Meeting Record

OWL Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 03 April 2008

Seen

Achille Fokoue, Alan Ruttenberg, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Bijan Parsia, Boris Motik, Deborah McGuinness, Elisa Kendall, Evan Wallace, Evren Sirin, Ian Horrocks, Ivan Herman, Jeremy Carroll, Jie Bao, Joanne Luciano, Markus Krötzsch, Michael Smith, Michael Schneider, Peter Patel-Schneider, Rinke Hoekstra, Sandro Hawke, Uli Sattler, Unknown Deb_McGuinness, Unknown Meeting_Room, Unknown Owlf2f, Unknown cgi-irc, Unknown ekw, Unknown jjc2, Unknown jjc, Unknown meetingRoom, Unknown thomassch, Unknown zBijan, Zhe Wu

Scribe

Unknown jjc, Michael Schneider, Michael Smith, Joanne Luciano, Unknown ekw, Bijan Parsia, Boris Motik

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

thanks to Clark and Parsia link
we use the word "profile" instead of "fragment" throughout what has been called Fragments, with a reference to logic fragments, and explanation of the term "profiles"; and the title for now is "[OWL 1.1 Web Ontology Language] Profiles" link
Let the TR actually keep the (yellow) wg-review-notes, with a switch to turn them on, default to off --- subject to W3C PubRules. link
Publish Profiles (formerly known as Fragments) on or soon after Apr 8, given the changed agreed to in the past hour. link
delete current example, add pointer to primer, and have Hello World in Intro (eg bicycle subclassof vehicle) link
Publish "XML Serialization" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting. link
Publish "XML Serialization" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting. link
Removing the paragraph from Primer beginning "It is this embracing of incompleteness..." link
Close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding roundtripping text to the RDF Mapping document. link
Resolve ISSUE-51 by saying the name is "OWL 2" link
Publish new versions of Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF with the ONLY change being the "1.1" -> "2" name change. link
DL does not have certain OWL Full entailments. OWL-R does not have certain OWL Full entailments. Vendors can implement other/related languages if they want. link
Close ISSUE-90, resolved. We will hack the RDF mapping and functional syntax as necessary to allow DeprecatedClass and DeprecatedProperty to work as in OWL 1 link
Close ISSUE-91, with text saying not to do this (ontology properties should only be used to relate ontologies -- if you go against our advice, you're on your own. link

Topics

Primer
OWL 1.1 Full Semantics Issues
Roadmap and design principles
review of timeline
Backward Compatibility
backwards compatibility goals
issue 100
-1 for OWL 3
OWL 2 Full Semantics Issues

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12:48:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-owl-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-owl-irc ←

12:48:30 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←

12:48:32 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be OWLWG

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be OWLWG ←

12:48:32 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot-ng

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot-ng ←

12:48:33 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: OWL Working Group Teleconference

12:48:33 <trackbot-ng> Date: 03 April 2008

12:49:28 <sandro> zakim, room for 5?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, room for 5? ←

12:49:29 <Zakim> ok, sandro; conference Team_(owl)12:49Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1349Z

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; conference Team_(owl)12:49Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1349Z ←

13:08:52 <Zakim> Team_(owl)12:49Z has now started

(No events recorded for 19 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)12:49Z has now started ←

13:09:00 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←

13:09:03 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←

13:09:04 <Zakim> Team_(owl)12:49Z has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)12:49Z has ended ←

13:09:04 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Sandro ←

13:09:54 <sandro> zakim, room for 5 for 480 minutes?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, room for 5 for 480 minutes? ←

13:09:55 <Zakim> ok, sandro; conference Team_(owl)13:09Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 480 minutes until 2109Z

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; conference Team_(owl)13:09Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 480 minutes until 2109Z ←

13:10:20 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2   CONFERENCE CODE 26632

Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2 CONFERENCE CODE 26632 ←

13:11:22 <sandro> scribenick: jjc

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(Scribe set to Unknown jjc)

13:21:52 <jjc2> scribenick jjc2

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc2' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

Unknown jjc2: scribenick jjc2 ←

13:22:08 <jjc2> RollCall:

Scribe problem: the name 'RollCall' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown RollCall: [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:22:18 <jjc2> Boris, Peter, Bernardo, Rinke

Unknown jjc2: Boris, Peter, Bernardo, Rinke ←

13:22:45 <jjc2> Marcus, Deb, Michael Schneider,

Unknown jjc2: Marcus, Deb, Michael Schneider, ←

13:22:51 <jjc2> Carston, Achille

Unknown jjc2: Carston, Achille ←

13:22:58 <jjc2> JaoBao

Unknown jjc2: JaoBao ←

13:23:02 <jjc2> Evren, MikeSmith

Unknown jjc2: Evren, MikeSmith ←

13:23:10 <jjc2> Bijan, Uli,

Unknown jjc2: Bijan, Uli, ←

13:23:48 <jjc2> Thomas Schneider, Jeremy, Evan, Sandro, Joanna, Ian, Alan

Unknown jjc2: Thomas Schneider, Jeremy, Evan, Sandro, Joanna, Ian, Alan ←

13:23:50 <jjc2> ===

Unknown jjc2: === ←

13:23:59 <jjc2> Hanson Graves, Lockheed Martin

Unknown jjc2: Hanson Graves, Lockheed Martin ←

13:24:05 <jjc2> Alex Tucker

Unknown jjc2: Alex Tucker ←

13:24:17 <msmith> petr kremen

Michael Smith: petr kremen ←

13:24:31 <jjc2> Frances Jwa

Unknown jjc2: Frances Jwa ←

13:24:42 <jjc2> Francis Gasse

Unknown jjc2: Francis Gasse ←

13:24:51 <jjc2> delete - 2

Unknown jjc2: delete - 2 ←

13:25:13 <msmith> mike grove

Michael Smith: mike grove ←

13:25:13 <thomassch> Petr Kremen

Scribe problem: the name 'thomassch' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown thomassch: Petr Kremen ←

13:25:20 <jjc2> Michael Grove,

Unknown jjc2: Michael Grove, ←

13:25:36 <jjc2> Dimitri Univ of Manchester

Unknown jjc2: Dimitri Univ of Manchester ←

13:25:48 <jjc2> (from === are observers)

Unknown jjc2: (from === are observers) ←

13:25:59 <jjc2> + thomas schneider as observer

Unknown jjc2: + thomas schneider as observer ←

13:26:39 <jjc2> Peter arranges dinner, sponsered by Clark&Parsia

Unknown jjc2: Peter arranges dinner, sponsered by Clark&Parsia ←

13:26:49 <jjc2> 22 for dinner

Unknown jjc2: 22 for dinner ←

13:27:04 <jjc2> Proposed: Vote of thanks to Clark and Parsia

PROPOSED: Vote of thanks to Clark and Parsia ←

13:27:12 <jjc2> Resolved: thanks to Clark and Parsia

RESOLVED: thanks to Clark and Parsia ←

13:28:14 <sandro> show up at 7.   800 W Diamond Ave.

Sandro Hawke: show up at 7. 800 W Diamond Ave. ←

13:28:51 <jjc2> some people have not paid ... (scribe decides not to minute who!)

Unknown jjc2: some people have not paid ... (scribe decides not to minute who!) ←

13:30:22 <jjc2> Agenda review: Ian

Unknown jjc2: Agenda review: Ian ←

13:30:37 <jjc2> Thurs am - discussion candidate FPWD docs

Unknown jjc2: Thurs am - discussion candidate FPWD docs ←

13:31:13 <jjc2> Thurs pm - roadmap

Unknown jjc2: Thurs pm - roadmap ←

13:31:17 <jjc2> and timeline

Unknown jjc2: and timeline ←

13:31:30 <jjc2> Thurs pm - 2nd session - OWL 1.1 Full

Unknown jjc2: Thurs pm - 2nd session - OWL 1.1 Full ←

13:32:09 <jjc2> Fri am 1 - RDF mapping

Unknown jjc2: Fri am 1 - RDF mapping ←

13:32:30 <jjc2> some of these issues have been roadblocks

Unknown jjc2: some of these issues have been roadblocks ←

13:32:36 <jjc2> Fri am 2 other issues

Unknown jjc2: Fri am 2 other issues ←

13:32:46 <jjc2> Fri pm TF reports

Unknown jjc2: Fri pm TF reports ←

13:33:22 <jjc2> Jeremy: 18.00 is a late end time

Jeremy Carroll: 18.00 is a late end time [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:33:29 <jjc2> Ian: who needs to leave before

Ian Horrocks: who needs to leave before [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:33:32 <jjc2> JimBao 4pm

Unknown jjc2: JimBao 4pm ←

13:33:35 <jjc2> Peter 5.45

Unknown jjc2: Peter 5.45 ←

13:33:42 <jjc2> Joanne 5

Unknown jjc2: Joanne 5 ←

13:34:30 <jjc2> Ian: will try to adjust agenda to finish by 4.30

Ian Horrocks: will try to adjust agenda to finish by 4.30 [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:34:57 <jjc2> First session begins

Unknown jjc2: First session begins ←

13:35:06 <jjc2> Agendum: Publication Schedule

Scribe problem: the name 'Agendum' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Agendum: Publication Schedule [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:35:23 <jjc2> Ian - straw poll on each doc - are we ready to publish?

Unknown jjc2: Ian - straw poll on each doc - are we ready to publish? ←

13:35:39 <jjc2> Alan: expectations for publication

Alan Ruttenberg: expectations for publication [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:35:48 <jjc2> goal is to get current work out for review

Unknown jjc2: goal is to get current work out for review ←

13:35:52 <jjc2> do not have to be complete

Unknown jjc2: do not have to be complete ←

13:36:01 <jjc2> it is common to have a mark - this is incomplete

Unknown jjc2: it is common to have a mark - this is incomplete ←

13:36:18 <jjc2> judgement is: is it harmful to publish this - it is good to get things out as quick as possible

Unknown jjc2: judgement is: is it harmful to publish this - it is good to get things out as quick as possible ←

13:36:44 <jjc2> poll is with the sort of editorial changes we migth expect over the next couple of days can we publish tuesday?

Unknown jjc2: poll is with the sort of editorial changes we migth expect over the next couple of days can we publish tuesday? ←

13:37:43 <jjc2> deb: what changes should we be expecting before we vote in straw poll

Deborah McGuinness: what changes should we be expecting before we vote in straw poll [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:37:56 <jjc2> sandro: vote expecting your small reasonable changes to have been made

Sandro Hawke: vote expecting your small reasonable changes to have been made [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:38:36 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: Given some editorial changes that we might determine in this meeting, to be made in the next couple of days, would you agree to publish Primer on Apr 8?

STRAWPOLL: Given some editorial changes that we might determine in this meeting, to be made in the next couple of days, would you agree to publish Primer on Apr 8? ←

13:38:37 <jjc2> Prime, given some editorial changes to be decided made in the next coupleo f days are we ready to publish as a FPWD on April 8th

Unknown jjc2: Prime, given some editorial changes to be decided made in the next coupleo f days are we ready to publish as a FPWD on April 8th ←

13:38:48 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

13:38:50 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1 ←

13:38:50 <uli_> +1

Uli Sattler: +1 ←

13:38:52 <evrensirin> +1

Evren Sirin: +1 ←

13:38:53 <pfps> +1 to publish primer

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to publish primer ←

13:38:53 <bijan> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1 ←

13:39:06 <jjc2> lots of hands in favour

Unknown jjc2: lots of hands in favour ←

13:39:27 <jjc2> deborah no

Unknown jjc2: deborah no ←

13:39:38 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: Given some editorial changes that we might determine in this meeting, to be made in the next couple of days, would you agree to publish Fragments on Apr 8?

STRAWPOLL: Given some editorial changes that we might determine in this meeting, to be made in the next couple of days, would you agree to publish Fragments on Apr 8? ←

13:39:40 <jjc2> several abstentions

Unknown jjc2: several abstentions ←

13:39:56 <jjc2> more lots in favour

Unknown jjc2: more lots in favour ←

13:40:13 <jjc2> none against

Unknown jjc2: none against ←

13:40:16 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: Given some editorial changes that we might determine in this meeting, to be made in the next couple of days, would you agree to publish XML Serialization on Apr 8?

STRAWPOLL: Given some editorial changes that we might determine in this meeting, to be made in the next couple of days, would you agree to publish XML Serialization on Apr 8? ←

13:40:59 <jjc2> lots in favour

Unknown jjc2: lots in favour ←

13:41:29 <jjc2> none against

Unknown jjc2: none against ←

13:41:42 <jjc2> side comment about relax ng ... ignored

Unknown jjc2: side comment about relax ng ... ignored ←

13:42:12 <jjc2> Ian: we will go in reverse order of contention, start with fragments

Ian Horrocks: we will go in reverse order of contention, start with fragments [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:42:22 <jjc2> Sandro: are we going to publish other docs?

Sandro Hawke: are we going to publish other docs? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:42:33 <jjc2> Ian: no - we discussed at telecon and decided against.

Ian Horrocks: no - we discussed at telecon and decided against. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:44:01 <sandro> JJC: I had few MUST fix editorial changes, and the one has been fixed, but there are weaknesses I would like fixed.   1: the name.   2: abstract and intro are quite poor (an obstacle to decent review by the public).   3: I would really like a comment that we haven't discussion, on OWL-R, ... it's currently phrased that...

Scribe problem: the name 'JJC' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown JJC: I had few MUST fix editorial changes, and the one has been fixed, but there are weaknesses I would like fixed. 1: the name. 2: abstract and intro are quite poor (an obstacle to decent review by the public). 3: I would really like a comment that we haven't discussion, on OWL-R, ... it's currently phrased that... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:44:30 <sandro> JJC:   It should be: OWL-R implementations CAN provide OWL-Full entailments.    The document doesn't say that.

Unknown JJC: It should be: OWL-R implementations CAN provide OWL-Full entailments. The document doesn't say that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:46:17 <sandro> ACTION: Jeremy to RAISE issue on relationship between OWL-R non-entailments and OWL-Full entailments, and link to it from Fragments as EDITORIAL NOTE.

ACTION: Jeremy to RAISE issue on relationship between OWL-R non-entailments and OWL-Full entailments, and link to it from Fragments as EDITORIAL NOTE. ←

13:46:17 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-117 - RAISE issue on relationship between OWL-R non-entailments and OWL-Full entailments, and link to it from Fragments as EDITORIAL NOTE. [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-117 - RAISE issue on relationship between OWL-R non-entailments and OWL-Full entailments, and link to it from Fragments as EDITORIAL NOTE. [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2008-04-10]. ←

13:48:24 <sandro> ACTION: Carston to draft intro text for Fragments given high-level motivation, and add it into draft, as per his OWLED presentation

ACTION: Carston to draft intro text for Fragments given high-level motivation, and add it into draft, as per his OWLED presentation ←

13:48:24 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Carston

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - Carston ←

13:48:30 <sandro> ACTION: Carsten to draft intro text for Fragments given high-level motivation, and add it into draft, as per his OWLED presentation

ACTION: Carsten to draft intro text for Fragments given high-level motivation, and add it into draft, as per his OWLED presentation ←

13:48:30 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Carsten

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - Carsten ←

13:48:49 <sandro> ACTION: carsten to draft intro text for Fragments given high-level motivation, and add it into draft, as per his OWLED presentation

ACTION: carsten to draft intro text for Fragments given high-level motivation, and add it into draft, as per his OWLED presentation ←

13:48:49 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - carsten

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - carsten ←

13:49:14 <jjc2> Achille: range has been added to ?? fragment

Achille Fokoue: range has been added to ?? fragment [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:49:28 <jjc2> Achile: as a result we don't have the right restrictions

Scribe problem: the name 'Achile' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Achile: as a result we don't have the right restrictions [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:49:50 <jjc2> Carsten: regarding EL we have a few glitches that lead to intractibility

Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Carsten: regarding EL we have a few glitches that lead to intractibility [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:50:11 <jjc2> Carsten: these are simple errors (editorial)

Unknown Carsten: these are simple errors (editorial) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:50:26 <jjc2> Boris: there is a note in doc that these will change

Boris Motik: there is a note in doc that these will change [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:51:01 <jjc2> Carsten: I could make these changes quickly

Unknown Carsten: I could make these changes quickly [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:51:11 <jjc2> Achile: we could also update references

Unknown Achile: we could also update references [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:51:14 <pfps> +1 to having carsten making change

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to having carsten making change ←

13:51:20 <jjc2> Ian: are we happy to carsten to make these changes

Ian Horrocks: are we happy to carsten to make these changes [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:51:31 <jjc2> Sandro: I would like someone else to review Carsten's changes

Sandro Hawke: I would like someone else to review Carsten's changes [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:51:38 <jjc2> Ian: there are others who can

Ian Horrocks: there are others who can [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:51:51 <sandro> ACTION: Carsten remove features that cause intractable in EL++

ACTION: Carsten remove features that cause intractable in EL++ ←

13:51:51 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Carsten

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - Carsten ←

13:52:01 <sandro> ACTION: Bijan to review Carsten's change

ACTION: Bijan to review Carsten's change ←

13:52:01 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-118 - Review Carsten's change [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-118 - Review Carsten's change [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10]. ←

13:52:15 <sandro> ACTION: Bernardo to review Carsten's charge

ACTION: Bernardo to review Carsten's charge ←

13:52:15 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-119 - Review Carsten's charge [on Bernardo Cuenca Grau - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-119 - Review Carsten's charge [on Bernardo Cuenca Grau - due 2008-04-10]. ←

13:52:22 <jjc2> (abpve discussion was regarding EL++ fragment)

Unknown jjc2: (abpve discussion was regarding EL++ fragment) ←

13:52:43 <jjc2> Deb: we should mention OWL Lite

Deborah McGuinness: we should mention OWL Lite [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:53:13 <jjc2> Jeremy: I would like to say "OWL Lite is deprecated", pfps agrees

Jeremy Carroll: I would like to say "OWL Lite is deprecated", pfps agrees [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:53:33 <sandro> "HJow we are going to document OWL Lite is not yet determined by the WG"

Sandro Hawke: "HJow we are going to document OWL Lite is not yet determined by the WG" ←

13:53:38 <jjc2> Alan: we could add editorial comment: "We haven;t decided what to say about OWL Lite"

Alan Ruttenberg: we could add editorial comment: "We haven;t decided what to say about OWL Lite" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:53:40 <sandro> from Alan.

Sandro Hawke: from Alan. ←

13:54:11 <sandro> Deb: I don't want the people using OWL Lite to think they made a mistake

Deborah McGuinness: I don't want the people using OWL Lite to think they made a mistake [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:54:35 <sandro> Alan: Although we don't specifically document OWL lite in this document, it is the intention of the WG that all OWL Lite ontologiies witll be OWL 1.1 DL ontologies

Alan Ruttenberg: Although we don't specifically document OWL lite in this document, it is the intention of the WG that all OWL Lite ontologiies witll be OWL 1.1 DL ontologies [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:54:47 <jjc2> We all agreed on a sentence ...

