Meeting Record

OWL Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 04 April 2008

Seen

Achille Fokoue, Alan Ruttenberg, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Bijan Parsia, Boris Motik, Elisa Kendall, Evan Wallace, Evren Sirin, Ian Horrocks, Jeremy Carroll, Jie Bao, Joanne Luciano, Markus Krötzsch, Michael Smith, Michael Schneider, Peter Patel-Schneider, Rinke Hoekstra, Sandro Hawke, Uli Sattler, Unknown ekw, Unknown jjc, Unknown kendall, Unknown meetingRoom, Zhe Wu

Scribe

Bijan Parsia, Achille Fokoue, Evren Sirin

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

Close ISSUE-17 as resolved, saying we forbid any property punning, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf) with a note that the reason is that technically we don't know how to do it. NOTE that Boris doesn't mention AnnotationProperties here, but they are understood as being parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties link
Close ISSUE-65, ISSUE-68, ISSUE-89, and ISSUE-19 as resolved, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf), amended to include AnnotationProperties in parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties. link
resolve issue-86 as per proposal 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html; it is believed that this is the only place that this problem arises. link
Resolve ISSUE-94, introducing disjointProperties (and note that disjointClasses is already in OWL2), handled like allDifferentFrom was in OWL 1 link
resolve ISSUE-96, using owl:propertyDisjointWith for the binary case of disjoint properties link
Resolve ISSUE-3 and ISSUE-46, accepting Boris's proposal (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0008.html) only in terms of the syntax of bnodes, and open a new issue on the semantics of bnodes, including editorial note in owl2-syntax about semantics being still open. link
Close Issue-72 saying we are not committed to backward compatibility with respect to annotation semantics, given that the WG will attempt to improve annotation support in OWL 2 link

Topics

RDF Mapping
ISSUE-17
ISSUE-18
ISSUE-65
Issue-89 and Issue-19
Issue-66 & Issue-94
Issue-86
Issue 94: Issues surrounding roundtripping
Issue 96 OWL-1.1 vocabulary naming in RDF mapping is not consistent
Issue 3 & Issue 46 anonymous individuals / Unnamed Individual Restrictions
Issue 16 entity annotations
Issue 72 Annotation Semantics
Task Force Report: Imports and Versioning
Should we specify a Portable Location Override format?
Easy Keys

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00:54:11 <alanr> rrsagent, bookmark

Alan Ruttenberg: rrsagent, bookmark ←

00:54:11 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-owl-irc#T00-54-11

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-owl-irc#T00-54-11 ←

00:54:25 <alanr> rrsagent, make log public

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13:08:29 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be OWLWG

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be OWLWG ←

13:08:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see SW_OWL(F2F)9:00AM scheduled to start 8 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot-ng; I see SW_OWL(F2F)9:00AM scheduled to start 8 minutes ago ←

13:08:30 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: OWL Working Group Teleconference

13:08:30 <trackbot-ng> Date: 04 April 2008

13:08:38 <sandro> Zakim, room for 5 for 480 minutes?

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, room for 5 for 480 minutes? ←

13:08:40 <Zakim> ok, sandro; conference Team_(owl)13:08Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 480 minutes until 2108Z

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; conference Team_(owl)13:08Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 480 minutes until 2108Z ←

13:08:41 <jjc> DAY 2!

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: DAY 2! ←

13:10:17 <sandro> Ian: Thanks again to Clark & Parsia for dinner last night, and to NIST for local organizating.

Ian Horrocks: Thanks again to Clark & Parsia for dinner last night, and to NIST for local organizating. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:11:37 <bijan> scribenick: bijan

(Scribe set to Bijan Parsia)

13:12:45 <bijan> Topic: RDF Mapping

1. RDF Mapping

13:13:23 <bijan> IanH: First up is fixing a bunch of issues by eliminating data/object property punning. Boris has a lil presentation on a proposal.

Ian Horrocks: First up is fixing a bunch of issues by eliminating data/object property punning. Boris has a lil presentation on a proposal. ←

13:15:29 <bijan> boris: Two basic roots to many issues in the mapping: 1) object/data/annotation punning and 2) typing occurances of terms (2 gets driven by 1)

Boris Motik: Two basic roots to many issues in the mapping: 1) object/data/annotation punning and 2) typing occurances of terms (2 gets driven by 1) ←

13:16:00 <bijan> alanr: But we require typing in OWL 1.0?

Alan Ruttenberg: But we require typing in OWL 1.0? ←

13:16:20 <bijan> boris: But in 1.0 it's not quite worked out.

Boris Motik: But in 1.0 it's not quite worked out. ←

13:16:46 <bijan> [And in 1.0 you can get away with *global* typing whereas with punning you need *local* typing --- bijan]

[And in 1.0 you can get away with *global* typing whereas with punning you need *local* typing --- bijan] ←

13:17:04 <bijan> jjc: Do we need typing for annotations?

Unknown jjc: Do we need typing for annotations? ←

13:17:46 <bijan> boris: yes; and there is object/data punning in annotation properties (even in 1.0)

Boris Motik: yes; and there is object/data punning in annotation properties (even in 1.0) ←

13:18:49 <bijan> boris: Propsoal: disallow property punning and require a type for every (property) URI

Boris Motik: Propsoal: disallow property punning and require a type for every (property) URI ←

13:19:52 <bijan> boris: Changes to the specs. Use declarations in the struc spec/functional spec (but map them to type triples) (see slide 3 for details)

Boris Motik: Changes to the specs. Use declarations in the struc spec/functional spec (but map them to type triples) (see slide 3 for details) ←

13:20:06 <bijan> alan: Do we type ontology properties as well?

Alan Ruttenberg: Do we type ontology properties as well? ←

13:20:23 <bijan> boris: With the current ontology properties there's no need since we have a list of them.

Boris Motik: With the current ontology properties there's no need since we have a list of them. ←

13:20:46 <bijan> jjc: And that was deliberate...ontology properties were a closed set so you can just look for them.

Unknown jjc: And that was deliberate...ontology properties were a closed set so you can just look for them. ←

13:21:07 <bijan> m_schnei: What about typing vocabulary?

Michael Schneider: What about typing vocabulary? ←

13:21:26 <bijan> boris: I'm talking about at the level of the structural spec so no type triples

Boris Motik: I'm talking about at the level of the structural spec so no type triples ←

13:21:43 <bijan> m_schnei: I mean the typing in the quantifers, e.g., objectSomeValuesFrom

Michael Schneider: I mean the typing in the quantifers, e.g., objectSomeValuesFrom ←

13:21:46 <bijan> boris: getting to it

Boris Motik: getting to it ←

13:22:37 <bijan> jjc: What about typing inference?

Unknown jjc: What about typing inference? ←

13:23:50 <bijan> boris: I deal with that. But i think at the structural spec level we should require declaration. But what your are talking about is "repair" and we should allow that. But the tool should generate the type triples internally.

Boris Motik: I deal with that. But i think at the structural spec level we should require declaration. But what your are talking about is "repair" and we should allow that. But the tool should generate the type triples internally. ←

13:23:57 <bijan> bijan: are we specing the repair rules?

Bijan Parsia: are we specing the repair rules? ←

13:24:06 <bijan> chairs: We have a later agenda item on it.

Scribe problem: the name 'chairs' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown chairs: We have a later agenda item on it. ←

13:24:43 <sandro> boris: Have a separate notion of "repair" for using ontologies which omit declarations.

Boris Motik: Have a separate notion of "repair" for using ontologies which omit declarations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:26:02 <bijan> boris:UML diagrams stay the same. We augment the grammar for functional style syntax with some annotations indicating the required global type.

Boris Motik: UML diagrams stay the same. We augment the grammar for functional style syntax with some annotations indicating the required global type. ←

13:27:57 <bijan> ...this means that the diagrams match the grammar, but we don't have in the explicit syntax any typed terms but we do have productions that indicate what the type of the construct is (e.g., no typed terminals, but the non-terminals can be typed so there is not a large change from the current spec or apis)

...this means that the diagrams match the grammar, but we don't have in the explicit syntax any typed terms but we do have productions that indicate what the type of the construct is (e.g., no typed terminals, but the non-terminals can be typed so there is not a large change from the current spec or apis) ←

13:29:39 <bijan> Discussion about whether tools should add types in all files where there are missing types. A lot of discussion about whether to make this recommondation. This behavior is highly undesired for some people.

Discussion about whether tools should add types in all files where there are missing types. A lot of discussion about whether to make this recommondation. This behavior is highly undesired for some people. ←

13:30:10 <sandro> Sandro: the implication of "ontologies SHOULD put declarations at the top of the file" is "OWL tools SHOULD NOT use triples stores."       [[ or maybe not... ]]

Sandro Hawke: the implication of "ontologies SHOULD put declarations at the top of the file" is "OWL tools SHOULD NOT use triples stores." [[ or maybe not... ]] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:30:19 <sandro> Evan: "Suggested Practice"

Evan Wallace: "Suggested Practice" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:30:22 <bijan> Discussion is actually about whether to recommende putting htings at the tope of the store.

Discussion is actually about whether to recommende putting htings at the tope of the store. ←

13:31:11 <bijan> alan: Suggests adding  more context making clear that devianting from this advice is ok, but has costs.

Alan Ruttenberg: Suggests adding more context making clear that devianting from this advice is ok, but has costs. ←

13:31:13 <sandro> jjc: "declare before use"

Unknown jjc: "declare before use" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:31:21 <msmith> +1 to jeremy

Michael Smith: +1 to jeremy ←

13:31:28 <MarkusK> +1 to jeremy

Markus Krötzsch: +1 to jeremy ←

13:31:42 <sandro> q+ sort-order of triples in rdf serialzation

Sandro Hawke: q+ sort-order of triples in rdf serialzation ←

13:31:53 <m_schnei> what does "declare before use" mean in a *set* of axioms?

Michael Schneider: what does "declare before use" mean in a *set* of axioms? ←

13:32:13 <bijan> alan: Declare before use still suggests a per document bias.

Alan Ruttenberg: Declare before use still suggests a per document bias. ←

13:32:31 <MarkusK> "declare before use" refers to the serialisation, not to sets of axioms

Markus Krötzsch: "declare before use" refers to the serialisation, not to sets of axioms ←

13:33:08 <bijan> sandro: This falls into the "if you put triples in a particular order you can do well"

Sandro Hawke: This falls into the "if you put triples in a particular order you can do well" ←

13:33:33 <bijan> bijan: But we could incorporate this in the "nice serialization" stuff that I've suggested we offer earlier.

Bijan Parsia: But we could incorporate this in the "nice serialization" stuff that I've suggested we offer earlier. ←

13:33:47 <sandro> wide acclaim to bijan there.

Sandro Hawke: wide acclaim to bijan there. ←

13:34:28 <bijan> boris: Changes to RDF mapping; this fixes tons of problems, e.g., non-mon gone, remove duplicate vocabualry etc.

Boris Motik: Changes to RDF mapping; this fixes tons of problems, e.g., non-mon gone, remove duplicate vocabualry etc. ←

13:35:02 <bijan> boris: We should make clear that repair isn't part of the spec....type validation is based on the explicit set of triples

Boris Motik: We should make clear that repair isn't part of the spec....type validation is based on the explicit set of triples ←

13:35:15 <sandro> boris: (and agreed by JJC loudly)  the doc should be clear you don't do RDFS reasoning around declarations

Boris Motik: (and agreed by JJC loudly) the doc should be clear you don't do RDFS reasoning around declarations [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:35:35 <bijan> boris: "declaredAs" will go away in RDF

Boris Motik: "declaredAs" will go away in RDF ←

13:36:09 <bijan> boirs: Given cyclic imports and typing triples occuring anyway, the parsing algorithm has to be two pass.

Boris Motik: Given cyclic imports and typing triples occuring anyway, the parsing algorithm has to be two pass. ←

13:36:17 <bijan> s/boirs/boris/

13:36:31 <sandro> boris: parsing has to be two pass --- (1) imports closure, (2) look for declarations, etc.         The document should be more clear about this.

Boris Motik: parsing has to be two pass --- (1) imports closure, (2) look for declarations, etc. The document should be more clear about this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:36:32 <bijan> jjc: While we can express this, we shouldn't say it is *required*

Unknown jjc: While we can express this, we shouldn't say it is *required* ←

13:36:47 <sandro> JJC: "Streaming OWL-DL" by me --- you can do it in one pass.

Scribe problem: the name 'JJC' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown JJC: "Streaming OWL-DL" by me --- you can do it in one pass. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:36:56 <bijan> boris: yes, but I think *speccing* it as two pass will be clearer...obvious people can optimize better.

Boris Motik: yes, but I think *speccing* it as two pass will be clearer...obvious people can optimize better. ←

13:37:10 <sandro> JJC: so the spec should no say you MUST do it in two pass.

Unknown JJC: so the spec should no say you MUST do it in two pass. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:37:24 <sandro> alan: "Notes to Implementors"

Alan Ruttenberg: "Notes to Implementors" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:37:30 <bijan> alan: This is another notes to implementors. We should have an additional section

Alan Ruttenberg: This is another notes to implementors. We should have an additional section ←

13:37:53 <sandro> ian: Do we need an Implementor-Facing-Document  Task Force?   :-)   :-)   [[laughter]]

Ian Horrocks: Do we need an Implementor-Facing-Document Task Force? :-) :-) [[laughter]] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:38:24 <bijan> boris: importing files of different syntaxes?

Boris Motik: importing files of different syntaxes? ←

13:38:50 <bijan> ...But now we can formulate things at the object model so mixed imports (and typing) becomes clean.

...But now we can formulate things at the object model so mixed imports (and typing) becomes clean. ←

13:39:24 <bijan> boris: Changes to XML Syntax: Drop typed quantifiers as in the functional syntax. Regularizes all the syntaxes and makes the parsing (at a high level) exactly the same.

Boris Motik: Changes to XML Syntax: Drop typed quantifiers as in the functional syntax. Regularizes all the syntaxes and makes the parsing (at a high level) exactly the same. ←

13:39:25 <sandro> boris: by having declarations at the syntactic-object level, we are clear about how to handle import-closures which include OWL serialized in different syntaxes.

Boris Motik: by having declarations at the syntactic-object level, we are clear about how to handle import-closures which include OWL serialized in different syntaxes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:39:34 <sandro> (lots of nods)

Sandro Hawke: (lots of nods) ←

13:39:43 <bijan> jjc: secondes the proposal

Unknown jjc: secondes the proposal ←

13:40:22 <bijan> m_schnei: Can we defer some other issues?

Michael Schneider: Can we defer some other issues? ←

13:40:32 <bijan> Generally people wanted to do things on a case by case basis.

Generally people wanted to do things on a case by case basis. ←

13:41:07 <bijan> sandro: We can make decisions and if we find problems later then we can reopen the decision.

Sandro Hawke: We can make decisions and if we find problems later then we can reopen the decision. ←

13:42:00 <bijan> Topic: ISSUE-17

2. ISSUE-17

13:42:50 <bijan> IanH: This is a non-issue if we accept the boris proposal.

Ian Horrocks: This is a non-issue if we accept the boris proposal. ←

13:43:09 <bijan> ...Thus this issue is resolved by this proposal.

...Thus this issue is resolved by this proposal. ←

13:43:53 <bijan> jjc: One use case from the "Full/RDF" domain is dc:creator, but I don't believe it is address by punning so I don't think we harm that use case *more*.

Unknown jjc: One use case from the "Full/RDF" domain is dc:creator, but I don't believe it is address by punning so I don't think we harm that use case *more*. ←

13:44:38 <bijan> pfps: I'd like to mark that we don't agree with the lack of use cases.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'd like to mark that we don't agree with the lack of use cases. ←

13:45:14 <bijan> IanH: So we'll say that we technically don't know how to do it so we closed it.

Ian Horrocks: So we'll say that we technically don't know how to do it so we closed it. ←

13:46:22 <msmith> to alan, the dc use case is mentioned briefly at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Punning#Annotations_.28ObjectProperty_.E2.86.94_DatatypeProperty.29

Michael Smith: to alan, the dc use case is mentioned briefly at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Punning#Annotations_.28ObjectProperty_.E2.86.94_DatatypeProperty.29 ←

13:46:59 <bijan> ekw: about boris's proposal: The only place the proliferation of typed vocabulary occurs is in the struc spec?

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ekw: about boris's proposal: The only place the proliferation of typed vocabulary occurs is in the struc spec? ←

13:47:17 <bijan> boris: Yes.

Boris Motik: Yes. ←

13:47:31 <bijan> IanH: But only in non-terminals. Terminals are all type free.

