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OWL Working Group

Minutes of 17 September 2008

Present
Martin Dzbor, Alan Ruttenberg, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Ivan Herman, Rinke Hoekstra, Markus Krötzsch, Michael Schneider, Peter Patel-Schneider, Jeff Pan, Sandro Hawke, Boris Motik, Jie Bao, Michael Smith, Uli Sattler, Zhe Wu, Achille Fokoue
Regrets
Elisa Kendall
Chair
Alan Ruttenberg
Scribe
Jeff Pan
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Previous Minutes (10 September) accepted link
  2. Publish Syntax, DL Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Mapping-to-RDF, and XML-Serialization soon (eg Sept 24) (probably with Profiles), -- subject to minor editorial changes, changes to the editors/contribs/authors information, and the titles. These are ordinary WDs (and FPWD for RDF-Based Semantics). link
  3. Resolve {{Issue|140}} as postponed (as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html) link
  4. Close {{Issue|71}} as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html link
Topics
00:00:00 <JeffP> PRESENT: MartinD, Alan_Ruttenberg, bcuencagrau, Ivan, Rinke, MarkusK, m_schnei, pfps, JeffP, Sandro, bmotik, baojie, msmith, uli, Zhe, Achille
00:00:00 <JeffP> REGRETS: Elisa Kendall
00:00:00 <JeffP> CHAIR: Alan_Ruttenberg
16:39:23 <JeffP> JeffP has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.09.17/Agenda

Jeff Pan: JeffP has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.09.17/Agenda

16:39:49 <JeffP> Zakim, this will be owlwg

Jeff Pan: Zakim, this will be owlwg

16:39:49 <Zakim> ok, JeffP; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, JeffP; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

16:40:12 <JeffP> ScribeNick: JeffP

(Scribe set to Jeff Pan)

16:59:36 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started

(No events recorded for 19 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started

17:05:23 <JeffP> Topic: Admin

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

1. Admin

17:06:26 <Rinke> they look ok to me

Rinke Hoekstra: they look ok to me

17:06:27 <JeffP> PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (10 September)

PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (10 September)

17:06:43 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1

17:06:46 <MarkusK> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1

17:06:47 <MartinD> +1

Martin Dzbor: +1

17:06:53 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1

17:07:04 <JeffP> RESOLVED:  Previous Minutes (10 September) accepted

RESOLVED: Previous Minutes (10 September) accepted

17:07:16 <JeffP> SubTopic: Action items status

1.1. Action items status

17:07:54 <JeffP> SubTopic: Due and overdue Actions

1.2. Due and overdue Actions

17:08:07 <JeffP> SubSubTopic: {{Action|172}} Develop list of possible conflicts between XML Schema datatypes and OWL datatypes with valuespace reasoning / Achille Fokoue
1.2.1. {{Action|172}} Develop list of possible conflicts between XML Schema datatypes and OWL datatypes with valuespace reasoning / Achille Fokoue
17:08:16 <JeffP> {{Action|172}} completed

{{Action|172}} completed

17:08:42 <JeffP> {{Action|189}} Review RDF Mapping / Alan Ruttenberg  completed

{{Action|189}} Review RDF Mapping / Alan Ruttenberg completed

17:09:18 <JeffP> {{Action|202}}?

{{Action|202}}?

17:09:23 <JeffP> SubTopic: Reviewing

1.3. Reviewing

17:09:44 <bcuencagrau> Maybe I will go

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Maybe I will go

17:09:53 <JeffP> SubTopic: Fourth Face-to-Face (F2F) Meeting

1.4. Fourth Face-to-Face (F2F) Meeting

17:10:12 <JeffP> alanr: anyone in the telecon who will come but not signed up yet

Alan Ruttenberg: anyone in the telecon who will come but not signed up yet

17:10:29 <JeffP> Achille: will be able to come

Achille Fokoue: will be able to come

17:11:05 <JeffP> Topic: Proposal to publish Public Working Drafts (15 minutes)

2. Proposal to publish Public Working Drafts (15 minutes)

17:11:12 <Achille> Achille: I am not sure yet if I will come, I will  know for sure by the end of this week. I hope I could make it

Achille Fokoue: I am not sure yet if I will come, I will know for sure by the end of this week. I hope I could make it [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ]

17:12:06 <JeffP> alanr: chairs are considering the editor lists for the drafts

Alan Ruttenberg: chairs are considering the editor lists for the drafts

17:12:24 <JeffP> ... will be contacting people during the week

... will be contacting people during the week

17:13:04 <JeffP> ... now we need to decide whether to publish the drafts now or later?

... now we need to decide whether to publish the drafts now or later?

17:13:33 <sandro> alan: may be minor editorial changes before publication, editors/contributors will change before pub, title may change....

