Meeting Record

eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference

Minutes of 23 October 2008

Agenda

http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/TPAC2008

Present

John Sheridan, Unknown renke, Martin Mollema, Jeffrey Sonstein, Amit Parashar, Benjamin Nguyen, Vagner Diniz, Oscar Azanon Esteire

Chair

John Sheridan

Scribe

Unknown Beng, Amit Parashar, Unknown josema

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

None.

Topics

welcome and intros
Input from outside work
Use Cases Framework

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07:02:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc ←

07:02:21 <josema> zakim, this will be egov

José Alonso: zakim, this will be egov ←

07:02:21 <Zakim> ok, josema; I see T&S_EGOV()3:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, josema; I see T&S_EGOV()3:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago ←

07:03:52 <josema> trackbot, start telcon

José Alonso: trackbot, start telcon ←

07:03:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←

07:03:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be EGOV ←

07:03:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_EGOV()3:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see T&S_EGOV()3:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago ←

07:03:57 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference

07:03:57 <trackbot> Date: 23 October 2008

07:04:28 <josema> present: john, renke, martin, jeff, amit, benjamin, vagner, oscar

Scribe problem: the name 'renke' does not match any of the 36 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Amit Parashar Anne Washington Ari Schwartz Benjamin Nguyen Christopher Testa Dalila Chiadmi Ilker Karakas Jeffrey Sonstein John Sheridan John Wonderlich José Alonso Juan Rodríguez Rodríguez Katie Haritos-Shea Kevin Novak Kjetil Kjernsmo Laila Benhlima Malcolm Crompton Martin Mollema Mercedes Clark-Smith Oscar Azanon Esteire Owen Ambur Pasquale Popolizio Peter Krantz Pietro Russo Rachel Flagg Richard Murphy Rinke Hoekstra Roberto Castaldo Robin Berjon Rowan Smith Tanya Gupta Tim McMahon Tom van Engers Trond Undheim Vagner Diniz Vassilios Peristeras

07:06:34 <josema> present+ nobuo, helmut

Scribe problem: the name 'josema' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: John Sheridan Unknown renke Martin Mollema Jeffrey Sonstein Amit Parashar Benjamin Nguyen Vagner Diniz Oscar Azanon Esteire Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown josema: present+ nobuo, helmut ←

07:07:03 <josema> topic: welcome and intros

1. welcome and intros

07:07:35 <josema> [intros]

Unknown josema: [intros] ←

07:12:56 <josema> present+ ?? (Adobe, XML Security)

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Unknown josema: present+ ?? (Adobe, XML Security) ←

07:16:21 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()3:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: T&S_EGOV()3:00AM has now started ←

07:16:22 <Zakim> +Esterel

Zakim IRC Bot: +Esterel ←

07:18:40 <Beng> John : agenda ok ?

Scribe problem: the name 'Beng' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: John Sheridan Unknown renke Martin Mollema Jeffrey Sonstein Amit Parashar Benjamin Nguyen Vagner Diniz Oscar Azanon Esteire Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Beng: John : agenda ok ? ←

07:18:42 <josema> scribeNick: Beng

(Scribe set to Unknown Beng)

07:19:01 <Beng> take input from outside work and kick on with use cases at 9H45

take input from outside work and kick on with use cases at 9H45 ←

07:19:26 <Beng> the group & jose have had a number of conversations

the group & jose have had a number of conversations ←

07:19:38 <Beng> talk about semic

talk about semic ←

07:20:14 <Beng> renke to introduce

renke to introduce ←

07:20:48 <Beng> martin points out he worked with the previous project

martin points out he worked with the previous project ←

07:21:12 <Beng> agenda : http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/TPAC2008

agenda : http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/TPAC2008 ←

07:22:25 <Beng> slides will be available on wiki (?)

slides will be available on wiki (?) ←

07:26:08 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendants', josema.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendants', josema. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

07:26:13 <jeffs> zakim, who is here?

Jeffrey Sonstein: zakim, who is here? ←

07:26:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see Esterel

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Esterel ←

07:26:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see OCR, csolc, martin, john, ns, amit, jeffs, Beng, Vagner-br, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see OCR, csolc, martin, john, ns, amit, jeffs, Beng, Vagner-br, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot ←

07:32:05 <josema> topic: Input from outiside work

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

2. Input from outside work

07:32:17 <josema> s/outiside/outside

07:34:57 <josema> beng: will the asset be fixed once agreed?

Scribe problem: the name 'beng' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: John Sheridan Unknown renke Martin Mollema Jeffrey Sonstein Amit Parashar Benjamin Nguyen Vagner Diniz Oscar Azanon Esteire Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown beng: will the asset be fixed once agreed? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown josema ] ←

07:36:01 <Beng> Amit : this becomes a fcilitating body, is this your role ?

Amit : this becomes a fcilitating body, is this your role ? ←

07:36:04 <josema> renke: not fixed, the idea is not to change the asset but the connection to the asset from the Member State

Unknown renke: not fixed, the idea is not to change the asset but the connection to the asset from the Member State [ Scribe Assist by Unknown josema ] ←

07:36:22 <Beng> Renke : we have another community in ehealth

Renke : we have another community in ehealth ←

07:36:35 <Beng> they just use semic to publish the assets

they just use semic to publish the assets ←

07:37:06 <Beng> there is not just hosting, also improve the coaching

there is not just hosting, also improve the coaching ←

07:37:19 <Beng> martin : have you looked at the mothodology used by xbrl

martin : have you looked at the mothodology used by xbrl ←

07:37:37 <Beng> in particular localization

in particular localization ←

07:37:46 <Beng> renken : we use components from un/cefact

renken : we use components from un/cefact ←

07:38:39 <josema> we had a presentation yesterday about XBRL + SW at the Plenary (potential XG coming?)

Unknown josema: we had a presentation yesterday about XBRL + SW at the Plenary (potential XG coming?) ←

07:38:47 <Beng> semic is not just spread these concepts, the communities have to decide which methodology they want to use

semic is not just spread these concepts, the communities have to decide which methodology they want to use ←

07:39:01 <Beng> .. and we publish them, and advise them and indicate envisionned problems

.. and we publish them, and advise them and indicate envisionned problems ←

07:39:23 <Beng> john : for ejustice, can you explain the public policy objective this community is trying to achieve

john : for ejustice, can you explain the public policy objective this community is trying to achieve ←

07:40:03 <Beng> in the ejustice space there are 27 countries. Why do they want to share this information ?

in the ejustice space there are 27 countries. Why do they want to share this information ? ←

07:40:56 <Beng> renke : find the names of companies

renke : find the names of companies ←

07:41:33 <Beng> how can one handle the different semantics each country has to store company data

how can one handle the different semantics each country has to store company data ←

07:42:23 <Beng> martin : eservices directive effective end 2009 (?) to have information on any activity related to a municipality, there is only one point of contact where all companies can get information

martin : eservices directive effective end 2009 (?) to have information on any activity related to a municipality, there is only one point of contact where all companies can get information ←

07:42:46 <Beng> the gov organisation must know if the company really exists in order to validate giving them information

the gov organisation must know if the company really exists in order to validate giving them information ←

07:43:18 <Beng> renke : the solution from ejustice can be reused in another context

renke : the solution from ejustice can be reused in another context ←

07:43:51 <Beng> ... collect assets and modelize them, build relations between concepts and rules

... collect assets and modelize them, build relations between concepts and rules ←

07:44:37 <Beng> .. also a lot of communication, not just technical.

