Meeting Record

Web Ontology Language (OWL) Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 24 October 2007

Seen

Achille Fokoue, Alan Ruttenberg, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Bijan Parsia, Boris Motik, Deborah McGuinness, Elisa Kendall, Evan Wallace, Fabien Gandon, Giorgos Stoilos, Ian Horrocks, Jeff Pan, Michael Smith, Peter Patel-Schneider, Ratnesh Sahay, Rinke Hoekstra, Sandro Hawke, Tommie Meyer, Uli Sattler, Unknown CarstenLutz, Unknown Carsten, Unknown JeremyCarroll, Unknown jjc, Vipul Kashyap, Vit Novacek, Zhe Wu

Regrets

Unknown (in Germany? worldwide?), Unknown telco.

Chair

Alan Ruttenberg

Scribe

Elisa Kendall

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

based on email discussions, this issue is reopened at this meeting link
accept minutes of meeting 10/24/2007 link
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html link
Documents to be edited using wiki markup facilities, but leave complicated markup in html. Revisit if there are problems. Target: Next TC link

Topics

Approval of Minutes
Wiki
Publication Schedule

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16:47:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-irc ←

16:47:53 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←

16:47:56 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be OWLWG

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be OWLWG ←

16:47:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot-ng; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes ←

16:47:58 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Web Ontology Language (OWL) Working Group Teleconference

16:48:00 <trackbot-ng> Date: 24 October 2007

16:51:19 <jjc> hello

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 40 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: hello ←

16:51:47 <sandro> Hey, Jeremy.

Sandro Hawke: Hey, Jeremy. ←

16:52:06 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started ←

16:52:13 <Zakim> + +1.312.052.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.312.052.aaaa ←

16:52:32 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←

16:53:09 <Rinke> Zakim, aaaa is Rinke

Rinke Hoekstra: Zakim, aaaa is Rinke ←

16:53:09 <Zakim> +Rinke; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Rinke; got it ←

16:55:22 <Zakim> + +49.351.4.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.351.4.aabb ←

16:55:25 <Zakim> -Rinke

Zakim IRC Bot: -Rinke ←

16:55:52 <Carsten> Zakim, aabb is Carsten

Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 40 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Carsten: Zakim, aabb is Carsten ←

16:55:52 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten; got it ←

16:56:07 <Zakim> +Rinke

Zakim IRC Bot: +Rinke ←

16:56:13 <Carsten> zakim, mute me

Unknown Carsten: zakim, mute me ←

16:56:13 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←

16:57:20 <Zakim> +Ian

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ian ←

16:57:49 <Zakim> +MikeSmith

Zakim IRC Bot: +MikeSmith ←

16:58:05 <Zakim> + +012736aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +012736aacc ←

16:58:16 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, aacc is me

Scribe problem: the name 'JeremyCarroll' does not match any of the 40 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown JeremyCarroll: Zakim, aacc is me ←

16:58:16 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +JeremyCarroll; got it ←

16:58:33 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←

16:58:47 <bijan> zakim, ??P5 is me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??P5 is me ←

16:58:47 <Zakim> +bijan; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bijan; got it ←

16:58:49 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10 ←

16:58:58 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

16:58:58 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

16:59:02 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

16:59:04 <vit> Zakim, ??P10 is me

Vit Novacek: Zakim, ??P10 is me ←

16:59:04 <Zakim> +??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38 ←

16:59:05 <Zakim> +vit; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +vit; got it ←

16:59:17 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P38 is bmotik

Boris Motik: Zakim, ??P38 is bmotik ←

16:59:17 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik; got it ←

16:59:25 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me

Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←

16:59:25 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←

16:59:41 <Zakim> +??P39

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39 ←

16:59:43 <sandro> scribe: Elisa

(Scribe set to Elisa Kendall)

16:59:50 <pfps> zakim, ??p39 is me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, ??p39 is me ←

16:59:50 <Zakim> +pfps; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps; got it ←

17:00:05 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make minutes ←

17:00:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-minutes.html sandro

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-minutes.html sandro ←

17:00:27 <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap

Zakim IRC Bot: +Vipul_Kashyap ←

17:00:31 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

17:00:32 <Zakim> +??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P41 ←

17:00:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, ??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, ??P41 ←

17:00:50 <Zakim> +Alan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alan ←

17:01:09 <TommieMeyer> Zakim, ??p41 is me

Tommie Meyer: Zakim, ??p41 is me ←

17:01:09 <Zakim> +TommieMeyer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TommieMeyer; got it ←

17:01:11 <Zakim> +[IBM]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM] ←

17:01:23 <Zakim> +??P29

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P29 ←

17:01:44 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

17:01:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, TommieMeyer

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, TommieMeyer ←

17:01:48 <Zakim> ... (muted), Alan, [IBM], ??P29 (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: ... (muted), Alan, [IBM], ??P29 (muted) ←

17:01:51 <Zakim> +??P45

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P45 ←

17:02:03 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aadd ←

17:02:07 <uli> zakim, ??P29 is me

Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P29 is me ←

17:02:07 <Zakim> +uli; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←

17:02:23 <Zakim> +??P46

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P46 ←

17:02:26 <sandro> Zakim, IBM is temporarily Achelle

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, IBM is temporarily Achelle ←

17:02:26 <Zakim> +Achelle; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Achelle; got it ←

17:03:02 <achille> sandro, it is Achille - not AchElle.

Achille Fokoue: sandro, it is Achille - not AchElle. ←

17:03:17 <sandro> Zakim, Achelle is Achille

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, Achelle is Achille ←

17:03:17 <Zakim> +Achille; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Achille; got it ←

17:03:28 <sandro> Sorry, Achille!

Sandro Hawke: Sorry, Achille! ←

17:03:32 <achille> no problem

Achille Fokoue: no problem ←

17:03:36 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←

17:03:38 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←

17:03:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, TommieMeyer

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, TommieMeyer ←

17:03:40 <Zakim> ... (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), ??P45, +1.603.897.aadd, ??P46, ??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: ... (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), ??P45, +1.603.897.aadd, ??P46, ??P2 ←

17:04:24 <dlm> deborah mcguinness also just joined on the phone (and irc)

Deborah McGuinness: deborah mcguinness also just joined on the phone (and irc) ←

17:04:43 <pfps> zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me ←

17:04:43 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should now be muted ←

17:04:51 <sandro> present on unknown phone lines: Ratnesh Sahay (DERI), Zhe Wu (Oracle), and Bernardo Cuenca Grau (UM)

Sandro Hawke: present on unknown phone lines: Ratnesh Sahay (DERI), Zhe Wu (Oracle), and Bernardo Cuenca Grau (UM) ←

17:05:07 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace

Zakim IRC Bot: +Evan_Wallace ←

17:05:35 <Zakim> +GiorgosStoilos

Zakim IRC Bot: +GiorgosStoilos ←

17:05:43 <sandro> Zakim, aadd is Zhe_Wu

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, aadd is Zhe_Wu ←

17:05:43 <Zakim> +Zhe_Wu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Zhe_Wu; got it ←

17:05:53 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

17:05:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap, ←

17:05:57 <Zakim> ... TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), ??P45, Zhe_Wu, ??P46, ??P2, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos

Zakim IRC Bot: ... TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), ??P45, Zhe_Wu, ??P46, ??P2, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos ←

17:06:51 <Zakim> +JeffP

Zakim IRC Bot: +JeffP ←

17:07:10 <Zakim> +FabienG

Zakim IRC Bot: +FabienG ←

17:07:24 <dlm> how can i check what p i am?