Ian Horrocks: But only in non-terminals. Terminals are all type free. ←

13:47:55 <bijan> bijan: But that could impact the OMG UML mapping

Bijan Parsia: But that could impact the OMG UML mapping ←

13:48:02 <alanr> mike: search for creator on that page finds nothing

Michael Smith: search for creator on that page finds nothing [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←

13:48:09 <bijan> boris's proposal: http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf

boris's proposal: http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf ←

13:48:15 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-17 as resolved, saying we forbid any property punning, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf) with a note that the reason is that technically we don't know how to do it.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-17 as resolved, saying we forbid any property punning, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf) with a note that the reason is that technically we don't know how to do it. ←

13:48:29 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

13:48:31 <bijan> +1

+1 ←

13:48:32 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 ←

13:48:34 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford) ←

13:48:35 <MarkusK> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1 ←

13:48:35 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

13:48:36 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1 ←

13:48:37 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1 ←

13:48:38 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1 ←

13:48:38 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

13:48:39 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1 ←

13:48:40 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

13:48:42 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

13:48:43 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

13:48:47 <jjc> +1 (HP)

Unknown jjc: +1 (HP) ←

13:49:48 <pfps> +1 (ALU)

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 (ALU) ←

13:50:14 <sandro> NOTE that Boris doesn't mention AnnotationProperties here, but they are understood as being parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties

Sandro Hawke: NOTE that Boris doesn't mention AnnotationProperties here, but they are understood as being parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties ←

13:51:05 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-17 as resolved, saying we forbid any property punning, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf) with a note that the reason is that technically we don't know how to do it.   NOTE that Boris doesn't mention AnnotationProperties here, but they are understood as being parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-17 as resolved, saying we forbid any property punning, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf) with a note that the reason is that technically we don't know how to do it. NOTE that Boris doesn't mention AnnotationProperties here, but they are understood as being parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties ←

13:51:29 <msmith> alanr, search for dublin core

Michael Smith: alanr, search for dublin core ←

13:51:31 <bijan> Topic: ISSUE-18

3. ISSUE-18

13:52:18 <bijan> jjc: I'm not sure who did ISSUE-18 though my name is on it.

Unknown jjc: I'm not sure who did ISSUE-18 though my name is on it. ←

13:52:30 <bijan> ...So I withdraw it.

...So I withdraw it. ←

13:52:52 <sandro> ISSUE-18 is closed, JJC doesn't support it any more, no one else does either.

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-18 is closed, JJC doesn't support it any more, no one else does either. ←

13:52:56 <bijan> Topic: ISSUE-65

4. ISSUE-65

13:53:17 <bijan> IanH: The new proposal addresses this explicitly.

Ian Horrocks: The new proposal addresses this explicitly. ←

13:54:25 <sandro> Bijan: let's just merge ISSUE-65 into that previous resolution.

Bijan Parsia: let's just merge ISSUE-65 into that previous resolution. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:55:39 <bijan> jjc: I'm happy as long as after the edits the terms are actually fully reduced.

Unknown jjc: I'm happy as long as after the edits the terms are actually fully reduced. ←

13:55:43 <sandro> JJC: I expect that issue-65 will be addressed by Boris' proposal

Unknown JJC: I expect that ISSUE-65 will be addressed by Boris' proposal [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:56:08 <bijan> IanH: We can always revisit if things turn out unexpectedly.

Ian Horrocks: We can always revisit if things turn out unexpectedly. ←

13:56:18 <bijan> Issue-68

ISSUE-68 ←

13:56:46 <bijan> jjc: I believe the proposal addresses this, but obviously I need to check.

Unknown jjc: I believe the proposal addresses this, but obviously I need to check. ←

13:57:44 <bijan> Topic: Issue-89 and Issue-19

5. ISSUE-89 and ISSUE-19

13:57:52 <bijan> IanH: Proposal fixes this.

Ian Horrocks: Proposal fixes this. ←

13:59:17 <bijan> m_schnei: There is an issue. It's not clear but in OWL 1 some type triples are entailments and now if they have no semantics we have a backward compatibility issue.

Michael Schneider: There is an issue. It's not clear but in OWL 1 some type triples are entailments and now if they have no semantics we have a backward compatibility issue. ←

13:59:23 <bijan> boris: it's not about entailment.

Boris Motik: it's not about entailment. ←

13:59:55 <sandro> Matthew: Are declarations still regarded as Axioms?

Scribe problem: the name 'Matthew' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Matthew: Are declarations still regarded as Axioms? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:59:58 <sandro> Boris: Yes

Boris Motik: Yes [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:00:00 <bijan> jjc: The entailment still holds.

Unknown jjc: The entailment still holds. ←

14:00:30 <bijan> alan: There was some old wording saying that declarations don't have semantics.

Alan Ruttenberg: There was some old wording saying that declarations don't have semantics. ←

14:00:42 <bijan> boris: and it *doesn't* have semantics.

Boris Motik: and it *doesn't* have semantics. ←

14:02:39 <bijan> alan: Simple proposal: let's remove the wording (about no semantics) but leave things as it is

Alan Ruttenberg: Simple proposal: let's remove the wording (about no semantics) but leave things as it is ←

14:03:47 <bijan> markus: You cannot ask that something a subclass of thing you have to priorly said that it's a class, so in some sense it changes the semantics but not in the ordinary sense we mean when dropping an axiom.

Markus Krötzsch: You cannot ask that something a subclass of thing you have to priorly said that it's a class, so in some sense it changes the semantics but not in the ordinary sense we mean when dropping an axiom. ←

14:04:16 <bijan> pfps: Where do we *say* in the document that declarations have no semantics.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Where do we *say* in the document that declarations have no semantics. ←

14:04:20 <bijan> ...No where.

...No where. ←

14:05:43 <bijan> alan (strikes back): Finds some text that seems to be problematic.

alan (strikes back): Finds some text that seems to be problematic. ←

14:05:50 <bijan> pfps and jjc: that seems false

pfps and jjc: that seems false ←

14:06:10 <bijan> IanH: Ok, that's a separate issue and seems largely editorial.

Ian Horrocks: Ok, that's a separate issue and seems largely editorial. ←

14:06:22 <bijan> ekw: How do we handle this editorial/whatever issue.

Unknown ekw: How do we handle this editorial/whatever issue. ←

14:06:52 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-65, ISSUE-68, ISSUE-89, and ISSUE-19 as resolved, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf), amended to include AnnotationProperties in parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-65, ISSUE-68, ISSUE-89, and ISSUE-19 as resolved, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf), amended to include AnnotationProperties in parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties. ←

14:08:22 <bijan> m_schnei: What is the status of the semantics of declarations? I

Michael Schneider: What is the status of the semantics of declarations? I ←

14:08:29 <bijan> ...'m still confused.

...'m still confused. ←

14:10:46 <sandro> m_schnei: about the mapping of   c rdf:type owl:Class   ... it seems like there is a semantic difference here

Michael Schneider: about the mapping of c rdf:type owl:Class ... it seems like there is a semantic difference here [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:11:03 <sandro> bijan: I think this is a change to the presentation of the semantics, but not to their meaning.

Bijan Parsia: I think this is a change to the presentation of the semantics, but not to their meaning. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:11:29 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-65, ISSUE-68, ISSUE-89, and ISSUE-19 as resolved, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf), amended to include AnnotationProperties in parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties.

14:11:46 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford) ←

14:11:48 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1 ←

14:11:48 <jjc> +1 (HP)

Unknown jjc: +1 (HP) ←

14:11:49 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

14:11:52 <bijan> +1 (Manchester)

+1 (Manchester) ←

14:11:53 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU ←

14:11:54 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

14:11:55 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

14:11:57 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

14:11:57 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C) ←

14:11:57 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1 ←

14:11:58 <Zhe> +1 (Oracle)

Zhe Wu: +1 (Oracle) ←

14:12:01 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

14:12:06 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

14:12:12 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 (C&P) ←

14:12:55 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-65, ISSUE-68, ISSUE-89, and ISSUE-19 as resolved, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf), amended to include AnnotationProperties in parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties.

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-65, ISSUE-68, ISSUE-89, and ISSUE-19 as resolved, as per Boris' proposal (http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c89659$6d8508f0$2a12220a@wolf), amended to include AnnotationProperties in parallel to DataProperties and ObjectProperties. ←

14:13:46 <bijan> Topic: Issue-66 & Issue-94

6. ISSUE-66 & ISSUE-94

14:13:52 <kendall> I demand someone dial-in so that Mike and I didn't lug the conference phone up here for no reason; to this end, I shall dial-in if I have to! :>

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: I demand someone dial-in so that Mike and I didn't lug the conference phone up here for no reason; to this end, I shall dial-in if I have to! :> ←

14:14:10 <sandro> :-)

Sandro Hawke: :-) ←

14:14:38 <sandro> Think of all the poor reserved Zakim ports, sighing miserably because they have no purpose in life.

Sandro Hawke: Think of all the poor reserved Zakim ports, sighing miserably because they have no purpose in life. ←

14:15:07 <bijan> IanH: In the RDF Mapping boris added the following text: """More precisely, let O be any OWL 2 DL ontology in functional-style syntax, let RDF(O) the set of RDF triples obtained by transforming O into RDF triples as specified in Section 2, and let O' be the OWL 2 DL ontology in functional-style syntax obtained by applying the reverse-transformation from Section 3 to RDF(O); then, O and O' are logically equivalent (i.e., they have exactly the same set of models)."

Ian Horrocks: In the RDF Mapping boris added the following text: """More precisely, let O be any OWL 2 DL ontology in functional-style syntax, let RDF(O) the set of RDF triples obtained by transforming O into RDF triples as specified in Section 2, and let O' be the OWL 2 DL ontology in functional-style syntax obtained by applying the reverse-transformation from Section 3 to RDF(O); then, O and O' are logically equivalent (i.e., they have exactly the same set of models)." ←

14:15:07 <bijan> ""

"" ←

14:15:35 <bijan> IanH: This resolves the issue.

Ian Horrocks: This resolves the issue. ←

14:15:45 <bijan> jjc: I accept it resolves the issue, but it's editorially nasty.

Unknown jjc: I accept it resolves the issue, but it's editorially nasty. ←

14:16:46 <bijan> sandro: Let me understand: Roundtripping gives you the same models, but not necessarily the same syntactic mapping. It would be nice to mention this.

Sandro Hawke: Let me understand: Roundtripping gives you the same models, but not necessarily the same syntactic mapping. It would be nice to mention this. ←

14:17:57 <bijan> PROPOSAL: Resolve issue-19 by adding to the RDF Mapping the following text: "More precisely, let O be any OWL 2 DL ontology in functional-style syntax, let RDF(O) the set of RDF triples obtained by transforming O into RDF triples as specified in Section 2, and let O' be the OWL 2 DL ontology in functional-style syntax obtained by applying the reverse-transformation from Section 3 to RDF(O); then, O and O' are logically equivalent (i.e., they have exactly the same

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-66 by adding to the RDF Mapping the following text: "More precisely, let O be any OWL 2 DL ontology in functional-style syntax, let RDF(O) the set of RDF triples obtained by transforming O into RDF triples as specified in Section 2, and let O' be the OWL 2 DL ontology in functional-style syntax obtained by applying the reverse-transformation from Section 3 to RDF(O); then, O and O' are logically equivalent (i.e., they have exactly the same ←

14:17:57 <bijan>  set of models)."

set of models)." ←

14:18:30 <bijan> Achille: We've asserted this, but what's the status of proving it? Do we require a formal proof?

Achille Fokoue: We've asserted this, but what's the status of proving it? Do we require a formal proof? ←

14:18:50 <bijan> IanH: Formal proofs for mapping seem a bit different than formal proofs for semantics etc.

Ian Horrocks: Formal proofs for mapping seem a bit different than formal proofs for semantics etc. ←

14:19:22 <bijan> jjc: This resolution resolves things by making any falsity in the roundtripping a bug not a feature. How we detect and fix such bugs is a different issues.

Unknown jjc: This resolution resolves things by making any falsity in the roundtripping a bug not a feature. How we detect and fix such bugs is a different issues. ←

14:20:13 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford) ←

14:20:14 <bijan> IanH: The semantics equivalence claim in the profiles document has a different status

Ian Horrocks: The semantics equivalence claim in the profiles document has a different status ←

14:20:15 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM) ←

14:20:16 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

14:20:17 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU ←

14:20:20 <bijan> +1 (Manchester)

+1 (Manchester) ←

14:20:21 <jjc> +1 (HP)

Unknown jjc: +1 (HP) ←

14:20:22 <Zhe> +1 (Oracle)

Zhe Wu: +1 (Oracle) ←

14:20:22 <baojie> +1 (RPI)

Jie Bao: +1 (RPI) ←

14:20:22 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 (C&P) ←

14:20:23 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

14:20:25 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

14:20:25 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

14:20:26 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

14:20:28 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1 ←

14:20:30 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

14:20:33 <jluciano> +1 (MITRE)

Joanne Luciano: +1 (MITRE) ←

14:21:00 <sandro> +1 (W3C) understanding that various word-smithing may happen later, and it's really ISSUE-66.

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C) understanding that various word-smithing may happen later, and it's really ISSUE-66. ←

14:21:05 <bijan> s/issue-19/issue-66/

14:21:43 <bijan> Topic: Issue-86

7. ISSUE-86

14:22:28 <bijan> IanH: MikeS has a solution to mapping inverse property expressions: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html>

Ian Horrocks: MikeS has a solution to mapping inverse property expressions: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html> ←

14:23:10 <bijan> msmith: Instead of trying to use a bnode in property position, reverse the arguments.

Michael Smith: Instead of trying to use a bnode in property position, reverse the arguments. ←

14:24:01 <bijan> m_schnei: I have a solution and it's a more general problem. Inverse expressions are a symptom.

Michael Schneider: I have a solution and it's a more general problem. Inverse expressions are a symptom. ←

14:24:31 <msmith> m_schnei email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0281.html

Michael Smith: m_schnei email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0281.html ←

14:24:33 <bijan> ...The problem is more general...can we tackle the more general problem

...The problem is more general...can we tackle the more general problem ←

14:24:44 <bijan> boris: we should fix the concrete case.

Boris Motik: we should fix the concrete case. ←

14:25:15 <sandro> m_schnei: This solution is a hack.   Let's solve it properly, so that other s-p-o things are serialized in RDF consistently.

Michael Schneider: This solution is a hack. Let's solve it properly, so that other s-p-o things are serialized in RDF consistently. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:25:25 <sandro> bmotik: yes, it's a hack, but that's fine.

Boris Motik: yes, it's a hack, but that's fine. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:25:48 <m_schnei> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0281.html

Michael Schneider: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0281.html ←

14:25:50 <sandro> bijan: Also, RDF may change.  Let's not go to much effort to work around this (perhaps temporary) shortcoming of RDF.

Bijan Parsia: Also, RDF may change. Let's not go to much effort to work around this (perhaps temporary) shortcoming of RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:26:44 <sandro> pfps: msmith's solution is to make sure that on the RDF side we have no b-node there.   m_schnei's solution is if it's not a property name, then translate it to an object restriction.

Peter Patel-Schneider: msmith's solution is to make sure that on the RDF side we have no b-node there. m_schnei's solution is if it's not a property name, then translate it to an object restriction. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:27:14 <bijan> jjc: One problem with hasValue restrictions is that it uses a very expressive construct for a less expressive bit.

Unknown jjc: One problem with hasValue restrictions is that it uses a very expressive construct for a less expressive bit. ←

14:27:17 <sandro> jjc: introducting hasvalue restrictions is a problem, because as Uli pointed out yesterday, it confuses the expressivity of the ontology.

Unknown jjc: introducting hasvalue restrictions is a problem, because as Uli pointed out yesterday, it confuses the expressivity of the ontology. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:27:39 <bijan> IanH: And hits roundtripping hard.

Ian Horrocks: And hits roundtripping hard. ←

14:28:07 <bijan> Boris: It's a simple simple solution that fits in with the rdf etc. etc.

Boris Motik: It's a simple simple solution that fits in with the rdf etc. etc. ←

14:28:10 <sandro> bmotik: msmith's solution is so easy.   it fits well with rdf.   it doesn't introduce nominals.    (Uli: and it keeps the graph beautiful)   (Ian: It keeps the data part as data)

Boris Motik: msmith's solution is so easy. it fits well with rdf. it doesn't introduce nominals. (Uli: and it keeps the graph beautiful) (Ian: It keeps the data part as data) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:28:59 <sandro> m_schnei: Is it CERTAIN that this is the only case where this situation occurs?

Michael Schneider: Is it CERTAIN that this is the only case where this situation occurs? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:29:12 <sandro> Ian: YES.   If you discover otherwise, we will revisit this issue.

Ian Horrocks: YES. If you discover otherwise, we will revisit this issue. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:29:34 <bijan> m_schnei: My problem is that I dismissed it so, I didn't understand it.

Michael Schneider: My problem is that I dismissed it so, I didn't understand it. ←

14:29:55 <bijan> markus: If we encounter new problems, we'll have to revisit the hack anyway.

Markus Krötzsch: If we encounter new problems, we'll have to revisit the hack anyway. ←

14:30:21 <sandro> MarkusK: If some other occurance of this situation occurs, we'll have to come up with something.  we'll have a new issue, and we can apply that solution back to this, if necessary.

Markus Krötzsch: If some other occurance of this situation occurs, we'll have to come up with something. we'll have a new issue, and we can apply that solution back to this, if necessary. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:30:54 <sandro> Uli: This is not a hack.  It's standard re-writing for conjunctive queries.   There's nothing going wrong here, nothing weird here.

Uli Sattler: This is not a hack. It's standard re-writing for conjunctive queries. There's nothing going wrong here, nothing weird here. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:30:55 <bijan> Uli: It's not a hack...it's a standard technique, used in rewriting of conjunctive query, etc.