Alan Ruttenberg: may be minor editorial changes before publication, editors/contributors will change before pub, title may change.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:13:47 <JeffP> sandro: will we decide the title after the re-publish?

Sandro Hawke: will we decide the title after the re-publish?

17:15:04 <JeffP> JeffP: do we include Profiles?

Jeff Pan: do we include Profiles?

17:15:08 <JeffP> alanr: no

Alan Ruttenberg: no

17:15:10 <alanr> ack Ivan

Alan Ruttenberg: ack Ivan

17:15:28 <JeffP> Ivan: is that a Last Call working draft?

Ivan Herman: is that a Last Call working draft?

17:15:30 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish Syntax, DL Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Mapping-to-RDF, and XML-Serialization soon (eg Sept 24) (probably with Profiles), -- subject to minor editorial changes, changes to the editors/contribs/authors information, and the titles.    These are ordinary WDs (and FPWD for RDF-Based Semantics).

PROPOSED: Publish Syntax, DL Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Mapping-to-RDF, and XML-Serialization soon (eg Sept 24) (probably with Profiles), -- subject to minor editorial changes, changes to the editors/contribs/authors information, and the titles. These are ordinary WDs (and FPWD for RDF-Based Semantics).

17:16:09 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

17:16:16 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1

17:16:18 <uli> can hear, but not understand

Uli Sattler: can hear, but not understand

17:16:33 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

17:16:34 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1

17:16:35 <MarkusK> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1

17:16:36 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1

17:16:36 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

17:16:37 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1

17:16:38 <MartinD> +1

Martin Dzbor: +1

17:16:38 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1

17:16:38 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

17:16:39 <baojie> =1

Jie Bao: =1

17:16:42 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1

17:16:43 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C)

17:16:49 <Zhe> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE)

17:16:49 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 (C&P)

17:16:49 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM)

17:16:49 <Rinke> +1  (UvA)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (UvA)

17:16:50 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI)

17:16:52 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford)

17:16:53 <uli> +1 (Manchester)

Uli Sattler: +1 (Manchester)

17:16:54 <bcuencagrau> +1 (Oxford)

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 (Oxford)

17:16:58 <alanr> +1 (science commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (science commons)

17:17:00 <baojie> +1 (RPI)

Jie Bao: +1 (RPI)

17:17:10 <JeffP> +1 (Aberdeen)

+1 (Aberdeen)

17:17:24 <alanr> pfps: +1 (Alcatel-Lucent)

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 (Alcatel-Lucent) [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ]

17:17:42 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish Syntax, DL Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Mapping-to-RDF, and XML-Serialization soon (eg Sept 24) (probably with Profiles), -- subject to minor editorial changes, changes to the editors/contribs/authors information, and the titles.    These are ordinary WDs (and FPWD for RDF-Based Semantics).

RESOLVED: Publish Syntax, DL Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Mapping-to-RDF, and XML-Serialization soon (eg Sept 24) (probably with Profiles), -- subject to minor editorial changes, changes to the editors/contribs/authors information, and the titles. These are ordinary WDs (and FPWD for RDF-Based Semantics).

17:18:10 <JeffP> Topic: Publish soon?

3. Publish soon?

17:19:26 <JeffP> sandro: we should discuss the titles again

Sandro Hawke: we should discuss the titles again

17:19:29 <m_schnei> I think we should not say "model-theoretic", it's a very technical aspect

Michael Schneider: I think we should not say "model-theoretic", it's a very technical aspect

17:19:47 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0177.html

Sandro Hawke: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0177.html

17:20:08 <sandro> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0178.html reply with OWL 1 versions

Sandro Hawke: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0178.html reply with OWL 1 versions

17:20:44 <alanr> Direct Model-Theoretic Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: Direct Model-Theoretic Semantics

17:20:49 <alanr> RDF-Compatible Model-Theoretic Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: RDF-Compatible Model-Theoretic Semantics

17:21:03 <JeffP> alanr: could you explain it a bit  sandro?

Alan Ruttenberg: could you explain it a bit sandro?

17:21:05 <m_schnei> I never understood this "direct" MT semantics

Michael Schneider: I never understood this "direct" MT semantics

17:21:41 <JeffP> sandro: ...

Sandro Hawke: ...

17:22:01 <m_schnei> +1 to "DL-Semantics"

Michael Schneider: +1 to "DL-Semantics"

17:22:02 <JeffP> ivan: Model-Theoretic Semantics might be too complext

Ivan Herman: Model-Theoretic Semantics might be too complext

17:22:10 <JeffP> ... while DL semantics seems to be fine

... while DL semantics seems to be fine

17:22:24 <sandro> sandro: "model-theoretic" is noise, "RDF-Compatible" is incorrect, "Direct" is kind of meaningless.