Deborah McGuinness: how can i check what p i am? ←

17:07:55 <Zakim> -??P46

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P46 ←

17:08:37 <sandro> Zakim, ??P2 is Deborah

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, ??P2 is Deborah ←

17:08:37 <Zakim> +Deborah; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Deborah; got it ←

17:08:41 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q- ←

17:08:54 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←

17:08:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap, ←

17:08:57 <Zakim> ... TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), ??P45, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG

Zakim IRC Bot: ... TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), ??P45, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG ←

17:09:28 <sandro> Zakim, ??P45 is Bernardo

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, ??P45 is Bernardo ←

17:09:28 <Zakim> +Bernardo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Bernardo; got it ←

17:09:54 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←

17:09:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap, ←

17:09:57 <Zakim> ... TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), Bernardo, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG

Zakim IRC Bot: ... TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), Bernardo, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG ←

17:11:07 <Zakim> +??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35 ←

17:11:26 <sandro> Zakim, ??P35 is Ratnesh

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, ??P35 is Ratnesh ←

17:11:26 <Zakim> +Ratnesh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ratnesh; got it ←

17:11:43 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.10.24/Agenda

Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.10.24/Agenda ←

17:12:39 <sandro> Topic: Approval of Minutes

1. Approval of Minutes

17:13:07 <Zakim> -Vipul_Kashyap

Zakim IRC Bot: -Vipul_Kashyap ←

17:13:21 <alanr> not: RESOLVED: Our first working drafts, to be published before the 3-month heartbeat, will be one: (1) Structural Specification, (2) Semantics. We may include (3) RDF Mapping in this list. These are based on the text for each of these at http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/

Scribe problem: the name 'not' does not match any of the 40 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown not: RESOLVED: Our first working drafts, to be published before the 3-month heartbeat, will be one: (1) Structural Specification, (2) Semantics. We may include (3) RDF Mapping in this list. These are based on the text for each of these at http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/ [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←

17:13:40 <Elisa> Resolved: based on email discussions, this issue is reopened at this meeting

RESOLVED: based on email discussions, this issue is reopened at this meeting ←

17:13:41 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←

17:13:41 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-irc#T17-13-41

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-irc#T17-13-41 ←

17:14:16 <sandro> Topic: Wiki

2. Wiki

17:14:29 <Elisa> Resolved: accept minutes of meeting 10/24/2007

RESOLVED: accept minutes of meeting 10/24/2007 ←

17:14:42 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ ←

17:14:48 <pfps> zakim, unmute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←

17:14:48 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should no longer be muted ←

17:15:02 <sandro> q- ??P2

Sandro Hawke: q- ??P2 ←

17:15:06 <sandro> ack pfps

Sandro Hawke: ack pfps ←

17:15:22 <Elisa> Peter: with regard to ACTION 1 from last week, will need this resolved in the near future

Peter Patel-Schneider: with regard to ACTION-1 from last week, will need this resolved in the near future ←

17:15:34 <Elisa> How can we transition this to the wiki if this isn't resolved

How can we transition this to the wiki if this isn't resolved ←

17:15:47 <Elisa> Sandro: action 1 is the log-ins?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-1 is the log-ins? ←

17:15:50 <Elisa> Peter: yest

Peter Patel-Schneider: yest ←

17:16:19 <Elisa> while we can redirect links, but we can't merge at this point

while we can redirect links, but we can't merge at this point ←

17:16:35 <Elisa> strategy may be to rename accounts, use open id

strategy may be to rename accounts, use open id ←

17:17:03 <Elisa> if the history is attributed to your old login name rather than new, that may not be a big issue

if the history is attributed to your old login name rather than new, that may not be a big issue ←

17:17:16 <MarkusK> Regrets: SkypeOut is broken (in Germany? worldwide?), my regrets for this telco.

Scribe problem: the name 'SkypeOut is broken (in Germany? worldwide?)' does not match any of the 37 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Zhe Wu

Scribe problem: the name 'my regrets for this telco.' does not match any of the 37 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Zhe Wu

17:17:37 <Elisa> Peter: it probably isn't too much of a problem if my inputs are split over two logins

Peter Patel-Schneider: it probably isn't too much of a problem if my inputs are split over two logins ←

17:18:09 <Elisa> Everyone can create logins with new names, since nothing has been edited yet

Everyone can create logins with new names, since nothing has been edited yet ←

17:18:24 <Elisa> Sandro: maybe W3C logins are the proper logins to use

Sandro Hawke: maybe W3C logins are the proper logins to use ←

17:18:38 <Elisa> Alan: let's take this up this week and try to resolve it

Alan Ruttenberg: let's take this up this week and try to resolve it ←

17:19:02 <pfps> ok, but I'm not going to wait to get the "right" login to start doing things then

Peter Patel-Schneider: ok, but I'm not going to wait to get the "right" login to start doing things then ←

17:19:06 <Elisa> Ian: there are more people on the call than have accounts on the wiki; everyone needs to create a wiki account

Ian Horrocks: there are more people on the call than have accounts on the wiki; everyone needs to create a wiki account ←

17:19:26 <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap

Zakim IRC Bot: +Vipul_Kashyap ←

17:19:42 <sandro> ACTION: Alan to send e-mail reminding and instructing people to make Wiki accounts

ACTION: Alan to send e-mail reminding and instructing people to make Wiki accounts ←

17:19:43 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-4 - Send e-mail reminding and instructing people to make Wiki accounts [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-10-31].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-4 - Send e-mail reminding and instructing people to make Wiki accounts [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-10-31]. ←

17:19:56 <pfps> zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me ←

17:19:56 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should now be muted ←

17:20:06 <Elisa> agendum Front Page

agendum Front Page ←

17:20:28 <Elisa> Alan: the front page should represent consensus of what we all think it should be and what W3C would

Alan Ruttenberg: the front page should represent consensus of what we all think it should be and what W3C would ←

17:20:32 <Elisa> like it to be

like it to be ←

17:20:46 <vipul> q+

Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←

17:20:58 <sandro> ack vipul

Sandro Hawke: ack vipul ←

17:20:59 <Elisa> If someone wants to change the front page, they should send a request to the chairs and they will

If someone wants to change the front page, they should send a request to the chairs and they will ←

17:21:02 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to prposal

Unknown JeremyCarroll: +1 to prposal ←

17:21:06 <Elisa> address it accordingly

address it accordingly ←

17:21:14 <bmotik> +1 to proposal

Boris Motik: +1 to proposal ←

17:21:22 <Rinke> +1 to proposal

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 to proposal ←

17:21:30 <TommieMeyer> +1 to proposal

Tommie Meyer: +1 to proposal ←

17:21:38 <CarstenLutz> +1 proposal

Scribe problem: the name 'CarstenLutz' does not match any of the 40 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown CarstenLutz: +1 proposal ←

17:21:38 <Elisa> Vipul: why is it a bad idea for anyone to add what they want (not disagreeing with guidelines, just asking)

Vipul Kashyap: why is it a bad idea for anyone to add what they want (not disagreeing with guidelines, just asking) ←

17:22:01 <Elisa> when something is approved or disapproved, some sort of reasons should be given, and an alternative proposed

when something is approved or disapproved, some sort of reasons should be given, and an alternative proposed ←

17:22:05 <uli> +1 to proposal

Uli Sattler: +1 to proposal ←

17:22:19 <vit> +1 to proposal

Vit Novacek: +1 to proposal ←

17:22:27 <Elisa> Alan: we should add these to the agenda and discuss

Alan Ruttenberg: we should add these to the agenda and discuss ←

17:22:41 <Ratnesh> +1

Ratnesh Sahay: +1 ←

17:22:55 <Elisa> I'm in favor of taking a wiki approach, that said, what does it mean to be as permissive as possible

I'm in favor of taking a wiki approach, that said, what does it mean to be as permissive as possible ←

17:23:04 <pfps> +1 to proposal, as accidents can end up making it hard to find things (yes you can go to the history, but ...)

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to proposal, as accidents can end up making it hard to find things (yes you can go to the history, but ...) ←

17:23:22 <Elisa> we should develop a set of policies that everyone can live with, but the front page may be special -

we should develop a set of policies that everyone can live with, but the front page may be special - ←

17:23:48 <Elisa> the front page may need to look a certain way depending on W3C policies, etc.

the front page may need to look a certain way depending on W3C policies, etc. ←

17:24:05 <Elisa> Vipul: I agree with what you're saying but this should evolve over time

Vipul Kashyap: I agree with what you're saying but this should evolve over time ←

17:24:29 <Elisa> Addition to agenda for next meeting to discuss further

Addition to agenda for next meeting to discuss further ←

17:24:47 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

17:24:47 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

17:24:59 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

17:24:59 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

17:25:03 <Elisa> Bijan pointed out Michelle's table from use cases

Bijan pointed out Michelle's table from use cases ←

17:25:15 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

17:25:19 <Elisa> Alan: any other comments on this proposal?