.. also a lot of communication, not just technical. ←

07:48:46 <Beng> martin : explain how europe works for people from other countries

martin : explain how europe works for people from other countries ←

07:49:00 <Beng> john : generalize out

john : generalize out ←

07:49:13 <Beng> .. there is a set of ppolicy drivers that want to improve the flow of judicial information

.. there is a set of ppolicy drivers that want to improve the flow of judicial information ←

07:49:33 <Beng> i.e., get a parking ticket in france and have to pay it in UK

i.e., get a parking ticket in france and have to pay it in UK ←

07:49:48 <Beng> ... we need information sharing

... we need information sharing ←

07:50:03 <Beng> ... problem : standardazing the judicial system is difficult

... problem : standardazing the judicial system is difficult ←

07:50:15 <Beng> ... other route : achieve the policy outcome without going into massive standardization

... other route : achieve the policy outcome without going into massive standardization ←

07:50:30 <Beng> jeff : are there legal barriers to exchange information accross borders

jeff : are there legal barriers to exchange information accross borders ←

07:50:33 <Beng> all : yes

all : yes ←

07:50:54 <Beng> martin : principle : only do centrally what has to be done centrally

martin : subsidiarity principle : only do centrally what has to be done centrally ←

07:51:03 <Beng> .. respect what is already done at local level

.. respect what is already done at local level ←

07:51:11 <Beng> ... can only be change on a volontary basis

... can only be change on a volontary basis ←

07:51:22 <josema> s/principle/subsidiarity principle

07:51:29 <Beng> ... europe can not impose anything locally except if its done everywhere

... europe can not impose anything locally except if its done everywhere ←

07:51:52 <Beng> ... semic approach : each of the 27 members states is a black box

... semic approach : each of the 27 members states is a black box ←

07:52:09 <Beng> Renke : 5200 different sources just in Germany

Renke : 5200 different sources just in Germany ←

07:52:37 <Beng> ... impossible to build a standard in all issues

... impossible to build a standard in all issues ←

07:52:55 <Beng> john : this is an instance of goverments solving G2G information via government action

john : this is an instance of goverments solving G2G information via government action ←

07:53:16 <josema> Chair: john

07:53:24 <josema> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/TPAC2008

07:53:36 <Beng> ... govs have an objective they are not outsourcing

... govs have an objective they are not outsourcing ←

07:53:54 <Beng> ... need to achieve some sort of degree of information sharing between entities without imposing a degree of standardization

... need to achieve some sort of degree of information sharing between entities without imposing a degree of standardization ←

07:54:08 <Beng> ... and finaly need a mechanism for interoperability : in europe this is Semic

... and finaly need a mechanism for interoperability : in europe this is Semic ←

07:54:22 <Beng> Martin : in socia l security

Martin : in socia l security ←

07:54:50 <Beng> (this was another example)

(this was another example) ←

07:55:30 <Beng> amit : intereaction between superannuation

amit : intereaction between superannuation ←

07:55:40 <Beng> (retirement fund)

(retirement fund) ←

07:56:01 <Beng> john : every nation has a different regime in europe

john : every nation has a different regime in europe ←

07:56:44 <Beng> ... this is more interoperability than standardization

... this is more interoperability than standardization ←

07:57:06 <Beng> ... q : why chose interoperability over standardization or outsourcing

... q : why chose interoperability over standardization or outsourcing ←

07:57:34 <Beng> Oscar : in the long run, if you have common assets, it is easier to achieve internal interoperability and external also

Oscar : in the long run, if you have common assets, it is easier to achieve internal interoperability and external also ←

07:57:59 <Beng> ... stick to what can be done in 12/18 months

... stick to what can be done in 12/18 months ←

07:58:28 <Beng> john : from  apoliticy of sociological point of view standardizaion can be viewed as bad

john : from apoliticy of sociological point of view standardizaion can be viewed as bad ←

07:59:01 <Beng> Jeff : how hard to agree on ontologies

Jeff : how hard to agree on ontologies ←

07:59:16 <Beng> martin : difficult

martin : difficult ←

07:59:28 <Beng> john  : tough when there are deep differences

john : tough when there are deep differences ←

07:59:33 <Beng> i.e., common law vs civil law

i.e., common law vs civil law ←

07:59:59 <Beng> martin : semantic interoperability  : common ontology but not an ontology shared by all organizations

martin : semantic interoperability : common ontology but not an ontology shared by all organizations ←

08:00:47 <Beng> renke : maybe having a large ontology is good, but we wanted to start with practical examples

renke : maybe having a large ontology is good, but we wanted to start with practical examples ←

08:01:09 <Beng> .. there are already problems inside a state

.. there are already problems inside a state ←

08:01:19 <Beng> .. italy, germany : problem of the concept of name

.. italy, germany : problem of the concept of name ←

08:01:40 <Beng> ... find the solution on specific problems, such as "the name concept"

... find the solution on specific problems, such as "the name concept" ←

08:02:04 <Beng> amit : look at link on IRC

amit : look at link on IRC ←

08:02:24 <Beng> www.agimo.gov.au & www.govdex.gov.au

www.agimo.gov.au & www.govdex.gov.au ←

08:02:43 <Beng> contact brian stonebridge (?)

contact brian stonebridge ←

08:03:02 <josema> s/(?)/

08:03:26 <Beng> john : the specifics lie in the data

john : the specifics lie in the data ←

08:03:47 <Beng> ... do not model the data, look at "note" fields

... do not model the data, look at "note" fields ←

08:04:01 <Beng> .. its easier to construct the ontology after that

.. its easier to construct the ontology after that ←

08:04:13 <Beng> ... viable approach in a data rich environment such as ours

... viable approach in a data rich environment such as ours ←

08:04:26 <josema> forensics on existing data... interesting

Unknown josema: forensics on existing data... interesting ←

08:04:46 <Beng> amit : we use SAP and people have found ways of cheating it already

amit : we use SAP and people have found ways of cheating it already ←

08:05:10 <Beng> john : as assets are identified and constructed to capture some part of the process that led to their creating

john : as assets are identified and constructed to capture some part of the process that led to their creating ←

08:05:13 <Beng> creation

creation ←

08:05:32 <Beng> .. was it analysis of the data or of the model

.. was it analysis of the data or of the model ←

08:06:00 <Beng> Renke : 2 different views

Renke : 2 different views ←

08:06:07 <Beng> 1) how to solve technical problems

1) how to solve technical problems ←

08:06:20 <Beng> 2) look at what we are doing to find a way of improving the process

2) look at what we are doing to find a way of improving the process ←

08:06:30 <Beng> ... I can report in a 3/4 months

... I can report in a 3/4 months ←

08:06:57 <Beng> martin : see where a bottom up method is useful when creating an ontology

martin : see where a bottom up method is useful when creating an ontology ←

08:07:07 <Beng> ... and find where/when a top down approach is prefered

... and find where/when a top down approach is prefered ←

08:07:14 <Beng> ... make a comparison and make a decision tree

... make a comparison and make a decision tree ←

08:07:45 <Beng> john : interesting discussion

john : interesting discussion ←

08:08:01 <Beng> jeff : is there any citizen resistance to information sharing ?

jeff : is there any citizen resistance to information sharing ? ←

08:08:10 <Beng> .. and how is this dealt with

.. and how is this dealt with ←

08:08:44 <Beng> renke : maybe noone really knows what is happening

renke : maybe noone really knows what is happening ←

08:08:56 <Beng> john : very important in the UK

john : very important in the UK ←

08:09:06 <Beng> public trust is low at the moment

public trust is low at the moment ←

08:09:19 <Beng> due to data loss

due to data loss ←

08:09:40 <Beng> problems with companies contracted to resolve the issues

problems with companies contracted to resolve the issues ←

08:09:48 <Beng> ... data is not secure

... data is not secure ←

08:09:58 <Beng> ... 3 reasons to think about sharing information

... 3 reasons to think about sharing information ←

08:10:14 <Beng> identified in the UK Wallport/Thomas review

identified in the UK Wallport/Thomas review ←

08:10:40 <Beng> 1) requirement from the social sciences community for longitudinal data sets

1) requirement from the social sciences community for longitudinal data sets ←

08:11:02 <Beng> ... vast amount of personnal information, to be used to understand what is happening in your society

... vast amount of personnal information, to be used to understand what is happening in your society ←

08:11:07 <Beng> ... possible to anonymize

... possible to anonymize ←

08:11:23 <Beng> 2) bring information together to deliver a better service

2) bring information together to deliver a better service ←

08:12:11 <Beng> ... a citizen might want the data access level to change during time i.e., just after getting knocked over by a car

... a citizen might want the data access level to change during time i.e., just after getting knocked over by a car ←

08:12:14 <Beng> 3) national security

3) national security ←

08:12:22 <Beng> ... consent is no longer needed

... consent is no longer needed ←

08:12:45 <Beng> ... bill going through parliament to keep all emails ever sent

... bill going through parliament to keep all emails ever sent ←

08:13:41 <Beng> In the web context how can one achieve a degree of data sharing ?