Uli Sattler: It's not a hack...it's a standard technique, used in rewriting of conjunctive query, etc. ←

14:31:00 <msmith> this was proposal #2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html

Michael Smith: this was proposal #2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html ←

15:06:40 <sandro> scribenick: Achille

(No events recorded for 35 minutes)

(Scribe set to Achille Fokoue)

15:06:55 <IanH> Proposed: resolve issue-86 as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html; it is believed that this is the only place that this problem arises.

PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-86 as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html; it is believed that this is the only place that this problem arises. ←

15:07:47 <IanH> Proposed: resolve issue-86 as per proposal 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html; it is believed that this is the only place that this problem arises.

PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-86 as per proposal 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html; it is believed that this is the only place that this problem arises. ←

15:07:59 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 (C&P) ←

15:08:01 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU ←

15:08:02 <bijan> +1 (Manchester)

Bijan Parsia: +1 (Manchester) ←

15:08:03 <jjc> +1 (HP)

Unknown jjc: +1 (HP) ←

15:08:04 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

15:08:04 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

15:08:04 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

15:08:05 <baojie> +1 (RPI)

Jie Bao: +1 (RPI) ←

15:08:06 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford) ←

15:08:06 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

+1 (IBM) ←

15:08:06 <Zhe> +1 (Oracle)

Zhe Wu: +1 (Oracle) ←

15:08:07 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

15:08:08 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

15:08:09 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1 ←

15:08:12 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

15:08:18 <sandro> +0 swapped out

Sandro Hawke: +0 swapped out ←

15:08:27 <jluciano> +1 (MITRE)

Joanne Luciano: +1 (MITRE) ←

15:08:46 <IanH> RESOLVED: resolve issue-86 as per proposal 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html; it is believed that this is the only place that this problem arises.

RESOLVED: resolve ISSUE-86 as per proposal 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0269.html; it is believed that this is the only place that this problem arises. ←

15:09:19 <Achille> topic: Issue 94: Issues surrounding roundtripping

8. ISSUE-94: Issues surrounding roundtripping

15:10:11 <sandro> issue 94 rejected / withdrawn.

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-94 rejected / withdrawn. ←

15:10:21 <Achille> alan: let's reject it

Alan Ruttenberg: let's reject it ←

15:10:26 <sandro> (as per boris and ian and alan)

Sandro Hawke: (as per boris and ian and alan) ←

15:11:01 <Achille> bijan: it might be nice to regularize it

Bijan Parsia: it might be nice to regularize it ←

15:11:11 <sandro> Bijan: It would be nice to regularize this

Bijan Parsia: It would be nice to regularize this [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:11:53 <sandro> peter: the only n-ary construct in OWL 1 was allDifferent

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: the only n-ary construct in OWL 1 was allDifferent [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:12:46 <sandro> bijan: so now we've discovered that there are lots of these....

Bijan Parsia: so now we've discovered that there are lots of these.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:12:49 <Achille> alan: do we want a resolution

Alan Ruttenberg: do we want a resolution ←

15:13:08 <Achille> bijan: if we reject it I will hjave another one with disjoint

Bijan Parsia: if we reject it I will hjave another one with disjoint ←

15:13:40 <sandro> ? PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-94, introducing disjointProperties

Sandro Hawke: ? PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-94, introducing disjointProperties ←

15:15:01 <jjc> Jeremy: Disjoint properties is N^2 without the special class AllDisjointProperties, this is one item to avoid an N^2 rule, so it is probably worth it.

Jeremy Carroll: Disjoint properties is N^2 without the special class AllDisjointProperties, this is one item to avoid an N^2 rule, so it is probably worth it. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc ] ←

15:15:02 <Achille> m_scheni: n-ary construct map to a lot of binary statement in rdf

Scribe problem: the name 'm_scheni' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown m_scheni: n-ary construct map to a lot of binary statement in rdf ←

15:15:33 <Achille> ... this is not very nice, It will address the problem of annotating n-ary constructs

... this is not very nice, It will address the problem of annotating n-ary constructs ←

15:15:46 <MarkusK> s /m_scheni/m_schnei/

Markus Krötzsch: s /m_scheni/m_schnei/ ←

15:16:16 <Achille> jjc: we are not solving the annotation issues in this metting

Unknown jjc: we are not solving the annotation issues in this metting ←

15:16:30 <sandro> jjc: reification-annotations got parked for furthur reflection.   I suggest we re-open something relative to annotations.

Unknown jjc: reification-annotations got parked for furthur reflection. I suggest we re-open something relative to annotations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:16:45 <sandro> ian: close should say what we add, but not what we rule out.

Ian Horrocks: close should say what we add, but not what we rule out. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:16:59 <Achille> jjc: we do not rule out them for now

Unknown jjc: we do not rule out them for now ←

15:16:59 <sandro> jjc: yes, open world assumption  :-)

Unknown jjc: yes, open world assumption :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:18:15 <Achille> ian: add it for disjointProperty and close this issue

Ian Horrocks: add it for disjointProperty and close this issue ←

15:18:19 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-94, introducing disjointProperties (and note that disjointClasses is already in OWL2), handled like allDifferentFrom was in OWL 1

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-94, introducing disjointProperties (and note that disjointClasses is already in OWL2), handled like allDifferentFrom was in OWL 1 ←

15:18:31 <m_schnei> sandro, you can also have a look in my Full proposal <http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullSemanticsNaryConstructs>

Michael Schneider: sandro, you can also have a look in my Full proposal <http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullSemanticsNaryConstructs> ←

15:18:48 <pfps> +0 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +0 ALU ←

15:18:50 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

15:18:51 <jjc> +1 (HP)

Unknown jjc: +1 (HP) ←

15:18:52 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

+1 (IBM) ←

15:18:53 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C) ←

15:18:53 <bijan> +1 (Manchester)

Bijan Parsia: +1 (Manchester) ←

15:19:01 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

15:19:01 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

15:19:03 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 (C&P) ←

15:19:04 <bcuencagrau> +1 (oxford univ)

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 (oxford univ) ←

15:19:07 <jluciano> +1 (MITRE)

Joanne Luciano: +1 (MITRE) ←

15:19:14 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

15:19:14 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

15:19:26 <Zhe> +1 (Oracle)

Zhe Wu: +1 (Oracle) ←

15:19:36 <Achille> peter: we are adding more vocabulary

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: we are adding more vocabulary ←

15:19:46 <sandro> m_schnei, I hope to look at it at some point, yeah.

Sandro Hawke: m_schnei, I hope to look at it at some point, yeah. ←

15:20:00 <sandro> RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-94, introducing disjointProperties (and note that disjointClasses is already in OWL2), handled like allDifferentFrom was in OWL 1

RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-94, introducing disjointProperties (and note that disjointClasses is already in OWL2), handled like allDifferentFrom was in OWL 1 ←

15:20:17 <Achille> topic: Issue 96 OWL-1.1 vocabulary naming in RDF mapping is not consistent

9. ISSUE-96 OWL-1.1 vocabulary naming in RDF mapping is not consistent

15:20:33 <Achille> ian: inconsistency in the vocabulary naming

Ian Horrocks: inconsistency in the vocabulary naming ←

15:21:57 <Achille> m_schnei: disjointObjectProperties instead of disjointObjectPropertyWith

Michael Schneider: disjointObjectProperties instead of disjointObjectPropertyWith ←

15:23:37 <sandro> maybe "disjointWithProperty" ?

Sandro Hawke: maybe "disjointWithProperty" ? ←

15:24:05 <Achille> alan: disjointObjectPropertiesWith is not good english

Alan Ruttenberg: disjointObjectPropertiesWith is not good english ←

15:24:25 <sandro> m_schnei: the two-class case has a special serialization on RDF, so it should for property as well.

Michael Schneider: the two-class case has a special serialization on RDF, so it should for property as well. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:24:25 <Achille> alan: let's change then all to make it better english

Alan Ruttenberg: let's change then all to make it better english ←

15:24:56 <Achille> ... all = (disjointClasses and disjointProperties)

... all = (disjointClasses and disjointProperties) ←

15:25:39 <Achille> evren: disjointProperties as we have equivalentProperties

Evren Sirin: disjointProperties as we have equivalentProperties ←

15:26:09 <sandro> Bijan: the problem is that "disjointWith" was too grabby.

Bijan Parsia: the problem is that "disjointWith" was too grabby. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:26:22 <Achille> even: disjointProperty as we have equivalentProperty

Scribe problem: the name 'even' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown even: disjointProperty as we have equivalentProperty ←

15:27:03 <sandro> how about:  p PropertyDisjointWith q

Sandro Hawke: how about: p PropertyDisjointWith q ←

15:27:13 <Achille> m_schnei: onely one case with singular

Michael Schneider: onely one case with singular ←

15:27:42 <sandro> JJC: we could optionally (as per alan) just not have the binary special case.

Unknown JJC: we could optionally (as per alan) just not have the binary special case. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:27:48 <Achille>  jjc: a note to signal a potential alternative design

jjc: a note to signal a potential alternative design ←

15:28:42 <Achille> jjc: get rid of the binary case

Unknown jjc: get rid of the binary case ←

15:29:48 <sandro> PROPOSED: we do not have special vocabulary for pair-of-disjoint properties, but we include an editor's note asking for feedback from OWL Full community about whether they want PropertyDisjointWith or whatever.

PROPOSED: we do not have special vocabulary for pair-of-disjoint properties, but we include an editor's note asking for feedback from OWL Full community about whether they want PropertyDisjointWith or whatever. ←

15:30:31 <Achille> m_schnei: we have case where we have binary only, n-ary and binary, and n-ary only

Michael Schneider: we have case where we have binary only, n-ary and binary, and n-ary only ←

15:31:00 <Achille> bijan: this is not a major issue (i.e. the lack of regularity in the language)

Bijan Parsia: this is not a major issue (i.e. the lack of regularity in the language) ←

15:31:17 <Achille> m_schnei: in this case I would like to reject the issue

Michael Schneider: in this case I would like to reject the issue ←

15:31:22 <sandro> ? PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-96, moving forward without a special vocabulary for pair-of-disjoint properties, but we include an editor's note asking for feedback from OWL Full community about whether they want PropertyDisjointWith or whatever.

Sandro Hawke: ? PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-96, moving forward without a special vocabulary for pair-of-disjoint properties, but we include an editor's note asking for feedback from OWL Full community about whether they want PropertyDisjointWith or whatever. ←

15:32:00 <sandro> m_schnei: i would rather have the vocabulary as is than the term gone.

Michael Schneider: i would rather have the vocabulary as is than the term gone. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:32:56 <sandro> ? PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-96, using owl:propertyDisjointWith for the binary case of disjoint properties

Sandro Hawke: ? PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-96, using owl:propertyDisjointWith for the binary case of disjoint properties ←

15:33:09 <jluciano> +1 (MITRE)

Joanne Luciano: +1 (MITRE) ←

15:33:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-96, using owl:propertyDisjointWith for the binary case of disjoint properties

PROPOSED: resolve ISSUE-96, using owl:propertyDisjointWith for the binary case of disjoint properties ←

15:33:23 <ekw> 0 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: 0 (NIST) ←

15:33:24 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

15:33:27 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

15:33:27 <baojie> 0 (RPI)

Jie Bao: 0 (RPI) ←

15:33:28 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

15:33:29 <jluciano> +1 (MITRE)

Joanne Luciano: +1 (MITRE) ←

15:33:31 <bijan> +0 (Manchester)

Bijan Parsia: +0 (Manchester) ←

15:33:33 <Achille> 0 (IBM)

0 (IBM) ←

15:33:33 <Achille> 0 (IBM)

0 (IBM) ←

15:33:35 <sandro> +0 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +0 (W3C) ←

15:33:35 <bcuencagrau> 0

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: 0 ←

15:33:36 <jjc> +0.5 (HP)

Unknown jjc: +0.5 (HP) ←

15:33:38 <Zhe> 0 (Oracle)

Zhe Wu: 0 (Oracle) ←

15:33:44 <pfps> 0 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 ALU ←

15:33:48 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

15:34:10 <msmith> 0

Michael Smith: 0 ←

15:34:16 <sandro> RESOLVED: resolve ISSUE-96, using owl:propertyDisjointWith for the binary case of disjoint properties

RESOLVED: resolve ISSUE-96, using owl:propertyDisjointWith for the binary case of disjoint properties ←

15:34:56 <sandro> ian: That's all the RDF Mapping issues!

Ian Horrocks: That's all the RDF Mapping issues! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:35:32 <sandro> Bijan: Jeremy, do you think this will make HP happier with OWL 2?    HP had concerns about the mapping in the OWL 1.1 submission.

Bijan Parsia: Jeremy, do you think this will make HP happier with OWL 2? HP had concerns about the mapping in the OWL 1.1 submission. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:35:53 <Achille> jjc: i will report to hp that many of the key issues have been addressed

Unknown jjc: i will report to hp that many of the key issues have been addressed ←

15:36:03 <Achille> topic: Issue 3 & Issue 46 anonymous individuals / Unnamed Individual Restrictions

10. ISSUE-3 & ISSUE-46 anonymous individuals / Unnamed Individual Restrictions

15:36:31 <Achille> boris: allow bnodes in the structural spec

Boris Motik: allow bnodes in the structural spec ←

15:36:44 <Achille> boris: interpret them as anonymous individuals

Boris Motik: interpret them as anonymous individuals ←

15:37:04 <sandro> bmotik: expand structural spec to add bnode-flag on individuals.     also, DL will require that assertions are tree-like.

Boris Motik: expand structural spec to add bnode-flag on individuals. also, DL will require that assertions are tree-like. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:37:10 <Achille> boris: mandate that the assertion are tree like to gurantee decidability

Boris Motik: mandate that the assertion are tree like to gurantee decidability ←

15:37:25 <sandro> bijan: this gets us back to the OWL 1 status quo.

Bijan Parsia: this gets us back to the OWL 1 status quo. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:37:51 <sandro> bijan: This relates to the skolemize-bnodes case.

Bijan Parsia: This relates to the skolemize-bnodes case. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:38:29 <sandro> Ian: this is intended to close these issues.   you're free to raise an issue re: skolem.

Ian Horrocks: this is intended to close these issues. you're free to raise an issue re: skolem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:38:40 <Achille> jjc: the experience is that owl implementaters have interpreted them as skolem

Unknown jjc: the experience is that owl implementaters have interpreted them as skolem ←

15:38:50 <sandro> bijan: skolem would allow non-tree-graphs.

Bijan Parsia: skolem would allow non-tree-graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:39:32 <bmotik> I've just implemented the resolution of two issues w.r.t. property mapping: I've renamed disjointObjectProperties into propertyDisjointWith and have added the n-ary variant for disjoint object properties

Boris Motik: I've just implemented the resolution of two issues w.r.t. property mapping: I've renamed disjointObjectProperties into propertyDisjointWith and have added the n-ary variant for disjoint object properties ←

15:39:54 <Achille> bijan: by this change we will make all owl tools non-conformant

Bijan Parsia: by this change we will make all owl tools non-conformant ←

15:40:16 <sandro> Bijan: This makes all implementations non-conformant.

Bijan Parsia: This makes all implementations non-conformant. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:40:17 <Achille> bijan: i do not see it as a good idea

Bijan Parsia: i do not see it as a good idea ←

15:40:31 <Achille> bijan: i would prefer not having them at all

Bijan Parsia: i would prefer not having them at all ←

15:40:48 <sandro> BijanL ... I would rather NOT HAVE BNodes, if they are going to have existential semantics.

Sandro Hawke: BijanL ... I would rather NOT HAVE BNodes, if they are going to have existential semantics. ←

15:40:53 <Achille> evren: + 1 for bijan

Evren Sirin: + 1 for bijan ←

15:41:10 <Achille> .. but I do not think it makes all tools non-conformant

.. but I do not think it makes all tools non-conformant ←

15:41:22 <Achille> ... I am talking about OWL 1.0

... I am talking about OWL 1.0 ←

15:41:52 <Achille> jjc: I agree with evren. OWL 1.0 test cases are about consistency check

Unknown jjc: I agree with evren. OWL 1.0 test cases are about consistency check ←

15:41:55 <sandro> JJC: the OWL1 entailment tests did not *TECHNICALLY* affect conformance.

Unknown JJC: the OWL1 entailment tests did not *TECHNICALLY* affect conformance. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:42:14 <sandro> JJC; (even though they were "Normative")

Sandro Hawke: JJC; (even though they were "Normative") ←

15:42:15 <bmotik> ACTION: bmotik2 to Modify entire spec according to the proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0018.html

ACTION: bmotik2 to Modify entire spec according to the proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0018.html ←

15:42:15 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-131 - Modify entire spec according to the proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0018.html [on Boris Motik - due 2008-04-11].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-131 - Modify entire spec according to the proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0018.html [on Boris Motik - due 2008-04-11]. ←

15:43:20 <sandro> Alan: this proposal differs from OWL 1 in that the tree-like requirement is no longer enforced by the semantics.

Alan Ruttenberg: this proposal differs from OWL 1 in that the tree-like requirement is no longer enforced by the semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:43:27 <Achille> bijan: I would liek to break the backward compatibility in the spec

Bijan Parsia: I would liek to break the backward compatibility in the spec ←

15:44:20 <sandro> m_schnei: Cyclic property assertion    _:x p _:x

Michael Schneider: Cyclic property assertion _:x p _:x [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:44:24 <Achille> m_schnei: cyclic property assertions ?