Alan Ruttenberg: any other comments on this proposal? ←

17:25:20 <achille> +1 for the proposal

Achille Fokoue: +1 for the proposal ←

17:25:43 <alanr> PROPOSED: Edits to the Front Page should be vetted by WG chairs

PROPOSED: Edits to the Front Page should be vetted by WG chairs ←

17:26:01 <Elisa> Alan: Resolved: Edits to Front Page should be vetted by WG chairs

Alan Ruttenberg: Resolved: Edits to Front Page should be vetted by WG chairs ←

17:26:07 <alanr> Should there be a functional requirements section with links on the front page. proposed by Vipul

Alan Ruttenberg: Should there be a functional requirements section with links on the front page. proposed by Vipul ←

17:26:11 <alanr> for next agenda

Alan Ruttenberg: for next agenda ←

17:26:14 <bijan> Blog post with Dumontier table: http://clarkparsia.com/weblog/2007/06/18/two-interesting-quotes/

Bijan Parsia: Blog post with Dumontier table: http://clarkparsia.com/weblog/2007/06/18/two-interesting-quotes/ ←

17:26:26 <bijan> The original paper: http://webont.org/owled/2007/PapersPDF/submission_36.pdf

Bijan Parsia: The original paper: http://webont.org/owled/2007/PapersPDF/submission_36.pdf ←

17:26:38 <Elisa> Vipul will work on functional requirements based on this for next time

Vipul will work on functional requirements based on this for next time ←

17:26:48 <sandro> Topic: Publication Schedule

3. Publication Schedule

17:27:12 <Elisa> Alan: there was a fair amount of discussion on this topic last week, that we would effectively put the

Alan Ruttenberg: there was a fair amount of discussion on this topic last week, that we would effectively put the ←

17:27:32 <Elisa> current set of documents as a public working draft, sometime before the heartbeat requirement for a public

current set of documents as a public working draft, sometime before the heartbeat requirement for a public ←

17:27:46 <Elisa> working draft, around the 6th or 8th of January

working draft, around the 6th or 8th of January ←

17:28:10 <Elisa> Subsequently, there was discussion in email regarding both content and process issues

Subsequently, there was discussion in email regarding both content and process issues ←

17:28:20 <bijan> My discussion summary, which alan just recapped: http://www.w3.org/mid/AF17523E-0EAC-41BC-8289-76B763AEFFF1@cs.man.ac.uk

Bijan Parsia: My discussion summary, which alan just recapped: http://www.w3.org/mid/AF17523E-0EAC-41BC-8289-76B763AEFFF1@cs.man.ac.uk ←

17:28:35 <Elisa> In light of this, we decided to slow down a bit and reconsider how we should proceed

In light of this, we decided to slow down a bit and reconsider how we should proceed ←

17:28:38 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html

Alan Ruttenberg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html ←

17:28:42 <vipul> Bijan, is it possible for you to post this link under publications or something on the wiki page?

Vipul Kashyap: Bijan, is it possible for you to post this link under publications or something on the wiki page? ←

17:28:51 <vipul> The paper above

Vipul Kashyap: The paper above ←

17:29:01 <bijan> I presume so

Bijan Parsia: I presume so ←

17:29:06 <vipul> Thanks

Vipul Kashyap: Thanks ←

17:29:06 <bijan> But I think it's possible for you too :)

Bijan Parsia: But I think it's possible for you too :) ←

17:29:11 <Elisa> Alan: what we're proposing is that the editing of the 3 docs, whatever comes out of this will be the first draft, but

Alan Ruttenberg: what we're proposing is that the editing of the 3 docs, whatever comes out of this will be the first draft, but ←

17:29:26 <vipul> Well, I just got one change of mine rolled back :)

Vipul Kashyap: Well, I just got one change of mine rolled back :) ←

17:29:28 <Elisa> we will migrate these to the wiki and effectively, everyone who has an interest in contributing would

we will migrate these to the wiki and effectively, everyone who has an interest in contributing would ←

17:29:45 <bijan> That doesn't make me *more* inclined to try :)

Bijan Parsia: That doesn't make me *more* inclined to try :) ←

17:29:46 <Elisa> be able to edit them in the wiki and make them our own.

be able to edit them in the wiki and make them our own. ←

17:29:46 <vipul> BTW, I noticed that we need a publications/resources tab on the wiki

Vipul Kashyap: BTW, I noticed that we need a publications/resources tab on the wiki ←

17:29:55 <vipul> :) to bijan

Vipul Kashyap: :) to bijan ←

17:30:08 <Elisa> The procedure would be to post an issue to the tracker

The procedure would be to post an issue to the tracker ←

17:30:33 <Elisa> Use pages on the wiki to draft changes, issues will be discussed during meetings and changes made

Use pages on the wiki to draft changes, issues will be discussed during meetings and changes made ←

17:30:39 <Elisa>  based on resolutions

based on resolutions ←

17:30:54 <Elisa> shortly before or during f2f we will make a decision about publication as first wd

shortly before or during f2f we will make a decision about publication as first wd ←

17:31:10 <Elisa> then sandro will take wiki contents and format back out as draft doc

then sandro will take wiki contents and format back out as draft doc ←

17:31:27 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to proposal

Unknown JeremyCarroll: +1 to proposal ←

17:31:30 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ ←

17:31:31 <Elisa> depending on group consensus

depending on group consensus ←

17:31:35 <pfps> zakim, unmute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←

17:31:35 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should no longer be muted ←

17:31:36 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

17:31:39 <ew> +1 to proposal

Evan Wallace: +1 to proposal ←

17:31:48 <bmotik_> \nick bmotik

Boris Motik: \nick bmotik ←

17:32:00 <Elisa> Peter: not that it's likely to come to pass, but I'm a bit uneasy about a decision to not publish

Peter Patel-Schneider: not that it's likely to come to pass, but I'm a bit uneasy about a decision to not publish ←

17:32:04 <Elisa> for some period of time

for some period of time ←

17:32:12 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+ ←

17:32:17 <Elisa> Alan:  it is self-imposed,

Alan Ruttenberg: it is self-imposed, ←

17:32:38 <Elisa> Ian: I wouldn't describe this as a publication black-out - we'll decide before a certain date

Ian Horrocks: I wouldn't describe this as a publication black-out - we'll decide before a certain date ←

17:32:41 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

17:32:41 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

17:32:45 <Elisa> Peter: well shortly before

Peter Patel-Schneider: well shortly before ←

17:32:50 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

17:32:52 <dlm> q+

Deborah McGuinness: q+ ←

17:32:56 <sandro> q- pfps

Sandro Hawke: q- pfps ←

17:32:57 <alanr> q- pfps

Alan Ruttenberg: q- pfps ←

17:33:02 <sandro> ack bijan

Sandro Hawke: ack bijan ←

17:33:12 <Elisa> Bijan: one thing that caused a lot of difficulty - the proposal was to publish this week, then we

Bijan Parsia: one thing that caused a lot of difficulty - the proposal was to publish this week, then we ←

17:33:28 <alanr> q+

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←

17:33:46 <Elisa> we might target the F2F instead, and say that's what we're going for, when we feel ready

we might target the F2F instead, and say that's what we're going for, when we feel ready ←

17:33:49 <sandro> Bijan: Maybe we should just set a goal for ourselves of trying to publish before the F2F.

Bijan Parsia: Maybe we should just set a goal for ourselves of trying to publish before the F2F. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:33:57 <sandro> ack dlm

Sandro Hawke: ack dlm ←

17:33:57 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

17:33:58 <alanr> q- bijan

Alan Ruttenberg: q- bijan ←

17:33:58 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

17:34:23 <Elisa> DLM: I was reading some of the email, are we now proposing that we're going to have three docs come out ...

Deborah McGuinness: I was reading some of the email, are we now proposing that we're going to have three docs come out ... ←

17:34:24 <pfps> zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me ←

17:34:24 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should now be muted ←

17:34:41 <Elisa> I want to make sure we don't have something that only theoreticians can read

...I want to make sure we don't have something that only theoreticians can read ←

17:34:55 <sandro> s/I want/...I want/

17:34:58 <Elisa> Is the structural specification something we expect to be readable by a broad audience

Is the structural specification something we expect to be readable by a broad audience ←

17:35:03 <Rinke> zakim, mute me

Rinke Hoekstra: zakim, mute me ←

17:35:03 <Zakim> Rinke should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Rinke should now be muted ←

17:35:10 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+ ←

17:35:14 <bmotik> Many nontheoreticians were able to use and implement OWL 1.1

Boris Motik: Many nontheoreticians were able to use and implement OWL 1.1 ←

17:35:33 <Elisa> Alan: we were trying to triage to see which documents were available for publication first

Alan Ruttenberg: we were trying to triage to see which documents were available for publication first ←

17:35:43 <bijan> +1 to bmotik

Bijan Parsia: +1 to bmotik ←

17:36:04 <Elisa> The reasoning wasn't to avoid publication of the more readable docs

The reasoning wasn't to avoid publication of the more readable docs ←

17:36:31 <Elisa> We should take the same approach to the other docs, post issues, and publish them when they are ready

We should take the same approach to the other docs, post issues, and publish them when they are ready ←

17:36:44 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

17:37:04 <Elisa> DLM: Now matter how hard we work, we're not going to be able to make the semantics document, for example, readable for a large audience

Deborah McGuinness: Now matter how hard we work, we're not going to be able to make the semantics document, for example, readable for a large audience ←

17:37:15 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

17:37:22 <Elisa> we need another document to come out at the same time that is readable by the broader audience

we need another document to come out at the same time that is readable by the broader audience ←

17:37:43 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to sense of urgency for more readable docs

Unknown JeremyCarroll: +1 to sense of urgency for more readable docs ←

17:37:49 <Elisa> Alan: what will the users go to as the ultimate set of docs we produce, and what are the steps in the process

Alan Ruttenberg: what will the users go to as the ultimate set of docs we produce, and what are the steps in the process ←

17:38:09 <Elisa> I think what you're saying is that you want some kind of overview document to be in the first set we publish

I think what you're saying is that you want some kind of overview document to be in the first set we publish ←

17:38:11 <bijan> There's a queue!

