13:56:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/26-ldp-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/26-ldp-irc ←
13:56:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
13:56:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP ←
13:56:26 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes ←
13:56:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
13:56:27 <trackbot> Date: 26 August 2013
14:00:11 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started ←
14:00:13 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
14:00:18 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
14:00:18 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it ←
14:00:19 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
14:00:19 <Zakim> sorry, TallTed, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, TallTed, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
14:00:27 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
14:00:41 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
14:00:44 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
14:01:12 <Arnaud> Arnaud has changed the topic to: LDPWG: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Main_Page - next call's agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.08.26
Arnaud Le Hors: Arnaud has changed the topic to: LDPWG: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Main_Page - next call's agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.08.26 ←
14:01:51 <Zakim> +SteveS
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveS ←
14:02:33 <Zakim> +JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: +JohnArwe ←
14:03:24 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
14:03:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see TallTed, Sandro, ??P2, Arnaud, SteveS, JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see TallTed, Sandro, ??P2, Arnaud, SteveS, JohnArwe ←
14:03:53 <JohnArwe> zakim, ??p2 is cody
John Arwe: zakim, ??p2 is cody ←
14:03:53 <Zakim> +cody; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cody; got it ←
14:05:03 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
14:05:29 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P13 is me
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P13 is me ←
14:05:29 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it ←
14:07:49 <Arnaud> nandana, are you there?
Arnaud Le Hors: nandana, are you there? ←
14:07:51 <nmihindu> JohnArwe, having bad connection. I will be muted the whole time.
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: JohnArwe, having bad connection. I will be muted the whole time. ←
14:08:04 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
14:09:00 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)
<ericP> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.08.26
<ericP> chair: arnaud
<ericP> topic: Admin
<ericP> subtopic: Approval of minutes of August 19
14:10:01 <ericP> RESOLVED: accept the minutes from 19 Aug
RESOLVED: accept the minutes from 19 Aug ←
<ericP> subtopic: Next meeting
14:10:39 <ericP> Arnaud: next meeting is the F2F
Arnaud Le Hors: next meeting is the F2F ←
14:11:32 <ericP> ... ericP, put your name on the F2F page
... ericP, put your name on the F2F page ←
14:11:44 <ericP> ... looking at TimBL's comments, we have a lot of work
... looking at TimBL's comments, we have a lot of work ←
14:12:11 <ericP> ... we don't have many registrants. i wonder if this is 'cause folks thought we were already done.
... we don't have many registrants. i wonder if this is 'cause folks thought we were already done. ←
14:12:25 <ericP> ... but we'll have to make a lot of decisions which will impact the spec
... but we'll have to make a lot of decisions which will impact the spec ←
14:13:02 <ericP> sandro: TimBL has a conflicting appointment in Scotland
Sandro Hawke: TimBL has a conflicting appointment in Scotland ←
14:13:33 <ericP> ... I wonder if it's worth scheduling a special telecon before the F2F for anyone who'd like to discuss with TimBL.
... I wonder if it's worth scheduling a special telecon before the F2F for anyone who'd like to discuss with TimBL. ←
14:13:44 <ericP> ... he should have some time before the F2F
... he should have some time before the F2F ←
14:13:59 <ericP> Arnaud: we'll follow up with him after the call
Arnaud Le Hors: we'll follow up with him after the call ←
14:14:49 <ericP> ... i don't want folks to be surprised by changes that we make to the LC
... i don't want folks to be surprised by changes that we make to the LC ←
14:15:07 <Zakim> +bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish ←
14:15:20 <ericP> ... he gave us a way out with compliance profiles, but they [changes] will still be significant
... he gave us a way out with compliance profiles, but they [changes] will still be significant ←
14:15:51 <ericP> Arnaud: please review the agenda, particularly those who will attend remotely
Arnaud Le Hors: please review the agenda, particularly those who will attend remotely ←
14:16:03 <bblfish> 1hi
Henry Story: 1hi ←
14:16:06 <ericP> topic: Actions and Issues
14:17:43 <ericP> SteveS: re: action-41, Steve Battle said he had a verbal discussion with David Wood
Steve Speicher: re: ACTION-41, Steve Battle said he had a verbal discussion with David Wood ←
14:18:07 <ericP> Arnaud: we can ask Steve Battle, though David Wood is expected at the F2F
Arnaud Le Hors: we can ask Steve Battle, though David Wood is expected at the F2F ←
14:19:00 <nmihindu> Test Suite update - Raul is working on it and he plans to complete it within next week.