Unknown jjc2: We all agreed on a sentence ... ←

13:54:51 <jjc2> that sentence

Unknown jjc2: that sentence ←

13:55:05 <sandro> ACTION: Alan to add sentence "Although we don't specifically document OWL lite in this document, it is the intention of the WG that all OWL Lite ontologiies witll be OWL 1.1 DL ontologies" to Fragments

ACTION: Alan to add sentence "Although we don't specifically document OWL lite in this document, it is the intention of the WG that all OWL Lite ontologiies witll be OWL 1.1 DL ontologies" to Fragments ←

13:55:05 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-120 - Add sentence \"Although we don't specifically document OWL lite in this document, it is the intention of the WG that all OWL Lite ontologiies witll be OWL 1.1 DL ontologies\" to Fragments [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-120 - Add sentence \"Although we don't specifically document OWL lite in this document, it is the intention of the WG that all OWL Lite ontologiies witll be OWL 1.1 DL ontologies\" to Fragments [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-04-10]. ←

13:55:41 <sandro> m_schnei: let's make a WG note which snapshots OWL Lite as in 2004.

Michael Schneider: let's make a WG note which snapshots OWL Lite as in 2004. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:56:06 <sandro> Alan: let's postpone this; eg we may deprecate it.

Alan Ruttenberg: let's postpone this; eg we may deprecate it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:57:12 <jjc2> see ISSUE-107

Unknown jjc2: see ISSUE-107 ←

13:57:15 <sandro> ACTION: m_schnei to RAISE issue about how to refer to OWL Lite as a stable standard

ACTION: m_schnei to RAISE issue about how to refer to OWL Lite as a stable standard ←

13:57:15 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - m_schnei

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - m_schnei ←

13:57:49 <sandro> related to ISSUE-107

Sandro Hawke: related to ISSUE-107 ←

13:58:25 <jjc2> the name of the document.....

Unknown jjc2: the name of the document..... ←

13:59:01 <jjc2> Fragments: peter, boris ...

Scribe problem: the name 'Fragments' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Fragments: peter, boris ... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:59:29 <jjc2> Alan: Ivan requested "profile" as W3C practice as recommended by QA group

Alan Ruttenberg: Ivan requested "profile" as W3C practice as recommended by QA group [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

13:59:58 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0002.html

Sandro Hawke: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0002.html ←

14:00:12 <jjc2> joanne: we should give justification for name in document

Joanne Luciano: we should give justification for name in document [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:00:18 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/NOTE-spec-variability-20050831/#subdivision-profile

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/NOTE-spec-variability-20050831/#subdivision-profile ←

14:00:33 <jjc2> joanne: I personally found the name 'fragments' confusing

Joanne Luciano: I personally found the name 'fragments' confusing [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:00:39 <m_schnei> sandro, is there any precedence of a w3c rec for which "profiles" exist

Michael Schneider: sandro, is there any precedence of a w3c rec for which "profiles" exist ←

14:00:55 <jjc2> proposal for profiles; seconded jjc

Unknown jjc2: proposal for profiles; seconded jjc ←

14:01:12 <jjc2> Ian: will nayone speak against? Pfps holds nose.

Ian Horrocks: will nayone speak against? Pfps holds nose. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:01:44 <jjc2> Bijan: is OWL Full a profile?

Bijan Parsia: is OWL Full a profile? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:01:58 <jjc2> Bijan: are we only using 'profile' for fragment

Bijan Parsia: are we only using 'profile' for fragment [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:02:10 <jjc2> Bernardo: reads wikipedia defn

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: reads wikipedia defn [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:02:28 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←

14:02:28 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←

14:02:29 <Zakim> Team_(owl)13:09Z has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)13:09Z has now started ←

14:02:30 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←

14:02:31 <m_schnei> thanks ivan for example "SVG"

Michael Schneider: thanks ivan for example "SVG" ←

14:03:00 <ivan> to m_schnei : yes, SVG

Ivan Herman: to m_schnei : yes, SVG ←

14:03:09 <sandro> ivan, the room is not dailed in yet ... I'll wait until we have a little pause in the argument.

Sandro Hawke: ivan, the room is not dailed in yet ... I'll wait until we have a little pause in the argument. ←

14:03:45 <m_schnei> i am very indifferent about name, but people use word "fragments" for quite a while now

Michael Schneider: i am very indifferent about name, but people use word "fragments" for quite a while now ←

14:03:58 <jjc2> discussion of whether to raise this is an issue ....

Unknown jjc2: discussion of whether to raise this is an issue .... ←

14:04:17 <sandro> Ian: "In logic, these are often called 'fragments'"

Ian Horrocks: "In logic, these are often called 'fragments'" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:04:31 <jjc2> bernardo: can the word fragments be used in the intro

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: can the word fragments be used in the intro [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:04:45 <jjc2> jeremy and ian: yes if in the context of logic

Unknown jjc2: jeremy and ian: yes if in the context of logic ←

14:04:47 <sandro> to define "profile" link to http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/NOTE-spec-variability-20050831/#subdivision-profile

Sandro Hawke: to define "profile" link to http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/NOTE-spec-variability-20050831/#subdivision-profile ←

14:05:25 <jjc2> alan: the editorial change will be to leave one use of fragment in the intro

Alan Ruttenberg: the editorial change will be to leave one use of fragment in the intro [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:05:42 <jjc2> alan: and to use the word profile instead of fragment throughout

Alan Ruttenberg: and to use the word profile instead of fragment throughout [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:07:10 <sandro> PROPOSED: we use the word "profile" instead of "fragment" throughout what has been called Fragments, with a reference to logic fragments, and explanation of the term "profiles"; and the title is ....@@@

PROPOSED: we use the word "profile" instead of "fragment" throughout what has been called Fragments, with a reference to logic fragments, and explanation of the term "profiles"; and the title is ....@@@ ←

14:07:16 <jjc2> ian: all docs are called OWL 1.1 Web Ontology Language: ...

Ian Horrocks: all docs are called OWL 1.1 Web Ontology Language: ... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:07:31 <sandro> PROPOSED: we use the word "profile" instead of "fragment" throughout what has been called Fragments, with a reference to logic fragments, and explanation of the term "profiles"; and the title for now is "[OWL 1.1 Web Ontology Language] Profiles"

14:07:32 <jjc2> ian: suggests just "Profiles" for the rest of the name

Ian Horrocks: suggests just "Profiles" for the rest of the name [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:07:43 <jjc2> jeremy: there was a nice adjective from Sandro

Jeremy Carroll: there was a nice adjective from Sandro [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:08:10 <jjc2> sandro: but I've forgotten

Sandro Hawke: but I've forgotten [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:08:10 <sandro> JLUCIANO: somehow have the title evocative of Fragments.

Joanne Luciano: somehow have the title evocative of Fragments. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:09:52 <sandro> "Subsetting Profiles"

Sandro Hawke: "Subsetting Profiles" ←

14:10:18 <jjc2> strawpoll: doc title is "profiles"

STRAWPOLL: doc title is "profiles" ←

14:10:20 <sandro> PROPOSED: we use the word "profile" instead of "fragment" throughout what has been called Fragments, with a reference to logic fragments, and explanation of the term "profiles"; and the title for now is "[OWL 1.1 Web Ontology Language] Profiles"

14:10:26 <jjc2> carsten is against other people in favour

Unknown jjc2: carsten is against other people in favour ←

14:10:37 <sandro> Carsten: really, "subset" is a much better word.

Unknown Carsten: really, "subset" is a much better word. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:11:09 <alanr> I like "subset" too, but I like a happy W3C better

Alan Ruttenberg: I like "subset" too, but I like a happy W3C better ←

14:11:19 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

14:11:20 <bijan> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1 ←

14:11:21 <pfps> +1 for profiles (but holding my nose)

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 for profiles (but holding my nose) ←

14:11:21 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←

14:11:24 <IanH> +1

Ian Horrocks: +1 ←

14:11:25 <MarkusK> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1 ←

14:11:26 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1 ←

14:11:27 <evrensirin> +1

Evren Sirin: +1 ←

14:11:27 <Rinke> +!

Rinke Hoekstra: +! ←

14:11:27 <bercuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

14:11:35 <ekw> +1 for profiles

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ekw: +1 for profiles ←

14:11:38 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

14:11:40 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1 ←

14:11:42 <Rinke> obviously meant +1

Rinke Hoekstra: obviously meant +1 ←

14:11:44 <dlm> 0

Deborah McGuinness: 0 ←

14:11:50 <jjc2> +1

Unknown jjc2: +1 ←

14:12:07 <alanr> carsten: 0

Scribe problem: the name 'carsten' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown carsten: 0 [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←

14:12:08 <JLUCIANO> "subset" is a better word

Joanne Luciano: "subset" is a better word ←

14:12:20 <sandro> RESOLVED: we use the word "profile" instead of "fragment" throughout what has been called Fragments, with a reference to logic fragments, and explanation of the term "profiles"; and the title for now is "[OWL 1.1 Web Ontology Language] Profiles"

RESOLVED: we use the word "profile" instead of "fragment" throughout what has been called Fragments, with a reference to logic fragments, and explanation of the term "profiles"; and the title for now is "[OWL 1.1 Web Ontology Language] Profiles" ←

14:12:37 <JLUCIANO> +1 profile in this context is correct

Joanne Luciano: +1 profile in this context is correct ←

14:13:03 <m_schnei> why not first let people get accoustomed to this new name (forgotten ;-)) and then vote later officially

Michael Schneider: why not first let people get accoustomed to this new name (forgotten ;-)) and then vote later officially ←

14:13:49 <jjc2> (Bijan notes that a formal vote should be by organization, but this is not an issue for unopposed resolution)

Unknown jjc2: (Bijan notes that a formal vote should be by organization, but this is not an issue for unopposed resolution) ←

14:14:31 <sandro> ACTION: bercuencagrau implement change of fragments -> profiles

ACTION: bercuencagrau implement change of fragments -> profiles ←

14:14:31 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - bercuencagrau

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - bercuencagrau ←

14:14:36 <sandro> ACTION: bcuencagrau implement change of fragments -> profiles

ACTION: bcuencagrau implement change of fragments -> profiles ←

14:14:36 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - bcuencagrau

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - bcuencagrau ←

14:14:42 <sandro> ACTION: bernardo implement change of fragments -> profiles

ACTION: bernardo implement change of fragments -> profiles ←

14:14:43 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-121 - Implement change of fragments -> profiles [on Bernardo Cuenca Grau - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-121 - Implement change of fragments -> profiles [on Bernardo Cuenca Grau - due 2008-04-10]. ←

14:15:42 <jjc2> zhe: would like to reorganize OWL-R section to get rules first

Zhe Wu: would like to reorganize OWL-R section to get rules first [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:15:58 <jjc2> ian: do we need to do this for FPWD?

Ian Horrocks: do we need to do this for FPWD? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:16:09 <jjc2> zhe: no, an editorial to do note is OK.

Zhe Wu: no, an editorial to do note is OK. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:17:26 <jjc2> alan: a note should be added that the names of the profiles are not stable

Alan Ruttenberg: a note should be added that the names of the profiles are not stable [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:17:31 <sandro> ACTION: Alan to RAISE issue on picking good Names for Profiles AND link to this issue from Profiles document.

ACTION: Alan to RAISE issue on picking good Names for Profiles AND link to this issue from Profiles document. ←

14:17:31 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-122 - RAISE issue on picking good Names for Profiles AND link to this issue from Profiles document. [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-122 - RAISE issue on picking good Names for Profiles AND link to this issue from Profiles document. [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-04-10]. ←

14:18:36 <sandro> Zhe: I can just add a reviewers comment.

Zhe Wu: I can just add a reviewers comment. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:18:40 <m_schnei> zhe can create a branch version of the fragments (oops) document in the Wiki

Michael Schneider: zhe can create a branch version of the fragments (oops) document in the Wiki ←

14:18:55 <sandro> Uli: Flowers around document?

Uli Sattler: Flowers around document? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:19:19 <sandro> Alan: Everyone is happy that the reviewer comments are on the wiki but NOT in publication.

Alan Ruttenberg: Everyone is happy that the reviewer comments are on the wiki but NOT in publication. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:20:53 <jjc2> Sandro: actually reviewers comments have been in, but invisible by CSS

Sandro Hawke: actually reviewers comments have been in, but invisible by CSS [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:21:07 <jjc2> we could have a switch

Unknown jjc2: we could have a switch ←

14:21:14 <sandro> PROPOSED: Let the TR actually keep the (yellow) wg-review-notes, with a switch to turn them on, default to off.

PROPOSED: Let the TR actually keep the (yellow) wg-review-notes, with a switch to turn them on, default to off. ←

14:21:25 <sandro> PROPOSED: Let the TR actually keep the (yellow) wg-review-notes, with a switch to turn them on, default to off --- subject to W3C PubRules.

PROPOSED: Let the TR actually keep the (yellow) wg-review-notes, with a switch to turn them on, default to off --- subject to W3C PubRules. ←

14:21:32 <sandro> RESOLVED: Let the TR actually keep the (yellow) wg-review-notes, with a switch to turn them on, default to off --- subject to W3C PubRules.

RESOLVED: Let the TR actually keep the (yellow) wg-review-notes, with a switch to turn them on, default to off --- subject to W3C PubRules. ←

14:22:37 <pfps> +1 to publish Fragments (Alcatel-Lucent)

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to publish Fragments (Alcatel-Lucent) ←

14:22:48 <bercuencagrau> +1 (Oxford)

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 (Oxford) ←

14:23:00 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

14:23:03 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish Profiles (formerly known as Fragments) on or soon after Apr 8, given the changed agreed to in the past hour.

PROPOSED: Publish Profiles (formerly known as Fragments) on or soon after Apr 8, given the changed agreed to in the past hour. ←

14:23:03 <dlm> +1 publish fragments RPI

Deborah McGuinness: +1 publish fragments RPI ←

14:23:17 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1 ←

14:23:18 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

14:23:18 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

14:23:18 <jjc2> +1 (HP)

Unknown jjc2: +1 (HP) ←

14:23:25 <msmith> +1 (Clark & Parsia)

Michael Smith: +1 (Clark & Parsia) ←

14:23:27 <sandro> Achille: +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:23:30 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

14:23:31 <alanr> +1 publish profiles (science commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 publish profiles (science commons) ←

14:23:33 <bijan> +1 to publish profiles (Manchester)

Bijan Parsia: +1 to publish profiles (Manchester) ←

14:23:40 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

14:23:44 <sandro> +1 to publish Profiles (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 to publish Profiles (W3C) ←

14:23:55 <dlm> i meant profiles for the vote for rpi

Deborah McGuinness: i meant profiles for the vote for rpi ←

14:24:21 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish Profiles (formerly known as Fragments) on or soon after Apr 8, given the changed agreed to in the past hour.

RESOLVED: Publish Profiles (formerly known as Fragments) on or soon after Apr 8, given the changed agreed to in the past hour. ←

14:24:58 <jjc2> Thanks and applause to authors

Unknown jjc2: Thanks and applause to authors ←

14:25:26 <sandro> yes m_schnei  :-)

Sandro Hawke: yes m_schnei :-) ←

14:25:30 <jjc2> XML Serialization

Unknown jjc2: XML Serialization ←

14:26:10 <jjc2> Sandro: we need to have an issue about the namespace, an editorial note

Sandro Hawke: we need to have an issue about the namespace, an editorial note [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:27:21 <sandro> ACTION: Bijan to RAISE issue on namespaces (if necessary) and link to it from document.

ACTION: Bijan to RAISE issue on namespaces (if necessary) and link to it from document. ←

14:27:21 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-123 - RAISE issue on namespaces (if necessary) and link to it from document. [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-123 - RAISE issue on namespaces (if necessary) and link to it from document. [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10]. ←

14:27:39 <jjc2> chairs will accept issues raised as a result of actions in this meeting

Unknown jjc2: chairs will accept issues raised as a result of actions in this meeting ←

14:28:36 <jjc2> Bijan and jeremy: there is a separate issue about the OWL 1.1 namespace, this is different from the syntax namespace

Unknown jjc2: Bijan and jeremy: there is a separate issue about the OWL 1.1 namespace, this is different from the syntax namespace ←

14:28:54 <jjc2> bernardo: there is a reference to 'fragments' in this doc

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: there is a reference to 'fragments' in this doc [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:29:12 <sandro> Bijan to clean up word "fragments" in this document and others.

Sandro Hawke: Bijan to clean up word "fragments" in this document and others. ←

14:30:19 <jjc2> alan: won't the data-object property punning issue tomorrow impact these docs?

Alan Ruttenberg: won't the data-object property punning issue tomorrow impact these docs? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:30:31 <jjc2> jeremy: yes - but let's decide tomorrow

Jeremy Carroll: yes - but let's decide tomorrow [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:30:57 <sandro> Bijan: If you see a typo, just fix it in the wiki ASAP.

Bijan Parsia: If you see a typo, just fix it in the wiki ASAP. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:31:01 <jjc2> bijan: fix typos when you see them

Bijan Parsia: fix typos when you see them [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:31:20 <jjc2> rinke: ??? section 2 is confusing

Rinke Hoekstra: ??? section 2 is confusing [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:31:33 <jjc2> rinke: this should either be exhaustive or non-existent

Rinke Hoekstra: this should either be exhaustive or non-existent [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:32:11 <jjc2> evren: assuming functional syntax is normative are we expecting a mapping from XML syntax to functional syntax

Evren Sirin: assuming functional syntax is normative are we expecting a mapping from XML syntax to functional syntax [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:32:25 <jjc2> bijan: there is a couple of sentences that describe

Bijan Parsia: there is a couple of sentences that describe [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:32:39 <jjc2> ian: two issues: a) examples b) mapping should be explicit

Ian Horrocks: two issues: a) examples b) mapping should be explicit [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:33:00 <jjc2> sandro: a complete example would be silly

Sandro Hawke: a complete example would be silly [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:33:00 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←

14:33:02 <Zakim> Team_(owl)13:09Z has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)13:09Z has ended ←

14:33:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Ivan ←

14:33:10 <jjc2> sandro: but a small example is helpful

Sandro Hawke: but a small example is helpful [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:33:39 <jjc2> alan: the example should be a repeat of some other example

Alan Ruttenberg: the example should be a repeat of some other example [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:33:48 <m_schnei> +1 to sandro on small and useful examples instead of heaving a "complete" example

Michael Schneider: +1 to sandro on small and useful examples instead of heaving a "complete" example ←

14:33:56 <jjc2> bijan: we could have pointer to the primer

Bijan Parsia: we could have pointer to the primer [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:34:02 <jjc2> sandro: I would be happy with this

Sandro Hawke: I would be happy with this [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:34:16 <jjc2> bernardo: so the only doc with examples would be the primer

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: so the only doc with examples would be the primer [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:34:21 <jjc2> bijan: I like that

Bijan Parsia: I like that [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:34:39 <jjc2> lots of positive noises about this idea to examples

Unknown jjc2: lots of positive noises about this idea to examples ←

14:34:45 <sandro> Sandro: Yes!   Let's have the examples in XML_Serialization just be tabs in Primer and Syntax.

