<Arnaud> Guest: Cody Burleson, Base22
<Arnaud> Chair: Arnaud
15:00:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ldp-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ldp-irc ←
15:00:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
15:00:36 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP ←
15:00:36 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started ←
15:00:37 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
15:00:37 <trackbot> Date: 11 February 2013
15:00:50 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:01:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:01:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a] ←
15:01:13 <Zakim> +TallTed
Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed ←
15:01:36 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:36 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted ←
15:01:39 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
15:01:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.214.537.aaaa, JohnArwe, Arnaud, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], TallTed (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.214.537.aaaa, JohnArwe, Arnaud, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], TallTed (muted) ←
15:01:39 <sergio> Zakim: [IPcaller] is me
15:01:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see dret, rgarcia, RRSAgent, antonis, Zakim, JohnArwe, stevebattle, Ashok, TallTed, SteveS, sergio, cygri, bblfish, AndyS, bhyland, oberger, Arnaud, betehess, trackbot,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dret, rgarcia, RRSAgent, antonis, Zakim, JohnArwe, stevebattle, Ashok, TallTed, SteveS, sergio, cygri, bblfish, AndyS, bhyland, oberger, Arnaud, betehess, trackbot, ←
15:01:41 <Zakim> ... Yves, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Yves, sandro, ericP ←
15:01:44 <Ashok> zakim, IPcaller is me
Ashok Malhotra: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
15:01:44 <Zakim> +Ashok; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ashok; got it ←
15:01:51 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
15:01:59 <sergio> Zakim: [IPcaller.a] is me
15:02:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:02:12 <Zakim> +[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM] ←
15:02:13 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
15:02:16 <dret> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Erik Wilde: zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
15:02:16 <Zakim> +dret; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dret; got it ←
15:02:18 <SteveS> zakim, [IBM] is me
Steve Speicher: zakim, [IBM] is me ←
15:02:18 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveS; got it ←
15:02:25 <Zakim> +SteveBattle
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveBattle ←
15:02:28 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:02:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.214.537.aaaa, JohnArwe, Arnaud, Ashok, [IPcaller.a], TallTed (muted), ??P13, dret, SteveS, ??P17, SteveBattle
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.214.537.aaaa, JohnArwe, Arnaud, Ashok, [IPcaller.a], TallTed (muted), ??P13, dret, SteveS, ??P17, SteveBattle ←
15:02:30 <rgarcia> zakim, ??P17 is me
Raúl García Castro: zakim, ??P17 is me ←
15:02:30 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +rgarcia; got it ←
15:02:43 <AndyS> zakim, ??P13 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P13 is me ←
15:02:43 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:02:45 <sergio> Zakim: [IPcaller.a] is me
15:02:49 <AndyS> (maybe)
Andy Seaborne: (maybe) ←
15:03:40 <sergio> I guess [IPcaller.a] is me, but Zakim is ignoring my commands
Sergio Fernández: I guess [IPcaller.a] is me, but Zakim is ignoring my commands ←
15:03:48 <Arnaud> zakim, who is here?
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who is here? ←
15:03:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.214.537.aaaa, JohnArwe, Arnaud, Ashok, [IPcaller.a], TallTed (muted), AndyS, dret, SteveS, rgarcia, SteveBattle
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.214.537.aaaa, JohnArwe, Arnaud, Ashok, [IPcaller.a], TallTed (muted), AndyS, dret, SteveS, rgarcia, SteveBattle ←
15:03:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see roger, dret, rgarcia, RRSAgent, antonis, Zakim, JohnArwe, stevebattle, Ashok, TallTed, SteveS, sergio, cygri, bblfish, AndyS, bhyland, oberger, Arnaud, betehess,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see roger, dret, rgarcia, RRSAgent, antonis, Zakim, JohnArwe, stevebattle, Ashok, TallTed, SteveS, sergio, cygri, bblfish, AndyS, bhyland, oberger, Arnaud, betehess, ←
15:03:50 <Zakim> ... trackbot, Yves, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, Yves, sandro, ericP ←
15:04:07 <JohnArwe> zakim, aaaa is Cody
John Arwe: zakim, aaaa is Cody ←
15:04:07 <Zakim> +Cody; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Cody; got it ←
15:04:19 <Zakim> +roger
Zakim IRC Bot: +roger ←
15:04:56 <sergio> zakim: [IPcaller.a] is me
15:05:23 <sergio> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
Sergio Fernández: zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me ←
15:05:24 <Zakim> +sergio; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +sergio; got it ←
15:05:33 <Zakim> -TallTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed ←
15:06:33 <Arnaud> zakim, who's here?