Michael Schneider: cyclic property assertions ? ←

15:44:42 <jjc> this is not treee shaped

Unknown jjc: this is not treee shaped ←

15:44:43 <Achille> ian: it would be illegal as not being tree shape

Ian Horrocks: it would be illegal as not being tree shape ←

15:45:02 <sandro> ian: This proposal would rule that out.   But it's also ruled out in OWL 1 because it's not in the DL syntax.

Ian Horrocks: This proposal would rule that out. But it's also ruled out in OWL 1 because it's not in the DL syntax. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:46:22 <Achille> ian: if we resolve this according to boris's proposal, it is up to bijan to introduce the skolem semantics

Ian Horrocks: if we resolve this according to boris's proposal, it is up to bijan to introduce the skolem semantics ←

15:47:01 <Achille> jjc: tree possibilities: 1) no anonymous individuals, 2) individuals as skolem

Unknown jjc: tree possibilities: 1) no anonymous individuals, 2) individuals as skolem ←

15:47:11 <Achille> 3) as per boris's proposal

3) as per boris's proposal ←

15:47:14 <sandro> STRAWPOLL:  (1) no anon individuals    (2) anon indivs as per Boris    (3) anon indiv with skolem semantics

STRAWPOLL: (1) no anon individuals (2) anon indivs as per Boris (3) anon indiv with skolem semantics ←

15:47:36 <sandro> Uli: option 4 -- something else?

Uli Sattler: option 4 -- something else? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:47:40 <jjc> prefer (2), oppose (1) and (3)

Unknown jjc: prefer (2), oppose (1) and (3) ←

15:48:03 <sandro> Alan: we could have ADDITIONAL skolem semantics.

Alan Ruttenberg: we could have ADDITIONAL skolem semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:48:15 <ekw> prefer (3)

Unknown ekw: prefer (3) ←

15:48:28 <sandro> Bijan: that doesn't meet my requirements of having a good enterpretation of EXISTING graphs.

Bijan Parsia: that doesn't meet my requirements of having a good enterpretation of EXISTING graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:48:38 <sandro> Ian: separate issue.

Ian Horrocks: separate issue. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:48:56 <sandro> OPTION-1

Sandro Hawke: OPTION-1 ←

15:49:13 <jjc> -1

Unknown jjc: -1 ←

15:49:16 <bijan> 0

Bijan Parsia: 0 ←

15:49:19 <m_schnei> -0.5 to option 1

Michael Schneider: -0.5 to option 1 ←

15:49:26 <Zhe> 0

Zhe Wu: 0 ←

15:49:26 <pfps> 0 or option 1

Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 or option 1 ←

15:49:27 <sandro> 0

Sandro Hawke: 0 ←

15:49:36 <MarkusK> -0

Markus Krötzsch: -0 ←

15:49:38 <jluciano> 0

Joanne Luciano: 0 ←

15:49:38 <alanr> First vote on (1)

Alan Ruttenberg: First vote on (1) ←

15:49:39 <ekw> 0

Unknown ekw: 0 ←

15:49:39 <Rinke> -0 for option 1

Rinke Hoekstra: -0 for option 1 ←

15:49:43 <Achille> -0

-0 ←

15:49:44 <evrensirin> 0

Evren Sirin: 0 ←

15:49:48 <alanr> -1 for (1)

Alan Ruttenberg: -1 for (1) ←

15:49:50 <IanH> 0

Ian Horrocks: 0 ←

15:49:51 <bcuencagrau> 0

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: 0 ←

15:49:56 <uli> 0

Uli Sattler: 0 ←

15:50:09 <sandro> OPTION-2: (2) anon indivs as per Boris

Scribe problem: the name 'OPTION-2' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown OPTION-2: (2) anon indivs as per Boris [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:50:13 <jjc> +1

Unknown jjc: +1 ←

15:50:14 <bijan> -1

Bijan Parsia: -1 ←

15:50:18 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

15:50:19 <baojie> 0

Jie Bao: 0 ←

15:50:20 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←

15:50:26 <Rinke> 0

Rinke Hoekstra: 0 ←

15:50:27 <ekw> 0

Unknown ekw: 0 ←

15:50:27 <evrensirin> 0

Evren Sirin: 0 ←

15:50:29 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ←

15:50:30 <IanH> +1

Ian Horrocks: +1 ←

15:50:32 <sandro> 0 confused

Sandro Hawke: 0 confused ←

15:50:36 <Achille> 0

0 ←

15:50:37 <m_schnei> -0.25 to 2

Michael Schneider: -0.25 to 2 ←

15:50:43 <Zhe> 0

Zhe Wu: 0 ←

15:50:50 <MarkusK> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1 ←

15:50:51 <uli> 0

Uli Sattler: 0 ←

15:50:56 <jluciano> 0

Joanne Luciano: 0 ←

15:51:01 <sandro> OPTION-3:  (3) anon indiv with skolem semantics

Scribe problem: the name 'OPTION-3' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown OPTION-3: (3) anon indiv with skolem semantics [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:51:23 <bijan> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1 ←

15:51:23 <evrensirin> +1

Evren Sirin: +1 ←

15:51:25 <alanr> 0

Alan Ruttenberg: 0 ←

15:51:28 <MarkusK> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1 ←

15:51:28 <jjc> -1

Unknown jjc: -1 ←

15:51:29 <sandro> +0.75

Sandro Hawke: +0.75 ←

15:51:30 <pfps> 0

Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 ←

15:51:31 <Achille> +0.25

+0.25 ←

15:51:31 <Rinke> 0

Rinke Hoekstra: 0 ←

15:51:32 <ekw> +1

Unknown ekw: +1 ←

15:51:34 <m_schnei> +1 for 3 (skolems)

Michael Schneider: +1 for 3 (skolems) ←

15:51:43 <jluciano> 0

Joanne Luciano: 0 ←

15:51:44 <Zhe> 0.5

Zhe Wu: 0.5 ←

15:51:54 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1 ←

15:51:56 <IanH> 0

Ian Horrocks: 0 ←

15:51:58 <bcuencagrau> 0

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: 0 ←

15:52:43 <sandro> jjc: I might be able to go back to HP and get a different answer.

Unknown jjc: I might be able to go back to HP and get a different answer. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:53:00 <Achille> m_schnei: i am interested in an example where the existential semantics is used

Michael Schneider: i am interested in an example where the existential semantics is used ←

15:53:07 <Achille> bijan: it is never used

Bijan Parsia: it is never used ←

15:53:15 <sandro> Bijan: The only place existential semantics are used is in separate operations.

Bijan Parsia: The only place existential semantics are used is in separate operations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:53:33 <Achille> m_schnei:  the statement was for DL

Michael Schneider: the statement was for DL ←

15:54:21 <sandro> Bijan: This is a request on Jeremy to present some evidence....

Bijan Parsia: This is a request on Jeremy to present some evidence.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:54:25 <Achille> m_schnei: could jeremy provide some evidence of this use in DL ?

Michael Schneider: could jeremy provide some evidence of this use in DL ? ←

15:55:00 <Achille> sandro: we want to add in the draft that we understand that it is non consensual

Sandro Hawke: we want to add in the draft that we understand that it is non consensual ←

15:55:21 <sandro> Sandro: If we make this change, we defiitely want to highlight it, saying we're looking for evidence if it causes any real problem.

Sandro Hawke: If we make this change, we defiitely want to highlight it, saying we're looking for evidence if it causes any real problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:56:08 <sandro> ? PROPOSED: We go with Boris's proposal on the syntax of bnodes, and open a new issue on the semantics of bnodes.

Sandro Hawke: ? PROPOSED: We go with Boris's proposal on the syntax of bnodes, and open a new issue on the semantics of bnodes. ←

15:56:22 <Achille> evren: how about give the skolem semantics for DL and existential for Full

Evren Sirin: how about give the skolem semantics for DL and existential for Full ←

15:56:22 <sandro> Evrin: maybe differeent semantics in DL and Full.

Scribe problem: the name 'Evrin' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Evrin: maybe differeent semantics in DL and Full. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:57:02 <Achille> ian: let's  not discuss evren's proposal now

Ian Horrocks: let's not discuss evren's proposal now ←

15:57:58 <Achille> bijan: i will write a proposal so that we can use it as the starting point for further discussion

Bijan Parsia: i will write a proposal so that we can use it as the starting point for further discussion ←

15:58:40 <alanr> Action: Bijan to put consolidated list of OWL visible differences between bnode semantics as existential versus skolem

ACTION: Bijan to put consolidated list of OWL visible differences between bnode semantics as existential versus skolem ←

15:58:40 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-132 - Put consolidated list of OWL visible differences between bnode semantics as existential versus skolem [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-11].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-132 - Put consolidated list of OWL visible differences between bnode semantics as existential versus skolem [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-11]. ←

15:58:49 <bmotik> The e-mail with the proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0008.html

Boris Motik: The e-mail with the proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0008.html ←

15:59:31 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-46, accepting Boris's proposal (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0008.html) only in terms of the syntax of bnodes, and open a new issue on the semantics of bnodes, including editorial note in owl2-syntax about semantics being still open.

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-46, accepting Boris's proposal (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0008.html) only in terms of the syntax of bnodes, and open a new issue on the semantics of bnodes, including editorial note in owl2-syntax about semantics being still open. ←

15:59:54 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-3 and ISSUE-46, accepting Boris's proposal (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0008.html) only in terms of the syntax of bnodes, and open a new issue on the semantics of bnodes, including editorial note in owl2-syntax about semantics being still open.

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-3 and ISSUE-46, accepting Boris's proposal (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0008.html) only in terms of the syntax of bnodes, and open a new issue on the semantics of bnodes, including editorial note in owl2-syntax about semantics being still open. ←

16:00:10 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

+1 (IBM) ←

16:00:12 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford) ←

16:00:12 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

16:00:14 <Zhe> +1 (Oracle)

Zhe Wu: +1 (Oracle) ←

16:00:15 <bcuencagrau> +1 (oxford)

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 (oxford) ←

16:00:16 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

16:00:17 <baojie> +1 (RPI)

Jie Bao: +1 (RPI) ←

16:00:18 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C) ←

16:00:22 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

16:00:41 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

16:00:52 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 (C&P) ←

16:00:53 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

16:01:17 <sandro> RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-3 and ISSUE-46, accepting Boris's proposal (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0008.html) only in terms of the syntax of bnodes, and open a new issue on the semantics of bnodes, including editorial note in owl2-syntax about semantics being still open.

RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-3 and ISSUE-46, accepting Boris's proposal (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0008.html) only in terms of the syntax of bnodes, and open a new issue on the semantics of bnodes, including editorial note in owl2-syntax about semantics being still open. ←

16:01:17 <jjc> +1 (HP)

Unknown jjc: +1 (HP) ←

16:01:20 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU ←

16:01:22 <bijan> +1 (Manchester)

Bijan Parsia: +1 (Manchester) ←

16:01:43 <bmotik> ACTION: bmotik2 to Update the structural spec to add anonymous individuals; no mention about semantics so far

ACTION: bmotik2 to Update the structural spec to add anonymous individuals; no mention about semantics so far ←

16:01:43 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-133 - Update the structural spec to add anonymous individuals; no mention about semantics so far [on Boris Motik - due 2008-04-11].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-133 - Update the structural spec to add anonymous individuals; no mention about semantics so far [on Boris Motik - due 2008-04-11]. ←

16:01:53 <Achille> topic: Issue 16 entity annotations

11. ISSUE-16 entity annotations

16:02:04 <Achille> ian: we have a proposal from boris

Ian Horrocks: we have a proposal from boris ←

16:03:06 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0397.html

Alan Ruttenberg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0397.html ←

16:03:10 <pfps> Boris's proposal may be: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0397.html

Peter Patel-Schneider: Boris's proposal may be: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0397.html ←

16:04:16 <Achille> boris: Only annotations .  The target of annotation will be either entity or annotation

Boris Motik: Only annotations . The target of annotation will be either entity or annotation ←

16:05:17 <Achille> bijan: i request it to be postponed because I need to think about it more in the context of my annotation proposal

Bijan Parsia: i request it to be postponed because I need to think about it more in the context of my annotation proposal ←

16:05:54 <Achille> pfps: another proposal (much simpler)  from me

Peter Patel-Schneider: another proposal (much simpler) from me ←

16:06:07 <Achille> pfps: what is the status of entity annotation?

Peter Patel-Schneider: what is the status of entity annotation? ←

16:06:42 <Achille> pfps: I would vote to reject the issue because there is nothing wrong

Peter Patel-Schneider: I would vote to reject the issue because there is nothing wrong ←

16:06:45 <Zakim> Team_(owl)13:08Z has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)13:08Z has now started ←

16:06:52 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

16:07:14 <sandro> Hold on, Elisa

Sandro Hawke: Hold on, Elisa ←

16:07:18 <pfps> my solution http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0106.html

Peter Patel-Schneider: my solution http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0106.html ←

16:09:08 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←

16:09:11 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

16:09:13 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

16:10:35 <pfps> zakim, ??p3 is meetingRoom

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, ??p3 is meetingRoom ←

16:10:35 <Zakim> +meetingRoom; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +meetingRoom; got it ←

16:11:54 <Achille> jjc: the issue is about metaannotation

Unknown jjc: the issue is about metaannotation ←

16:12:30 <Achille> jjc: the ability to annotate the annotation

Unknown jjc: the ability to annotate the annotation ←

16:12:39 <Achille> pfps: my proposal does that

Peter Patel-Schneider: my proposal does that ←

16:13:28 <Achille> bijan: this is an important issue  for debra

Bijan Parsia: this is an important issue for debra ←

16:13:41 <Elisa> We, also, in work for JPL and other DoD projects have a serious need for meta-annotations

Elisa Kendall: We, also, in work for JPL and other DoD projects have a serious need for meta-annotations ←

16:13:52 <Achille> achille: this is also an important issue for IBM

Achille Fokoue: this is also an important issue for IBM ←

16:14:05 <Achille> ian: we should carry that discussion on emails

Ian Horrocks: we should carry that discussion on emails ←

16:14:44 <kendall> +1 to this, one of our users, NCI, really really really wants meta-annotations

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: +1 to this, one of our users, NCI, really really really wants meta-annotations ←

16:15:07 <Achille> ACTION: jjc to  drive this issue forward to resolution

ACTION: jjc to drive this issue forward to resolution ←

16:15:07 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - jjc

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - jjc ←

16:16:48 <Achille> topic: Issue 72 Annotation Semantics

12. ISSUE-72 Annotation Semantics

16:16:59 <jjc> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2007/09/

Unknown jjc: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2007/09/ ←

16:17:05 <Achille> ian: the current spec gives no semantics to annotation

Ian Horrocks: the current spec gives no semantics to annotation ←

16:17:16 <Achille> and it is not 100% compatible with OWL 1

and it is not 100% compatible with OWL 1 ←

16:17:19 <jjc> jeremy asked about adding rdf:source as per member submission to allow named graphs to support annotations

Unknown jjc: jeremy asked about adding rdf:source as per member submission to allow named graphs to support annotations ←

16:17:31 <jjc> peter replied

Unknown jjc: peter replied ←

16:17:31 <sandro> pfps: if you're proposing that the underlying transfer mechanism be something other than RDF triples (as you are), then you are opening the floodgates of clear water which will wash away a whole lot of mess.   I will jump with glee.   But you will still be opening flood gates....

Peter Patel-Schneider: if you're proposing that the underlying transfer mechanism be something other than RDF triples (as you are), then you are opening the floodgates of clear water which will wash away a whole lot of mess. I will jump with glee. But you will still be opening flood gates.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:17:55 <Achille> alan: the case I am aware of is if you have 2 individuals that are same as

Alan Ruttenberg: the case I am aware of is if you have 2 individuals that are same as ←

16:18:13 <Achille> then annotations in one is also annotations on the other

then annotations in one is also annotations on the other ←

16:18:33 <Achille> m_schnei: I have also found a bug in the semantics

Michael Schneider: I have also found a bug in the semantics ←

16:18:51 <Achille> m_schnei: I will send an email to the WG because I do not remember

Michael Schneider: I will send an email to the WG because I do not remember ←

16:18:57 <Achille> ... the details

... the details ←

16:19:26 <Achille> alan: by which mechanism the annotation remains with the annotated object

Alan Ruttenberg: by which mechanism the annotation remains with the annotated object ←

16:20:09 <Achille> jjc: this example with sameAs. the annotation is about the syntax (i.e the uri)

Unknown jjc: this example with sameAs. the annotation is about the syntax (i.e the uri) ←

16:20:26 <Achille> jjc: annotations are always about the syntax not the semantics

Unknown jjc: annotations are always about the syntax not the semantics ←

16:20:58 <Achille> bijan: I agree with jjc for the most part

Bijan Parsia: I agree with jjc for the most part ←

16:21:43 <Achille> bijan:  tools can address this issue by presentating same individual together

Bijan Parsia: tools can address this issue by presentating same individual together ←

16:21:45 <Achille> for example

for example ←

16:22:04 <Achille> bijan: it should be handled at the level of tools

Bijan Parsia: it should be handled at the level of tools ←

16:24:15 <Achille> bernado: are we talking about  a backward compatibility issues or are we talking about annotations in general

Scribe problem: the name 'bernado' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bernado: are we talking about a backward compatibility issues or are we talking about annotations in general ←

16:24:34 <Achille> bernardo: we should focus on backward compatibility only

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: we should focus on backward compatibility only ←

16:24:45 <alanr> cats are friendly, annotation "Alan believes this". cat's are friendly, annotation "Uli believes this". Alan believes same thing as ULI

Alan Ruttenberg: cats are friendly, annotation "Alan believes this". cat's are friendly, annotation "Uli believes this". Alan believes same thing as ULI ←

16:25:47 <alanr> Bijan asks, does alan believe no cats are unfriendly (if that's what ULI says?). Answer: yes.