Sandro Hawke: Yes! Let's have the examples in XML_Serialization just be tabs in Primer and Syntax. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:34:58 <jjc2> strawpoll: kill example section replaced with pointers to primer

STRAWPOLL: kill example section replaced with pointers to primer ←

14:35:52 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: We remove the examples section and just refer people to Primer, where they can use the XML tab to see examples.

STRAWPOLL: We remove the examples section and just refer people to Primer, where they can use the XML tab to see examples. ←

14:36:03 <jjc2> michael: the examples are not the same, it doesn't make sense to copy it

Scribe problem: the name 'michael' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Michael Smith Michael Schneider Michael Sintek . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown michael: the examples are not the same, it doesn't make sense to copy it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:36:15 <jjc2> ian: no the proposal is not to move the example but to delete it

Ian Horrocks: no the proposal is not to move the example but to delete it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:36:29 <alanr> Sandro: Add query parameter to set default syntax for primer?

Alan Ruttenberg: Sandro, Add query parameter to set default syntax for primer? ←

14:36:50 <jjc2> joanne: do the examples in the primer illustrate the right things?

Joanne Luciano: do the examples in the primer illustrate the right things? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:37:14 <sandro> s/Sandro:/Sandro,/

14:37:43 <m_schnei> jj2, i did not say "copy" but "move", but ian said "kill" :-)

Michael Schneider: jj2, i did not say "copy" but "move", but ian said "kill" :-) ←

14:38:21 <sandro> bercuencagrau: Section 1 Overview -- ending with link to Primer; Section 2 Schema

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Section 1 Overview -- ending with link to Primer; Section 2 Schema [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:38:24 <jjc2> Alan would like the link from serialization to primer to automagically come up in the right syntax

Unknown jjc2: Alan would like the link from serialization to primer to automagically come up in the right syntax ←

14:38:33 <jjc2> Alan claims this cna be done in javascript

Unknown jjc2: Alan claims this cna be done in javascript ←

14:39:18 <jjc2> Alan: the schema referred to in this doc needs to be accessible from this doc

Alan Ruttenberg: the schema referred to in this doc needs to be accessible from this doc [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:39:37 <jjc2> Ian: points out that Alan is out of order

Ian Horrocks: points out that Alan is out of order [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:39:54 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: We remove the examples section and just refer people to Primer, where they can use the XML tab to see examples.

STRAWPOLL: We remove the examples section and just refer people to Primer, where they can use the XML tab to see examples. ←

14:40:31 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1 ←

14:40:31 <pfps> +1 to excise examples and put in pointer to Primer

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to excise examples and put in pointer to Primer ←

14:40:33 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 ←

14:40:34 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

14:40:36 <bercuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

14:40:37 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1 ←

14:40:43 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

14:40:48 <m_schnei> +1 to drop examples (provided that this is our general approach)

Michael Schneider: +1 to drop examples (provided that this is our general approach) ←

14:40:49 <jjc2> lots in favour

Unknown jjc2: lots in favour ←

14:41:27 <sandro> Achille: 0 but we should make the mapping more explicit

Achille Fokoue: 0 but we should make the mapping more explicit [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:41:28 <jjc2> Achille: I liked this example - relationship to mapping - hence I abstain

Achille Fokoue: I liked this example - relationship to mapping - hence I abstain [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:41:32 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←

14:42:21 <sandro> +1 to having a small, complete example in XML_Serialization

Sandro Hawke: +1 to having a small, complete example in XML_Serialization ←

14:42:37 <jjc2> Achille: also the namespace stuff, schemalocation etc, may be absent in primer

Achille Fokoue: also the namespace stuff, schemalocation etc, may be absent in primer [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:43:44 <jjc2> Bijan: but the primer may do these....

Bijan Parsia: but the primer may do these.... [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:43:58 <sandro> +1 Hello World, in XML_Serialization

Sandro Hawke: +1 Hello World, in XML_Serialization ←

14:44:08 <baojie> agree with sandro, a small example in  XML_Serialization, a longer example in Primer

Jie Bao: agree with sandro, a small example in XML_Serialization, a longer example in Primer ←

14:44:20 <jjc2> Joanne: I feel this is important

Joanne Luciano: I feel this is important [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:45:14 <jjc2> Jeremy: let's add a to-do

Jeremy Carroll: let's add a to-do [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:45:23 <jjc2> Ian: let's put helloworld example in intro

Ian Horrocks: let's put helloworld example in intro [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:46:08 <m_schnei> <Ontology name="HelloWorld"/> ;-)

Michael Schneider: <Ontology name="HelloWorld"/> ;-) ←

14:46:43 <sandro> m_schnei :)

Sandro Hawke: m_schnei :) ←

14:46:50 <jjc2> Boris and Ian talk about mapping

Unknown jjc2: Boris and Ian talk about mapping ←

14:47:45 <jjc2> Achille: jeremy's proposal doesn't address mappings, but is otherwise OK

Achille Fokoue: jeremy's proposal doesn't address mappings, but is otherwise OK [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:47:50 <jjc2> Ian: mappings is next

Ian Horrocks: mappings is next [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jjc2 ] ←

14:47:58 <sandro> PROPOSED: delete current example, add pointer to primer, and have Hello World in Intro

PROPOSED: delete current example, add pointer to primer, and have Hello World in Intro ←

14:48:27 <sandro> PROPOSED: delete current example, add pointer to primer, and have Hello World in Intro     (eg bicycle subclassof vehicle)

PROPOSED: delete current example, add pointer to primer, and have Hello World in Intro (eg bicycle subclassof vehicle) ←

14:49:20 <sandro> (RESOLVED silently, Bijan making change, as we move on....)

Sandro Hawke: (RESOLVED silently, Bijan making change, as we move on....) ←

14:50:09 <sandro> RESOLVED: delete current example, add pointer to primer, and have Hello World in Intro     (eg bicycle subclassof vehicle)

RESOLVED: delete current example, add pointer to primer, and have Hello World in Intro (eg bicycle subclassof vehicle) ←

14:50:26 <sandro> (by show of hands)

Sandro Hawke: (by show of hands) ←

14:50:37 <sandro> come back to issue of mapping, after break.

Sandro Hawke: come back to issue of mapping, after break. ←

15:08:10 <alanr> Action: Sandro make sure that namespaces work right in the hello world example, and that the "separate document" link goes to the schema rather than the wiki page

(No events recorded for 17 minutes)

ACTION: Sandro make sure that namespaces work right in the hello world example, and that the "separate document" link goes to the schema rather than the wiki page ←

15:08:10 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-124 - Make sure that namespaces work right in the hello world example, and that the \"separate document\" link goes to the schema rather than the wiki page [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-124 - Make sure that namespaces work right in the hello world example, and that the \"separate document\" link goes to the schema rather than the wiki page [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-04-10]. ←

15:18:16 <sandro> scribenick: m_schnei

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

(Scribe set to Michael Schneider)

15:19:15 <m_schnei> Continuing on "Publication Schedule"

Continuing on "Publication Schedule" ←

15:19:52 <m_schnei> alanr: next point is question about xml mapping

Alan Ruttenberg: next point is question about xml mapping ←

15:22:33 <m_schnei> bijan: suggests to add not "mapping should be enhanced"

Bijan Parsia: suggests to add not "mapping should be enhanced" ←

15:23:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish "XML Serialization" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting.

PROPOSED: Publish "XML Serialization" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting. ←

15:24:25 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish "XML Serialization" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting.

RESOLVED: Publish "XML Serialization" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting. ←

15:24:50 <alanr> +1 (science commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (science commons) ←

15:24:53 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM) ←

15:24:54 <msmith> +1 (Clark & Parsia)

Michael Smith: +1 (Clark & Parsia) ←

15:24:56 <pfps> +1 to publish XML Serialization

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to publish XML Serialization ←

15:24:56 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C) ←

15:24:58 <bijan> +1 to publish XML syntax (Manchester)

Bijan Parsia: +1 to publish XML syntax (Manchester) ←

15:24:59 <dlm> +1 (RPI)

Deborah McGuinness: +1 (RPI) ←

15:24:59 <IanH> +1 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: +1 (Oxford) ←

15:25:00 <bercuencagrau> +1 (Oxford Univ)

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 (Oxford Univ) ←

15:25:01 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

15:25:03 <m_schnei> +1 (FZI)

+1 (FZI) ←

15:25:19 <zwu2> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE) ←

15:25:32 <m_schnei> jeremy: asks about GRDDL

Jeremy Carroll: asks about GRDDL ←

15:25:41 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

15:26:06 <sandro> Bijan is putting in the ed-note linke to ISSUE-97 now.

Sandro Hawke: Bijan is putting in the ed-note linke to ISSUE-97 now. ←

15:26:09 <m_schnei> jeremy: we have already an issue on this

Jeremy Carroll: we have already an issue on this ←

15:26:10 <sandro> (for Jeremy)

Sandro Hawke: (for Jeremy) ←

15:26:17 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish "XML Serialization" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting.

RESOLVED: Publish "XML Serialization" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting. ←

15:26:21 <jjc> +1 (HP with GRDDL change)

Unknown jjc: +1 (HP with GRDDL change) ←

15:26:32 <sandro> (GRDDL == ISSUE-97)

Sandro Hawke: (GRDDL == ISSUE-97) ←

15:26:37 <sandro> Topic: Primer

1. Primer

15:26:38 <m_schnei> alanr: next point is primer

Alan Ruttenberg: next point is primer ←

15:26:54 <m_schnei> alanr: what needs to be changed before vote to publish?

Alan Ruttenberg: what needs to be changed before vote to publish? ←

15:27:27 <m_schnei> deb: what plans exist for the primer to be still to be done

Deborah McGuinness: what plans exist for the primer to be still to be done ←

15:28:31 <m_schnei> bijan: explains list of things he wants to do (scribe did not get all the points)

Bijan Parsia: explains list of things he wants to do (scribe did not get all the points) ←

15:30:18 <m_schnei> discussion about whether deb's issues should be only marked as editorial

discussion about whether deb's issues should be only marked as editorial ←

15:33:32 <sandro> alan: something vaguely like: "The WG is committed to making these domain-specific sections be accessible by professional in the industry.   We particularly solicit comments on whether this is the case"

Alan Ruttenberg: something vaguely like: "The WG is committed to making these domain-specific sections be accessible by professional in the industry. We particularly solicit comments on whether this is the case" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:34:12 <sandro> jjc: Deb, I think you're asking Bijan to reach too-high a bar at this point.

Unknown jjc: Deb, I think you're asking Bijan to reach too-high a bar at this point. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:37:05 <sandro> Zhe: I want diagrams, please.   :-)

Zhe Wu: I want diagrams, please. :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:37:11 <m_schnei> zhe: likes this whole document, but has problems with the database section

Zhe Wu: likes this whole document, but has problems with the database section ←

15:37:28 <sandro> Zhe: I don't agree with the point about "concrete" in the database section.

Zhe Wu: I don't agree with the point about "complete" in the database section. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:37:48 <m_schnei> zhe: disagrees with that database stuff is the most distinguishing point

Zhe Wu: disagrees with that database stuff is the most distinguishing point ←

15:38:25 <evrensirin> s/concrete/complete

15:39:06 <sandro> Sandro: I wonder about a particularly humble editor's note about how we can't possibly understand all the technical backgrounds people are coming from.

Sandro Hawke: I wonder about a particularly humble editor's note about how we can't possibly understand all the technical backgrounds people are coming from. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:39:39 <sandro> Jae: (1) More concete examples

Scribe problem: the name 'Jae' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Jae: (1) More concete examples [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:39:40 <m_schnei> jie: concern that primer is not ok for every one

Jie Bao: concern that primer is not ok for every one ←

15:39:50 <Rinke> I think Zhe rather said that 'completeness' is the most distinguishing point between database and owl -approaches

Rinke Hoekstra: I think Zhe rather said that 'completeness' is the most distinguishing point between database and owl -approaches ←

15:40:57 <m_schnei> alanr: asks for suggestion for concrete words to put as editorial note

Alan Ruttenberg: asks for suggestion for concrete words to put as editorial note ←

15:40:58 <cgi-irc> point 1: more concrete examples

Scribe problem: the name 'cgi-irc' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown cgi-irc: point 1: more concrete examples ←

15:41:15 <m_schnei> bijan: hates database section because he things its wrong

Bijan Parsia: hates database section because he things its wrong ←

15:41:16 <dlm> scribe assist from dlm - my goal is to bring more people in to the document and reduce alienation from communities.  One section in particular, the db section, i believe may not capture why db researchers may come to owl and it may be likely to be confusing.

Deborah McGuinness: scribe assist from dlm - my goal is to bring more people in to the document and reduce alienation from communities. One section in particular, the db section, i believe may not capture why db researchers may come to owl and it may be likely to be confusing. ←

15:41:22 <sandro> cgi-irc is Jae

Sandro Hawke: cgi-irc is Jie ←

15:41:24 <cgi-irc> point 2: make clear the diff between OWL 1.0. and OWL 1.1

Unknown cgi-irc: point 2: make clear the diff between OWL 1.0. and OWL 1.1 ←

15:41:59 <sandro> s/Jae/Jie/

15:42:09 <m_schnei> bijan: still several months of work for the primer to do

Bijan Parsia: still several months of work for the primer to do ←

15:43:58 <m_schnei> sandro: normally there is a sentence "please comment" in the beginning of a WD, perhaps there should be more of these in the documents

Sandro Hawke: normally there is a sentence "please comment" in the beginning of a WD, perhaps there should be more of these in the documents ←

15:44:14 <sandro> ACTION: Bijan to draft the "humble" editor's note / SOTD request for comments for Primer

ACTION: Bijan to draft the "humble" editor's note / SOTD request for comments for Primer ←

15:44:14 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-125 - Draft the \"humble\" editor's note / SOTD request for comments for Primer  [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-125 - Draft the \"humble\" editor's note / SOTD request for comments for Primer [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10]. ←

15:45:30 <m_schnei> alanr: option: remove the offending sentence from the database section?

Alan Ruttenberg: option: remove the offending sentence from the database section? ←

15:46:23 <m_schnei> alanr: option2: remove complete database section?

Alan Ruttenberg: option2: remove complete database section? ←

15:47:40 <m_schnei> straw poll on remove paragraph: 15 people

straw poll on remove paragraph: 15 people ←

15:48:03 <m_schnei> straw poll on remove whole database section: much less votes

straw poll on remove whole database section: much less votes ←

15:50:54 <m_schnei> alanr: jie should put his points into document as note

Alan Ruttenberg: jie should put his points into document as note ←

15:52:25 <sandro> ACTION: Bijan to add a from-community section for OWL 1.0 users, to Primer

ACTION: Bijan to add a from-community section for OWL 1.0 users, to Primer ←

15:52:25 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-126 - Add a from-community section for OWL 1.0 users, to Primer [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-126 - Add a from-community section for OWL 1.0 users, to Primer [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10]. ←

15:52:34 <m_schnei> bijan: (to deb) primer is for non-DL people

Bijan Parsia: (to deb) primer is for non-DL people ←

15:53:32 <jjc> It is this embracing of incompleteness that most distinguishes OWL from databases, driving the different capabilities of OWL and databases.

Unknown jjc: It is this embracing of incompleteness that most distinguishes OWL from databases, driving the different capabilities of OWL and databases. ←

15:53:49 <sandro> PROPOSED: Removing the paragraph from Primer beginning "It is this embracing of incompleteness..."

PROPOSED: Removing the paragraph from Primer beginning "It is this embracing of incompleteness..." ←

15:53:57 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←

15:53:58 <sandro> 0 no opinion

Sandro Hawke: 0 no opinion ←

15:53:58 <Achille> 0

Achille Fokoue: 0 ←

15:54:02 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 ←

15:54:03 <dlm> +1

Deborah McGuinness: +1 ←

15:54:06 <zwu2> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE) ←

15:54:11 <jjc> 0 (I think the WG is micromanaging)

Unknown jjc: 0 (I think the WG is micromanaging) ←

15:54:29 <pfps> 0

Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 ←

15:54:32 <IanH_> 0 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: 0 (Oxford) ←

15:54:33 <bcuencagrau> 0

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: 0 ←

15:54:34 <bmotik> 0

Boris Motik: 0 ←

15:54:35 <baojie> 0

Jie Bao: 0 ←

15:54:35 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1 ←

15:54:37 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

15:54:37 <MarkusK> 0

Markus Krötzsch: 0 ←

15:54:42 <pfps> 0 (and agree with jeremy :-)

Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 (and agree with jeremy :-) ←

15:54:42 <m_schnei> peter: asks about why the whole paragraph should be removed instead of a single sentence

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: asks about why the whole paragraph should be removed instead of a single sentence ←

15:55:13 <sandro> RESOLVED: Removing the paragraph from Primer beginning "It is this embracing of incompleteness..."

RESOLVED: Removing the paragraph from Primer beginning "It is this embracing of incompleteness..." ←

15:55:18 <Zakim> Team_(owl)13:09Z has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)13:09Z has now started ←

15:55:23 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish "Primer" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting.

PROPOSED: Publish "Primer" on or soon after Apr 8, given the changes agreed to so far this meeting. ←

15:55:25 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

15:55:34 <m_schnei> deb: does someone has a list of intended changes?

Deborah McGuinness: does someone has a list of intended changes? ←

15:55:48 <sandro> Elisa, the room hasn't called in yet.   Hold on and we'll do that in a minute.

Sandro Hawke: Elisa, the room hasn't called in yet. Hold on and we'll do that in a minute. ←

15:56:00 <Elisa> thanks :)

Elisa Kendall: thanks :) ←

15:56:01 <alanr> Action: Deb to review primer+editorial changes after Bijan is done making them

ACTION: Deb to review primer+editorial changes after Bijan is done making them ←

15:56:01 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Deb

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - Deb ←

15:56:07 <jjc> +1 (HP)

Unknown jjc: +1 (HP) ←

15:56:18 <msmith> +1 to publish (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 to publish (C&P) ←

15:56:20 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C) ←

15:56:21 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

15:56:22 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

15:56:23 <zwu2> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE) ←

15:56:24 <dlm> dlm will review the primer+editorial changes after bijan does them

Deborah McGuinness: dlm will review the primer+editorial changes after bijan does them ←

15:56:36 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

15:56:37 <pfps> +1 to publish Primer (Alcatel-Lucent)

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to publish Primer (Alcatel-Lucent) ←

15:56:41 <IanH_> Action: dlm to review primer+editorial changes after Bijan is done making them

ACTION: dlm to review primer+editorial changes after Bijan is done making them ←

15:56:41 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - dlm

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - dlm ←

15:56:43 <uli__> +1 (Manchester)

Uli Sattler: +1 (Manchester) ←

15:56:44 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford) ←

15:56:59 <IanH_> Action: Deborah to review primer+editorial changes after Bijan is done making them

ACTION: Deborah to review primer+editorial changes after Bijan is done making them ←

15:56:59 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-127 - Review primer+editorial changes after Bijan is done making them [on Deborah McGuinness - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-127 - Review primer+editorial changes after Bijan is done making them [on Deborah McGuinness - due 2008-04-10]. ←

15:57:06 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

15:57:08 <Achille> +1 (iBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (iBM) ←

15:57:10 <dlm> +1 with updates RPI

Deborah McGuinness: +1 with updates RPI ←

15:57:40 <m_schnei> alanr congratulates authors and wg

alanr congratulates authors and wg ←

15:58:22 <sandro> sandro: congrats to chairs for getting us done an hour early?