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's here? ←
15:06:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cody, JohnArwe, Arnaud, Ashok, sergio, AndyS, dret, SteveS, rgarcia, SteveBattle, roger
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Cody, JohnArwe, Arnaud, Ashok, sergio, AndyS, dret, SteveS, rgarcia, SteveBattle, roger ←
15:06:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see nmihindu, krp, roger, dret, rgarcia, RRSAgent, antonis, Zakim, JohnArwe, stevebattle, Ashok, TallTed, SteveS, sergio, cygri, bblfish, AndyS, bhyland, oberger, Arnaud,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see nmihindu, krp, roger, dret, rgarcia, RRSAgent, antonis, Zakim, JohnArwe, stevebattle, Ashok, TallTed, SteveS, sergio, cygri, bblfish, AndyS, bhyland, oberger, Arnaud, ←
15:06:38 <Zakim> ... betehess, trackbot, Yves, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... betehess, trackbot, Yves, sandro, ericP ←
15:06:38 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
15:07:33 <stevebattle> I'm happy to volunteer
Steve Battle: I'm happy to volunteer ←
15:07:36 <TallTed> apologies; pulled into an urgent call. *may* be able to rejoin later.
Ted Thibodeau: apologies; pulled into an urgent call. *may* be able to rejoin later. ←
15:07:49 <dret> thanks, stevebattle!
Erik Wilde: thanks, stevebattle! ←
15:08:33 <stevebattle> scribe: stevebattle
(Scribe set to Steve Battle)
15:08:51 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
15:08:53 <Ashok> scribenick: stevebattle
15:09:06 <stevebattle> topic: Minutes from last week
15:09:08 <krp> zakim, ??P27 is me
Kevin Page: zakim, ??P27 is me ←
15:09:08 <Zakim> +krp; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +krp; got it ←
15:09:14 <stevebattle> Proposed accept minutes
Proposed accept minutes ←
15:09:21 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
15:09:21 <dret> +1
Erik Wilde: +1 ←
15:09:26 <sergio> +1
Sergio Fernández: +1 ←
15:09:34 <stevebattle> Resolved: Minutes of February 4, 2013 approved
RESOLVED: Minutes of February 4, 2013 approved ←
<stevebattle> topic: Tracking of actions and issues
15:09:59 <stevebattle> No open actions closed
No open actions closed ←
15:10:09 <stevebattle> No pending issues
No pending issues ←
<stevebattle> No raised issues
No raised issues ←
<stevebattle> topic: Open issues
15:10:13 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P12 is me
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P12 is me ←
15:10:13 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it ←
15:10:20 <stevebattle> subtopic: Issue-10 Guidance around ETags
15:10:35 <sergio> issue-10
15:10:35 <trackbot> ISSUE-10 -- Include clarifications and guidance around ETags -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-10 -- Include clarifications and guidance around ETags -- open ←
15:10:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/10
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/10 ←
15:10:49 <JohnArwe> +1
15:10:51 <rgarcia> +1 :)
Raúl García Castro: +1 :) ←
15:10:51 <stevebattle> Propose that we accept Raúl's change
Propose that we accept Raúl's change ←
15:10:55 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
15:10:55 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
15:10:56 <stevebattle> +1
+1 ←
15:10:57 <dret> +1
Erik Wilde: +1 ←
15:11:01 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
15:11:05 <sergio> +1
Sergio Fernández: +1 ←
15:11:09 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
15:11:10 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
15:11:12 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
15:11:56 <cody> +1
Cody Burleson: +1 ←
15:11:57 <Zakim> +Yves
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yves ←
15:12:01 <JohnArwe> (from agenda) link to change proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013Feb/0053.html
John Arwe: (from agenda) link to change proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013Feb/0053.html ←
15:12:04 <dret> all issues can be found here: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues
Erik Wilde: all issues can be found here: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues ←
15:12:33 <Yves> +1
Yves Lafon: +1 ←
15:12:35 <stevebattle> proposal carried: issue-10 closed
proposal carried: ISSUE-10 closed ←
<stevebattle> Resolved: Close Issue-10, accepting Raúl's proposed change
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-10, accepting Raúl's proposed change ←
15:12:43 <dret> specific ones on the agenda usually are linked from the agenda, such as http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.11]
Erik Wilde: specific ones on the agenda usually are linked from the agenda, such as http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.11] ←
15:12:53 <stevebattle> subtopic: Issue-34: Aggregation proposals
15:12:49 <sergio> issue-34
15:12:49 <trackbot> ISSUE-34 -- Adding and removing arcs in weak aggregation -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-34 -- Adding and removing arcs in weak aggregation -- open ←
15:12:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/34
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/34 ←
15:13:39 <Zakim> +bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish ←
15:13:57 <stevebattle> Arnaud: We should use John's proposal as a reference. 3 pages with different concept is too difficult.
Arnaud Le Hors: We should use John's proposal as a reference. 3 pages with different concept is too difficult. ←
15:14:06 <stevebattle> I'd like to narrow the scope.
I'd like to narrow the scope. ←
15:14:21 <stevebattle> Maybe we can even close issue 34?
Maybe we can even close ISSUE-34? ←
15:14:35 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
15:14:35 <stevebattle> The ontology is still up for discussion
The ontology is still up for discussion ←
15:14:47 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-34 Aggregation proposals selecting John's proposal as the basis moving forward.