Alan Ruttenberg: Bijan asks, does alan believe no cats are unfriendly (if that's what ULI says?). Answer: yes. ←

16:25:54 <Achille> evren: second jeremy's point: annotations are on the syntax

Evren Sirin: second jeremy's point: annotations are on the syntax ←

16:26:19 <MarkusK> markus: many use cases for AnnotationProperties could now be addressed by punning

Markus Krötzsch: many use cases for AnnotationProperties could now be addressed by punning [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

16:26:38 <MarkusK> markus: (referring to Class-Individual, Property-Individual punning)

Markus Krötzsch: (referring to Class-Individual, Property-Individual punning) [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

16:26:46 <Achille> bijan:  I agree with Markus

Bijan Parsia: I agree with Markus ←

16:27:04 <Achille> MarkusK, thanks for your script assist

MarkusK, thanks for your scribe assist ←

16:27:33 <Achille> s/script/scribe

16:27:36 <m_schnei> The discussion between Alan and me about 1.0-DL semantics for annotations: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0021.html>

Michael Schneider: The discussion between Alan and me about 1.0-DL semantics for annotations: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0021.html> ←

16:28:35 <Achille> ian: it seems to me that we should accept that the semantic is not backward compatible

Ian Horrocks: it seems to me that we should accept that the semantic is not backward compatible ←

16:28:46 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q? ←

16:28:59 <Achille> alan: my concern is that the semantics of annoation are not understood

Alan Ruttenberg: my concern is that the semantics of annoation are not understood ←

16:29:01 <jjc> +1

Unknown jjc: +1 ←

16:29:37 <Achille> alan; my experience tells me that tools do not have a standard way to deal with annotations

alan; my experience tells me that tools do not have a standard way to deal with annotations ←

16:29:44 <bcuencagrau> +q

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +q ←

16:30:19 <Achille> ian: I am saying that the resolution that they do not have a semantics leads to a backward compatibility issue

Ian Horrocks: I am saying that the resolution that they do not have a semantics leads to a backward compatibility issue ←

16:30:56 <Achille> bijan: two things:

Bijan Parsia: two things: ←

16:31:12 <Achille> .. 1) what are the semantics?

.. 1) what are the semantics? ←

16:31:27 <Achille> ... 2) the documentation is not perfect

... 2) the documentation is not perfect ←

16:31:56 <Achille> ... we should do a better jobs on documentating annotations this time around

... we should do a better jobs on documentating annotations this time around ←

16:32:45 <Achille> alan: we are not committed to backward compatibity on annotation

Alan Ruttenberg: we are not committed to backward compatibity on annotation ←

16:33:14 <Achille> alan: we will clarify its semantics even with the risk of breaking backward compatibity

Alan Ruttenberg: we will clarify its semantics even with the risk of breaking backward compatibity ←

16:33:40 <Achille> sandro:  owl 2 is a superset of owl1 with some bugs fixed

Sandro Hawke: owl 2 is a superset of owl1 with some bugs fixed ←

16:34:05 <Achille> ... maybe I should  add that we may also break compatibility on annotations

... maybe I should add that we may also break compatibility on annotations ←

16:35:09 <Achille> alan: my concern is that by saying that it has no semantics, the typical tool may simply ignore them

Alan Ruttenberg: my concern is that by saying that it has no semantics, the typical tool may simply ignore them ←

16:35:24 <Achille> pfps: what does protege do?

Peter Patel-Schneider: what does protege do? ←

16:35:56 <sandro> Alan: I don't only author ontologies, I use them!   :-)

Alan Ruttenberg: I don't only author ontologies, I use them! :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:35:57 <Achille> mathew: protege does not throw them away

Scribe problem: the name 'mathew' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown mathew: protege does not throw them away ←

16:37:34 <Achille> evren: 1) OWL 1 has semantics for annotation but tools still ignore them (for example reasoners)

Evren Sirin: 1) OWL 1 has semantics for annotation but tools still ignore them (for example reasoners) ←

16:38:00 <Achille> evren:  it will be fixed soon in pellet

Evren Sirin: it will be fixed soon in pellet ←

16:38:30 <Achille> PROPOSED: we are not committed to backward compatibility with respect to annotations

PROPOSED: we are not committed to backward compatibility with respect to annotations ←

16:38:35 <sandro> Possible wording:       The OWL Working Group intends to make OWL 2 be a superset of OWL 1, except that some "bugs" may be fixed and annotation semantics may be different.

Sandro Hawke: Possible wording: The OWL Working Group intends to make OWL 2 be a superset of OWL 1, except that some "bugs" may be fixed and annotation semantics may be different. ←

16:38:57 <alanr> evren: What I'll be curious about is how queries on syntax are made - looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with

Evren Sirin: What I'll be curious about is how queries on syntax are made - looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←

16:39:00 <jjc> (note HP will abstain, personally I am in favour)

Unknown jjc: (note HP will abstain, personally I am in favour) ←

16:39:05 <Achille> PROPOSED: we are not committed to backward compatibility with respect to annotation semantics

PROPOSED: we are not committed to backward compatibility with respect to annotation semantics ←

16:43:00 <alanr> PROPOSED: Close Issue-72 saying we are not committed to backward compatibility with respect to annotation semantics, given that the WG will attempt to improve annotation support in OWL 2

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-72 saying we are not committed to backward compatibility with respect to annotation semantics, given that the WG will attempt to improve annotation support in OWL 2 ←

16:43:26 <bijan> +1 (Manchester)

Bijan Parsia: +1 (Manchester) ←

16:43:29 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

+1 (IBM) ←

16:43:30 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 (C&P) ←

16:43:33 <bcuencagrau> +1 (Oxford)

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 (Oxford) ←

16:43:34 <jjc> 0 (HP)

Unknown jjc: 0 (HP) ←

16:43:34 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

16:43:34 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

16:43:35 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

16:43:35 <Zhe> +1 (Oracle)

Zhe Wu: +1 (Oracle) ←

16:43:39 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

16:43:39 <baojie> +1 (RPI)

Jie Bao: +1 (RPI) ←

16:43:40 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

16:43:41 <sandro> m_schnei: The point is that we want OWL 1 documents with annotations to have the same annotations in OWL 2

Michael Schneider: The point is that we want OWL 1 documents with annotations to have the same annotations in OWL 2 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:43:50 <jluciano> +1 (MITRE)

Joanne Luciano: +1 (MITRE) ←

16:43:56 <sandro> 0 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: 0 (W3C) ←

16:43:56 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU ←

16:44:07 <alanr> michael: I don't see anything here that would negatively impact that

Scribe problem: the name 'michael' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Michael Smith Michael Schneider Michael Sintek . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown michael: I don't see anything here that would negatively impact that [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←

16:44:52 <alanr> RESOLVED: Close Issue-72 saying we are not committed to backward compatibility with respect to annotation semantics, given that the WG will attempt to improve annotation support in OWL 2

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-72 saying we are not committed to backward compatibility with respect to annotation semantics, given that the WG will attempt to improve annotation support in OWL 2 ←

16:45:44 <Achille> topic: Task Force Report: Imports and Versioning

13. Task Force Report: Imports and Versioning

16:46:33 <Achille> alan: assumptions:  1) ontologies will be versioned

Alan Ruttenberg: assumptions: 1) ontologies will be versioned ←

16:47:18 <Achille> alan: 2) terms may not  be versioned , 3) different versions will coexist at different locations

Alan Ruttenberg: 2) terms may not be versioned , 3) different versions will coexist at different locations ←

16:49:00 <Achille> alan presentation will be sent to the WG mailing list

alan presentation will be sent to the WG mailing list ←

16:49:16 <Achille> s/ alan presentation / alan's presentation

s/ alan presentation / alan's presentation (warning: replacement failed) ←

16:50:56 <Achille> alan: after the import closure is done, all the version requirements are checked

Alan Ruttenberg: after the import closure is done, all the version requirements are checked ←

16:51:22 <Achille> alan: in case of violations, tools can request users intervention

Alan Ruttenberg: in case of violations, tools can request users intervention ←

16:52:30 <Achille> jjc: this is a generic pb

Unknown jjc: this is a generic problem ←

16:52:40 <Achille> jjc: it is not owl specific.

Unknown jjc: it is not owl specific. ←

16:52:49 <Achille> s/pb/problem

16:53:19 <Achille> alan: there is an implication that OWL addresses this issue

Alan Ruttenberg: there is an implication that OWL addresses this issue ←

16:54:19 <sandro> Bijan: we should be sure to reference David Orchard's work on web versioning in the TAG, and be prepared to discuss differences.

Bijan Parsia: we should be sure to reference David Orchard's work on web versioning in the TAG, and be prepared to discuss differences. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:58:37 <Achille> alan: an external mapping  file specifies  the location of the OWLontologies

Alan Ruttenberg: an external mapping file specifies the location of the OWLontologies ←

17:01:54 <Achille> alan: this is not a report from the task force

Alan Ruttenberg: this is not a report from the task force ←

17:02:05 <Achille> alan: it is just a proposal from me

Alan Ruttenberg: it is just a proposal from me ←

17:03:27 <Achille> alan's proposal is at : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0016.html

alan's proposal is at : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0016.html ←

17:07:34 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

17:57:12 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

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Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

17:57:14 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

17:57:14 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

18:07:47 <kendall> Elisa: my pleasure

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

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Elisa Kendall: my pleasure [ Scribe Assist by Unknown kendall ] ←

18:08:00 <bcuencagrau> alanr: explains his proposal for imports and versioning

Alan Ruttenberg: explains his proposal for imports and versioning [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:08:36 <bcuencagrau> alanr: ontology documents have a single ontology header

Alan Ruttenberg: ontology documents have a single ontology header [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:09:02 <bcuencagrau> pfps: there are RDF graphs that are not OWL Full ontologies

Peter Patel-Schneider: there are RDF graphs that are not OWL Full ontologies [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:09:56 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

18:09:58 <Zakim> -meetingRoom

Scribe problem: the name 'meetingRoom' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -meetingRoom ←

18:09:59 <Zakim> Team_(owl)13:08Z has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)13:08Z has ended ←

18:10:00 <Zakim> Attendees were Elisa_Kendall, meetingRoom

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Elisa_Kendall, meetingRoom ←

18:10:20 <sandro> zakim, room for 4 for 300 minutes?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, room for 4 for 300 minutes? ←

18:10:21 <Zakim> ok, sandro; conference Team_(owl)18:10Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 300 minutes until 2310Z

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; conference Team_(owl)18:10Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 300 minutes until 2310Z ←

18:10:27 <ekw> Elisa we are redialing

Unknown ekw: Elisa we are redialing ←

18:10:36 <sandro> Elisa, we're now on conf cod 26631

Sandro Hawke: Elisa, we're now on conf cod 26631 ←

18:10:43 <sandro> Elisa, we're now on conf code 26631

Sandro Hawke: Elisa, we're now on conf code 26631 ←

18:10:54 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2   CONFERENCE CODE 26631

Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2 CONFERENCE CODE 26631 ←

18:11:28 <Zakim> Team_(owl)18:10Z has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)18:10Z has now started ←

18:11:35 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

18:11:45 <bcuencagrau> alanr: requirement: imprt by name has to have a precise meaning

Alan Ruttenberg: requirement: imprt by name has to have a precise meaning [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:12:40 <bcuencagrau> boris: in RDF we can have multiple RDF triples per ontology. If there are many, then they cannot take part in an import

Boris Motik: in RDF we can have multiple RDF triples per ontology. If there are many, then they cannot take part in an import [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:13:23 <bcuencagrau> matthew: taking the xml base of the document would suffice

Scribe problem: the name 'matthew' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown matthew: taking the xml base of the document would suffice [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:13:34 <bcuencagrau> sandro: better not use xml:base

Sandro Hawke: better not use xml:base [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:14:06 <bcuencagrau> sandro: the RDF mapping should not have anything specific to the concrete serialization used

Sandro Hawke: the RDF mapping should not have anything specific to the concrete serialization used [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:14:49 <sandro> sandro:    (early)    and RDFy way to do this is:       <> owl:sameAs <...the ontology uri...>

Sandro Hawke: (early) and RDFy way to do this is: <> owl:sameAs <...the ontology uri...> [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:14:49 <bcuencagrau> alanr: the purpose of the proposal is to specify how the tools should work

Alan Ruttenberg: the purpose of the proposal is to specify how the tools should work [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:15:07 <sandro> sandro: or owl:sameOntologyAs if you like.

Sandro Hawke: or owl:sameOntologyAs if you like. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:15:17 <bcuencagrau> alanr: namely, to avoid situations where the tool would not know what to do

Alan Ruttenberg: namely, to avoid situations where the tool would not know what to do [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:15:36 <bcuencagrau> alanr: for this purpose, introduce a special kind of document

Alan Ruttenberg: for this purpose, introduce a special kind of document [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:16:21 <bcuencagrau> mschneider: some tools like TopBraid composer has such a mapping internally, similar to what the special document mentioned by alan would do

Michael Schneider: some tools like TopBraid composer has such a mapping internally, similar to what the special document mentioned by alan would do [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:17:19 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: in short, when we import an ontology we should be able to check the version plus a redirection mechnism to go to the right version

Boris Motik: in short, when we import an ontology we should be able to check the version plus a redirection mechnism to go to the right version [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:18:05 <bcuencagrau> alanr: the main purpose is to identify obvious problems, where before we were not able to detect such problems

Alan Ruttenberg: the main purpose is to identify obvious problems, where before we were not able to detect such problems [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:18:33 <bcuencagrau> alanr: this is just to detect more problems than before

Alan Ruttenberg: this is just to detect more problems than before [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:18:51 <bcuencagrau> matthew: is there a notion of a ``session''?

Unknown matthew: is there a notion of a ``session''? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:19:19 <bcuencagrau> alanr: it does not. It only refers to the simplest case

Alan Ruttenberg: it does not. It only refers to the simplest case [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:20:26 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: having one mapping file per session would be a reasonable thing to do in the OWL API

Boris Motik: having one mapping file per session would be a reasonable thing to do in the OWL API [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:20:47 <bcuencagrau> jluciano: better leave those issues out of the spec

Joanne Luciano: better leave those issues out of the spec [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:21:06 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: these kinds of issues should be decided by the tool builders

Boris Motik: these kinds of issues should be decided by the tool builders [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:21:15 <bcuencagrau> bijan: this is big

Bijan Parsia: this is big [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:21:17 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

18:21:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall ←

18:21:36 <bcuencagrau> bijan: we are trying to solve quite a huge problem

Bijan Parsia: we are trying to solve quite a huge problem [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:22:01 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

18:22:02 <Zakim> Team_(owl)18:10Z has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)18:10Z has ended ←

18:22:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Elisa_Kendall ←

18:22:03 <bcuencagrau> bijan: the scope is probably too large for our schedule

Bijan Parsia: the scope is probably too large for our schedule [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:22:15 <sandro> +1 Bijan -- this is at least as big as easy keys, etc.

Sandro Hawke: +1 Bijan -- this is at least as big as easy keys, etc. ←

18:22:36 <bcuencagrau> msmith: please clarify what aspect of it is too big

Michael Smith: please clarify what aspect of it is too big [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:22:42 <bcuencagrau> bijan: all aspects of it

Bijan Parsia: all aspects of it [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:23:32 <bcuencagrau> jjc: probably it would be good to have a special vocabulary to deal with the redirections. May not be normative

Unknown jjc: probably it would be good to have a special vocabulary to deal with the redirections. May not be normative [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:23:32 <sandro> JJC: One use case is to standardize relation between tools.  It could be informative/suggested.

Unknown JJC: One use case is to standardize relation between tools. It could be informative/suggested. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:23:47 <sandro> Alan: I want to know when there are errors.

Alan Ruttenberg: I want to know when there are errors. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:24:19 <sandro> Bijan: owl:imports gets used in RDF.   If we propose something like this, ...

Bijan Parsia: owl:imports gets used in RDF. If we propose something like this, ... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:24:59 <bcuencagrau> bijan: RDF does not have an inclusion mechanism. If we propose something like this we should try to reach some consensus even outside the group

Bijan Parsia: RDF does not have an inclusion mechanism. If we propose something like this we should try to reach some consensus even outside the group [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:25:29 <bcuencagrau> ianH: we are not going to solve this today. We are just presenting proposals

Ian Horrocks: we are not going to solve this today. We are just presenting proposals [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:26:15 <bcuencagrau> sandro: there were a couple of formal objections in the old OWL WG concerning imports

Sandro Hawke: there were a couple of formal objections in the old OWL WG concerning imports [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:26:29 <bcuencagrau> sandro: some people didin't want to include it in the language

Sandro Hawke: some people didin't want to include it in the language [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:26:40 <bcuencagrau> ianH: another proposal by Peter

Ian Horrocks: another proposal by Peter [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:27:27 <bcuencagrau> ianH: time wise, could we continue later than 4:30 or 5:00?

