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OWL Working Group

Minutes of 10 March 2008

Seen
Achille Fokoue, Alan Ruttenberg, Boris Motik, Michael Smith, Peter Patel-Schneider, Unknown jjc
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Michael Smith
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14:03:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/10-owl-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/10-owl-irc

14:03:53 <alanr> zakim, this is owl

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, this is owl

14:03:53 <Zakim> ok, alanr; that matches SW_OWL()10:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, alanr; that matches SW_OWL()10:00AM

14:03:58 <alanr> zakim, who is here?

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is here?

14:03:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, msmith, [IBM], Alan_Ruttenberg

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P4, msmith, [IBM], Alan_Ruttenberg

14:03:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jjc, alanr, Zakim, Achille, bmotik, msmith, trackbot-ng, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, jjc, alanr, Zakim, Achille, bmotik, msmith, trackbot-ng, sandro

14:04:00 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13

14:04:06 <jjc> zakim, ??P13 is me

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: zakim, ??P13 is me

14:04:06 <Zakim> +jjc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jjc; got it

14:04:11 <bmotik> Zakim, ??p4 is me

Boris Motik: Zakim, ??p4 is me

14:04:11 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik; got it

14:04:16 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me

Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me

14:04:16 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted

14:04:38 <alanr> zakim, who is here?

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is here?

14:04:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), msmith, [IBM], Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bmotik (muted), msmith, [IBM], Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc

14:04:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jjc, alanr, Zakim, Achille, bmotik, msmith, trackbot-ng, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, jjc, alanr, Zakim, Achille, bmotik, msmith, trackbot-ng, sandro

14:05:05 <alanr> zakim, [IBM] is Achille

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, [IBM] is Achille

14:05:05 <Zakim> +Achille; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Achille; got it

14:05:09 <alanr> zakim, who is here?

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is here?

14:05:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), msmith, Achille, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bmotik (muted), msmith, Achille, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc

14:05:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jjc, alanr, Zakim, Achille, bmotik, msmith, trackbot-ng, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, jjc, alanr, Zakim, Achille, bmotik, msmith, trackbot-ng, sandro

14:05:47 <msmith> ScribeNick: msmith

(Scribe set to Michael Smith)

14:06:42 <alanr> I like the fact that imports is by location, but two use cases aren't satisfied - Tool independent redirection to off line versions, for editing purposes, and versioning, as you mention below, and as described on the imports page.

Alan Ruttenberg: I like the fact that imports is by location, but two use cases aren't satisfied - Tool independent redirection to off line versions, for editing purposes, and versioning, as you mention below, and as described on the imports page.

14:07:29 <msmith> alanr: open for discussion on current state

Alan Ruttenberg: open for discussion on current state

14:08:12 <jjc> We are discussing the text in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0110

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: We are discussing the text in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Mar/0110

14:08:31 <msmith> achille: preferred solution would provide redirection, e.g., as in XML schema with a hint in the ontology

Achille Fokoue: preferred solution would provide redirection, e.g., as in XML schema with a hint in the ontology

14:08:41 <alanr> alanr has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports

Alan Ruttenberg: alanr has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports

14:09:27 <msmith> ...by location doesn't give as much flexibility.

...by location doesn't give as much flexibility.

14:09:35 <bmotik> q+

Boris Motik: q+

14:09:40 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me

Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me

14:09:40 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted

14:09:58 <bmotik> q-

Boris Motik: q-

14:10:01 <msmith> bmotik: achille, which solution are you referring to?

Boris Motik: achille, which solution are you referring to?

14:10:24 <msmith> achille: owl 1.0 and submission version of owl 1.1

Achille Fokoue: owl 1.0 and submission version of owl 1.1

14:11:06 <msmith> bmotik: but 1.0 was by location, 1.1 spec is by ontology URI, current proposals are by location with implementation override

Boris Motik: but 1.0 was by location, 1.1 spec is by ontology URI, current proposals are by location with implementation override

14:11:48 <msmith> achille: 1.0 by location is not what we want

Achille Fokoue: 1.0 by location is not what we want

14:11:54 <msmith> ...and I thought 1.1 was same

...and I thought 1.1 was same

14:12:19 <alanr> is the word "magic" there?