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-34 Aggregation proposals selecting John's proposal as the basis moving forward. ←
15:14:55 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
15:14:58 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-34
Arnaud Le Hors: ISSUE-34">http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-34 ←
15:15:11 <SteveS> Direct link: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Issue-34:_Back_to_Basics
Steve Speicher: Direct link: ISSUE-34:_Back_to_Basics">http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-34:_Back_to_Basics ←
15:15:17 <rgarcia> +q
Raúl García Castro: +q ←
15:15:31 <Arnaud> ack rgarcia
Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia ←
15:15:45 <stevebattle> Raul: This proposal doesn't entail any chnage in the specification right now?
Raúl García Castro: This proposal doesn't entail any change in the specification right now? ←
15:15:56 <roger> I just think that the unresolved topics will just continue in the refinement of Johns proposal, or they will spill over into issue 37 ...
Roger Menday: I just think that the unresolved topics will just continue in the refinement of Johns proposal, or they will spill over into ISSUE-37 ... ←
15:15:58 <stevebattle> s/chnage/change/
15:16:04 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
15:16:06 <stevebattle> That's correct
That's correct ←
15:16:06 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
15:16:09 <sergio> +1
Sergio Fernández: +1 ←
15:16:22 <dret> +1
Erik Wilde: +1 ←
15:16:26 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
15:16:27 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
15:16:32 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
15:16:34 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
15:16:55 <JohnArwe> @roger: certainly some things unresolved. just in the course of doing the wiki page I found a couple (listed at bottom) and said they're follow-ons
John Arwe: @roger: certainly some things unresolved. just in the course of doing the wiki page I found a couple (listed at bottom) and said they're follow-ons ←
15:17:16 <cody> 0 (unfamiliar with details of the issue)
Cody Burleson: 0 (unfamiliar with details of the issue) ←
15:17:31 <bblfish> What is resolved?
Henry Story: What is resolved? ←
15:17:32 <JohnArwe> ...the old tradeoff of solving all problems with it vs some useful subset + further evolution
John Arwe: ...the old tradeoff of solving all problems with it vs some useful subset + further evolution ←
15:17:35 <stevebattle> Issue Resolved
Issue Resolved ←
15:17:36 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-34 Aggregation proposals selecting John's proposal as the basis moving forward.
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-34 Aggregation proposals selecting John's proposal as the basis moving forward. ←
15:17:43 <bblfish> ah
Henry Story: ah ←
15:17:44 <bblfish> ok
Henry Story: ok ←
15:17:45 <stevebattle> The issue is resolved
The issue is resolved ←
15:18:41 <stevebattle> Ta
Ta ←
15:19:26 <stevebattle> Arnaud: One of the main differences is the class hierarchy - this might be a separate issue we can open. If you have a separate proposal please submit.
Arnaud Le Hors: One of the main differences is the class hierarchy - this might be a separate issue we can open. If you have a separate proposal please submit. ←
15:19:46 <stevebattle> subtopic : LDP Model
subtopic : LDP Model ←
15:19:58 <JohnArwe> issue-37?
15:19:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-37 -- What is the LDP data model and the LDP interaction model? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-37 -- What is the LDP data model and the LDP interaction model? -- open ←
15:19:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/37
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/37 ←
15:20:41 <stevebattle> Arnaud: I didn't see much discussio. EripP drafted material for the spec to introduce the model. Henry added additional material. We need to choose one rather than accumulating more text.
Arnaud Le Hors: I didn't see much discussio. EripP drafted material for the spec to introduce the model. Henry added additional material. We need to choose one rather than accumulating more text. ←
15:21:07 <bblfish> I think it's probably ok for the moment, there was a lot of discussion
Henry Story: I think it's probably ok for the moment, there was a lot of discussion ←
15:21:47 <bblfish> Sorry, I don't hear much from here.
Henry Story: Sorry, I don't hear much from here. ←
15:22:00 <stevebattle> Arnaud: (To bblfish) what was your motivation in adding the text?
Arnaud Le Hors: (To bblfish) what was your motivation in adding the text? ←
15:22:09 <Arnaud> we hear you fine
Arnaud Le Hors: we hear you fine ←
15:22:46 <stevebattle> bblfish: We agree that creating a container is possible - may need an issue for container creation.
Henry Story: We agree that creating a container is possible - may need an issue for container creation. ←
15:23:05 <cody> Thanks, @John. This is very educational so far. I already have some good ideas of things to go offline and review/study after this call (throughout the week).
Cody Burleson: Thanks, @John. This is very educational so far. I already have some good ideas of things to go offline and review/study after this call (throughout the week). ←
15:23:10 <stevebattle> Aranud: Was this a choice between your's and EricP's text?
Arnaud Le Hors: Was this a choice between your's and Eric's text? ←
15:23:39 <stevebattle> bblfish: Yes it was another proposal (we couldn't edit the original at that time).
Henry Story: Yes it was another proposal (we couldn't edit the original at that time). ←
15:23:59 <stevebattle> s/Aranud/Arnaud/
15:24:30 <stevebattle> s/EricP/Eric/
15:24:36 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
15:24:48 <stevebattle> s/Eric/dret/
15:24:50 <JohnArwe> the text we're talking about is http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-37#Proposed_Spec_Section_.28for_the_LDP_Spec.29 right?