In the web context how can one achieve a degree of data sharing ? ←

08:13:57 <Beng> Anonymized data is less problematic.

Anonymized data is less problematic. ←

08:15:25 <josema> beng: working on PDS, Personal Data Server

Unknown beng: working on PDS, Personal Data Server [ Scribe Assist by Unknown josema ] ←

08:15:45 <josema> ... secured usb with personal information that gets anonymized

Unknown josema: ... secured usb with personal information that gets anonymized ←

08:15:57 <josema> ... but you need some trust identity

Unknown josema: ... but you need some trust identity ←

08:16:09 <josema> ... question: is there a way for an individual to retain the info

Unknown josema: ... question: is there a way for an individual to retain the info ←

08:16:22 <josema> ... in order to send it as needed while preserving privacy?

Unknown josema: ... in order to send it as needed while preserving privacy? ←

08:16:58 <Beng> john : use case framework next

john : use case framework next ←

08:16:58 <josema> topic: Use Cases Framework

3. Use Cases Framework

08:17:19 <Beng> ... how do we address the vast number of issues in the egov space

... how do we address the vast number of issues in the egov space ←

08:17:34 <Beng> .. what framework to put forward to look at the use cases ?

.. what framework to put forward to look at the use cases ? ←

08:18:32 <Beng> ... motivation about the simple approach

... motivation about the simple approach ←

08:18:50 <Beng> ... governments role on the web : 3 main areas

... governments role on the web : 3 main areas ←

08:18:59 <Beng> this seems to be general everywhere

this seems to be general everywhere ←

08:19:08 <Beng> 1) using the web as a mechanism for delivering public services

1) using the web as a mechanism for delivering public services ←

08:19:29 <Beng> ... historically : in the 90's not sure what to do, and little by little more services have been added

... historically : in the 90's not sure what to do, and little by little more services have been added ←

08:19:54 <Beng> ... there was no real interaction with the citizen

... there was no real interaction with the citizen ←

08:20:08 <Beng> ... the state is simply throwing out services with various levels of success

... the state is simply throwing out services with various levels of success ←

08:20:25 <Beng> 2) engage with people

2) engage with people ←

08:20:47 <Beng> ... rise of social computing, creation of big communities and patterns of behaviour between these communities

... rise of social computing, creation of big communities and patterns of behaviour between these communities ←

08:20:56 <Beng> i.e., parenting advice

i.e., parenting advice ←

08:21:35 <Beng> ... if one question is "how to interact with this part of the government service"

... if one question is "how to interact with this part of the government service" ←

08:21:39 <josema> see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2008Oct/0034

Unknown josema: see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2008Oct/0034 ←

08:21:53 <Beng> ... shouldn't the person responsible of this service also be present in this forum

... shouldn't the person responsible of this service also be present in this forum ←

08:22:21 <Beng> ... design public services, receive comments and improve them

... design public services, receive comments and improve them ←

08:22:56 <Beng> ... politician get excited by the management of people's experience of their use of services

... politician get excited by the management of people's experience of their use of services ←

08:23:44 <Beng> ... citizen 2 citizen & citizen 2 gov interacction

... citizen 2 citizen & citizen 2 gov interacction ←

08:23:57 <Beng> 3) governments sit on a heap of data

3) governments sit on a heap of data ←

08:24:03 <Beng> ... this is a monopoly

... this is a monopoly ←

08:24:40 <Beng> ... govs can send this information in order to create new services

... govs can send this information in order to create new services ←

08:24:56 <Beng> ... question is : what is the role of the state as a "data provider"

... question is : what is the role of the state as a "data provider" ←

08:25:38 <Beng> amit : this is focused on gov 2 citizen

amit : this is focused on gov 2 citizen ←

08:25:53 <Beng> ... this has policy implications that need to be driven top down

... this has policy implications that need to be driven top down ←

08:26:09 <Beng> ... the G2G use cases are also challenging

... the G2G use cases are also challenging ←

08:26:27 <Beng> ... interoperability at all levels : city to state, etc

... interoperability at all levels : city to state, etc ←

08:27:12 <Beng> ... in AUS, interested in looking at what has happened around the world

... in AUS, interested in looking at what has happened around the world ←

08:27:29 <Beng> vagner : agree with the 3 areas in general but most govs are only in the first area

vagner : agree with the 3 areas in general but most govs are only in the first area ←

08:27:41 <Beng> ... few in 2nd area, and 3rd is only a possibility !

... few in 2nd area, and 3rd is only a possibility ! ←

08:28:10 <Beng> ... we need to be ahead on technology, so need to find use cases in 2nd and 3rd, maybe even focus on them

... we need to be ahead on technology, so need to find use cases in 2nd and 3rd, maybe even focus on them ←

08:28:28 <Beng> john : govs are better at 1 and G2G

john : govs are better at 1 and G2G ←

08:28:36 <Beng> amit : disagree

amit : disagree ←

08:28:45 <Beng> ... people are interested but it is not a success

... people are interested but it is not a success ←

08:28:53 <jeffs> +1

Jeffrey Sonstein: +1 ←

08:29:11 <Beng> ... most gov departments are hierarchical

... most gov departments are hierarchical ←

08:29:11 <john> ?q

John Sheridan: ?q ←

08:29:18 <josema> q?

Unknown josema: q? ←

08:29:35 <john> thanks jose

John Sheridan: thanks jose ←

08:30:01 <Beng> ... a lot of innovation needs to happen in order to seen interoperability appear

... a lot of innovation needs to happen in order to seen interoperability appear ←

08:30:09 <Beng> martin : add to the 1st use case

martin : add to the 1st use case ←

08:30:22 <Beng> ... there is no real technical obstacle to impementation

... there is no real technical obstacle to impementation ←

08:31:22 <Beng> ... govs want to move forwards, they start at technical point, but to move on to a larger scale project, this creates a conflict betwee, technicians and lawyers

... govs want to move forwards, they start at technical point, but to move on to a larger scale project, this creates a conflict betwee, technicians and lawyers ←

08:31:59 <Beng> ... when making standards mandatory : 1- each aspect of the spec is translated into legal terms

... when making standards mandatory : 1- each aspect of the spec is translated into legal terms ←

08:32:14 <Beng> 2- say these standards are mandatory and then add them to the law

2- say these standards are mandatory and then add them to the law ←

08:32:30 <Beng> result : it is clear neither from legal nor technical point of view what needs to be done

result : it is clear neither from legal nor technical point of view what needs to be done ←

08:32:41 <Beng> proposition  : have an intermediate level

proposition : have an intermediate level ←

08:32:53 <Beng> divide into technical and non technical issues

divide into technical and non technical issues ←

08:33:01 <Beng> creating such a model would be beneficial

creating such a model would be beneficial ←

08:33:35 <Beng> john : break

john : break ←

08:33:46 <josema> RRSAgent, draft minutes

Unknown josema: RRSAgent, draft minutes ←

08:33:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema ←

09:11:09 <josema> scribeNick: amit_

(No events recorded for 37 minutes)

(Scribe set to Amit Parashar)

09:11:30 <amit_> John: adding government to government as fourth strand

John Sheridan: adding government to government as fourth strand ←

09:11:56 <amit_> ... engage is new, enable is also new, not much activity in these areas in terms of what gov's do right now

... engage is new, enable is also new, not much activity in these areas in terms of what gov's do right now ←

09:12:31 <amit_> ... the main focus is develop use cases in these two days, and need to figure out what the use cases will be for

... the main focus is develop use cases in these two days, and need to figure out what the use cases will be for ←

09:12:55 <amit_> ... how detail the use cases need to be? we need to capture successes and failures....