Sandro Hawke: "model-theoretic" is noise, "RDF-Compatible" is incorrect, "Direct" is kind of meaningless. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:22:28 <JeffP> ... RDF-based semantics also ok

... RDF-based semantics also ok

17:22:42 <uli> I am with Sandro

Uli Sattler: I am with Sandro

17:22:50 <Rinke> I am with Ivan

Rinke Hoekstra: I am with Ivan

17:22:54 <ivan> DL Semantics, RDF Based Semantics

Ivan Herman: DL Semantics, RDF Based Semantics

17:22:55 <alanr>  Semantics of OWL DL, EL, and QL

Alan Ruttenberg: Semantics of OWL DL, EL, and QL

17:22:55 <alanr>      Semantics of OWL Full and RL

Alan Ruttenberg: Semantics of OWL Full and RL

17:23:06 <m_schnei> +1 to ivan's proposal

Michael Schneider: +1 to ivan's proposal

17:23:11 <JeffP> Why don't we have one single Semantic Document???

Why don't we have one single Semantic Document???

17:23:30 <uli> I quite like Alan's suggestion

Uli Sattler: I quite like Alan's suggestion

17:23:31 <sandro> Primary Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

Sandro Hawke: Primary Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

17:23:52 <m_schnei> +1 to separate

Michael Schneider: +1 to separate

17:23:55 <Zhe> ivan, could you type out your proposal?

Zhe Wu: ivan, could you type out your proposal?

17:23:56 <ivan> ack ivan

Ivan Herman: ack ivan

17:23:56 <JeffP> alanr: having a single semantics document is also an option

Alan Ruttenberg: having a single semantics document is also an option

17:24:15 <m_schnei> what is a "primary" semantics?

Michael Schneider: what is a "primary" semantics?

17:24:19 <JeffP> ... althought some of the editors wanted to make it separate

... althought some of the editors wanted to make it separate

17:24:48 <JeffP> ivan: having two documents should be ok

Ivan Herman: having two documents should be ok

17:24:58 <alanr> ack baojie

Alan Ruttenberg: ack baojie

17:25:01 <uli> Ivan, the DL semantics could equally be called "Standard FOL semantics"

Uli Sattler: Ivan, the DL semantics could equally be called "Standard FOL semantics"

17:25:11 <uli> ...rather than "DL semantics"

Uli Sattler: ...rather than "DL semantics"

17:25:29 <JeffP> Jie: a question for Michael -

Jie Bao: a question for Michael -

17:25:36 <sandro> uli, are you saying it's not a Description Logic?

Sandro Hawke: uli, are you saying it's not a Description Logic?

17:25:39 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me

17:25:39 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should no longer be muted

17:25:48 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

17:25:48 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

17:25:54 <uli> sandro, the semantics isn't DL specific

Uli Sattler: sandro, the semantics isn't DL specific

17:26:18 <JeffP> ... do the two semantics lead to the same results?

... do the two semantics lead to the same results?

17:26:57 <JeffP> m_schnei: ...

Michael Schneider: ...

17:27:28 <JeffP> sandro: when I talked to Ian, I suggested Primary

Sandro Hawke: when I talked to Ian, I suggested Primary

17:27:50 <JeffP> ... Ian said the RDF one is really a reimplementation of the FOL one

... Ian said the RDF one is really a reimplementation of the FOL one

17:27:54 <m_schnei> actually, the DL semantics guided the /development/ of the Full Semantics

Michael Schneider: actually, the DL semantics guided the /development/ of the Full Semantics

17:27:59 <JeffP> ... I agree with Ian on that

... I agree with Ian on that

17:28:28 <JeffP> ivan: I don't like that, ...

Ivan Herman: I don't like that, ...

17:28:35 <sandro> In English, "Primary" does not mean better.

Sandro Hawke: In English, "Primary" does not mean better.

17:28:48 <sandro> It just mean "first".   Which often means it's not as good.

Sandro Hawke: It just mean "first". Which often means it's not as good.

17:29:10 <JeffP> alanr: if the two semantics disagree, we need to decide what to do

Alan Ruttenberg: if the two semantics disagree, we need to decide what to do

17:30:06 <sandro> Rinke: "Semantics" and "RDF-Based Semantics"

Rinke Hoekstra: "Semantics" and "RDF-Based Semantics" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:30:15 <alanr> ack bcuencagrau

Alan Ruttenberg: ack bcuencagrau

17:30:17 <m_schnei> I think the stress on "model-theoretic" was that there were two kinds of semantics in DAML-OIL

Michael Schneider: I think the stress on "model-theoretic" was that there were two kinds of semantics in DAML-OIL

17:30:32 <sandro> Compromise position --- "Direct Semantics" and "RDF-Based Semantics"

Sandro Hawke: Compromise position --- "Direct Semantics" and "RDF-Based Semantics"

17:30:32 <JeffP> bcuencagrau: what is wrong with the OWL 1.0 way

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: what is wrong with the OWL 1.0 way

17:30:56 <ivan> +1 to sandro

Ivan Herman: +1 to sandro

17:30:57 <JeffP> sandro: how about Direct and RDF-based

Sandro Hawke: how about Direct and RDF-based

17:31:35 <JeffP> alanr: shrawpoll ...