Alan Ruttenberg: is the word "magic" there?

14:12:19 <msmith> bmotik: no, 1.1 is by ontology URI (resolution to physical location is left unspecified)

Boris Motik: no, 1.1 is by ontology URI (resolution to physical location is left unspecified)

14:12:28 <alanr> -1 to magic

Alan Ruttenberg: -1 to magic

14:14:01 <msmith> bmotik: this is much about personal preference.  on web is 1 use cae, but in many cases very difficult

Boris Motik: this is much about personal preference. on web is 1 use cae, but in many cases very difficult

14:14:28 <msmith> ...current proposal is by location with explicit statement about implementation overriding

...current proposal is by location with explicit statement about implementation overriding

14:14:56 <msmith> jjc: three points

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: three points

14:15:32 <msmith> ...1) we mentioned giving suggestion for location to physical URI.  we can write that up

...1) we mentioned giving suggestion for location to physical URI. we can write that up

14:15:43 <alanr> hasn't gone away...

Alan Ruttenberg: hasn't gone away...

14:16:26 <msmith> ...2) ability to import RDF files, not OWL files (e.g., the foaf schema).  I.e., cases where ontology label is not present

...2) ability to import RDF files, not OWL files (e.g., the foaf schema). I.e., cases where ontology label is not present

14:17:48 <msmith> ...i.e., a change to by name might change how we interop with owl 1.0

...i.e., a change to by name might change how we interop with owl 1.0

14:19:09 <msmith> msmith: I am comfortable with current proposal (as described by boris) and some sort of hints.  but hints need not be normative

Michael Smith: I am comfortable with current proposal (as described by boris) and some sort of hints. but hints need not be normative

14:19:45 <alanr> What is the point of having an ontology header at all? (just to poke at that)

Alan Ruttenberg: What is the point of having an ontology header at all? (just to poke at that)

14:20:12 <msmith> bmotik: to address jjc use case 2, it could be handled by making a special condition when header is not present

Boris Motik: to address jjc use case 2, it could be handled by making a special condition when header is not present

14:20:27 <msmith> achille: this sounds like by name

Achille Fokoue: this sounds like by name

14:20:28 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

14:20:42 <msmith> bmotik: on the web name == location

Boris Motik: on the web name == location

14:20:58 <alanr> hi peter

Alan Ruttenberg: hi peter

14:21:05 <alanr> zakim, bookmark

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, bookmark

14:21:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'bookmark', alanr

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'bookmark', alanr

14:21:08 <msmith> achille: concern is that we're talking about URI, not URL.  this is conceptual

Achille Fokoue: concern is that we're talking about URI, not URL. this is conceptual

14:21:10 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is on the phone?

14:21:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik, msmith, Achille, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc, Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bmotik, msmith, Achille, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc, Peter_Patel-Schneider

14:21:13 <msmith> q+

q+

14:21:20 <msmith> q-

q-

14:21:30 <alanr> rrsagent, bookmark

Alan Ruttenberg: rrsagent, bookmark

14:21:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/10-owl-irc#T14-21-30

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/10-owl-irc#T14-21-30

14:21:57 <msmith> achille: I might phrase this differently.  It is import by name, and by default location should be the same location

Achille Fokoue: I might phrase this differently. It is import by name, and by default location should be the same location

14:22:07 <msmith> bmotik: that's the way I want to look at it.

Boris Motik: that's the way I want to look at it.

14:22:34 <msmith> achille: ok.  this is a matter of taste and perspective

Achille Fokoue: ok. this is a matter of taste and perspective

14:22:43 <pfps> it needs to made readable

Peter Patel-Schneider: it needs to made readable

14:22:56 <alanr> rrsagent, make log public

Alan Ruttenberg: rrsagent, make log public

14:23:48 <msmith> alanr: jjc's point on files w/o ontology header is new and important

Alan Ruttenberg: jjc's point on files w/o ontology header is new and important

14:24:07 <msmith> ...I like assumption of import by location

...I like assumption of import by location

14:24:46 <msmith> ...I like minimum specified for import redirection (mapping of names)

...I like minimum specified for import redirection (mapping of names)

14:25:28 <jjc> q+ to suggest *informative* remapping rules ...