... how detail the use cases need to be? we need to capture successes and failures.... ←

09:13:03 <josema> scribe+ amit

Unknown josema: scribe+ amit ←

09:13:46 <amit_> ... how do we capture things that have happen, or new things that few people have implemented?

... how do we capture things that have happen, or new things that few people have implemented? ←

09:15:00 <josema> +1 to identify the target audience

Unknown josema: +1 to identify the target audience ←

09:15:18 <john> q?

John Sheridan: q? ←

09:15:20 <amit_> oscar: we need to identify target audience and consumers of information, discuss what we are going to produce as a group and what they are going to use the products (outputs of the group) for....

Oscar Azanon Esteire: we need to identify target audience and consumers of information, discuss what we are going to produce as a group and what they are going to use the products (outputs of the group) for.... ←

09:15:37 <amit_> john: who is the audience?

John Sheridan: who is the audience? ←

09:16:10 <jeffs> q+

Jeffrey Sonstein: q+ ←

09:16:13 <amit_> ... our audience is primarily working in gov and also people who are working in gov projects

... our audience is primarily working in gov and also people who are working in gov projects ←

09:17:14 <amit_> ... so that they lead the web to its full potential... assume that these people will not be aware of technology knowledge, helping gov people making better decisions about the web...

... so that they lead the web to its full potential... assume that these people will not be aware of technology knowledge, helping gov people making better decisions about the web... ←

09:17:35 <amit_> martin: policy makers, legal expert, political, who are they?

Martin Mollema: policy makers, legal expert, political, who are they? ←

09:18:15 <amit_> oscar: need to discern between non-tech as well as tech people...

Oscar Azanon Esteire: need to discern between non-tech as well as tech people... ←

09:19:00 <amit_> john: policy makers (including web policy makers)  we should target them...

John Sheridan: policy makers (including web policy makers) we should target them... ←

09:19:20 <josema> q?

Unknown josema: q? ←

09:19:27 <josema> ack jef

Unknown josema: ack jef ←

09:20:18 <amit_> jeff: there is a second audience, ie citizens,

Jeffrey Sonstein: there is a second audience, ie citizens, ←

09:20:39 <amit_> jeff: we need to focus on citizens being able to check up their own personal data that the gov holds...

Jeffrey Sonstein: we need to focus on citizens being able to check up their own personal data that the gov holds... ←

09:21:01 <amit_> jeff: this has long run implications for society...

Jeffrey Sonstein: this has long run implications for society... ←

09:22:18 <amit_> oscar: need to distinguish between local, regional and national level, and should we have targeted messages for each?

Oscar Azanon Esteire: need to distinguish between local, regional and national level, and should we have targeted messages for each? ←

09:22:35 <amit_> q+

q+ ←

09:22:49 <john> ack amit_

John Sheridan: ack amit_ ←

09:22:50 <amit_> ack amit

ack amit ←

09:23:42 <amit_> beng: is it about data correction or is it about citizen having impact on gov policy

Unknown beng: is it about data correction or is it about citizen having impact on gov policy ←

09:23:46 <amit_> jeff: both

Jeffrey Sonstein: both ←

09:24:06 <amit_> martin: who owns the information about you? are you or the gov the owner?

Martin Mollema: who owns the information about you? are you or the gov the owner? ←

09:24:27 <amit_> oscar: there is also statistical information, eg demographics...

Oscar Azanon Esteire: there is also statistical information, eg demographics... ←

09:24:58 <josema> zakim, klaus has just arrived in esterel

Unknown josema: zakim, klaus has just arrived in esterel ←

09:24:58 <Zakim> +klaus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +klaus; got it ←

09:25:25 <amit_> beng: who owns the data? with a long example that i cant capture

Unknown beng: who owns the data? with a long example that i cant capture ←

09:26:29 <amit_> martin: if one has registries and information is being stored, and one needs to use that information, then from the perspective of both gov and citizen, that this information has updated and managed for it's life....

Martin Mollema: if one has registries and information is being stored, and one needs to use that information, then from the perspective of both gov and citizen, that this information has updated and managed for it's life.... ←

09:26:38 <amit_> ... through technology and process

... through technology and process ←

09:27:51 <amit_> john: there are many catagories, citizen to gov, gov to citizen, gov to gov, we should try and capture one of each of those in our use cases, hence giving us a broad range of unique problems...

John Sheridan: there are many categories, citizen to gov, gov to citizen, gov to gov, we should try and capture one of each of those in our use cases, hence giving us a broad range of unique problems... ←

09:28:55 <josema> s/catagories/categories

09:28:57 <amit_> martin: there are cases where the gov might be involved or where the community will not be wanted...

Martin Mollema: there are cases where the gov might be involved or where the community will not be wanted... ←

09:29:24 <amit_> john: back to audiences...

John Sheridan: back to audiences... ←

09:30:15 <amit_> ... we have different types of audiences, for each of the above areas...  do these people interact or are they a long way away?

... we have different types of audiences, for each of the above areas... do these people interact or are they a long way away? ←

09:30:46 <amit_> ... there are policy people and practioners in each area... do we focus both?

... there are policy people and practioners in each area... do we focus both? ←

09:31:31 <josema> amit: both, in my experience setting up and SDI I had to communicate to both communities

Amit Parashar: both, in my experience setting up and Special Data Infrastucture (SDI) I had to communicate to both communities [ Scribe Assist by Unknown josema ] ←

09:32:07 <josema> s/SDI/Special Data Infrastucture (SDI)

09:32:11 <john> q?

John Sheridan: q? ←

09:32:37 <josema> ... in Australia we have the Office of the CIO, which has a board where all

Unknown josema: ... in Australia we have the Office of the CIO, which has a board where all ←

09:32:41 <josema> ... gov orgs come and meet

Unknown josema: ... gov orgs come and meet ←

09:32:55 <josema> ... type of authority we should target

Unknown josema: ... type of authority we should target? ←

09:33:05 <josema> s/target/target?

09:33:24 <josema> ... then we have AGIMO, sets up technology policy, standards, etc.

Unknown josema: ... then we have AGIMO, sets up technology policy, standards, etc. ←

09:33:28 <josema> ... also to be considered

Unknown josema: ... also to be considered ←

09:33:57 <josema> ... Web is majority component, eGov is broader, they do more than Web wrt technology

Unknown josema: ... Web is majority component, eGov is broader, they do more than Web wrt technology ←

09:34:30 <josema> martin: is Web goal or means?

Martin Mollema: is Web goal or means? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown josema ] ←

09:34:49 <josema> ... eGov defines more integration of Services than Web alone

Unknown josema: ... eGov defines more integration of Services than Web alone ←

09:35:33 <amit_> oscar: provide case studies to policy makers...

Oscar Azanon Esteire: provide case studies to policy makers... ←

09:36:17 <amit_> oscar: pick case studies at the technical level, and then provide methods, standards and pro's and cons about standards

Oscar Azanon Esteire: pick case studies at the technical level, and then provide methods, standards and pro's and cons about standards ←

09:36:49 <amit_> ... also provide areas where new work in standards is required...