Ian Horrocks: time wise, could we continue later than 4:30 or 5:00? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:27:29 <sandro> no objection to going past 4:30

Sandro Hawke: no objection to going past 4:30 ←

18:27:32 <sandro> no objection to going past 5:00

Sandro Hawke: no objection to going past 5:00 ←

18:27:50 <bcuencagrau> ianH: we will try to finish around 5

Ian Horrocks: we will try to finish around 5 [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:27:58 <sandro> jluciano: I'm probably going to leave around 3.

Joanne Luciano: I'm probably going to leave around 3. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:28:20 <sandro> pfps: the projector is leaving around 5:30.

Peter Patel-Schneider: the projector is leaving around 5:30. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:28:44 <bcuencagrau> peter: imports means import from location

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: imports means import from location [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:29:16 <bcuencagrau> pfps: if you have versions, then use the same simple mechanism, but then you generate import-specific locations

Peter Patel-Schneider: if you have versions, then use the same simple mechanism, but then you generate import-specific locations [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:29:48 <bcuencagrau> pfps: one could also have an annotation property to specify the version

Peter Patel-Schneider: one could also have an annotation property to specify the version [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:29:56 <bcuencagrau> pfps: does not need to be a number

Peter Patel-Schneider: does not need to be a number [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:30:34 <bcuencagrau> pfps: if one imports different versions of a different ontology, one could detect that

Peter Patel-Schneider: if one imports different versions of a different ontology, one could detect that [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:30:58 <bcuencagrau> pfps: different versions have same names, but different version numbers

Peter Patel-Schneider: different versions have same names, but different version numbers [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:31:53 <bcuencagrau> pfps: it is exactly like the W3C versioning system works

Peter Patel-Schneider: it is exactly like the W3C versioning system works [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:32:39 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: is there a relationship beteen the URI of the version and the annotation?

Boris Motik: is there a relationship beteen the URI of the version and the annotation? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:32:45 <bcuencagrau> pfps: not necessarily

Peter Patel-Schneider: not necessarily [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:33:13 <bcuencagrau> pfps: one should not import multiple versions of an ontology

Peter Patel-Schneider: one should not import multiple versions of an ontology [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:33:47 <bcuencagrau> pfps: the annotation is available for pragmatic purposes, but it is meant to be descriptive

Peter Patel-Schneider: the annotation is available for pragmatic purposes, but it is meant to be descriptive [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:34:28 <bcuencagrau> zhe: is there anything in the proposal that deals with version compatibility?

Zhe Wu: is there anything in the proposal that deals with version compatibility? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:34:42 <bcuencagrau> pfps: no word about version compatibility. That is hard

Peter Patel-Schneider: no word about version compatibility. That is hard [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:35:10 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: great, but we need an explicit statement saying what an implementation can do concerning redirection

Boris Motik: great, but we need an explicit statement saying what an implementation can do concerning redirection [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:35:50 <bcuencagrau> pfps: this all is completely outside the semantics of OWL

Peter Patel-Schneider: this all is completely outside the semantics of OWL [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:36:51 <bcuencagrau> mschneider: this is a best practice approach and I like it. Is there anything in alan's proposal that is not covered by peter's?

Michael Schneider: this is a best practice approach and I like it. Is there anything in alan's proposal that is not covered by peter's? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:37:03 <bcuencagrau> alan: yes, the ability to repair

Alan Ruttenberg: yes, the ability to repair [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:37:58 <sandro> Sandro:   I import  D1 and D2.     D1 contains the fact that it's name is D2, version 1.    D2 contains the fact that its name is D1, version 1.

Sandro Hawke: I import D1 and D2. D1 contains the fact that it's name is D2, version 1. D2 contains the fact that its name is D1, version 1. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:37:59 <bcuencagrau> sandro: with Peter's approach, the provide can open different branches and label them as they want

Sandro Hawke: with Peter's approach, the provide can open different branches and label them as they want [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:38:09 <bcuencagrau> pfps: but all this is outside the semantics

Peter Patel-Schneider: but all this is outside the semantics [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:39:01 <bcuencagrau> pfps: the annotations can only talk about the ontology it is in

Peter Patel-Schneider: the annotations can only talk about the ontology it is in [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:39:12 <bcuencagrau> pfps: not about other ones

Peter Patel-Schneider: not about other ones [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:39:48 <bcuencagrau> mschneider: clarification required from alan concerning repair

Michael Schneider: clarification required from alan concerning repair [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:40:50 <bcuencagrau> jjc: request from alan writing what his solution provides compared to peter's

Unknown jjc: request from alan writing what his solution provides compared to peter's [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:41:02 <bcuencagrau> jjc: so far, peter's approach looks much simpler

Unknown jjc: so far, peter's approach looks much simpler [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:41:28 <sandro> Peter: Ontology-versioning is a good reason to violate the SHOULD about name=location.

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: Ontology-versioning is a good reason to violate the SHOULD about name=location. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:42:23 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: in the imports task force, the goal was for each ontology to specify waht particular version is under consideration

Boris Motik: in the imports task force, the goal was for each ontology to specify waht particular version is under consideration [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:42:28 <sandro> +1 Boris -- include in the ontology its "version-name", which is the location at which you can, in the future, get this version.

Sandro Hawke: +1 Boris -- include in the ontology its "version-name", which is the location at which you can, in the future, get this version. ←

18:43:06 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: tools should be able to rename the locations

Boris Motik: tools should be able to rename the locations [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:43:31 <sandro> boris: What you import must have its name or version-name the same as its location.

Boris Motik: What you import must have its name or version-name the same as its location. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:43:34 <bcuencagrau> alanr: if an ontology is missing or has a bug, there is no way to fix the imports in such situation

Alan Ruttenberg: if an ontology is missing or has a bug, there is no way to fix the imports in such situation [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:43:43 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: you can

Boris Motik: you can [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:44:29 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: one can overwrite globally for all ontologies in the import closure

Boris Motik: one can overwrite globally for all ontologies in the import closure [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:44:38 <kendall> +1 to moving on, please

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: +1 to moving on, please ←

18:44:52 <kendall> +50, in fact

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: +50, in fact ←

18:45:20 <bcuencagrau> alanr: in my approach the overwritting is portable whereas in peter's it depends on the tool

Alan Ruttenberg: in my approach the overwritting is portable whereas in peter's it depends on the tool [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:45:54 <bcuencagrau> rinke: in peter's proposal import goes by location, whereas in alan's it goes by name

Rinke Hoekstra: in peter's proposal import goes by location, whereas in alan's it goes by name [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:46:00 <alanr> kendall: We had a several week task force, and this is an important part of our meeting.

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: We had a several week task force, and this is an important part of our meeting. [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←

18:46:19 <bcuencagrau> rinke: in law applications one would want to do it by name. This is an issue

Rinke Hoekstra: in law applications one would want to do it by name. This is an issue [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:46:24 <kendall> yes, where "our" includes me, and that's my preference, which I've a right to express here.

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: yes, where "our" includes me, and that's my preference, which I've a right to express here. ←

18:46:33 <kendall> this is very much in the weeds IMO

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: this is very much in the weeds IMO ←

18:46:58 <bcuencagrau> jjc: the overwriting mechanism already covers this

Unknown jjc: the overwriting mechanism already covers this [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:47:47 <bcuencagrau> pfps: in my proposal it is possible to say that an ontology must import a particular other one

Peter Patel-Schneider: in my proposal it is possible to say that an ontology must import a particular other one [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:48:32 <sandro> q+ to say a URN is a location.

Sandro Hawke: q+ to say a URN is a location. ←

18:48:39 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: now we are saying that import is by location, but location and name can be different providing we can overwrite

Boris Motik: now we are saying that import is by location, but location and name can be different providing we can overwrite [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:48:51 <bcuencagrau> rinke: who overwrites the location?

Rinke Hoekstra: who overwrites the location? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:48:56 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: the application

Boris Motik: the application [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:49:29 <bcuencagrau> sandro: the notion of URN is flawed

Sandro Hawke: the notion of URN is flawed [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:49:49 <bcuencagrau> sandro: URN refers to a name that refers to some content

Sandro Hawke: URN refers to a name that refers to some content [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:49:54 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q- ←

18:50:17 <sandro> Sandro: So when we say "location" here, we really mean any URI which has associated content on the web.

Sandro Hawke: So when we say "location" here, we really mean any URI which has associated content on the web. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:50:29 <bcuencagrau> alanr: people perceive that my proposal allows the user to do too much

Alan Ruttenberg: people perceive that my proposal allows the user to do too much [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:51:02 <alanr> clarifying (I was asking this question - I don't think it does)

Alan Ruttenberg: clarifying (I was asking this question - I don't think it does) ←

18:52:00 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: we want the mapping to depend on the application

Boris Motik: we want the mapping to depend on the application [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:52:04 <bcuencagrau> alanr: no way

Alan Ruttenberg: no way [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:52:15 <bcuencagrau> alanr: that is not what we want

Alan Ruttenberg: that is not what we want [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:52:39 <bcuencagrau> bijan: I am a real user, and I don't like writing mapping files

Bijan Parsia: I am a real user, and I don't like writing mapping files [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:53:15 <bcuencagrau> inaH: now people are kind of clear what the proposals are about

Scribe problem: the name 'inaH' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown inaH: now people are kind of clear what the proposals are about [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:53:38 <bcuencagrau> sandro: the proposals are the same at the core, but alan's adds a resolver on top of it

Sandro Hawke: the proposals are the same at the core, but alan's adds a resolver on top of it [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:54:08 <bcuencagrau> evren: two differences: alan's has the mapping files;

Evren Sirin: two differences: alan's has the mapping files; [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:55:19 <bcuencagrau> second: the mapping files can overwrite the imports of another ontology in your ontology

Scribe problem: the name 'second' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown second: the mapping files can overwrite the imports of another ontology in your ontology [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:55:50 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: both proposals are quite similar

Boris Motik: both proposals are quite similar [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:56:19 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: the difference is that alan's is more expressive because one could detect version incompatibility

Boris Motik: the difference is that alan's is more expressive because one could detect version incompatibility [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:57:05 <sandro> Boris: the extra component is whether we have a Portable Way To Specify Location-Overrides.

Boris Motik: the extra component is whether we have a Portable Way To Specify Location-Overrides. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:57:34 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: there is another disagreement. Alan thinks that we should have a portable way of resolving locations across tools

Boris Motik: there is another disagreement. Alan thinks that we should have a portable way of resolving locations across tools [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:57:54 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: this is a different issue that is independent of what proposal we take

Boris Motik: this is a different issue that is independent of what proposal we take [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:58:00 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: we should split the issues

Boris Motik: we should split the issues [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:58:26 <bcuencagrau> jjc: the imports task force has disagreements

Unknown jjc: the imports task force has disagreements [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:59:10 <sandro> jjc: lets give input to the TF, via strawpoll.

Unknown jjc: lets give input to the TF, via strawpoll. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:59:14 <bcuencagrau> bijan: we should go step by step. Agree with Boris

Bijan Parsia: we should go step by step. Agree with Boris [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

18:59:41 <sandro> Bijan: Chunk 1 :  name -vs- location.    Chunk 2 : Version Management in Imports.       Chunk 3:  Portable Location Overrides

Bijan Parsia: Chunk 1 : name -vs- location. Chunk 2 : Version Management in Imports. Chunk 3: Portable Location Overrides [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:00:37 <bcuencagrau> alanr:  there are problems with Peter' proposal that does not address my user needs

Alan Ruttenberg: there are problems with Peter' proposal that does not address my user needs [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:00:40 <sandro> JJC: I like Bijan's proposal better than mine.

Unknown JJC: I like Bijan's proposal better than mine. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:01:01 <sandro> JJC: Second proposal that peter's "Basic Idea" is an improvement over the past.

Unknown JJC: Second proposal that peter's "Basic Idea" is an improvement over the past. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:01:30 <bcuencagrau> alanr: Peter's proposal is part of mine but not enough

Alan Ruttenberg: Peter's proposal is part of mine but not enough [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:01:49 <bcuencagrau> pter: is it an advance over the current situation?

Scribe problem: the name 'pter' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown pter: is it an advance over the current situation? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:01:53 <bcuencagrau> alanr: marginal

Alan Ruttenberg: marginal [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:02:04 <bcuencagrau> pfps: this means yes

Peter Patel-Schneider: this means yes [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:02:35 <bcuencagrau> IanH: let's have a straw poll

Ian Horrocks: let's have a straw poll [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:02:42 <pfps> Basic idea: Imports(U) means import from the location U.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Basic idea: Imports(U) means import from the location U. ←

19:02:44 <pfps>       	    + the usual overrides to allow caching and local storage

Peter Patel-Schneider: + the usual overrides to allow caching and local storage ←

19:02:45 <pfps>       	    The ontology at U SHOULD have name U

Peter Patel-Schneider: The ontology at U SHOULD have name U ←

19:03:12 <sandro> [that was the "basic idea" we have been talking about, from Peter]

Sandro Hawke: [that was the "basic idea" we have been talking about, from Peter] ←

19:03:13 <bcuencagrau> IanH: part 1 on the IRC

Ian Horrocks: part 1 on the IRC [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:03:24 <bcuencagrau> Part2: versioning

Scribe problem: the name 'Part2' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Part2: versioning [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:03:36 <bcuencagrau> jjc: Peter's or alan's?

Unknown jjc: Peter's or alan's? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:03:49 <bcuencagrau> jjc: Part 3: portable mechanism for overwriting

Unknown jjc: Part 3: portable mechanism for overwriting [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:04:14 <bcuencagrau> IanH: part2: should we do versioning?

Ian Horrocks: part2: should we do versioning? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:04:42 <bcuencagrau> jjc: three options: no versioning, peter's versioning, or alan's versioning

Unknown jjc: three options: no versioning, peter's versioning, or alan's versioning [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:04:55 <bcuencagrau> mschneider: there is no versioning in Peter's

Michael Schneider: there is no versioning in Peter's [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:05:14 <bcuencagrau> pfps: this is actually an important part: only very minor support for it

Peter Patel-Schneider: this is actually an important part: only very minor support for it [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:05:25 <bcuencagrau> IanH: wave hands

Ian Horrocks: wave hands [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:05:32 <bcuencagrau> IanH: Part1

Ian Horrocks: Part1 [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:05:51 <bcuencagrau> Ianh: Should the imports task force shoul do it?

Ian Horrocks: Should the imports task force shoul do it? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:05:56 <sandro> NONBINDING-PROPOSAL: We should incorportate peter's "basic idea"

Scribe problem: the name 'NONBINDING-PROPOSAL' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown NONBINDING-PROPOSAL: We should incorportate peter's "basic idea" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:06:04 <sandro> (pretty much unanmous.)

Sandro Hawke: (pretty much unanmous.) ←

19:06:06 <bcuencagrau> IanH: clear yes

Ian Horrocks: clear yes [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:06:14 <bcuencagrau> IanH: versioning

Ian Horrocks: versioning [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:06:32 <bcuencagrau> Rinke: still not happy with the location part

Rinke Hoekstra: still not happy with the location part [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:06:59 <bcuencagrau> msmith: let's close Issue 21

Michael Smith: let's close ISSUE-21 [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:07:20 <sandro> cf ISSUE-21

Sandro Hawke: cf ISSUE-21 ←

19:07:30 <bcuencagrau> IanH: second part, versioning

Ian Horrocks: second part, versioning [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:07:57 <bcuencagrau> IanH: option 1: do nothing; Option 2: minimal Option 3: rich version

Ian Horrocks: option 1: do nothing; Option 2: minimal Option 3: rich version [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:08:10 <sandro> NONBINDING-PROPOSAL:  (1) don't do anything about versioning, (2) minimal (Peter's) versioning, (3) substantial (Alan's) versioning

Unknown NONBINDING-PROPOSAL: (1) don't do anything about versioning, (2) minimal (Peter's) versioning, (3) substantial (Alan's) versioning [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:08:56 <bcuencagrau> Option 1: 2 people

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Option 1: 2 people ←

19:09:23 <bcuencagrau> mschneider: we had versioning in OWL 1.0

Michael Schneider: we had versioning in OWL 1.0 [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:09:25 <sandro> 1 - no change from OWL 1: 2 (bijan, baojie)

Sandro Hawke: 1 - no change from OWL 1: 2 (bijan, baojie) ←

19:09:36 <Elisa> +1 to Peter's

Elisa Kendall: +1 to Peter's ←

19:09:36 <bcuencagrau> Option 2: peter's

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Option 2: peter's ←

19:09:45 <sandro> 2 - Peter's proposal: 10 people

Sandro Hawke: 2 - Peter's proposal: 10 people ←

19:09:45 <bcuencagrau> IanH: 10 people

Ian Horrocks: 10 people [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:09:53 <bcuencagrau> IanH: alan's

Ian Horrocks: alan's [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:09:59 <bcuencagrau> IanH: 3 people

Ian Horrocks: 3 people [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:10:00 <sandro> 3 - Alan's: 3 people

Sandro Hawke: 3 - Alan's: 3 people ←

19:10:30 <bcuencagrau> jluciano: is peter's a subset of alan's?