Sandro Hawke: congrats to chairs for getting us done an hour early? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:59:02 <msmith> scribenick: msmith

(Scribe set to Michael Smith)

15:59:21 <msmith> topic: OWL 1.1 Full Semantics Issues

2. OWL 1.1 Full Semantics Issues

16:02:03 <msmith> topic: Roadmap and design principles

3. Roadmap and design principles

16:03:33 <sandro> Elisa, we've almost got it.

Sandro Hawke: Elisa, we've almost got it. ←

16:03:35 <sandro> I think.

Sandro Hawke: I think. ←

16:03:46 <sandro> (we're on breaking trying to figure out the phone.)

Sandro Hawke: (we're on breaking trying to figure out the phone.) ←

16:04:04 <sandro> Zakim, what is the code?

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, what is the code? ←

16:04:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro ←

16:04:56 <sandro> [[ "5 minute break" to get phone working. ]]

Sandro Hawke: [[ "5 minute break" to get phone working. ]] ←

16:05:21 <ekw> Elisa we finished with Publication Schedule

Unknown ekw: Elisa we finished with Publication Schedule ←

16:05:38 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←

16:05:55 <sandro> ??P14 is Meeting_Room

Sandro Hawke: ??P14 is Meeting_Room ←

16:05:59 <sandro> Zakim, ??P14 is Meeting_Room

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, ??P14 is Meeting_Room ←

16:05:59 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room; got it ←

16:07:15 <sandro> Elisa, can you hear people chattering?

Sandro Hawke: Elisa, can you hear people chattering? ←

16:07:25 <sandro> Zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, who is on the call? ←

16:07:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall, Meeting_Room

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall, Meeting_Room ←

16:07:45 <sandro> cgi-irc, please change your nick

Sandro Hawke: cgi-irc, please change your nick ←

16:08:00 <cgi-irc> nick jie

Unknown cgi-irc: nick jie ←

16:08:09 <sandro> you need the leading slash....

Sandro Hawke: you need the leading slash.... ←

16:08:19 <sandro> we're actually still on break.

Sandro Hawke: we're actually still on break. ←

16:09:32 <sandro> Elisa?    Could you hear anything there?

Sandro Hawke: Elisa? Could you hear anything there? ←

16:09:47 <jjc> the meeting is restarting.

Unknown jjc: the meeting is restarting. ←

16:09:47 <sandro> This is about as good as it's going to get, I think.

Sandro Hawke: This is about as good as it's going to get, I think. ←

16:10:09 <msmith> alanr: we will start with review of timeline

Alan Ruttenberg: we will start with review of timeline ←

16:10:35 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/OWLCharter.html#deliverables

http://www.w3.org/2007/06/OWLCharter.html#deliverables ←

16:11:02 <msmith> topic: review of timeline

4. review of timeline

16:11:14 <bijan> BTW, XML Syntax is updated per my actions: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/XML_Serialization

Bijan Parsia: BTW, XML Syntax is updated per my actions: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/XML_Serialization ←

16:11:28 <sandro> splendid, Bijan.  :)

Sandro Hawke: splendid, Bijan. :) ←

16:11:29 <msmith> alanr: in one view, there is much work to be done and that could prevent add'l items

Alan Ruttenberg: in one view, there is much work to be done and that could prevent add'l items ←

16:11:31 <bijan> Pls review

Bijan Parsia: Pls review ←

16:11:56 <msmith> ...do we want to commit to this schedule and drop other things.  lets open for discussion

...do we want to commit to this schedule and drop other things. lets open for discussion ←

16:12:40 <msmith> m_schnei: we're making a lot of progress and shouldn't be constrained by a schedule set up front

Michael Schneider: we're making a lot of progress and shouldn't be constrained by a schedule set up front ←

16:12:49 <msmith> alanr: example of something that might not be done?

Alan Ruttenberg: example of something that might not be done? ←

16:13:06 <msmith> m_schnei: its too early to do so, that's my point

Michael Schneider: its too early to do so, that's my point ←

16:13:24 <msmith> ...our previous perception of timing has been incorrect

...our previous perception of timing has been incorrect ←

16:13:51 <msmith> jjc: 6 months ago, rdf mapping was better than it is now, that suggests several more months are needed

Unknown jjc: 6 months ago, rdf mapping was better than it is now, that suggests several more months are needed ←

16:14:03 <msmith> bijan: not all docs must march together

Bijan Parsia: not all docs must march together ←

16:15:47 <msmith> ...I care about all features and have been expanding all the add'l proposals.  I/Manchester is not ready to compromise on them.

...I care about all features and have been expanding all the add'l proposals. I/Manchester is not ready to compromise on them. ←

16:16:14 <msmith> ianh: I agree with Bijan.  Do we need everything to go to last call at the same time?

Ian Horrocks: I agree with Bijan. Do we need everything to go to last call at the same time? ←

16:16:48 <msmith> pfps: rdf mapping is not progressing b/c there are philosophical differences

Peter Patel-Schneider: rdf mapping is not progressing b/c there are philosophical differences ←

16:17:24 <msmith> ... what are the philosophical differences?  In 1.0 WG, once such issues were resolved, things could be very fast

... what are the philosophical differences? In 1.0 WG, once such issues were resolved, things could be very fast ←

16:17:43 <msmith> sandro: to bijan, owl 1.2 is possible, this wg could continue for 10 years

Sandro Hawke: to bijan, owl 1.2 is possible, this wg could continue for 10 years ←

16:17:59 <msmith> ...no promises, etc.

...no promises, etc. ←

16:18:34 <msmith> ...this supports sticking to the current timeline, moving other issues to 1.2

...this supports sticking to the current timeline, moving other issues to 1.2 ←

16:19:21 <msmith> jjc: in general, hp prefers longer gaps before versions.  our target audience needs a perception of stability, and sandro's proposal undermines that

Unknown jjc: in general, hp prefers longer gaps before versions. our target audience needs a perception of stability, and sandro's proposal undermines that ←

16:19:51 <msmith> ...suggest looking at charter to determine what must be at last call when

...suggest looking at charter to determine what must be at last call when ←

16:20:10 <msmith> ...I would personally vote against last call without rqmts doc

...I would personally vote against last call without rqmts doc ←

16:20:31 <msmith> ...it makes sense to do a cluster of docs together

...it makes sense to do a cluster of docs together ←

16:21:26 <msmith> pfps: HPs desire, of slowness, seems antithetical to Web and W3.  i.e., we often hear of web years being 3-4 months

Peter Patel-Schneider: HPs desire, of slowness, seems antithetical to Web and W3. i.e., we often hear of web years being 3-4 months ←

16:21:46 <msmith> jjc: I think I would have difficulty selling sandro's proposal to colleagues

Unknown jjc: I think I would have difficulty selling sandro's proposal to colleagues ←

16:22:09 <msmith> ianh: to pfps on philosophical, I don't see such big philosophical differences

Ian Horrocks: to pfps on philosophical, I don't see such big philosophical differences ←

16:23:04 <msmith> ...on rqmts, yes we need such a doc, but note such rqmts have been gathered, just not pushed into a doc

...on rqmts, yes we need such a doc, but note such rqmts have been gathered, just not pushed into a doc ←

16:23:28 <msmith> bijan: agree with ianh on rqmts being gathered

Bijan Parsia: agree with ianh on rqmts being gathered ←

16:23:56 <msmith> alanr: on user facing docs, we're in good shape on what were the big issues

Alan Ruttenberg: on user facing docs, we're in good shape on what were the big issues ←

16:24:34 <msmith> ...a 1-2 pg quick start guide is part of this

...a 1-2 pg quick start guide is part of this ←

16:24:58 <msmith> ...(scribe missed first of two things)

...(scribe missed first of two things) ←

16:25:15 <msmith> ...I haven't heard other major problems in this area

...I haven't heard other major problems in this area ←

16:25:44 <msmith> ...(review of charter wording and deliverables and current status)

...(review of charter wording and deliverables and current status) ←

16:26:15 <msmith> ...we're in good shape, but new features are outside and not r'qed by charter

...we're in good shape, but new features are outside and not r'qed by charter ←

16:26:28 <msmith> ...we need to be ready to slip schedule or drop these features

...we need to be ready to slip schedule or drop these features ←

16:26:45 <msmith> ...anyone disagree on this characterization?

...anyone disagree on this characterization? ←

16:27:04 <msmith> jjc: on test suite, we need something by last call

Unknown jjc: on test suite, we need something by last call ←

16:27:14 <msmith> alanr: I agree

Alan Ruttenberg: I agree ←

16:27:35 <msmith> jjc: you can't exit CR without test suite

Unknown jjc: you can't exit CR without test suite ←

16:28:31 <msmith> alanr: sandro noted slack in timeline, 3 months for dealing with feedback

Alan Ruttenberg: sandro noted slack in timeline, 3 months for dealing with feedback ←

16:29:02 <msmith> bijan: CR on timeline is generous b/c we have tracking implementations of the features

Bijan Parsia: CR on timeline is generous b/c we have tracking implementations of the features ←

16:29:27 <msmith> jjc: paperwork types will take some time

Unknown jjc: paperwork types will take some time ←

16:29:46 <msmith> sandro: if implementations are tracking, we don't need CR at all

Sandro Hawke: if implementations are tracking, we don't need CR at all ←

16:30:34 <msmith> alanr: more feedback on features vs. time

Alan Ruttenberg: more feedback on features vs. time ←

16:30:40 <msmith> ...?

...? ←

16:31:08 <kendall> achille: stay on track, don't slip for non-charter features

Achille Fokoue: stay on track, don't slip for non-charter features [ Scribe Assist by Elisa Kendall ] ←

16:31:10 <msmith> achille: keep on timeline, not add new features

Achille Fokoue: keep on timeline, not add new features ←

16:31:45 <msmith> zhe: agree with achille, note that vendors have to set a timeline

Zhe Wu: agree with achille, note that vendors have to set a timeline ←

16:32:29 <msmith> bijan: not all the "slip" features weren't on the charter

Bijan Parsia: not all the "slip" features weren't on the charter ←

16:32:59 <msmith> ianh: jeremy voiced hp concern on version numbers, how about IBM and Oracle

Ian Horrocks: jeremy voiced hp concern on version numbers, how about IBM and Oracle ←

16:33:49 <msmith> achille: I think the point is valid and think IBM might agree with HP

Achille Fokoue: I think the point is valid and think IBM might agree with HP ←

16:34:15 <msmith> zhe: I agree

Zhe Wu: I agree ←

16:34:45 <msmith> jluciano: provides example when sticking to timeline for sake of timeline has resulted in poor product

Joanne Luciano: provides example when sticking to timeline for sake of timeline has resulted in poor product ←

16:35:20 <msmith> sandro: if 1.2 option is off the table, schedule takes priority over features

Sandro Hawke: if 1.2 option is off the table, schedule takes priority over features ←

16:35:45 <msmith> achille: clarification, would 1.2 mean new charter, new WG

Achille Fokoue: clarification, would 1.2 mean new charter, new WG ←

16:36:02 <msmith> sandro: no.  this group would work in multiple phases

Sandro Hawke: no. this group would work in multiple phases ←

16:36:32 <msmith> achille: that would be an issue, an ongoing commitment like that

Achille Fokoue: that would be an issue, an ongoing commitment like that ←

16:36:37 <msmith> jjc: its per feature

Unknown jjc: its per feature ←

16:36:42 <msmith> ...nary i don't like

...nary i don't like ←

16:36:49 <msmith> ...easy keys sound good

...easy keys sound good ←

16:37:38 <msmith> ...annotation spaces less clear, can be easily persuaded

...annotation spaces less clear, can be easily persuaded ←

16:38:02 <msmith> bijan: the new features are useful, this shouldn't be so absolute

Bijan Parsia: the new features are useful, this shouldn't be so absolute ←

16:38:21 <msmith> alanr: (scribe missed)

Alan Ruttenberg: (scribe missed) ←

16:38:34 <msmith> m_schnei: examples of impact

Michael Schneider: examples of impact ←

16:38:48 <alanr> If we do a 1.2, then I want to start it immediately after we release last call of 1.1

Alan Ruttenberg: If we do a 1.2, then I want to start it immediately after we release last call of 1.1 ←

16:39:29 <msmith> ... if only semantics is broken it can be fixed, but rdf mapping is broken in a way that impacts owl-full, it can never be fixed

... if only semantics is broken it can be fixed, but rdf mapping is broken in a way that impacts owl-full, it can never be fixed ←

16:40:33 <msmith> rinke: some features are more important than others, that's obvious.  we shouldn't confuse these things

Rinke Hoekstra: some features are more important than others, that's obvious. we shouldn't confuse these things ←

16:40:55 <msmith> ...on 3 features, annotation is most important

...on 3 features, annotation is most important ←

16:41:13 <msmith> jjc: hp is not expecting wg to meet timeline, I can't argue in favor of timeline

Unknown jjc: hp is not expecting wg to meet timeline, I can't argue in favor of timeline ←

16:41:31 <msmith> achille: I agree with rinke, not everything is equally important.

Achille Fokoue: I agree with rinke, not everything is equally important. ←

16:42:11 <msmith> ...slipping for 2-3 months is ok, longer commitment (e.g., 1.2 or another year) is a bigger issue, particularly if for non-essential features

...slipping for 2-3 months is ok, longer commitment (e.g., 1.2 or another year) is a bigger issue, particularly if for non-essential features ←

16:42:58 <msmith> ...on 3 features, nary > annotation > easy keys

...on 3 features, nary > annotation > easy keys ←

16:43:24 <msmith> zhe: if 1.2 is on table, what's the timeline?

Zhe Wu: if 1.2 is on table, what's the timeline? ←

16:43:46 <msmith> alanr: charter schedule is last call at 10 months, 1.2 would be similar

Alan Ruttenberg: charter schedule is last call at 10 months, 1.2 would be similar ←

16:44:02 <msmith> zhe: delay 2-3 mos ok, another year not ok

Zhe Wu: delay 2-3 mos ok, another year not ok ←

16:44:13 <msmith> bijan: year not ok for me either

Bijan Parsia: year not ok for me either ←

16:44:26 <msmith> zhe: on 3 features, no preference

Zhe Wu: on 3 features, no preference ←

16:45:38 <msmith> markus: 2-3 mos ok, longer not, on 3 features annotation > easy >> nary

Markus Krötzsch: 2-3 mos ok, longer not, on 3 features annotation > easy >> nary ←

16:46:09 <dlm> i propose that we collect information about relative importance of proposed additional features in a straw poll probably on the web (to keep records for counting).  I could really use annotations on annotations.

Deborah McGuinness: i propose that we collect information about relative importance of proposed additional features in a straw poll probably on the web (to keep records for counting). I could really use annotations on annotations. ←

16:46:16 <sandro> alan: I hear   priority 1 == what's in now, slippage of 3-4 months is okay for including nary, easykeys, annotations.

Alan Ruttenberg: I hear priority 1 == what's in now, slippage of 3-4 months is okay for including nary, easykeys, annotations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:46:19 <msmith> alanr: first priority is what is on table now, willingness to extend up to ~4 months for new features

Alan Ruttenberg: first priority is what is on table now, willingness to extend up to ~4 months for new features ←

16:46:42 <sandro> Topic: Backward Compatibility

5. Backward Compatibility

16:46:45 <m_schnei> well running projects do not need deadlines :)

Michael Schneider: well running projects do not need deadlines :) ←

16:47:00 <msmith> topic: backwards compatibility goals

6. backwards compatibility goals

16:47:37 <sandro> Alan: this may not be the way we want to ADVERTISE b.c.

Alan Ruttenberg: this may not be the way we want to ADVERTISE b.c. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:48:28 <msmith> statement on table, "Take an OWL DL 1.0 ontology O, serialize it to RDF and reverse map to an OWL DL 1.1 ontology O' in functional style syntax. O and O' have the same models as defined by their respective semantics."

statement on table, "Take an OWL DL 1.0 ontology O, serialize it to RDF and reverse map to an OWL DL 1.1 ontology O' in functional style syntax. O and O' have the same models as defined by their respective semantics." ←

16:49:12 <msmith> jjc: observation - 1.0 is in terms of abstract syntax and semantics, 1.1 is not.

Unknown jjc: observation - 1.0 is in terms of abstract syntax and semantics, 1.1 is not. ←

16:49:23 <msmith> ianh: the first order models are the same

Ian Horrocks: the first order models are the same ←

16:49:34 <msmith> ekw: this is only for DL, not full

Unknown ekw: this is only for DL, not full ←

16:49:45 <msmith> alanr: we have no proposal w.r.t. owl full

Alan Ruttenberg: we have no proposal w.r.t. owl full ←

16:50:03 <msmith> jjc: for full, everything true in 1.0 is true in 1.1

Unknown jjc: for full, everything true in 1.0 is true in 1.1 ←

16:50:11 <msmith> m_schnei: wait for my presentation

Michael Schneider: wait for my presentation ←

16:50:24 <msmith> bijan: can m_schnei inlcude a proposal in his presentation

Bijan Parsia: can m_schnei inlcude a proposal in his presentation ←

16:50:52 <msmith> pfps: what about the annotation exception

Peter Patel-Schneider: what about the annotation exception ←

16:51:05 <msmith> alanr: status of annotations is not resolved, we want to avoid that now

Alan Ruttenberg: status of annotations is not resolved, we want to avoid that now ←

16:51:28 <msmith> alanr: strawpoll on this defn of backwards compat for OWL DL

Alan Ruttenberg: strawpoll on this defn of backwards compat for OWL DL ←

16:51:46 <msmith> ...see virtual unanimity

...see virtual unanimity ←

16:51:55 <msmith> bijan: I object

Bijan Parsia: I object ←

16:52:47 <msmith> ...I'd prefer to allow some small tweaks that would break formal but not de facto backwards

...I'd prefer to allow some small tweaks that would break formal but not de facto backwards ←

16:52:48 <sandro> Bijan: my issue with this defn of backward compatibility is that we may want to change some things -- specifically skolemizing bnodes.