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: q+ to suggest *informative* remapping rules ...

14:25:39 <msmith> ...can we discuss why we need ontology header at all?  I don't see need to check name vs location loaded from

...can we discuss why we need ontology header at all? I don't see need to check name vs location loaded from

14:25:41 <bmotik> q+ to discuss checking ontology headers

Boris Motik: q+ to discuss checking ontology headers

14:26:35 <msmith> pfps: my recent email covers my position

Peter Patel-Schneider: my recent email covers my position

14:26:56 <msmith> ... http://www.w3.org/mid/20080307.100929.46881308.pfps@research.bell-labs.com

... http://www.w3.org/mid/20080307.100929.46881308.pfps@research.bell-labs.com

14:28:03 <msmith> jjc: I'd prefer *informative* mapping rules b/c this is an interoperability point that is not too important

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: I'd prefer *informative* mapping rules b/c this is an interoperability point that is not too important

14:28:09 <pfps> +1 to jeremy's position

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to jeremy's position

14:28:26 <alanr> ack jjc

Alan Ruttenberg: ack jjc

14:28:26 <Zakim> jjc, you wanted to suggest *informative* remapping rules ...

Zakim IRC Bot: jjc, you wanted to suggest *informative* remapping rules ...

14:28:29 <bmotik> +1 to jeremy

Boris Motik: +1 to jeremy

14:28:40 <alanr> -1 to not important

Alan Ruttenberg: -1 to not important

14:29:38 <msmith> bmotik: if name and location should be the same, then it is dangerous if header is different.  additional check, in case where header is present,  is helpful.

Boris Motik: if name and location should be the same, then it is dangerous if header is different. additional check, in case where header is present, is helpful.

14:29:38 <alanr> q+

Alan Ruttenberg: q+

14:29:42 <alanr> ack bmotik

Alan Ruttenberg: ack bmotik

14:29:42 <Zakim> bmotik, you wanted to discuss checking ontology headers

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik, you wanted to discuss checking ontology headers

14:29:43 <bmotik> q-

Boris Motik: q-

14:30:20 <msmith> alanr: I judge importance of mapping higher than stated

Alan Ruttenberg: I judge importance of mapping higher than stated

14:30:39 <msmith> ...curious to what damage would be with simple normative mechanism

...curious to what damage would be with simple normative mechanism

14:31:29 <msmith> ...specify mapping file, tool should respect unless it is explicitly overridden

...specify mapping file, tool should respect unless it is explicitly overridden

14:31:59 <pfps> what is an "ontology header"?

Peter Patel-Schneider: what is an "ontology header"?

14:32:14 <pfps> what is an "ontology element"?

Peter Patel-Schneider: what is an "ontology element"?

14:32:30 <msmith> alanr: re ontology header, I *thought* that avoiding repeated import of the same ontology would be presented as a motivating use case

Alan Ruttenberg: re ontology header, I *thought* that avoiding repeated import of the same ontology would be presented as a motivating use case

14:32:33 <pfps> yes, but which one?

Peter Patel-Schneider: yes, but which one?

14:32:52 <pfps> the RDF situation is completely broken

Peter Patel-Schneider: the RDF situation is completely broken

14:32:59 <msmith> bmotik: ontology header is naming triple

Boris Motik: ontology header is naming triple

14:33:12 <msmith> alanr: as pfps points out, there can be more than one

Alan Ruttenberg: as pfps points out, there can be more than one

14:33:39 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

14:33:45 <alanr> ACK alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: ACK alanr

14:33:47 <msmith> alanr: I've never run into the case where tool helps user based on checking the header

Alan Ruttenberg: I've never run into the case where tool helps user based on checking the header

14:33:50 <alanr> ack pfps

Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps

14:33:53 <jjc> q+ to argue for ontology header (as devil's advocate ....)

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: q+ to argue for ontology header (as devil's advocate ....)