John Arwe: the text we're talking about is ISSUE-37#Proposed_Spec_Section_.28for_the_LDP_Spec.29">http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-37#Proposed_Spec_Section_.28for_the_LDP_Spec.29 right? ←
15:25:04 <dret> ok, will do.
Erik Wilde: ok, will do. ←
15:25:16 <bblfish> yes that's the text
Henry Story: yes that's the text ←
15:25:17 <SteveS> JohnArwe: right
John Arwe: right [ Scribe Assist by Steve Speicher ] ←
15:25:20 <stevebattle> subtopic: Issue-11 Server-managed properties
15:25:21 <sergio> issue-11
15:25:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-11 -- Do we need to define server-managed properties or do we leave them to applications? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-11 -- Do we need to define server-managed properties or do we leave them to applications? -- open ←
15:25:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/11
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/11 ←
15:25:45 <Zakim> +??P30
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30 ←
15:25:49 <dret> AndyS, i will send my comparison/combination of the two porposals to the list. this is how we should get convergence.
Erik Wilde: AndyS, i will send my comparison/combination of the two porposals to the list. this is how we should get convergence. ←
15:25:57 <svillata> Zakim, ??P30 is me
Serena Villata: Zakim, ??P30 is me ←
15:25:57 <Zakim> +svillata; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +svillata; got it ←
15:26:10 <stevebattle> Arnaud: Should we close or have a discussion?
Arnaud Le Hors: Should we close or have a discussion? ←
15:26:16 <dret> all, if you have more comments/alternatives/criticisms, please send them to the list, and it will be my task to address them
Erik Wilde: all, if you have more comments/alternatives/criticisms, please send them to the list, and it will be my task to address them ←
15:26:18 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-11 Server-managed properties accepting Raúl's proposed change.
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-11 Server-managed properties accepting Raúl's proposed change. ←
15:26:25 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
15:26:33 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:26:55 <sergio> q+
Sergio Fernández: q+ ←
15:26:56 <stevebattle> bblfish: This is about the Atom model. Is metadata in the content or the header.
Henry Story: This is about the Atom model. Is metadata in the content or the header. ←
15:27:24 <SteveS> creating a container is a different open issue
Steve Speicher: creating a container is a different open issue ←
15:27:25 <stevebattle> bblfish: I'm not sure about this anymore.
Henry Story: I'm not sure about this anymore. ←
15:27:29 <Arnaud> ack sergio
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sergio ←
15:28:05 <stevebattle> sergio: I'd prefer to keep both options open at this stage.
Sergio Fernández: I'd prefer to keep both options open at this stage. ←
15:28:15 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:28:33 <stevebattle> sergio: I don't want to confuse the status of the server with the content.
Sergio Fernández: I don't want to confuse the status of the server with the content. ←
15:29:08 <SteveS> +1 (to accept Raúl's proposal)
Steve Speicher: +1 (to accept Raúl's proposal) ←
15:29:26 <sergio> q+
Sergio Fernández: q+ ←
15:29:31 <stevebattle> I don't see how these could be confused.
I don't see how these could be confused. ←
15:30:04 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
15:30:07 <stevebattle> Arnaud: The spec says the server SHOULD ignore these values. Raúl wants to leave it open.
Arnaud Le Hors: The spec says the server SHOULD ignore these values. Raúl wants to leave it open. ←
15:30:20 <Arnaud> ack sergio
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sergio ←
15:30:45 <JohnArwe> Arnaud said MUST, not SHOULD, ignore. Which, aside from caps, is what the spec copy/paste says in the issue body.
John Arwe: Arnaud said MUST, not SHOULD, ignore. Which, aside from caps, is what the spec copy/paste says in the issue body. ←
15:30:55 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:30:57 <stevebattle> sergio: These properties aren't intended for server data, only resource metadata.
Sergio Fernández: These properties aren't intended for server data, only resource metadata. ←
15:31:39 <Zakim> +sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro ←
15:31:46 <stevebattle> bblfish: Is there a requirement that these metadata properties should be synchronized with the content?
Henry Story: Is there a requirement that these metadata properties should be synchronized with the content? ←
15:31:49 <bblfish> ok
Henry Story: ok ←
15:31:50 <Yves> and what about properties in the headers and in the content diverging?
Yves Lafon: and what about properties in the headers and in the content diverging? ←
15:32:43 <stevebattle> bblfish: You shouldn't be able to change properties such as time?
Henry Story: You shouldn't be able to change properties such as time? ←
15:33:21 <stevebattle> SteveS: The relationship with link headers needs a new issue.
Steve Speicher: The relationship with link headers needs a new issue. ←
15:34:01 <dret> i think i'd even say MAY ignore, or "MAY choose to manage server-side". we should just list those that clients SHOULD be prepared to see, because they are designated as part of the LDP protocol.