Bijan Parsia: There's a queue! ←

17:38:13 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

17:38:19 <Elisa> DLM: yes or something that can take its place

Deborah McGuinness: yes or something that can take its place ←

17:38:21 <vipul> q+

Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←

17:38:37 <IanH> q+

Ian Horrocks: q+ ←

17:38:43 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

17:38:55 <Elisa> Alan: it might be confusing to have some version of user docs if there is flux in the set of features discussed

Alan Ruttenberg: it might be confusing to have some version of user docs if there is flux in the set of features discussed ←

17:39:14 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to mention requirements

Unknown JeremyCarroll: q+ to mention requirements ←

17:39:15 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

17:39:16 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

17:39:22 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

17:39:24 <Elisa> DLM: But if there isn't something available that is readable, people won't be able to follow what's going on

Deborah McGuinness: But if there isn't something available that is readable, people won't be able to follow what's going on ←

17:39:28 <alanr> ack alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: ack alanr ←

17:39:40 <sandro> ack bijan

Sandro Hawke: ack bijan ←

17:40:03 <Elisa> Bijan: I'm strongly against this - reasons include that we don't have such a document available for OWL 1.1 yet, although quite a few people

Bijan Parsia: I'm strongly against this - reasons include that we don't have such a document available for OWL 1.1 yet, although quite a few people ←

17:40:11 <Elisa> have been able to comment on what we do have

have been able to comment on what we do have ←

17:40:29 <Elisa> There is a limit even with the OWL Guide on who can read it and comment effectively

There is a limit even with the OWL Guide on who can read it and comment effectively ←

17:41:05 <Elisa> Most working groups he has participated in recently publish tech docs first, long before publishing a guide, until the tech docs are farther along

Most working groups he has participated in recently publish tech docs first, long before publishing a guide, until the tech docs are farther along ←

17:41:38 <Elisa> He doesn't think that other WGs would have a problem with publishing the tech docs well in advance of the guide

He doesn't think that other WGs would have a problem with publishing the tech docs well in advance of the guide ←

17:41:50 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

17:41:50 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

17:41:53 <Elisa> We can deal with some questions in email along the way

We can deal with some questions in email along the way ←

17:42:06 <Elisa> Vipul: I agree with Deborah and disagree with Bijan

Vipul Kashyap: I agree with Deborah and disagree with Bijan ←

17:42:16 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

17:42:16 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

17:42:30 <Elisa> I believe that this depends on who we believe our audience is

I believe that this depends on who we believe our audience is ←

17:43:04 <Elisa> Bijan: I work with end users all the time on various lists, and my primary customer is the end user (people building and using ontologies)

Bijan Parsia: I work with end users all the time on various lists, and my primary customer is the end user (people building and using ontologies) ←

17:43:24 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

17:43:24 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

17:43:26 <Elisa> I want to provide sufficient infrastructure, including tools and documentation, that serves their needs

I want to provide sufficient infrastructure, including tools and documentation, that serves their needs ←

17:43:38 <bijan> What?

Bijan Parsia: What? ←

17:43:42 <bijan> I didn't say that

Bijan Parsia: I didn't say that ←

17:43:49 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

17:43:49 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

17:43:50 <Elisa> Vipul: this reinforces my claims, because he provides these things to implementors and technical teams

Vipul Kashyap: this reinforces my claims, because he provides these things to implementors and technical teams ←

17:43:55 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

17:43:55 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

17:44:00 <Elisa> Alan: he has clarified that this isn't his primary audience

Alan Ruttenberg: he has clarified that this isn't his primary audience ←

17:44:18 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

17:44:18 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

17:44:28 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

17:44:28 <bijan> can I clarify?

Bijan Parsia: can I clarify? ←

17:44:31 <Elisa> Vipul: if you think your end user is someone using OWL, then that's not the same as an end user who is a business user presenting

Vipul Kashyap: if you think your end user is someone using OWL, then that's not the same as an end user who is a business user presenting ←

17:44:32 <alanr> wait pleae

Alan Ruttenberg: wait pleae ←

17:44:42 <Elisa> this technology to a CIO or business users

this technology to a CIO or business users ←

17:44:46 <alanr> bijan use q ?

Alan Ruttenberg: bijan use q ? ←

17:45:14 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+ ←

17:45:17 <sandro> Rinke, the IRC logging convention in use here has "/me" actions, like you just did, NOT included in the log.   So you may want to re-enter that, if you want it in the record.

Sandro Hawke: Rinke, the IRC logging convention in use here has "/me" actions, like you just did, NOT included in the log. So you may want to re-enter that, if you want it in the record. ←

17:45:26 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

17:45:28 <Elisa> I'm in favor of Deborah's position - the first thing in the SW dev lifecycle is to go out and develop use cases (end user use cases rather than technical use cases)

I'm in favor of Deborah's position - the first thing in the SW dev lifecycle is to go out and develop use cases (end user use cases rather than technical use cases) ←

17:45:32 <alanr> ack vipul

Alan Ruttenberg: ack vipul ←

17:45:35 <bmotik> We had two years of collecting use cases at OWL-ED, as documented in 50+ papers

Boris Motik: We had two years of collecting use cases at OWL-ED, as documented in 50+ papers ←

17:45:44 <IanH> See survey at http://dme.uma.pt/jcardoso/sw-survey-2007.pdf -- seems that 80% edit OWL using Protege or SWOOP. Guide argument seems predicated on belief that "end users" will look directly at OWL.

Ian Horrocks: See survey at http://dme.uma.pt/jcardoso/sw-survey-2007.pdf -- seems that 80% edit OWL using Protege or SWOOP. Guide argument seems predicated on belief that "end users" will look directly at OWL. ←

17:45:48 <Elisa> we should bring this issue of use cases forward in the development cycle

we should bring this issue of use cases forward in the development cycle ←

17:45:50 <Rinke> I think the audience differs per document

Rinke Hoekstra: I think the audience differs per document ←

17:45:52 <ew> Question for Vipul and Deb: what kind of feedback are you looking for from end users?

Evan Wallace: Question for Vipul and Deb: what kind of feedback are you looking for from end users? ←

17:45:53 <bijan> Including a panel of industry people

Bijan Parsia: Including a panel of industry people ←

17:46:03 <bijan> And a specific HCLS panel

Bijan Parsia: And a specific HCLS panel ←

17:46:12 <bijan> Plus, all this is not remotely normal behavior for a working gorup

Bijan Parsia: Plus, all this is not remotely normal behavior for a working gorup ←

17:46:18 <Elisa> the table Michelle developed is fantastic - we need to do the same thing in [other domains] - we need to give

the table Michelle developed is fantastic - we need to do the same thing in [other domains] - we need to give ←

17:46:28 <bijan> Plus if we look at the documents deb cites as models, they are not for CIOs

Bijan Parsia: Plus if we look at the documents deb cites as models, they are not for CIOs ←

17:46:31 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q? ←

17:46:34 <sandro> ack IanH

Sandro Hawke: ack IanH ←

17:46:39 <Elisa> primacy to the end user

primacy to the end user ←

17:46:46 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

17:47:06 <vipul> q+

Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←

17:47:31 <Elisa> Ian: it seems to me that alot of this argument in favor of guides, etc. is predicated on the belief that end users will look at OWL; in a way they care less about OWL and more about the editors they use that are based on the standards

Ian Horrocks: it seems to me that alot of this argument in favor of guides, etc. is predicated on the belief that end users will look at OWL; in a way they care less about OWL and more about the editors they use that are based on the standards ←

17:47:41 <alanr> q+

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←

17:47:50 <Elisa> I believe that the goal is to bring all of these documents into the domain so that we can work on them as soon as possible

I believe that the goal is to bring all of these documents into the domain so that we can work on them as soon as possible ←

17:48:09 <Elisa> there is an overview document that isn't great but provides some idea of the features which we can point people to

there is an overview document that isn't great but provides some idea of the features which we can point people to ←

17:48:38 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

17:48:45 <Elisa> this whole discussion has drifted quite away from the agenda - if people believe that we should start working on a guide or other doc we should propose an agenda item for that for next week

this whole discussion has drifted quite away from the agenda - if people believe that we should start working on a guide or other doc we should propose an agenda item for that for next week ←

17:48:52 <sandro> ack JeremyCarroll

Sandro Hawke: ack JeremyCarroll ←

17:48:54 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention requirements

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention requirements ←

17:50:03 <Elisa> Jeremy: if the best way to move forward is to propose to create these end user facing documents ...