Alan Ruttenberg: shrawpoll ...

17:31:56 <alanr> Model-Theoretic Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: Model-Theoretic Semantics

17:31:56 <alanr> RDF-Based Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: RDF-Based Semantics

17:31:58 <alanr> 1

Alan Ruttenberg: 1

17:32:01 <alanr> 2

Alan Ruttenberg: 2

17:32:07 <alanr> Semantics of OWL DL, EL, and QL

Alan Ruttenberg: Semantics of OWL DL, EL, and QL

17:32:07 <alanr>      Semantics of OWL Full and RL

Alan Ruttenberg: Semantics of OWL Full and RL

17:32:11 <alanr> 2)

Alan Ruttenberg: 3)

17:32:20 <ivan> s/2)/3)/
17:32:21 <alanr> First Order Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: First Order Semantics

17:32:26 <alanr> Primary Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: Primary Semantics

17:32:30 <alanr> Direct Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: Direct Semantics

17:33:16 <msmith> rinke's suggestion was "semantics" and "rdf semantics", correct?  i.e., no qualifier at all for the DL semantics

Michael Smith: rinke's suggestion was "semantics" and "rdf semantics", correct? i.e., no qualifier at all for the DL semantics

17:33:22 <Rinke> yes

Rinke Hoekstra: yes

17:33:30 <alanr> Direct Model-Theoretic Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: Direct Model-Theoretic Semantics

17:33:30 <alanr> * RDF-Compatible Model-Theoretic Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: * RDF-Compatible Model-Theoretic Semantics

17:33:36 <bcuencagrau> yes

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: yes

17:33:38 <sandro> 1 - Model-Theoretic Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

Sandro Hawke: 1 - Model-Theoretic Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

17:33:38 <sandro> 2 - Semantics of OWL DL, EL, and QL ;   Semantics of OWL Full and RL

Sandro Hawke: 2 - Semantics of OWL DL, EL, and QL ; Semantics of OWL Full and RL

17:33:38 <sandro> 3 - First Order Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

Sandro Hawke: 3 - First Order Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

17:33:38 <sandro> 4 - Primary Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

Sandro Hawke: 4 - Primary Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

17:33:38 <sandro> 5 - Direct Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

Sandro Hawke: 5 - Direct Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

17:33:39 <sandro> 6 - Direct Model-Theoretic Semantics; RDF-Compatible Model-Theoretic Semantics

Sandro Hawke: 6 - Direct Model-Theoretic Semantics; RDF-Compatible Model-Theoretic Semantics

17:33:40 <baojie> +1 to Rinke's proposal

Jie Bao: +1 to Rinke's proposal

17:33:46 <m_schnei> Is "DL Semantics" out ?

Michael Schneider: Is "DL Semantics" out ?

17:33:53 <Rinke> 7- Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

Rinke Hoekstra: 7- Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

17:34:05 <sandro> 7 - DL Semantics;  RDF-Based Semantics

Sandro Hawke: 7 - DL Semantics; RDF-Based Semantics

17:34:11 <alanr> + the ones you would like

Alan Ruttenberg: + the ones you would like

17:34:18 <alanr> + likes - wonts

Alan Ruttenberg: + likes - wonts

17:34:19 <Rinke> sure

Rinke Hoekstra: sure

17:34:19 <sandro> 8 - Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

Sandro Hawke: 8 - Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics

17:34:50 <bcuencagrau> +5,6 -2,3,4

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +5,6 -2,3,4

17:35:00 <baojie> +8

Jie Bao: +8

17:35:05 <Achille> +1 +6  -4

Achille Fokoue: +1 +6 -4

17:35:13 <sandro> I like 2, 4, 5;   dislike 1, 6, 8;  Favorite: 5

Sandro Hawke: I like 2, 4, 5; dislike 1, 6, 8; Favorite: 5

17:35:13 <m_schnei> +7, -3,4,5

Michael Schneider: +7, -3,4,5

17:35:33 <ivan> Like 5, 7,; do not like 4, 2; favourite 5

Ivan Herman: Like 5, 7,; do not like 4, 2; favourite 5

17:35:33 <JeffP> JeffP: +6

Jeff Pan: +6

17:35:33 <msmith> +(8,7) -(2,3)

Michael Smith: +(8,7) -(2,3)