Erik Wilde: i think i'd even say MAY ignore, or "MAY choose to manage server-side". we should just list those that clients SHOULD be prepared to see, because they are designated as part of the LDP protocol. ←
15:34:15 <dret> +1
Erik Wilde: +1 ←
15:34:20 <cody> +1
Cody Burleson: +1 ←
15:34:21 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
15:34:22 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
15:34:22 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
15:34:23 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
15:34:23 <bblfish> It's certainly more efficient. Otherwise servers have to look at the whole content
Henry Story: It's certainly more efficient. Otherwise servers have to look at the whole content ←
15:34:28 <JohnArwe> +1
15:34:31 <sergio> +1
Sergio Fernández: +1 ←
15:34:32 <stevebattle> Proposal: Close - accept Raúl's proposal. The server May use these heaader properties
PROPOSED: Close - accept Raúl's proposal. The server May use these heaader properties ←
15:34:34 <stevebattle> +1
+1 ←
15:34:37 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
15:34:37 <bblfish> +0
Henry Story: +0 ←
15:34:44 <krp> +0
Kevin Page: +0 ←
15:34:49 <Yves> +0, bordeline -1
Yves Lafon: +0, bordeline -1 ←
15:35:15 <stevebattle> yves: What if you have properties that conflict between header and content?
Yves Lafon: What if you have properties that conflict between header and content? ←
15:35:39 <stevebattle> q+
q+ ←
15:35:54 <bblfish> ah I see
Henry Story: ah I see ←
15:36:05 <Arnaud> ack stevebattle
Arnaud Le Hors: ack stevebattle ←
15:36:06 <dret> if we define the protocol to even allow conflicting location of data, then we really should say which one has preference. but in the end, maybe it's safer to simply not allow data in different locations.
Erik Wilde: if we define the protocol to even allow conflicting location of data, then we really should say which one has preference. but in the end, maybe it's safer to simply not allow data in different locations. ←
15:36:33 <ericP> stevebattle: it's important to be able to permit the metadata to disagree with the headers
Steve Battle: it's important to be able to permit the metadata to disagree with the content [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
15:36:43 <ericP> s/headers/content/
15:36:50 <Yves> as dret says
Yves Lafon: as dret says ←
15:36:55 <Yves> avoid conflict, or be explicit
Yves Lafon: avoid conflict, or be explicit ←
15:37:06 <stevebattle> dret: We should have a clear model for which takes precedence.
Erik Wilde: We should have a clear model for which takes precedence. ←
15:37:14 <dret> i'd prefer to avoidn conflict. adds conmplexity and brittleness.
Erik Wilde: i'd prefer to avoidn conflict. adds conmplexity and brittleness. ←
15:37:22 <Yves> yep
Yves Lafon: yep ←
15:37:22 <AndyS> On GET, return both? One over the other? Add a "meta" flag to request?
Andy Seaborne: On GET, return both? One over the other? Add a "meta" flag to request? ←
15:37:50 <dret> AndyS, return both what?
Erik Wilde: AndyS, return both what? ←
15:38:10 <AndyS> dret - property values
Andy Seaborne: dret - property values ←
15:38:32 <stevebattle> Arnaud: close issue-11
Arnaud Le Hors: close ISSUE-11 ←
<Arnaud> Resolved: Close ISSUE-11 Server-managed properties accepting Raúl's proposed change.
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-11 Server-managed properties accepting Raúl's proposed change. ←
15:38:38 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
15:38:42 <stevebattle> close issue-11
15:38:42 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-11 Do we need to define server-managed properties or do we leave them to applications?.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-11 Do we need to define server-managed properties or do we leave them to applications?. ←
15:38:48 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
15:38:51 <dret> zakim, pick an issue
Erik Wilde: zakim, pick an issue ←
15:38:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick an issue', dret
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'pick an issue', dret ←
15:39:21 <bblfish> Issue-36
15:39:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-36 -- Can applications create new containers? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-36 -- Can applications create new containers? -- open ←
15:39:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/36
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/36 ←
15:39:25 <stevebattle> bblfish: what about issue 36
Henry Story: what about ISSUE-36 ←
15:39:28 <sergio> +1 to issue-36
Sergio Fernández: +1 to ISSUE-36 ←
15:39:30 <stevebattle> subtopic: Issue-36 Can applications create new containers?
15:39:56 <stevebattle> Arnaud: I believe the answer is Yes - but doesn't specify how it is done.
Arnaud Le Hors: I believe the answer is Yes - but doesn't specify how it is done. ←
15:40:04 <bblfish> q?
Henry Story: q? ←
15:40:26 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:40:29 <stevebattle> Arnaud: Just create a resource with the right type.
Arnaud Le Hors: Just create a resource with the right type. ←
15:40:55 <stevebattle> bblfish: Sounds reasonable. Use a POST with content of type container, or content with link type Container?
Henry Story: Sounds reasonable. Use a POST with content of type container, or content with link type Container? ←
15:41:26 <dret> i'd prefer POSTing a container representation that contains all the metadata that's required to create a container
Erik Wilde: i'd prefer POSTing a container representation that contains all the metadata that's required to create a container ←
15:41:45 <stevebattle> Arnaud: This header link type isn't in the spec right now?