Scribe problem: the name 'Jeremy' does not match any of the 40 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Jeremy: if the best way to move forward is to propose to create these end user facing documents ... ←

17:50:09 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

17:50:09 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan was not muted, bijan ←

17:50:11 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

17:50:15 <sandro> ack bijan

Sandro Hawke: ack bijan ←

17:50:18 <Elisa> I believe that a requirements document would be useful, but agree with Ian ...

I believe that a requirements document would be useful, but agree with Ian ... ←

17:50:53 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

17:50:53 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

17:51:13 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

17:51:13 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

17:51:24 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

17:51:24 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

17:51:29 <pfps> \me can we please move on?

Peter Patel-Schneider: \me can we please move on? ←

17:51:35 <Elisa> Vipul: I was attempting to differentiate my view of an end user ...

Vipul Kashyap: I was attempting to differentiate my view of an end user ... ←

17:51:39 <ew> call the question

Evan Wallace: call the question ←

17:51:54 <Elisa> Alan: there is broad agreement that we should have good user facing docs

Alan Ruttenberg: there is broad agreement that we should have good user facing docs ←

17:52:08 <IanH> +1 to Peter's (and my) request!

Ian Horrocks: +1 to Peter's (and my) request! ←

17:52:16 <CarstenLutz> +1 peter!

Unknown CarstenLutz: +1 peter! ←

17:52:21 <Elisa> the current procedure doesn't preclude that, but talks about focus on the tech docs and working on them via the wiki

the current procedure doesn't preclude that, but talks about focus on the tech docs and working on them via the wiki ←

17:52:31 <uli> +1 to Peter and Ian and to move on

Uli Sattler: +1 to Peter and Ian and to move on ←

17:52:33 <bmotik> +1 to peter

Boris Motik: +1 to peter ←

17:52:41 <bernardo> +1 to peter

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 to peter ←

17:53:03 <JeffP> q?

Jeff Pan: q? ←

17:53:07 <Elisa> Do you believe that we have adequate support for these user docs (to Deb and Vipul)

Do you believe that we have adequate support for these user docs (to Deb and Vipul) ←

17:53:21 <bijan> It's not clear to me that Deb and Vipul mean the same documents

Bijan Parsia: It's not clear to me that Deb and Vipul mean the same documents ←

17:53:30 <Elisa> Vipul: the issue may be sequencing - we should add this to a future agenda

Vipul Kashyap: the issue may be sequencing - we should add this to a future agenda ←

17:53:33 <bijan> OWL overview, guide, and references are fairly narrowly targetd

Bijan Parsia: OWL overview, guide, and references are fairly narrowly targetd ←

17:54:08 <Elisa> Alan: do you agree that we can migrate the three proposed tech docs to the wiki as soon as possible, that people can raise issues, etc., and that we

Alan Ruttenberg: do you agree that we can migrate the three proposed tech docs to the wiki as soon as possible, that people can raise issues, etc., and that we ←

17:54:20 <Elisa> can move forward to work on these between now and the F2F...

can move forward to work on these between now and the F2F... ←

17:54:41 <IanH> Charter already calls for "Descriptive specification" and "User guide", so clearly we as a group are committed to working on these.

Ian Horrocks: Charter already calls for "Descriptive specification" and "User guide", so clearly we as a group are committed to working on these. ←

17:54:43 <Elisa> Vipul: maybe we should consider trying to publish a use cases and requirements document at the same time, which we can

Vipul Kashyap: maybe we should consider trying to publish a use cases and requirements document at the same time, which we can ←

17:54:49 <Elisa> take up in the next agenda

take up in the next agenda ←

17:54:59 <pfps> i'm against delaying documents that are ready to wait for documents that are not

Peter Patel-Schneider: i'm against delaying documents that are ready to wait for documents that are not ←

17:55:11 <IanH> Charter also calls for "Overview"

Ian Horrocks: Charter also calls for "Overview" ←

17:55:16 <Elisa> DLM: I was pushing much more for the overview than the guide - updating the guide is a massive amount of work

Deborah McGuinness: I was pushing much more for the overview than the guide - updating the guide is a massive amount of work ←

17:55:23 <Rinke> +1 to peter

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 to peter ←

17:55:36 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

17:55:37 <JeremyCarroll> A FPWD of an overview could just be the new bits for O|WL 1.1 does not to have OWL 1.0 part as well

Unknown JeremyCarroll: A FPWD of an overview could just be the new bits for O|WL 1.1 does not to have OWL 1.0 part as well ←

17:55:48 <Elisa> my worry is that if the focus is just on the three docs that work on an overview would be relegated to the end of telecons and ultimately wont get addressed

my worry is that if the focus is just on the three docs that work on an overview would be relegated to the end of telecons and ultimately wont get addressed ←

17:55:54 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

17:55:55 <bijan> I would like some evidence of this broad user base.

Bijan Parsia: I would like some evidence of this broad user base. ←

17:56:01 <alanr> ack vipul

Alan Ruttenberg: ack vipul ←

17:56:03 <IanH> ?q

Ian Horrocks: ?q ←

17:56:07 <alanr> ack alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: ack alanr ←

17:56:17 <bijan> With these specific complaints

Bijan Parsia: With these specific complaints ←

17:56:17 <Elisa> I'm trying to support a broad user base of scientists and business people who are trying to work with this

I'm trying to support a broad user base of scientists and business people who are trying to work with this ←

17:56:29 <Elisa> something like an overview is really critical for them

something like an overview is really critical for them ←

17:56:41 <bmotik> But nobody doubts that both an overview and a user's guie should be produced by the WG

Boris Motik: But nobody doubts that both an overview and a user's guie should be produced by the WG ←

17:57:24 <uli> Boris, the question is the order of publication: what goes first/what waits?

Uli Sattler: Boris, the question is the order of publication: what goes first/what waits? ←

17:57:28 <JeremyCarroll> (I would prefer not to work on user facing docs ... not really my skill set ... but I will cheer someone else on!!)

Unknown JeremyCarroll: (I would prefer not to work on user facing docs ... not really my skill set ... but I will cheer someone else on!!) ←

17:57:43 <Elisa> Alan: to address the issue of these getting short shrift on the agenda - Ian and Alan are responsible for the agenda, and will make sure it gets appropriate time

Alan Ruttenberg: to address the issue of these getting short shrift on the agenda - Ian and Alan are responsible for the agenda, and will make sure it gets appropriate time ←

17:57:57 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

17:58:17 <Elisa> I will take this seriously to make sure that all of the concerns of people in the group are considered

I will take this seriously to make sure that all of the concerns of people in the group are considered ←

17:58:26 <Rinke> I'm all for working in parallel

Rinke Hoekstra: I'm all for working in parallel ←

17:58:30 <Elisa> are there any objections currently to adopting this proposal to the group

are there any objections currently to adopting this proposal to the group ←

17:58:39 <IanH> PROPOSED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html

PROPOSED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html ←

17:58:48 <JeremyCarroll> second

Unknown JeremyCarroll: second ←

17:59:10 <Rinke> +1 to proposal

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 to proposal ←

17:59:19 <Elisa> Alan: objections?

Alan Ruttenberg: objections? ←

17:59:21 <JeffP> +1 to proposal

Jeff Pan: +1 to proposal ←

17:59:22 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1 ←

17:59:24 <vit> +1

Vit Novacek: +1 ←

17:59:26 <TommieMeyer> +1

Tommie Meyer: +1 ←

17:59:26 <ew> +1

Evan Wallace: +1 ←

17:59:27 <bmotik> +1 to proposal

Boris Motik: +1 to proposal ←

17:59:27 <GiorgosStoilos> +1

Giorgos Stoilos: +1 ←

17:59:28 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ←

17:59:30 <bernardo> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1 ←

17:59:38 <bijan> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1 ←

17:59:46 <Ratnesh> +1 to proposal

Ratnesh Sahay: +1 to proposal ←

17:59:53 <MikeSmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1 ←

17:59:55 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make minutes ←

17:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-minutes.html sandro

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-minutes.html sandro ←

18:00:01 <Elisa> Alan: this document does not preclude an additional resolution that we would publish another document

Alan Ruttenberg: this document does not preclude an additional resolution that we would publish another document ←

18:00:04 <achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1 ←

18:00:05 <Elisa> on a similar schedule

on a similar schedule ←

18:00:10 <vipul> +1 conditionally to publishing the use cases document on the same schedule

Vipul Kashyap: +1 conditionally to publishing the use cases document on the same schedule ←