... also provide areas where new work in standards is required... ←

09:37:23 <josema> now that we discuss about it, I have to remind you of charter scope: "The eGovernment Interest Group (eGov IG) is designed as a forum to support researchers, developers, solution providers, and users of government services that use the Web as the delivery channel.

Unknown josema: now that we discuss about it, I have to remind you of charter scope: "The eGovernment Interest Group (eGov IG) is designed as a forum to support researchers, developers, solution providers, and users of government services that use the Web as the delivery channel." ←

09:37:53 <josema> amit: standards "per se" is not enough, how do I make them useful for a given government?

Amit Parashar: standards "per se" is not enough, how do I make them useful for a given government? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown josema ] ←

09:38:34 <amit_> oscar: need information on how to coordinate between standards...

Oscar Azanon Esteire: need information on how to coordinate between standards... ←

09:38:39 <josema> s/channel./channel."

09:39:04 <josema> q+

Unknown josema: q+ ←

09:39:14 <john> ack josema

John Sheridan: ack josema ←

09:39:20 <amit_> oscar: we need to highlight scenarios and the use of standards...

Oscar Azanon Esteire: we need to highlight scenarios and the use of standards... ←

09:40:29 <amit_> josema: points to the e-gov standards...

Unknown josema: points to the e-gov standards... ←

09:41:03 <amit_> ... gov does not list of standard, but they way they should integrate them...

... gov does not need a list of standards, but they way they should integrate them... ←

09:41:25 <josema> s/not/not need a

09:41:33 <josema> s/standard/standards

09:42:17 <amit_> oscar: perhaps we can focus our work with a usecase format applied here... and then demonstrate how standards satisfy the usecase and also problems with implementation

Oscar Azanon Esteire: perhaps we can focus our work with a usecase format applied here... and then demonstrate how standards satisfy the usecase and also problems with implementation ←

09:43:00 <amit_> martin: what about trying to focus on the migration to WCAG 2?

Martin Mollema: what about trying to focus on the migration to WCAG 2? ←

09:43:58 <amit_> ... it's very difficult to understand why WCAG 2 is the way it is...

... it's very difficult to understand why WCAG 2 is the way it is... ←

09:44:31 <josema> amit: my opinion as former developer, I only want a superficial knowledge

Amit Parashar: my opinion as former developer, I only want a superficial knowledge [ Scribe Assist by Unknown josema ] ←

09:44:42 <josema> ... not why a Group made a specific decision

Unknown josema: ... not why a Group made a specific decision ←

09:45:35 <amit_> josema: the idea behind this group is to identify egov specific issues and then coordinate with other W3C groups to improve other outputs...

Unknown josema: the idea behind this group is to identify egov specific issues and then coordinate with other W3C groups to improve other outputs... ←

09:45:42 <amit_> ... eg WCAG 2

... eg WCAG 2 ←

09:46:50 <amit_> rinke: agrees with josema, an example is SEMIC's interest and influence W3C standards via this IG

Unknown renke: agrees with josema, an example is SEMIC's interest and influence W3C standards via this IG ←

09:47:38 <amit_> josema: this is a better process, and something that W3C is geared to do...

Unknown josema: this is a better process, and something that W3C is geared to do... ←

09:48:08 <josema> s/rinke/renke

09:48:45 <jeffs> q+

Jeffrey Sonstein: q+ ←

09:48:47 <amit_> john: do we try and construct usecases centric to egov or most digestable to w3c?

John Sheridan: do we try and construct usecases centric to egov or most digestable to w3c? ←

09:50:28 <amit_> josema: we need to focus on egov use cases...

Unknown josema: we need to focus on egov use cases... ←

09:51:12 <amit_> john: which comes back to audiences... egov/web policy makers, practitioners and w3c people

John Sheridan: which comes back to audiences... egov/web policy makers, practitioners and w3c people ←

09:51:42 <amit_> ... do we need to complete the loop between all three?

... do we need to complete the loop between all three? ←

09:51:45 <john> ack jeffs

John Sheridan: ack jeffs ←

09:53:10 <amit_> jeff:  we are talking about process, one way to do this is to minimise discussing thing groups, and focus on what groups things that we should focus on

Jeffrey Sonstein: we are talking about process, one way to do this is to minimise discussing thing groups, and focus on what groupsthinks that we should focus on ←

09:53:30 <amit_> s/ things/thinks

09:54:43 <amit_> john: this is helpful, it also means that the use cases that we constructed on our own knowledge and understanding, rather than abstract problems...

John Sheridan: this is helpful, it also means that the use cases that we constructed on our own knowledge and understanding, rather than abstract problems... ←

09:54:48 <josema> q?

Unknown josema: q? ←

09:55:39 <amit_> vagner: concerned about framework, we need to be concerned about what makes this group unique

Vagner Diniz: concerned about framework, we need to be concerned about what makes this group unique ←

09:56:20 <amit_> amit: that brings us to usecases..

Amit Parashar: that brings us to usecases.. ←

09:56:24 <amit_> oops

oops ←

09:56:26 <Vagner-br> list of some relevant observatories in Portuguese http://www.observe.org.br/observegov/Default.aspx?idPagina=6330

Scribe problem: the name 'Vagner-br' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: John Sheridan Unknown renke Martin Mollema Jeffrey Sonstein Amit Parashar Benjamin Nguyen Vagner Diniz Oscar Azanon Esteire Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Vagner-br: list of some relevant observatories in Portuguese http://www.observe.org.br/observegov/Default.aspx?idPagina=6330 ←

09:56:58 <amit_> oscar: we need to understand the deliverables are and by when they will be required...

Oscar Azanon Esteire: we need to understand the deliverables are and by when they will be required... ←

09:57:23 <amit_> ... we need as a group to agree on scope

... we need as a group to agree on scope ←

09:58:08 <amit_> josema: lets focus on developing usecases... some real examples...

Unknown josema: lets focus on developing usecases... some real examples... ←

09:58:14 <Beng> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Use_Cases

Unknown Beng: http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Use_Cases ←

09:59:39 <amit_> ... persistence use case... gov publishes, URI's, etc, and then something may get lost due to change in CMS or some tech change

... persistence use case... gov publishes, URI's, etc, and then something may get lost due to change in CMS or some tech change ←

10:00:56 <amit_> john: in the record of Parliamentary proceeding in the UK, only 50% of the of the questions and answers posed are working... (ie hansard)

John Sheridan: in the record of Parliamentary proceeding in the UK, only 50% of the of the questions and answers posed are working... (ie hansard) ←

10:01:33 <amit_> ... ie the links that document the Q/A of parliament...

... ie the links that document the Q/A of parliament... ←

10:02:31 <amit_> ... gov and non-gov citations persistency is about the same, ie gov is doing no better...

... gov and non-gov citations persistency is about the same, ie gov is doing no better... ←

10:04:10 <amit_> ... in 2005 UK gov tested URL references in hansard, and more failed than worked... so persistence is a problem...

... in 2005 UK gov tested URL references in hansard, and more failed than worked... so persistence is a problem... ←

10:07:23 <amit_> ... and rate of citations is increasing, and this happens because, 1. new CMS, 2. structure of gov is not stable ie departments changing url all the time, aggregation and dis-aggregation,  at all levels of gov, 3. either a change of minister or political adminsitration....  and political influence to remove and show information....

... and rate of citations is increasing, and this happens because, 1. new CMS, 2. structure of gov is not stable ie departments changing url all the time, aggregation and dis-aggregation, at all levels of gov, 3. either a change of minister or political adminsitration.... and political influence to remove and show information.... ←

10:08:58 <amit_> martin: this is a general usecase applicable to many areas of work...

Martin Mollema: this is a general usecase applicable to many areas of work... ←

10:09:35 <john> q?