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Test Suite update - Raul is working on it and he plans to complete it within next week. ←
14:19:12 <nmihindu> Primer update - We are progressing and most of the examples are done. It will be ready by F2F.
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Primer update - We are progressing and most of the examples are done. It will be ready by F2F. ←
14:19:14 <ericP> topic: Status Updates
14:19:25 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
14:19:37 <Zakim> -cody
Zakim IRC Bot: -cody ←
14:19:40 <svillata> Zakim, ??P15 is me
Serena Villata: Zakim, ??P15 is me ←
14:19:40 <Zakim> +svillata; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +svillata; got it ←
14:20:01 <ericP> cody: I was able to complete my edits on the primer, but haven't checked them in yet
Cody Burleson: I was able to complete my edits on the primer, but haven't checked them in yet ←
14:20:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:20:27 <JohnArwe> zakim, IPCaller is Cody
John Arwe: zakim, IPCaller is Cody ←
14:20:27 <Zakim> +Cody; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Cody; got it ←
14:21:08 <nmihindu> Cody, I already check in stuff today too, I can do it for cody if needed.
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Cody, I already check in stuff today too, I can do it for cody if needed. ←
14:21:55 <ericP> Arnaud: our goal should be to have edits completed so we can work on them at the F2F
Arnaud Le Hors: our goal should be to have edits completed so we can work on them at the F2F ←
14:22:01 <ericP> topic: LC Comments
14:22:44 <ericP> Arnaud: TimBL sent us lots of comments, but he's pointing out a general problem: there's way too much optional stuff (SHOULDs)
Arnaud Le Hors: TimBL sent us lots of comments, but he's pointing out a general problem: there's way too much optional stuff (SHOULDs) ←
14:23:11 <ericP> ... there are conflicting requirements; Martin Nally is reading the spec and saying "why is this a MUST?"
... there are conflicting requirements; Martin Nally is reading the spec and saying "why is this a MUST?" ←
14:23:34 <ericP> ... TimBL wants to have a server which does whatever the client asks, regardless of whether it understands
... TimBL wants to have a server which does whatever the client asks, regardless of whether it understands ←
14:23:53 <ericP> ... this is like our "vanilla server" which doesn't know the domain.
... this is like our "vanilla server" which doesn't know the domain. ←
14:24:28 <ericP> ... On the other end of the spectrum, people like Martin Nally are using domain-specific servers.
... On the other end of the spectrum, people like Martin Nally are using domain-specific servers. ←
14:24:58 <ericP> ... There are constraints that the client doens't need to know about which will drive the behavior
... There are constraints that the client doens't need to know about which will drive the behavior ←
14:25:35 <ericP> ... I think we need a switch in the spec between domain-specific and general.
... I think we need a switch in the spec between domain-specific and general. ←
14:25:35 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
14:26:48 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
14:27:14 <ericP> ericP: can look at what use cases prevent a domain-specific server from complying with a MUST
Eric Prud'hommeaux: can look at what use cases prevent a domain-specific server from complying with a MUST ←
14:27:35 <ericP> bblfish: could look at is as speech acts. (though may be a bit late.)
Henry Story: could look at is as speech acts. (though may be a bit late.) ←
14:27:36 <JohnArwe> @ericp: when you spoke about justifiying options, are you suggesting that those be recorded/written?