18:00:11 <FabienG> +1

Fabien Gandon: +1 ←

18:00:13 <bijan> I don't think jim asbtains

Bijan Parsia: I don't think jim asbtains ←

18:00:22 <Elisa> not hearing any objections, and with one abstention from Jim

not hearing any objections, and with one abstention from Jim ←

18:00:22 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

18:00:22 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

18:00:37 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

18:00:37 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

18:00:47 <Elisa> He indicated support for the chairs proposal

He indicated support for the chairs proposal ←

18:00:49 <JeremyCarroll> If Jim wants to abstain he can abstrain by e-mail

Unknown JeremyCarroll: If Jim wants to abstain he can abstrain by e-mail ←

18:01:13 <IanH> RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html

RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html ←

18:01:27 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ ←

18:01:28 <Zakim> -Vipul_Kashyap

Zakim IRC Bot: -Vipul_Kashyap ←

18:01:33 <pfps> zakim, unmute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←

18:01:33 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should no longer be muted ←

18:01:59 <pfps> these meetings are scheduled for 90 minutes, not 60

Peter Patel-Schneider: these meetings are scheduled for 90 minutes, not 60 ←

18:02:17 <Elisa> Ian: we should take a quick stab at the next agenda item ... what form these docs are going to take in the wiki or otherwise

Ian Horrocks: we should take a quick stab at the next agenda item ... what form these docs are going to take in the wiki or otherwise ←

18:02:21 <bijan> I propose we talk about task forces

Bijan Parsia: I propose we talk about task forces ←

18:02:35 <bijan> 1+

Bijan Parsia: 1+ ←

18:02:36 <Elisa> Alan: there seems to be productive discussion on this in the mailing list at this point

Alan Ruttenberg: there seems to be productive discussion on this in the mailing list at this point ←

18:02:37 <bijan> er

Bijan Parsia: er ←

18:02:38 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+ ←

18:02:47 <JeremyCarroll> q+

Unknown JeremyCarroll: q+ ←

18:03:01 <IanH> ?q

Ian Horrocks: ?q ←

18:03:08 <Elisa> Ian: I would like to get this moved forward as quickly as possible so that people can start working on the documents

Ian Horrocks: I would like to get this moved forward as quickly as possible so that people can start working on the documents ←

18:03:10 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

18:03:22 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

18:03:24 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

18:03:27 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps ←

18:03:56 <Elisa> Peter: I would prefer that we keep the meetings to 90 minutes

Peter Patel-Schneider: I would prefer that we keep the meetings to 90 minutes ←

18:04:07 <bijan> one solution is shorter agendae

Bijan Parsia: one solution is shorter agendae ←

18:04:17 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

18:04:29 <Elisa> Alan: there are a number of people that can only attend for 60 minutes, and this is an issue for the entire working group, so we should address it at the next meeting

Alan Ruttenberg: there are a number of people that can only attend for 60 minutes, and this is an issue for the entire working group, so we should address it at the next meeting ←

18:04:31 <IanH> ack bijan

Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←

18:04:32 <sandro> Alan: Let's talk about meeting length next time.

Alan Ruttenberg: Let's talk about meeting length next time. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:04:37 <pfps> zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me ←

18:04:37 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should now be muted ←

18:05:09 <Elisa> Bijan: I'd like to talk about the task forces - and have some guidance about how we are going to proceed with reviews

Bijan Parsia: I'd like to talk about the task forces - and have some guidance about how we are going to proceed with reviews ←

18:05:34 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

18:05:34 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

18:05:44 <IanH> ack JeremyCarroll

Ian Horrocks: ack JeremyCarroll ←

18:05:48 <sandro> q- bijan

Sandro Hawke: q- bijan ←

18:05:51 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q? ←

18:06:16 <Elisa> Alan: So in between the wiki docs and task forces is the issues list, tracker, and so forth

Alan Ruttenberg: So in between the wiki docs and task forces is the issues list, tracker, and so forth ←

18:06:20 <bijan> +1 to talking about the issues list

Bijan Parsia: +1 to talking about the issues list ←

18:06:29 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to talking about issues

Unknown JeremyCarroll: +1 to talking about issues ←

18:06:30 <Elisa> should we address those first or skip to the task forces

should we address those first or skip to the task forces ←

18:06:31 <pfps> zakim, umute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, umute me ←

18:06:31 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute me', pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'umute me', pfps ←

18:06:41 <JeremyCarroll> (i will leave in ten mins)

Unknown JeremyCarroll: (i will leave in ten mins) ←

18:06:48 <sandro> Zakim, unmute pfps

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, unmute pfps ←

18:06:48 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should no longer be muted ←

18:07:22 <Elisa> Peter: I'd like to be able to have something happen before the next telecon - like moving docs to the wiki, or getting the issues list set up, or something

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'd like to be able to have something happen before the next telecon - like moving docs to the wiki, or getting the issues list set up, or something ←

18:07:33 <IanH> +1 to Peter -- let's get on with it!

Ian Horrocks: +1 to Peter -- let's get on with it! ←

18:07:50 <Elisa> Alan: the last discussion was on how we might mark up the docs

Alan Ruttenberg: the last discussion was on how we might mark up the docs ←

18:07:57 <bijan> +1 to doing stuff

Bijan Parsia: +1 to doing stuff ←

18:08:18 <Elisa> Peter: we have documents in html, let's just move them over to the wiki and figure out how to deal with the math tags later

Peter Patel-Schneider: we have documents in html, let's just move them over to the wiki and figure out how to deal with the math tags later ←

18:08:44 <Elisa> Alan: when you say html, does that mean wiki vs. html?

Alan Ruttenberg: when you say html, does that mean wiki vs. html? ←

18:08:48 <uli> +1 to Peter

Uli Sattler: +1 to Peter ←

18:08:50 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

18:09:07 <Elisa> Sandro: right now the docs are pure html, for math will they use images or what

Sandro Hawke: right now the docs are pure html, for math will they use images or what ←

18:09:26 <bmotik> the images are used only for the diagrams in the strucutral specification

Boris Motik: the images are used only for the diagrams in the strucutral specification ←

18:09:34 <bmotik> All other documents use plain HMTL

Boris Motik: All other documents use plain HMTL ←

18:09:38 <bijan> +1 to the migration simply and soonly

Bijan Parsia: +1 to the migration simply and soonly ←

18:09:39 <Elisa> Ian: the structural spec uses images, so it would be possible to move the other two over that don't use images, and deal with the images later

Ian Horrocks: the structural spec uses images, so it would be possible to move the other two over that don't use images, and deal with the images later ←

18:09:56 <bijan> How about moving to wiki markup over time?

Bijan Parsia: How about moving to wiki markup over time? ←

18:10:09 <bijan> Some participation and editing is better than none

Bijan Parsia: Some participation and editing is better than none ←

18:10:10 <Elisa> Alan: I think use of wiki mark-up is alot cleaner, I'm concerned with broad participation in editing

Alan Ruttenberg: I think use of wiki mark-up is alot cleaner, I'm concerned with broad participation in editing ←

18:10:21 <sandro> zakim, list attendees

Sandro Hawke: zakim, list attendees ←

18:10:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.312.052.aaaa, Sandro, Rinke, +49.351.4.aabb, Carsten, MikeSmith, +012736aacc, JeremyCarroll, bijan, Elisa_Kendall, vit, bmotik, pfps,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been +1.312.052.aaaa, Sandro, Rinke, +49.351.4.aabb, Carsten, MikeSmith, +012736aacc, JeremyCarroll, bijan, Elisa_Kendall, vit, bmotik, pfps, ←

18:10:25 <bijan> And we can move over time

Bijan Parsia: And we can move over time ←

18:10:25 <Zakim> ... Vipul_Kashyap, Alan, TommieMeyer, +1.603.897.aadd, uli, Achille, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, Zhe_Wu, JeffP, FabienG, Deborah, Bernardo, Ratnesh, IanH

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Vipul_Kashyap, Alan, TommieMeyer, +1.603.897.aadd, uli, Achille, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, Zhe_Wu, JeffP, FabienG, Deborah, Bernardo, Ratnesh, IanH ←

18:10:33 <bijan> if it seems happy

Bijan Parsia: if it seems happy ←

18:10:37 <bijan> to do so

Bijan Parsia: to do so ←

18:10:38 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

18:10:39 <Elisa> there is a converter that seems to do reasonably well, but we should be sure that we can use html if that's not the case

there is a converter that seems to do reasonably well, but we should be sure that we can use html if that's not the case ←

18:11:05 <Elisa> Sandro: we don't need full html to do the equations ...

Sandro Hawke: we don't need full html to do the equations ... ←

18:11:06 <bijan> It's not

Bijan Parsia: It's not ←

18:11:09 <bijan> No scripts

Bijan Parsia: No scripts ←

18:11:21 <Elisa> Peter: I would be very surprised if there were scripts

Peter Patel-Schneider: I would be very surprised if there were scripts ←

18:11:22 <bmotik> We are currently using a stylesheet for the fonts in the HTML, and we are using <sub> and <sup>.