John Sheridan: q? ←

10:09:43 <josema> amit: maybe the focus should be on provenance of information, and persistence

Amit Parashar: maybe the focus should be on provenance of information, and persistence [ Scribe Assist by Unknown josema ] ←

10:10:12 <amit_> martin: provenance, temporal and persistance of web information from government

Martin Mollema: provenance, temporal and persistance of web information from government (consistency) ←

10:10:41 <josema> s/government/government (consistency)

10:11:19 <jeffs> q+

Jeffrey Sonstein: q+ ←

10:13:38 <amit_> john: gov is irritated by the broken link problem... and we have a web archiving tool kit, that can be archived centrally. but we did not know what web sites we had... but even getting access to web sites does not help in understanding who own the web sites... we ramped up the archiving and enabled a push mechanism...

John Sheridan: gov is irritated by the broken link problem... and we have a web archiving tool kit, that can be archived centrally. but we did not know what web sites we had... but even getting access to web sites does not help in understanding who own the web sites... we ramped up the archiving and enabled a push mechanism... ←

10:15:10 <amit_> ... and we mandated a behaviour, when someone requests a web resource, the user can be served the latest version on the department web site or to the uk gov archive... this was the only way solve the problem centrally...

... and we mandated a behaviour, when someone requests a web resource, the user can be served the latest version on the department web site or to the uk gov archive... this was the only way solve the problem centrally... ←

10:15:41 <amit_> ... allowing gov web people to play fast and loose, and let them do what they needed...

... allowing gov web people to play fast and loose, and let them do what they needed... ←

10:16:06 <amit_> ... using 301 was a great idea...ie resource has permanently moved...

... using 301 was a great idea...ie resource has permanently moved... ←

10:16:32 <amit_> ... costing UK gov 500,000 Pounds per annum...

... costing UK gov 500,000 Pounds per annum... ←

10:16:58 <amit_> ... archived on quarterly basis or an important event basis...

... archived on quarterly basis or an important event basis... ←

10:17:10 <josema> q?

Unknown josema: q? ←

10:17:50 <amit_> ... also using sitemaps protocol to improve discovery of information on archive (www.sitemaps.org)

... also using sitemaps protocol to improve discovery of information on archive (www.sitemaps.org) ←

10:17:57 <josema> ack j

Unknown josema: ack j ←

10:18:37 <amit_> jeff: perhaps we should focus on good practice as well as standards... not just standards...

Jeffrey Sonstein: perhaps we should focus on good practice as well as standards... not just standards... ←

10:19:21 <amit_> ... using this case study and explain archival practice... in gov...

... using this case study and explain archival practice... in gov... ←

10:20:31 <amit_> jeff: people are trying to do a good job, but unable to do this ... due to lack of knowledge...

Jeffrey Sonstein: people are trying to do a good job, but unable to do this ... due to lack of knowledge... ←

10:20:53 <amit_> john: example is accessible web sites...

John Sheridan: example is accessible web sites... ←

10:21:29 <amit_> ... people developing new accessible web sites and throwing the old inaccessible one away...

... people developing new accessible web sites and throwing the old inaccessible one away... ←

10:22:55 <amit_> jeff: take the 4 interaction models, gov 2 gov, gov 2 citizen, citizen 2 citizen, citizen to gov

Jeffrey Sonstein: take the 4 interaction models, gov 2 gov, gov 2 citizen, citizen 2 citizen, citizen to gov ←

10:23:18 <amit_> ... and develop use cases in these areas

... and develop use cases in these areas ←

10:24:37 <john> q?

John Sheridan: q? ←

10:25:22 <amit_> martin: develop usecases and then approach other W3C working groups for feedback and comment...

Martin Mollema: develop usecases and then approach other W3C working groups for feedback and comment... ←

10:26:14 <amit_> john: we need to influence w3c of the realities of gov and how they are continously changing, and not part of the cool URI thinking...

John Sheridan: we need to influence w3c of the realities of gov and how they are continously changing, and not part of the cool URI thinking... ←

10:27:18 <amit_> john: we have 4 areas, and articulate simple minded ambitions of gov, this needs to given within the business context and the public policy context...

John Sheridan: we have 4 areas, and articulate simple minded ambitions of gov, this needs to given within the business context and the public policy context... ←

10:27:42 <amit_> ... and develop usecases and good practice for policy and practioners within gov....

... and develop usecases and good practice for policy and practioners within gov.... ←

10:27:57 <amit_> ... and on this side influence W3C working groups...

... and on this side influence W3C working groups... ←

10:28:43 <josema> amit: good summary

Amit Parashar: good summary [ Scribe Assist by Unknown josema ] ←

11:35:13 <josema> RRSAgent, pointer?

(No events recorded for 66 minutes)

Unknown josema: RRSAgent, pointer? ←

11:35:13 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc#T11-35-13

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc#T11-35-13 ←

11:44:04 <josema> zakim, who's here?

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Unknown josema: zakim, who's here? ←

11:44:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Esterel

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Esterel ←

11:44:05 <Zakim> Esterel has klaus

Zakim IRC Bot: Esterel has klaus ←

11:44:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see OCR, amit, martin, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see OCR, amit, martin, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot ←

11:44:46 <josema> zakim, klaus left esterel

Unknown josema: zakim, klaus left esterel ←

11:44:46 <Zakim> -klaus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: -klaus; got it ←

11:58:02 <josema> RRSAgent, draft minutes

(No events recorded for 13 minutes)

Unknown josema: RRSAgent, draft minutes ←

11:58:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema ←

12:03:00 <josema> [starting after lunch]

Unknown josema: [starting after lunch] ←

12:03:08 <josema> scribeNick:josema

(Scribe set to Unknown josema)

12:03:23 <josema> john: recap

John Sheridan: recap ←

12:03:39 <josema> ... four different areas mentioned before in terms of interactions

... four different areas mentioned before in terms of interactions ←

12:04:12 <josema> ... and considered our role and interactions with other W3C Groups

... and considered our role and interactions with other W3C Groups ←

12:04:24 <josema> ... in order to identify and pose questions to them to help ground their work

... in order to identify and pose questions to them to help ground their work ←

12:04:36 <josema> ... in the reality of eGovernment

... in the reality of eGovernment ←

12:04:58 <josema> ... how to communicate with government officials and practitioners

... how to communicate with government officials and practitioners ←

12:05:16 <josema> ... if we can identify few cases that could show this, we could succeed

... if we can identify few cases that could show this, we could succeed ←

12:05:26 <josema> ... (and make govs save some money)

... (and make govs save some money) ←

12:05:43 <josema> ... discussed one particular use case

... discussed one particular use case ←

12:05:59 <josema> ... "cool URIs don't change vs. government does change"

... "cool URIs don't change vs. government does change" ←

12:06:11 <josema> ... is that a fair reflection?

... is that a fair reflection? ←

12:06:40 <josema> renke: I'd add from SEMIC that some of the projects we have listed there

Unknown renke: I'd add from SEMIC that some of the projects we have listed there ←

12:07:01 <josema> ... could help the eGov IG as case studies

... could help the eGov IG as case studies ←

12:07:11 <josema> ... helping them to improve their solutions

... helping them to improve their solutions ←

12:07:25 <josema> ... we are developing a scorecard idea to improve those

... we are developing a scorecard idea to improve those ←

12:07:48 <josema> ... we are discussing with several projects to find the best solution

... we are discussing with several projects to find the best solution ←

12:08:28 <josema> ... what could help us is a kind of template to describe this

... what could help us is a kind of template to describe this ←

12:08:37 <josema> ... feedback from W3C would be useful in this sense

... feedback from W3C would be useful in this sense ←

12:08:58 <josema> john: some kind of template to capture it?