John Arwe: @ericp: when you spoke about justifiying options, are you suggesting that those be recorded/written? ←
14:29:17 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
14:29:21 <ericP> @JohnArwe, yeah, probably. though mostly i want to make sure we don't rule out MUSTs on domain-specific servers simply because they're only helpful to general clients
@JohnArwe, yeah, probably. though mostly i want to make sure we don't rule out MUSTs on domain-specific servers simply because they're only helpful to general clients ←
14:29:45 <ericP> sandro: what's the diff between and app-specific server and a client that's doing something that you're not expecting
Sandro Hawke: what's the diff between and app-specific server and a client that's doing something that you're not expecting ←
14:30:31 <ericP> ... e.g. if client 1 tries delete something on the server and client 2 restores it, that's the same effect as the server not complying with the DELETE request
... e.g. if client 1 tries delete something on the server and client 2 restores it, that's the same effect as the server not complying with the DELETE request ←
14:30:40 <ericP> ... that may be a helpful way to look at this.
... that may be a helpful way to look at this. ←
14:30:52 <bblfish> +1 for sandro. That would be a bit like what I was thinking.
Henry Story: +1 for sandro. That would be a bit like what I was thinking. ←
14:30:55 <ericP> Arnaud: interesting idea.
Arnaud Le Hors: interesting idea. ←
14:31:22 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
14:31:29 <ericP> ... another issue for TimBL is that the client might POST some triples to the server and the server doesn't keep all of them
... another issue for TimBL is that the client might POST some triples to the server and the server doesn't keep all of them ←
14:31:42 <ericP> ... that's just like another client deleting them
... that's just like another client deleting them ←
14:32:20 <ericP> ... The use case is that you have an existing service and you add a thin LDP layer on top of it
... The use case is that you have an existing service and you add a thin LDP layer on top of it ←
14:32:27 <ericP> q+
q+ ←
14:32:43 <Arnaud> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
14:32:55 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
14:33:26 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
14:33:44 <JohnArwe> @Sandro: are you thinking that server behaviors that cannot be reliably tested without "legislating out" competing requests might be .... just not testable, something else? and if not testable, is the implication "therefore not interesting to specify" ?
John Arwe: @Sandro: are you thinking that server behaviors that cannot be reliably tested without "legislating out" competing requests might be .... just not testable, something else? and if not testable, is the implication "therefore not interesting to specify" ? ←
14:35:06 <JohnArwe> ericp, mute
14:35:15 <ericP> sandro: as a client, i'd like to know how the service is going to behave.
Sandro Hawke: as a client, i'd like to know how the service is going to behave. ←
14:35:31 <ericP> ... i'd like to know if it's a general server or an app-specific server.
... i'd like to know if it's a general server or an app-specific server. ←
14:35:38 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
14:35:55 <Arnaud> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
14:36:31 <bblfish> -1 the idea that the app specific server should be the first thing is completely wrong.
Henry Story: -1 the idea that the app specific server should be the first thing is completely wrong. ←
14:36:53 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
14:37:43 <ericP> ericP: i believe that our chartered job 1 is to address the app-specific services. that's the largest audience we can enable.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i believe that our chartered job 1 is to address the app-specific services. that's the largest audience we can enable. ←
14:38:14 <ericP> bblfish: i think that step 0 is that the client can POST something and find the data there.
Henry Story: i think that step 0 is that the client can POST something and find the data there. ←
14:38:29 <ericP> ... then there would be restrictions for specific kinds of containers
... then there would be restrictions for specific kinds of containers ←
14:38:52 <ericP> ... for example, you can post a blog entry or a shopping cart entry.