Bijan Parsia: my issue with this defn of backward compatibility is that we may want to change some things -- specifically skolemizing bnodes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:52:51 <msmith> alanr: noted

Alan Ruttenberg: noted ←

16:53:22 <sandro> JJC: my abstain is based on ... @@

Unknown JJC: my abstain is based on ... @@ [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:53:34 <msmith> jjc: I abstained b/c I don't care, we know backwards compat when we see it.  i.e., I agree with Bijan, we shouldn't prejudge some other issues

Unknown jjc: I abstained b/c I don't care, we know backwards compat when we see it. i.e., I agree with Bijan, we shouldn't prejudge some other issues ←

16:53:43 <msmith> topic: issue 100

7. ISSUE-100

16:54:21 <msmith> ianh: (summarizes issue 100) as should we be able to create OWL ontologies that we can't serialize as RDF

Ian Horrocks: (summarizes ISSUE-100) as should we be able to create OWL ontologies that we can't serialize as RDF ←

16:55:35 <msmith> ...we shouldn't have what alanr views as a bug in 1.0 (w.r.t. punning)

...we shouldn't have what alanr views as a bug in 1.0 (w.r.t. punning) ←

16:55:38 <sandro> ian: (clarifies) this is about rdf GRAPHS, not rdf xml.

Ian Horrocks: (clarifies) this is about rdf GRAPHS, not rdf xml. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:55:51 <sandro> ISSUE-100

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-100 ←

16:55:59 <msmith> bijan: objection, same as before, I don't see need to prejudge

Bijan Parsia: objection, same as before, I don't see need to prejudge ←

16:56:20 <msmith> jjc: I agree with Bijan and think this slightly knocks the previous WG

Unknown jjc: I agree with Bijan and think this slightly knocks the previous WG ←

16:56:29 <msmith> alanr: no knocking involved

Alan Ruttenberg: no knocking involved ←

16:56:47 <sandro> alan: I think this rises to a design principle

Alan Ruttenberg: I think this rises to a design principle [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:56:57 <msmith> ...I think it rises to a design principle b/c its relevant to users

...I think it rises to a design principle b/c its relevant to users ←

16:57:53 <msmith> alanr: a proposal was made to me to handle punning for which I didn't have grounds to object to

Alan Ruttenberg: a proposal was made to me to handle punning for which I didn't have grounds to object to ←

16:58:10 <sandro> Peter: WebOnt had "Requirements" and "Objectives".   This could be an Objective.

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: WebOnt had "Requirements" and "Objectives". This could be an Objective. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:58:14 <msmith> pfps: previous wg had objectives, as different from, rqmts

Peter Patel-Schneider: previous wg had objectives, as different from, rqmts ←

16:58:26 <msmith> bijan: you can always object for the specific cases

Bijan Parsia: you can always object for the specific cases ←

16:59:04 <msmith> alanr: object to personalization.  I'm speaking for a community, not trying to "win"

Alan Ruttenberg: object to personalization. I'm speaking for a community, not trying to "win" ←

16:59:25 <msmith> jjc: I agree with alan's design principle, agree with bijan on wg procedure

Unknown jjc: I agree with alan's design principle, agree with bijan on wg procedure ←

16:59:50 <msmith> sandro: perhaps we should record this as a use case

Sandro Hawke: perhaps we should record this as a use case ←

17:00:24 <msmith> ianh: there was a proposal this be a "design objective"

Ian Horrocks: there was a proposal this be a "design objective" ←

17:00:43 <msmith> alanr: what are our design principles, what are our rqmts

Alan Ruttenberg: what are our design principles, what are our rqmts ←

17:01:36 <msmith> uli: this design principle could conflict with some future case we don't know about and we should prohibit that case now

Uli Sattler: this design principle could conflict with some future case we don't know about and we should prohibit that case now ←

17:01:54 <msmith> jjc: this should be in a document, not an issue

Unknown jjc: this should be in a document, not an issue ←

17:02:08 <msmith> sandro: having rqmts that conflict is normal

Sandro Hawke: having rqmts that conflict is normal ←

17:02:23 <msmith> ...this rqmt conflicting with a future one is ok

...this rqmt conflicting with a future one is ok ←

17:02:50 <msmith> ...I agree with jeremy on procedure

...I agree with jeremy on procedure ←

17:03:05 <msmith> bijan: apology to alan if taken personally

Bijan Parsia: apology to alan if taken personally ←

17:03:30 <msmith> ...I object to future debates being resolved by appeal to a design principle

...I object to future debates being resolved by appeal to a design principle ←

17:04:08 <msmith> ...I believe your previous perception was incorrect and that you can object to specific issues w/o such a principle

...I believe your previous perception was incorrect and that you can object to specific issues w/o such a principle ←

17:05:12 <msmith> ...I think there is some issue with re-opening in the future b/c alan is a chair and has more significant power w.r.t issues

...I think there is some issue with re-opening in the future b/c alan is a chair and has more significant power w.r.t issues ←

17:05:43 <msmith> ianh: adjourn for lunch

Ian Horrocks: adjourn for lunch ←

17:06:28 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

17:59:55 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

(No events recorded for 53 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

18:06:58 <msmith> scribenick: JLUCIANO

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

(Scribe set to Joanne Luciano)

18:08:00 <Zakim> -Meeting_Room

Scribe problem: the name 'Meeting_Room' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Meeting_Room ←

18:08:07 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

18:08:08 <Zakim> Team_(owl)13:09Z has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)13:09Z has ended ←

18:08:11 <Zakim> Attendees were Elisa_Kendall, Meeting_Room

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Elisa_Kendall, Meeting_Room ←

18:08:30 <JLUCIANO> jjc: discussing tech issues seems a good approach,

Unknown jjc: discussing tech issues seems a good approach, ←

18:08:59 <JLUCIANO> alan: round-tripping with RDF winds up with same set of modules

Alan Ruttenberg: round-tripping with RDF winds up with same set of modules ←

18:09:24 <JLUCIANO> jjc: add one or two sentences to current doc. if it turns out to be a bug then we fix it.

Unknown jjc: add one or two sentences to current doc. if it turns out to be a bug then we fix it. ←

18:09:45 <Zakim> Team_(owl)13:09Z has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)13:09Z has now started ←

18:09:52 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

18:10:16 <JLUCIANO> PROPOSE to close issue 100 as resolved by adding round tripping text to the mapping document

PROPOSE to close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding round tripping text to the mapping document ←

18:10:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding roundtripping text to the RDF Mapping document.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding roundtripping text to the RDF Mapping document. ←

18:10:35 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

18:10:36 <jjc> jeremy proposed

Unknown jjc: jeremy proposed ←

18:10:36 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1 ←

18:10:37 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1 ←

18:10:38 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 ←

18:10:40 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1 ←

18:10:49 <IanH_> +1

Ian Horrocks: +1 ←

18:10:49 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding roundtripping text to the RDF Mapping document.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding roundtripping text to the RDF Mapping document. ←

18:10:51 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ←

18:10:56 <bijan> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1 ←

18:10:57 <MarkusK> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1 ←

18:11:04 <JLUCIANO> +1

+1 ←

18:11:07 <sandro> Zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, who is on the call? ←

18:11:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall ←

18:11:11 <Elisa> +1

Elisa Kendall: +1 ←

18:11:18 <dlm> waiting for reposting of proposal

Deborah McGuinness: waiting for reposting of proposal ←

18:11:27 <uli__> ?

Uli Sattler: ? ←

18:11:32 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding roundtripping text to the RDF Mapping document.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding roundtripping text to the RDF Mapping document. ←

18:11:39 <dlm> +1 dlm (RPI)

Deborah McGuinness: +1 dlm (RPI) ←

18:11:41 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1 ←

18:11:42 <alanr> +1 (science commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (science commons) ←

18:11:44 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

18:11:54 <JLUCIANO> +9 (MITRE)

+9 (MITRE) ←

18:12:01 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

18:12:03 <JLUCIANO> OOPS! +1 (MITRE)

OOPS! +1 (MITRE) ←

18:12:09 <IanH_> +1

Ian Horrocks: +1 ←

18:12:13 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1 ←

18:12:21 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←

18:12:30 <ekw> +1

Unknown ekw: +1 ←

18:12:32 <uli__> +1 (Manchester)

Uli Sattler: +1 (Manchester) ←

18:12:55 <pfps> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding roundtripping text to the RDF Mapping document.

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-100 as resolved by adding roundtripping text to the RDF Mapping document. ←

18:12:56 <sandro> zakim, dial owlf2f

Sandro Hawke: zakim, dial owlf2f ←

18:12:56 <Zakim> ok, sandro; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; the call is being made ←

18:12:58 <Zakim> +Owlf2f

Zakim IRC Bot: +Owlf2f ←

18:14:02 <JLUCIANO> Language Name

Language Name ←

18:14:19 <JLUCIANO> PROPOSED: by Alan Call our product OWL 1.1

PROPOSED: by Alan Call our product OWL 1.1 ←

18:14:24 <kendall> and in press releases :)

Elisa Kendall: and in press releases :) ←

18:14:32 <JLUCIANO> SECOND: Bijan

Scribe problem: the name 'SECOND' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown SECOND: Bijan ←

18:15:49 <Zakim> -Owlf2f

Scribe problem: the name 'Owlf2f' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Owlf2f ←

18:15:53 <kendall> there's some marketing appeal to "OWL 2.0", fwiw

Elisa Kendall: there's some marketing appeal to "OWL 2.0", fwiw ←

18:16:02 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←

18:16:10 <JLUCIANO> jjc: from some previous WWC doc, a point release should be minor shift, this seems more like a major shift and suggests OWL 2.0

Unknown jjc: from some previous WWC doc, a point release should be minor shift, this seems more like a major shift and suggests OWL 2.0 ←

18:16:17 <sandro> Elisa, I'm baffled.   :-/

Sandro Hawke: Elisa, I'm baffled. :-/ ←

18:16:18 <dlm> bijan is stating your point elisa - do you want to speak?

Deborah McGuinness: bijan is stating your point elisa - do you want to speak? ←

18:16:56 <JLUCIANO> Bijan: Elisa suggests 2.0 because changes in structuarl syntax affects the UML form that perspective

Bijan Parsia: Elisa suggests 2.0 because changes in structuarl syntax affects the UML form that perspective ←

18:17:00 <Elisa> I think we should seriously consider "2.0", given the change in functional syntax.

Elisa Kendall: I think we should seriously consider "2.0", given the change in functional syntax. ←

18:17:05 <JLUCIANO> Evan: agrees from tha tperspective

Evan Wallace: agrees from tha tperspective ←

18:18:06 <JLUCIANO> Sandro: Concern about backwards compability that may not hold for 2.0

Sandro Hawke: Concern about backwards compability that may not hold for 2.0 ←

18:19:04 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, what is the code? ←

18:19:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro ←

18:19:22 <JLUCIANO> Michael: personal feeling - most docs start with OWL 1.1, few but useful features

Scribe problem: the name 'Michael' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Michael Smith Michael Schneider Michael Sintek . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Michael: personal feeling - most docs start with OWL 1.1, few but useful features ←

18:20:31 <Elisa> Unless we simplify the functional/structural syntax/BNF to be closer to OWL 1.0, though, we at OMG would disagree with that position

Elisa Kendall: Unless we simplify the functional/structural syntax/BNF to be closer to OWL 1.0, though, we at OMG would disagree with that position ←

18:20:38 <JLUCIANO> Achille: Not much opinion on Name, IBM doesn't care, but concerned that will adding more will delay and prolong the process

Achille Fokoue: Not much opinion on Name, IBM doesn't care, but concerned that will adding more will delay and prolong the process ←

18:20:55 <JLUCIANO> Michael: no new stuff, what we have now is a big change

Unknown Michael: no new stuff, what we have now is a big change ←

18:21:53 <JLUCIANO> Zhe: From Oracle, Oracle produces database, OWL 2.0 form marketing pt of view implies new features and supports it

Zhe Wu: From Oracle, Oracle produces database, OWL 2.0 form marketing pt of view implies new features and supports it ←

18:22:37 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←

18:22:37 <JLUCIANO> Bijan: Keeping OMG in mind, regardless of naming issues, the fact that we're changing it from their perspective we need to listen and understand more

Bijan Parsia: Keeping OMG in mind, regardless of naming issues, the fact that we're changing it from their perspective we need to listen and understand more ←

18:22:52 <sandro> Zakim, ??P14 is Meeting_Room

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, ??P14 is Meeting_Room ←

18:22:52 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room; got it ←

18:23:28 <JLUCIANO> Bijan: Stability vs change, refers back to previous discussion about small vs big changes, and perceptions

Bijan Parsia: Stability vs change, refers back to previous discussion about small vs big changes, and perceptions ←

18:23:57 <JLUCIANO> Bijan: not a big change

Bijan Parsia: not a big change ←

18:25:17 <JLUCIANO> Sandro: what would clinch this decision are there other major changes in mind for the future?

Sandro Hawke: what would clinch this decision are there other major changes in mind for the future? ←

18:25:50 <JLUCIANO> Bijan:  Had sorted by his thoughts about the size of change, suggests going back and looking at what he thought then

Bijan Parsia: Had sorted by his thoughts about the size of change, suggests going back and looking at what he thought then ←

18:26:20 <sandro> Jeremy: owl1.1 changes api, so that's big

Jeremy Carroll: owl1.1 changes api, so that's big [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:26:54 <JLUCIANO> Alan: Agrees that changes API is big, though he's not done that

Alan Ruttenberg: Agrees that changes API is big, though he's not done that ←

18:26:58 <sandro> alan: owl api change means I have to change my code.

Alan Ruttenberg: owl api change means I have to change my code. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:28:22 <bmotik> I've implemented the resolution of ISSUE-100 and have added a note about this to the issue. Here is the diff: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=Mapping_to_RDF_Graphs&diff=5317&oldid=5315

Boris Motik: I've implemented the resolution of ISSUE-100 and have added a note about this to the issue. Here is the diff: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=Mapping_to_RDF_Graphs&diff=5317&oldid=5315 ←

18:28:42 <JLUCIANO> Matt Horridge: re: OWL API were needed anyway, i.e. for OWL 1.1 and could have put them in previous version

Matt Horridge: re: OWL API were needed anyway, i.e. for OWL 1.1 and could have put them in previous version ←

18:28:51 <sandro> sandro: How could we ever have industry consensus on "breaking OWL" ?

Sandro Hawke: How could we ever have industry consensus on "breaking OWL" ? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:29:14 <alanr> An example of a non-backward compatible change to OWL that we might want to have is hilog semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: An example of a non-backward compatible change to OWL that we might want to have is hilog semantics ←

18:29:17 <JLUCIANO> last coment from Horridge --correction, were needed for OWL 1.0 not 1.1

last coment from Horridge --correction, were needed for OWL 1.0 not 1.1 ←

18:29:24 <sandro> Kendall: This is a marketing decision.  Don't make it for technical reasons.

Elisa Kendall: This is a marketing decision. Don't make it for technical reasons. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:30:01 <JLUCIANO> Michael: Can we try to compare with other W3C standards?

Unknown Michael: Can we try to compare with other W3C standards? ←

18:30:06 <alanr> +1 to Kendall

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 to Kendall ←

18:30:24 <kendall> Kendall: well, don't make it primarily on technical grounds, anyway. :>

Elisa Kendall: well, don't make it primarily on technical grounds, anyway. :> [ Scribe Assist by Elisa Kendall ] ←

18:30:32 <JLUCIANO> Bijan: we have different opinions of what's huge

Bijan Parsia: we have different opinions of what's huge ←

18:30:58 <JLUCIANO> jjc: owl 11 would call possible more typos than 12

Unknown jjc: owl 11 would call possible more typos than 20 ←

18:31:17 <alanr> s

Alan Ruttenberg: s ←

18:31:20 <JLUCIANO> Carsten: can we draw on history

Unknown Carsten: can we draw on history ←

18:31:23 <alanr> s/12/20/

18:31:31 <JLUCIANO> Carsten: tends to think of this as 2.0

Unknown Carsten: tends to think of this as 2.0 ←

18:31:43 <sandro> sandro: lot of 2.0 and 1.1 type of standards at W3C.

Sandro Hawke: lot of 2.0 and 1.1 type of standards at W3C. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:31:57 <kendall> +1 to jeremy's point about "1.1" and "2.0" and which is easier to type, scan, read

Elisa Kendall: +1 to jeremy's point about "1.1" and "2.0" and which is easier to type, scan, read ←

18:32:06 <kendall> that's actually the core of a marketing point, IMO

Elisa Kendall: that's actually the core of a marketing point, IMO ←

18:32:39 <JLUCIANO> Rinke: bulk of people are those who download protege - doesn't matter to them // 2.0 might be a big disappointment because they've been waiting for these features for years

Rinke Hoekstra: bulk of people are those who download protege - doesn't matter to them // 2.0 might be a big disappointment because they've been waiting for these features for years ←

18:32:43 <sandro> Rinke: people might be disappointed if they are expecting a big "2.0".

Rinke Hoekstra: people might be disappointed if they are expecting a big "2.0". [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:33:06 <m_schnei> what about 1.5 (firefox, thunderbird) ;-)

Michael Schneider: what about 1.5 (firefox, thunderbird) ;-) ←

18:33:09 <JLUCIANO> Bernardo: continues speculating

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: continues speculating ←

18:33:26 <kendall> bernardo: epic fail! :)

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: epic fail! :) [ Scribe Assist by Elisa Kendall ] ←

18:33:44 <JLUCIANO> difference in opinion about speculation of user's response

difference in opinion about speculation of user's response ←

18:34:05 <JLUCIANO> 8 people 1.1

8 people 1.1 ←

18:34:15 <Elisa> +1 for 2.0 (or at least 1.5)

Elisa Kendall: +1 for 2.0 (or at least 1.5) ←

18:34:49 <JLUCIANO> votes for name 2.0  number is 6

votes for name 2.0 number is 6 ←

18:35:13 <JLUCIANO> bijan: thinks 1.5 seems interesting

Bijan Parsia: thinks 1.5 seems interesting ←

18:35:42 <JLUCIANO> Kendall: suggests as compromise 1.55

Elisa Kendall: suggests as compromise 1.55 ←

18:35:51 <kendall> as a joke

Elisa Kendall: as a joke ←

18:35:52 <kendall> :)

Elisa Kendall: :) ←

18:35:58 <Elisa> I would object to 1.1 ...

Elisa Kendall: I would object to 1.1 ... ←

18:36:24 <JLUCIANO> who would object strongly as 1.1 --> 1

who would object strongly as 1.1 --> 1 ←

18:37:01 <Elisa> I can live with 1.5

Elisa Kendall: I can live with 1.5 ←

18:37:43 <JLUCIANO> Bijan: pitch for 1.5, Elisa stated, reduce typo, indicated smaller change than 2.0, but larger than 1.5

Bijan Parsia: pitch for 1.5, Elisa stated, reduce typo, indicated smaller change than 2.0, but larger than 1.5 ←

18:37:55 <JLUCIANO> Sandro: counter argumen - unprecedented - confusing

Sandro Hawke: counter argumen - unprecedented - confusing ←

18:38:06 <JLUCIANO> Markus: owl 1l.1 has been around, would confuse?

