AND indirectly.

15:37:35 <GK> luc: I don't think either approach introduces more instances

Luc Moreau: I don't think either approach introduces more instances

15:38:02 <tlebo> +1 GK

Timothy Lebo: +1 GK

15:38:15 <Paolo> @Satya: I tried to make it clear that my comment was not putting one approach against the other  -- it was rather provocatively on the OWL/RDF mapping in general

Paolo Missier: @Satya: I tried to make it clear that my comment was not putting one approach against the other -- it was rather provocatively on the OWL/RDF mapping in general

15:38:17 <dgarijo> @tlebo: what we are doing is stoping EntityInRole from being a subclass of Entity.

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: what we are doing is stoping EntityInRole from being a subclass of Entity.

15:38:22 <GK> luc: my objection was to introducing (classes) not in PROV-DM

Luc Moreau: my objection was to introducing (classes) not in PROV-DM

15:38:42 <Paolo> +q

Paolo Missier: +q

15:38:55 <pgroth> queue

Paul Groth: queue

15:39:12 <Luc> ack GK

Luc Moreau: ack GK

15:39:12 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to ask about taking on board Ivan's comments about complexity

15:39:16 <GK> satya: can you show how extra nodes don't need to be added for OPMO

Satya Sahoo: can you show how extra nodes don't need to be added for OPMO

15:39:55 <GK> tim: don't see this as a contention, but new design that subsume's.  Can use either direct or indirect approach

Timothy Lebo: don't see this as a contention, but new design that subsume's. Can use either direct or indirect approach

15:39:56 <Luc> ack tl

Luc Moreau: ack tl

15:39:56 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).

Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to say that EntityInRole is part of the new design proposal (it includes it's more direct alternative, too).

15:40:55 <GK> pgroth: primer people are saying entityinrole is difficult to describe.  We need one way to model.

Paul Groth: primer people are saying entityinrole is difficult to describe. We need one way to model.

15:41:04 <GK> ... would like to see this written down

... would like to see this written down

15:41:38 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

15:42:20 <GK> satya: I am not clear about several issues relating to the alternative approach

Satya Sahoo: I am not clear about several issues relating to the alternative approach

15:42:40 <GK> pgroth: stephan and tim have clear idea about what needs to be done

Paul Groth: stephan and tim have clear idea about what needs to be done

15:42:49 <zednik> q+

Stephan Zednik: q+

15:42:58 <Luc> ack pao

Luc Moreau: ack pao

15:43:00 <dgarijo> +1 to ultimate approach

Daniel Garijo: +1 to ultimate approach

15:43:12 <GK> satya: will not have two approaches, just the alternative approach

Satya Sahoo: will not have two approaches, just the alternative approach

15:43:25 <zednik> q-

Stephan Zednik: q-

15:43:41 <pgroth> but that's rdf :-)

Paul Groth: but that's rdf :-)

15:43:51 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:43:52 <Paolo> The EntityInRole approach has 19 nodes, about as many properties, and 3 new OWL classes

Paolo Missier: The EntityInRole approach has 19 nodes, about as many properties, and 3 new OWL classes

15:44:32 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:45:02 <tlebo> (the new "Usage, Generation, Control" qualifications of prov:used are subclasses of EntityInRole, but we won't be saying naming EntityInRole or asserting the subclass axioms.)

Timothy Lebo: (the new "Usage, Generation, Control" qualifications of prov:used are subclasses of EntityInRole, but we won't be naming EntityInRole or asserting the subclass axioms.)

15:45:15 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:45:16 <tlebo> s/saying//
15:45:18 <GK> paolo: node count shouldn't be used as argument for one approach over the other (?)

Paolo Missier: node count shouldn't be used as argument for one approach over the other (?)

15:45:46 <GK> Luc: one approach or two?

Luc Moreau: one approach or two?

15:46:08 <GK> Satya: one approach.  New proposed approach, to be included when details are clear

Satya Sahoo: one approach. New proposed approach, to be included when details are clear

15:46:33 <GK> Luc: when will PROV-O document be finalized?

Luc Moreau: when will PROV-O document be finalized?

15:46:36 <tlebo> regarding EntityInRole: we are just renaming it AND permitting "more direct" ways to state less qualified usages.

Timothy Lebo: regarding EntityInRole: we are just renaming it AND permitting "more direct" ways to state less qualified usages.

15:47:05 <GK> ... i.e. available for WG review

... i.e. available for WG review

15:47:11 <zednik> @tlebo, but the semantics of Usage are different than the semantics of EntityInRole were

Stephan Zednik: @tlebo, but the semantics of Usage are different than the semantics of EntityInRole were

15:47:22 <dgarijo> @tim: but we are not just renaming it. EntityInRole is no longer a subclass of an Entity!