Joanne Luciano: is peter's a subset of alan's? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:10:40 <bcuencagrau> IanH: let's not go there now

Ian Horrocks: let's not go there now [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:11:03 <sandro> Ian: advice to TF would be to focus in very lightweight versioning

Ian Horrocks: advice to TF would be to focus in very lightweight versioning [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:11:09 <bcuencagrau> jluciano: Peter's is a starting point; then we could build on top of it

Joanne Luciano: Peter's is a starting point; then we could build on top of it [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:11:35 <bcuencagrau> Bijan: peter's does not break alan's

Bijan Parsia: peter's does not break alan's [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:11:45 <sandro> Uli: Peter's thing doesn't stop us from doing heavier versioning later.

Uli Sattler: Peter's thing doesn't stop us from doing heavier versioning later. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:11:49 <sandro> Alan: well, it might

Alan Ruttenberg: well, it might [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:11:52 <bcuencagrau> IanH: Part 3

Ian Horrocks: Part 3 [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:11:55 <sandro> Boris: it should not.

Boris Motik: it should not. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:12:29 <bcuencagrau> jjc: we could have an informative option

Unknown jjc: we could have an informative option [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:12:38 <jluciano> +1 (MITRE)

Joanne Luciano: +1 (MITRE) ←

19:13:10 <sandro> Topic: Should we specify a Portable Location Override format?

14. Should we specify a Portable Location Override format?

19:14:37 <sandro> Spec shouldn't say anything about it: 6

Sandro Hawke: Spec shouldn't say anything about it: 6 ←

19:15:00 <sandro> Spec should say something non-normative: 9

Sandro Hawke: Spec should say something non-normative: 9 ←

19:15:13 <sandro> Spec should include normative mechanism: 1

Sandro Hawke: Spec should include normative mechanism: 1 ←

19:15:33 <bcuencagrau> sandro: what does non-normative mean?

Sandro Hawke: what does non-normative mean? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:15:45 <kendall> non-normative is an expensive trial balloon

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: non-normative is an expensive trial balloon ←

19:16:08 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: means that one recommends implementors what to do

Boris Motik: means that one recommends implementors what to do [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:16:30 <bcuencagrau> msmith: it gives a kind of base

Michael Smith: it gives a kind of base [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:16:31 <sandro> -1 to "informative"

Sandro Hawke: -1 to "informative" ←

19:16:42 <bcuencagrau> bmotk: there is value in that

Scribe problem: the name 'bmotk' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown bmotk: there is value in that [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:17:24 <bcuencagrau> Bijan: we shoul first engage people like TopBraid composers people

Bijan Parsia: we shoul first engage people like TopBraid composers people [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:17:43 <bcuencagrau> sandro: clarification: it could be normative but optional

Sandro Hawke: clarification: it could be normative but optional [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:18:17 <kendall> kendall: there's nothing OWL-specific here; ergo, this is the wrong WG to do anything (or anything more than very minimal) about this general problem.

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: there's nothing OWL-specific here; ergo, this is the wrong WG to do anything (or anything more than very minimal) about this general problem. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown kendall ] ←

19:18:19 <bcuencagrau> jjc: in an informative version, we could get it wrong

Unknown jjc: in an informative version, we could get it wrong [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:18:32 <sandro> jjc: I want "informative" because we're likely to make mistakes.  This way people can adopt it if it's right, or not if it's wrong.

Unknown jjc: I want "informative" because we're likely to make mistakes. This way people can adopt it if it's right, or not if it's wrong. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:18:49 <bcuencagrau> mschneider: an informative version could become a de facto standard

Michael Schneider: an informative version could become a de facto standard [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:18:52 <sandro> Okay -- from that angle, I'm okay with it.

Sandro Hawke: Okay -- from that angle, I'm okay with it. ←

19:19:13 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: we have some chances of getting it right

Boris Motik: we have some chances of getting it right [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:19:41 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: to make it normative, we should be more precise about details

Boris Motik: to make it normative, we should be more precise about details [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:19:51 <Elisa> fyi, we do cache locally in our tool, which is particularly important for our government customers, but I'm happy to have an informative approach in the spec

Elisa Kendall: fyi, we do cache locally in our tool, which is particularly important for our government customers, but I'm happy to have an informative approach in the spec ←

19:19:51 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: too many gaps

Boris Motik: too many gaps [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:20:04 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: going with informative is safer

Boris Motik: going with informative is safer [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:20:12 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: you can leave many things open

Boris Motik: you can leave many things open [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:20:19 <jjc> I agree strongly with boris

Unknown jjc: I agree strongly with boris ←

19:20:59 <jluciano> take care everyone!  (Signing off now)

Joanne Luciano: take care everyone! (Signing off now) ←

19:21:18 <sandro> It sounds a lot like a "Project" file contains the mapping file....

Sandro Hawke: It sounds a lot like a "Project" file contains the mapping file.... ←

19:22:02 <Elisa> +1 to Kendall

Elisa Kendall: +1 to Kendall ←

19:22:08 <bcuencagrau> Kendall: this is a very general problem. Why are we doing anything there? this is not OWL-specific

Scribe problem: the name 'Kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Kendall: this is a very general problem. Why are we doing anything there? this is not OWL-specific [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:22:18 <bcuencagrau> kendall: not an OWL problem

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: not an OWL problem [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:22:44 <bcuencagrau> IanH: let the task force go away and come up with a proposal given the feedback

Ian Horrocks: let the task force go away and come up with a proposal given the feedback [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:23:12 <bcuencagrau> Bijan: we should get mopre support from other implementors

Bijan Parsia: we should get mopre support from other implementors [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:23:38 <bcuencagrau> IanH: see if we can close issue 21 on the basis that we believe we have agreement

Ian Horrocks: see if we can close ISSUE-21 on the basis that we believe we have agreement [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:23:47 <bijan> Scribecorrect: I said that *if* we had explicit support from the implementors, then I would be more inclined to support doing something.

Scribe problem: the name 'Scribecorrect' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Scribecorrect: I said that *if* we had explicit support from the implementors, then I would be more inclined to support doing something. [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←

19:24:29 <kendall> kendall: For example, http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/entity/spec-2001-08-06.html

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: For example, http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/entity/spec-2001-08-06.html [ Scribe Assist by Unknown kendall ] ←

19:25:35 <bmotik> Peter's proposal for resolution of ISSUE-21:

Boris Motik: Peter's proposal for resolution of ISSUE-21: ←

19:25:47 <bmotik> Imports(U) means import from the location U.Imports(U) means import from the location U.

Boris Motik: Imports(U) means import from the location U.Imports(U) means import from the location U. ←

19:25:52 <bmotik> + the usual overrides to allow caching and local storage

Boris Motik: + the usual overrides to allow caching and local storage ←

19:25:57 <bmotik> The ontology at U SHOULD have name U

Boris Motik: The ontology at U SHOULD have name U ←

19:26:39 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve issue-21, to say we're importing by location and that, modulo overrides, modulo versioning, the ontology at U SHOULD have name U.

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-21, to say we're importing by location and that, modulo overrides, modulo versioning, the ontology at U SHOULD have name U. ←

19:27:53 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: I do not understand what we are voting for

Boris Motik: I do not understand what we are voting for [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:28:28 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve issue-21, to say we're importing by location and that, modulo overrides, modulo versioning, the ontology at U SHOULD have name U.

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-21, to say we're importing by location and that, modulo overrides, modulo versioning, the ontology at U SHOULD have name U. ←

19:29:09 <sandro> Evan: as long as URNs are considered location, as Sandro claims, then I'm fine with this.  I don't want to outlaw URNs.

Evan Wallace: as long as URNs are considered location, as Sandro claims, then I'm fine with this. I don't want to outlaw URNs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:29:19 <sandro> Alan: I agree, this protects URNs.

Alan Ruttenberg: I agree, this protects URNs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:29:33 <bcuencagrau> ewallace: what does location really mean? Are we talking specifically about URLs?

Evan Wallace: what does location really mean? Are we talking specifically about URLs? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:30:50 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: location might not match the name

Boris Motik: location might not match the name [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:31:17 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: but the ontology location should match the imports

Boris Motik: but the ontology location should match the imports [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:31:37 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve issue-21, to say we're importing by location and that, modulo versioning, the ontology imported from U SHOULD have name U.   There may be some kind of override of location, but not the name.

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-21, to say we're importing by location and that, modulo versioning, the ontology imported from U SHOULD have name U. There may be some kind of override of location, but not the name. ←

19:31:44 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: modulo versioning

Boris Motik: modulo versioning [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:34:32 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: the proposal implies import by location with a possibility to overwrite the location

Boris Motik: the proposal implies import by location with a possibility to overwrite the location [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:34:33 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve issue-21, to say that import is fundamentally by location, and that what you retreive from that location should give its name as that import-location.  There may be overrides along the way to retreiving that content, but the import-text and the final-name text SHOULD be the same.   All of this may be changed to accomodate versioning..

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-21, to say that import is fundamentally by location, and that what you retreive from that location should give its name as that import-location. There may be overrides along the way to retreiving that content, but the import-text and the final-name text SHOULD be the same. All of this may be changed to accomodate versioning.. ←

19:36:10 <kendall> next on the agenda: OWLWG solves the problems with SVG and XML Schema!! :>

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: next on the agenda: OWLWG solves the problems with SVG and XML Schema!! :> ←

19:36:24 <bcuencagrau> Bijan: this is not really imports by location

Bijan Parsia: this is not really imports by location [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:36:34 <bcuencagrau> IanH: let us move forward

Ian Horrocks: let us move forward [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:36:48 <bcuencagrau> IanH: let's postpone this to email discussion

Ian Horrocks: let's postpone this to email discussion [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:37:02 <bcuencagrau> mschneider: what does it mean import by name?

Michael Schneider: what does it mean import by name? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:37:06 <sandro> (Boris says he completely agrees with my phrasing in the PROPOSAL)

Sandro Hawke: (Boris says he completely agrees with my phrasing in the PROPOSAL) ←

19:37:30 <bcuencagrau> bmotik: you never say where the location is. What I propose is that the name and the location should match

Boris Motik: you never say where the location is. What I propose is that the name and the location should match [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:38:00 <bcuencagrau> sandro: let us make a straw poll

Sandro Hawke: let us make a straw poll [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:38:18 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve issue-21, to say we're importing by location and that, modulo versioning, the ontology imported from U SHOULD have name U.   There may be some kind of override of location, but not the name.

19:38:19 <alanr> -1

Alan Ruttenberg: -1 ←

19:38:20 <jjc> +1

Unknown jjc: +1 ←

19:38:21 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford) ←

19:38:23 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

19:38:23 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

19:38:25 <Zhe> +0.8

Zhe Wu: +0.8 ←

19:38:28 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

19:38:29 <Rinke> -0

Rinke Hoekstra: -0 ←

19:38:31 <alanr> don't understand

Alan Ruttenberg: don't understand ←

19:38:32 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1 ←

19:38:34 <Elisa> +1

Elisa Kendall: +1 ←

19:38:39 <bijan> -1

Bijan Parsia: -1 ←

19:38:41 <baojie> -0.5

Jie Bao: -0.5 ←

19:38:53 <uli> need to think more

Uli Sattler: need to think more ←

19:38:54 <ekw> -1

Unknown ekw: -1 ←

19:38:55 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU ←

19:39:05 <sandro> Ian: Okay, moving along!

Ian Horrocks: Okay, moving along! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:39:12 <Rinke> (need to think more as well... )

Rinke Hoekstra: (need to think more as well... ) ←

19:39:21 <bcuencagrau> IanH: no consensus. Let's take it offline

Ian Horrocks: no consensus. Let's take it offline [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:39:23 <sandro> evan: I buy Bijan's argument that this ISN'T imports-by-location.

Evan Wallace: I buy Bijan's argument that this ISN'T imports-by-location. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:39:41 <Rinke> I buy that argument as well

Rinke Hoekstra: I buy that argument as well ←

19:39:48 <Rinke> ... I think...

Rinke Hoekstra: ... I think... ←

19:40:03 <bcuencagrau> IanH: no user-facing documents discussion

Ian Horrocks: no user-facing documents discussion [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:40:27 <bcuencagrau> break

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: break ←

19:41:04 <sandro> ian: after break -- Syntax-As-Reference, or EasyKeys, RichAnnotations, NAry.

Ian Horrocks: after break -- Syntax-As-Reference, or EasyKeys, RichAnnotations, NAry. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:41:21 <bcuencagrau> ianh: straw poll

Ian Horrocks: straw poll [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:41:35 <sandro> syntax-as-reference - 0

Sandro Hawke: syntax-as-reference - 0 ←

19:41:36 <bcuencagrau> ianh: who wants to do easy keys?

Ian Horrocks: who wants to do easy keys? [ Scribe Assist by Bernardo Cuenca Grau ] ←

19:41:39 <sandro> easykeys - 10

Sandro Hawke: easykeys - 10 ←

19:41:39 <bcuencagrau> 10

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: 10 ←

19:41:42 <Elisa> +1 for easy keys

Elisa Kendall: +1 for easy keys ←

19:41:43 <sandro> rich annotation - 3

Sandro Hawke: rich annotation - 3 ←

19:41:46 <bcuencagrau> annotations?

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: annotations? ←

19:41:47 <bcuencagrau> 3

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: 3 ←

19:41:48 <sandro> nary - 3

Sandro Hawke: nary - 3 ←

19:41:56 <bcuencagrau> nary datatypes?

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: nary datatypes? ←

19:41:58 <bcuencagrau> 3

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: 3 ←

19:41:59 <sandro> Ian: Come back at 4pm for EasyKeys.

Ian Horrocks: Come back at 4pm for EasyKeys. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:43:20 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←

19:43:20 <Zakim> apparently Team_(owl)18:10Z has ended, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: apparently Team_(owl)18:10Z has ended, sandro ←

19:43:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli, IanH, bcuencagrau, baojie, thomassch, kendall, Zhe, alanr, ekw, bmotik, MarkusK, m_schnei, jjc, Rinke, evrensirin, dlm, Elisa, Carsten, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see uli, IanH, bcuencagrau, baojie, thomassch, kendall, Zhe, alanr, ekw, bmotik, MarkusK, m_schnei, jjc, Rinke, evrensirin, dlm, Elisa, Carsten, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, ←

19:43:23 <Zakim> ... sandro, pfps, msmith, trackbot-ng

Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, pfps, msmith, trackbot-ng ←

20:07:01 <evrensirin> scribenick: evrensirin

(No events recorded for 23 minutes)

(Scribe set to Evren Sirin)

20:07:17 <evrensirin> ian: admin material

Ian Horrocks: admin material ←

20:07:35 <evrensirin> ian: scribes should clean up the minutes they scribed as usual

Ian Horrocks: scribes should clean up the minutes they scribed as usual ←

20:08:07 <evrensirin> ian: next f2f scheduled with iswc

Ian Horrocks: next f2f scheduled with iswc ←

20:08:19 <sandro> NOT "next"    Rather, "A Future"

Sandro Hawke: NOT "next" Rather, "A Future" ←

20:08:42 <evrensirin> ian: we'll setup a poll about f2f date

Ian Horrocks: we'll setup a poll about f2f date ←

20:09:02 <evrensirin> ian: people should consider about hosting

Ian Horrocks: people should consider about hosting ←

20:09:35 <evrensirin> ian: make a proposal if you want to host

Ian Horrocks: make a proposal if you want to host ←

20:10:22 <evrensirin> ian: informal telecon next week for people who weren't in the f2f to chat with people who were in f2f

Ian Horrocks: informal telecon next week for people who weren't in the f2f to chat with people who were in f2f ←

20:11:15 <ekw> Note that a number of us will be at a meeting 23 - 27 June.

Unknown ekw: Note that a number of us will be at a meeting 23 - 27 June. ←

20:11:32 <ekw> Elisa Can you hear us?

Unknown ekw: Elisa Can you hear us? ←

20:11:45 <sandro> ACTION: sandro set up F2F calendar poll

ACTION: sandro set up F2F calendar poll ←

20:11:45 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-134 - Set up F2F calendar poll [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-04-11].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-134 - Set up F2F calendar poll [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-04-11]. ←

20:11:52 <evrensirin> sandro: put a note saying "before you comment look at the wiki to see if issue is addressed"

Sandro Hawke: put a note saying "before you comment look at the wiki to see if issue is addressed" ←

20:12:16 <evrensirin> jjc: add a editorial note at the top of each document saying vocabulary is simplified

Unknown jjc: add a editorial note at the top of each document saying vocabulary is simplified ←

20:12:28 <sandro> Sandro: Any problem with me linking to wiki, instead of including review comments, ?

Sandro Hawke: Any problem with me linking to wiki, instead of including review comments, ? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:12:39 <evrensirin> alanr: this is reasonable, any objections?