... for example, you can post a blog entry or a shopping cart entry. ←
14:39:09 <ericP> ... or you want folks to post bugs to a bug report
... or you want folks to post bugs to a bug report ←
14:39:41 <ericP> q/
q/ ←
14:39:43 <ericP> q?
q? ←
14:39:49 <ericP> q+
q+ ←
14:40:32 <JohnArwe> I note that TimBL's comments do not show up in the LC comment tracker, although he emailed public-ldp-comments in both cases
John Arwe: I note that TimBL's comments do not show up in the LC comment tracker, although he emailed public-ldp-comments in both cases ←
14:40:43 <Arnaud> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
14:41:11 <JohnArwe> Is there something we need to do explicitly for the tracker to ingest them?
John Arwe: Is there something we need to do explicitly for the tracker to ingest them? ←
14:41:38 <ericP> Arnaud: somehow we need to capture these two behaviors
Arnaud Le Hors: somehow we need to capture these two behaviors ←
14:41:42 <SteveS> JohnArwe, yes Arnaud has added them before, guess he didn't get to the new ones
Steve Speicher: JohnArwe, yes Arnaud has added them before, guess he didn't get to the new ones ←
14:42:03 <SteveS> To be clear, as far as the scope of our charter: " the group is chartered to produce one or more W3C Recommendations that define a RESTful way to read and write Linked Data, suitable for use in application integration and the construction of interoperable and modular software systems."
Steve Speicher: To be clear, as far as the scope of our charter: " the group is chartered to produce one or more W3C Recommendations that define a RESTful way to read and write Linked Data, suitable for use in application integration and the construction of interoperable and modular software systems." ←
14:42:08 <bblfish> Agree. this needs investigation
Henry Story: Agree. this needs investigation ←
14:42:37 <bblfish> who was that talking?
Henry Story: who was that talking? ←
14:42:41 <Arnaud> cody
Arnaud Le Hors: cody ←
14:42:46 <Zakim> -bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: -bblfish ←
14:42:50 <ericP> cody: i can see generic triples on level 0 and higher levels that restrict the behavior
Cody Burleson: i can see generic triples on level 0 and higher levels that restrict the behavior ←
14:43:45 <Zakim> +bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish ←
14:43:47 <JohnArwe> you broke up at end ericp
John Arwe: you broke up at end ericp ←
14:44:06 <ericP> SteveS: to what extent can we say that level 0 is just HTTP
Steve Speicher: to what extent can we say that level 0 is just HTTP ←
14:46:33 <SteveS> I'm flexible too, like Arnaud Tues and Fridays are more open than others
Steve Speicher: I'm flexible too, like Arnaud Tues and Fridays are more open than others ←
14:49:19 <ericP> Arnaud: we have two sets of comments
Arnaud Le Hors: we have two sets of comments ←
14:49:25 <ericP> ... small wants from Ashok
... small wants from Ashok ←
14:49:35 <ericP> ... large ones from Mark Baker
... large ones from Mark Baker ←
14:49:43 <ericP> ... maybe we can discuss the latter
... maybe we can discuss the latter ←
14:49:54 <SteveS> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/55082/ldp/2812
Steve Speicher: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/55082/ldp/2812 ←
14:51:44 <ericP> SteveS: the primary issue i see is the DELETE comment
Steve Speicher: the primary issue i see is the DELETE comment ←
14:52:13 <ericP> ... we say that you MUST return 404 or 410 on future GETs
... we say that you MUST return 404 or 410 on future GETs ←
14:52:25 <ericP> ... Mark says we're re-defining HTTP
... Mark says we're re-defining HTTP ←
14:52:58 <ericP> JohnArwe: that wasn't our intent. we just wanted to shorten people's search of the underlying specs
John Arwe: that wasn't our intent. we just wanted to shorten people's search of the underlying specs ←
14:53:05 <JohnArwe> BTW I've gotten similar feedback that it's not clear what's us re-stating other specs vs our own net add from internal implementers.