Markus Krötzsch: owl 1l.1 has been around, would confuse? ←

18:38:11 <JLUCIANO> Ian: same goes for 2.0

Ian Horrocks: same goes for 2.0 ←

18:38:23 <JLUCIANO> Uli: for user we called it 1.1

Uli Sattler: for user we called it 1.1 ←

18:38:51 <JLUCIANO> jjc: would need to consult with colleagues

Unknown jjc: would need to consult with colleagues ←

18:39:02 <m_schnei> I think ms dos started with 3.11 or something like this :)

Michael Schneider: I think ms dos started with 3.11 or something like this :) ←

18:39:12 <JLUCIANO> Peter: if Elisa is objecting on OMG, Peter is objecting to her objection

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: if Elisa is objecting on OMG, Peter is objecting to her objection ←

18:39:33 <JLUCIANO> votes for 1.5 approx 4

votes for 1.5 approx 4 ←

18:39:58 <JLUCIANO> against 1.5 approx same

against 1.5 approx same ←

18:41:03 <Elisa> no, the reason is that there is significant change in the functional syntax / api

Elisa Kendall: no, the reason is that there is significant change in the functional syntax / api ←

18:41:38 <JLUCIANO> jjc would vote for with OMG reason

jjc would vote for with OMG reason ←

18:41:53 <JLUCIANO> Sandro: we are using 1.1 now, can postpone

Sandro Hawke: we are using 1.1 now, can postpone ←

18:42:08 <JLUCIANO> Ian, Alanr: don't want to put decision off

Ian, Alanr: don't want to put decision off ←

18:42:11 <m_schnei> 2-\epsilon with \epsilon \in [0,0.9]

Michael Schneider: 2-\epsilon with \epsilon \in [0,0.9] ←

18:42:41 <sandro> PROPOSED: The name is "OWL 2"

PROPOSED: The name is "OWL 2" ←

18:43:16 <Elisa> +1 for OWL 2

Elisa Kendall: +1 for OWL 2 ←

18:43:18 <sandro> PROPOSED: The name is "OWL 2" (ISSUE-51)

PROPOSED: The name is "OWL 2" (ISSUE-51) ←

18:43:25 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1 ←

18:43:27 <MarkusK> +1 for OWL 2

Markus Krötzsch: +1 for OWL 2 ←

18:43:31 <jie>  +1

Jie Bao: +1 ←

18:44:02 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

18:44:33 <Elisa> I prefer 2

Elisa Kendall: I prefer 2 ←

18:44:36 <JLUCIANO> 11 votes for 2, one vote for 2.0

11 votes for 2, one vote for 2.0 ←

18:45:03 <JLUCIANO> deborah: has to go, but doesn't care

Deborah McGuinness: has to go, but doesn't care ←

18:45:08 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1 ←

18:45:25 <bijan> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1 ←

18:45:25 <alanr> +1 for OWL 2

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 for OWL 2 ←

18:45:25 <Elisa> +1 for OWL 2

Elisa Kendall: +1 for OWL 2 ←

18:45:25 <pfps> +0 to OWL 2

Peter Patel-Schneider: +0 to OWL 2 ←

18:45:25 <m_schnei> +1

Michael Schneider: +1 ←

18:45:25 <jjc> +1

Unknown jjc: +1 ←

18:45:25 <alanr> = -1 for OWL 3

8. -1 for OWL 3

18:45:26 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-51 by saying the name is "OWL 2"

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-51 by saying the name is "OWL 2" ←

18:45:30 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

18:45:54 <ekw> +1 for OWL 2

Unknown ekw: +1 for OWL 2 ←

18:45:54 <IanH_> 0 (Oxford)

Ian Horrocks: 0 (Oxford) ←

18:45:54 <Zhe> +0.5 (Oracle)

Zhe Wu: +0.5 (Oracle) ←

18:45:54 <msmith> +1 for OWL 2 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 for OWL 2 (C&P) ←

18:45:56 <JLUCIANO> 0 (MITRE)

0 (MITRE) ←

18:46:17 <Rinke> +0.5 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +0.5 (Amsterdam) ←

18:46:17 <bcuencag2> 0

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: 0 ←

18:46:17 <Elisa> +1 to resolution

Elisa Kendall: +1 to resolution ←

18:46:17 <bijan> +1 for OWL 2

Bijan Parsia: +1 for OWL 2 ←

18:46:17 <sandro> Boris: implement before next release?

Boris Motik: implement before next release? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:46:17 <sandro> Sandro: I think we can do it.

Sandro Hawke: I think we can do it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:47:00 <sandro> RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-51 by saying the name is "OWL 2"

RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-51 by saying the name is "OWL 2" ←

18:47:21 <sandro> Bijan: call the old one, "OWL", "OWL 1", or "OWL 1.0"

Bijan Parsia: call the old one, "OWL", "OWL 1", or "OWL 1.0" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:47:37 <sandro> "OWL 2 DL"

Sandro Hawke: "OWL 2 DL" ←

18:47:41 <m_schnei> "ancient OWL", "classic OWL", choose your favourite

Michael Schneider: "ancient OWL", "classic OWL", choose your favourite ←

18:47:49 <sandro> "OWL 1"

Sandro Hawke: "OWL 1" ←

18:47:52 <sandro> Agreed:  "OWL 1" and "OWL 2 DL"

Scribe problem: the name 'Agreed' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Agreed: "OWL 1" and "OWL 2 DL" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:47:58 <kendall> OWL Classic :)

Elisa Kendall: OWL Classic :) ←

18:48:25 <JLUCIANO> Boris: change name now, will take 15 mins

Boris Motik: change name now, will take 15 mins ←

18:48:43 <Zakim> +Deb_McGuinness

Zakim IRC Bot: +Deb_McGuinness ←

18:49:06 <JLUCIANO> No object to change doc name now

No object to change doc name now ←

18:49:14 <JLUCIANO> Boris: changed his doc

Boris Motik: changed his doc ←

18:49:23 <JLUCIANO> Question about "short name"

Question about "short name" ←

18:49:55 <JLUCIANO> Sandro: cross-references will be painful if we don't change name now

Sandro Hawke: cross-references will be painful if we don't change name now ←

18:50:20 <JLUCIANO> Bijan: do it when we re-publish /

Bijan Parsia: do it when we re-publish / ←

18:50:29 <JLUCIANO> Ian: disagrees .... the sooner the better

Ian Horrocks: disagrees .... the sooner the better ←

18:51:16 <JLUCIANO> alan: objects because we didn't publish that we would be making this change

Alan Ruttenberg: objects because we didn't publish that we would be making this change ←

18:51:28 <JLUCIANO> Ian: difference between publishing and updating

Ian Horrocks: difference between publishing and updating ←

18:52:08 <JLUCIANO> Sandro: software desitgned to be published all at once  (a software issue).  also, looks cumberson to reference "correctly"

Sandro Hawke: software desitgned to be published all at once (a software issue). also, looks cumberson to reference "correctly" ←

18:52:35 <JLUCIANO> jjc: these issues may justify breaking the normal process rules

Unknown jjc: these issues may justify breaking the normal process rules ←

18:53:00 <JLUCIANO> jjc: state that they are being republished in order to substantiate the name change

Unknown jjc: state that they are being republished in order to substantiate the name change ←

18:53:34 <JLUCIANO> jjc: can say we're not taking comments on these versions

Unknown jjc: can say we're not taking comments on these versions ←

18:53:59 <JLUCIANO> alan: objects to publish doc that is about to be republished (alan correct if i got wrong)

Alan Ruttenberg: objects to publish doc that is about to be republished (alan correct if i got wrong) ←

18:54:51 <JLUCIANO> Bijan: proposes making explict that it's same doc, only the name change and that subsequent will be the one to be reviewed

Bijan Parsia: proposes making explict that it's same doc, only the name change and that subsequent will be the one to be reviewed ←

18:55:48 <JLUCIANO> boris: syntax is already done

Boris Motik: syntax is already done ←

18:56:49 <JLUCIANO> PROPOSED: REVERT, CHANGE, PUBLISH, REVERT BACK  to roll back to last snap shot, change all 1.1 to 2, take new snapshot, status of doc is only name change

PROPOSED: REVERT, CHANGE, PUBLISH, REVERT BACK to roll back to last snap shot, change all 1.1 to 2, take new snapshot, status of doc is only name change ←

18:57:29 <sandro> PROPOSAL: Publish new versions of Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF with the ONLY change being the "1.1" -> "2" name change.

PROPOSED: Publish new versions of Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF with the ONLY change being the "1.1" -> "2" name change. ←

18:57:43 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1 ←

18:57:45 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←

18:57:46 <MarkusK> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1 ←

18:57:47 <jie> +1

Jie Bao: +1 ←

18:57:47 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 ←

18:57:47 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

18:57:47 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1 ←

18:57:48 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

18:57:53 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1 ←

18:58:00 <ekw> +1

Unknown ekw: +1 ←

18:58:01 <Elisa> +1

Elisa Kendall: +1 ←

18:58:02 <bcuencag2> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

18:58:28 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ←

18:58:33 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish new versions of Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF with the ONLY change being the "1.1" -> "2" name change.

RESOLVED: Publish new versions of Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF with the ONLY change being the "1.1" -> "2" name change. ←

18:59:33 <jjc> BTW +1 for that resolution

Unknown jjc: BTW +1 for that resolution ←

18:59:54 <alanr> Action: Sandro to manage the previous documents 1.1->2 change

ACTION: Sandro to manage the previous documents 1.1->2 change ←

18:59:54 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-128 - Manage the previous documents 1.1->2 change [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-128 - Manage the previous documents 1.1->2 change [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-04-10]. ←

19:00:43 <sandro> (and I'll just do it on copies, so it wont even change the wiki history.)

Sandro Hawke: (and I'll just do it on copies, so it wont even change the wiki history.) ←

19:01:09 <JLUCIANO> finished naming discussion

finished naming discussion ←

19:01:44 <sandro> Jeremy: "OWL 2 Full"

Jeremy Carroll: "OWL 2 Full" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:05:20 <Rinke> Boris, perhaps we should not change the reference to the OWL 1.1 member submission to OWL 2

Rinke Hoekstra: Boris, perhaps we should not change the reference to the OWL 1.1 member submission to OWL 2 ←

19:05:45 <ekw> Topic: OWL 2 Full Semantics Issues

9. OWL 2 Full Semantics Issues

19:05:49 <alanr> the submission was 1.1, so that shouldn't change, I think.

Alan Ruttenberg: the submission was 1.1, so that shouldn't change, I think. ←

19:05:55 <kendall> +1

Elisa Kendall: +1 ←

19:06:11 <kendall> that's another reason for owl 2 being a good change; the submission is now distinct, 1.1, from the new standard

Elisa Kendall: that's another reason for owl 2 being a good change; the submission is now distinct, 1.1, from the new standard ←

19:06:26 <alanr> yes - makes us feel like we've accomplished something ;-)

Alan Ruttenberg: yes - makes us feel like we've accomplished something ;-) ←

19:06:30 <kendall> that's a nice clarification for people not paying a lot of attention

Elisa Kendall: that's a nice clarification for people not paying a lot of attention ←

19:06:37 <Rinke> +1 to accomplishment :)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 to accomplishment :) ←

19:06:45 <kendall> alanr: s/something/something good/ ;>

Alan Ruttenberg: s/something/something good/ ;> [ Scribe Assist by Elisa Kendall ] ←

19:06:52 <alanr> :)

Alan Ruttenberg: :) ←

19:06:58 <ekw> Michael Schneider is presenting slides

Unknown ekw: Michael Schneider is presenting slides ←

19:07:31 <ekw> OWL Full overview slide

Unknown ekw: OWL Full overview slide ←

19:08:20 <jjc2> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullSemantics

Unknown jjc2: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullSemantics ←

19:09:11 <ekw> Ian: It is true that every RDF graph is syntactically valid input to OWL Full and every RDF graph is sematically interpreted

Ian Horrocks: It is true that every RDF graph is syntactically valid input to OWL Full and every RDF graph is sematically interpreted [ Scribe Assist by Unknown ekw ] ←

19:09:11 <sandro> scribenick: ekw

(Scribe set to Unknown ekw)

19:09:30 <ekw> But: That doesn't mean that the interpretation is sensible

Scribe problem: the name 'But' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown But: That doesn't mean that the interpretation is sensible ←

19:09:43 <ekw> OWL Full and OWL DL slide

OWL Full and OWL DL slide ←

19:11:42 <ekw> MSch: a class itself is itself an individual in the domain

Michael Schneider: a class itself is itself an individual in the domain ←

19:12:13 <ekw> State of OWL 1.1 Full Development

State of OWL 1.1 Full Development ←

19:13:13 <ekw> MSch: for 1.1 the semantics for Full should be conservative extension to OWL 1 Full semantics

Michael Schneider: for 1.1 the semantics for Full should be conservative extension to OWL 1 Full semantics ←

19:13:42 <ekw> MSch: Every DL entailment should also be a Full entailment in 1.1

Michael Schneider: Every DL entailment should also be a Full entailment in 1.1 ←

19:14:03 <Zakim> -Deb_McGuinness

Scribe problem: the name 'Deb_McGuinness' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Deb_McGuinness ←

19:15:11 <ekw> Sandrow: is it also true everything that is not entailed in Full should be not entailed in DL

Sandro Hawke: is it also true everything that is not entailed in Full should be not entailed in DL ←

19:15:52 <Rinke> s/Sandrow/Sandro

19:16:56 <ekw> Msch: see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Full for current state of OWL 1.1 semantics proposal

Michael Schneider: see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Full for current state of OWL 1.1 semantics proposal ←

19:17:33 <ekw> MSch: about 1/2 the language features in this are ready for review

Michael Schneider: about 1/2 the language features in this are ready for review ←

19:17:40 <jjc2> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullIssues

Unknown jjc2: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullIssues ←

19:17:52 <ekw> Slide: Issues with OWL DL Compatibility

unserializable event: meeting.NextSlide

19:18:52 <ekw> MSch: OWL Full has infinite universe.  This is simply shown

Michael Schneider: OWL Full has infinite universe. This is simply shown ←

19:20:27 <ekw> MSch: OWL Full always has entailments not existing in OWL DL

Michael Schneider: OWL Full always has entailments not existing in OWL DL ←

19:21:05 <sandro> Peter: hope was:  IF premise AND conclusion were BOTH in DL, THEN they would be equally strong.

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: hope was: IF premise AND conclusion were BOTH in DL, THEN they would be equally strong. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:21:59 <ekw> MSch: Have a feeling that OWL DL might have entailments not existing in OWL Full

Michael Schneider: Have a feeling that OWL DL might have entailments not existing in OWL Full ←

19:23:27 <jjc2> http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2007/HPL-2007-146.pdf

Unknown jjc2: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2007/HPL-2007-146.pdf ←

19:24:52 <ekw> JJC: Dave Turner did a study of the semantics of OWL 1.0 which the ref'd doc discusses

Unknown JJC: Dave Turner did a study of the semantics of OWL 1.0 which the ref'd doc discusses ←

19:25:23 <jjc2> verified the theorem from OWL 1.0 semantics doc

Unknown jjc2: verified the theorem from OWL 1.0 semantics doc ←

19:25:28 <jjc2> with minor errata

Unknown jjc2: with minor errata ←

19:25:36 <ekw> Slide: Issues with OWL 1.0 Full

unserializable event: meeting.NextSlide

19:26:48 <ekw> MSch: Found bugs in semantics

Michael Schneider: Found bugs in semantics ←

19:27:19 <ekw> Bug in sem for boolean axioms lead to OWL Full inconsistency

Bug in sem for boolean axioms lead to OWL Full inconsistency ←

19:27:25 <bmotik> I've just updated all the documents from 1.1 to 2. I've also changed owl11 -> owl2   owl11-xml -> owl2-xml. Finally, I've changed all references for OWL 1.0 to OWL 1.

Boris Motik: I've just updated all the documents from 1.1 to 2. I've also changed owl11 -> owl2 owl11-xml -> owl2-xml. Finally, I've changed all references for OWL 1.0 to OWL 1. ←

19:28:08 <ekw> MSch: I will be writing this up in the Wiki page referenced earlier

Michael Schneider: I will be writing this up in the Wiki page referenced earlier ←

19:28:55 <ekw> MSch: Fixing this bug will lead to incompatibility with 1.0

Michael Schneider: Fixing this bug will lead to incompatibility with 1.0 ←

19:29:27 <ekw> MSch: RDFS has a collection of so called axiomatic conditions

Michael Schneider: RDFS has a collection of so called axiomatic conditions ←

19:31:05 <ekw> MSch: PD* assumes certain of these semantic conditions that were not actually imposed on OWL Full

Michael Schneider: PD* assumes certain of these semantic conditions that were not actually imposed on OWL Full ←

19:31:58 <ekw> Slide: Issues with OWL 1.1 Full

unserializable event: meeting.NextSlide

19:32:32 <ekw> MSch: Mapping for QCRs have a problem (which Peter has noted)

Michael Schneider: Mapping for QCRs have a problem (which Peter has noted) ←

19:32:53 <ekw> MSch: Every QCR will also be a normal CR in Full

Michael Schneider: Every QCR will also be a normal CR in Full ←

19:33:26 <ekw> Relevance: Essentially QCRs unusable in Full because of this

Scribe problem: the name 'Relevance' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Relevance: Essentially QCRs unusable in Full because of this ←

19:33:43 <ekw> PFPS: All different is actually OK

Peter Patel-Schneider: All different is actually OK ←

19:35:42 <ekw> test

test ←

19:39:06 <sandro> jjc: with owl 1 , the self-restriction on type (the PS paradox) is well known....   What is new in OWL 2 here?

Unknown jjc: with owl 1 , the self-restriction on type (the PS paradox) is well known.... What is new in OWL 2 here? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:39:24 <sandro> m_schnei: Comprehension Principals ...       something

Michael Schneider: Comprehension Principals ... something [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:39:39 <sandro> Bijan: the comprension princpals entail a contradiction

Bijan Parsia: the comprension princpals entail a contradiction [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:40:09 <sandro> Boris: for all x r(x,x)

Boris Motik: for all x r(x,x) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

19:41:12 <sandro> Ian: We've never proven that OWL Full is consistent, so adding stuff isn't likely to help us prove that!

Ian Horrocks: We've never proven that OWL Full is consistent, so adding stuff isn't likely to help us prove that! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:21:58 <ekw> test

(No events recorded for 40 minutes)

test ←

20:22:15 <alanr> h

Alan Ruttenberg: h ←

20:22:36 <sandro> scribenick: bijan

(Scribe set to Bijan Parsia)

20:23:10 <bmotik> scribenick bmotik

Boris Motik: scribenick bmotik ←

20:23:17 <sandro> scribenick: bmotik

(Scribe set to Boris Motik)

20:24:05 <bmotik> alanr: ISSUE-69: punning is incompatible with OWL Full

Alan Ruttenberg: ISSUE-69: punning is incompatible with OWL Full ←

20:24:46 <Zakim> -Meeting_Room

Zakim IRC Bot: -Meeting_Room ←

20:24:54 <bmotik> alanr: The main problem is with equivalence: if A sameas B, then A equivalent B in OWL Full but not in OWL DL

Alan Ruttenberg: The main problem is with equivalence: if A sameas B, then A equivalent B in OWL Full but not in OWL DL ←

20:25:32 <bmotik> alanr: What to do with these entailments?