17:35:36 <Zhe> + 6 8, -4 5

Zhe Wu: + 6 8, -4 5

17:35:36 <Rinke> + 8,5 - 1,4,6

Rinke Hoekstra: + 8,5 - 1,4,6

17:35:37 <MartinD> +3,8  -4,5,6

Martin Dzbor: +3,8 -4,5,6

17:35:45 <bmotik> + to 1, 3, 4, 5, 6; - to 2, 7, 8

Boris Motik: + to 1, 3, 4, 5, 6; - to 2, 7, 8

17:36:23 <JeffP> alanr: we should review this and discuss this in mailing list, so that we will have a vote next week

Alan Ruttenberg: we should review this and discuss this in mailing list, so that we will have a vote next week

17:36:32 <m_schnei> OWL Full is first order, too, even if it doesn't look this way

Michael Schneider: OWL Full is first order, too, even if it doesn't look this way

17:36:37 <JeffP> Topic: Status reports: Other documents

4. Status reports: Other documents

17:36:39 <uli> sorry, I got thrown out - i will vote again

Uli Sattler: sorry, I got thrown out - i will vote again

17:37:43 <JeffP> SubTopic: Conformance and Test Cases

4.1. Conformance and Test Cases

17:38:12 <JeffP> SubTopic: Profiles

4.2. Profiles

17:38:29 <JeffP> alanr: Profiles seems to be in a good shape

Alan Ruttenberg: Profiles seems to be in a good shape

17:39:17 <JeffP> msmith: ...

Michael Smith: ...

17:39:34 <JeffP> alanr: could you draft something and add to the test case doc?

Alan Ruttenberg: could you draft something and add to the test case doc?

17:39:34 <ivan> +1 to proposal

Ivan Herman: +1 to proposal

17:39:39 <JeffP> msmith: ok

Michael Smith: ok

17:39:40 <msmith> action: msmith to add an editor's note to test and conformance document re: disposition of test cases

ACTION: msmith to add an editor's note to test and conformance document re: disposition of test cases

17:39:40 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - msmith

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - msmith

17:39:59 <msmith> action: smith to add an editor's note to test and conformance document re: disposition of test cases

ACTION: smith to add an editor's note to test and conformance document re: disposition of test cases

17:39:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-208 - Add an editor's note to test and conformance document re: disposition of test cases [on Michael Smith - due 2008-09-24].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-208 - Add an editor's note to test and conformance document re: disposition of test cases [on Michael Smith - due 2008-09-24].

17:40:20 <msmith> +1000 on profiles

Michael Smith: +1000 on profiles

17:40:25 <ivan> :-)

Ivan Herman: :-)

17:40:40 <Rinke> +1 on +1000 on profiles

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 on +1000 on profiles

17:40:50 <ivan> :-) :-)

Ivan Herman: :-) :-)

17:40:52 <uli> +  2  3 4 5  8;  -  6  7

Uli Sattler: + 2 3 4 5 8; - 6 7

17:41:19 <JeffP> alanr: assuming the reviewers say yes, shall we vote next week?

Alan Ruttenberg: assuming the reviewers say yes, shall we vote next week?

17:41:34 <JeffP> ... some expressed that is a good idea

... some expressed that is a good idea

17:42:59 <JeffP> alanr: JeffP, could you submit your review by this week?

Alan Ruttenberg: JeffP, could you submit your review by this week?

17:43:11 <JeffP> JeffP: will try to submit by next telecon

Jeff Pan: will try to submit by next telecon

17:43:14 <m_schnei> me

Michael Schneider: me

17:43:19 <bcuencagrau> I can

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: I can

17:43:31 <m_schnei> I had already said this in the past

Michael Schneider: I had already said this in the past

17:43:32 <JeffP> alanr: any one could review conformance?

Alan Ruttenberg: any one could review conformance?

17:43:35 <msmith> I will as well

Michael Smith: I will as well

17:43:51 <JeffP> ... it is a short doc

... it is a short doc

17:44:14 <bcuencagrau> Sure

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Sure

17:44:19 <JeffP> ... reviewers: m_schnei, bcuencagra, msmith

... reviewers: m_schnei, bcuencagra, msmith

17:44:22 <m_schnei> yes

Michael Schneider: yes

17:44:24 <msmith> action: smith to review conformance, due sept-21

ACTION: smith to review conformance, due sept-21

17:44:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-209 - Review conformance, due sept-21 [on Michael Smith - due 2008-09-24].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-209 - Review conformance, due sept-21 [on Michael Smith - due 2008-09-24].

17:45:02 <m_schnei> ACTION: m_schnei to review conformance, due sept-21

ACTION: m_schnei to review conformance, due sept-21

17:45:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-210 - Review conformance, due sept-21 [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-09-24].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-210 - Review conformance, due sept-21 [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-09-24].