Daniel Garijo: @tim: but we are not just renaming it. EntityInRole is no longer a subclass of an Entity!

15:47:26 <GK> Satya: modelling changes will take time to work through

Satya Sahoo: modelling changes will take time to work through

15:47:55 <GK> Satya: new editorial workover in a couple of days.  Modelling changes will take longer.

Satya Sahoo: new editorial workover in a couple of days. Modelling changes will take longer.

15:48:32 <dgarijo> @tlebo: if not, then the issues with double usages and new entity creation for the uses are still there.

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: if not, then the issues with double usages and new entity creation for the uses are still there.

15:48:47 <tlebo> @dgarijo, I'm indifferent to whether EntityInRole is a subclass of Entity, it's fine to relax it.

Timothy Lebo: @dgarijo, I'm indifferent to whether EntityInRole is a subclass of Entity, it's fine to relax it.

15:49:26 <zednik> I think there is less agreement than was earlier assumed

Stephan Zednik: I think there is less agreement than was earlier assumed

15:49:34 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:49:37 <GK> Luc: worried that rest of author team doesn't seem to agree with new approach

Luc Moreau: worried that rest of author team doesn't seem to agree with new approach

15:49:43 <jcheney> +q

James Cheney: +q

15:50:29 <GK> Satya: can we have another separate call today or tomorrow to work this out.

Satya Sahoo: can we have another separate call today or tomorrow to work this out.

15:50:42 <tlebo> q+ to say we aren't disagreeing too much.

Timothy Lebo: q+ to say we aren't disagreeing too much.

15:50:49 <GK> Luc: we need you to reach a decision and give the rest of us something to review

Luc Moreau: we need you to reach a decision and give the rest of us something to review

15:51:03 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:51:25 <GK> Satya: will need some time to come up with missing parts not in OPMO/OWL

Satya Sahoo: will need some time to come up with missing parts not in OPMO/OWL

15:51:28 <dgarijo> @telbo:  you are saying that EntityInRole being a subclass on an Entity is indiferent. It changes everything.

Daniel Garijo: @telbo: you are saying that EntityInRole being a subclass on an Entity is indiferent. It changes everything.

15:51:29 <Luc> ack jc

Luc Moreau: ack jc

15:52:14 <GK> jc: idea was raised as a thought experiment

James Cheney: idea was raised as a thought experiment

15:52:17 <tlebo> @dgarigo, stop scaring @luc :-)

Timothy Lebo: @dgarijo, stop scaring @luc :-)

15:52:41 <tlebo> s/go/jo/
15:53:06 <GK> ... subgroup doesn't necessarily agree, but if we can forge consensus that one approach is good enough to put out for review and comment, this would be a way forward

... subgroup doesn't necessarily agree, but if we can forge consensus that one approach is good enough to put out for review and comment, this would be a way forward

15:53:21 <dgarijo> @tlebo: ok, but I just thought we had an agreement after the other day's telecon. I'm ok about having a telecon afterwards though.

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: ok, but I just thought we had an agreement after the other day's telecon. I'm ok about having a telecon afterwards though.

15:53:38 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:53:43 <GK> tlebo:  not so much disagreeing, just ... converging on new direction?

Timothy Lebo: not so much disagreeing, just ... converging on new direction?

15:54:10 <tlebo> apologies for making it look like we are disagreeing.

Timothy Lebo: apologies for making it look like we are disagreeing.

15:54:11 <GK> Luc: team will continue work on document, make it available to WG ASAP

Luc Moreau: team will continue work on document, make it available to WG ASAP

15:54:12 <Luc> ack tl

Luc Moreau: ack tl

15:54:12 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to say we aren't disagreeing too much.

Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to say we aren't disagreeing too much.

15:54:29 <GK> Topic: PAQ document

4. PAQ document

Summary: the editors are planning to have a version ready for internal review next week.

<luc>Summary: the editors are planning to have a version ready for internal review next week.
15:55:35 <GK> pgroth: about same as couple of weeks ago.  Have been waiting on things to settle in data model. Also in ontology - as these affect queries and handling of context

Paul Groth: about same as couple of weeks ago. Have been waiting on things to settle in data model. Also in ontology - as these affect queries and handling of context

15:55:57 <GK> ... expecting it will take about a week to bring this up to date

... expecting it will take about a week to bring this up to date

15:56:00 <GK> ... TODO

... TODO

15:56:05 <GK> ... context URIs and entities

... context URIs and entities

15:56:20 <GK> ... provenance services

... provenance services

15:56:29 <tlebo> (It's been a while since I've dug through OPMO - where's the best summary?)