Alan Ruttenberg: What to do with these entailments? ←

20:25:54 <bmotik> bijan & alanr: We could say that this is not a ligal OWL DL entailment

bijan & alanr: We could say that this is not a ligal OWL DL entailment ←

20:26:12 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

20:26:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall ←

20:26:21 <bmotik> alanr: When we talk about semantic subsets, we talked about the status of the missing entailments

Alan Ruttenberg: When we talk about semantic subsets, we talked about the status of the missing entailments ←

20:26:36 <bmotik> alanr: There is a parallel with the fragments/profiles

Alan Ruttenberg: There is a parallel with the fragments/profiles ←

20:26:48 <bmotik> alanr: We should decide in general what our position is on such situations

Alan Ruttenberg: We should decide in general what our position is on such situations ←

20:27:23 <bmotik> bijan: We should not have any additional entailments

Bijan Parsia: We should not have any additional entailments ←

20:27:34 <Zakim> +??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←

20:27:51 <pfps> zakim, ??p0 is meeting room

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, ??p0 is meeting room ←

20:27:51 <Zakim> I don't understand '??p0 is meeting room', pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??p0 is meeting room', pfps ←

20:28:02 <sandro> Sandro: This sounds like a "loose" vs "strict" mode on a reasoner.

Sandro Hawke: This sounds like a "loose" vs "strict" mode on a reasoner. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:28:03 <pfps> zakim, ??p0 is meetingRoom

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, ??p0 is meetingRoom ←

20:28:03 <Zakim> +meetingRoom; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +meetingRoom; got it ←

20:28:09 <bmotik> jjc: We always think in terms of reasoner behavior

Unknown jjc: We always think in terms of reasoner behavior ←

20:28:18 <bmotik> jjc: W3C talks about documents

Unknown jjc: W3C talks about documents ←

20:29:19 <bmotik> bijan: In OWL DL reasoning you care about the missing entailmens

Bijan Parsia: In OWL DL reasoning you care about the missing entailmens ←

20:29:41 <bmotik> bijan: In OWL DL you care about "no" answers -- for example, when classifying an ontology

Bijan Parsia: In OWL DL you care about "no" answers -- for example, when classifying an ontology ←

20:30:32 <bmotik> alanr: Two points: (1) the analogy to DL-safe rules is not a good analogy because they require a new syntax, (2) Sandro brings up another option: we have always two modes

Alan Ruttenberg: Two points: (1) the analogy to DL-safe rules is not a good analogy because they require a new syntax, (2) Sandro brings up another option: we have always two modes ←

20:31:42 <sandro> Sandro:  yes, Jeremy, but the meaning of an OWL document found on the web is NOT specified in the case where there is a difference between OWL DL and OWL Full.

Sandro Hawke: yes, Jeremy, but the meaning of an OWL document found on the web is NOT specified in the case where there is a difference between OWL DL and OWL Full. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:32:33 <bmotik> sandro: This WG does not flag documents as being DL and Full; hence, we are not really specifying the meaning of documents

Sandro Hawke: This WG does not flag documents as being DL and Full; hence, we are not really specifying the meaning of documents ←

20:33:36 <bmotik> bijan: jjc does not like punning because from the syntax we don't know which type of reasoning to use for a given ontology

Bijan Parsia: jjc does not like punning because from the syntax we don't know which type of reasoning to use for a given ontology ←

20:33:39 <sandro> modulo the differences between DL and Full.

Sandro Hawke: modulo the differences between DL and Full. ←

20:36:26 <bmotik> bmotik: We might have an ontology property that would say which semantics it requires

Boris Motik: We might have an ontology property that would say which semantics it requires ←

20:37:05 <bmotik> alanr: We have OWL Full, OWL DL, OWL-R; we should make a parallel between all these situations

Alan Ruttenberg: We have OWL Full, OWL DL, OWL-R; we should make a parallel between all these situations ←

20:37:15 <bmotik> jjc: Agrees with alanr

Unknown jjc: Agrees with alanr ←

20:38:25 <bmotik> ianh: Clarifies that there is a problem with nonentailments in all these (sub)languages

Ian Horrocks: Clarifies that there is a problem with nonentailments in all these (sub)languages ←

20:38:43 <bmotik> ianh: Is providing additional entailments optional or an error?

Ian Horrocks: Is providing additional entailments optional or an error? ←

20:39:33 <bmotik> peter: Does not aregree with this analogy

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: Does not aregree with this analogy ←

20:39:41 <bmotik> sandro: Does agree with the analogy

Sandro Hawke: Does agree with the analogy ←

20:40:35 <sandro> Sandro: It sounds like we should have unnamed languages, "DL+" and "OWL-R+", where the "+" can be turned off in "Strict" mode.

Sandro Hawke: It sounds like we should have unnamed languages, "DL+" and "OWL-R+", where the "+" can be turned off in "Strict" mode. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:40:38 <bmotik> bijan: Some people might not implement nominals, but missing entailments for nominals is an error

Bijan Parsia: Some people might not implement nominals, but missing entailments for nominals is an error ←

20:41:53 <bmotik> peter: If you are not in OWL DL mode, you have to say you're not in the OWL DL mode

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: If you are not in OWL DL mode, you have to say you're not in the OWL DL mode ←

20:41:59 <sandro> JJC: if you make a DL reasoner or a OWL-R reasoner, you must have a "strict" mode.

Unknown JJC: if you make a DL reasoner or a OWL-R reasoner, you must have a "strict" mode. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:42:06 <bmotik> peter: How far does the + go?

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: How far does the + go? ←

20:42:14 <bmotik> peter: Can you go above OWL Full?

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: Can you go above OWL Full? ←

20:42:25 <sandro> Peter: How far does the "+" go?     All the way to Full, and beyond to collapse?

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: How far does the "+" go? All the way to Full, and beyond to collapse? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:42:25 <bmotik> bijan: Yes, you should be able to go above OWL Full.

Bijan Parsia: Yes, you should be able to go above OWL Full. ←

20:42:59 <bmotik> jjc: If I introduce additional vocabulary and give it semantics, I see nothing wrong with allowing my reasoner to provide additional entailments

Unknown jjc: If I introduce additional vocabulary and give it semantics, I see nothing wrong with allowing my reasoner to provide additional entailments ←

20:43:22 <bmotik> bijan: We should not have a strict or nonstrict mode

Bijan Parsia: We should not have a strict or nonstrict mode ←

20:43:37 <bmotik> bijan: If people want to extend their tools, they are free to do so.

Bijan Parsia: If people want to extend their tools, they are free to do so. ←

20:43:48 <bmotik> bijan: Such extensions might fail the test suite, but who cares.

Bijan Parsia: Such extensions might fail the test suite, but who cares. ←

20:43:50 <sandro> Sandro: If you add "+" stuff, then you fail the test suite.

Sandro Hawke: If you add "+" stuff, then you fail the test suite. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:43:55 <sandro> Bijan: yeah, so what?

Bijan Parsia: yeah, so what? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:44:22 <bmotik> ianh: Of course we can't stop implementors from implementing extensions

Ian Horrocks: Of course we can't stop implementors from implementing extensions ←

20:44:58 <bmotik> ianh: In question is whether there should be a defined +

Ian Horrocks: In question is whether there should be a defined + ←

20:45:25 <bmotik> ianh: Such + would have OWL Full as its top

Ian Horrocks: Such + would have OWL Full as its top ←

20:45:27 <sandro> alan: implicit is OWL-DL+ == OWL-Fill

Alan Ruttenberg: implicit is OWL-DL+ == OWL-Full [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

20:45:32 <sandro> s/Fill/Full/

20:45:43 <bmotik> joanne: My first interpretation of + is any addition that someone might want to put on

Joanne Luciano: My first interpretation of + is any addition that someone might want to put on ←

20:45:58 <bmotik> joanne: We should specify what we specify and not overlegislate

Joanne Luciano: We should specify what we specify and not overlegislate ←

20:46:15 <bmotik> alanr: Legislation means that we specify exactly what entailments we should specify

Alan Ruttenberg: Legislation means that we specify exactly what entailments we should specify ←

20:46:25 <bmotik> analr: This is a minimum

Scribe problem: the name 'analr' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown analr: This is a minimum ←

20:47:17 <bmotik> alanr: Question to Zhe: are you comfortable about specifying OWL-R Full as "this is precisely the set of entailments that your reasoner should make"?

Alan Ruttenberg: Question to Zhe: are you comfortable about specifying OWL-R Full as "this is precisely the set of entailments that your reasoner should make"? ←

20:47:42 <bmotik> Zhe: A strict mode is a good thing  (it enhances compatibility)

Zhe Wu: A strict mode is a good thing (it enhances compatibility) ←

20:47:49 <bmotik> Zhe: Oracle has user-defined rule support

Zhe Wu: Oracle has user-defined rule support ←

20:47:58 <bmotik> Zhe: People might want to define uncles

Zhe Wu: People might want to define uncles ←

20:48:30 <bmotik> Zhe: Oracle wants to support the OWL-R subset in a strict mode, but it also wants to have the ability to extend this

Zhe Wu: Oracle wants to support the OWL-R subset in a strict mode, but it also wants to have the ability to extend this ←

20:48:44 <bmotik> alanr: So a strict mode seems like a good idea

Alan Ruttenberg: So a strict mode seems like a good idea ←

20:49:09 <bmotik> ianh: I don't even thing it is necessary to say "you can do more"?

Ian Horrocks: I don't even thing it is necessary to say "you can do more"? ←

20:49:31 <bmotik> ianh: If people want to do more, there is no way for us to prevent them from doing this

Ian Horrocks: If people want to do more, there is no way for us to prevent them from doing this ←

20:50:04 <bmotik> sanrdo: But there is the test suite that says to the people what they can't do

Scribe problem: the name 'sanrdo' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown sanrdo: But there is the test suite that says to the people what they can't do ←

20:51:54 <bmotik> boris: We might split the test suite into the positive and the negative part

Boris Motik: We might split the test suite into the positive and the negative part ←

20:52:09 <bmotik> boris: If people do additional stuff, they can then say what negative part they violated

Boris Motik: If people do additional stuff, they can then say what negative part they violated ←

20:52:58 <bmotik> bijan: Vendors might distinguish the strict and "sensible" entailments

Bijan Parsia: Vendors might distinguish the strict and "sensible" entailments ←

20:54:46 <bmotik> jjc: Whatever we decide, the DL tools will do what they want to do

Unknown jjc: Whatever we decide, the DL tools will do what they want to do ←

20:55:06 <bmotik> jjc: Punning between classes and individuals is a "lost cause"

Unknown jjc: Punning between classes and individuals is a "lost cause" ←

20:55:37 <bmotik> jjc: OWL-Full vendors will say whatever they wanted to do (sameAs implies equivalence)

Unknown jjc: OWL-Full vendors will say whatever they wanted to do (sameAs implies equivalence) ←

20:55:55 <bmotik> jjc: This issue seems not worth discussing, because it will not make the difference to the world

Unknown jjc: This issue seems not worth discussing, because it will not make the difference to the world ←

20:56:34 <bmotik> achille: The reailty is that people will implement more and they will go beyond the strict mode

Achille Fokoue: The reailty is that people will implement more and they will go beyond the strict mode ←

20:57:04 <bmotik> ianh: I agree with Jeremy, but isn't that the argument to white the spec in exactly the way that the users want to do?

Ian Horrocks: I agree with Jeremy, but isn't that the argument to write the spec in exactly the way that the users want to do? ←

20:57:14 <bmotik> s/white/write

20:57:48 <bmotik> STRAWPOLL: We define our languages with an exact set of entailments

STRAWPOLL: We define our languages with an exact set of entailments ←

20:58:09 <sandro> PROPOSED: We define our languages as some set of entailments.   DL does not have certain entailments.  OWL-R does not have certain entailments.     Vendors can implemented other/related languages if they want.

PROPOSED: We define our languages as some set of entailments. DL does not have certain entailments. OWL-R does not have certain entailments. Vendors can implemented other/related languages if they want. ←

20:58:32 <bmotik> most people in favor, jjc has a problem with what the document means

most people in favor, jjc has a problem with what the document means ←

20:59:29 <bmotik> peter: I would prefer the situation where we had different document types of all entailments

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: I would prefer the situation where we had different document types of all entailments ←

20:59:51 <bmotik> peter: The 10 working group did not allow us to have this

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: The 1.0 working group did not allow us to have this ←

20:59:55 <bmotik> s/10/1.0

21:00:44 <bmotik> alanr: There is an uncertainty about what would happen in DL if sameAs should imply equivalence

Alan Ruttenberg: There is an uncertainty about what would happen in DL if sameAs should imply equivalence ←

21:01:07 <bmotik> alanr: We should defer such questions to future WGs

Alan Ruttenberg: We should defer such questions to future WGs ←

21:01:48 <bmotik> PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-69 by specifying OWL DL and OWL Full by an exact set of entailments

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-69 by specifying OWL DL and OWL Full by an exact set of entailments ←

21:02:02 <sandro> PROPOSED: We define our languages as some set of entailments.   DL does not have certain OWL Full entailments.  OWL-R does not have certain OWL Full entailments.     Vendors can implemented other/related languages if they want.

PROPOSED: We define our languages as some set of entailments. DL does not have certain OWL Full entailments. OWL-R does not have certain OWL Full entailments. Vendors can implemented other/related languages if they want. ←

21:02:20 <zBijan> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'zBijan' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown zBijan: +1 ←

21:02:29 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-69 saying that define our languages as some set of entailments.   DL does not have certain OWL Full entailments.  OWL-R does not have certain OWL Full entailments.     Vendors can implemented other/related languages if they want.

PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE-69 saying that define our languages as some set of entailments. DL does not have certain OWL Full entailments. OWL-R does not have certain OWL Full entailments. Vendors can implemented other/related languages if they want. ←

21:02:46 <jjc> -epsilon (HP)

Unknown jjc: -epsilon (HP) ←

21:02:48 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 (C&P) ←

21:02:59 <pfps> +1 to resolve issue 69

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to resolve ISSUE-69 ←

21:03:01 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

+1 (Oxford) ←

21:03:09 <zBijan> +1 (Manchester)

Unknown zBijan: +1 (Manchester) ←

21:03:17 <sandro> -0

Sandro Hawke: -0 ←

21:03:40 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM) ←

21:03:53 <IanH> PROPOSED: DL does not have certain OWL Full entailments.  OWL-R does not have certain OWL Full entailments.    Vendors can implement other/related languages if they want.

PROPOSED: DL does not have certain OWL Full entailments. OWL-R does not have certain OWL Full entailments. Vendors can implement other/related languages if they want. ←

21:04:17 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

+1 (Oxford) ←

21:04:20 <zBijan> +1 (Manchester)

Unknown zBijan: +1 (Manchester) ←

21:04:24 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM) ←

21:04:25 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons) ←

21:04:25 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Unknown ekw: +1 (NIST) ←

21:04:26 <Zhe> +1 (Oracle)

Zhe Wu: +1 (Oracle) ←

21:04:27 <baojie> 0

Jie Bao: 0 ←

21:04:29 <pfps> +1 to the resolution

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to the resolution ←

21:04:30 <jjc> -epsilon (HP)

Unknown jjc: -epsilon (HP) ←

21:04:31 <sandro> -0

Sandro Hawke: -0 ←

21:04:31 <Rinke> +1 (Amsterdam)

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 (Amsterdam) ←

21:04:40 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Michael Smith: +1 (C&P) ←

21:04:40 <Elisa> +1

Elisa Kendall: +1 ←

21:04:45 <MarkusK> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI) ←

21:05:19 <sandro> jjc states -epsilon as non-blocking

Sandro Hawke: jjc states -epsilon as non-blocking ←

21:05:22 <bmotik> RESOLVED: DL does not have certain OWL Full entailments. OWL-R does not have certain OWL Full entailments. Vendors can implement other/related languages if they want.

RESOLVED: DL does not have certain OWL Full entailments. OWL-R does not have certain OWL Full entailments. Vendors can implement other/related languages if they want. ←

21:06:01 <bmotik> bijan: There is no way to indicate the semantic intent. We could introduce MIME types

Bijan Parsia: There is no way to indicate the semantic intent. We could introduce MIME types ←

21:06:35 <bmotik> alanr: Not on the agenta, bijan should raise an issue

Alan Ruttenberg: Not on the agenta, bijan should raise an issue ←

21:06:49 <bmotik> alanr: ISSUE-12 is closed

Alan Ruttenberg: ISSUE-12 is closed ←

21:07:24 <bmotik> alanr: ISSUE-67, ISSUE-81: Reification issues

Alan Ruttenberg: ISSUE-67, ISSUE-81: Reification issues ←

21:07:52 <bmotik> alanr: Jeremy split this into two cases: (1) the use of reification for annotations, and (2) the use of reification for negative property assertions

Alan Ruttenberg: Jeremy split this into two cases: (1) the use of reification for annotations, and (2) the use of reification for negative property assertions ←

21:08:00 <bmotik> alanr: I'd like to split these two issues

Alan Ruttenberg: I'd like to split these two issues ←

21:08:54 <bmotik> alanr: ISSUE-81 is different from ISSUE-67 in the sente that annotations might not have semantics at all, so they would not affect the formal meaning of an ontology

Alan Ruttenberg: ISSUE-81 is different from ISSUE-67 in the sente that annotations might not have semantics at all, so they would not affect the formal meaning of an ontology ←

21:09:29 <bmotik> alanr: Question to jeremy and m_schneider: could we say that ISSUE-67 is not a problem and focus on ISSUE-81

Alan Ruttenberg: Question to jeremy and m_schneider: could we say that ISSUE-67 is not a problem and focus on ISSUE-81 ←

21:09:46 <bmotik> m_shneider: The use of reification is opposed by the community, so this is why I would not use it

Scribe problem: the name 'm_shneider' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown m_shneider: The use of reification is opposed by the community, so this is why I would not use it ←

21:10:22 <bmotik> m_schneider: Do we want to use RDF reification.