17:45:57 <JeffP> SubTopic: Quick Reference Guide

4.3. Quick Reference Guide

17:46:18 <JeffP> Jie: folks are not sure about Manchester syntax

Jie Bao: folks are not sure about Manchester syntax

17:46:32 <JeffP> ... since it does not cover OWL Full ontologies

... since it does not cover OWL Full ontologies

17:46:52 <msmith> jie, the functional syntax does not support all owl full ontologies

Michael Smith: jie, the functional syntax does not support all owl full ontologies

17:47:00 <JeffP> ... and it is difference from the one we have (?) right now

... and it is difference from the one we have (?) right now

17:47:02 <msmith> nor does owlxml

Michael Smith: nor does owlxml

17:47:11 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should no longer be muted

17:47:48 <JeffP> ... the syntax we have right now is the RDF syntax

... the syntax we have right now is the RDF syntax

17:48:16 <JeffP> alanr: what is the status of the RDF syntax part right now?

Alan Ruttenberg: what is the status of the RDF syntax part right now?

17:48:17 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me

17:48:17 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: m_schnei should now be muted

17:48:35 <JeffP> Jie: the Profile part can be done in two weeks

Jie Bao: the Profile part can be done in two weeks

17:49:20 <JeffP> uli: will we have different Quick Guide for different people?

Uli Sattler: will we have different Quick Guide for different people?

17:50:05 <m_schnei> every syntax which supports property assertions and bNodes in all positions perfectly supports (extended) RDF :)

Michael Schneider: every syntax which supports property assertions and bNodes in all positions perfectly supports (extended) RDF :)

17:50:24 <JeffP> uli: Jie, could you illustrate the differences

Uli Sattler: Jie, could you illustrate the differences

17:50:33 <JeffP> Jie: ...

Jie Bao: ...

17:50:41 <JeffP> uli: any other differences?

Uli Sattler: any other differences?

17:51:05 <JeffP> Jie: again, it cannot express OWL Full ontologies

Jie Bao: again, it cannot express OWL Full ontologies

17:52:20 <JeffP> uli: this is only a quick reference, some of the detailed restrictions could be ignored in the reference

Uli Sattler: this is only a quick reference, some of the detailed restrictions could be ignored in the reference

17:52:44 <baojie> Yes, we need some M syntax guru on the M version

Jie Bao: Yes, we need some M syntax guru on the M version

17:53:36 <JeffP> ivan: on the RDF side, it is basically syntax independent

Ivan Herman: on the RDF side, it is basically syntax independent

17:53:48 <JeffP> ... I don't know which one more widely used

... I don't know which one more widely used

17:54:23 <JeffP> alanr: agree with uli that let the editors finish the RDF syntax part first

Alan Ruttenberg: agree with uli that let the editors finish the RDF syntax part first

17:54:32 <JeffP> then discuss further

then discuss further

17:54:43 <JeffP> SubTopic: Requirements

4.4. Requirements

17:54:55 <JeffP> alanr: anyone can comment on this?

Alan Ruttenberg: anyone can comment on this?

00:00:00 <msmith> m_schnei: I object to the chair's practice of polling for responses from specific WG members.  If I have an opinion that I want to share, I will do so.

Michael Schneider: I object to the chair's practice of polling for responses from specific WG members. If I have an opinion that I want to share, I will do so. [ Scribe Assist by Michael Smith ]

00:00:00 <msmith> pfps: I have objected to this practice in the past.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I have objected to this practice in the past. [ Scribe Assist by Michael Smith ]

00:00:00 <pfps> The previous comment is not from this meeting, instead it occured during the meeting of 24 September.  I also believe that Alan called on Michael directly, by name, and did not just do a general call for comments.

Peter Patel-Schneider: The previous comment is not from this meeting, instead it occured during the meeting of 24 September. I also believe that Alan called on Michael directly, by name, and did not just do a general call for comments.

17:55:15 <JeffP> Topic: Issues (50 minutes) - Address as many as possible during allocated time

(No events recorded for 1075 minutes)

5. Issues (50 minutes) - Address as many as possible during allocated time

17:55:27 <JeffP> SubTopic: {{Issue|140}} (Named Property Chains) per Ian's email

5.1. {{Issue|140}} (Named Property Chains) per Ian's email

17:55:38 <JeffP> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html

17:56:36 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve {{Issue|140}} as postponed (as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html)

PROPOSED: Resolve {{Issue|140}} as postponed (as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html)

17:56:39 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1

17:56:41 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1

17:56:44 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1

17:56:44 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

17:56:48 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1

17:56:48 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

17:56:48 <JeffP> +1

+1

17:56:49 <MarkusK> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1

17:56:50 <MartinD> +1

Martin Dzbor: +1

17:56:52 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1

17:56:55 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1

17:56:55 <msmith> 1

Michael Smith: 1

17:57:10 <alanr> pfps: +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ]