Alan Ruttenberg: this is reasonable, any objections? ←

20:12:42 <sandro> (general agreement -- no objection)

Sandro Hawke: (general agreement -- no objection) ←

20:12:55 <evrensirin> boris: I'll do it now

Boris Motik: I'll do it now ←

20:13:01 <evrensirin> ian: continue with easy keys

Ian Horrocks: continue with easy keys ←

20:13:03 <sandro> Topic: Easy Keys

15. Easy Keys

20:13:33 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Easy_Keys

Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Easy_Keys ←

20:13:43 <evrensirin> uli: two goals: 1) do not prevent future extensions

Uli Sattler: two goals: 1) do not prevent future extensions ←

20:14:01 <evrensirin> ...2) an easy extension

...2) an easy extension ←

20:14:16 <evrensirin> bijan: this is n-ary datatypes

Bijan Parsia: this is n-ary datatypes ←

20:14:41 <evrensirin> bijan: I'll explain easy keys

Bijan Parsia: I'll explain easy keys ←

20:14:54 <evrensirin> bijan: having inverse functional datatype properties in full generality is hard

Bijan Parsia: having inverse functional datatype properties in full generality is hard ←

20:15:07 <evrensirin> bijan: we have an idea how to implement but not efficiently

Bijan Parsia: we have an idea how to implement but not efficiently ←

20:15:26 <evrensirin> bijan: datatype reasoner needs to consider all literals globally

Bijan Parsia: datatype reasoner needs to consider all literals globally ←

20:15:33 <evrensirin> ... but keys are very useful

... but keys are very useful ←

20:15:35 <kendall> "they" said that about QCR, too :)

Scribe problem: the name 'kendall' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Elisa Kendall Kendall Clark . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown kendall: "they" said that about QCR, too :) ←

20:16:02 <evrensirin> bijan: we can do explicit keys on explicit individuals

Bijan Parsia: we can do explicit keys on explicit individuals ←

20:16:14 <evrensirin> ... if there are two individuals with same key

... if there are two individuals with same key ←

20:16:21 <evrensirin> ... infer they are owl:sameAs

... infer they are owl:sameAs ←

20:16:41 <evrensirin> ... you can write this using DL-safe rules

... you can write this using DL-safe rules ←

20:17:29 <evrensirin> ... basic rule is if x and y are related to z by the key they are same

... basic rule is if x and y are related to z by the key they are same ←

20:18:04 <evrensirin> ... people think this kind of functionality is good enough

... people think this kind of functionality is good enough ←

20:18:22 <evrensirin> ... but writing these rules is not easy or intention-revealing

... but writing these rules is not easy or intention-revealing ←

20:18:34 <evrensirin> ... they keys can be restricted to a certain class, too

... they keys can be restricted to a certain class, too ←

20:18:46 <evrensirin> ... you can go further and consider compound keys

... you can go further and consider compound keys ←

20:19:31 <evrensirin> ... e.g. having both same SSN and same age is a key

... e.g. having both same SSN and same age is a key ←

20:19:50 <evrensirin> jjc: does this only for named individuals or include bnodes?

Unknown jjc: does this only for named individuals or include bnodes? ←

20:20:00 <evrensirin> bijan: no bnodes, it is hard to handle

Bijan Parsia: no bnodes, it is hard to handle ←

20:20:26 <evrensirin> jjc: what are other things I would miss with easy keys vs full keys?

Unknown jjc: what are other things I would miss with easy keys vs full keys? ←

20:20:29 <bmotik> I've just added an editorial note to all the documents about the vocabulary.

Boris Motik: I've just added an editorial note to all the documents about the vocabulary. ←

20:21:03 <evrensirin> alanr: how does this interact with punning?

Alan Ruttenberg: how does this interact with punning? ←

20:21:34 <evrensirin> bijan: if you are fine with sameAs between individuals it is ok

Bijan Parsia: if you are fine with sameAs between individuals it is ok ←

20:22:07 <evrensirin> bijan: regarding jeremy's question, missing keys is ok in easy keys

Bijan Parsia: regarding jeremy's question, missing keys is ok in easy keys ←

20:22:22 <evrensirin> ... these are not integrity constratins

... these are not integrity constratins ←

20:22:36 <evrensirin> ... having more than one key should be forbidden

... having more than one key should be forbidden ←

20:22:46 <evrensirin> ... you can add a cardinality restriction

... you can add a cardinality restriction ←

20:23:24 <baojie> have to leave, wish a fruitful session on easy key :)

Jie Bao: have to leave, wish a fruitful session on easy key :) ←

20:23:29 <evrensirin> bernardo: afaik, the difference between proper keys is easy keys only affect data (ABox)

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: afaik, the difference between proper keys is easy keys only affect data (ABox) ←

20:24:00 <evrensirin> ... proper keys can affect TBox subsumption

... proper keys can affect TBox subsumption ←

20:24:10 <evrensirin> carsten: modulo nominals

Scribe problem: the name 'carsten' does not match any of the 53 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown carsten: modulo nominals ←

20:24:17 <evrensirin> bijan: yes

Bijan Parsia: yes ←

20:24:40 <evrensirin> jeremy: this looks more like rules

Jeremy Carroll: this looks more like rules ←

20:24:55 <evrensirin> bijan: yes but we do not want to tell people to use rules

Bijan Parsia: yes but we do not want to tell people to use rules ←

20:25:14 <evrensirin> ... have special syntax for keys

... have special syntax for keys ←

20:25:52 <evrensirin> ... the syntax lists one or more properties and the class for which the key is defined

... the syntax lists one or more properties and the class for which the key is defined ←

20:26:18 <evrensirin> ... more than one property is for compound keys

... more than one property is for compound keys ←

20:26:31 <evrensirin> ... you are free to mix object and datatype properties here

... you are free to mix object and datatype properties here ←

20:26:40 <evrensirin> jjc: can I use property chains here?

Unknown jjc: can I use property chains here? ←

20:27:03 <evrensirin> uli: technically we can add them

Uli Sattler: technically we can add them ←

20:27:22 <evrensirin> bijan: we didn't think of them but we can add

Bijan Parsia: we didn't think of them but we can add ←

20:27:55 <evrensirin> ... you can write it in DL-safe rules so it is possible

... you can write it in DL-safe rules so it is possible ←

20:28:11 <evrensirin> ... but for that complexity we might tell people to use rules

... but for that complexity we might tell people to use rules ←

20:28:18 <evrensirin> ... but I'm flexible on this issue

... but I'm flexible on this issue ←

20:29:21 <MarkusK> markus: property chains allow for non-safe (anonymous) middle parts

Markus Krötzsch: property chains allow for non-safe (anonymous) middle parts [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

20:29:23 <evrensirin> bijan: you can also add property chains by a new property axiom giving the chain name

Bijan Parsia: you can also add property chains by a new property axiom giving the chain name ←

20:30:00 <evrensirin> boris: the semantics refers to Hu which is not in anywhere else

Boris Motik: the semantics refers to Hu which is not in anywhere else ←

20:30:07 <MarkusK> markus: so with property chains, one can declare a new property that is then used in an easykey

Markus Krötzsch: so with property chains, one can declare a new property that is then used in an easykey [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

20:30:29 <MarkusK> markus: this works only for ObtjectProperties

Markus Krötzsch: this works only for ObtjectProperties [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

20:30:47 <MarkusK> s /ObtjectProperties/ObjectProperties/

Markus Krötzsch: s /ObtjectProperties/ObjectProperties/ ←

20:30:50 <evrensirin> bijan: we introduce O predicate that is true for all individuals

Bijan Parsia: we introduce O predicate that is true for all individuals ←

20:30:57 <evrensirin> bijan: that is how you get safety

Bijan Parsia: that is how you get safety ←

20:31:08 <evrensirin> ... Hu does the same for literals

... Hu does the same for literals ←

20:31:28 <evrensirin> boris: OWL is two-sorted so you would need two Hu's

Boris Motik: OWL is two-sorted so you would need two Hu's ←

20:32:21 <evrensirin> uli: O is the name of the ontology and use Hu for objects and literals

Uli Sattler: O is the name of the ontology and use Hu for objects and literals ←

20:32:39 <evrensirin> uli: we can have Hu1 and Hu2 separately

Uli Sattler: we can have Hu1 and Hu2 separately ←

20:32:47 <evrensirin> boris: yes you have to have two

Boris Motik: yes you have to have two ←

20:33:27 <evrensirin> bijan: lexical difference is an issue

Bijan Parsia: lexical difference is an issue ←

20:34:01 <evrensirin> bijan: also you can have restriction >16 and <18 which means the value is exactly 17

Bijan Parsia: also you can have restriction >16 and <18 which means the value is exactly 17 ←

20:34:07 <evrensirin> jjc: how do you write that?

Unknown jjc: how do you write that? ←

20:34:25 <evrensirin> bijan: using dataranges and restrictions on facets

Bijan Parsia: using dataranges and restrictions on facets ←

20:34:52 <sandro> bijan: the difficulty is not lexical variants, ....   it's cases where you infer the properties value with facets.

Bijan Parsia: the difficulty is not lexical variants, .... it's cases where you infer the properties value with facets. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:34:53 <evrensirin> boris: we have unique interpretation and if we drop it it wouldn't be easier

Boris Motik: we have unique interpretation and if we drop it it wouldn't be easier ←

20:35:33 <evrensirin> jjc: if I have an inferred value for an easy key for a named individual does the key apply?

Unknown jjc: if I have an inferred value for an easy key for a named individual does the key apply? ←

20:35:37 <evrensirin> bijan: yes

Bijan Parsia: yes ←

20:36:07 <evrensirin> alanr: but not if the subject is inferred

Alan Ruttenberg: but not if the subject is inferred ←

20:36:49 <evrensirin> bijan: boris, you can search for all literals and then lexically normalize them

Bijan Parsia: boris, you can search for all literals and then lexically normalize them ←

20:37:18 <evrensirin> boris: from every constant we need to uniquely interpret it

Boris Motik: from every constant we need to uniquely interpret it ←

20:38:07 <evrensirin> bijan: counter example is addition of a new fact might merge two existing individuals that weren't merged before

Bijan Parsia: counter example is addition of a new fact might merge two existing individuals that weren't merged before ←

20:39:05 <evrensirin> bijan: you can get literals with existential restrictions

Bijan Parsia: you can get literals with existential restrictions ←

20:39:16 <evrensirin> boris: but it is not in Hu

Boris Motik: but it is not in Hu ←

20:39:25 <evrensirin> bijan: no, it would be in Hu

Bijan Parsia: no, it would be in Hu ←

20:40:00 <evrensirin> uli: this might make implementations a little harder but otherwise there are other complications

Uli Sattler: this might make implementations a little harder but otherwise there are other complications ←

20:40:26 <evrensirin> jjc: are there other things that I should be worried about other than bnodes?

Unknown jjc: are there other things that I should be worried about other than bnodes? ←

20:40:33 <evrensirin> bijan: not that I can think of

Bijan Parsia: not that I can think of ←

20:40:50 <evrensirin> ian: what if the restriction specifies a range?

Ian Horrocks: what if the restriction specifies a range? ←

20:41:21 <evrensirin> ... the range can be a finite range then it is not that easy any more as Boris says

... the range can be a finite range then it is not that easy any more as Boris says ←

20:41:29 <evrensirin> uli: it is as easy as DL-safe rules

Uli Sattler: it is as easy as DL-safe rules ←

20:41:48 <evrensirin> bijan: you can always build a disjunction to denote that range

Bijan Parsia: you can always build a disjunction to denote that range ←

20:42:01 <evrensirin> boris: in OWL I can say greater than 3 which is infinite

Boris Motik: in OWL I can say greater than 3 which is infinite ←

20:42:08 <evrensirin> ... so what do I put in Hu?

... so what do I put in Hu? ←

20:42:19 <evrensirin> ... I'm not sure if this is decidable

... I'm not sure if this is decidable ←

20:42:37 <evrensirin> ... also how about complements?

... also how about complements? ←

20:43:12 <evrensirin> bijan: there was another choice to make it more easier

Bijan Parsia: there was another choice to make it more easier ←

20:43:24 <evrensirin> ... we discussed that possibility

... we discussed that possibility ←

20:43:39 <evrensirin> ... but then sometimes you get surprising results

... but then sometimes you get surprising results ←

20:44:03 <evrensirin> ... when you mention one literal explicitly you get new inferences

... when you mention one literal explicitly you get new inferences ←

20:44:43 <evrensirin> alanr: I can make a class whose age is 17 is equal to nothing

Alan Ruttenberg: I can make a class whose age is 17 is equal to nothing ←

20:44:54 <evrensirin> ... is this still easy with your proposal?

... is this still easy with your proposal? ←

20:45:09 <evrensirin> uli: mention two surprising results

Uli Sattler: mention two surprising results ←

20:45:41 <evrensirin> ... saying john's age is 17 and saying john belongs to class of people whose age is 17 would give different results

... saying john's age is 17 and saying john belongs to class of people whose age is 17 would give different results ←

20:45:55 <evrensirin> jjc: is there rdf/xml syntax for this?

Unknown jjc: is there rdf/xml syntax for this? ←

20:46:11 <evrensirin> bijan: we didn't do the work without knowing if wg would like the proposal

Bijan Parsia: we didn't do the work without knowing if wg would like the proposal ←

20:46:29 <evrensirin> boris: as feedback, I like the general idea but I don't understand details

Boris Motik: as feedback, I like the general idea but I don't understand details ←

20:46:44 <evrensirin> ... without seeing more details I don't understand this is decidable

... without seeing more details I don't understand this is decidable ←

20:46:49 <evrensirin> bijan: fair enough

Bijan Parsia: fair enough ←

20:47:09 <evrensirin> m_schnei: this is trivial but where is the datatype defined?

Michael Schneider: this is trivial but where is the datatype defined? ←

20:47:36 <evrensirin> bijan: could be with a range restriction

Bijan Parsia: could be with a range restriction ←

20:48:29 <evrensirin> markusk: since this interacts with datarange facets there are no implementations

Markus Krötzsch: since this interacts with datarange facets there are no implementations ←

20:49:11 <evrensirin> ian: I agree that I want to see a more formal presentation of semantics and proof for decidability

Ian Horrocks: I agree that I want to see a more formal presentation of semantics and proof for decidability ←

20:49:42 <evrensirin> boris: the herbrand universe should be finite for decidability

Boris Motik: the herbrand universe should be finite for decidability ←

20:49:49 <evrensirin> uli: not necessarily

Uli Sattler: not necessarily ←

20:50:15 <evrensirin> uli: before going with semantics I want to learn how people feel about oddities

Uli Sattler: before going with semantics I want to learn how people feel about oddities ←

20:50:35 <evrensirin> alanr: how about 1^^xsd:int and 1^^xsd:double as key value?

Alan Ruttenberg: how about 1^^xsd:int and 1^^xsd:double as key value? ←

20:50:50 <evrensirin> msmith: int and double are disjoint

Michael Smith: int and double are disjoint ←

20:52:12 <evrensirin> alanr: so the first question is are we happy with easier one with oddities and how much work is needed for complicated version?

Alan Ruttenberg: so the first question is are we happy with easier one with oddities and how much work is needed for complicated version? ←

20:52:24 <evrensirin> boris: I cannot say without more details

Boris Motik: I cannot say without more details ←

20:52:38 <evrensirin> pfps: we are happy to see the proposal and would like to see more

Peter Patel-Schneider: we are happy to see the proposal and would like to see more ←

20:53:07 <evrensirin> jjc: I have an issue with simpler case

Unknown jjc: I have an issue with simpler case ←

20:53:56 <evrensirin> m_schnei: can you put something in the wiki about not-easy keys

Michael Schneider: can you put something in the wiki about not-easy keys ←

20:54:15 <evrensirin> alanr: we are 5min to 5

Alan Ruttenberg: we are 5min to 5 ←

20:54:28 <evrensirin> uli: I want three-fold indication for easy keys

Uli Sattler: I want three-fold indication for easy keys ←

20:55:28 <evrensirin> uli: you can introduce proper idfp if you don't use the key in restriction

Uli Sattler: you can introduce proper idfp if you don't use the key in restriction ←

20:55:47 <evrensirin> uli: option 1 - very easy keys with oddities

Uli Sattler: option 1 - very easy keys with oddities ←

20:55:55 <evrensirin> ... option 2- as we presented

... option 2- as we presented ←

20:56:38 <evrensirin> ... options 3 - introduce proper idfp without using in restrictions or non-finite dataranges

... options 3 - introduce proper idfp without using in restrictions or non-finite dataranges ←

20:56:50 <evrensirin> alanr: anybidy who doesn't want either?

Alan Ruttenberg: anybidy who doesn't want either? ←

20:56:54 <evrensirin> alanr: noone

Alan Ruttenberg: noone ←

20:57:14 <evrensirin> alanr: large part of wg want at least very easy keys

Alan Ruttenberg: large part of wg want at least very easy keys ←

20:57:29 <evrensirin> alanr: who wants option 2 with uli and Bijan providing prrof?

Alan Ruttenberg: who wants option 2 with uli and Bijan providing prrof? ←

20:57:36 <evrensirin> alanr: fairly good support

Alan Ruttenberg: fairly good support ←

20:58:01 <evrensirin> alanr: who likes option 3?

Alan Ruttenberg: who likes option 3? ←

20:58:09 <Elisa> I would be interested at least 1 and 2

Elisa Kendall: I would be interested at least 1 and 2 ←

20:58:29 <evrensirin> markusk: you can still have easy keys and proper ifdp

Markus Krötzsch: you can still have easy keys and proper ifdp ←

20:58:32 <evrensirin> bijan: yes

Bijan Parsia: yes ←

20:58:51 <evrensirin> alanr: thanks for coming

Alan Ruttenberg: thanks for coming ←

20:59:13 <sandro> carsten: thanks to chairs

Unknown carsten: thanks to chairs [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:59:15 <sandro> ADJOURN

Sandro Hawke: ADJOURN ←

21:01:13 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←

21:01:13 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-owl-irc#T21-01-13

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-owl-irc#T21-01-13 ←

Formatted by CommonScribe