John Sheridan: some kind of template to capture it? ←

12:09:18 <josema> renke: yes

Unknown renke: yes ←

12:09:33 <josema> john: in this case our role could be to capture your feedback

John Sheridan: in this case our role could be to capture your feedback ←

12:10:07 <josema> ... identify W3C areas that are addressed there and act as a channel to discuss

... identify W3C areas that are addressed there and act as a channel to discuss ←

12:10:16 <josema> ... with the relevant Groups at W3C

... with the relevant Groups at W3C ←

12:10:38 <josema> ... then collect that back and document

... then collect that back and document ←

12:10:52 <josema> ... send back to SEMIC/publish it

... send back to SEMIC/publish it ←

12:11:09 <josema> renke: beyond feedback, give context to other projects

Unknown renke: beyond feedback, give context to other projects ←

12:11:31 <josema> ... so other states working on similar projects could see

... so other states working on similar projects could see ←

12:12:15 <josema> ... maybe also bring people to W3C to discuss them

... maybe also bring people to W3C to discuss them ←

12:13:07 <josema> ?? (Nokia): EU very interested in developing this and funding pilot projects

Lauri Hirvonen (Nokia): EU very interested in developing this and funding pilot projects ←

12:13:12 <josema> ... any of you involved?

... any of you involved? ←

12:14:23 <josema> s/??/Lauri Hirvonen

12:15:01 <josema> ... big discussion on eID, eg. you need it to make your tax declaration online

... big discussion on eID, eg. you need it to make your tax declaration online ←

12:15:08 <josema> ... is that within scope?

... is that within scope? ←

12:15:22 <josema> john: don't think we could add much value to that

John Sheridan: don't think we could add much value to that ←

12:15:30 <josema> ... given our scope and focus

... given our scope and focus ←

12:15:40 <josema> martin: I can reverse the question

Martin Mollema: I can reverse the question ←

12:15:51 <josema> ... and there is relationship with what is going on in EU

... and there is relationship with what is going on in EU ←

12:16:15 <josema> eg. cross-participation, liaisons

eg. cross-participation, liaisons ←

12:16:39 <josema> lauri: several levels of government in Finland, are you take care of all?

Scribe problem: the name 'lauri' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: John Sheridan Unknown renke Martin Mollema Jeffrey Sonstein Amit Parashar Benjamin Nguyen Vagner Diniz Oscar Azanon Esteire Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown lauri: several levels of government in Finland, are you take care of all? ←

12:17:12 <josema> john: yes, we have no choice, given the diversity the government has

John Sheridan: yes, we have no choice, given the diversity the government has ←

12:18:22 <josema> [people agree]

[people agree] ←

12:18:54 <josema> john: if can make that flow of dialogue happen, that would be good

John Sheridan: if can make that flow of dialogue happen, that would be good ←

12:19:02 <josema> ... would it help SEMIC?

... would it help SEMIC? ←

12:19:19 <josema> renke: sounds good to me, I'm happy to go back to IDABC and tell them

Unknown renke: sounds good to me, I'm happy to go back to IDABC and tell them ←

12:19:48 <josema> john: this could be an approach we could bring to other organizations

John Sheridan: this could be an approach we could bring to other organizations ←

12:21:06 <josema> liaisons: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/eGov/ig-charter#coordination

Scribe problem: the name 'liaisons' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: John Sheridan Unknown renke Martin Mollema Jeffrey Sonstein Amit Parashar Benjamin Nguyen Vagner Diniz Oscar Azanon Esteire Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown liaisons: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/eGov/ig-charter#coordination ←

12:21:44 <josema> and some more at: http://www.w3.org/2001/11/StdLiaison

and some more at: http://www.w3.org/2001/11/StdLiaison ←

12:23:51 <josema> josema: two concerns

Unknown josema: two concerns ←

12:24:42 <josema> ... other Group's charters and W3C Membership of participants

... other Group's charters and W3C Membership of participants ←

12:24:43 <josema> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/faq

http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/faq ←

12:26:46 <josema> john: I can also share how I justified the business decision

John Sheridan: I can also share how I justified the business decision ←

12:27:09 <josema> ACTION john sheridan to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members

ACTION john sheridan to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members ←

12:27:09 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - john

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - john ←

12:27:09 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jwonderl, jsherida)

Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jwonderl, jsherida) ←

12:27:20 <josema> ACTION johnsherida to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members

ACTION johnsherida to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members ←

12:27:20 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - johnsherida

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - johnsherida ←

12:27:31 <josema> ACTION jsherida to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members

ACTION jsherida to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members ←

12:27:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members [on John Sheridan - due 2008-10-30].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-14 - Share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members [on John Sheridan - due 2008-10-30]. ←

12:29:25 <josema> josema: very difficult to convince governments because of time commitments issues

Unknown josema: very difficult to convince governments because of time commitments issues ←

12:29:40 <josema> john: this model mentioned above could be of use

John Sheridan: this model mentioned above could be of use ←

12:29:52 <josema> ... connect initiatives this way

... connect initiatives this way ←

12:30:28 <josema> john: we need to make progress on the use cases

John Sheridan: we need to make progress on the use cases ←

12:30:35 <josema> ... before adjourning today

... before adjourning today ←

12:30:50 <josema> ... I can share some of my work at W3C

... I can share some of my work ←

12:31:05 <josema> s/at W3C//

12:31:24 <josema> [john introduces Show Us a Better Way]

[john introduces Show Us a Better Way] ←

12:31:51 <josema> ->http://www.showusabetterway.co.uk/ Competition Web Site

->http://www.showusabetterway.co.uk/ Competition Web Site ←

12:32:11 <josema> ... 100+ ideas that are very good and need more review

... 120+ ideas that are very good and need more review ←

12:32:56 <josema> s/100/120

12:33:28 <josema> ... two key observations:

... two key observations: ←

12:33:51 <josema> ... only 20 data sets to make these ideas work

... only 20 data sets to make these ideas work ←

12:34:11 <josema> ... huge overlap, in particular: education, health, transport

... huge overlap, in particular: education, health, transport ←

12:34:35 <josema> ... about how the gov can support the citizen to make a better choice

... about how the gov can support the citizen to make a better choice ←

12:34:55 <josema> ... public housing, best transportation to go from A to B

... public housing, best transportation to go from A to B ←

12:35:52 <josema> ... best place to send kid to school

... best place to send kid to school ←

12:36:20 <josema> ... there's also around performance information to get to a service ??

... there's also around performance information to get to a service ?? ←

12:36:58 <josema> ... stroke me the disconnection between the citizen and the information the government produces

... stroke me the disconnection between the citizen and the information the government produces ←

12:37:11 <josema> ... if we could surface performance information in a useful way

... if we could surface performance information in a useful way ←

12:37:27 <josema> ... we can support citizens much better

... we can support citizens much better ←

12:37:55 <josema> ... we can now assure based on the competition that much more people had the same idea

... we can now assure based on the competition that much more people had the same idea ←

12:38:04 <josema> ... around this topic

... around this topic ←

12:40:16 <josema> ... a data reuse use case on this topic could be very useful

... a data reuse use case on this topic could be very useful ←

12:40:30 <josema> martin: if you use the approach of asking the citizens what they want

Martin Mollema: if you use the approach of asking the citizens what they want ←

12:41:27 <josema> ... similar to what jeffs proposed this morning, then how to present this to the Groups ??

... similar to what jeffs proposed this morning, then how to present this to the Groups ?? ←

12:41:47 <josema> ... you try to identify sth that is a real problem, using a real problem as an example

... you try to identify sth that is a real problem, using a real problem as an example ←

12:42:18 <josema> ... you need action to solve it, if you get only academic questions then that's not useful

... you need action to solve it, if you get only academic questions then that's not useful ←

12:42:49 <josema> oscar: what is the process of prioritization of services the government puts online?