Boris Motik: We are currently using a stylesheet for the fonts in the HTML, and we are using <sub> and <sup>. ←

18:11:30 <bmotik> No scripts whatsoever

Boris Motik: No scripts whatsoever ←

18:11:46 <Elisa> Sandro: we would convert to wiki markup but not wiki math - math equations stay in html

Sandro Hawke: we would convert to wiki markup but not wiki math - math equations stay in html ←

18:11:56 <bernardo> as boris sat=ys, we are just using very simple stuff for the math

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: as boris sat=ys, we are just using very simple stuff for the math ←

18:12:05 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to suggest doc-by-doc resolution

Unknown JeremyCarroll: q+ to suggest doc-by-doc resolution ←

18:12:13 <bijan> +1 to math in current html and every else in wiki syntax

Bijan Parsia: +1 to math in current html and every else in wiki syntax ←

18:12:14 <Elisa> Alan: the complicated stuff is in html, but the uncomplicated stuff goes to wiki markup

Alan Ruttenberg: the complicated stuff is in html, but the uncomplicated stuff goes to wiki markup ←

18:12:17 <uli> ace!

Uli Sattler: ace! ←

18:12:22 <Elisa> Sandro and I will do this before next week

Sandro and I will do this before next week ←

18:12:46 <bijan> Isn't this jsut an action?

Bijan Parsia: Isn't this jsut an action? ←

18:12:55 <bmotik> We were fairly strict with usage of stylesheets, so this information might be used for migration into Wiki

Boris Motik: We were fairly strict with usage of stylesheets, so this information might be used for migration into Wiki ←

18:12:58 <bijan> Do we need a decision per se? Maybe so.

Bijan Parsia: Do we need a decision per se? Maybe so. ←

18:13:04 <alanr> PROPOSED: Documents to be edited using wiki markup facilities, but leave complicated markup in html. Revisit if there are problems. Target: Next TC

PROPOSED: Documents to be edited using wiki markup facilities, but leave complicated markup in html. Revisit if there are problems. Target: Next TC ←

18:13:15 <JeremyCarroll> q-

Unknown JeremyCarroll: q- ←

18:13:16 <bijan> OK

Bijan Parsia: OK ←

18:13:19 <bmotik> "Strict" in the sense that we tried to use them everywhere in the same way

Boris Motik: "Strict" in the sense that we tried to use them everywhere in the same way ←

18:13:34 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me

Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me ←

18:13:34 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted ←

18:13:54 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: -JeremyCarroll ←

18:14:06 <Elisa> Boris: the important bits of markup in the documents are always in style sheets, so it may be possible to automate the process of migration

Boris Motik: the important bits of markup in the documents are always in style sheets, so it may be possible to automate the process of migration ←

18:14:26 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me

Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←

18:14:26 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←

18:14:28 <Elisa> Alan: that's our thought as well; the OWL WG front page was done in a similar way

Alan Ruttenberg: that's our thought as well; the OWL WG front page was done in a similar way ←

18:14:33 <Elisa> Any objections?

Any objections? ←

18:14:36 <bijan> Any abstensions?

Bijan Parsia: Any abstensions? ←

18:14:46 <alanr> RESOLVED: Documents to be edited using wiki markup facilities, but leave complicated markup in html. Revisit if there are problems. Target: Next TC

RESOLVED: Documents to be edited using wiki markup facilities, but leave complicated markup in html. Revisit if there are problems. Target: Next TC ←

18:15:08 <achille> I am leaving in one mintute

Achille Fokoue: I am leaving in one mintute ←

18:15:21 <IanH> unmute me

Ian Horrocks: unmute me ←

18:15:22 <Elisa> ACTION: Alan and Sandro will migrate documents to the wiki by the next telecon

ACTION: Alan and Sandro will migrate documents to the wiki by the next telecon ←

18:15:22 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-5 - And Sandro will migrate documents to the wiki by the next telecon [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-10-31].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-5 - And Sandro will migrate documents to the wiki by the next telecon [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-10-31]. ←

18:15:35 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

18:15:35 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

18:15:46 <pfps> zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me ←

18:15:46 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should now be muted ←

18:15:47 <Elisa> agendum Task Forces

agendum Task Forces ←

18:16:22 <Elisa> Alan: If we can get one or two of the activities identified for task forces we would be in good shape

Alan Ruttenberg: If we can get one or two of the activities identified for task forces we would be in good shape ←

18:16:34 <IanH> q+

Ian Horrocks: q+ ←

18:16:57 <Elisa> if people can start working on issues related to backwards compatibility audits, for example, they can submit issues, comments

if people can start working on issues related to backwards compatibility audits, for example, they can submit issues, comments ←

18:17:18 <Elisa> Bijan: we may want to create wiki pages for this

Bijan Parsia: we may want to create wiki pages for this ←

18:17:25 <IanH> +1 to poking Jim

Ian Horrocks: +1 to poking Jim ←

18:17:52 <Elisa> Alan: There are two people that should be involved in this - I'll poke at Jim and Jeremy

Alan Ruttenberg: There are two people that should be involved in this - I'll poke at Jim and Jeremy ←

18:17:59 <Elisa> we should define what this means

we should define what this means ←

18:18:18 <Elisa> As soon as we can start working on test cases against the specs the better as well

As soon as we can start working on test cases against the specs the better as well ←

18:18:38 <Elisa> If we can start to create test cases, then a harness that can be run right out of the wiki

If we can start to create test cases, then a harness that can be run right out of the wiki ←

18:18:47 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

18:18:56 <Elisa> if we can identify people who want to start working on this, that would be good

if we can identify people who want to start working on this, that would be good ←

18:19:11 <Elisa> Bijan: I can start to send email out to people who might want to work on this

Bijan Parsia: I can start to send email out to people who might want to work on this ←

18:19:14 <Zakim> -Achille

Zakim IRC Bot: -Achille ←

18:19:29 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

18:19:33 <Elisa> Alan: We should create a wiki page, and start adding these issues to the wiki

Alan Ruttenberg: We should create a wiki page, and start adding these issues to the wiki ←

18:19:47 <Elisa> Sandro: the tracker doesn't support this yet

Sandro Hawke: the tracker doesn't support this yet ←

18:19:56 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed

Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed ←

18:20:01 <Elisa> On the tracker page -

On the tracker page - ←

18:20:11 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

18:20:28 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

18:20:28 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

18:20:36 <Elisa> Alan: the last thing i noticed is that the tracker didn't let me enter an issue due to permissions

Alan Ruttenberg: the last thing i noticed is that the tracker didn't let me enter an issue due to permissions ←

18:20:37 <JeffP> q?

Jeff Pan: q? ←

18:20:54 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

18:20:56 <sandro> ACTION: Sandro to edit http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed to document a REPORTED and ACCEPTED convention on issues

ACTION: Sandro to edit http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed to document a REPORTED and ACCEPTED convention on issues ←

18:20:56 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-6 - Edit http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed to document a REPORTED and ACCEPTED convention on issues [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-10-31].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-6 - Edit http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed to document a REPORTED and ACCEPTED convention on issues [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-10-31]. ←

18:21:09 <bijan> sandro, the base of <http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/> has group specific text...maybe we can pop some help in?

Bijan Parsia: sandro, the base of <http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/> has group specific text...maybe we can pop some help in? ←

18:21:15 <Elisa> Alan: this is just an introduction to get the topic started

Alan Ruttenberg: this is just an introduction to get the topic started ←

18:21:19 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←

18:21:37 <Elisa> Ian: we skipped over this issue list in order to get to the task forces, but getting the issues and tracker sorted out

Ian Horrocks: we skipped over this issue list in order to get to the task forces, but getting the issues and tracker sorted out ←

18:21:45 <Elisa> is important to supporting the task forces

is important to supporting the task forces ←

18:21:46 <IanH> ack ianh

Ian Horrocks: ack ianh ←

18:22:08 <Elisa> now we're in a position where we may end up with two parallel issues lists

now we're in a position where we may end up with two parallel issues lists ←

18:22:29 <Elisa> Alan: my understanding was that we were going to migrate the OWL 1.1 issues to the tracker once it was working

Alan Ruttenberg: my understanding was that we were going to migrate the OWL 1.1 issues to the tracker once it was working ←

18:22:39 <Elisa> Ian: so what is the issue with doing that

Ian Horrocks: so what is the issue with doing that ←

18:22:44 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

18:22:44 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

18:22:56 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+ ←

18:23:05 <Elisa> Alan: I think it means someone has to manually do this, so perhaps we should manually move them over once the tracker is up and running

Alan Ruttenberg: I think it means someone has to manually do this, so perhaps we should manually move them over once the tracker is up and running ←

18:23:15 <Elisa> Ian: ok, we can do this offline, but we need to get to it.