14:34:19 <alanr> jjc - how about saying what the damage is for having normative mechanism

Alan Ruttenberg: jjc - how about saying what the damage is for having normative mechanism

14:34:30 <pfps> that doesn't work unless you change imports and ontology properties

Peter Patel-Schneider: that doesn't work unless you change imports and ontology properties

14:34:36 <msmith> bmotik: I agree the RDF case is broken, but that is b/c there isn't a ontology to graph mapping

Boris Motik: I agree the RDF case is broken, but that is b/c there isn't a ontology to graph mapping

14:34:49 <alanr> ack jjc

Alan Ruttenberg: ack jjc

14:34:49 <Zakim> jjc, you wanted to argue for ontology header (as devil's advocate ....)

Zakim IRC Bot: jjc, you wanted to argue for ontology header (as devil's advocate ....)

14:35:19 <msmith> pfps: a couple problems on rdf side re: what is the ontology?

Peter Patel-Schneider: a couple problems on rdf side re: what is the ontology?

14:35:22 <bmotik> bmotik: We could fix RDF to assign at most one URI to each RDF graph

Boris Motik: We could fix RDF to assign at most one URI to each RDF graph [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

14:36:28 <alanr> we could change this

Alan Ruttenberg: we could change this

14:36:35 <msmith> bmotik: in many cases ontology is not explicitly typed

Boris Motik: in many cases ontology is not explicitly typed

14:36:47 <msmith> jjc: I think to be legal 1.0 is must be explicit

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: I think to be legal 1.0 is must be explicit

14:36:56 <msmith> bmotik: I don't see that in many cases on the web

Boris Motik: I don't see that in many cases on the web

14:37:32 <msmith> jjc: type triple is in imported, not importer

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: type triple is in imported, not importer

14:37:59 <msmith> alanr: what's damage of normative mechanism

Alan Ruttenberg: what's damage of normative mechanism

14:38:42 <alanr> q+ to say that all redirection mechanism boil down to the same thing

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to say that all redirection mechanism boil down to the same thing

14:38:43 <msmith> jjc: wg are bad at specifying anything.  design by committee is wrong answer unless required.

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: wg are bad at specifying anything. design by committee is wrong answer unless required.

14:39:03 <alanr> q+ to add my suggestion allows override

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to add my suggestion allows override

14:39:04 <bmotik> But would we close this down?

Boris Motik: But would we close this down?

14:39:05 <msmith> ...being normative would prevent implementers from being smarter than us

...being normative would prevent implementers from being smarter than us

14:39:16 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q?

14:39:21 <bmotik> Developers could always implement *additional* mechanisms...

Boris Motik: Developers could always implement *additional* mechanisms...

14:39:28 <alanr> ack

Alan Ruttenberg: ack

14:39:55 <msmith> alanr: agree with boris' irc comments.  normative mechanism is only a baseline and any other mechanism could override the normative mechanism

Alan Ruttenberg: agree with boris' irc comments. normative mechanism is only a baseline and any other mechanism could override the normative mechanism

14:40:06 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

14:40:09 <msmith> ... at least then, we would have the basic interop

... at least then, we would have the basic interop

14:40:12 <alanr> ack pfps

Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps

14:40:16 <alanr> alanr alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: alanr alanr

14:40:19 <alanr> q+ pfps

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ pfps

14:40:22 <alanr> ack alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: ack alanr

14:40:22 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to say that all redirection mechanism boil down to the same thing and to add my suggestion allows override

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to say that all redirection mechanism boil down to the same thing and to add my suggestion allows override

14:40:33 <msmith> ... current tools all have the same basic mapping approach

... current tools all have the same basic mapping approach

14:40:35 <pfps> q+ to talk about installation difficulties

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ to talk about installation difficulties

14:40:40 <alanr> ack pfps

Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps

14:40:40 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to talk about installation difficulties

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps, you wanted to talk about installation difficulties

14:40:44 <msmith> jjc: ontology header useful for metadata about the ontology

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: ontology header useful for metadata about the ontology

14:41:03 <msmith> pfps: worries about working system that doesn't have root privileges

Peter Patel-Schneider: worries about working system that doesn't have root privileges

14:41:21 <msmith> ... you're talking about a common mapping between multiple tools and multiple users

... you're talking about a common mapping between multiple tools and multiple users

14:42:34 <msmith> alanr: interop here means moving from tool to tool w/o modifying my ontologies, or not changing mapping mechanism

Alan Ruttenberg: interop here means moving from tool to tool w/o modifying my ontologies, or not changing mapping mechanism