17:57:16 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

17:57:22 <sandro> RESOLVED: Resolve {{Issue|140}} as postponed (as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html)

RESOLVED: Resolve {{Issue|140}} as postponed (as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html)

17:57:35 <JeffP> SubTopic: {{Issue|71}} (datarange language range) per Boris's email

5.2. {{Issue|71}} (datarange language range) per Boris's email

17:57:44 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

Alan Ruttenberg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

17:57:45 <JeffP> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

17:58:13 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close {{Issue|71}} as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html

PROPOSED: Close {{Issue|71}} as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html

17:58:29 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

17:58:30 <bmotik> We can incorporate the changes before the draft -- I'll do it over the weekend

Boris Motik: We can incorporate the changes before the draft -- I'll do it over the weekend

17:58:31 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1

17:58:34 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1

17:58:36 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1

17:58:37 <MartinD> +1

Martin Dzbor: +1

17:58:41 <Rinke> that's the wrong link

Rinke Hoekstra: that's the wrong link

17:58:43 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1

17:58:44 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1

17:58:44 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1

17:58:45 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

17:58:51 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

Alan Ruttenberg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

17:59:03 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1

17:59:07 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close {{Issue|71}} as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

PROPOSED: Close {{Issue|71}} as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

17:59:08 <JeffP> +1

+1

17:59:12 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

17:59:19 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1

17:59:26 <sandro> +0 (not sure I get it)

Sandro Hawke: +0 (not sure I get it)

17:59:31 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

17:59:36 <alanr> pfps: +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ]

17:59:42 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close {{Issue|71}} as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

RESOLVED: Close {{Issue|71}} as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html

17:59:43 <bmotik> ACTION: bmotik2 to Implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} (before publishing the documents)

ACTION: bmotik2 to Implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} (before publishing the documents)

17:59:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-212 - Implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} (before publishing the documents) [on Boris Motik - due 2008-09-24].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-212 - Implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} (before publishing the documents) [on Boris Motik - due 2008-09-24].

18:00:26 <m_schnei> ACTION: on m_schnei to implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} in RDF Based Semantics (before publishing the documents)

ACTION: on m_schnei to implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} in RDF Based Semantics (before publishing the documents)

18:00:26 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - on

18:00:34 <m_schnei> ACTION: m_schnei to implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} in RDF Based Semantics (before publishing the documents)

ACTION: m_schnei to implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} in RDF Based Semantics (before publishing the documents)

18:00:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-213 - Implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} in RDF Based Semantics (before publishing the documents) [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-09-24].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-213 - Implement resolution of {{Issue|71}} in RDF Based Semantics (before publishing the documents) [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-09-24].

18:00:52 <JeffP> ivan: I prefer having the language patterns in RDF spec

Ivan Herman: I prefer having the language patterns in RDF spec

18:01:31 <JeffP> bmotik: we could progress with datatypes

Boris Motik: we could progress with datatypes

18:01:55 <m_schnei> I will at least /repeat/ the facet in the RDF Based Semantics

Michael Schneider: I will at least /repeat/ the facet in the RDF Based Semantics

18:01:58 <JeffP> ... I agree with you on having a separate doc and copy / paste later on

... I agree with you on having a separate doc and copy / paste later on

18:02:18 <JeffP> ivan: maybe you could add a editorial note

Ivan Herman: maybe you could add a editorial note

18:02:31 <JeffP> bmotik: ok

Boris Motik: ok

18:03:07 <JeffP> ivan: the point is the separate doc could be reusable for other purposes

Ivan Herman: the point is the separate doc could be reusable for other purposes

18:03:44 <JeffP> alanr: the choices are still open

Alan Ruttenberg: the choices are still open

18:04:43 <JeffP> m_schnei: seems that I will need to do something on the RDF semantics doc too

Michael Schneider: seems that I will need to do something on the RDF semantics doc too

18:04:44 <bmotik> I just added this sentence to rdf:text: "It is currently not clear whether this document will contain a definition of facets on rdf:text."

Boris Motik: I just added this sentence to rdf:text: "It is currently not clear whether this document will contain a definition of facets on rdf:text."

18:05:09 <bmotik> I can add a note to the Syntax document as well.

Boris Motik: I can add a note to the Syntax document as well.