Ian Horrocks: ok, we can do this offline, but we need to get to it. ←

18:23:18 <Elisa> Alan: agreed

Alan Ruttenberg: agreed ←

18:23:47 <Rinke> Is there some way to 'close' the google code page?

Rinke Hoekstra: Is there some way to 'close' the google code page? ←

18:23:50 <Elisa> We wanted to have a publicly open place (the google site) for people to enter issues, but that the working group should use the tracker

We wanted to have a publicly open place (the google site) for people to enter issues, but that the working group should use the tracker ←

18:24:07 <Rinke> (oops)

Rinke Hoekstra: (oops) ←

18:24:26 <Elisa> Ian: by moving issues to the tracker now, what happens to new issues added to the google site, and what is the status of those that are moved

Ian Horrocks: by moving issues to the tracker now, what happens to new issues added to the google site, and what is the status of those that are moved ←

18:24:35 <pfps> I note that the tracker requires you to log in, but then doesn't know who you are.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I note that the tracker requires you to log in, but then doesn't know who you are. ←

18:24:50 <Elisa> Alan: they are all reported, and Alan and Ian have to decide how to address those

Alan Ruttenberg: they are all reported, and Alan and Ian have to decide how to address those ←

18:25:10 <sandro> Indeed, pfps.   :-(

Sandro Hawke: Indeed, pfps. :-( ←

18:25:15 <Elisa> It should be a lower priority to deal with new publicly added issues, but we should decide what to do with them going forward

It should be a lower priority to deal with new publicly added issues, but we should decide what to do with them going forward ←

18:25:34 <bijan> I can do that, probably

Bijan Parsia: I can do that, probably ←

18:25:36 <Elisa> Ian: it would be a big commitment to continue monitoring the other list and moving issues on an ongoing basis

Ian Horrocks: it would be a big commitment to continue monitoring the other list and moving issues on an ongoing basis ←

18:25:40 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

18:25:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke (muted), IanH, MikeSmith, bijan, vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, uli (muted),

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke (muted), IanH, MikeSmith, bijan, vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, uli (muted), ←

18:25:44 <Zakim> ... Bernardo, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG, Ratnesh

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Bernardo, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG, Ratnesh ←

18:25:50 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

18:25:50 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan was not muted, bijan ←

18:26:09 <Elisa> Alan: maybe what we can do is have people monitor this and move them accordingly

Alan Ruttenberg: maybe what we can do is have people monitor this and move them accordingly ←

18:26:12 <bmotik> Wouldn't it be simpler to have just one issues list, let eveyone add issues then, but be able to flag different issues appropriately?

Boris Motik: Wouldn't it be simpler to have just one issues list, let eveyone add issues then, but be able to flag different issues appropriately? ←

18:26:18 <IanH> Time check?

Ian Horrocks: Time check? ←

18:26:22 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

18:26:22 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

18:26:29 <Elisa> Bijan: maybe we can set it up so that they can be monitored automatically and moved

Bijan Parsia: maybe we can set it up so that they can be monitored automatically and moved ←

18:26:33 <sandro> Attendees: Sandro, Carsten, Rinke, IanH, MikeSmith, bijan, vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik, pfps, TommieMeyer, Alan, uli, Bernardo, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG, Ratnesh

Scribe problem: the name 'Attendees' does not match any of the 40 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Attendees: Sandro, Carsten, Rinke, IanH, MikeSmith, bijan, vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik, pfps, TommieMeyer, Alan, uli, Bernardo, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG, Ratnesh [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

18:26:35 <bijan> Ok

Bijan Parsia: Ok ←

18:26:41 <bijan> yep

Bijan Parsia: yep ←

18:26:46 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←

18:26:46 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←

18:26:47 <Elisa> Alan: we might be taking on more work that we are chartered to do, which I'm reluctant to do right now

Alan Ruttenberg: we might be taking on more work that we are chartered to do, which I'm reluctant to do right now ←

18:26:51 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←

18:26:51 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←

18:27:15 <Elisa> Ian: just to conclude, the initial action is that we will divvy up the work to manually move these issues

Ian Horrocks: just to conclude, the initial action is that we will divvy up the work to manually move these issues ←

18:27:24 <Elisa> to the tracker once the tracker is working sufficiently to do so

to the tracker once the tracker is working sufficiently to do so ←

18:27:36 <Elisa> Alan: anything else we want to cover at this point

Alan Ruttenberg: anything else we want to cover at this point ←

18:27:37 <JeffP> +1

Jeff Pan: +1 ←

18:27:42 <bmotik> Bye

Boris Motik: Bye ←

18:27:42 <Zakim> -GiorgosStoilos

Zakim IRC Bot: -GiorgosStoilos ←

18:27:42 <uli> bye

Uli Sattler: bye ←

18:27:42 <Rinke> bye

Rinke Hoekstra: bye ←

18:27:43 <Elisa> Alan: move to adjourn

Alan Ruttenberg: move to adjourn ←

18:27:45 <FabienG> Bye

Fabien Gandon: Bye ←

18:27:45 <sandro> Chair: Alan

18:27:45 <Zakim> -Alan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alan ←

18:27:45 <ew> Did Sandro's suggested convention for inserting into tracker get recorded somewhere?

Evan Wallace: Did Sandro's suggested convention for inserting into tracker get recorded somewhere? ←

18:27:46 <Zakim> -JeffP

Zakim IRC Bot: -JeffP ←

18:27:47 <Zakim> -vit

Zakim IRC Bot: -vit ←

18:27:48 <Elisa> Ian: second

Ian Horrocks: second ←

18:27:48 <Rinke> -Rinke

Rinke Hoekstra: -Rinke ←

18:27:48 <Zakim> -Carsten

Zakim IRC Bot: -Carsten ←

18:27:50 <Zakim> -IanH

Zakim IRC Bot: -IanH ←

18:27:50 <Zakim> -uli

Zakim IRC Bot: -uli ←

18:27:52 <Zakim> -Zhe_Wu

Zakim IRC Bot: -Zhe_Wu ←

18:27:53 <Zakim> -MikeSmith

Zakim IRC Bot: -MikeSmith ←

18:27:54 <Zakim> -Bernardo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Bernardo ←

18:27:54 <Zakim> -pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps ←

18:27:57 <Zakim> -Rinke

Zakim IRC Bot: -Rinke ←

18:28:01 <Zakim> -TommieMeyer

Zakim IRC Bot: -TommieMeyer ←

18:28:13 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Backward_compatibility_audit

Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Backward_compatibility_audit ←

18:28:20 <alanr> sandro should have action to modify the http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed to reflect it

Alan Ruttenberg: sandro should have action to modify the http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed to reflect it ←

18:28:24 <Zakim> -bijan

Zakim IRC Bot: -bijan ←

18:28:27 <Zakim> -Deborah

Zakim IRC Bot: -Deborah ←

18:28:32 <Zakim> -bmotik

Zakim IRC Bot: -bmotik ←

18:28:58 <ew> Thanks

Evan Wallace: Thanks ←

18:29:03 <Zakim> -FabienG

Zakim IRC Bot: -FabienG ←

18:30:06 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace

Zakim IRC Bot: -Evan_Wallace ←

18:30:08 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←

18:30:10 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

18:30:21 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make minutes ←

18:30:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-minutes.html sandro

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-minutes.html sandro ←

18:30:26 <Zakim> -Ratnesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ratnesh ←

18:30:27 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended ←

18:30:29 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.312.052.aaaa, Sandro, Rinke, +49.351.4.aabb, Carsten, MikeSmith, +012736aacc, JeremyCarroll, bijan, Elisa_Kendall, vit, bmotik, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, Alan,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.312.052.aaaa, Sandro, Rinke, +49.351.4.aabb, Carsten, MikeSmith, +012736aacc, JeremyCarroll, bijan, Elisa_Kendall, vit, bmotik, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, Alan, ←

18:30:34 <Zakim> ... TommieMeyer, +1.603.897.aadd, uli, Achille, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, Zhe_Wu, JeffP, FabienG, Deborah, Bernardo, Ratnesh, IanH

Zakim IRC Bot: ... TommieMeyer, +1.603.897.aadd, uli, Achille, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, Zhe_Wu, JeffP, FabienG, Deborah, Bernardo, Ratnesh, IanH ←

18:30:41 <Ratnesh> bye

Ratnesh Sahay: bye ←

18:39:45 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←

18:39:45 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-irc#T18-39-45

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-irc#T18-39-45 ←

Formatted by CommonScribe