14:42:53 <msmith> pfps: I'm unconvinced, you're only solving 1/10th of the problem

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm unconvinced, you're only solving 1/10th of the problem

14:42:59 <bmotik> I agree with Peter

Boris Motik: I agree with Peter

14:43:09 <jjc> q+ to support peter

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: q+ to support peter

14:43:11 <msmith> ...it will only work sometimes, therefore cause more problems than it solves

...it will only work sometimes, therefore cause more problems than it solves

14:43:13 <bmotik> +q

Boris Motik: +q

14:43:42 <msmith> ...normative mechanism should facilitate collaborative editing

...normative mechanism should facilitate collaborative editing

14:43:45 <alanr> ack jjc

Alan Ruttenberg: ack jjc

14:43:45 <Zakim> jjc, you wanted to support peter

Zakim IRC Bot: jjc, you wanted to support peter

14:43:50 <msmith> alanr: that's a different use case

Alan Ruttenberg: that's a different use case

14:44:37 <alanr> q+ to ask what root privs have to do with anything

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to ask what root privs have to do with anything

14:44:59 <alanr> q+ don't see we can't specify

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ don't see we can't specify

14:45:00 <msmith> jjc: when talking applications vs. ontologies worrying about overcoming things like security issues is necessary, and those things are outside our area

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: when talking applications vs. ontologies worrying about overcoming things like security issues is necessary, and those things are outside our area

14:45:08 <alanr> ack bmotik

Alan Ruttenberg: ack bmotik

14:45:29 <msmith> bmotik: I'm fine saying there is some mechanism, there need not be an override

Boris Motik: I'm fine saying there is some mechanism, there need not be an override

14:45:49 <jjc> q+ to give a further problem of interop

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: q+ to give a further problem of interop

14:46:09 <msmith> ...this could be difficult b/c, e.g., where is the mapping file located?  local homedir, on web, file open dialog, database?

...this could be difficult b/c, e.g., where is the mapping file located? local homedir, on web, file open dialog, database?

14:46:12 <alanr> you have to give a uri to your tool somehow.

Alan Ruttenberg: you have to give a uri to your tool somehow.

14:46:19 <msmith> ...it would be useful, but I don't think it is necessary

...it would be useful, but I don't think it is necessary

14:46:20 <alanr> ack alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: ack alanr

14:46:20 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to ask what root privs have to do with anything

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to ask what root privs have to do with anything

14:46:29 <msmith> ...and it may be  too complex

...and it may be too complex

14:46:40 <jjc> q-

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: q-

14:46:45 <msmith> ... doing so may require too many assumptions to be useful

... doing so may require too many assumptions to be useful

14:46:58 <msmith> alanr: I don't see the complexity

Alan Ruttenberg: I don't see the complexity

14:47:10 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

14:47:22 <jjc> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: q+

14:47:35 <msmith> ... any tool needs some way to specify where an ontology is.  the mapping file requires the same thing.

... any tool needs some way to specify where an ontology is. the mapping file requires the same thing.

14:47:37 <alanr> ack pfps

Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps

14:48:24 <msmith> pfps: if you had, any tool could point to some location which would contain some mapping files, then its easier, but then user must arrange to have the mapping files be the same

Peter Patel-Schneider: if you had, any tool could point to some location which would contain some mapping files, then its easier, but then user must arrange to have the mapping files be the same

14:48:26 <bmotik> +1 to peter

Boris Motik: +1 to peter

14:49:39 <msmith> ... I see problems for implementers b/c functionality would only be used sometimes

... I see problems for implementers b/c functionality would only be used sometimes

14:49:50 <msmith> ... the inconsistency would be problematic

... the inconsistency would be problematic

14:49:59 <bmotik> +q to give an example of a system that thes not use files at all

Boris Motik: +q to give an example of a system that thes not use files at all

14:50:13 <alanr> ack jjc

Alan Ruttenberg: ack jjc

14:50:26 <msmith> alanr: this makes everyone suffer b/c some people will do silly things.  but we know this can be useful in some cases

Alan Ruttenberg: this makes everyone suffer b/c some people will do silly things. but we know this can be useful in some cases

14:51:05 <alanr> q+ to ask how this is any different from import by location?