Oscar Azanon Esteire: what is the process of prioritization of services the government puts online? ←

12:43:11 <josema> ... put up there what is possible, what it seems is useful for citizens, what others have done

... put up there what is possible, what it seems is useful for citizens, what others have done ←

12:43:24 <josema> ... but this topic itself is something not usual

... but this topic itself is something not usual ←

12:44:14 <josema> john: why is easier to pick a restaurant or plan your holidays

John Sheridan: why is easier to pick a restaurant or plan your holidays ←

12:44:22 <josema> ... than to pick a school for your kids?

... than to pick a school for your kids? ←

12:44:53 <josema> ... if we surface performance data, people will use it in different useful ways

... if we surface performance data, people will use it in different useful ways ←

12:45:21 <josema> ... will allow to have a better view of the information

... will allow to have a better view of the information ←

12:46:02 <josema> ... one clear example, two big Web sites on health where people discuss

... one clear example, two big Web sites on health where people discuss ←

12:46:20 <josema> ... one run by gov (@@) and one by charity (@@@)

... one run by gov (@@) and one by charity (@@@) ←

12:49:52 <josema> ... different type of engagement, discussions, and big debate is who is doing better job

... different type of engagement, discussions, and big debate is who is doing better job ←

12:49:52 <josema> ... some people feel less moderated in a non-gov forum

... some people feel less moderated in a non-gov forum ←

12:49:59 <josema> ... making the performance available make this services work better, too

... making the performance information available make this services work better, too ←

12:50:01 <josema> s/performance/performance information

12:50:52 <josema> [scribe got disconnected from network]

[scribe got disconnected from network] ←

12:52:38 <john> q?

John Sheridan: q? ←

12:52:49 <OCR> yep

Scribe problem: the name 'OCR' does not match any of the 11 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: John Sheridan Unknown renke Martin Mollema Jeffrey Sonstein Amit Parashar Benjamin Nguyen Vagner Diniz Oscar Azanon Esteire Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown OCR: yep ←

12:53:31 <josema> RRSAgent, pointer?

RRSAgent, pointer? ←

12:53:31 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc#T12-53-31

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc#T12-53-31 ←

12:54:25 <josema> john: I see many potential benefits

John Sheridan: I see many potential benefits ←

12:55:04 <josema> ... it's all about data reuse

... it's all about data reuse ←

12:55:38 <josema> ... how do you write the business case of having the gov exposing data but not charging for its reuse

... how do you write the business case of having the gov exposing data but not charging for its reuse ←

12:55:53 <josema> ... even when the benefit is clearly connected to what the government is

... even when the benefit is clearly connected to what the government is ←

12:56:04 <josema> ... this is a big concern to policy makers

... this is a big concern to policy makers ←

12:56:23 <josema> oscar: what's the cost of not doing so?

Oscar Azanon Esteire: what's the cost of not doing so? ←

12:56:59 <josema> john: back to the stds point of view

John Sheridan: back to the stds point of view ←

12:57:24 <josema> ... lots of data published already but hidden by proprietary format

... lots of data published already but hidden by proprietary format ←

12:57:38 <josema> oscar: example: eurostat in excel format

Oscar Azanon Esteire: example: eurostat in excel format ←

12:58:25 <josema> martin: some kind of adapter for relational DBs to expose data on the Web?

Martin Mollema: some kind of adapter for relational DBs to expose data on the Web? ←

12:58:32 <josema> oscar: DBPedia

Oscar Azanon Esteire: DBPedia ←

12:59:01 <josema> ->http://dbpedia.org/ DBPedia

->http://dbpedia.org/ DBPedia ←

12:59:19 <josema> martin: information has been probably lost in the process if that's in Excel format

Martin Mollema: information has been probably lost in the process if that's in Excel format ←

12:59:32 <john> for an example see: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/companywindingupandbankruptcy.htm

John Sheridan: for an example see: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/companywindingupandbankruptcy.htm ←

12:59:45 <josema> ... how it can be benefitial for govs to present data in a way that is useful for citizens, public servants,

... how it can be benefitial for govs to present data in a way that is useful for citizens, public servants, ←

13:00:06 <josema> ... things like statistical data

... things like statistical data ←

13:00:34 <josema> ... how do we create a useful environment in which standards can help achieve this goal

... how do we create a useful environment in which standards can help achieve this goal ←

13:01:00 <josema> ... probably most out there, needs just to be put together

... probably most out there, needs just to be put together ←

13:01:35 <josema> ... this could be discussed with specific use cases with other Groups

... this could be discussed with specific use cases with other Groups ←

13:01:52 <josema> john: that's one example, best example could be something like

John Sheridan: that's one example, best example could be something like ←

13:02:15 <josema> ... school performance data available in proprietary format, not easy to reuse

... school performance data available in proprietary format, not easy to reuse ←

13:02:29 <josema> ... from W3C side say that open formats is better choice

... from W3C side say that open formats is better choice ←

13:02:53 <josema> ... from govs, if I do so, that will help make my citizens make the choice easier

... from govs, if I do so, that will help make my citizens make the choice easier ←

13:02:57 <Zakim> +owen

Zakim IRC Bot: +owen ←

13:03:26 <john> another example: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/performancetables/

John Sheridan: another example: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/performancetables/ ←

13:05:13 <josema> [john recaps]

[john recaps] ←

13:05:24 <josema> RRSAgent, pointer?

RRSAgent, pointer? ←

13:05:24 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc#T13-05-24

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc#T13-05-24 ←

13:06:03 <josema> RRSAgent, draft minutes

RRSAgent, draft minutes ←

13:06:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema ←

13:07:34 <josema> john: for tomorrow: focus on use cases on one side, good practices on the other and match them

John Sheridan: for tomorrow: focus on use cases on one side, good practices on the other and match them ←

13:07:52 <josema> ... and agree on having some of those written up and done by the Group Members

... and agree on having some of those written up and done by the Group Members ←

13:08:19 <josema> martin: we should settle that we want to be the connector between government organizations and W3C Groups

Martin Mollema: we should settle that we want to be the connector between government organizations and W3C Groups ←

13:08:36 <josema> ... we act as intermediate, too

... we act as intermediate, too ←

13:08:52 <john> q?

John Sheridan: q? ←

13:09:05 <josema> oscar: propose to make a list of deliverables and plan

Oscar Azanon Esteire: propose to make a list of deliverables and plan ←

13:09:26 <josema> ... roadmap for the next months and action people

... roadmap for the next months and action people ←

13:09:32 <josema> [all agree]

[all agree] ←

13:10:09 <josema> martin: see if we have enough for the 4 subject areas mentioned today

Martin Mollema: see if we have enough for the 4 subject areas mentioned today ←

13:10:23 <josema> ... focus on creating the roadmap to create the deliverables

... focus on creating the roadmap to create the deliverables ←

13:10:39 <josema> ... more important than the details

... more important than the details ←

13:10:58 <josema> john: we'll start with PLING joint meeting, then work on this as proposed

John Sheridan: we'll start with PLING joint meeting, then work on this as proposed ←

13:11:43 <josema> [ALL to think about these areas and prepare for the discussion tomorrow]

[ALL to think about these areas and prepare for the discussion tomorrow] ←

13:11:49 <josema> [ADJOURNED]

[ADJOURNED] ←

13:11:58 <josema> RRSAgent, draft minutes

RRSAgent, draft minutes ←

13:11:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema ←

13:13:14 <Zakim> -owen

Zakim IRC Bot: -owen ←

13:13:17 <Zakim> -Esterel

Zakim IRC Bot: -Esterel ←

13:13:19 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()3:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: T&S_EGOV()3:00AM has ended ←

13:13:19 <Zakim> Attendees were Esterel, klaus, owen

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Esterel, klaus, owen ←

14:21:38 <josema> zakim, bye

(No events recorded for 68 minutes)

zakim, bye ←

14:22:00 <josema> RRSAgent, bye

RRSAgent, bye ←

14:22:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←

Formatted by CommonScribe