18:05:12 <JeffP> ivan: I am fine with the note

Ivan Herman: I am fine with the note

18:05:38 <m_schnei> I will add the text to the RDF Based Semantics: "It is currently not clear whether the OWL DL Syntax will contain a definition of facets on rdf:text." :)

Michael Schneider: I will add the text to the RDF Based Semantics: "It is currently not clear whether the OWL DL Syntax will contain a definition of facets on rdf:text." :)

18:05:39 <JeffP> SubTopic: {{Issue|134}} Metamodel for OWL 2

5.3. {{Issue|134}} Metamodel for OWL 2

18:06:25 <JeffP> alanr: should we have metamodel in the rec or just leave it in a note

Alan Ruttenberg: should we have metamodel in the rec or just leave it in a note

18:06:50 <alanr> straw poll - worth doing work on the metamodel issue?

Alan Ruttenberg: straw poll - worth doing work on the metamodel issue?

18:07:06 <JeffP> bmotik: we already have metamodel in the spec

Boris Motik: we already have metamodel in the spec

18:07:21 <JeffP> ... so I don't understand the quesetion

... so I don't understand the quesetion

18:07:42 <uli> would it be more accessible, for example for visually impaired people?

Uli Sattler: would it be more accessible, for example for visually impaired people?

18:08:01 <JeffP> bmotik: I doubt it

Boris Motik: I doubt it

18:08:10 <JeffP> ... it is in an XML file

... it is in an XML file

18:08:18 <uli> thanks!

Uli Sattler: thanks!

18:08:38 <JeffP> bmotik: now it is normative

Boris Motik: now it is normative

18:08:42 <uli> apart from more work, would the XML have any impact?

Uli Sattler: apart from more work, would the XML have any impact?

18:09:40 <JeffP> ... will replace existing diagrams with ones from PeterH

... will replace existing diagrams with ones from PeterH

18:10:05 <JeffP> uli: would the XML have any impact?

Uli Sattler: would the XML have any impact?

18:10:13 <JeffP> ... or just additional work?

... or just additional work?

18:11:07 <JeffP> bmotik: people could generate metamodel transformation

Boris Motik: people could generate metamodel transformation

18:11:20 <JeffP> ... so as to make the spec more useful

... so as to make the spec more useful

18:11:41 <JeffP> ivan: how much work is needed?

Ivan Herman: how much work is needed?

18:12:30 <JeffP> bmotik: need to use some software to produce the diagram

Boris Motik: need to use some software to produce the diagram

18:13:24 <JeffP> ivan: there is still extra costs

Ivan Herman: there is still extra costs

18:13:44 <JeffP> ... I prefer making it a note

... I prefer making it a note

18:13:55 <JeffP> ... my innitial reaction only

... my innitial reaction only

18:14:13 <JeffP> bmotik: two possibilities: one as Appendix in some doc

Boris Motik: two possibilities: one as Appendix in some doc

18:14:58 <JeffP> ... one in a separate note

... one in a separate note

18:15:18 <JeffP> ... it is only a diagram

... it is only a diagram

18:15:33 <MarkusK> +1 to boris

Markus Krötzsch: +1 to boris

18:15:52 <JeffP> Achille: ok with the metamodel

Achille Fokoue: ok with the metamodel

18:16:03 <JeffP> ... but not sure note or rec

... but not sure note or rec

18:16:46 <uli> which 'mikel'?

Uli Sattler: which 'mikel'?

18:16:52 <ivan> :-)

Ivan Herman: :-)

18:19:04 <JeffP> bmotik: we could ask PeterH to upload it to the wiki

Boris Motik: we could ask PeterH to upload it to the wiki

18:19:16 <JeffP> ... it is an XML doc

... it is an XML doc

18:19:32 <MarkusK> there is a whitelist of allowed formats, I assume .xml is not there by default

Markus Krötzsch: there is a whitelist of allowed formats, I assume .xml is not there by default

18:19:58 <JeffP> alanr: any open source software that we could use?

Alan Ruttenberg: any open source software that we could use?

18:20:13 <JeffP> bmotik:don't know, maybe

Boris Motik: don't know, maybe

18:20:22 <JeffP> alanr: could you find out?

Alan Ruttenberg: could you find out?

18:20:27 <JeffP> bmotik: sure

Boris Motik: sure

18:20:50 <JeffP> SubTopic: {{Issue|137}} Table 4 in RDF mapping introduces incompatibility with OWL 1

5.4. {{Issue|137}} Table 4 in RDF mapping introduces incompatibility with OWL 1

18:22:39 <JeffP> alanr: it is not clear if RDF needs a import mechanism

Alan Ruttenberg: it is not clear if RDF needs a import mechanism

18:24:51 <JeffP> ivan: it would be helpful if I understand the motivation better

Ivan Herman: it would be helpful if I understand the motivation better

18:26:39 <JeffP> alan explains the context

alan explains the context

18:27:52 <JeffP> ivan: we will look into it seriously

Ivan Herman: we will look into it seriously

18:28:20 <JeffP> ... we need more discussions

... we need more discussions

18:28:29 <JeffP> sandro: agree

Sandro Hawke: agree



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