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to ask how this is any different from import by location?

14:51:06 <msmith> jjc: maybe a tool specific URI format.  so remapping interoperably is already limiting storage types

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: maybe a tool specific URI format. so remapping interoperably is already limiting storage types

14:51:38 <msmith> ....e.g., jena users have complained about internal URIs that aren't meant for interoperability

....e.g., jena users have complained about internal URIs that aren't meant for interoperability

14:52:24 <msmith> bmotik: ontoprise people use ontologies without any files b/c they are all stored in a database.  Requiring a "file" doesn't make sense

Boris Motik: ontoprise people use ontologies without any files b/c they are all stored in a database. Requiring a "file" doesn't make sense

14:52:29 <alanr> q+ to ask where we have consensus

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to ask where we have consensus

14:52:29 <alanr> ack bmotik

Alan Ruttenberg: ack bmotik

14:52:29 <alanr> ao

Alan Ruttenberg: ao

14:52:30 <Zakim> bmotik, you wanted to give an example of a system that thes not use files at all

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik, you wanted to give an example of a system that thes not use files at all

14:52:49 <alanr> ack alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: ack alanr

14:52:49 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to ask how this is any different from import by location? and to ask where we have consensus

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to ask how this is any different from import by location? and to ask where we have consensus

14:53:01 <msmith> alanr: do we agree on import by location?

Alan Ruttenberg: do we agree on import by location?

14:53:06 <jjc> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: +1

14:53:11 <msmith> bmotik: with override

Boris Motik: with override

14:53:14 <msmith> alanr: yes.

Alan Ruttenberg: yes.

14:53:15 <jjc> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: +1

14:53:15 <Achille> +1 with override

Achille Fokoue: +1 with override

14:53:17 <msmith> +1

+1

14:53:21 <bmotik> +1 to import by location with an override

Boris Motik: +1 to import by location with an override

14:53:56 <msmith> alanr: not in agreement on what is in ontology header.  there are issues with current rdf version.  we don't have a mechanism to fix that.

Alan Ruttenberg: not in agreement on what is in ontology header. there are issues with current rdf version. we don't have a mechanism to fix that.

14:54:08 <bmotik> 0

Boris Motik: 0

14:54:09 <msmith> alanr: consensus on informative rediction being acceptable?

Alan Ruttenberg: consensus on informative redirection being acceptable?

14:54:43 <msmith> s/rediction/redirection/
14:54:44 <pfps> I'm willing to have the spec say that tools can override

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm willing to have the spec say that tools can override

14:54:56 <jjc> +0

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: +0

14:55:02 <bmotik> +0 because I see it as useful, but if it costs us too much time to come up, then I would drop it.

Boris Motik: +0 because I see it as useful, but if it costs us too much time to come up, then I would drop it.

14:55:02 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1

14:55:09 <msmith> alanr: we agree we might specify *informative* method for redirection

Alan Ruttenberg: we agree we might specify *informative* method for redirection

14:55:11 <msmith> ?

?

14:55:36 <pfps> +.5

Peter Patel-Schneider: +.5

14:55:44 <msmith> +0 with boris' comments

+0 with boris' comments

14:56:03 <msmith> alanr: we have close enough to agreement

Alan Ruttenberg: we have close enough to agreement

14:56:15 <jjc> q+ to note weakness of vote for informative mechanism

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: q+ to note weakness of vote for informative mechanism

14:56:19 <pfps> and versioning

Peter Patel-Schneider: and versioning

14:56:22 <alanr> ack jjc

Alan Ruttenberg: ack jjc

14:56:22 <Zakim> jjc, you wanted to note weakness of vote for informative mechanism

Zakim IRC Bot: jjc, you wanted to note weakness of vote for informative mechanism

14:56:25 <msmith> no one objects

no one objects

14:56:43 <msmith> jjc: there were 2.5 votes for informative mechanism, which appears to be below consensus

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: there were 2.5 votes for informative mechanism, which appears to be below consensus

14:56:47 <msmith> -1 to raising this in main wg

-1 to raising this in main wg

14:57:07 <msmith> jjc: maybe we should raise at main wg

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: maybe we should raise at main wg

14:57:12 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q?