Michael Schneider: Do we want to use RDF reification. ←

21:10:37 <bmotik> m_schneider: It is not a technical or a semantic problem; this is a nicety issue

Michael Schneider: It is not a technical or a semantic problem; this is a nicety issue ←

21:10:45 <bmotik> m_schneider: People just don't like reification

Michael Schneider: People just don't like reification ←

21:11:36 <bmotik> bijan: There are lots of alternative encodings

Bijan Parsia: There are lots of alternative encodings ←

21:11:52 <bmotik> bijan: Boris was in favor of reification because reification was designed for this purpose

Bijan Parsia: Boris was in favor of reification because reification was designed for this purpose ←

21:13:39 <bmotik> boris: We need to encode more than binary predicates, so we'll need to reify them

Boris Motik: We need to encode more than binary predicates, so we'll need to reify them ←

21:13:56 <bmotik> boris: Reification is necessary and people are doing it already in general

Boris Motik: Reification is necessary and people are doing it already in general ←

21:14:46 <bmotik> m_schneider: I don't see some other opporunity for encoding negative assertions

Michael Schneider: I don't see some other opporunity for encoding negative assertions ←

21:15:14 <bmotik> alanr: Achille and Zhe, do you care about this?

Alan Ruttenberg: Achille and Zhe, do you care about this? ←

21:15:18 <bmotik> Achille: I don't care

Achille Fokoue: I don't care ←

21:15:30 <bmotik> Zhe: People hate reification

Zhe Wu: People hate reification ←

21:15:45 <bmotik> Zhe: Reification requires joins so I'd like to avoid it

Zhe Wu: Reification requires joins so I'd like to avoid it ←

21:16:34 <bmotik> alanr: We could reolve this issue by saying "we can try something else"

Alan Ruttenberg: We could reolve this issue by saying "we can try something else" ←

21:16:54 <bmotik> jjc: We are then not resolving, but just postponing the issue

Unknown jjc: We are then not resolving, but just postponing the issue ←

21:18:32 <bmotik> jjc: What is the problem with a complemented hasValue assertion?

Unknown jjc: What is the problem with a complemented hasValue assertion? ←

21:18:55 <bmotik> bijan: This is bad because you can use negative assertions without nominals

Bijan Parsia: This is bad because you can use negative assertions without nominals ←

21:19:12 <sandro> Bijan: I don't lilke the Compliment-Of approach to ISSUE-81.   Using a nominal in that way hides the fact that you don't support nominals.  I mean, ... I can encode a lot of things into more expressive logics!

Bijan Parsia: I don't lilke the Compliment-Of approach to ISSUE-81. Using a nominal in that way hides the fact that you don't support nominals. I mean, ... I can encode a lot of things into more expressive logics! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:19:16 <bmotik> bijan: Using a nominal for just a property assertion makes it difficult to say what it allowed in which fragment

Bijan Parsia: Using a nominal for just a property assertion makes it difficult to say what is allowed in which fragment ←

21:19:20 <sandro> Uli: Yes, it would be difficult in the fragments.

Uli Sattler: Yes, it would be difficult in the fragments. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:19:39 <bmotik> s/it allowed/is allowed

21:20:55 <bmotik> m_schneider: Likes shadow vocabulary

Michael Schneider: Likes shadow vocabulary ←

21:21:06 <bmotik> jjc: Dislikes shadow vocabulary

Unknown jjc: Dislikes shadow vocabulary ←

21:22:31 <bmotik> alanr: Solving this technical problem in this room is likely not to work

Alan Ruttenberg: Solving this technical problem in this room is likely not to work ←

21:22:53 <bmotik> alanr: I propose that we record that we don't like this issue and that we postpone the resolution until later

Alan Ruttenberg: I propose that we record that we don't like this issue and that we postpone the resolution until later ←

21:23:08 <m_schnei> bijan, we have simply *luck* that we have this totally different kind of encoding (actually a semantical circumscription) of neg prop assertions; but what about annotations?

Michael Schneider: bijan, we have simply *luck* that we have this totally different kind of encoding (actually a semantical circumscription) of neg prop assertions; but what about annotations? ←

21:23:33 <sandro> jjc: I would vote -0 on the reification vocabulary.

Unknown jjc: I would vote -0 on the reification vocabulary. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:23:34 <bmotik> bijan: Have we learnt that people really dislike reification?

Bijan Parsia: Have we learnt that people really dislike reification? ←

21:23:57 <bmotik> jjc and sandro: Would vote -0 on using reification

jjc and sandro: Would vote -0 on using reification ←

21:24:37 <sandro> ACTION: Bijan to come up with proposals for ISSUE-67 and ISSUE-81.

ACTION: Bijan to come up with proposals for ISSUE-67 and ISSUE-81. ←

21:24:37 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-129 - Come up with proposals for ISSUE-67 and ISSUE-81. [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-129 - Come up with proposals for ISSUE-67 and ISSUE-81. [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-04-10]. ←

21:25:08 <bmotik> jjc: HP has discovered that special support for reification is costly and we'll drop it in future

Unknown jjc: HP has discovered that special support for reification is costly and we'll drop it in future ←

21:25:10 <sandro> SCRIBE CORRECTION -- I said I might have to vote "-1" on this -- I need to check.

Sandro Hawke: SCRIBE CORRECTION -- I said I might have to vote "-1" on this -- I need to check. ←

21:25:37 <bmotik> alanr: ISSUE-90, ISSUE-91: Related to backwards compatibility

Alan Ruttenberg: ISSUE-90, ISSUE-91: Related to backwards compatibility ←

21:25:43 <sandro> (where "this" == use of RDF Reification in OWL)

Sandro Hawke: (where "this" == use of RDF Reification in OWL) ←

21:26:12 <sandro> (no problem, bmotik, it happens!  :-)

Sandro Hawke: (no problem, bmotik, it happens! :-) ←

21:27:02 <bmotik> m_schneider: I have a proposal for addressing this

Michael Schneider: I have a proposal for addressing this ←

21:27:16 <bmotik> m_schneider: I propose to have deprecations as semantic-free annotations

Michael Schneider: I propose to have deprecations as semantic-free annotations ←

21:27:28 <bmotik> m_schneider: I propose to keep OWL-Full as is

Michael Schneider: I propose to keep OWL-Full as is ←

21:27:39 <bmotik> m_schneider: Do not deprecate Deprecation

Michael Schneider: Do not deprecate Deprecation ←

21:27:59 <bmotik> peter: Let me say what Michael's proposal should me

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: Let me say what Michael's proposal should me ←

21:28:25 <bmotik> peter: There should not be deprecated classes and properties in OWL 2 DL

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: There should not be deprecated classes and properties in OWL 2 DL ←

21:28:58 <bmotik> peter: owl:DeprecatedClass and owl:DeprecatedProperty should be the same as owl:Class and owl:Property

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: owl:DeprecatedClass and owl:DeprecatedProperty should be the same as owl:Class and owl:Property ←

21:29:47 <bmotik> m_schneider: In OWL 1 DL, the following was the case:

Michael Schneider: In OWL 1 DL, the following was the case: ←

21:30:18 <bmotik> m_schneider: There were OWL 1 DL deprecated classes and properties

Michael Schneider: There were OWL 1 DL deprecated classes and properties ←

21:30:40 <bmotik> m_schneider: There was a special "deprecated" flag in the abstract syntax

Michael Schneider: There was a special "deprecated" flag in the abstract syntax ←

21:30:57 <bmotik> m_schneider: There was a special trick for handing the "deprecated" flag in the AS

Michael Schneider: There was a special trick for handing the "deprecated" flag in the AS ←

21:31:15 <bmotik> m_schneider: This flag was handled in the semantics using an artificial rdf:type property

Michael Schneider: This flag was handled in the semantics using an artificial rdf:type property ←

21:31:21 <bmotik> m_schneider: This was confusing

Michael Schneider: This was confusing ←

21:32:00 <bmotik> m_schneider: From the semantic point of view: there no mapping of an rdf:type property from OWL/RDF into AS

Michael Schneider: From the semantic point of view: there no mapping of an rdf:type property from OWL/RDF into AS ←

21:32:23 <jjc> SCRIBE CORRECTION: I said "we'll probably drop it"

Unknown jjc: SCRIBE CORRECTION: I said "we'll probably drop it" ←

21:32:24 <bmotik> m_schneider: In OWL 1, annotations do have a semantics, so all this mattered

Michael Schneider: In OWL 1, annotations do have a semantics, so all this mattered ←

21:33:54 <bmotik> peter: This was done in order to turn a one-place thing into a two-place thing

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: This was done in order to turn a one-place thing into a two-place thing ←

21:36:05 <bmotik> m_schneider: My proposal is to map owl:DeprecatedClass and owl:DeprecatedProperty into annotations in the structural spec

Michael Schneider: My proposal is to map owl:DeprecatedClass and owl:DeprecatedProperty into annotations in the structural spec ←

21:36:34 <bmotik> ianh: Do you care about round-tripping RDF -> FS -> RDF?

Ian Horrocks: Do you care about round-tripping RDF -> FS -> RDF? ←

21:39:11 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: Is it okay to read in an OWL 1 ontology (with deprecated classes) into an OWL 2 system -- then you write it out again, is it still OWL 1

STRAWPOLL: Is it okay to read in an OWL 1 ontology (with deprecated classes) into an OWL 2 system -- then you write it out again, is it still OWL 1 ←

21:39:16 <bmotik> ianh: You take an OWL 1 ontology with deprecated classes, you read it into an OWL 2 system, you write it out. Do we care about whether the deprecated triples are the same?

Ian Horrocks: You take an OWL 1 ontology with deprecated classes, you read it into an OWL 2 system, you write it out. Do we care about whether the deprecated triples are the same? ←

21:40:32 <bmotik> m_schneider objects to this

m_schneider objects to this ←

21:40:39 <sandro> JJC: It only costs two mapping rules to preserve this.      If this is the only time we violate the round tripping (1->2->1) goal, then I'm for including the ugly hack mapping rules.

Unknown JJC: It only costs two mapping rules to preserve this. If this is the only time we violate the round tripping (1->2->1) goal, then I'm for including the ugly hack mapping rules. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:40:52 <bmotik> m_schneider: If we have an RDF graph with some deprecation statements.

Michael Schneider: If we have an RDF graph with some deprecation statements. ←

21:41:05 <bmotik> m_schneider: I put such an ontology into an OWL Full reasoner

Michael Schneider: I put such an ontology into an OWL Full reasoner ←

21:41:21 <bmotik> m_schneider: I put it into an OWL DL system, and serialize it again

Michael Schneider: I put it into an OWL DL system, and serialize it again ←

21:41:34 <bmotik> m_schneider: What ia get in the end is something that is quite different from what I started with

Michael Schneider: What I get in the end is something that is quite different from what I started with ←

21:41:44 <bmotik> s/ia/I

21:41:56 <sandro> JJC: it's reasonable to do a sparql query for deprecated classes and assume if you don't get any that you don't have any deprecated classes.

Unknown JJC: it's reasonable to do a sparql query for deprecated classes and assume if you don't get any that you don't have any deprecated classes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:42:43 <sandro> JJC: Because DeprecatedClass has only informal semantics, using sparql query is plausible.

Unknown JJC: Because DeprecatedClass has only informal semantics, using sparql query is plausible. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:42:43 <bmotik> bijan: What is the general cost of existing ontologies?

Bijan Parsia: What is the general cost of existing ontologies? ←

21:43:05 <bmotik> bijan: If this is a corner case in practice, this might not be worth investigating

Bijan Parsia: If this is a corner case in practice, this might not be worth investigating ←

21:43:30 <bmotik> achille: I agree with m_schneider that this might be a problem, but we might put the compatibility bar too high

Achille Fokoue: I agree with m_schneider that this might be a problem, but we might put the compatibility bar too high ←

21:43:59 <bmotik> achille: You can have the ability in your tool to preserve depecations

Achille Fokoue: You can have the ability in your tool to preserve depecations ←

21:44:13 <bmotik> achille: I don't see the absolute need with perfect round-tripping

Achille Fokoue: I don't see the absolute need with perfect round-tripping ←

21:44:18 <sandro> achille: it could be a value-added feature that your OWL 2 tool can maintain OWL 1 ontologies, but we shouldn't mandate it.

Achille Fokoue: it could be a value-added feature that your OWL 2 tool can maintain OWL 1 ontologies, but we shouldn't mandate it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:44:41 <sandro> bmotik: I see the question as more: do we want to have deprecation?

Boris Motik: I see the question as more: do we want to have deprecation? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:45:08 <bmotik> rinke: The functional-syntax is suited for OWL DL

Rinke Hoekstra: The functional-syntax is suited for OWL DL ←

21:45:25 <bmotik> rinke: I cannot really imagine anyone loading an OWL Full ontology in an OWL DL tool

Rinke Hoekstra: I cannot really imagine anyone loading an OWL Full ontology in an OWL DL tool ←

21:45:31 <bmotik> rinke: Deprecation is a tool issue

Rinke Hoekstra: Deprecation is a tool issue ←

21:45:53 <bmotik> m_schneider: I create an OWL DL ontology with Protege

Michael Schneider: I create an OWL DL ontology with Protege ←

21:46:12 <bmotik> m_schneider: I want to use an OWL Full reasoner to get additional entailments

Michael Schneider: I want to use an OWL Full reasoner to get additional entailments ←

21:46:18 <bmotik> m_schneider: To me this is a valid use case

Michael Schneider: To me this is a valid use case ←

21:46:53 <bmotik> jjc: The issue is whether we want to have deprecation

Unknown jjc: The issue is whether we want to have deprecation ←

21:47:04 <bmotik> alanr: I'm taking it as given that we are not getting rid of it

Alan Ruttenberg: I'm taking it as given that we are not getting rid of it ←

21:47:09 <bmotik> jjc: My point, alanr

Unknown jjc: My point, alanr ←

21:47:31 <bmotik> jjc: There clearly is a use for deprecation

Unknown jjc: There clearly is a use for deprecation ←

21:47:57 <bmotik> peter: I do not believe that the WG has made any decision about deprecating Deprecation

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: I do not believe that the WG has made any decision about deprecating Deprecation ←

21:48:23 <bmotik> alanr: I don't think it would be a good decision to deprecate deprecations because this might give us problems

Alan Ruttenberg: I don't think it would be a good decision to deprecate deprecations because this might give us problems ←

21:48:46 <bmotik> jjc: If we are not going to deprecate deprecations, then let's just do a bit of hackery to make it work

Unknown jjc: If we are not going to deprecate deprecations, then let's just do a bit of hackery to make it work ←

21:49:55 <bmotik> ACTION: bmotik2 to Propose a way to reintroduce annotations into the structural specification and to provide RDF mappings

ACTION: bmotik2 to Propose a way to reintroduce annotations into the structural specification and to provide RDF mappings ←

21:49:55 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-130 - Propose a way to reintroduce annotations into the structural specification and to provide RDF mappings [on Boris Motik - due 2008-04-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-130 - Propose a way to reintroduce annotations into the structural specification and to provide RDF mappings [on Boris Motik - due 2008-04-10]. ←

21:50:07 <sandro> PROPOSED: Hack the RDF mapping and functional syntax as necessary to allow DeprecatedClass and DeprecatedProperty to work as in OWL 1

PROPOSED: Hack the RDF mapping and functional syntax as necessary to allow DeprecatedClass and DeprecatedProperty to work as in OWL 1 ←

21:50:32 <m_schnei> ian, i don't understand what you mean by "roundtripping through OWL2 DL"?

Michael Schneider: ian, i don't understand what you mean by "roundtripping through OWL2 DL"? ←

21:50:48 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90, resolved.  We will hack the RDF mapping and functional syntax as necessary to allow DeprecatedClass and DeprecatedProperty to work as in OWL 1

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90, resolved. We will hack the RDF mapping and functional syntax as necessary to allow DeprecatedClass and DeprecatedProperty to work as in OWL 1 ←

21:51:04 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-90, resolved.  We will hack the RDF mapping and functional syntax as necessary to allow DeprecatedClass and DeprecatedProperty to work as in OWL 1

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-90, resolved. We will hack the RDF mapping and functional syntax as necessary to allow DeprecatedClass and DeprecatedProperty to work as in OWL 1 ←

21:51:11 <bmotik> No objectors, resolved unanimously

No objectors, resolved unanimously ←

21:51:30 <bmotik> alanr: ISSUE-91: Spec lacks ontology properties

Alan Ruttenberg: ISSUE-91: Spec lacks ontology properties ←

21:53:48 <sandro> JJC: I would be happy with a NOTE saying These are only intended to be used on ontologies.

Unknown JJC: I would be happy with a NOTE saying These are only intended to be used on ontologies. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:53:55 <bmotik> jjc: Add a note that these ontology properties should be used only on ontologies

Unknown jjc: Add a note that these ontology properties should be used only on ontologies ←

21:56:26 <sandro> NOT-PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-91, with text saying not to do this (ontology properties should only be used to relate ontologies -- if you go against our advice, you're on your own.

Scribe problem: the name 'NOT-PROPOSED' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown NOT-PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-91, with text saying not to do this (ontology properties should only be used to relate ontologies -- if you go against our advice, you're on your own. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:57:51 <m_schnei> why not introducing OntologyAnnotationProperties? ;-)

Michael Schneider: why not introducing OntologyAnnotationProperties? ;-) ←

21:57:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-91, with text saying not to do this (ontology properties should only be used to relate ontologies -- if you go against our advice, you're on your own.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-91, with text saying not to do this (ontology properties should only be used to relate ontologies -- if you go against our advice, you're on your own. ←

21:57:55 <bmotik> PROPOSED: Reolsve ISSUE-91 by adding a note in the structural spec by saying that ontology properties should not be used elsewhere as annotations

PROPOSED: Reolsve ISSUE-91 by adding a note in the structural spec by saying that ontology properties should not be used elsewhere as annotations ←

21:58:17 <sandro> Ian: there are no entailments in DL.   In Full, you may get weird entailments if you violate these rules.

Ian Horrocks: there are no entailments in DL. In Full, you may get weird entailments if you violate these rules. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

21:58:30 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-91, with text saying not to do this (ontology properties should only be used to relate ontologies -- if you go against our advice, you're on your own.

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-91, with text saying not to do this (ontology properties should only be used to relate ontologies -- if you go against our advice, you're on your own. ←

21:58:48 <sandro> ADJOURN

Sandro Hawke: ADJOURN ←

21:59:26 <m_schnei> exit

Michael Schneider: exit ←

22:00:13 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

22:00:13 <sandro> Zakim, drop Meeting_Room

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, drop Meeting_Room ←

22:00:15 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a party named 'Meeting_Room'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, sandro, I do not see a party named 'Meeting_Room' ←

22:02:04 <bmotik> Resolution of ISSUE-91: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=Syntax&diff=5375&oldid=5331

Resolution of ISSUE-91: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=Syntax&diff=5375&oldid=5331 ←

22:02:28 <Zakim> -meetingRoom

Scribe problem: the name 'meetingRoom' does not match any of the 52 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -meetingRoom ←

22:02:30 <Zakim> Team_(owl)13:09Z has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)13:09Z has ended ←

22:02:31 <Zakim> Attendees were Elisa_Kendall, Sandro, Owlf2f, Meeting_Room, Deb_McGuinness, meetingRoom

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Elisa_Kendall, Sandro, Owlf2f, Meeting_Room, Deb_McGuinness, meetingRoom ←

Formatted by CommonScribe