Arnaud Le Hors: This header link type isn't in the spec right now? ←
15:41:49 <Zakim> -sergio
Zakim IRC Bot: -sergio ←
15:41:55 <stevebattle> SteveS: confirms
Steve Speicher: confirms ←
15:41:59 <sergio> q?
Sergio Fernández: q? ←
15:42:03 <sergio> q+
Sergio Fernández: q+ ←
15:42:10 <SteveS> I prefer POSTing a container representation, just like any other resource type
Steve Speicher: I prefer POSTing a container representation, just like any other resource type ←
15:42:11 <Arnaud> ack sergio
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sergio ←
15:42:46 <stevebattle> sergio: The issue is - Do you want to introspect the data when creating the container?
Sergio Fernández: The issue is - Do you want to introspect the data when creating the container? ←
15:43:58 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
15:44:07 <stevebattle> Arnaud: 1) The spec allows it job done 2) Make it explicit in the spec
Arnaud Le Hors: 1) The spec allows it job done 2) Make it explicit in the spec ←
15:44:19 <bblfish> ?
Henry Story: ? ←
15:44:22 <dret> what's the implementation impact of "data introspection"? you have to process and validate the incoming data against protocol errors anyway, so spotting some simple pattern to dispatch to "container creation" is not such a big deal.
Erik Wilde: what's the implementation impact of "data introspection"? you have to process and validate the incoming data against protocol errors anyway, so spotting some simple pattern to dispatch to "container creation" is not such a big deal. ←
15:44:33 <stevebattle> AndyS: It all works until you want to create a container in a container.
Andy Seaborne: It all works until you want to create a container in a container. ←
15:45:08 <Arnaud> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
15:45:08 <stevebattle> AndyS: We're approaching a solution; this is just about the details.
Andy Seaborne: We're approaching a solution; this is just about the details. ←
15:45:23 <dret> i think we shouldn't constrain conatiners to always being hierarchical. many things on the web are sets/bags of things, and not trees.
Erik Wilde: i think we shouldn't constrain conatiners to always being hierarchical. many things on the web are sets/bags of things, and not trees. ←
15:46:11 <stevebattle> SteveS: I'm thinking along the lines of no special mechanism. It's the same as for resources. Do we need to say anything - it might be helpful to introduce informative text to explain how containers are 'born'.
Steve Speicher: I'm thinking along the lines of no special mechanism. It's the same as for resources. Do we need to say anything - it might be helpful to introduce informative text to explain how containers are 'born'. ←
15:46:15 <dret> i think we should have examples around container creation. people will want to know.
Erik Wilde: i think we should have examples around container creation. people will want to know. ←
15:46:30 <dret> +1 to what SteveS said
Erik Wilde: +1 to what SteveS said ←
15:46:39 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
15:46:48 <bblfish> yes, we should clarify. It's a cool feature
Henry Story: yes, we should clarify. It's a cool feature ←
15:47:10 <stevebattle> Aranud: SHould we close, requesting editors to explain the birds & the bees?
Arnaud Le Hors: SHould we close, requesting editors to explain the birds & the bees? ←
15:47:28 <stevebattle> s/Aranud/Arnaud/
15:47:56 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
15:47:59 <stevebattle> Arnaud: Do you want to make a proposal (Henry)? (about linke headers)
Arnaud Le Hors: Do you want to make a proposal (Henry)? (about link headers) ←
15:48:07 <stevebattle> s/linke/link/
15:48:36 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: close ISSUE-36, leaving to the editors to propose some text clarifying how this is done in the spec
PROPOSED: close ISSUE-36, leaving to the editors to propose some text clarifying how this is done in the spec ←
15:48:43 <stevebattle> +1
+1 ←
15:48:53 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
15:48:55 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
15:48:58 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
15:49:12 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
15:49:13 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
15:49:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:49:17 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
15:49:20 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
15:49:21 <sergio> +1
Sergio Fernández: +1 ←
15:49:23 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
15:49:26 <dret> +1
Erik Wilde: +1 ←
15:49:47 <stevebattle> close issue-36
15:49:47 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-36 Can applications create new containers?.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-36 Can applications create new containers?. ←
<Arnaud> Resolved: close ISSUE-36, leaving to the editors to propose some text clarifying how this is done in the spec
RESOLVED: close ISSUE-36, leaving to the editors to propose some text clarifying how this is done in the spec ←
15:50:11 <stevebattle> SteveS: What about issue-33
Steve Speicher: What about ISSUE-33 ←
15:50:22 <stevebattle> subtopic: Issue-33 Pagination for non-container resources
15:51:39 <stevebattle> Arnaud: People wanted containers for the pagination mechanism. Should we move pagination to LDP Resource (Containers would inherit it).
Arnaud Le Hors: People wanted containers for the pagination mechanism. Should we move pagination to LDP Resource (Containers would inherit it). ←
15:52:11 <dret> paging is always "page by", right? how would that work when you cannot "page by member"?