14:57:19 <msmith> alanr: just meant as straw poll, to see where we were

Alan Ruttenberg: just meant as straw poll, to see where we were

14:57:49 <bmotik> +q to answer about the DB case

Boris Motik: +q to answer about the DB case

14:58:03 <msmith> alanr: case of database storage of ontologies, if imports are specified by location we don't handle those cases

Alan Ruttenberg: case of database storage of ontologies, if imports are specified by location we don't handle those cases

14:58:23 <msmith> q+ to ask clarifying question for db case

q+ to ask clarifying question for db case

14:58:34 <msmith> alanr: override makes it possible

Alan Ruttenberg: override makes it possible

14:59:05 <alanr> ack bmotik

Alan Ruttenberg: ack bmotik

14:59:05 <Zakim> bmotik, you wanted to answer about the DB case

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik, you wanted to answer about the DB case

14:59:06 <msmith> bmotik: yes.  the database case is something a tool can do

Boris Motik: yes. the database case is something a tool can do

14:59:38 <alanr> bye

Alan Ruttenberg: bye

14:59:39 <msmith> ...point is define as by location with override.  then tool can do whatever it wants

...point is define as by location with override. then tool can do whatever it wants

14:59:40 <msmith> q-

q-

14:59:42 <Zakim> -jjc

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 50 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -jjc

14:59:58 <msmith> ...if informative mapping, then tool can ignore

...if informative mapping, then tool can ignore

15:00:08 <msmith> ...if normative, it would constrain tool

...if normative, it would constrain tool

15:00:17 <msmith> alanr: you may have misunderstood

Alan Ruttenberg: you may have misunderstood

15:00:23 <msmith> ... proposal is 3 levels

... proposal is 3 levels

15:00:32 <msmith> ... 1) by location (in ontology)

... 1) by location (in ontology)

15:00:44 <msmith> ... 2) mapping specified

... 2) mapping specified

15:00:49 <msmith> ... 3) override by tool

... 3) override by tool

15:01:10 <msmith> bmotik: how did we get there?  that's not how I understood the straw poll

Boris Motik: how did we get there? that's not how I understood the straw poll

15:02:12 <msmith> alanr: I was addressing the database case. and whether it would make a *normative* mapping mechanism worse

Alan Ruttenberg: I was addressing the database case. and whether it would make a *normative* mapping mechanism worse

15:02:35 <msmith> bmotik: normative mechanism puts assumption on how tools work with ontologies

Boris Motik: normative mechanism puts assumption on how tools work with ontologies

15:02:48 <alanr> a tool can do whatever it wants. But if it does nothing, then it respects the mechanism specified.

Alan Ruttenberg: a tool can do whatever it wants. But if it does nothing, then it respects the mechanism specified.

15:03:14 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

15:03:17 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1

15:03:18 <msmith> alanr: sounds like one more meeting, then go back to wg?

Alan Ruttenberg: sounds like one more meeting, then go back to wg?

15:03:19 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

15:03:20 <msmith> +1

+1

15:03:29 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alan_Ruttenberg

15:03:31 <Zakim> -msmith

Zakim IRC Bot: -msmith

15:03:31 <Zakim> -bmotik

Zakim IRC Bot: -bmotik

15:03:32 <Zakim> -Achille

Zakim IRC Bot: -Achille

15:04:30 <alanr> rrsagent, draft minutes

Alan Ruttenberg: rrsagent, draft minutes

15:04:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/10-owl-minutes.html alanr

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/10-owl-minutes.html alanr

15:04:50 <alanr> rrsagent, make minutes world-readable

Alan Ruttenberg: rrsagent, make minutes world-readable

15:04:50 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-readable', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-readable', alanr. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:04:58 <alanr> rrsagent, make minutes world readable

Alan Ruttenberg: rrsagent, make minutes world readable

15:04:58 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world readable', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world readable', alanr. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:05:05 <alanr> rrsagent, make minutes public

Alan Ruttenberg: rrsagent, make minutes public

15:05:05 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', alanr. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:05:41 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

15:05:43 <Zakim> SW_OWL()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()10:00AM has ended

15:05:46 <Zakim> Attendees were msmith, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc, bmotik, Achille, Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were msmith, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc, bmotik, Achille, Peter_Patel-Schneider



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