John Arwe: BTW I've gotten similar feedback that it's not clear what's us re-stating other specs vs our own net add from internal implementers. ←
14:53:37 <ericP> Arnaud: Mark's assertion is that we can't constrain HTTP and our spec specifically is intended to constrain HTTP
Arnaud Le Hors: Mark's assertion is that we can't constrain HTTP and our spec specifically is intended to constrain HTTP ←
14:54:01 <ericP> ... we may be able to address the DELETE comment, but maybe there's something larger behind them.
... we may be able to address the DELETE comment, but maybe there's something larger behind them. ←
14:54:12 <ericP> ... relates also to the question of how generic a client can be
... relates also to the question of how generic a client can be ←
14:54:39 <ericP> ... AndyS asked if httpd (Apache Web Server) would be a compliant HTTP server, and if not, why not?
... AndyS asked if httpd (Apache Web Server) would be a compliant HTTP server, and if not, why not? ←
14:55:11 <ericP> SteveS: Mark appears to think of all web resources as fitting into the LDPR bucket
Steve Speicher: Mark appears to think of all web resources as fitting into the LDPR bucket ←
14:55:29 <JohnArwe> I think Andy's question was LDP compliance not HTTP
John Arwe: I think Andy's question was LDP compliance not HTTP ←
14:55:44 <ericP> ... we're seeing LDPRs as only those resources which can advertise themselves as such.
... we're seeing LDPRs as only those resources which can advertise themselves as such. ←
14:56:22 <bblfish> I think one should ask him a few more questions on this
Henry Story: I think one should ask him a few more questions on this ←
14:56:39 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
14:56:39 <ericP> Arnaud: his last line says that he expects all web servers as being LDP servers
Arnaud Le Hors: his last line says that he expects all web servers as being LDP servers ←
14:57:01 <ericP> ... I see that an LDP server is an HTTP server, but not sure the converse is true.
... I see that an LDP server is an HTTP server, but not sure the converse is true. ←
14:57:11 <ericP> ... if so, if there anything of value in our spec?
... if so, if there anything of value in our spec? ←
14:57:34 <ericP> bblfish: perhaps we should answer asking why can't refine subsets of resources.
Henry Story: perhaps we should answer asking why can't refine subsets of resources. ←
14:57:55 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
14:58:01 <ericP> ... we can ask what is the danger. if we're doing something silly, it should be easy to give us compelling screw case.
... we can ask what is the danger. if we're doing something silly, it should be easy to give us compelling screw case. ←
14:58:58 <ericP> Arnaud: we may need to work these in advance.
Arnaud Le Hors: we may need to work these in advance. ←
14:59:21 <ericP> ... we should have any dialog we need to clarify comments before the F2F.
... we should have any dialog we need to clarify comments before the F2F. ←
15:00:18 <ericP> ... the editor's should send mail clarifying our intent and asking about remaining conflict.
... the editor's should send mail clarifying our intent and asking about remaining conflict. ←
15:00:27 <SteveS> I did update the comments' "assigned to" field last week
Steve Speicher: I did update the comments' "assigned to" field last week ←
15:00:30 <ericP> ... i'll work with sandro to set up a call with TimBL
... i'll work with sandro to set up a call with TimBL ←
15:00:57 <Zakim> -svillata
Zakim IRC Bot: -svillata ←
15:00:59 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
15:00:59 <Zakim> -TallTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed ←
15:01:00 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
15:01:00 <Zakim> -SteveS
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveS ←
15:01:02 <Zakim> -JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: -JohnArwe ←
15:01:04 <Zakim> -Cody
Zakim IRC Bot: -Cody ←
15:01:05 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
15:01:12 <Zakim> -nmihindu
Zakim IRC Bot: -nmihindu ←
15:01:41 <Zakim> -bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: -bblfish ←
15:01:42 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended ←
15:01:42 <Zakim> Attendees were TallTed, Sandro, Arnaud, SteveS, JohnArwe, cody, nmihindu, EricP, bblfish, svillata
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were TallTed, Sandro, Arnaud, SteveS, JohnArwe, cody, nmihindu, EricP, bblfish, svillata ←
Formatted by CommonScribe