Timothy Lebo: (It's been a while since I've dug through OPMO - where's the best summary?)

15:56:35 <GK> ... incremental updates

... incremental updates

15:56:41 <GK> ... editorial

... editorial

15:56:48 <satya> @Tim: http://openprovenance.org/model/opmo

Satya Sahoo: @Tim: http://openprovenance.org/model/opmo

15:57:28 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:57:34 <GK> ... w.r.t. incremental updates:  How to get provenance information incrementally?  Explaining fow to deal with large amounts of provenance?

... w.r.t. incremental updates: How to get provenance information incrementally? Explaining fow to deal with large amounts of provenance?

15:58:28 <tlebo> @satya thanks!

Timothy Lebo: @satya thanks!

15:58:31 <GK> Luc: do you mean this will be ready by next week?

Luc Moreau: do you mean this will be ready by next week?

15:58:50 <GK> Paul: I think we can manage that

Paul Groth: I think we can manage that

15:58:57 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:59:11 <GK> ACTION Pau: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week

ACTION Pau: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week

15:59:11 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Pau

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - Pau

15:59:27 <GK> ACTION pgroth: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week

ACTION pgroth: drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week

15:59:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week [on Paul Groth - due 2011-11-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-42 - Drive new release of PAQ to WG for next week [on Paul Groth - due 2011-11-10].

15:59:50 <GK> Topic: PROV-DM

5. PROV-DM

Summary: The WG recorded three proposals that were approved by email vote during the week. A revision of the document incorporating the recent proposals (and further to be voted on) is going to be produced by the editors.

<luc> Summary: The WG recorded three proposals that were approved by email vote during the week. A revision of the document incorporating the recent proposals (and further to be voted on) is going to be produced by the editors.
15:59:51 <Luc> Accepted: Rename 'Entity Expression' into 'Entity Record'; similarly, rename 'XXX Expression' into 'XXX Record'.

RESOLVED: Rename 'Entity Expression' into 'Entity Record'; similarly, rename 'XXX Expression' into 'XXX Record'.

16:00:43 <Luc> Accepted: Attributes are a necessary part of prov-dm. Attribute-value pairs can be optionally included in Entity Expressions and Activity Expressions.

RESOLVED: Attributes are a necessary part of prov-dm. Attribute-value pairs can be optionally included in Entity Expressions and Activity Expressions.

16:00:57 <dgarijo> The definition from the incubator: Provenance of a resource is a record that describes entities and processes involved in producing and delivering or otherwise influencing that resource. Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducibility.

Daniel Garijo: The definition from the incubator: Provenance of a resource is a record that describes entities and processes involved in producing and delivering or otherwise influencing that resource. Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducibility.

16:01:32 <GK> Luc: Proposal on attributes - attributes are useful for interop with other provenance representations

Luc Moreau: Proposal on attributes - attributes are useful for interop with other provenance representations

16:02:09 <GK> ... questions about constraints associated with attributes; propose to remove these from the data model

... questions about constraints associated with attributes; propose to remove these from the data model

16:02:34 <GK> ... we may revisit entity constraints in context of semantics

... we may revisit entity constraints in context of semantics

16:02:39 <Luc> Accepted: Constraints related to attributes will be dropped: (derivation-attributes, use-attributes, generation-affects-attributes)

RESOLVED: Constraints related to attributes will be dropped: (derivation-attributes, use-attributes, generation-affects-attributes)

16:03:28 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

16:03:40 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:03:46 <GK> Luc: second proposal: will not enter into detail of what attributes are "characterizing"

Luc Moreau: second proposal: will not enter into detail of what attributes are "characterizing"

16:04:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:04:19 <GK> ... will start of document rev with all accepted proposals

... will start on document rev with all accepted proposals

16:04:24 <GK> s/of/on/
16:04:30 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:04:46 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

16:04:48 <Zakim> -Yogesh_Simmhan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh_Simmhan

16:04:50 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:04:50 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

16:04:51 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:04:52 <GK> End of meeting.

End of meeting.

16:04:53 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:04:55 <Zakim> -??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17

16:04:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a]

16:04:57 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

16:04:58 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

16:05:02 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:05:08 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:05:19 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.633.aaaa

16:05:29 <Zakim> -??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P27

16:05:41 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

16:05:41 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

16:06:06 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, set log public

16:06:10 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:06:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-minutes.html Luc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-prov-minutes.html Luc

16:06:16 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon

Luc Moreau: trackbot, end telcon



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