Erik Wilde: paging is always "page by", right? how would that work when you cannot "page by member"? ←
15:52:36 <stevebattle> SteveS: Simply change restriction on the predicate used.
Steve Speicher: Simply change restriction on the predicate used. ←
15:52:39 <JohnArwe> @dret, are you asking "what are the units of paging"?
John Arwe: @dret, are you asking "what are the units of paging"? ←
15:52:58 <dret> yes, AnyS. hard to imagine what to even page by.
Erik Wilde: yes, AnyS. hard to imagine what to even page by. ←
15:53:08 <dret> s/Anys/AndyS/
Erik Wilde: s/Anys/AndyS/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
15:53:22 <sergio> q+
Sergio Fernández: q+ ←
15:53:39 <JohnArwe> by "triple" seems the obvious answer
John Arwe: by "triple" seems the obvious answer ←
15:53:40 <stevebattle> Arnaud: The history is amusing because we had pagination for all resources in the original. We felt it needed simplification.
Arnaud Le Hors: The history is amusing because we had pagination for all resources in the original. We felt it needed simplification. ←
15:53:43 <Arnaud> ack sergio
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sergio ←
15:54:01 <stevebattle> sergio: This rule may break general linked data principles.
Sergio Fernández: This rule may break general linked data principles. ←
15:54:20 <ericP> your factoring it out had the desired effect of making LDBP easier for people to understand and use as a starting place
Eric Prud'hommeaux: your factoring pagination out had the desired effect of making LDBP easier for people to understand and use as a starting place ←
15:54:22 <stevebattle> q+
q+ ←
15:54:29 <Arnaud> ack stevebattle
Arnaud Le Hors: ack stevebattle ←
15:54:32 <dret> paging often is a URI Template driven process with: page size, page number, or it is driven jyst by opaque URIs for prev and next. what to page by is almost always implicit. how is that specified in the generlized model?
Erik Wilde: paging often is a URI Template driven process with: page size, page number, or it is driven jyst by opaque URIs for prev and next. what to page by is almost always implicit. how is that specified in the generlized model? ←
15:54:32 <ericP> s/it out/pagination out/
15:54:33 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
15:55:12 <JohnArwe> in the spec it is opaque; just next (and optionally prev) links
John Arwe: in the spec it is opaque; just next (and optionally prev) links ←
15:55:14 <bblfish> Agree: this does not seem to break Linked Data principles
Henry Story: Agree: this does not seem to break Linked Data principles ←
15:55:15 <stevebattle> stevebattle: The Linked Data API supports pagination.
Steve Battle: The Linked Data API supports pagination. ←
15:55:34 <stevebattle> What do you page by?
What do you page by? ←
15:55:43 <AndyS> LDA does not paginate graphs - it paginates by the (list) results
Andy Seaborne: LDA does not paginate graphs - it paginates by the (list) results ←
15:55:47 <Arnaud> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
15:56:00 <AndyS> LDA is not only graphs out.
Andy Seaborne: LDA is not only graphs out. ←
15:56:01 <stevebattle> Arnaud: Page on the entire content of the resource, not a specific predicate.
Arnaud Le Hors: Page on the entire content of the resource, not a specific predicate. ←
15:56:17 <dret> you just page by triples in a pretty much random bag of triples?
Erik Wilde: you just page by triples in a pretty much random bag of triples? ←
15:56:38 <JohnArwe> I think there is a pageSize URI query parm, that's where units would arise.
John Arwe: I think there is a pageSize URI query parm, that's where units would arise. ←
15:56:46 <stevebattle> SteveS: The server is often best placed to know how to page the content.
Steve Speicher: The server is often best placed to know how to page the content. ←
15:57:25 <ericP> i'd qualify arnaud's explaination with the caveat is possible when there are some logical partitions within the data. even if it's triples with a predicate starting with a, and b, ...
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'd qualify arnaud's explaination with the caveat is possible when there are some logical partitions within the data. even if it's triples with a predicate starting with a, and b, ... ←
15:57:34 <stevebattle> Arnaud: The first and subsequent pages have different URIs so this is consistent with the model.
Arnaud Le Hors: The first and subsequent pages have different URIs so this is consistent with the model. ←
15:57:34 <ericP> dret, does that make sense to you?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: dret, does that make sense to you? ←
15:57:59 <dret> how is that going to be stable over time, when the triples are more or less randomly arranged? i must be missing something here?
Erik Wilde: how is that going to be stable over time, when the triples are more or less randomly arranged? i must be missing something here? ←
15:58:06 <bblfish> I am happy with a general mechanism
Henry Story: I am happy with a general mechanism ←
15:58:26 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: close ISSUE-33: adding pagination for non-container resources
PROPOSED: close ISSUE-33: adding pagination for non-container resources ←
15:58:33 <stevebattle> +1
+1 ←
15:58:35 <dret> ericP, i see a lot of tight coupling ot brittleness in there, but i still think i must be missing something.
Erik Wilde: ericP, i see a lot of tight coupling ot brittleness in there, but i still think i must be missing something. ←
15:58:36 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
15:58:37 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
15:58:41 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
15:58:42 <sergio> +0
Sergio Fernández: +0 ←
15:58:50 <AndyS> +0
Andy Seaborne: +0 ←
15:59:01 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
15:59:06 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
15:59:07 <dret> and ot course there's always HTTP, if you really just want to serve partitions of bigger resources. HTTP does support this natively...
Erik Wilde: and ot course there's always HTTP, if you really just want to serve partitions of bigger resources. HTTP does support this natively... ←
15:59:08 <JohnArwe> @dret, "stable" paging was server impln choice.
John Arwe: @dret, "stable" paging was server impln choice. ←
15:59:11 <AndyS> (unclear on paginating graphs - triples, entities, random?)
Andy Seaborne: (unclear on paginating graphs - triples, entities, random?) ←
15:59:11 <JohnArwe> +1
15:59:13 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
15:59:13 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
15:59:16 <dret> -1
Erik Wilde: -1 ←
15:59:20 <sergio> same than AndyS
Sergio Fernández: same than AndyS ←
15:59:26 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:59:28 <roger> sorry, too much to decide on that right now. -1
Roger Menday: sorry, too much to decide on that right now. -1 ←
15:59:31 <sergio> q+
Sergio Fernández: q+ ←
15:59:41 <ericP> q+ to propose that the next step is a use case
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to propose that the next step is a use case ←
15:59:47 <stevebattle> dret: I don't understand how this is supposed to work.
Erik Wilde: I don't understand how this is supposed to work. ←
15:59:57 <Arnaud> ack ericp
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ericp ←
15:59:57 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to propose that the next step is a use case
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to propose that the next step is a use case ←
16:00:19 <cody> +0 (kind of agree with Eric. need to see how this is useful in a scenario)
Cody Burleson: +0 (kind of agree with Eric. need to see how this is useful in a scenario) ←
16:00:24 <stevebattle> EricP: The next step should be a use-case, to ensure that we undertstand how to use pagination in a non-container.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: The next step should be a use-case, to ensure that we undertstand how to use pagination in a non-container. ←
16:00:30 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
16:00:38 <sergio> q-
Sergio Fernández: q- ←
16:00:40 <dret> if it's just serving big data, we really should look at HTTP: it can do this out of the box.
Erik Wilde: if it's just serving big data, we really should look at HTTP: it can do this out of the box. ←
16:00:40 <sergio> ok
Sergio Fernández: ok ←
16:00:47 <SteveS> If a server or app can't do paging, it don't need to
Steve Speicher: If a server or app can't do paging, it doesn't need to ←
16:00:51 <bblfish> thanks
Henry Story: thanks ←
16:00:54 <svillata> thanks
Serena Villata: thanks ←
16:00:54 <stevebattle> adjourned
adjourned ←
16:00:55 <Zakim> -roger
Zakim IRC Bot: -roger ←
16:00:57 <Zakim> -sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro ←
16:00:58 <Zakim> -bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: -bblfish ←
16:00:58 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
16:00:59 <dret> thanks everybody!
Erik Wilde: thanks everybody! ←
16:00:59 <Zakim> -Yves
Zakim IRC Bot: -Yves ←
16:00:59 <Zakim> -Ashok
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ashok ←
16:00:59 <SteveS> s/it don't/it doesn't/
16:01:00 <Zakim> -Cody
Zakim IRC Bot: -Cody ←
16:01:02 <Arnaud> meeting adjourned
Arnaud Le Hors: meeting adjourned ←
16:01:03 <Zakim> -krp
Zakim IRC Bot: -krp ←
16:01:04 <Zakim> -rgarcia
Zakim IRC Bot: -rgarcia ←
16:01:04 <Zakim> -svillata
Zakim IRC Bot: -svillata ←
16:01:05 <Zakim> -dret
Zakim IRC Bot: -dret ←
16:01:05 <Zakim> -SteveS
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveS ←
16:01:06 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:01:07 <stevebattle> Thanks Arnaud, bye
Thanks Arnaud, bye ←
16:01:08 <Zakim> -JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: -JohnArwe ←
16:01:11 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:01:15 <Zakim> -SteveBattle
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveBattle ←
16:01:16 <Zakim> -nmihindu
Zakim IRC Bot: -nmihindu ←
16:01:18 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended ←
16:01:18 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.214.537.aaaa, JohnArwe, Arnaud, TallTed, Ashok, dret, SteveS, SteveBattle, rgarcia, AndyS, Cody, roger, sergio, krp, nmihindu, Yves, bblfish, svillata, EricP,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.214.537.aaaa, JohnArwe, Arnaud, TallTed, Ashok, dret, SteveS, SteveBattle, rgarcia, AndyS, Cody, roger, sergio, krp, nmihindu, Yves, bblfish, svillata, EricP, ←
16:01:18 <Zakim> ... sandro, [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, [IPcaller] ←
Formatted by CommonScribe